Looking back at the FWB C-20 pistol – Part 3

by B.B. Pelletier

Today, guest blogger Pete Zimmerman gives us his third and final report on the C-20 pistol…performance!

If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email us.

Bloggers must be proficient in simple html, know how to take clear photos and size them for the internet (if their post requires them), and they must use proper English. We’ll edit each submission, but we won’t work on any submission that contains gross misspellings and/or grammatical errors.

Part 1
Part 2

by Pete Zimmerman

FWB C-20

A C-20 costs well over $1,000 when I got mine, and its descendant, the P44, is close to twice the price today. For that money, you ought to get a gun that out-shoots your own skills but also one that makes it easy to shoot the best you can. Using a top match pistol, the shooter can’t complain that misses are the gun’s fault. The first few targets shot with such a gun provide a crash course in no-excuse humility.

The pistol promises that the pellet will go through the X-ring in the middle of the 10-ring if you deliver the perfect shot. Time after time. Of course, some guns prefer one brand, product line, weight or pellet head diameter better than others. And, some pellets are inconsistent in weight and balance coming out of the tin, so getting to Nirvana, where misses are only the fault of the shooter, may take a little effort.

To point out one thing, the 9 and 10 rings on an NRA or ISSF air pistol target are really quite forgiving. Any decent match pistol using any match pellet should result in a group smaller than the 10 ring from a bench or in the hands of a good marksman. Scott Pilkington, the moderator of the Target Talk forum says that it isn’t worth your time to test. I found out that it is.

For this article, I set up a portable Workmate tool kit and vise combination on top of my shooting table. I opened the vise jaws a bit and anchored the gun by putting the gas tank in the vise grooves. I protected the tank with a bit of old foam rubber. The pistol can still rotates around the long axis of the CO2 tank but can’t move up and down. Small rotations of the gun change the cant angle and the impact point, so I put a small spirit level across the action to check position. I made no attempt to aim the rig to line up the sights on the bull. The point was to shoot groups that hit a piece of target paper…somewhere. I moved the target, not the rig, when I changed the type of pellet.

For test rounds, I had a grab bag of miscellaneous pellets sitting around from three manufacturers: RWS, H&N, and Crosman.

Start with the top performer, and another one not so good:

A 5-round group using RWS R-10 pellets, and another with H&N Match 4.49mm pellets sold under the Pilkington house brand.

The heavy RWS R-10 Rifle pellets (0.53 grams) delivered not only a one-hole 5-shot group, but a near zero-jitter group extraordinarily close to the target sample delivered with the pistol. The hole was small enough that a pellet won’t fall through the hole. It’s almost exactly as good as the proof target that came with the gun. The 4.49mm-diameter H&N Match pellets were significantly worse, resulting in a fairly open one-hole group that looks like a two-hole-with-flier because I bumped the Workmate after the first shot and took 5 more shots at the new aim point. Forget the “flier”; the group is still far too large for this pistol.

Meisterkugeln rifle pellets tested against 4.50mm H&N Match Pellets. Victory to the RWS brand.

The R-10’s less expensive stable mate, the Meisterkugeln Rifle pellet, also delivered a single-hole group, almost as perfect as the R-10s. On the other hand, the Haendler and Nattermann Match pistol pellet with a 4.50mm diameter head resulted in a ragged single-hole group, indicating that the C-20 might just not like H&N ammunition in its barrel. Not shown is a test of R-10 pistol pellets, which were almost as good as the heavier R-10s. In the C-20, heavier is better.

I gave the H&N 4.49s a second try, and then got the day’s surprise when I shot some cheapie Crossman Copperheads.

I decided to give the 4.49mm H&Ns another try. After all, they shoot extremely well from my IZH-46M. No joy. A very ragged single-hole group, with a diameter fully 3x that of a pellet diameter. Then, I noticed in the bottom of my pellet drawer a plastic box with a hundred or so Crosman Copperhead pellets, picked up a year or two ago over a weekend when I was otherwise out of ammunition.

The five shots landed in a single-hole group no larger than 1.5x the diameter of a pellet. I’m impressed and surprised.

I don’t contend that another batch of those cheapie pellets would shoot the same as the few that I tested for this post. But what the heck, it’s a better 5-shot group than either size of H&N pellets delivered.

This round of testing is enough to convince me that with current production pellets, the C-20 likes the RWS brand a lot more than the competition, and that it prefers a heavy pellet to a lighter one. I’ll probably save some money by using Meisterkugeln for practice and R-10s for when I finally enter some matches.

One thing’s clear: my C-20 will out shoot me and might still be suitable for international-level competition as long as the temperature remains constant on the range. All those world-beating CO2 pistols? They didn’t turn into trash when the first PCP guns hit the market. Quite probably only the top few hundred shooters in the world will ever need a better weapon, even in competition.

I have concluded that my worst problem is that the C-20s grip doesn’t fit my hand well and allows the gun to shift right as it’s fired. A lot of putty didn’t cure it. I’ll be in Germany soon and will have Thomas Rink of Rink Formgriffe make me an absolutely custom grip from a casting of my hand. If I have the bread, I might let that be the butter on a new Steyr LP-10 Compact, which weighs almost 250gm less than the C-20. A savings of almost half a pound! That will be an advantage for my medically damaged right arm and shoulder muscles.

86 thoughts on “Looking back at the FWB C-20 pistol – Part 3

  1. Pete -like i have already said i am not pistol expert but there is something about this pistol ,it is just looking grate 😉 ,have you tried to adjust sights just a little bit lower !?


  2. Pete,thank you for your writing.It is as fine as your pistol.I share your feeling about the competition guns of the “old” school of performance.I hope you continue to heal and progress.Hopefully there are more guest blogs coming.


  3. BB, Edith,

    Thanks for letting me write this and for publishing it. I like the way it came out and the way in which you split it in parts. Tom, much good luck and many good wishes for the next step in your medical treatment and recovery.

    Milan,

    The sights are actually adjusted so that a properly executed shot goes through the center of the 10-ring, the inner 10 ring. The test shots are high because I wanted the holes in light-colored paper so I could write on the paper and have you be able to read it. Black ink on a black background doesn’t work so well.

    Modern 10-meter match pistols are all very “mean” looking weapons. They are reduced to the bare essentials — no semiauto fire, no ability to fire BBs, no stock decoration — needed to put a 0.177 inch/4.50 mm diabolo pellet dead center on target, so long as the shooter delivers. And they are designed to make it easy for the shooter to do his or her part by providing anatomic grips with a flock of adjustments. Today’s pistols do rake, rotation, cant, position of trigger on the trigger support bar, and canting of the sights that is different from the cant of the action with respect to the grip. Then they minimize felt recoil with a tungsten piston (*not* a cheap piece of tin, that), get the sight line and barrel practically as low as the shooter’s thumb, vent a small amount of gas upwards to keep the muzzle from flipping and separate the gas streams out of the muzzle to ensure that turbulent gas doesn’t tip the pellet. And some of those guns are simply beautiful to look at. The entire FWB line, the Morinis, the Steyr LP-2 (but not the LP-10 IMHO), the Match Guns designs from Italy. The Izzy is hardly beautiful, but there isn’t a non-functional doo-dad on it — simple, rugged, probably reliable, inelegant, but with the toughness of a Russian tractor.

    The new guns are also about 300 grams lighter than the C-20 and similar guns of that era. That is a major factor.

    Frank,

    I have a very soft spot in my heart for the C-20. It was the gun with which I learned to shoot well. It’s a beautiful weapon. I don’t think it is capable of displacing today’s top pistols at the top of the Olympics or world championships because the modern recoil damping technology makes a measurable difference of a couple of points over a 60 shot match, but seriously, how many of us shoot at that level?

    And finally, the H&N pellets were a Champion’s Choice house brand, not a Pilkington one. Even so, I won’t buy any more for the CP-20.

    To everybody else who’s written in, thanks again.

    pete



    • No thank YOU Pete ! These guest blogs were wonderful.
      I love the fact that some “cheaper” pellets were tested, it’s nice (and sometimes surprising) to see ordinary pellets tested against other world class ones like this.

      I always wondered how I would do with a pistol of this quality but now thanks to it’s “crash course in no-excuse humility” and the fact that “the shooter can’t complain that misses are the gun’s fault” I just might wait a little longer 😉 good thing we can still blame the pellets!!! 😛

      J-F



  4. pete,

    Thanks for your very informative, well written and illustrated series. What amazing tool that pistol. Really enjoyed the blogs and gotta say, “please don’t take too long before your rifle review.” Sure am glad I’m not a pistol man–sure would be tempted.

    Mr B.



  5. Pete,

    Again, excellently written article. Looks like your best group is just a hair larger than the x-ring. Pretty cool, especially when you consider that it’s a pistol. I wonder if you’re tried the Gamo Match Pellets, and if you have with this pistol, how well they performed?

    Thanks again,
    Victor


  6. Pete,

    Great series, right up my ally (10M stuff). Interesting that you use H&N 4.49mm (.49 g ?) in your IZH-46M, mine cuts slightly cleaner holes in paper with lighter 4.5g RMS pellets whether its R-10s, hobies, or even basics with no sacrifice of accuracy. You also refer to your air pistol as a weapon at our club that would cost you a quarter (sorry, I don’t know how to do one of those smiling faces).

    Mr B,

    We may be able to turn you into a pistol guy. One, you can put more in a given space than rifles. Two, very easy to carry 4 or 5 at at a time. Three, a 5M target and silent trap and instantly you have a challenging range.


    • Caveman,

      Add to that:

      Four: You don’t have to wear a leather straightjacket, leather pants and special shoes to shoot. Blue jeans, sneakers and a sweatshirt is the uniform.

      Five: if you only carry one pistol your total load weighs about three pounds, instead of the two steamer trunks a rifleman has to lug around (one for the rifle and the other for the shooting stand, shooting pad, and spotting scope and stand).

      Six: You can fill a pistol’s reservoir in 50 pump strokes instead on 100 for the rifle.

      B.B.



      • BB,

        Amen to that. Always have been partial to pistols for all the reasons stated above. Plus add the challenge factor! I could go out and kill squirrels all day long left and right with a good scoped .22 lr but with a .22 lr target pistol with factory sights it is a way different story. You need to get much closer for humane kills and you also need to be a much better shot.

        Long live good pistols and shooters who can use them effectively!


  7. pete zimmerman,

    Your 3 part series on your FWB C-20 was fantastic. Thank you.

    Todays part on pellet testing was especially interesting to me. Considering a 10 meter distance the difference in pellet accuracy is significant. Seems a heavier pellet is what your pistol prefers. Noticed you shot a lot of pellets that were 4.50 head size. Is this the head size your gun prefers? Have you shot vogels with your C-20?

    kevin




      • Brian

        Crosman does make trigger shoes, but they might not sell them to you unless you know the part number. Crosman is kind of weird about this. You can order a steel breech from the website, but most every other part you have to know the number of the part you want.

        I purchased a trigger shoe for my Crosman 1377 (same trigger) from a guy on the Yellow Classifieds by the name of Jeffrey Schock. Look him up on the BOI and send him an email.


        • Yup, I called them about the custom shop parts and the guy on the phone was about 1 notch away from being rude about it. “Nope, can’t buy e’m separate from the custom pistol purchase” “If you want a custom shop gun, it’s 3 weeks or more.”

          Maybe he was in the sales-prevention dept.?

          Holy smokes, I just wanted to know if I could buy THEIR parts cause… at nearly $200 for a “custom” 2240, the custom stuff is all cosmetic so-to-speak, ie the trigger is no better than the $60 pistol, nor is the hammer spring, trigger spring and sear etc. Basically you get a longer barrel with pretty grips and the ability to mount 11mm scope mounts or sights.

          Crosman has not got this process right, at all!


    • Brian in Idaho,

      I have an extra black trigger shoe for the 2240 if you are interested. You can send me an email: danlbemail-1 at yahoo.com (replace ” at ” with “@”).

      AR


  8. Caveman,

    An air pistol is a weapon in the same sense that the epee used in fencing is a weapon. All shooting sports are either stylized hunting (trap, skeet, field target) or combat (500m big bore, etc) or dueling (10 m AP against a paper target). I leave out many other shooting sports so as not to run on too long. If I visit your club, I guess I’ll have to make a large contribution at the door as I enter. 😉

    I shoot 4.49mm pellets in my Izh because I’ve found the bore is slightly tight with 4.50mm ones. I usually start with heavy pellets, and then move down to lighter ones if necessary. The best change I know to get clean holes is to switch to Kruger or Edelmann targets from the very thin ones that National Target has switched to.

    Somebody asked about Gamo Match. I had a tin once, and they shot well enough, but I didn’t have any left for this round of tests.

    Kevin,

    For the last couple of years RWS has not labeled head size on their pellets, so I am simply “assuming” that they are targeting 4.50mm as the size. Could vary. I think in Germany they may still sell specific sizes. I think it’s to help dealers with inventory. I have not shot Vogel pellets. Right now I have enough variables not under complete control that I want to stick with RWS so that the pellet factor doesn’t change. When Beeman (the old Beeman, I emphasize) tested the pistol before shipping it to me, they said 4.51mm R-10s and Meisterkugeln were the best. In those days you could persuade them to test your gun before shipping! Neal Johnson tested the rifle before shipping it and also found it liked heavy pellets.

    BB,

    You should read the new ISSF rules on what pistol shooters must wear at sanctioned matches! The TargetTalk.org blog comments now run a full eleven pages [http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=24637&highlight=dress+code], but the main point is that shooters cannot wear blue jeans and sweatshirts but must wear attire that befits the dignity of the sport (or something like that). In any event, no more cut-offs.



      • Victor,

        I do not know. When cleaning out my pellet inventory I found an empty Gamo tin, and I remembered that I had “liked” them… but they were bought at least 5 or more years ago, and I was not serious about doing my own testing.


        • Pete,

          No problem. I understand. Until learning about this blog and reading the many excellent reports, I never gave testing so much thought myself. I simply used what I was told was “the best” and went with that. However, out of curiosity, I was able to show that H&N performed extremely well with my FWB 300 back in the 70’s. At 50 feet, I could should pin-wheels that that combo, so I never questioned them again.

          Thanks again,
          Victor


  9. pete zimmerman,

    Thanks. I know vogel, some H & N pellets and a few others still offer multiple head sizes AND PRINT the head size on the tin.

    For match pellets it seems like the consumer/competitor would demand knowing what the head sizes are but this information is seemingly kept a secret or at least not readily available. In many of my lower powered guns head size is as important as weight.

    kevin


  10. Pete,
    Excellent articles!!! And I mean excellent!. I look forward to more of your “stuff”.

    I wonder, with your experience, have you considered the electronic triggers? I noticed the LP-10 you mentioned ($2045) comes with one for an extra $400 ($2475) at Pilkguns.

    P.S. Who are these people who always think clothes are so important? I guess we need an “Open Attire” class at the range separated by a high wall so as not to offend sensitive eyeballs.


    • Yes, I have certainly considered electronic triggers. Those who love them love them a lot. Others try them and return them. It is an extra $400 bucks for an electronic trigger, as you noted, and as a semi-retired experimental physicist I am not sure that I really believe that such an electromechanical rig is as reliable as is a mechanical trigger. But I just don’t know how they feel; I’ve never shot one.


      • Both the new men’s and new women’s world champions use Steyr LP-10 pistols. The women’s champion, Zorana Arunovic, used an LP-10; the new men’s champion, Tomoyuki Matsuda, used an LP-10 E with the electronic trigger. You pays yer money and you takes yer chances. FWB did not have a single pistol medalist, men’s or women’s.


        • Pete,

          Do you know, or have any idea as to, why Steyr’s are being used over FWB? The difference in price isn’t all that great. A Steyr LP-10P is only a couple hundred dollars more than an FWB P44, for example. With an electronic trigger, the Steyr goes up another hundred.

          Victor


          • I’m told that the FWB P34 was a bit of a dog, why I don’t know. Steyr forged ahead, and Morini jumped on the strength of its electronic trigger. Steyrs go up about $300, not $100, with the electronic trigger (maybe not at Pilkington, who is anyway a bit high).

            I suspect that Steyr has done a lot of sponsorship and endorsement deals with the top pistol shooters to make sure the brand “holds” the world and Olympic championships. Nothing wrong with that, of course. I do wonder why their excellent match rifles languish, however. The basic mechanisms are obviously very similar, and surely similar in quality!



            • OK, when you look at the World Cup, for example, you see that the top shooters use the expected brands in decent representation from each; Steyr, FWB, Anschutz, and Walther. However, it also happens to be the case that most, and probably of all, are being sponsored by the manufacturer to some extent, even if it means getting a free or greatly discounted price. I wonder how much this factors in with regards to who is using what air-pistol?

              Victor



          • So i had to say that about Zorana as a sign of local patriotism,and pcp4me…. i won t send any more youtube videos it is cool 🙂 and i ll try to be brief and i ll try not to post so much peace people


            • rikib-thank you !I can talk about my Slavia AIRGUNS all the time (you guys would die from bordom) ,but what good would that be,you guys dont even import them in USA(i cant talk about say Crosman we dont import them) and i ll be honest i am on this blog partially to help- but most important stuff for me here is to learn written english better and i dont see any rule against that AND I MET HERE SOME REALLY GOOD PEOPLE i ll say it again .


    • Electronic triggers,

      I have tested several electronic triggers. While they are good, none of them is better than the best mechanical trigger. So what is the benefit? Consistency? We already get that in the mechanical trigger.

      B.B.


      • Electronic triggers,

        Last year at the state champ match in Calif., one shooter shows up with a Daystate with an electronic trigger, only to find his battery is dead. OOOPPPs… a mad dash to a radio shack was no help.. Had to borrow a gun for the match.

        food for thought..

        Wacky Wayne,
        Match Director,
        Ashland Air Rifle Range


        • But that’s sort of like people who object that their digital camera is dead w/o a battery. If you can afford the camera, you should be able to afford a spare battery. I’m much more worried about switch bounce problems, as have been reported about at least two major brands, or solenoid failure.



  11. Pete,
    I am enjoying your articles. I am friends with Steve Corcoran and I believe that you were the one who got him to build his first airgun piece, pistol grips for one of you pistols. I wish you would come to some of the shoots we have in North Texas. It would be great to meet you.

    Tom and Edith,
    I am praying for you guys today. I know Tom is having another procedure today.


    • I’m at the hospital. Tom’s procedure went well…and very quick! He’s already done and the doctor has been out to see me. The pseudocyst is even smaller than they thought and smaller than what they could see on the CT scan he got last week. The doctor would have removed the external drain and inserted an internal one directly from the cyst to the stomach but he said that the fluid in the cyst is so thick that the stent connection would have become clogged very quickly. That means Tom’s cyst is near the end of its life. He DID put in a longer stent that traverses the length of his entire pancreatic duct to help channel the drainage toward his intestines. So, that’s where we are now. They’ve already called in pain and nausea medication into a pharmacy near our home, which means Tom will be coming home with me today. The doctor said that we can get Tom’s gallbladder removed very soon…even while the long stent is in place. Whoopee! The cause of all this will finally be out of the way forever!

      Edith


    • David,

      It must be a different PZ. I’ve seen pix of Steve Corcoran’s work, but never had any contact with him. I wish I lived somewhere where there was more AP and AR activity, especially in the “precision” disciplines. And I wish I had the wherewithal to fly down to Texas.

      Edith,

      Wonderful news!

      p


  12. Edith and Tom,

    The light at the end of this so very long tunnel is getting much brighter for you both and as Tom said awhile back, “it’s not attached to a locomotive.”

    Thanks so much for the update.

    Mr B.


  13. The Marlin Cowboy delivery date has yet again (for the 4th time) been pushed back, and the rest of my order (placed in January!) goes along for the ride. Hallelujah for Pyramyd’s customer service. I’m looking forward to the day they finally decide to honor my order and ship, only to discover that my credit card has long since expired, the coupon code I used has long since expired, and maybe some of the other items on my order have meanwhile been discontinued. Oh boy am I waiting for the phone call that will come about all this from Pyramyd one fine day. They will get to hear Exactly what I think of their wonderful order handling processes. Not that it matters, since all my suggestions have fallen on deaf ears anyway. 🙁
    -AlanL


    • Alan,

      Let’s get real. The Marlin Cowboy is being made for Crosman in China. Pyramyd Air has absolutely no idea of when it is coming in beyond what Crosman tells them. And Crosman is at the mercy of their Chinese vendor.

      So they (Pyramyd Air) do the best they can. I was told at the SHOT Show that the Cowboy would be out my early summer, so does that make me a liar because I repeated it to you readers? No.

      The problem is you are looking at wholesale information and thinking that is retail information. Because of the internet you are looking at what the retailer sees and thinking that they (the retailer) have some control over it.

      If they DON’T put the gun on their website, other retailers do and the search engines reward them with higher standings.

      You have to understand how the wholesale world works today. They often push their products long before offering them, just to test the market. I don’t think that is what has happened here, but probably the projected sales of the Marlin Cowboy are low enough to put it on the back burner at the manufacture’s level.

      B.B.


      • B.B & AlanL,

        Well said Tom.

        Alan, it’s not just in the airgun industry that they “Taste” the market before a launch. But in that industry, just think about how competitive it’s become these days. China, Mexico, Spain, CZ, Korea, (and the US????) trying to make stuff, and sell stuff, and stay in business all the while. Making a profit is nice too.

        It’s such a fine line between designing a new thing and making enough of them to break even, let alone make a profit. That’s why a truly “new thing” rarely comes out, usually it’s a remake with the same parts. This is sort of a “new thing” isn’t it?

        So, my friend, learn the game and don’t get attached to the results. It’s not worth the “heartburn”. If it says 3 weeks, then plan on 6 months and be surprised if its sooner:-)

        I always create a new order with PA, if what I want is on back order, and forget about when it might come in. Keep the things “in stock” on a separate order. Costs more in shipping, but the other way is not worth the heartache.

        Wacky Wayne,
        Match Director,
        Ashland Air Rifle Range

        and manufacture of
        Raised Garden Beds…
        http://www.naturalyards.com

        but of course, we only offer new products when we have them ready to ship… were too small time to play any other way:-)


      • B.B.,

        I know that, and I fully understand your reaction. However, you have missed my point entirely, and this is due to the fact that you missed a long and involved exchange of comments on this topic that dates back to the time you were in the hospital. The Marlin’s delivery is not the point. The point in short is that I am paying for shipping, and that by splitting my order Pyramyd forces me to pay double shipping, which I disagree with. It is entirely a matter of principle. The previous discussion resulted in some carefully thought out analyses of the customer service ramifications of Pyramyd’s (in my opinion) misguided policies that Edith thought worthy of “passing on to the highest levels of Pyramyd” and which obviously came to nought. If you are interested I will reconstruct the entire exchange for you, with all its nuances and send it to you privately as a PDF. And Tom, I would never accuse you of being a liar! That’s potentiually way too dangerous to my health- and on that topic, I will add only that I await the day that I can congratulate you on your full recovery, gall bladder free. Till then, all the best.

        -AlanL


        • B.B.,

          I’ll add one point (already discussed previously as mentioned) for your the benefit and Wacky Wayne and JF: You may say that I know that by lumping in stock items with out of stock items I am agreeing to the shipping delay. That is true, however, once the first “promised” delivery date passes, the responsibility for fulfilling (delivering) the in-stock items of the order in a timely manner passes to the vendor. Pyramyd unfairly keeps that burden upon the customer. THAT is the point of principle that I am trying to make. That is why I have not altered my order. Another potential consequence of this is that when my first out of stock item finally comes into stock another item on my order that was in stock at time of order is now out of stock, further delaying delivery of my order. Then this policy of non-shipment leads to a perpetually rolling delay that results in an order never being delivered to the customer. I am in the process of proving the foolishness of this policy. Once the first promised delivery date passes, it is unethical for me to be forced to break my order up and pay extra shipping when Pyramyd accepted my order as it was. I trust this point of principle is now clear to you all.

          -AlanL


          • I do understand your point BUT do you really think that Pyramyd Air is doing this on purpose ? That would be a really poor business decision, refusing to sell stuff to a customer. The only option I can think of would be for them to refuse to sell out of stock items. I’m not saying your wrong here but other than selling stuff they don’t have in stock and you knew they didn’t have it in stock I don’t think they did anything wrong.
            On another note I had put my email address in and they were supposed to tell me when the crosman discovery would come out (in 2008) and I’m still waiting for it…
            I also did the same thing with Crosman with the nitro piston in 495fps version, I haven’t received the email yet it is available to buy on crosman.com and I bought one a few weeks ago at a local store… good thing I didn’t wait for that email. Oh and I did check my spam folder several times and it wasn’t in there.

            J-F

            ps : the spell checker is working great but could words like the company names (pyramyd air, crosman, beeman etc) be put in so they don’t come out as errors ? I tried adding them put I always get the “fail to add 2 words” message when I’m done.


          • AlanL,
            I hate to say it but, I agree with the others NEVER combine an order of in stock items and out of stock/pre-order items if you plan to see your in stock items in the near future. The additional shipping charge is not worth the frustration. It is NOT just PA, this is the way most companies that I have dealt with do business. I learned to separate my orders to expedite delivery. Normally you are given an estimated delivery date, not a promised delivery date, but I may be incorrect in your case

            rikib


    • Are you serious ! I’m going to the US soon and I wanted to order one. What am I going to order now?
      Maybe a discovery or maybe I’ll go the Rikib route and order a 2240?? Would the 2240 barrel fit on 2289 ? I could swap a few parts, and have a 2289 pistol and a 2240 carbine !

      AlanL why don’t you just cancel the Marlin part and get the rest of your order ? You can always get the Marlin later (if it ever comes in… and Crosman was saying that it would be out in the spring LOL).

      I can just imagine the HUGE pile of actions all ready to be assembled at crosman only missing the stocks that have been missing for months and have yet to be received.

      The Marauder Pistol must have been pushed back too… maybe I’ll be able to get one before I retire… in 32 years 😛

      J-F



      • J-F,

        The method of construction you describe — shipping the parts to the U.S. and assembling the guns here — is one way Chinese guns are made. Daisy follows that model with their guns, for the most part.

        But guns like the Marlin Cowboy are assembled and packaged in China. So nothing is sitting around awaiting parts.

        B.B.


  14. Pete,

    Thanks for a great series on your C-20 10 meter pistol. I’ve been using my Air Arms Alfa 10 meter for pistol FT, but now practicing offhand pistol FT too, since it looks like the AAFTA Field Target nationals will have it standing offhand this year. Last year we did it sitting or whatever. No AAFTA rules per se, as yet, so, the hosting club is setting the rules until the AAFTA BOG makes some decisions.

    I really enjoyed the history and look into the 10 meter pistol game. But, it all seems quite serious, do you have BBQs and bull sessions into the night around the campfire?

    Wacky Wayne,
    Match Director,
    Ashland Air Rifle Range


    • Wayne,

      The Alfa 10 and its cousins from the Czech Republic are all really nice mid-grade match pistols. I bought a Tau-7 Junior about a year ago and found that its trigger was quite good, its accuracy excellent, and its ergonomic fit to my hand utterly impossible! I couldn’t hold it steady, and it nearly jumped away from me.

      But that’s me, and that specific gun, which came w/o match grips. I suspect I would have had a better opinion with match grips.

      You’re right: the 10 meter gang seems far more serious and takes itself somewhat too seriously. But it’s where the competition comes down to winning an Olympic gold medal by 0.1 point out of 709 possible, and it’s where, in AR, there is no new world’s record to set. The match has 600 pts, and many people have shot 600s. Nobody has yet gone to the finals after a 600 and then shot 109 (10.9 * 10 shots), so there is something left.

      I haven’t been to a 10 m match — I tell you I am really just beginning in this game — but I’m sure from descriptions that there isn’t much cameraderie after the match is over. But at club matches in Germany, according to Scott Pilkington, after the guns are put away there is much beer and wine at the local. I hope somebody will invite me to one such during my tour of S. Germany in October.

      Will the AAFTA off-hand rules allow scopes, or just iron sights? One hand on the gun or two? Any kind of support such as a long stick with a Y at the top?

      Have you seen the “new” German variant on 10m rifle: supported shooting? It’s only for us old codgers, and we get to rest the fore-end on a support. The problem is that for those guys a 10.2 is a lousy shot. Oh yes, they take advantage of the loophole that allows a magnifier in the foresight tunnel.


  15. Great news about Tom’s successful procedure.

    On the subject of electronic triggers, couldn’t the lock time be made faster than a mechanical trigger?

    Pete Zimmerman, thanks for the blog. Those are very impressive groups. I take it the distance was 10m. The shooting vise raises an old question for me on this subject. It’s pretty clear that a vise will shoot better than the vast majority of human shooters. But I was astounded by a blog comment–I think it was from B.B.–that the vise is no better and may even be worse than the best human shooters. How can this be if the ideal is to keep the gun as motionless as possible? Is the problem with a rest just a technical one of truly removing every motion from it? If that’s the case, then in principle, if you figured out a way to pour concrete around your gun without fouling its action and mounting the whole thing on a 100 mile deep foundation of lead, then you should have a perfectly steady rest. Or is it a matter of principle where somehow the skillful shooter’s body is inherently better? I can’t think of why this would be unless it is the humble third law of motion that every action causes an equal and opposite reaction. Maybe when your rest is rigid beyond a certain point, the discharge of a gun will somehow rebound from the rigid framework back into the gun mechanism. If this effect exists, it would decrease with low recoiling guns and be almost non-existent for pcps. So maybe a rested pcp is the ultimate in accuracy.

    Also, on the subject of accuracy, I suspect there quite a few guns which are far more accurate than the shooter because the materials they are made of–plastic, wood, and metal–are intrinsically more rigid than the human body. What seems to set apart the really elite guns like today’s pistol is how much they allow repeated accuracy through their interface with the shooter. I can get a sense of that from my Anschutz which is truly a bullseye machine.

    In other news, I see in today’s news that China’s economy is predicted to surpass America’s to become number one somewhere between 2020 and 2030. If their economy is that strong can their quality control be far behind? More disturbingly, my reading of history indicates that EVERYTHING about a nation’s standing in the world stems from its economic strength, so if this comes to pass, we might have much more to worry about than airgun quality. On the other hand, there is no need to overreact yet. Even in my lifetime, there has been a long list of new top powers whether it was the Soviet Union in the Cold War, the Japanese in the 80s, or even the European Common Market. None of that worked out for a variety of reasons. In fact, given the miserable track record of futurism, it’s almost a comfort to hear this since it is so likely to be wrong. However, the prediction is sobering. It is based on certain material indicators and is not that far off.

    Matt61


    • Matt61,

      In principle the lock time of an electronic trigger can be slightly shorter than for a mechanical one. But you still have to follow through and I bet that time is still longer. BB doesn’t like a vise, and I understand that for a springer because the entire system, spring, piston, pellet and shooter, moves differently than spring, piston, pellet, and vise. The spring slaps around a great deal. But CA and CO2 guns are different. There are no moving parts other than the hammer on the valve and the gas itself, so there are many fewer oddball and strong vibrations. Anyway, I don’t shoot well enough to test a tack driver’s variations with pellet characteristics! I just did a rifle target where 5 shots were inside the 8 ring, but the group was still much larger than the worst group from the pistol in a vise.

      I think what you buy when you buy an elite gun is the ability to twist it around and adjust it until every measurement exactly fits your body — the difference between a hand-tailored suit made-to-measure and one bought off the rack and then fitted by an alteration tailor. I think all premium guns are very good as far as accuracy goes, and even consistency if tied down. The question is how easy they make it for a shooter to get that much accuracy all the time.

      Top smallbore shooters worry seriously about the tiny vibrations of the muzzle as the bullet exits! They test ammo by the hundreds of rounds before buying a huge supply of a single favored lot.

      The Chinese economy is now bigger than the Japanese because there are so many more Chinese than Japanese. The per capita income is much smaller.



  16. We’ve always had off-topic blog comments. Sometimes, we go WAY overboard and talk about other things for really extended periods of time. Of course, another way to share is via email. Just a thought, not a command 🙂

    Edith


    • Edith,
      I just felt there was basically no harm, no foul when posting during slow times. Usually from about 12:30 a.m. till close to 5 a.m. (blog time) not much is being posted. I did not feel it was right that one individual tell another what they could or could not post here. That is up to you to govern. E-mailing is possible, but not as secure I don’t believe. Also not as instantaneous, and there may possibly be others that are interested.

      rikib


  17. Edith,
    Can I be removed from the “receive all comments”. For some reason I don’t receive all comments in my email, but I do receive all the “junk” mail from “wordpress”. I normally just read off the RSS Feed anyway and it is faster. So if you could please remove me from the “all comments” list.

    Thanks,
    rikib



  18. Oh boy… “off topic wars”!

    This blog (and Edith & Tom) are waaaay generous to truly off topic posts.

    I think that one of the points made was; that those who receive all posts find it frustrating (given that it is an airgun blog) to see repeated emails or notifications that are nowhere near on topic, let alone off topic. At times, even the posts to 5 and 6 year old product reviews “saw your 1077 review, where can I get 6mm paintballs to fit it?” questions can be annoying. Tom and Vince and Edith are way more patient with that crowd than I could ever be.

    I have seen/visited other blogs that shut down off topic posts asap, or send the post to a categorized forum page, not so here. (e.g. posting cookie recipe chatter on a digital camera blog… bad form)

    I myself posted “off topic” today because I was (personally) looking for a trigger shoe for my 2240. Of no great interest to anyone but me, thus the Off Topic heading of my post. Necessary? Maybe not. Courteous? Probably. Today’s blog was about Pete’s FWB testing and related topics, not my need for a gun part.

    Tom and Edith are the hosts and are generous at that, the comment about Tom’s health as an example of not being cogent to this blog or being off topic was out of line. And it’s just airguns for gods-sake… “Censured”? That’s a little lofty application of PCP’s clear and pointed comment isn’t it?


    • Brian in Idaho,
      I requested to stop receiving all comments because they are not filtered. Many are disguised as coming from this blog but are just junk mail links to porn sites. I can go to this blog and connect to the RSS Feed and get all filtered comments whether on or off topic quicker.

      rikib


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