Does seating pellets extremely deep help?

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

This report covers:

  • The rifles
  • The test
  • El Gamo David
  • Discussion David
  • Diana model 35
  • Discussion Diana 35
  • Diana 27
  • Discussion Diana 27
  • Summary

Recently a reader posted a comment that he had improved his accuracy by seating pellets extremely deep into the barrel of his airgun. He said he pushed them in 40mm or more. So today I conducted a test to see what affect, if any, that has on a couple of my rifles.

The rifles

I selected the El Gamo David because we just saw it shoot. And I selected the Diana 35, which is a very accurate breakbarrel I last tested June of 2019. Then I researched both rifles and selected the best pellet from all my testing and also the best hold for each airgun.

The test

I shot off a rest at 10 meters. I shot 5-shot groups so I wouldn’t tire out in the middle of the test, but also so I could concentrate on my technique.

To seat the pellet deep I used an Allen wrench with 40 mm marked off on the shaft. I pushed the pellet into the bore until that mark was flush with the entrance to the breech. The reader who commented said there wasn’t any magic about 40 mm, it was just his way of telling us about how deep they were seated. And 40 mm works out to 1.5745-inches, in case you wonder.

40mm
The Allen wrench seated the pellets to about 40 mm deep.

El Gamo David

The El Gamo David shot best with RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle pellets. In Part four I put 5 of them into 0.166-inches between centers at 10 meters, resting the rifle directly on the sandbag. I shot the David first the way I did in Part 4 — seating each pellet with a ballpoint pen. The first shot hit the target to the right of the bull, but I continued to shoot the group anyway. Five pellets landed in a group that measures 0.607-inches between centers. It’s much larger than the group I shot in Part 4, so I will keep an eye on my shooting technique.

David Meister Rifle pen
When the pellet was seated with a ballpoint pen, the El Gamo David put 5 RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle pellets in 0.607-inches at 10 meters.

I was surprised that the group was as large as it was, given what the David did just last week, but maybe the group was more of an indication how well I was shooting — not the rifle.

Now it was time to seat the pellet deep. I started each pellet with the pen to get the skirt into the barrel, then pushed it in with the Allen wrench to the mark on the shaft. Then I shot each pellet just as carefully as before. This time five Meisterkugeln Rifle pellets went into as group that measures 0.648-inches between centers at 10 meters. It’s not much different and certainly no better than the first one.

David Meister Rifle 40mm
When the Meisterkugeln Rifle pellet was seated 40mm deep in the bore five of them went into 0.648-inches at 10 meters. This group is also a little more to the right than the last one.

Discussion David

So the El Gamo David didn’t do much different with the deep seating. Given the extra work that’s involved, I think this procedure is not for this air rifle.

Diana model 35

Next to be tested was the .177-caliber Diana model 35. This rifle delivered remarkable accuracy when I last tested it in June of 2019. It likes Air Arms Falcons the best of all and back then it gave 10-meter 5-shot groups that ranged from 0.194-inches to 0.371-inches between centers.

I first tested it with the pellet seated flush and using the artillery hold with my off hand at the rear of the cocking slot. Five Falcons went into 0.25-inches at ten meters. Not only is that a great group, it also proves that old BB can still shoot. And, it is in the range of this rifle’s accuracy with the same pellet a year and a half ago.

David Falcon flush
The Diana 35 put 5 Falcon pellets in 0.25-inch group at 10 meters when seated flush.

Next I used the Allen wrench to deep-seat the Falcons 40 mm into the bore. This time, using the same artillery hold the Diana 35 put five Falcons into a 0.836-inch group at 10 meters. This time the difference between seating flush and extra deep is decisive!

Diana Falcon 40mm
When seated 40mm deep, the Diana 35 threw the Falcon pellets into this 0.836-inch group at 10 meters.

Discussion Diana 35

I was so glad to see that I was shooting okay. This is why it’s nice to have an air rifle that always delivers. Also — never sell an accurate airgun!

At this point in the test I had one result that was inconclusive and one that was decisively against seating 40mm deep. So I shot one more rifle.

Diana 27

This rifle is my Hy Score 807/Diana 27 in .22 caliber. I used obsolete Eley Wasp 5.6mm pellets for the test. First I shot five Wasps that were seated flush with the breech. They made a group that measured 0.555-inches between centers at 10 meters. They also struck the pellet trap noticeably louder!

Diana 27 Wasp flush
The Diana 27 put 5 Wasp pellets that were seated flush into a 0.555-inch group.

Now for 40mm deep-seated pellets. This time the Diana 27 put five Wasps in 1.207-inches at 10 meters — a definite degradation in accuracy!

Diana 27 Wasp 40mm
When seated 40mm deep the Diana 27 scattered five Wasps into 1.207-inches at 10 meters.

Discussion Diana 27

These three little tests are not conclusive, but they do indicate that seating a pellet 40mm deep in the barrel doesn’t help — at least not with these three rifles. It was such a bizarre idea that I just had to know for sure. If the reader who told us about this would like to write a guest blog and expand on what I have done here, he is certainly welcome.

Summary

When the idea of seating 40mm deep was first mentioned I didn’t like it because of the lack of cushioning the piston would get. However I did listen closely during this test and couldn’t detect any difference in the shot cycle.

At least we gave it a try!

190 thoughts on “Does seating pellets extremely deep help?


    • Edw,

      That is an excellent idea. I feel foolish for not thinking of it, too, as I have a dozen or more 1/4 inch male cable ends. That looks like it would be more effective than my long-time go-to swizzle sticks. The next time I shoot a tight breech air rifle or pistol, I’ll grab one of these.

      Michael


      • Michael,

        I don’t think 1/4″ will work for a gun under .25 caliber. Although Edw looks to have pictured 1/4″ male to 1/8″ female stereo adapter plugs, he must actually use a 1/8″ male plug, because of the calibers he mentioned. It is a great idea, though. If you use an old set of ear buds you can plug ’em in your ears and just let the plug dangle after using it to load each pellet.

        Half


        • Half,

          Earbuds usually have 1/8 inch plugs, a bit too small. 1/4 inch are the perfect size for flush seating .177, .20 and .22 pellets. 1/4 inch simply refers to the diameter of the plug shaft, not the tip. The tip is shaped kinda like one of those Hershey Kisses, trhe chocolates.

          I used one yesterday afternoon, and it was the perfect tool for that job.

          Michael


          • Michael,

            I understand now. I guess I was visualizing DEEP seating. You could still stick a 1/8 – 1/4 adapter on an old pair of earbuds and still let it dangle at your chest. Wonder how the end of of an Apple AirPod would work as a pellet seater……?

            Stay safe, Half



    • Edw: I purchased a Pellet Seat tool from Beeman back in the day that has a ball end for seating the skirt into the rifling at the breech and a conical end for deeper seating, but nowhere near the 40mm. RAW, in Nashville, that makes premium PCPs is making a clone of the original Beeman Pellet Seat Tool but with a nice lanyard attached (which would be great in the field).

      I seat nearly all of my pellets with the ball end. My thinking is that “clicking” the skirt into the initial rifling saves precious air energy for moving the pellet a tad faster down the bore rather than spending it on cutting the skirt into the rifling. Probably not really a meaningful gain, by the way? I think that the accuracy improves on most of my pieces, in particular pistols at 10 meters.

      The conical end is used for a couple of my rifles that have a seemingly tight bore or which prefer larger head pellets. The seating however is nowhere as deep as the test above. With the tight pellets/or bores, the deep seat end does noticeably improve the accuracy and keeps the breech seal from blowing out.

      The nice thing about the original Beeman Pellet Seat Tool and the RAW iteration is that they are anodized aluminum and, therefore, softer than the steel breeches that they force pellets to engage. The breeches are, therefore, harder and preserved and the seating tool bears the wear. Indeed, the Beeman ball end is entirely devoid, after being in service since 1989, of all of its anodizing but still does its job. One of these years, I’ll have to actually use my few years old brand new RAW tool!

      One more thing, on the Gamo P-45, which is now an Air Arms target pistol and my Beeman P-1 (a Weirauch 45) the ball end is really helpful in seating the pellets given the over-lever barrel making a ball end tool almost mandatory. That’s especially the case as it is hard to get a finger set to work in the confines of the over lever breech. Additionally, seating the pellets in the P-1 with the seating tool prevents the small O Ring breech seal from blowing out by reducing the starting resistance of the pellet; tight pellets in my P-1 always caused the breech O Ring to blow out of the shallow channel machined into the transfer port.

      For what it is worth…


  1. B.B.,

    I think it depends on the gun and the power of the gun. 40 mm may be extreme. On low power airguns it seems to me seating just past the rifling makes an improvement in accuracy and reduced velocity spread. On a gun with enough power deep seating may only add another variable to accuracy. My izy 46m does as good or better with no seating. My Beeman P17 does much better with shallow seating. It also depends on the pellet skirt and how much pressure is needed to conform it to the rifling. Thin shirt less pressure.

    Just my $0.02

    Don

    PS
    Guess Edw and I agree


    • Benji, Thanks for that tool idea. I spent more time than I care to admit looking for something around the house
      just for thal shape on the end. A Bic pen is my usual simple solution. I am curious about the change in velocity, if any, as a result of the increased volume of empty space behind the pellet if deep seated. I will have to break out the chrono to see. Once the pellet ‘cliks’ past the rim of the bore, I stop.
      R



  2. I know from extensive testing that deep seating pellets results in better accuracy in some airguns.

    What I don’t know is whether deep seating to 40mm makes a difference because I never tried it. I never tried it since I don’t see the rationale.

    For me deep seating pellets started with observation of a bolt probe vs transfer port relationship. With many single loaded springers I found that pellets seated mechanically JUST BEYOND FLUSH improved accuracy. This was especially true with thin skirted pellets.


  3. Merry Christmas one and all.
    I was just finishing a sermon I’ll be doing this Sunday at my Church and took my nightly peek on the blog.
    Interesting enough, I’ve been wanting to share my seating tool with others.
    While using my AF Condor SS in .25 along with H & N Grizzly’s, I was trying to seat them with my poor, now hurting thumb. My grouping at 50 yards was not the best to brag about. (2.5 inch) While in mild pain, I looked around my van for something to use to push the pellet (slug) in just a tiny bit more to clear the end of the breech.
    Low and behold, a valve cap, yes a tire cap. The slightly rounded end fit perfectly into the breech and seated each of those to the exact (just inside the barrel) spot and my groups shrunk down to 3/4 inch at 50 yds.
    Now I hope I don’t get dirt and mud in my valve stems, cause I’m missing 4 caps!! 🙂
    Shawn


    • Shawn,

      That’s a wonderful idea! I wish I had thought of it.

      I have never gotten accuracy from slugs in airguns, but you have opened my eyes to the possibility of seating deeper.

      Merry Christmas to you and your family and congregation, pastor! 🙂

      BB


      • BB-

        What exactly do you suppose is happening when deep seating improves accuracy? I know the pellet skirts start imprinting the rifling and to a certain degree aligns it more gently in the barrel than the violent discharge of air, but what do you suppose is actually improving accuracy? Or perhaps to word it differently, what is happening to NOT degrade accuracy? In what type of guns do you typically see an advantage? I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of deep seating having any affect unless it was so deeply seated as to get a pellet out of the barrel of a spring gun before the worst effects of piston slap or spring vibration came into play. But the piston is always faster than the pellet, yes?



          • Well, thanks for an honest answer. I may not have been as clear as I meant. I am mostly curious if anyone has a good theory as to why seating works to improve accuracy in guns that it works in and why some guns don’t seem to need it.

            It sounds like there isn’t one unifying reason. Maybe many variables? Maybe stop asking so many questions and just shoot the darned thing? I can appreciate that.


          • B.B. New to the blog but I have read a lot of the articles. I found this one curious.

            Not about deep seating, to me that doesn’t make much sense. However, I have seen examples of deformed skirts when seating uning one’s thumb. Not a good thing. A properly employed seating tool could help prevent this.

            Secondly, consider that as it presses the skirt against the bore, it can provide a more consistent engagement with the bore. Also, a consistent seating depth, something that you cannot provide with a thumb.

            And consistency has a lot to do with accuracy.

            Cheers,
            BiggerBullet


    • Shawn
      Wow that’s hard to believe.

      My .25 Condor SS gets .750 to .500 inch groups at 50 yards all day long seating JSB 33.95 pellets with my thumb.

      Why did your groups change so much?


      • Hey G, my Condor SS with those same pellets does a ragged hole at fifty. But the pellets (actually slugs) I was talking about are the H & N Grizzly’s, a slug.
        The problem I was having, is that the breech is just that little tighter than the 12″ barrel. I couldn’t push the slug in far enough, it was sticking out about a sixty-fourth of an inch.
        Not realizing, or so I thought, that some of the air was not getting completely behind that slug, I pushed it in as far as I could with my thumb…ouch!!!
        I was actually using up all the tins (3) I had to just use them up, because they weren’t accurate. Shooting sage rats here in Oregon. The morning out was a little nippy, and my thumb hurt, but lots of rats out, so…I looked for something to use for a seating tool. Bingo a tire cap laying around.
        When I pushed in the slug, and seated it with the cap, it went further in about a thirty-second to a sixteenth of an inch. I thought, well we’ll see how this goes and sage rats were being dropped at 85-90 yards….WOW!!
        After a 45 rat morning, I shot them from the bench in my back yard and I’m able to put these to good use.
        Hope this all makes sense. It works for me! 🙂 shawn
        Oh btw..I’ve dropped several sage rats over 100 yards with those same JSB’s and my longest was a lazered 156 yards and a couple at 144. Nice pellets in that SS


        • Shawn
          Why are you using slugs.

          My Condor SS will easily shoot just at a one and a half inch group at 100 yards with the JSB’s.

          I just can’t justify the things that come up with slugs. But if it’s working for you great.

          Well other than my easy loading pellets and your hard loading slugs.

          But I guess accurate is accurate however you achieve it.


  4. Seems like out of the 3 rifles you tested this time the David’s the only one that didn’t show much if any degradation in accuracy. Maybe something different about how its bore is rifled?



  5. BB,

    Thank you for giving this concept a go. Yes, it would be nice if the original poster would add more.

    In theory, the piston would be more forward before the air rebound with deep seating. I do like the idea of the pellet being full seated into the rifling.

    Hey,.. you gave it a try and that is all we can ask. Maybe some other readers will give it a go and report back.

    Chris


    • Chris USA,

      Where do you think the rifling in the barrel starts?
      I can see seating the pellet 1/8-1/4 inch after the pellet skirt, but more than that……Just push the pellets up until the choke starts, now THAT is deep seating.

      -Y



      • Yogi,

        As you know, the rifling can start immediately, shortly or there may be a bit of a leade in/funnel area. The idea intrigued me and while BB could not prove that it helped, I am still glad he gave it a go.

        As for FX barrels being “so accurate”,… well, I don’t own one but it is no secret that they have been at the forefront of barrel design and innovation and happy to publish data/info.. I can think of no other company that has done that or been as forthcoming as to what they are doing.

        Air gun slugs are also undergoing a bit of a transformation too. More choices, different designs and weights, size specific, etc.

        As has been mentioned, it (deep seating) should change the shot cycle, which may in fact help various other shot cycle characteristics like pellet exit time, barrel vibrations, hold sensitivity, etc..

        In the end,… I just like to see innovation and new ideas. In most cases, things start and give a base line for further refinement.

        Chris



          • Yogi,

            Well,… it is “stupid” until someone proves otherwise. If someone does it and it yields consistently better results after some repeated testing,.. then who am I to say it’s stupid?

            I will not be testing it out as I have nothing suitable. I can see having the head and skirt fully engaged in the rifling as being a good thing,.. to whatever that amount may be for any particular gun.

            Chris


            • Chris
              Now thinking about the deep deep seating more.

              Maybe if you experiment with different depths is the trick. Kind of like how moving the barrel band in the right location will help accuracy. In a sense the pellet kind of acts like the barrel band but on the inside of the barrel.




                • Chris USA,

                  Would that be for one barrel and one pellet at a time?

                  Do you think I could get a government grant from the new administration to test out all those millions of combinations? I believe I could employ every one of you Esteemed Readers for the rest of our lives and those of our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations (including aunts and uncles along with 3rd cousin once removed) before we would conclude that Different Depths for Different People prove Different! :^)

                  shootski


                  • Shootski,

                    “Do you think I could get a government grant from the new administration to test out all those millions of combinations?” Bite your tongue young man! (at least for now) Still confident? It should have never made it this far. Grrrrrrrr!

                    As for the grants,… I have no doubt you could. Depends on who you know I suppose. I am sure that you are more aware than many of what is possible there. But yes,… you have the right idea. Spend millions, for years, padding the pockets of friends and family to eventually conclude (if ever) that:

                    “After long, arduous and exhaustive study,… we have determined nothing conclusive, but rather many areas that we deem highly interesting and would warrant additional funding for further study.”

                    Interpretation: We wasted all of the tax payer’s money and have nothing to show for it. Please give us some more.

                    🙁 Chris



                  • Half,

                    “Yup,… it gets real deep, real quick.”,….. That?,…… At the time, (not) intended. Rather just how deep you can get into any hobby and related theories.

                    Chris


  6. BB
    Do you think its possible that you could of flared the pellet skirt using the allen wrench. Maybe that’s causing a accuracy problem. Or maybe you was actually on the skirt of the pellet with the Allen wrench and damaged the skirt. After all you did use different brand pellets that I’m sure have different cavities in the skirt end of the pellet.

    What I use for seating pellets in some of my belt magazine air guns is a old ice pick that I rounded off some of the point. It fits perfect in the center of the pellet. And it pushes the pellet in nice and straight.


  7. BB,

    As you say, it is inconclusive. I myself will not be deep seating pellets. Why? Time. How much time is used in the deep seating of each pellet? In the time it takes for you to get a shot off, cock, fumble with pellet, insert pellet, fumble with deep seater, deep seat pellet, return barrel to battery, aim and fire, a wild pack of feral soda cans would be all over you. How can you possibly defend the homestead from feral soda cans and the like with such a slow rate of fire?

    Some pellet pens have a seating tool on them. With practice, you can become pretty quick at reloading and seating a pellet. In a case such as this I would use the tool to insure all pellets were in the same place. You can adjust the tool to either flush or “deep”.

    Don,

    I had to pull out my Izzy last night. We had a bat get in somehow and it was flying around the great room. When it landed, I quickly dispatched it with her. Low power so no damage is done to the house and extremely accurate so the critter is dispatched quickly.



      • B.B.,

        The go-to for bats used to be a tennis racket, but given how the popularity of tennis has dropped in the U.S., most American homes lack any. I guess a low-powered air gun might be the tool for the job.

        Michael


      • BB
        Really. We had them at work, in the house and in the barns when I was a kid on the farm. We didn’t dispatch them. They eat a lot of nuisance bugs.

        Like I said to RR we would catch them and put them outside.


        • Gunfun1,

          You sure have that right, my friend! Along with the Purple Martin, bats, especially North American varieties, are the best friend of farmers, vegetable gardeners and flower gardeners, not to mention mosquito-haters like me. Accoriding to wikipedia,

          “Most microbats, especially in temperate areas, prey on insects. The diet of an insectivorous bat may span many species, including flies, mosquitos, beetles, moths, grasshoppers, crickets, termites, bees, wasps, mayflies and caddisflies. Large numbers of Mexican free-tailed bats (Tadarida brasiliensis) fly hundreds of metres above the ground in central Texas to feed on migrating moths. Species that hunt insects in flight, like the little brown bat (Myotis lucifugus), may catch an insect in mid-air with the mouth, and eat it in the air or use their tail membranes or wings to scoop up the insect and carry it to the mouth. The bat may also take the insect back to its roost and eat it there. Slower moving bat species, such as the brown long-eared bat (Plecotus auritus) and many horseshoe bat species, may take or glean insects from vegetation or hunt them from perches. Insectivorous bats living at high latitudes have to consume prey with higher energetic value than tropical bats.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bat#Insects)

          Yep, Gunfun1, bats are our friends. :^)

          Michael


      • BB,

        Over the thirteen years we have lived here, I have had to dispatch four bats so far using the Edge and my Izzy. I still have not figured out how they are getting in. It is pretty wild to be sitting there watching the boob tube and have a bat fluttering around the room.






          • Chris

            I shoot a pistol in the house. It is affectionately referred to as the house fly gun. My wife thinks it is a hoot but warns me when a fly attacks. Powered by a steel coiled spring with a nice two stage trigger it is devastating if I can do the ballistics since it shoots 6 inches high at 2 feet. This one is not a drooper. The circular fan shaped projectile is quite capable of breaking things if I forget to attach the recoil string. Reminds me of the fun Edith and BB had with the rubber band gun.

            Stay safe and Merry Christmas.

            Deck


            • Deck,

              Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours as well!

              As for toy shooters,… I avoid the toy gun aisle in Walmart for good reason. I could see myself going off the deep end pretty quick. Not to mention, some of that high end Nerf stuff can be pretty pricey. I have a shopping list and am in and out in pretty short order most times. Likely a good idea in current day happenings.

              As for “circular fan shaped” projectiles,.. I remember having a small gun that that launched a 2-3 vertical fan and worked quite well. Also one that launched nickle sized disk,… horizontal exit as I recall. Eventually, something would fail and they got trashed.

              Assuming any of them could be torn down/come apart,.. I could easily see myself tearing them down and hot-rodding them! 😉

              Chris





      • GF1,

        The ceiling in my great room is over 20 feet at the center beam. No tennis racket, pillow case, butterfly net, etc. is going to reach. Now the Izzy poses not threat to the logs, cedar, etc. so it makes a wonderful high altitude critter getter.


      • GF1,

        No, no,…. they will attack you and bite your neck, with big fangs and suck all of the blood out of you. Then you die,.. but not really,…. you become the living dead. At this point, you have to have blood and leads to more necks getting bitten. To make matters worse,.. you will have people hunting you down with Holy Water, crosses and wooden stakes if you don’t keep things on the down low real good.

        So see, RR did the right thing and saved everyone around. The wife may have had a say in the matter too. “I don’t care how you get it out of here,.. just DO IT!!!!!!!”

        Chris




            • Chris
              You know I do pesting. But I always try to resolve the problems the practical way first. No excuse it has to be that way. I have seen some crazy situations. And they stick in my mind.

              But if it comes to that I’m very very good at it. Why do you think I practice so much. It wouldn’t be right if didn’t. You see where I’m coming from.



    • RR,

      I have shot a couple of tree rats that just would not leave us alone. Probably 5 yards, no problem with my 46m.

      We have lots of bats up at the cabin. They get in the corrugation in our tin roof. It has the small corrugation in the middle and sides the rest is flat. I had to fill every corrugation with foam to keep them out. Kate found them there when painting the facia board, just about scared her off the ladder when one came out. She put a hat on, something about one could get in her hair?

      We have had a few birds fly in when we leave the door open, but luckily no bats. They could probably get in if they are determined. If they start living in the walls or attic they can do a lot of damage with their urine. Ithappend to some neighbors.

      I am waiting for my AV 46m to show up. It will be fun to compare the two.

      Don


      • Benji-Don,

        Mine should arrive tomorrow. It was stuck North of Pittsburgh for two days but started moving again this morning!

        Hope your’s will be at least as accurate as mine ;^)

        shootski


      • Don,

        I really would like a close comparison, most especially the grip. I would like to know if it will fit the old 46M. I would not be surprised to find out the main portion of this air pistol is still made by Baikal.

        I would really like to get my hands on one of these.



        • RR,

          I like their looks and would like take either or both.

          I will definitely be checking the grips. Not sure how much comparing of the izh 46m to the av 46m B.B. is going to do.

          Don


          • Don,

            I especially like that pistol. To me, an airgun does not need to and for my own personal taste, should not look like a firearm. I understand there is a HUGE market for it and I am just one small voice crying in the wilderness, but every once in a while something comes along that should stand on its own.

            A prime example is the new M1A. If they were to take it out of that poofed up ball dress and slipped her into something svelte, she would be awesome.

            How many more kids are going to very stupidly pull out something that looks like a Glock and gets blown away by law enforcement before the Snowflakes do something about it?


    • RR,

      I was just wondering if next spring when I open my cabin up, would you be interested in stopping over and getting rid of those pesky ladybugs and flies that always seem to find their way in over the winter? I’ll even let you deep seat pellets in your Izzy if you promise to stay away from the windows!

      I see the possibility for a guest blog subject: ” Mini Pesting in the Outback ”

      Have a good one!

      BobF



      • BobF,

        Something else. There are three countries in this World that I would truly like to visit, and all three of them are “neighbors”. I will likely never have that opportunity, but I sure would enjoy a bit of a walkabout.


        • RR,

          I would be hesitant to visit Mexico now. Too much mafia, crime, gangs, kidnapping and cartels.

          Mexico (just) passed a law that forbids DEA, CIA and HLS from doing work (within) Mexico any longer. Oh,.. a whole (new) batch of illegals are heading this way. They left Honduras a few days ago. Sure,.. open the borders, tear down the wall and no longer prosecute anyone. Yup,.. that will work.

          China’s leader is most pleased,.. as he states “that we have our old friends back”.

          Russia has been (deep) in about every government entity since March. Deep in. Undetected until very recently. Power grid, military, you name it. No one has yet to figure out the extent yet.

          Sad as it is to say,.. I will stay right here and not be traveling abroad. I would head to Canada if given the chance. I think that is relatively safe still?

          If anyone does not yet know that we are already neck deep in doo-doo, just wait,… the doo-doo dump truck is backing up right now. I pray that something changes.

          Chris



  8. BB

    My HyScore Diana 35 is also consistent. Group sizes vary very little. Oddly enough I find myself shooting the wandering variable guns more. Always looking for the magic hold, pellet, bag, trigger pull, optics, etc.

    My theory is those guns which deliver day in and day out are not much affected by shooter variation.

    Deck


  9. BB, when does the pellet starts moving in relation to where the piston is during the shot cycle. The pellet weight affects the firing behaviour of the airgun. Have you any xray videos of an airgun shooting a pellet? You probably don’t need any, but if deep seated maybe the pellet starts moving sooner, and leaves the barrel sooner, less time for an aimed shot to be disrupted by my shaky hold.
    Guns can be entertainment, but they are not entertainment in the same way as say, a burlesque show. Gun handling is a learned behaviour, it’s not instinctive. It needs to taught, just like raising a child, after the instinctive part, the parents have to shown how. It’s the same for learning, we need to be shown how to learn. We get to choose who we hunt with. Hopefully, it not based on politic.
    Rob


  10. B.B.,

    Now you have done it!
    I remember the last round of Pellet Seating Depth wars!

    It was back in the closing days of the 2nd Millennium and many pellets were expended and all too many bolt probes were savaged by far to many Ham Fisted DIY “machinists” to count. That time the story went that you needed to not block the TP (Transfer Port) to get both best accuracy and MV (Muzzle Velocity) along with smooth gas flow behind the pellet! Others tried to talk up rifling engagement and pellet engraving and a host of other malarkey (Biden favorite word) spread thick on everyone and everywhere!

    Check out bullet Rifle Seating Depth and everything that IS and IS NOT really known about it by our Firearm brethren.

    shootski


  11. B.B. and All,

    I’ve been reluctant to bring it up, given that it’s off-topic and this is a place many of us go to forget the world’s troubles, not discuss them. But on the other hand, this seems like a place I can share with friends who will understand.

    For some days now I have been grieving over a man many around the world but especially in the U.S. held up as one of the best among us, Charley Pride. Charley died of covid-19. He was up there in age, but anyone who has seen him perform in the past few years knew he likely had many good years left to enjoy life. He left us too soon. I had to say it here. I’m sorry if I am being off-base by doing so, but our losing Charley to covid has moved me more than any of the others to die from covid since my mom.

    Charley Pride, R.I.P.

    Michael




  12. B.B.,

    Well Mr. Enabler I hope you ae having a wonderful day!

    My AV-46M arrived this afternoon. The cardboard box (inside) came through in great shape as did everything that was inside. Two front sight plates and one combination rear sight plate and the pistol itself. Did you notice that something is missing? There is NO Owner’s Manual! And on the Compression Tube it clearly states… Warning: Before using read Owner’s Manual…

    What am I to do? What am I to do!

    Pyramid is CLOSED today so i left a message and asked for an Owner’s Manual.

    It looks great and the Grip Stock fits my XXL Paw near perfect; only time and some large number of minutes holding for dry fire and actual shooting will allow me to map the spots that MAY need some very minor reductions.
    This is a BIG Grip Stock!

    I need it to warmup a bit before I hang a target on the trap.

    More soon.

    shootski


  13. Twotalon,

    Thank you for that reminder but before I pulled the trigger I had already done the download. I was just trying to remember how a Newb would react to NO MANUAL ;^)

    Not to steal B.B.’s Thunder but he better put the first 10 into the BLACK…on a 10m air rifle target!
    I ran one dry patch from breech to muzzle and it was clean.
    Then i tested for function with a Blank PUFF and about 20 Dry fires. I next used H&N 5.25gr/0.34g Match Green for the first 10 one hand standing at 10 meters…

    …this thing CAN SHOOT Right Out Of The BOX!

    I need to get rid of one “hot spot” right thumb joint but I’m willing to wait before I carve or sand the Gip Stock for a few more 100s of dry fire and pellets.

    Thanks again for the reminder I just want a hard copy of the Owner’s Manual for the Box. If this keeps shooting like this I’m going to get a Custom Wood Presenttion Box for it. I will probably get a ATA box for it too for trips on aircraft.

    shootski



    • Benji-Don,

      It shoots 10 shot cloverleaf pinwheels, unrested, with H&N Finale Match Light 7.87gr/0.51g 4.50mm head diameter pellets. I had to do it twice to believe it! Even after a mug of Espresso and a slice of Dark Chocolate cake this evening! The Leponto Brandy de Jerez probably helped.

      shootski


      • Shootski,

        Glad you are happy. Can’t wait for mine to show up.

        I should mine the lead in my pellet trap before my pistol shows up, it is getting too heavy to carry.

        Don




            • Benji-Don,

              Since you own an Izhmash 46M you know better than i do! All I know is that i kept backing away from buying one all too many times way back when. At a minimum it would have been something to let friends and those family members (you know the type that every family is “blessed” with…) from asking to shoot my 10m PCPs. This is built like Brick Outhouse (alternate term used or family blog) according to the design Philosophy of GOOD-ENOV! I mean no disrespect since i am a firm believer in the Theory that Good Enough beats Best almost without exception!

              shootski


  14. B.B., and Esteemed Readership,

    Tom said, “There is a whole lot of testing to be done, but in the several hours I have had with it so far I have to say that it is. In fact, it’s going to surge ahead of the IZH just a little.”

    Folks B.B. was SOFT SELLING!

    shootski is going to climb way out on a limb on this one!
    If you have given half a thought to buying the AV-46M you need to decide PRONTO! This pistol is going to sell like CRAZY once the word gets out on just how much you get for the money. Even if you want a Left handed one you can always get one later or an aftermarket Lefty Grip Stock or better still start down the road to true pistol shooting using both/either of your hands!

    These AV-46M WILL be out of stock for a long time unless the bean counters were much smarter than usual and ordered excessive amounts!

    I have nothing to gain from this post folks other than to tell my fellow readers that this is the real deal.

    shootski


  15. Hello.
    I must raise my hand as the one who started this whole thing off .
    My friends F.E.G Telly Relum would not fire the Gamo pellets it was being fed. Being curious I had a look and discovered that the pellets needed a helping hand on there way. This is a low power 70’s springer rifle! I ended up buying one for myself to fettle, which I did. I gave up on the Gamo pellets and went to H&N flat tip pellets. They seemed to go well with a bit of prodding. Then H&N field target trophy. The trophies need a bit more of a prod. So the “accuracy” point may actually have been a slip of the tongue. They are “faster”: Less poke less fast, more poke more fast. Now I have no other way to test speed other than by ear and A/B testing. A is taking it’s time and B is pretty quick. Maybe BB can try the test with a chrony? and on a low power rifle? Obviously a big power rifle is going to push lead down the bore with no thoughts at all, where as the tiddlers … well they get a bit huffy about things. So I thought about the amount of pellet being used as a drive band and the shape of that etc. and thinking is good! and as I have slowly become aware of: all pellets are not the same! ( Picture of my humble pellet collection: Gamo ???, H&N Field target trophy and H&N flat tip . The snails ate the label off the gamo tin… before my time. ) Erm, so yes. Sorry about the fuss! and yes I do poke the pellets down 40mm or so. They do go faster! ( Not on the CF-S though ). Robert.


    • Robert,

      I for one am glad that you did bring it up. We do a fair bit of arm chair engineering here all of the time.

      It may be that the piston is allowed to come forwards in one swift motion (with deep seating) and skip/reduce the “bounce” part of the shot cycle? Too bad you don’t have a chrony to verify at least what appears to be working for your particular set up.

      Thanks again,… Chris


    • Robert,

      “So the “accuracy” point may actually have been a slip of the tongue.”,……… maybe not. After (repeated) testing and group measurements,… you should be able to tell if the accuracy is better with deep seating. Also, if faster,.. the point of impact (POI) should be higher. Further conformation could moving the target out more to see if groups worsen, stay the same or get better.

      I have a 499 bb gun (rifle) and did a spring modification to it. I boosted the fps by 150. The groups at 24′ stayed the same, if not better. At 42′, the groups were significantly better and raised the POI 2″ (maybe 3″),.. as best I recall.

      So,.. there is other ways to address the “accuracy” question without the use of a chrony.

      Chris


    • RobertA,

      If I’m thinking right your act of pushing the pellets that deep allow them to bypass the initial resistance met by pellets when coming from the leade to the bore. This allows them to have a relatively higher velocity since there is less resistance for them to overcome. This would be especially so if the pellet head and skirt size is slightly larger than the bore. You have practically resized them to the bore diameter by pushing them in that deep.

      Siraniko


    • RobertA,

      Thank you for the In Depth (pun intended) background information that really gets into (yet another really BAD pun) and cleans up much of the question of WHY?
      It is all about Obturation and your push technique must apparently avoid distortion of the pellet shape that happens in firearms when the Jump is significant.

      Thank you,

      shootski


      • Shootski,

        I believe there is more to it than obturation, although that is at the crux of the matter. I believe it depends on the gun, the leade, and the pellet. There are too many variables to cipher.

        On low powered airguns i have had pellets stick in the lead for an observable time before they take off down the barrel. Some have not even moved at all. My Beman P17 is a good example of that. What really brought it home though was my testing with low pressure air around 100 psi. I think with low pressure air even thin skirt pellets are not forced into the rifling groves. The pellets that stuck seemed to be where the head touched the rifling. Getting the pellet skirt fully into the rifling seems to be best, past that I don’t know.

        If I ever put my low pressure valve in a gun it would be a good platform to test deep seating.

        My 46m does not care for seating the pellet at all. It is more accurate with pushing the pellet just past flush with my finger.

        I think the higher power guns actually tend to do better when the pellet is pushed into the rifling and obturated by the air pressure. In spring piston guns air flow harmonics comes into play more so deep seating the pellet can have more of an effect on the overall gun harmonics and accuracy.

        Just my ruminating base on observation.

        Don


        • Benji-Don,

          That was what I forgot to pass on!
          The AV-46M is the same! Well, at least with the pellets so far.

          I think we are always faced with: “…too many variables to cipher. So we eliminate, practically, as many as we can and then follow Gunfun1’s Sage advice and just have some FUN shooting!

          shootski


  16. Hello!
    The pellets, when deep seated, are free to slide easily. The hump of “stiction” has been over come and they will react to air pressure accordingly. ( How the pellet travel, piston travel, pressure build up etc plays out I have no idea ) It is possible the pellet is out of the bore before the piston is reaching the end of it’s travel, avoiding the piston bounce… or how about this: the pellet is already moving when the pressure in the bore etc reaches it’s maximum therefore it’s friction coefficient is at it’s lowest and so it is more efficient. Possibly there is more hydrodynamics going on that is not so obvious. Who knows! It would not surprise me if there is a very real correlation between all matters, that can conspire to create the most efficient system, with bigger, badder, bolder not necessarily being as good as you might think. Are those high power guns really that efficient? If my little F.E.G has xyz power and puts out a pellet at n FPS what is it’s efficiency? Will increasing the power ( bigger springs ) increase or decrease efficiency? How about increasing the over all size? A bigger gun might be less efficient because it has not followed the rules closely. What are the rules? I am essentially wondering all these things from looking directly at a problem and wondering what is going on. The FEG could not fire the gamo pellet at all. But with some help it really could. Is there some simple reasoning staring me in the face and I cannot see it? Or is this simple issue that has been looked at many many times. IE. How do you calculate the size of a drive band on a large shell to get the best efficiency? Is more propellant better? Small things versus large things: these are basic psychical phenomena that developers of tools have to be aware of. Rambling here but heck. Science! Hydrodynamics is amazing, from pistons to rivers to air planes to the weather, and back! The physical world is amazing! Robert.


    • Robert,

      You mentioned rivers and hydrodynamics? I spent my career modeling water and sediment. Loved the modeling but the politics made me crazy.

      I think we are mostly on the same page with pellet seating.

      Don


      • B.D.
        In one sentence can you sum up your findings? Ok you can stretch to a paragraph if needed.
        Did you try modelling politics? That must be a thing, right? and, I met this chap once who was investigating beach cusps, he could never adequately explain why. I guess people get attracted to weird things. Weird in the “I am not sure why this is so” kind of weird. In fact I am not even sure why I am even here. I guess there is some Zen kind of focus that is entrancing, to a degree. When shooting that is. Look it’s really hot and I am considering drinking a cold beer. Actually it’s not in the fridge. Darn. Merry Xmas! Robert.


        • Robert,

          Water flows downhill and can be muddy!

          Beach cusps, that must have been quite a while ago. I am sure there are plenty of folks modeling politics, not me. The shooting Zen is real. You may want to turn the heater down and put the beer in the fridge.

          Merry Christmas, and a Great New Year!
          Don



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