by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
AirForce Texan big bore.
This report covers:
- Mr. Hollowpoint
- The test
- Two important things
- Bullet seating
- Shot count
- 255-grain bullet target 2
- 300-grain bullet group 1
- 300-grain group 2
- 350-grain bullet
- 365-grain bullet
- Discussion
- Summary
Today I finally report on my AirForce Texan .458 that we looked at last in September. Some reader asked me to try different commercial bullets in my rifle, and while I was talking to Ton Jones at AirForce he said they really like the bullets Mr. Hollowpoint, Robert Vogel, makes. So I contacted him and ordered a selection of bullets to test.
Mr. Hollowpoint
Robert was on a hog hunt when I contacted him, but when he returned we communicated and he generously sent me a sampling of some of his .45 caliber bullets. I asked for them to be sized .459, because my Texan’s bore is .458. He said he understood and would try his best to satisfy my needs.
If you get nothing else from today’s report get this. The best accuracy with lead bullets comes with bullets that are sized exactly the diameter of the bore, measured from the depth of one groove to the depth of the groove on the opposite side, or up to one-thousandth of an inch larger. In my experience, one-thousandth of an inch larger is best.
Because Mr. Hollowpoint casts his own bullets, he can control the sizes, up to the limits of his molds. And I have to tell you this — I have been casting lead bullets for over a half-century and I can see that Robert Volgle does excellent work. Not all who cast bullets do. Many people cast hard lead bullets because the antimony that hardens the lead also makes the lead flow better. But these are bullets so soft a thumbnail can scratch them. That’s what you want for a big bore airgun.
By maintaining a tight watch on the temperature of the lead and the bullet molds during casting good bullets can also be made from soft lead, and it’s obvious that Robert Vogel knows what he is doing. Every bullet mold has a “personality” of its own, which means you have to learn what they like before you can do good work.
One last observation. Casting hollowpoint bullets involves extra steps that many bullet casters won’t take the time to do. Not only do the bullet molds have to remain at a constant temperature — the hollowpoint pin also has to, and that’s not a given.
Robert sent an me assortment of bullets to try, and I’m not going to rush things. I selected four of them to start with. We will refer to them by their nominal weights in grains. There is a 255, a 300 a 350 and a 365.
The test
I shot 5-shot groups for this test because of the amount of air being used by the rifle. I shot off a concrete bench with the rifle rested in a long sandbag. The rifle is scoped with a UTG 6-24X56 SWAT scope.
It was good to get behind the Texan once more.
Two important things
When I visited Ton in September he reminded me of two important things. The first is to always seat the bullets deep in the Texan’s breech or they will tilt in the bore. That destroys accuracy. The second thing is to adjust the rifle’s power adjuster for each bullet you shoot. It’s best to find one good bullet and set the rifle up for it, rather than to hop from bullet to bullet. It’s the same as for a pellet rifle that likes certain pellets, only with the Texan it’s more sophisticated because you are adjusting the powerplant for each bullet you shoot.
I did one of those things in today’s test but not the other. I seated each bullet deep into the rifling like Ton said, but I did not change the power adjuster. Until I find the bullet I’m searching for there is no sense adjusting the power for each bullet. I will waste all my samples just trying! So let’s look at bullet seating first.
Bullet seating
I started shooting the 255-grain bullet first. Shots one and two overlapped each other on the paper, and then shot three landed 1.5-inches lower. I wondered what caused that and then remembered my lesson from Ton in seating each bullet. So bullet 4 I seated properly and it went back to bullets 1 and 2. Lesson remembered! Let’s look at what I’m saying.
Bullets one and two overlapped, but bullet 3 dropped because it wasn’t seated properly. Bullet 4 was then seated correctly and went back to bullets 1 and 2. Group measures 1.991-inches between centers at 50 yards, with the top three in 0.516-inches.
The 255-grain bullet lies loose in the loading trough. Whatever you do, don’t close the breech with the bullet laying out like this!
Here I’ve pushed the bullet into the breech half-heartedly. Don’t do this! the rear of the bullet is tilted up. I have exaggerated the angle for you to see. But I can feel a much smaller tilt when it clicks down straight. I press the bullet down and then in with my thumb.
All bullets do not seat in the barrel to the same depth, but each different type of bullet does seat into the rifling to the same depth every time when the same thumb pressure is applied. And it takes a LOT of thumb pressure! The rifling straightens the bullet, aligning it with the axis of the bore and setting up the rifle for the best accuracy.
This is how deep the 255-grain bullet seats when it is done right.
Seating the fourth bullet right is what caused it to return to where the first two bullets strike the target at 50 yards in that first target. And here is BB’s tip to Texan owners. Press the base of the bullet down and in to seat it correctly.
Shot count
I remembered refilling the Texan after 3 shots in the past, but that was in 2016 when I was shooting at 100 yards. This time I fired 4 times on the first targbet and there was still 2,300 psi remaining from a 3,000 psi fill. So, on the second target I fired the rifle 5 times on a fill. That is very good air management for a rifle in the Texan’s power range. I haven’t chronographed these bullets yet, but suffice to say we are getting something in the low 300 foot-pounds range with a bullet this light.
255-grain bullet target 2
I just shot the second target and did nothing special. Just 5 shots, one after the other. This time the group was more open, measuring 2.388-inches between centers. I still think this 255-grain bullet is worth spending some time on, but for now I moved on.
The second group of 255-grain bullets is more open and larger. Five shots in 2.388-inches at 50 yards.
300-grain bullet group 1
Next to be tested was the 300-grain bullet. This one has narrow bands that the rifling engages It seats easier and a little deeper. The first 5 shots landed in 1.258-inches at 50 yards. Shot number 4 is the stray and the other four bullets are in 0.504-inches between centers. Wow! Now, THAT is a group!
Five 300-grain Mr. Hollowpoint bullets are in 1.258-inches at 50 yards with 4 in 0.504-inches.
This is a bullet worth pursuing! And I can tell that the power adjuster is set almost optimal for this one. It probably needs to come out (less hammer pressure) just a little. A second group might tell us more.
300-grain group 2
The second 50-yard group of five 300-grain bullets is also small, measuring 1.232-inches between centers. Three of the bullets are in 0.349-inches. This bullet really wants to shoot!
Five 300-grain bullets are in 1.232-inches at 50 yards, with three of them in 0.349-inches.
350-grain bullet
Next to be tried was the 350-grain bullet. Five of them (still on a single 5-shot fill) went into a vertical 3.714-inch group at 50 yards. Given the 300-grain bullet’s performance I think I’ll leave this one alone.
Five 350-grain bullets strung vertically in this 3.714-inch group.
365-grain bullet
The final bullet to be tested was the 365-grainer. The Texan put five of them into 4.857-inches at 50 yards. It was another vertical group and the worst one of the test.
The Texan put five 365-grain bullets into this vertical group that measures 4.857-inches between centers. It’s the largest group of the test.
Discussion
In light of the 300-grain bullet’s performance, I think it is the one to pursue. The 255-grainer is also good and shows promise to be even better, but the 300-grain groups tell me they are the bullet the Texan likes the best out of the ones I tested — so far. I have one more Mr. Hollowpoint bullet to test — a 333-grainer. I also want to try adjusting the power setting to optimize the rifle for the 300-grain bullet. If it turns out the way I imagine, that will be the bullet to order in quantity.
Of course I also need to test the velocity of this bullet, so we can find out the power. No sense doing that until I’m sure the power adjustment is set to the optimum. And then if this bullet warrants it I will shoot it at 100 yards.
I did measure the diameter of the 300-grainer, though, and my caliper says it is 0.4570- to 0.4595-inches across at the base. Soft lead bullets usually measure out of round after they have been handled awhile. But their softness squishes them into all corners of the bore, which is where the accuracy and velocity come from.
Summary
That’s it for this report. But as you can see, we aren’t finished with the .458 Texan just yet.
B.B.
Why do Airforce guns look like a cross between a Buck Roger’s Ray Gun and a SupperSoaker Water Cannon?
Weirdest looking things ever……..
-Y
Yogi
So people will ask why. 😉
Because the highly efficient in line valve system puts everything in line. Pressure cylinder, valve, barrel. Then they pretty much attach a handle on the lower side and a scope rail on the upper side. It’s not built for cool looks, but the design dictates the shape.
Too many airguns try to look like a firearm, and sacrifice performance because of it.
Mel,
+1
Yogi,
Sometimes ugly is only because we are used to the shape of what we consider the norm. In this case airgun manufacturers were trying to copy arms that were powered by explosive charges at the end of the barrel. Airforce started with a blank sheet of paper.
Dan
Yogi,
Form follows function.
Not the weirdest looking things, after shooting one, you will want one.
the design is actually a couple of hundred years old, it is a modern version of Girardoni air rifle from the 1700’s.
With a slow twist barrel, for round balls, and the side loading magazine, a retro Texan would be very cool to own.
Ton Jones, are you up to the challenge?
Ian.
Can you imagine showing up to a period correct black powder shoot with your Rendezvous duds on, and pulling out one of those? Maybe kind of a “resto-rod” Giradoni? Some faux cast iron cover over a modern bottle? The ability to shoot round ball out of the tube, and still load slugs one at a time for hunting?
I would rather have the ray gun.
-Y
Yogi,
Me too, but it ain’t real.
RidgeRunner,
A Ray Gun isn’t real unless it’s a gun owned by a guy named Ray. ;^)
Michael
Michael
That would be a Ray’s gun then. Not a Ray gun.
🙂
Michael and Gunfun1,
Hey! I am the class clown around here!
RR
Oh no, no, no! You can’t be that all the time!
We got to share here on the blog. 🙂
GF1, Good catch!
Micheal,
I get real worried when GF1 starts to correct punctuation and spelling,……. 🙁
Chris
But he was right! Hey, if you’re correct, you’re correct. :^)
Chris
I told you I’m just mess’n with you all with my spell’n and grammar.
I got to keep yun on your toes. 😉
Michael
🙂
Yogi,
A ray-gun would be nice but I have my heart set on a light-saber 🙂
I keep on looking at the AirForce products – something about the design that attracts me and puts me off at the same time. Have no idea what it is.
If I see a good deal for a .22 or a .25 I might go for it. I really would be more interested if they were regulated.
As to your requirements for a PCP… sounds like a custom job – good that you didn’t set a price limit LOL!
Take care!
Hank
Hank,
AirForce does not sell them that way, but they can be regulated. The truth is you do not really need it. You would be surprised how many shots along the top of the curve you will get. This thing is an air hog. You can still get five good shots.
The secret is tuning. You find the optimum fill pressure and adjust for the pellet. I had a Talon SS in .177 that had a fill pressure of 1800 PSI and would give me over twenty good shots before I would refill.
RR
The more you mess with pcp guns the more you find that out to be true.
You have to shoot and figure out that working range of fill pressure.
RR,
Understand what you are saying, know about finding the optimum fill and riding the flat of the curve – did that with my Maximus before I added the HuMa.
Find that if I to tune to the “knee” of the curve (@ 95 – 97% velocity) I get the best efficiency and lowest ES.
I get 5 magazines (70 shots) on my .177 HW 100 on a single fill (standard reservoir, 200psi) and the ES is usually 8-10 fps across the whole fill. My .22 Impact gets over 200 shots with the 480 cc bottle and a 250 bar fill. …Like regulators for that.
Hank
BB,
An Air Force, a Texan, a big bore, heavy slugs and 50 yards all in one report,…….. it does not get better than that! 🙂 I see you made some extra use of your day at the range. (same day as the Cayden?)
I understand the need to seat the bullet as deep as possible and square in the bore. I suppose this is not the same as loading a break barrel and “deep seating” with a pen or allan wrench type deep seating? I guess I do not understand the Air Force loading/breaching chain of events fully. No doubt that I can look that up.
I am still on my first cup of coffee (so bear with me), but as I understand, you took no more than 5 shots per fill, yes? What was the fill? (edit: 3000 🙁 )
Looking forwards to more. All groups are minute of deer at any rate,… 😉
Chris
Chris,
Yes. Same range day.
Yes, 5 shots per fill to 3,000 psi. I mentioned it once in the report.
BB
Chris
Curious to know if you have had pellet guns that got better accuracy when pellets were deep seated? A few years back it was mentioned more often than it is today or so it seems to me. I do use an Allen wrench to deep seat pellets in my accurate Beeman AR2078A but it is due to chamber and bolt feed. Sometimes a pellet type requires a pen or pellet seater due to tight fit. But accuracy? Velocity is a different subject.
Deck
Deck,
Since getting back into air guns, I have not had a break barrel. I did have a TX200 and an LGU, both under levers,.. so not the easiest to do there. My shooters now are a Red Wolf .25, .25 M-rod and a .22 Maximus but have never tried deep seating pellets in any of them.
Chris
Chris,
Sometime you maybe should get a quality breakbarrel for plinking, just for the experience. Just a thought.
Michael
Michael,
I won’t say never, but the under levers I had (TX200 and LGU) are just a different way to charge the spring. They are still springers.
Chris
Chris,
The advantage of underlevers is they are usually less hold sensitive than breakbarrels. But a Weihrauch HW50s is 2.5 pounds lighter than a TX200, cocks with 5 pounds less effort, and is MUCH easier to load. It also comes with iron sights.
IMO breakbarrels are the best plinkers of the pellet gun world, and I own a TX200 and an HW77, so I have shot excellent underlevers, too.
Michael
Chris
I agree with Michael 200%.
🙂
Is that Cloud9’s RAW in the background? Nice looker! A 4500 Psi tank would probably double the shot count, wouldn’t it?
Rk,
I wondered how long it would be before someone spotted it! Soon you’ll have a closer look at the same rifle.
BB
BB,
I have given some thought to that, but I am not sure the frame will fit the .357. I will have to ask Rachel.
Can’t wait!
Rk,
I have the carbon fiber tank on my HM1000X. I get about 16 shots out of my .357 before it drops off of the regulator. The recommended maximum is 3250 PSI.
I am certain he gets way more than that from that tube. How many shots do you need?
My RAW TM1000 has a 3500psi titanium reservoir. It is shooting .177 caliber pellets at 12 ft-lbs. I get over 150 shots from a fill before it falls off the regulator. I actually lost count last time I was trying to see how low it would go. Since I only need 60 shots for a match and then perhaps 30 to sight-in before the match, I have plenty of margin.
At least one more.
BB,
Does John McCaslin have any plans to make the rest of his product line side cockers? The tinkers have been turning his air rifles into side cockers for years. I am seriously considering doing such with my Talon SS. It would help to stiffen the frames to do such. It would also greatly simplify the machining. Both the Edge and the Texan are.
RR,
I think John is concentrating on other things right now.
BB
RR
Why a side cocker on the small bore AirForce guns?
Because they are shooting bullets?
The small bore pellet shooting AirForce guns are very easy to load and are very accurate.
Why the side lever? The only thing I can think of is because bullets are hard to load.
Unless you are one of those who just have to have rapid fire, you can own three AirForce air rifles and just about cover everything you would like to do with a PCP.
With the Edge, you would have a superb plinker out to about 25 yards. An excellent choice for mini-sniping.
With the TalonP carbine you have an excellent small game hunting platform.
With the Texan LSS with carbon fiber bottle you can go BIG.
What is also nice is you can swap barrels, tanks, strikers, etc. and build just about anything you could think you might want. A whole lot cheaper than what FX is going to charge you.
I agree on the 3 guns for Airforce, but not everyone wants to or is capable of affording 3 guns.
With that said, on co2, the 12 inch talon SS gives about 10ftlbs in .22, and is an excellent plinker with an extremely high shot count.
With a standard tank, it’s about 20ftlbs, and an excellent small game hunter.
With a high flow tank, you step that up another 10+ ftlbs…
I have never ventured into the big bore category..
Ian
Ian,
Put a 24-inch barrel on that SS and it goes up to 44 foot-pounds with no other modifications.
BB
You know, I find it absolutely incredible how much time and money is wasted in the advertising department of Pyramyd AIR. In recent times they have flooded my email inbox with sometimes five or more emails a day advertising one of their products.
For quite some time I would just delete them, but after a bit I became very annoyed with them and started unsubscribing them. And unsubscribing them. And unsubscribing them. It was to the point that I had had enough. I went to their website and sent them a very negative communication, telling them I no longer wanted any of their emails and I seriously doubted I would be doing business with them in the future.
That worked for a couple of days. They are back now. I guess Val is next.
I got the latest PA catalog in the mail yesterday. Now that, I DO enjoy. It is easier to discover more products than on the website. More enjoyable too.
B.B. – I couldn’t help but notice the Diana K98 PCP was labeled as a “Tom’s PIck”. Was a little surprised by that. I recall your review wasn’t as favorable, noting a less-than-optimal power curve. Might be a bit of agressive marketing there.
StatboardRower
StarboardRower,
Yeah, I didn’t pick the K98 PCP. I picked the underlever springer K98. Must have made a slip! 🙂
BB
BB,
I doubt it. They probably have quite a few of those and your name sells.
RR,
What?,….. a vote got switched? No way. Nothing to see here. Move on. Have a nice day. 😉
Chris
RR- I definitely understand the deleting e-mails thing! Somehow I ended up getting, from both sides of the political game, about 30 or 40 emails a day begging for money to support their election runs. Between the PA ads and the political beggars I would wear down my phone battery just deleting them every day!
Bruce
B.B.,
I really enjoy watching Mr. Hollowpoint’s you tube vides. The sections where he shoots big ice objects are dramatic, and the parts where he sits on his sofa and his beautiful cats walk back and forth are great, too; he’s a funny guy. I encourage folks here to check them out.
Michael
BB
Have you said what scope you have on the Texan?
And what magnification are you shooting at.
At 50 yards that Texan is like 15 yards with other small and big bore air guns.
The Texan should shoout very good groups at 50 yards.
I would expect the same or better than my .25 Condor SS. Or do people not shoot the Texan’s at long ranges? Or is the bullet projectile hindering the Texan’s performance.
I still want my airgun to be a small bore pellet shooter. I just don’t see the accuraccy I’m after with a bullet shooting air gun.
I was going to mention this a little while back and forgot. But I got reminded by today’s report.
The stem broke in my Condor SS bottle. I can say I was surprised. I have had 3 AirForce guns and no problems at out of them at all.
But here is something. The only thing I could find was just buying replacement bottle to get it up shooting fast again.
But I remembered I bought a Co2 adapter from PA to try one of the 13 cubic inch regulated HPA bottles on my Condor SS. Well guess what it had the same valve stem and top hat that my Condor SS has.
So I emptied the bottle and changed the valve stem and top hat and was shooting again in 10 minutes. And yes the bottle was still holding air even with the broken valve stem.
And my hold overs on my scope waa still dead on. From what I see the Co2 adapter top hat and valve stem from AirForce is exactly the same as what comes with the .25 Condor SS.
At least it saved me some money and time. That’s what I’m talking about.
GF1,
Give AirForce a call and get a new stem. It will not be much. Hopefully you will get Rachel. She is awesome to work with.
RR
Like I said got it fixed the day it happened. I was just lucky that I had that AirForce Co2 adapter and I remembered it looking the same the best I could tell.
Either way I was going to check that adapter and if it fit I was putting in to try it out.
But ok thanks I will remember to ask for Rachel. Now that I know I will ask for her if I need help. Thanks.
GF1,
It looks the same, but is rated the same? Co2 vs high pressure.
Chris
Chris
The spring is different. Well mine was anyway.
I used the Condor SS bottle valve spring.
Glad you brought that up.
And to tell you the truth the valve stem is pretty thin in places. But yes they are identical. The way it’s made is that both the Condor SS valve and the Co2 adapter valve from what I see is they was thinking about flow.
I have the broken valve stem from my Condor SS somewhere. When I find it I will post a picture so you can see how thin the wall is. And remember the top hat keeps getting hit by the striker every shot. So its like a hammer hitting a nail every shot. Just like any other pcp. But the other pcp’s don’t have a hollow valve stem like the AirForce guns have.
From what I have seen with AirForce guns the valve stem is probably the weak link in thier system. Pretty thin stuff on the valve stem no doubt.
Chris
I’m posting here.
Of course righ tnow I don’t know where I put the broken valve stem.
Mine broke in the exact same spot.
And my original top hat was set at the factory setting how I got the gun as new.
So if it was hammering like BB said. It came that way from the factory with my gun. And another note. My spring pressure adjustment on the power wheel is only set at the number 2 setting. What that means is very low pressure.
Hmm and I thought I was the only one that has had this happen. Why would I think that.
But here’s the link to his blog back then.
/blog/2007/04/abusing-your-condor/
GF1,
I read it. BB sure wrote short blogs back then. 😉 Looking forwards to hearing more from you as I have not researched the AF guns much and know nothing of any mods. that can be done. I think I would skip that one in BB’s article! 😉
Like Hank wrote, I am strangely drawn to them, yet dislike them in some unknown way (paraphrased there). I do like/prefer function over form (the idea of it) so I am still on the fence about them. Weak links, especially old ones that should have been changed a long time ago,.. are a total turn off.
Chris
Chris, GF,
U guys have to check that blog again and see the comments real quick.
Fish
Fish
You need to check the blog and comments real quick again.
gf, you still gotta check that ‘abusing your condor’ blog comments, or u’ll miss the worst joke of ur life.
Fish
Read what I responded to your comment on that blog.
Did you figure out what ate up means?
Other readers on the blog know. And I didn’t even cuss.
😉
🙂
This Texas seems to be a nice rifle, but I have a couple of 30S/R7 questions today.
I saw several 30S/R7 photos with Williams aperture sights. Which one works better on that springer, FP-AG-TK or FP-GR-TK?
Regardless of quality, I believe every break barrel springer comes with — or, in time, develops — a little barrel droop. How do you make an aperture rear sight work on a 30S with barrel droop?
Fish
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_sMM2YqPt9-M/S3RFH6w3gkI/AAAAAAAABlU/e-xiZycKgnI/s800/IMG_3183.JPG
Fish
Why do you think the HW30 has barrel droop?
what if it had?
Fish
Don’t worry about it until you prove it is truly happening.
I’m very big on disagreeing about what people call barrel droop.
You tell me why you think that way?
And ok let’s just get to the point.
Shoot a aperature sight and tell me if you can tell it has barrel droop.
And how you determined that.
gf,
my both 27s had barrel droop. the iron sights on the barrel were not effected of course, and i could work around the issue with the scoped one.
i ‘think’ aperture sights would be good with fixed barrels only, or i’m missing something here…
fish
Fish
You told me nothing.
What distance? What did you do with your sights to get the gun to shoot? What weight pellet was you shooting? What velocity did the gun shoot at?
Low velocity will look like droop at given distances.
Let’s eliminate some variables before you ask a question.
gf,
the problem is it think i know the answer, and i don’t like it. 🙂 if the breakbarrel had barrel droop, i don’t think the aperture rear sight would work. I was just wondering if there was a way to align it with the front sight on a drooped barrel. i don’t have answers to your reasonable questions as this was more of a supposing inquiry than an issue on hand.
fish.
Fish
The only reason it wouldn’t work is if the sight didn’t have enough adjustment for the distance your shooting.
Or did I miss something?
gf,
i think the issue would be the angle more than the length of adjustment on the rear sight. the peep hole wouldn’t be looking through an imaginary line in the middle of the front globe sight if the barrel happened to droop – the sights wouldn’t line up, the angle would be crooked. i mean you cannot draw a horizontal line that starts from your eye, goes through the peep hole, and enters into the front globe right in the center and leaves the front globe right in the center as well.
fish
Fish
Stop imagining.
If you cant adjust the sight to hit your aim point there is something going on.
So what are you going to do if you want to keep that gun?
I’ll hope my eyes will work with the sights on the barrel forever, or install a scope on it. still, i don’t think it will be accurate with the aperture sight with a barrel droop.
Fish
Well let’s do this.
Once you test it let us know what happens
I’m always interested in learning something new.
the reason i’m asking here is not to have an expensive test.
gf,
i’m joking here, man. giving u a hard time. look, I deleted the tr5 comment.
🙂
Fish
Ok but I still want to know what happens when you try what we are talking about with the peep sight.
Your barrel will have to have some serious droop to not work with a peep sight. You will be amazed what your eyes will do.
Fish,
IF the rifle actually had barrel droop, speaking theoretically, YOU just have to lower the height of your front sight. I mounted a Williams FP-AG on my Father’s Hatsan 60 and we have not had any problems. Although BB has written a lot about barrel droop, it is mostly with scopes that the problem becomes noticeable.
If you keep looking for problems you run into Paralysis by Analysis. One of these days you will just have to take a leap of faith and plunk down your cash for whatever you finally settled on based on your research and belief that you have built up. And then have to live with the consequences. No one airgun can satisfy the entire range that’s why it’s rare to only find one airgun in the closet.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Amen to that.
Chris
chris, u’re way 2 convincing. don’t tell me u r not getting commissions from pa. 😉
🙂
Fish,
Yup,.. just retired. Lambo in the drive!
Chris
u don’t want a lambo. they depreciate like melons as soon as they touch the asphalt in front of the dealer. 🙂
Fish
So what. I would still be driving a Lamborghini no matter how much it depreciates.
And if can afford to buy one then I’m probably not going to be worried about money. 🙂
buy a used lambo. they are cheap.
let me also give u a tip about rich people. they WORRY about their money – a lot! they make wise decisions with their $s. they don’t throw their money on the street or bury it into the asphalt. rich people spend their money on real classics & antiques instead. u buy one for a million today, ten years later it’s worth ten millions at least. about a few decades ago, some of the below were sold for a few hundred thousands only. buying brand new fancy looking this and that with loans while trying to keep a credit score is a sad problem of middle class. 🙂
https://www.automobilemag.com/news/top-10-most-expensive-classic-vintage-cars-auction-2018/
it’s like buying air rifles. buy a cheap potential oldie today and it’ll gain value in time.
you can buy a brand new futuristic synthetic stock bolt action centerfire from a mainstream shop, or find yourself an old surplus rifle in good condition. today they might worth the same, but which one will worth more a couple of decades later?
u will never see me buying a hatsan or gamo, but let’s say if i find a 22 or a 23 in good condition, i will buy one. they will just gain value from now on, maybe not necessarily much, but still some.
BB, let’s write a report titled potentially future antiques and list a few rifles on market today…
Fish
I turned muscle cars for a long long time. I started very young. I know all about getting something that will be something wanted by others. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you don’t.
But a Lambo is out of my range. I wish I could turn some of those high end super cars.
If I could I would be very rich or dead right now.
Besides I’m to old for that ball game. I want mellow easy living right now.
Oh andi knew you wouldn’t stay on subject long. 😉
gf,
yes, yes, muscle cars! Which Mustang and Charger would be smarter purchases? The ones in the movie Bullitt, or the brand new ones in the market today?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJZ-BHBKyos
you probably can run an old ford falcon jumping on your one hand. it would be way much smarter purchase than a brand new shinny mustang with plastics all over, ecoboost, 10 speed auto or chinese made manual transmission. the falcon will gain value everyday, but the brand new mustang will only lose it’s value in time.
You really don’t have to be rich to make good decisions money wise.
the second hand lambos can be pretty cheap by the way. the ones from 80s 90s that were not heavily computerized would work wonders in the hands of a talented mechanic.
Fish
I would pick the old Bullet.
And my first car I bought before I even turned 16 was a black 64 Falcon Sprint with red interior. It had the Hi Po 289 with a 4 speed and posi rear end with 4.11 gears. It was a special order 11 to 1 compression engine with a solid lifter cam. That little 2 and 3/4 inch stroke crank seen many 8,000+ rpm shifts. It wouldn’t die.
But yep if anybody wants to donate some old muscle cars to me they are more than welcomed.
I’ll take them if nobody else wants them. 🙂
u see, u can throw 40 grands on a brand new mustang or spend 40 grands to build an old falcon. twenty years later, which one will worth 5 grands, and which one might very well worth 250 grands? u know what i mean.
Fish
I believe that only a certian few new cars will be worth anything in 25 more years.
But the old muscle cars that are left by then will be worth way more.
They for sure was more simple back then. I hot rodded the old and new. I’ll take the old.
BB & GF,
To stick to the subject, which new airguns are going to become valueable collectibles one day? I really would love to read a report on that, which also asks the readers’ input…
Fish.
Fish,
I heard you the first time. I tried that once and failed. But I will put it in my percolator.
BB
BB,
I see.
Well, how about a report about future antiques of today?!
🙂 😉 =^b
Fish
BB,
That would be tuff. Even the top end stuff gets quickly outdone,.. nowadays.
Chris
Chris,
Only a handful of Diana and Weihrauch springers might make it…
Fish.
siraniko,
ur father’s 60 has no barrel droop then – good for your dad.
if both rear and front sights are on the barrel, of course, barrel droop won’t cause an issue at all. speaking theoretically, ur first paragraph didn’t help, but thanks a lot for the time and kind help.
ur second paragraph doesn’t work on me, because recently, I don’t have time or place to shoot air guns. When ever I figure out a practical, safe spot to plink, and have or want to make time for it, the right air rifle will present herself. I talk about these, because I enjoy such chit chats, no need for paralysis of character by analysis. 🙂
In the meantime, by any chance, if I get lucky one day and come across a reasonable prewar 27 or something like that, or a 22, 23 and such in proper condition, it’ll be a different story of course. With the brand new rifles in the market, i don’t see anything worth to have to have regardless – if you know what I mean.
Well, here I go again bringing up an older blog. This time from 2016 on the Crosman 150. In part 3 at the end you commented that “I wonder what I am going to do about these sights”. No need to shave down the front sight, just put the sight now used on the 2240, 1377 or the 1322 on the 150. It has the vertical slide like some of the 150’s had and the slide can be adjusted high enough to raise your point of impact on the 150. Works great and there is no need to alter the front sight. Thought this tip might help someone.
Maybe it’s time to re-visit the 150. Love the blogs on the vintage guns.
Jonah,
I’ll consider it.
BB
BB, I’m curious why these bullets do not depend on obturation to size to the bore. Wouldn’t it be easier to make fewer sizes that would fit the bore better? It would be a harder mold to make, that’s for sure!
Do you have any recovered from game, showing the effectiveness of the hollow point?
At 150 yards will these bullets pass through a bison?( no bone), I think so. I ask because in a pellet gun for
hunting, a pass through is a less than ideal situation. These are more like hella’ Kodiaks. Is there an optimum range/velocity for them? The heavy bullet looks the best. If it were more hollow, it might be better,
I have no clue. .257 roberts the bullets are longer.
Rob
1stblue,
Despite the softness of lead I do not believe that air pressure behind the slug will not be enough to cause sufficient obturation to size it to the bore. Given the difficulty of consistently and properly seating a slug 0.001 larger than the bore you want to push in one a few more thousandths larger? B.B.’s thumb will get sore from the effort I think.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
How are things over your way on Covid? The #’s are up here. I do not give a whole lot a credence to upticks in testing #’s,… but I do give credit to (new all time high) hospital admission #’s. Just curious, as you are right up on the front line. Thanks,……..
Chris
Chris USA,
The way my government issues the number of cases (delayed reporting, revision of reports [believe it or not they have reported someone died to later retract that statement and declare that person to be alive!] and spin doctors) I can hardly believe their statements. We might have slowed it down, but the numbers are still rising not as fast as the USA though. Our population in the city is so dense that a lockdown made sense. Easing of the lockdown with draconian rules regarding face masks and shields have kept the numbers from running away. So far the hospitals are able to cope with the number of cases and have not called for a 3rd lockdown.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
You are correct!
Material BHN Pressure
(psi) (MPa)
Pure lead 5 7,110 49
1:20 tin/lead 10 14,200 98
1:10 tin/lead 11.5 16,400 113
Pure copper 40 56,900 392
These are the numbers for bullet UPSET which is the actual term typically used. The concept is that it takes a quick strike of that much pressure to cause the flat based bullet to deform in length thereby increasing in diameter to fill the bore and engage the rifling grooves.
There is a formula that covers every BHN.
shootski
1stblue,
Error of double negative in my first sentence: Despite the softness of lead I do not believe that air pressure behind the slug will not be enough to cause sufficient obturation to size it to the bore. Omit first not.
Siraniko
Rob,
Obturation requires around 12K to 15K pressure. We are working with less than 3K.
BB
B.B.,
See above post for some actual accepted numbers.
shootski
1stblue,
See my answer to Siraniko about bullet UPSET and the pressure actually required. There are different ways to get obturation in airguns not all provide increased accuracy. Sizing too much beyond .002 down, on large diameter bullets, is almost never going to be beneficial to accuracy since it results in asymmetric lengthening as well as roundness since it becomes an extrusion.
shootski
B.B.,
I read your Texan Part 4 blog when it first posted and no one had commented so i waited to comment until now.
I will say that i completely agree that Robert Vogel’s bullet casting is outstanding. He has shot numerous makers Big Bore and has the HOLLOW POINT down cold as a result of that experience and his work ethics.
On to my comments on your groups: 255 grain looks like the power setting is real close as is your seating depth for this barrel Leade. On the 350 i wouldn’t write it off so quickly. If you move the holes toward the center (wish you had a target sequence video) you will find a great group. I find when i get vertical dispersion groups like that some more power reduces the percentage differences and closes the virtical spread down. I don’t know how you seated them but i would push them in harder on loading given what the Leade seems to be like for this barrel; i would also up the power in steps. On the 365 i would give them one last chance and do it at near full power; i think you had some serious precession going on that caused that scattered group.
I don’t find the readerships response surprising! They don’t seem to generally realize you started at 50! And how few rounds you have on paper compared to small caliber tests.
So…Big Bores cost money, time and lots of air to get set up for each and every bullet as you well know. They don’t make sense for 95% of the Readership and what they want from an airgun. You don’t hunt squirrel, chipmunks, rats, starlings, etc. with Big Bore, or Target Shoot (unless you don’t mind the costs or are doing it at 100+) you can get sub MOA with Big Bore with some work!
BUT it takes a lot more shots on target to get there than 35 with 4 different bullets. They need to know that once you get to know a Big Bore, say after mindfully (documenting everything) shooting 500 bullets, of various design, Mass and power levels you might have it down in 10 shots to set up or reject a NEW to the Big Bore bullet. So as i said the readership needs more education on Big Bore reality before joining in on the fun.
If i was starting down the Big Bore road i might seriously go Air Force Big Bore but for one reason they are way too long for hunting in my opinion. For now I am exceedingly happy with the clutch of DAQs I own from .25 (near big bore with over 120FPE, all the way to the .575 Shortrifle at 375FPE and rising with every new lesson in bullet selection…difficult at that giant caliber because of small numbers of commercial cast as well as even die availability.
The .458 DAQ LA is still my favorite hunting Big Bore!
Tom try some more power on that .350 and especially the .356 when you get a chance! You may find them much better than they have demonstrated.
shootski
Shootski,
I have not shot a big bore but from what I have heard they seem to me to be very similar to black powder guns and many ways. I spent quite a few years with black powder guns and really enjoyed all but the cleaning. By far the best trigger on any gun I have shot was the double set trigger on my Thompson Center Hawkins 50 caliber. I bet there are some nice bullets out there now that would be accurate in the old gun.
Someday I may go with a big bore but for now I’m going smaller and smaller. See comment below LOL.
Don.
Benji-Don,
Spot on on the comparison. Tom has often used his knowledge of muzzle loaders to equate to Big Bore. Cleaning is certainly a big difference as is lack of the cloud obscuration! I need to see if i can thread the end of the barrel on my .458 or get a Coupler made to slip fit since i so like the big Donny FL on my .308! Double set triggers are interesting but rare these days.
shootski
Shootski
To shoot small bore air guns you have to put more than 35 shots through them to know what pellet your guns like.
I have have brought that up before when BB does his groups when he reports on guns. 10 shots or 20 shots from one pellet type is not enough.
But since we are here. I would expect way better groups at just 50 yards with a big bore once the right bullet is found.
If the gun is grouping at over a inch at 50 yards. What will it group at 100 yards or even farther distances. But then again what would be acceptable at 150yards? Three inches? I guess whatever your shooting at with a Texan is big so I imagine a 3″ kill zone would be acceptable or not. For me not. I would want a better grouping guntohunt with.
Gunfun1,
Good points all!
I’ll add to your thoughts on precision needed for hunting. I want MOA or less out to the maximum effective range. Three inches at 150 is way too much because of wind and the TOF (Time Of Flight) since wind effects are influenced by the TOF more than most hunter realize and then the issue that few animals will stand perfectly still like we hope our Pop Cans, paper or steel targets seem to!
shootski
Shootski
Same thoughts here.
And going to slip in a little surprise here. I will be a big bore air gun shooter soon. But it won’t be with bullets right now. Maybe at some point round lead balls before bullets. And definitely bird shot before the first two. What do you think I ordered today?
Gunfun 1,
A Seneca Wing Shot MK II! FIFTY (.50) Caliber!!!!!!
Hope that is correct.
Merry Christmas!
shootski
Shootski
Yes sir. The .50 caliber WingShot ll.
I have been a big shot gun hunter since I was a kid growing up. Especially living in Illinios with thier crazy hunting rules.
But I have been wanting a Wingshot for a long long time. BB reviewed a Wingshot (l)and I wanted one.
So its been brewing for a long time.
And yes for sure Merry Christmas. And you don’t know what I had to agree to with my wife. No to do list. A big to buy list from her is what happened.
But you know what. We both or lucky to have had good jobs all our lifes. And believe me it wouldn’t be without the guy upstairs. Definitely have been blessed.
Gunfun1
New handle? Shotgunfun Mk Ii.
Nah! Gunfun1 is still better.
I lived in Pennsylvania as a kid so understand the crazy scattergun hunting rules
“But you know what. We both or lucky to have had good jobs all our lifes. And believe me it wouldn’t be without the guy upstairs. Definitely have been blessed.”
My wife and I are floating on the same high tide in retirement.
Anyhow…I wish the Good Lord grants you and yours great health for many years!
shootski
PS: you might like this calculator for round ball: http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html
Shootski
And you and your family also. And you know he will.
And yep I will check out the link. Thanks.
Folks,
Today I finaly got a chance to test my Daisy 499 with the Red Ryder piston spring. My first bummer was that I forgot my Daisy Match Grade Avanti Precision Ground Shot .177 Cal, 5.1 Grains, Steel BBs up at my cabin. I used Daisy Premium Grade .177 Cal, 5.1 Grains, Zinc Plated BBs instead.
I made a tang sight out of scrap because there is no way to get one or two feet of hold over with a peep rear sight and a circle insert on the front sight of the 499. The Red Ryder allows the rear notch to be set anywhere along the top of the barrel for as much hold over as needed. I spent this morning replacing the trigger return spring I mangled yeasterday, not paying attention. Luckily I have a few extra springs and was able to continue. I built the tang sight out of scraps that provided enough verticle adjustment to go as far out as the 499 could shoot. I did not start out to do that it is just what was handy.
My plan was to duplicate the test I did with the Red Ryder a while back shooting at a feral aluminum can hanging on a wire at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. I started my sight in at 10 yards. With the sight as low as it would go, the gun was shooting too high at 10 yards, I thought I had measured the height of the peep as low as it would go on the tang sight to match the original peep that came with the gun O well. I moved out to 15 yards and spent more time. With the peep sight and wet grass I could not tell where the bbs were hitting so I put a piece of cardboard behind the can. It still took a while to figure out I was shooting over the cardboard. So I decided to go ahead and just make the move to 25 yards. After more shots I figured out I was still shooting too high at 25 yards. Did the RR spring make that much difference? I have not measured any velocities after the RR spring was installed.
I put the original peep sight back on the gun and shot at a patch of tape on the cardboard I had used to cover a hole with earlier. I hit the center of the tape on the first shot. That is never a good sign for me it usually goes down hill from there. So I decided to start shooting the can. The first shot was a hit so I kept going. The first 5 shots hit the can then I missed two shots. I realized that I had been naturally raising my aimpoint till I was over the can to compensate for the distance. I moved back to aiming at the center of the can and shots 8-10 were hits. I thought I could do better but then the wind came up and I did my best to wait for the wind to calm for each shot. This round I was able to hit 9 out of 10 shots at the can at 25 yards using the Daisy Premium Grade BBs. Would it do better with the Acanti BBs maybe.
So the 499 absolutely can outshoot the Red Ryder at 25 yards and even some pellet guns when hot rodded with the Red Ryder piston spring. So now do I put the tang sight back on and push out even further?
Thanks Cobalt327 for the idea and instructions and Chris USA for keeping me going on this project.
Here is a picture of the gun with the tang sight on it.
Don
Don,
You be gettin’ all fancy with us with that top end tang sight your sporting there! LOL! 🙂 Impressive!
I am SO glad it worked out so well for you. Looking forwards to you shooting the Avanti bb’s.
While BB has limited time, it would be fun to see him take this project on. Not hard at all,.. considering everything else he has been into.
Chris
Also on the tang sight I was going to buy a cheap one but the cheapest I found was around $300. If my time was worth anything I could have bought one. LOL
Don,
Mangled trigger spring? I never got into the trigger. Huh?
That would be a killer mod. item if someone would make one,… an adjustable 499 trigger! 🙂 Drop right in.
I have seen a grind and reshape trigger part mod.,…. but I ain’t going there.
Chris
Chris U,
I think I tuned the trigger after I got the gun but don’t remember. The trigger is sort of two stage but long and creepy. I don’t remember it being like that before so I may have done some damage. It is light enough that it is usable as is but crisp it is not. The way the trigger assembly drops right in a two stage would not be hard to do. Even with metal parts I think it would be much better. I is used in competition so trigger mods may not be legal.
Don
Chris,
My rememberer is not good but I think I did the grind and reshape. Not sure what I did today but I think the trigger was much better before I mangled the return spring. Probably chewed up the plastic parts some.
Don,
I did a stock (chopped?) TX200 spring in mine at the first. I think it messed up the latch rod, but could see no damage. It worked for about 5 shots, before it would not latch. I ordered a new latch rod and all is good for many shots with the RR spring.
A drop in trigger unit would be an awesome upgrade. Not everyone that has one competes.
Chris
I will have to check out the latch rod. I don’t know what it is but sounds like mine could be buggerdup.
Don,
It is the rod? that the piston is attached to. U shaped. you know what I am taking about. 95P in the manual. 499PA as the assy. The part that catches the trigger sear.
Chris
ok got it that would be hard to mangle. I have had mine apart so many times it may be time to slow down. With the sheet metal and wood the screws can only take so many times in and out before they strip out. I can live with the trigger so it will be good to go for now.
I just realized I did not mention that I shot with my elbows resting on a pillow. The picture gives the impression that I used a vice rest. Neither the Red Ryder or the 499 like to be in a vice or rested on a bag from my experience. They like a hold that is a little more firm than the artillery hold but not tight either.
Don,
I have always rested mine with slight side finger pressure on the forearm. Moderate shoulder. I need a butt pad slip on, (plus LOP) but can find nothing small enough. The LimbSaver brand is absolute awesome on fit and flex. I have one on the Maximus and had them on the TX200 and LGU.
Chris
It did not show up in my picture but I screwed on a rubber but pad that is quite a bit bigger than the stock. I did not trim it to match the stock and it works well. nothing to pretty too look at but works.
Benji-Don,
Go for it! Tang on and 35 yards or BUST!
AFTER ALL:
“…wind came up and I did my best to wait for the wind to calm for each shot. This round I was able to hit 9 out of 10 shots at the can at 25 yards using the Daisy Premium Grade BBs. Would it do better with the Acanti BBs maybe.”
With BB no less! Too humble for your own good by a ways!
shootski
Fish,
Get a Daisy 499 and some BBs cost is not an issue. You can shoot in any size room. Just watch out for ricochets. A cardboard box and a pillow is all you need for a backstop. Time to pull the trigger so to speak.
Don
Don,
Been there, said that,……… to Fish before. It would be perfect for his self described current situation. I shoot mine at 24′ all the time.
Chris
me too
basement plans have been shelved.
Benji-Don,
This little piece is full of information AND fun to read.
Fish should have gone to one of these as a kid:
https://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/guns/2015/06/bb-kings-and-queens-young-guns-daisy-national-bb-gun-championship/
Enjoy there is a “technical” part!
shootski
Good link thanks
Don
Do some more shooting and let me know what happens.
If you keep getting good results then I’m getting a 499 on my next order and a Red Ryder spring.
I will probably scope mine or put a red dot sight on it.
GF1,
????,……….. I am not sure about either of those options,.. at least none that I know of.
I think Don went to the tang because he ran out of peep adjustment at 25 yards,… but not sure.
Chris
Chris
Yep I just checked. I thought the 499 had dovetails.
Guess not.
GF1,
I went with the tang sight because I thought I would need between one and two feet of holdover at 25 yards. With the tang sight I was shooting too high at 25 yards. So I went back to the original peep sight that came with the gun. It was dead on at 25 yards from how I had it adjusted when I took it off.
The 499 does not have a dovetail, well it does have a mount that the sight clamps on but it is not a dovetail. It is much narrower. Using the top stock screw and an existing threaded hole in the top of the existing mount a dovetail could be added. The Ruger 10/22 has one and I have some shorter ones but don’t remember what gun they come off of.
If I try out past 25 yards I will let you know.
Don
Don
I seen where you kept saying it was shooting high. That’s why I thought a scope or red dot would work out until I found out they won’t mount on the 499.
But if the factory peep sight is working out at 25 yards I’m all for it.
Right now the 499 is out of stock. So I don’t know when I can get one. But I for sure am getting one.
My next question is did you get the Red Ryder spring from Daisy? Do you have any part numbers on the RedRyder spring?
If you can give the info I would be much obliged. I want to get things rolling.
And I noticed you didn’t have the Avanti bb’s. I have the ones you used and the Avanti bb’s. Do you think your 499 will be more accurate if you try the Avanti bb’s?
GF1,
Both Chris and I ordered the Red Ryder 1938 plunger assembly I think the part number is 102 PA.
I think you can order only the spring part number 102 PS.
From Daisy.
Chris used the assembly with some mods. I only used the spring from my assembly.
Don
Don
Ok thanks.
I will check it out.
But I should say this. When I contacted Daisy a little while back Rachel the customer service lady who I need to say worked building the 499 before going to customer service was very very helpful.
I’m use to ordering from Crosman on the phone and they want part numbers when you call. Not Rachel. She said hold one second and I’ll pull up the diagram.
I was totally surprised with that. But I bet she will hook me up with a spring form the RedRyder.
Just wanted to say that about Daisy. But I will check PA for the parts too.
GF1,
Per my receipt, Item # 169750-000. It is called a 1938 Plunger Assembly.
Daisy phone, 1-470-636-1200
Chris
Chris
Thanks.
Don
Thanks.
I think my reply below went to Chris.
Don
And you replied to me.
shootski, we pretty much disagree on almost everything – not the end of the world, buddy. i’m actually comfortable, happy, and quite proud with the fact. earth still turns despite u, me and our disagreements. 🙂
Fish,
You kind Sir must have me confused with some other poster perhaps even on some other Blog!
I know of no exchanges between you and me that could be categorized as Bullying or DISAGREEMENT by either of us; at least not until your two most recent posts (one of which you have apparently deleted) which display a distinct Passive/Aggressive tinge.
It is all good what you think! I Served to ensure you were at Liberty to do as you please up to the point that you effect others without their permission.
I learned this as a child as an immigrant to this great country:
Sticks and Stones will break my Bones but NAMES will NEVER HURT ME!
shootski
you see, we disagree terribly. 🙂
I still like you, but we just disagree on every single subject.
shootski,
i have to say this. i hope u’re aware that i was just giving u a hard time cause u had given me one. i just want to make that clear. i deleted the earlier comments, because they could cause misunderstandings. still, i do believe that we disagree alot, but it shouldn’t be an issue between friends, right?
fish.
Fish,
How did you get/ascribe to the handle of “Fish” anyways?
As far as “hard time, misunderstandings, disagree and issues”,… you don’t stay in anyone place/make a stand long enough for anyone to do any of those things with you.
Maybe change your handle to “Constantly stirring up the pot”? ;),….. not.
Chris
Chris,
Maybe they dropped me or something when I was a baby – I really don’t know. 🙂
Fish
B.B., and Readership,
If you want to compare caliber effect here is a simplified way to do it:http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html
You can change a number of projectile parameters beyond the automatic ones but you need to go back and enter them manually before tapping FIRE.
The write-up talks about the fact that balistically the round nose is pretty good at approximating the external balistics of not just ball but any roundish (to include Hollow Points in my experience) nosed projectiles.
Play with it and have some fun on a too windy or rainy day!
shootski