HW 97 – Part 3

by B.B. Pelletier

Photos and test by Earl “Mac” McDonald

Part 1
Part 2

The HW97 is an attractive air rifle.

Today is the day many of you say you have been waiting for. Today, Mac reports on the accuracy he got with the HW97. His first comment on this day’s report was, “I knew this thing could shoot. New as it is, performance is great!” I think you will agree when you see the results.

Remember, Mac is shooting at 30 yards outdoors. He mounted the same Leapers 4-16×56 scope that he used in the HW50S test. Also, remember that Mac used EVERY BRAND of .177 pellet he had on hand, so there are some targets that aren’t as good. Since he doesn’t have the pellets you all recommended — and that was a raft of pellets — he isn’t going to be able to conduct those individual additional tests everyone recommended. What you see here is what he has available.

Three pellets didn’t do well
Like any other airgun, the HW97 has its likes and dislikes among pellets. And Mac tested it with good quality pellets. I think this part of the test is valuable for everyone, because it reminds us that things don’t always work out the way we feel they should, even with the finest airguns.

Crosman Premier heavies
Hands-down the Crosman Premier 10.5-grain pellet was the worst pellet of those tested in this rifle. It was so bad that I won’t even show you the target, because some people look at the pictures without reading the words, then dash off to their favorite forum to spread the word that “such-and-such a rifle sucks.” Mac got vertical stringing and a 10-shot group that measured 1.3 inches between the centers of the two widest shots.

For those who do read, you’ll remember that Mac complained about how hard these pellets were to load in Part 2. He had to use a flat stick to force them flush with the breech. Obviously, that’s too much pressure.

RWS Hobbys
The RWS Hobby pellet printed a group of 10 in 0.73 inches with a called flier. Again, not a good pellet for long-range work, and no targets will be shown. Wadcutters are seldom good for tight groups after 25 yards, anyway.

Beeman Kodiaks
I was surprised to learn that Beeman Kodiaks were also unimpressive in the HW97. That’s because in the TX200, to which we’ve been comparing this rifle all along, the Kodiak is one of the better pellets. But the TX is also several foot-pounds more powerful than the HW97, which I think might represent the biggest difference between the two. Ten Kodiaks went into a group measuring 0.67 inches between the widest centers.

Other pellets were exemplary!
Now, we come to the pellets that really performed in this rifle. The pellets that made Mac say things like, “I think this rifle is as accurate as my TX!” and “I really like this one!” As I’ve noted, Mac did not have several of the pellet types recommended by you readers, so the list of what works well in the HW97 is actually a lot longer than it seems.

H&N Finale Match for rifles
I mentioned that wadcutter pellets are not known for their accuracy beyond about 25 yards, and Mac was shooting 10-shot groups at 30 yards, so it came as a surprise that H&N Finale Match rifle pellets put 10 into a group measuring just 0.58 inches between centers.

Ten H&N Finale Match wadcutters went into this 0.58-inch group at 30 yards. This is phenomenal performance for a wadcutter at this range.

PLEASE TAKE NOTE: The Finale Match target is a perfect demonstration of why 10-shot groups are far more revealing than 5-shot groups for the true accuracy of a pellet. Please notice the two small groups within the target. Either of those two, which just happen to be 5 shots apiece, would be sized about one-third as large as the overall group Mac recorded.

Crosman Premier 7.9-grain pellets
The Crosman premier 7.9-grain pellet is nearly always among the top pellets in a Weihrauch springer. This time, they placed third, with 10 shots making a 0.45-inch group at 30 yards. There were no called fliers.

That’s what you want to see! Ten pellets ripping through the same hole at 30 yards. With performance like this, you should have no doubt where your next pellet will go. Ten shots in 0.45 inches with Premier lites.

JSB Exact Heavy
Now we’re on a roll! The JSB Exact heavy is a 10.2-grain pure lead pellet that is usually great in .177 PCPs, but this HW97 likes them as well. They were the No. 2 pellet that Mac tested. Nine shots went into a 0.38-inch group with one flier that Mac called. This is another pellet that you’ll always be able to trust in this rifle.

Mac labeled these as Jumbos on the target, but in .177 they’re actually labeled heavy on the tin. I confirmed with him that this was the pellet he used. Nine in a 0.38-inch group with one called flier. Another pellet for 97 owners.

By the way, Mac wanted me to mention something to you about that called flier. He says that sometimes, when shooting groups, he gets as many as 8 fliers in a 10-shot group. That’s a joke — of course!

JSB Exact lite
And the winner of this accuracy test was the 8.4-grain JSB Exact pellet that’s the lightest of the Exacts in .177. Ten pellets ripped through a single hole that measures 0.33 inches between the centers of the two pellets farthest apart.

That is what everybody’s talking about. That’s why I had no problem recommending the HW97 to anyone.

So, the HW 97 turns out to be a very surprising air rifle. Surprising to everyone except those who own one and know what it can do. Mac also noted that the rifle is not that sensitive to hold and will even shoot well when rested directly on a sandbag — a trait it shares with the TX200.

The bottom line is that we have a real winner here. Mac is even evaluating the addition of this rifle to his own collection.

102 thoughts on “HW 97 – Part 3

  1. Damn good shooting! Especially for a springer without recoil absorbing mechanism! Really impressive.

    And Mac’s hard work showed that it really matters what food you feed it. Thanks. I’m not surprised at the Hobby’s, but the Premier heavies are really a disappointment. But if they were that oversized for the bore, you’re going to get different patterns on the heads as you mash them into the breech.

    Bring back sized pellets!!



  2. rikib yes am still here (for now)but it is better for me not to be part of this blog any more ,i dont wanna be synonym for “off topic” and i dont really need this(already i have police protection so my nerves are tin ) -there is too much turbulation in my life right now and yes we ll keep in touch ;)….i am not loged for e-mail but i will log in today so i ll let you know :)


  3. Milan,
    Don’t go because of one person’s inappropriate comment. You have a lot to offer here from another side of the world, a totally different aspect. I’ve never checked but I’m pretty sure that more than 50% of things that end up being discuss are “off” the original topic. If you really feel you need to go then I hope you find someway to keep in touch. email rikib@att.net

    rikib


  4. Anything you disagree with is inappropriate.I remember bending over backwards to make you realise people went to alot of trouble to answer your airgun question.A few months later,your jumping on me for correcting safe distance data.It’s ALL up to you??


    • Correcting distance data when ???is it when i said that Wikipedia isn t always right ? Than i said that Diana 34 can be leathal up to 300 meters (it is on the box i have just read it ),-jumping on to you no my friend you are not right :/ i dont even know what are you talking about???’


  5. In Europe where the HW97k is one of the popular rifles for spring Field Target, there are only 2 competitive pellets among shooters: the JSB Exact, and the H&N Field & Target Trophy (both group best with the 4.52mm diameter variation).


    • Arnold

      I second that ;) JSB Exact Heavy 4,52 is THE pellet for me. My rifle’s LW barrel seem to like it, so my best groups were made with Heavies. I also tried H&N FTTs, but they seemed to me less “groupy”.

      duskwight


  6. Wow. The HW97K and Mac can really shoot. But I would have expected that from this gun.

    However I will be really surprised to see that kind of groups with the B-3. At the same range with the same shooter maybe close to 3/4 inch groups best.

    My question is how hard and expensive would it be to tune the B-3 to shoot like the HW97K? Or is that possible?


    • pcp4me

      Actually, I’s better to build a new one from the start :)
      However, if you want to do so, you must remember – each step towards small groups is shorter than previous and more expensive ;)
      I guess that steps for B-3 should look like that, prices are max and given the way they are here :

      - a new barrel (CZ or LW blank ~100 Euro)
      - a new trigger group (guess one’ll have to compute it, them CNC-machine it, then harden it right way and then assemble and fine tune it, so ~200 Euro)
      - polishing and honing cylinder and I suppose machining new precise-made piston (~150 Euro)
      - re-finishing of all of the surfaces and I guess hardening some of them (~150 Euro)
      - new, better wooden stock and bedding (~400 Euro)
      - elimination of rattling rivets/pins etc, smoothing of all edges etc (~50 Euro)
      I suppose it’ll make B-3 huge better, but I’m afraid closer, not near HW97. They are different class by the way they are built.

      duskwight


      • Duskwight,

        Too expensive for my blood. I was thinking more of working with what we have and making a few changes.

        New stock and barrel not needed. Stock won’t contribute any at all or very little to improving the accuracy and if necessary could be glass bedded. It could also be modified with an adjustable comb and butt stock! Barrels of Chinese guns are surprisingly accurate.

        I was thinking more like disassemble, deburr, hone, replace springs with a Macari and seal with better one also. Custom spring guide and top hat, correct greases and tars. If a Charlie da Tuna trigger won’t fit, then do every thing I can to improve the existing one.

        Reassemble, top it with a good scope and check accuracy.

        I would only as a last resort replace the barrel.


    • pcp4me,

      You will read about the B3-1 tomorrow. And no, it is impossinle to tune a B3-1 to perform anything like an HW 97. In fact, that is the point I’m trying to make. It cannot be done.

      Years ago I tried to tune a Chinese spring rifle up to European standards. I had to replace the barrel with one from Lothar Walther and I had to do a lot of work to the action, and it was still a Chinese air rifle when I finished. It shot faster and more accurately, but the refinement of the European spring gun was totally lacking. Even if I had installed a thousand-dollar custom stock, the metal would still have looked poor.

      Chinese springers like the B3-1 are good for learning how to work on airguns, but even then they are not the best. It’s much easier and safer to work on a Weihrauch rifle that has a threaded end cap than to work on a Chinese gun held together by pins.

      B.B.



      • Don’t forget your test of the BAM rifles that outshot your TX200. That is one of the most intriguing tests on record, and I would love to see it repeated without the bugs in the eyes.

        My B30 continues to show how much a good tune can improve a Chinese rifle. I wish Mac could test it to show what it’s capable of.

        Matt61


  7. About being ON or OFF topic :
    I think a youtube link once in a while is fine but I guess it can get a bit too much sometimes (around 20% of yesterday blog was music video and related chat). I think the secret is in the balance, I think one woulda been fine, 18 posts… a bit much.

    Now since we’re on the off topic topic… how’s that german shepard training going Rikib ? Twotalon are you ok we’ve haven’t heard from you in a while.

    Now I’m NOT telling anyone what they can or can’t do, or what they should or shouldn’t do, I’m just giving my advice.

    J-F


  8. Very nice review of a very nice air rifle, thanks! One question, the HW77 has a muzzle brake when one is not needed for cocking leverage. Is there sound attenuation properties in it? I was thinking since this rifle is similar in some respects to the TX 200 which has a shrouded barrel, perhaps the HW77 also has some silencing.



      • The wisdom of the Tx 200 is still unfolding: tuned better out of the box, shrouded barrel for quieter shooting, more powerful, less expensive. I don’t see how a future purchase of one can be avoided!


    • It’s not a muzzle-brake per se. As Tom noted, it’s a hollow tube, and with with a threaded end cap that can be removed with a hex key.

      It’s a sound moderator if you want to convert it into one. I did and it works great. In Europe/UK, it is a silencer.

      A B-3 will never be an HW97. The quality and gage (thickness & weight) of the steel components alone could not be duplicated by honing, greasing and tuning a B-3.


  9. pcp4me,

    The Charlie trigger will not fit. The trigger in the B3 is abysmally bad compared to the Rekord in the HW97. I’ve gone to some lengths to make a B3-1 shoot–including many of the tricks you were considering–and while they can be improved, there’s only so much one can do.

    The HW97, the HW98 and the TX200 are simply in another class in comparison.


    • derrick

      You’re right, B-3′s trigger action is not Gamo-Theoben type, so CDT’s upgrade won’t fit. It is a lot, lot worse and simplistic. That is why I mentioned new trigger in my post.

      duskwight


    • Derrick,

      Indeed they are. And out of my price range number one and ABYSMALLY heavy for me to shoot. I have arthritis and bursitis bad in both shoulders. Hang a 9.5 – 11 pound gun out supported mostly by left arm and left shoulder and instant pain!!! Not to mention the pain in the wrists and elbows from the bad arthritis there.

      So guns like the HW97, HW98 and TX200 are nixed for me.

      I need a gun which weighs in at no more than 7.5 pounds with a reasonable scope attached. A gun like say the Benjamin Disco. Light, more accurate than I can shoot, and the only thing it needs is a better trigger. IF some one could figure how to make a gun as light as the Disco with a trigger like the Marauder and a 6 – 10 shot magazine I would snap it up at twice the price of the Disco!!

      Or maybe they have? Any 1 have any info on the Sumatra 2500 carbine?



  10. Everyone,

    I’m the blog police :-) I’ve removed a number of comments that I felt were not helpful to anyone. I have some email addresses for those whose comments have been removed. If you have not rec’d a personal email from me and your comment has been deleted, please feel free to email me at edith@pyramydair.com to find out why. I’m more than happy to discuss this matter with you offline.

    Are off-topic posts allowed? Of course they are! But, let’s use common sense when doing so.

    Edith


  11. Obviously it’s not necessary for Mac to test a lot of pellets in the HW97. The groups Mac shot with the JSB 8.49 gr. Exacts and the JSB 10.2 gr. Exacts is proof that the legendary accuracy of the HW97 is well deserved.

    I think Mac should be happy he didn’t have any Beeman FTS/H & N FTT pellets on hand or he may have been pushed over the edge and forced to buy a HW97.

    There are five things that stand out in my mind in this terrific series that Mac did on the HW97:

    1-Weihrauch quality is still alive and well
    2-The HW97 isn’t very pellet picky
    3-The HW97 shoots well even when rested
    4-Mac is a very good friend
    5-Mac is a very good shot

    kevin


    • Kevin-

      As an HW97k shooter myself, I agree with you on every point. Mine shoots JSB pellets just like the one that Mac tested, and Beeman Field Target Specials (FTS) are even better.

      One difference between the HW97k and the TX200 doesn’t seem to have come out yet. When you cock the TX200, there are several pronounced clicks. Not owning a TX200, I am assuming that these clicks are related to a safety mechanism. When you cock the HW97k, there are no clicks. Just the sound of the sear engaging at the completion of the cocking stroke. While this isn’t an issue for target shooters, hunters will appreciate the quieter cocking cycle.

      There is also an obscure maintenance issue that I’ve encountered with my particular example. The muzzle brake/cocking lever latch is glued on, but not secured with a pin or a screw. Because of that, the small amount of torque during firing has a cumulative twisting effect on the muzzle brake. After several thousand rounds, the muzzle brake on my rifle was so cock-eyed that it was putting sideways pressure on the cocking lever and adversely affecting accuracy. I had to use a heat gun to break down the adhesive compound and straighten it. Once straightened, the point of impact shifted over an inch at only 10 meters! i have to do this about every thousand rounds now. Eventually, I will have to pull the muzzle brake off of the rifle and re-do the job with an appropriate thread locker. I know that this issue sounds like a pain, but the satisfaction of shooting the rifle makes it worth dealing with. I look at it kind of like keeping the stock screws tight.

      Regards,

      - Jim in KS


      • Jim in KS,

        I’m surprised to hear about the muzzlebrake issues. When did you buy your gun? If it it was some time ago, I wonder if Weihrauch has fixed that issue. Have you encountered other shooters who’ve had the same problem?

        Edith


        • Edith -

          My Beeman HW97k was purchased about two and a half years ago. I imagine that I’ve shot somewhere around 7 or 8 thousand pellets through it, all on the original spring and seal. I have no way of knowing if the problem with the muzzle brake has been addressed by Weihrach, as I have had no contact with them. My rifle started having problems about the same time that Beeman folded, so I just figured that I was on my own.

          The first thing that I noticed was that the point of impact was continually drifting in one direction, necessitating scope adjustment. The second thing that I noticed was that the cocking arm seemed to be misaligned with the latch, bearing heavily on one side. It was only after posting my problem on the yellow forum that “DaveG” suggested that I look at the alignment of the latch itself… and there it was. He then gave some specific instruction on how to get the muzzle brake straightened. I followed his advice, and solved the problem, but it just keeps twisting unless you pull the unit off of the barrel and re-do the adhesive. I just haven’t done that yet.

          After “DaveG” helped me on the yellow forum, I watched the thread to see if anyone else had encountered the same issue, but no one spoke up. I don’t attribute this to a flaw in the design or manufacture. I just shoot a lot.

          Regards,
          Jim in KS


        • Mine is about six years old and I noticed the same issue although less pronounced than Jim in KS noted. Someday, I’ll just heat it up, remove it and clean and re-glue it and all will be well. I may also lay-out a set screw retainer dimple in the barrel and drill & tap the mount or the tube.


      • Jim in KS,

        Fairly common problem especially with the newer HW97 cocking arm latch incorporated into the muzzlebrake.

        I’ve seen some milled/machined sleeves, rare earth type magnets and I think Paul Watts has a unique fix for replacing the cocking arm latch. Lots of unique “fixes” but the magnet seems the most unique:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ4lrd3Gi9Q

        kevin


    • and…

      6) It shoots well even with the forward stock screws loose (I’ve done it)
      7) The action is built like a vault
      8) It shoots from a rest extremely well


      • Jim in KS and Brian in Idaho,

        Before you mash your wood beyond a simple fix, why not consider some brass screw cups for your stock screws? Cheap (at this point) and easy fix. A quality gun like the HW97 certainly deserves them and if fired a lot needs them.

        I even put them on my mid powered springers.

        kevin


  12. B.B.

    I would take it that the looser fit of the 8.4 exacts is only due to the fit in the inleade rather than the bore itself.
    The fit of the .22 CP’s in my 48 still makes me nervous the way I have to push them to keep them from falling back out…..they fall in about flush.
    Yes, the terrible 48 with the cheap plastic trigger and the huge crude front sight was busting paint balls this morning from 22 yds from an improvised rest. I could hardly see those buggers.

    twotalon


    • twotalon,

      To the best of my knowledge, the Weihrauch barrel has no leade as you mention. The rifling begins right at the back of the breech. The JSB pellet is made from nearly pure lead, which makes it easier to load when compared to the Premier 10.5 that is made from hardened lead. That is the difference, I think.

      B.B.


      • B.B.
        I think I understand.
        It’s a subjective view of the force needed. If I felt a just snug fit with the head, then I would not categorize as loose….just snug. For a hard to push pellet I would call it tight or hard. It has to do with a particular feel of loading the pellet. Hard to describe what feels just right to me.

        twotalon


  13. Stingray,
    May I ask what was the deciding factor in choosing the Challenger over the Edge? I am being torn by the same choice and am not able to settle the issue.



  14. Milan, I don’t think anyone wants you to go…but…
    Yesterday for example the first 20 posts had nothing to do with air guns. A little much in my opinion. Someone stated ‘just scroll past’. But why should I have to? I come here for airgun and related info and chat. A bit of off-topic is great, it gives a ‘face’ so to speak of the members of this blog. But I’d hate to think someone left because they got tired of wading through stuff that has no interest to them.
    Just my two cents.


  15. The Springer Lives!
    Lots of really good things said about both the HW97 and TX200 on this side of the pond.
    At times like these I am glad to be broke so I am not forced to choose between them :)
    I did make a promise though my next rifle would be a Weihrauch so….?

    Milan:
    Did you know I was an ‘off topic’ guy and often in a controversial manner as well.Not saying that you have posted anything controversial I may add.
    I to felt the need to resign myself from the forum but that isn’t what the good people here wanted then and I am sure not now in your case.
    Rikib has the right idea by forwarding his e-mail address and that is also how I keep in contact with other forum members on ‘off topic’ subject as well.
    A win win situation :)
    Here is my e-mail: dave.peat@hotmail.com
    DaveUK


    • Dave thank you -i see that you are good friend! My domestic situation is well you know _BAD_ your advices helped me a lot -so i ll keep in touch with you


  16. I chose the Challenger because of: looks, more adjustable features, ergonomics, dual fuel and most of all it needs only 2,000 lbs. of air- easier pumping for an ole swabbie like me.

    I think the Edge has better sights but I already have an AirForce diopter sight set so I can install it if needed. I just shoot at my 10 meter back-yard range. Have not yet entered a tournament… maybe this will encourage me to do so in the future.

    I would also appreciate recommendations for pellets from Challenger owners.

    From the reviews I read the accuracy and trigger are comparable.

    I would like to hear the reasons why others chose the Edge vs. the Challenger.
    I haven’t sent my check yet, so I can still be persuaded to change my mind.

    Both, in my opinion, are excellent 10 meter sporter rifles that is why the choice is hard to make.

    Cheers,
    Stingray


    • Not here to “persuade” you on your decision (persuasion implies reluctance, and reluctance implies “you told me too…”)

      If both guns are equal in your eyes, then longevity of the model by the maker and flexibility or ease of maintenance may be the only remaining factors to consider?

      As an example, I think I saw the Challenger on clearance sale somewhere on the web recently. What I don’t know is… was that the distributors clearance or Crosmans?


      • Brian,

        I’ve seen Challengers on closeout as well. However, all have been the 2000 CO2 model that preceded the current Challenger, even if they’re not clearly labeled as such. Looks like a nice sporter – would be interesting to see how it compares to the S200T, which I believe is also sport-class legal.

        Jay



    • Stingray,

      I’ve read several reviews that indicate that the Challenger is MUCH more accurate than the Edge. Several people claim to be able to shoot groups that are essentially the size of a single pellet hole at 30 feet. Depending on the pellet, the Edge holds between 7 and 9 ring size groups. No one has been able to hold 10 ring, let along single pellet size groups.

      Here’s a link with some discussion,

      http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=22790

      The bottom line is that I think you made the right choice. I would have done the same.

      Regards,
      Victor


      • Oh, one more thing. Check out the second page for some pictures of how the Challenger does with R10 lights versus R10 Heavies. At the very end, you’ll see some interesting comparisons with different pellets between several guns including the following; Walther LG-300, Crosman Challenger, and Air Force Edge.

        Victor


        • I think it’s important to note that with RWS R-10 pellets, this particular shooter doesn’t do much better with the Challenger over the Edge.

          Deciding factors still include things like the physical size of the shooter. The Edge seems to be a better fit for a smaller person.



            • VG,

              The cost is a significant factor if the intent is to use the gun for sporter class competition, which places a limit on what it can cost to $525. Otherwise, spending an extra $400 can make sense. But if the Challenger 2009 shoots very close to a $2K or $3K gun, then it may not make sense to spend the extra $400. That extra $400 could go a long way towards buying other shooting related equipment, including a whole lot of pellets (including different ones to see which one shoots best).

              However, for a lot of people, budget is a huge factor, and knowing that a great performer can be purchased within Sporter Class cost restrictions is very nice! My guess is that for most Americans, $500 dollars is considered to be a lot for an air-gun.

              Regards,
              Victor


            • BTW, the Air Arms S400 MPR looks like a very nice rifle. I prefer heavy over light rifles. If I wasn’t interested in Sporter Class competition, but couldn’t justify something like a FWB, Anschutz, or Steyr, and the S400 MPR felt better (in my case the extra weight adds stability) then I would consider the S400 MPR over the Challenger.

              The bottom line is that each user has unique requirements and goals, and the Challenger 2009 has a lot to offer.

              One last thing, I can imagine that the Edge is better for a smaller shooter because it is lighter. I had an opportunity to pick one up at the Shot Show and was impressed with the feel, but again, I prefer the heavier Challenger 2009. My daughter would most likely prefer the Edge.

              I know first hand how important weight is for these types of things. I could never shoot the kinds of scores that I shot with my Anschutz 1413 free-style rifle with my Anschutz 1407 standard rifle. My free-style rifle was probably 5 lbs heavier. I had the same experience when competing in archery in college. I performed much better with a heavier bow.

              I’m fairly strong and big-boned, and for me the extra weight gave me more stability. For someone not so strong, the extra weight would have the opposite affect as it would cause severe fatigue.

              The bottom line is that there is no one gun that fits all.


  17. It would be nice to have an ongoing long-term comparison between the Edge and the Challenger in terms of personal shooting experience and data on how they are doing in competition. This is shaping up to be one of the great rivalries in airgunning like Ali-Frazier.

    It finally happened. After 100,000 odd pellets, the back of my Crosman 850 pellet trap has been blasted loose from the frame. I have plenty of duct seal in the trap, but apparently, the accumulated force of all the pellets forced the back off so that it is only attached by the stickiness of the duct seal. I’m going to upgrade to the Champion trap that can handle the .22 LR. I’m not sure when I passed the 100,000 pellet mark. My records indicate that I’m a few thousand away but I didn’t keep my records from the outset of shooting.

    Matt61


    • Matt61:
      100,000 pellets!WOW!
      You must have seen the good,bad an ugly when it comes to pellets.
      I have had to conserve my good pellets for emergencies lol, so bought a tin of cheap .22 SMK pointed’Spitfires’ recently.
      If you like your pellets loose in the barrel,great,these are like slinging a sausage up an alley :)
      DaveUK


      • DaveUK

        Just like the V for victory hand signal, your last statement has a myriad of implications. Lets keep it clean. This is an airgun blog. ;-)

        cheers Dave



          • In Fairness to SMK they do make a good ‘Rocker’ type pellet trap.
            Like the Gamo’s but longer,with 4 vermin shaped paddles and a Dollar size disc in the middle to re-set the targets.
            I got my dad one he liked mine so much.
            If you don’t fancy walking up and down re setting targets ‘Rocker’ pellet traps are great.
            DaveUK


            • DaveUK

              I have a Gamo resetting target trap and really enjoy it. The problem is that at the range that I shoot it at, I have only one gun, the Daisy 953, that won’t put a serious hurting on it.

              My older brother happens to be a metal-worker however. I emailed him a picture of the .22lr trap from PA’s site that will catch rimfire bullets.

              He built a pellet trap for me in his spare time with scrap metal.

              I shot my TX200 into it. Not even a mark. I shot a few hundred .22 cal pellets from the Diana 52 into it. No dents. I shot a Marauder in .22 several hundred times. No effect.

              I got frustrated and shot my Walther P22 pistol into it. After two magazines, nary a dent.

              Then in a moment of uncharacteristic recklessness/exuberance, decided to fire a few rounds from the Glock 19 9mm into it. I must admit, it dented the metal in the back just a tad. It also embedded copper fragments into my ceiling, more than just a tad! God love forgiving women. Yes, I let the cats out first.

              I have been trying to convince him to start an airgun target business on the side, with traps, spinners, and resettable field targets or silhouettes. He is very good at what he does.


    • Matt,

      My Gamo cone pellet trap is somewhere along that way :) It is all bloomed up and covered with bulges, some welded joints are off. I wonder how the paint is still holding. Mine went through about 15K or so kicks from 20J Heavies, but not a single pellet through. I wonder – should I “work” it till its end in next 100, or 300 or even 500 pellets?
      Well, I think I should search for a replacement, so can anyone recommend something 20J or I guess .22-proof for me to search on Ebay?

      duskwight


  18. B.B.,

    I was surprised you did not reply to the points I tried to make yesterday. I take it your silence implies a tacit acceptance of my position.

    Regards,
    AlanL



      • B.B.,

        ‘Twas after you got back. You told me to “get real” with regards to my comments on the delivery of the Marlin Cowboy. I responded more or less as follows:

        I am fully aware that Pyramyd is not in control of the Marlin’s delivery. However, you have missed my point entirely, and this is due to the fact that you missed a long and involved exchange of comments on this topic that dates back to the time you were in the hospital. The nuances and suggestions resulting from this discussion concerning customer service were going to be passed on by Edith to “the highest levels” of Pyramyd for consideration.

        The Marlin’s delivery is not the point. The point in short is that I am paying for shipping, and that forcing me to split my order in order to obtain the in-stock items also forces me to pay double shipping, which I disagree with. It is entirely a matter of principle. Once the first “promised” delivery date passes, the responsibility for fulfilling (delivering) the in-stock items of the order in a timely manner passes to the vendor. Pyramyd unfairly keeps that burden upon the customer. THAT is the point of principle that I am trying to make. That is why I have not altered my order. Another potential consequence of this is that when my first out-of-stock item finally becomes available another item on my order that was in stock at the time of my order is now out of stock, further delaying delivery of my order. Then this policy of non-shipment leads to a perpetually rolling delay that results in an order never being delivered to the customer. I am in the process of proving the foolishness of this policy. Once the first promised delivery date passes, it is unethical for me to be forced to break my order up and pay extra shipping when Pyramyd originally accepted my order and gave me a shipping date. It has Nothing to do with the delivery of the Marlin Cowboy itself, nor would I ever imply that a postponed delivery date makes a liar out of you. I trust this point of principle is now clear to everybody.

        -AlanL


        • Alan,

          I have never heard of the policy that you espouse–that once a delivery date is missed the responsibility for shipping passes to the retailer. That’s a new one to me.

          I order from online retailers all the time and my delivery dates get missed regularly. While I admit this doesn’t please me, I’ve never seen the retailer offer to absorb the shipping costs. They just tell me that something is backordered and ask me what I want to do about it. I almost always take what they have and let the rest ship later. And I pay both shipping costs. This happens with books and films from Amazon all the time.

          So that’s what I think.

          B.B.


          • Conversely, PA (and Edith) intervened with Umarex on my behalf regarding shipping costs on a warranty failure of a Walther pistol. Long story, but short version is; I paid round trip postage once to service center, gun failed again on return, PA got involved, postage this time is paid by Umarex service center.

            Just to let people know that there are probably as many good stories as not so good ones?


            • PA is not perfect. But they are definitely the best company to deal with as far as online retailers that I have dealt with. This includes all range of products, not just airguns. If you are not happy with a purchase you can return it postage paid within 30 days for a refund. There are not many companies that offer a guarantee such as this. Even Crosman with their reputation for excellent customer service, will not provide a shipping label as PA does. Many online airgun retailers even refuse to answer the phone. Not so at PA. Their customer service without exception is excellent.

              Also PA hosts this wonderful blog for free, overseen by the two people in the world most qualified for the job.

              I understand AlanL’s frustration over a matter of principal. Principals are so lacking these days as to be maddening. But I also don’t think he will find a more satisfying online retailer for airguns.

              Certainly PA would love to be having Marlin BB guns flying off the shelf if they could get their hands on them. It makes no good business sense that PA would jerk us around. It is they who is being jerked around. There is no telling at this point what the reason for the delay is, but certainly PA is not behind it.

              If it were me, I would place the order sans the Marlin. When it eventually becomes available I would evaluate reviews for a awhile and then make a purchase accordingly. Maybe even order a Daisy 499 in the meanwhile.

              AlanL

              I understand your frustration. I am almost as stubborn as you ;^) But you should cast your evil eye on Crosman. Put the pressure on them, that is where the production delays are coming from.


              • And not that it may matter to this (now) lengthy tirade about the Cowboy but, the legacy factor of this BB gun either just went sky-high or it just tanked…

                NORTH HAVEN CT — The Marlin Firearms Co., one of the town’s top taxpayers, will start to lay off employees in May and will close by June 2011.

                The gun manufacturer’s employees were told Thursday that the jobs of 265 salaried and hourly workers would be eliminated over 18 months. Marlin traces its history back to 1870.


                • NO, NO, NO,

                  THAT’S TERRIBLE NEWS ABOUT MARLIN!!!!

                  What a shame, is the company closing? Not even being sold?

                  I bet these last guns off the line will be collector pieces…. Although the last new 1894 cowboys I bought were not close to the quality of the older ones I got at the pawn shop.

                  Sad day indeed..

                  Wacky Wayne


                  • Wayne,

                    They are moving their operations to Pennsylvania. Everything goes but the employees. Marlin must have it bad against Connecticut.

                    KA


        • I’m in retail photographic sales and often run into the same scenario as you’ve found yourself in Alan.
          But here’s the skinny from the other side of the coin. Someone places an order for equipment and we provide a delivery quote based on everything shipping at once. If we have everything in stock than in leaves the next day for the quoted price. If it turns out that something is out of stock than we contact the customer and give them the following options:
          1. ship when everything is in for the quoted price.
          2. ship what we have and charge accordingly, and then ship the backordered item when in
          also applying a shipping charge.
          I know it seems unfair to you, but consider our stance (or PA’s for that matter).
          Most reputable companies don’t make money on shipping…we charge the customer what the carrier charges us.
          Now unfortunately, the economy being what it is worldwide companies don’t stock things the way they used to…instead of 100′s of one kind of air rifle sitting on the shelf at Crosman, they may have 10′s. It just doesn’t pay to have unsold merchandise sitting on the shelf.
          And sometimes they get caught short.
          But that is not the retailers fault, and they should really not be the one you are pissed of at…you should be taking it Crosman.
          What companies like Pyramid offer is exceptional service (witness this blog). Yet the consumers still expect them to be competitive with the likes of Walmart and other big box retailers that offer very little knowledge or customer support, which doesn’t come free (meaning extra staff that have more knowledge than the average student working part time).
          Sometimes you can’t have it all.


          • B.B. & CSD,

            I just can’t adjust to that philosophy. It’s simply not right that the customer should pay for multiple shipping when a vendor or supplier cannot deliver as promised. When items are clearly stated to be backordered and a separated shipping option is offered, then fine, let the customer pay twice, AT WILL. But if the customer says ‘no, I’ll wait’ and then the promised date passes, a reputable vendor that is concerned about providing good customer service should ship the in-stock items on that date and later ship the delayed item at ITS expense, and simply chalk it up to overhead, or cost of doing business in the interest of excellence in customer service. That’s how my company does business, and my customers are happy customers or I do what it takes to make them so, period.

            -AlanL


            • Alan, I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you’re company isn’t as big as Pyramid. (or the company I work for which has 9 locations and sends out a great deal through the mail).
              I’ll speak for the company I work for only.
              We are to a degree at the mercy of the economy I mentioned earlier.
              Case in point. A respected manufacturer came out with a very good binocular last year. We ordered over a hundred of them and were told by the company they would ship in the fall.
              A lot of the orders were internet orders.
              The fall came and went.
              Christmas came and went.
              Then the manufacturer informed us that the problem had been that Cabela’s had placed an order that took up their entire manufacturing run…they just forgot to tell us.
              So…a hundred internet orders. On a binocular that to stay competitive with the likes of Cabelas or WallyMart we make about $20 on.
              Shipping (insured is the only way we deliver) will average $12.
              You’re not going to stay in business for long making $8 on a $150 item.
              If it’s a few times it definitely pays to be nice…but for a company the size of the one I work for (or Pyramid I imagine) we’d literally be talking thousands of dollars.
              And at the profit margin we as consumers expect (again, matching the WallyMarts of the world) you get your choice…higher prices (meaning less people will buy), decreased service (meaning less people will buy) or trying, as we do (and again I’ll include Pyramid) to give the best possible service at competitive pricing…but not being able to give the cow away with the milk (so to speak).


  19. Kevin,

    I am going to follow in your footsteps and put the 54 up for sale on the yellow in the coming days. My inclination is to offer the gun, scope, mount, case, etc as a package. I’d appreciate your advice, or any thoughts you’d care to share.

    -AlanL


    • AlanL,

      My thoughts on placing the 54 up for sale on the yellow:

      1-Take multiple pictures, especially close ups of any damage, and post those with your ad
      2-Make sure you post your email address with the ad. On the yellow you have the ability to do this when you log in by typing your email address and by clicking on your highlighted name it will open a window with your email address
      3-Specify in the ad what you would be willing to trade for or if you’re not interested in trades at this time
      4-Publish velocity with certain pellets if you have that info on your specific gun
      5-Offer the gun with a package price (including gun, scope, mount, rings, case, etc.) and then state a price with the gun only (no scope, mount, rings or case). Stipulate that you either will sell the scope prior to the gun selling or you will not sell the scope until the gun is sold. Remember to specify if your prices include shipping or if that’s extra.
      6-Pay the shippers insurance out of your own pocket. Well worth it.

      kevin


  20. Update on the Logun Solo or Airgun Purgatory

    Last Wednesday some of you may recall that I decided to order the pre-owned Logun Solo in .22 from PA. My hope was I would then make the 45 minute drive to the Pyramid Air on Thursday and secure my price.

    Unfortunately, I was told that I would not be permitted to pick up the rifle until Friday, so I gave in and let them ship it FedEx knowing that the chances of someone being home to sign for the package where about the same as hitting the lotto. I predicted I would be lucky to have it in a week.

    They shipped the Solo the very next day on Thursday afternoon and since I am close to PA the first delivery attempt was made at 11:45 on Friday. Unfortunately, my family and I were attending a funeral so back into the truck went my package. Saturday the second try was made, but I was at work and the wife took the girls to a Justin Beaver concert in Columbus. Sigh, another sticker on the door. Sunday is a day of rest so the next opportunity was on Monday, but for some reason no attempt was made, perhaps they saw someone was actually home and sped off smirking.

    Today, according to my third sticker they missed my wife by about 4 minutes. Double sigh. On the plus side, after the third attempt the package is supposed to be held for pick up, but I guess the FedEx guy or gal wanted to cut me a break so he marked it as only the 2nd try. Scream.

    If PA sounds close, the lovely FedEx Port Jackson facility that has my girl is only 2 miles from my house. I drove past it on the way home from work today think about liberating her, but the fence and barbed wire seemed like too much to tackle on an empty stomach.

    I did however find a UPS package with Bushnell Legend 5-15X that I ordered for the Solo a couple days after rifle. Somehow it made its way from Virginia without issue. Since I could not mount it, I held it ala Captain Jack Sparrow and have to say I think it will work well. Heavier than the Hawke I had on the Cyclone at 17 ounces, but the AO turns much easier and it has a little more power. Not a compact scope and not a full blown target scope, it sits in the middle range. It would be nice if PA carried a larger scope selection.
    Well, that is it on the Solo for now.

    The HW97K is undoubtedly no more inherently accurate than any other HW Springer; it just is easier to shoot accurately. That makes it a wonderful rifle.

    AlanL,
    You usually do better if you sell a rifle and scope separately, but you will pay more in shipping. Eeek. : 0 )

    Volvo


    • Volvo,

      Sorry to hear the solo is still solo. On those occasions that a package must be signed for I use my business address. Our receptionist is good at answering the phone but better at signing for packages.

      Glad to hear the AO on your bushnell legend works well. The one I had you needed a pipe wrench to turn it. For the price the scope was ok otherwise.

      kevin


      • Kevin,

        I usually just send them to the UPS store, which charges $3.00 to take delivery, but the PA rep thought they might not take a FedEx package. My mistake was in not challenging that logic. Anyway, I think tomorrow might be the day. As far as my secretary, my wife won’t let me have one…dang it.

        I looked at the Burris you recommended, but thought a little more weight would be okay on this rifle since it is 37” and 5.7 lbs. It should still end up right around 7 lbs when all is said and done. (I think the reason theses stubby guys are not listed as carbines is that in the UK everyone adds another 6 inches to them)


  21. Kevin,

    Is there any way to edit posts here? As soon as I posted my last comment I noticed several typos as usually, and thought you being the pro here would know.

    Thanks,

    Volvo


    • Volvo,

      You can’t edit your comments post-publication. I’ve asked for that enhancement but there are some other higher-priority tasks being handled at this time.

      I can edit anything because I’m an administrator of the blog. If there’s something really crushing and terribly embarrassing, I can change it for you. However, I don’t want to become the editor of all mistyped comments.

      You have my personal email address. Please feel free to let me know if there’s anything important you’d like me to change. Or, you can resubmit your comment and I can delete the previous one…if that’s what you want.

      Let me know.

      Edith




  22. Volvo,I’ll tell you a little story to pass the time.Once upon a time I decided I needed to purchase the “ultimate Condor package” from PA.Since it was such a huge splurge…I decided I deserved the fastest shipping possible!Fast foreward to the day I thought it would be delivered.Anticipation kept me up late the night before,but I got up at 7:45am,went out to get the paper and found sticker # 1.Now I lived on the second floor with an outside porch,straight staircase…and a noisy gate!Only a well trained Ninja could have got that sticker up there….I guess I was sleeping well.I’ll finish this by saying it wasn’t even the Condor being delivered! It was some knives I forgot I ordered!The Condor attempt was missed later that same day….I went out because I thought I had already missed it…..Charlie Brown with the football….that’s me.


    • Frank B,

      Good story, I think it happens to all of us sometimes.

      Since I am down to just one air rifle I’ve been like a kid waiting for Christmas on this one. Just figured out today that I sold off all my scope mounts that will work on it also. So good thing it didn’t show up, I would of probably duct taped the glass on it. : )


    • Frank B!

      I like that. You “needed” the ultimate Condor package. You must have needed it because you didn’t have any other airguns right? You do deserve expedited shipping. However, I have found that you almost never get what you pay for in such situations. I also imagine gorillas frantically cramming packages into a cargo plane with little care for said packages.

      You are not even close to being Charlie Brown. You are more like Schroeder. I have been ducked by UPS, USPS, FedEx and the cable guy. The girl with the blue dress always pulls the football away when I try to kick it. I think they can fling those little post-it notes from 20 yards away.


    • Ahh, the UPS guy… when I’m home I see him everyday. always delivering to various neighbors. He sees me and we exchange waves, sometimes short conversation. HOWEVER, when I’m waiting for a drop It’s like Christmas waiting for St Nick. I keep peaking out the door at every sound… “is it UPS?’… “what’s that ?… oh, hi neighbor…” next thing I go to the door and there’s the yellow sticky notice!!

      Next time I’m going to try some cookies and milk…

      KA


  23. Nice report guys, and thank you! I’ve owned mien for two years, and really enjoyed it the last year since I added maccari parts inside of it. I can shoot it more accurately, the firing behavior is improved an amazing amount, and its easier to cock. As good as this gun is in stock form, its almost a crime and a waste to shoot it with the stock spring and guides. I know its asking a lot, but if Mac is just sitting around….how about a tune kit?


  24. Who speaks nothing 25 cal. model (Weihrauh HW 97 K) Power potential more in 25J……….(6.35 mm)
    -Beeman HW 97 K Testing begause this is very strong airgun too……………..Where is this model tecnical specs ?


  25. Ive bought the wooden stock hw 97k .177 in 19 joules.
    It is extremely well build and the accuracy…….. it is really suprising:
    Scoped and with r10 match pellets, it shoots 5 milimeter c-t-c at 10 meters…. OUT OF THE BOX!
    For comparison: the feinwerkbau shoots a 5mm HOLE at the same distance.
    I have to work very hard to get this result: the grouping doesnt come as easy as with a fwb 300s.
    But still… it is quite a feat for a recoiling rifle. And Im sure it can do even better, once I have shot an extra 1000 shots with it. If its shoots an extra 1000 shots, its more smooth. And I get to know the rifle, so Ill be able to use its full potential.
    The place were I live is infested with the smallest type of crow.
    Up to 20 or 25 meters the fwb 300s will drop them crows perfectly with a well placed headshot.
    From 25 meters, the hw 97k will outshoot the feinwerkbau.
    With the hw97 you dont need “special” hunting pellets. Just get the most accurate pellet you can get.


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