TalonP PCP Air Pistol from AirForce: Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1


TalonP air pistol from AirForce is a powerful, new .25-caliber pneumatic hunter.

It was bound to happen sometime, and today was the day. My Oehler 35 chronograph failed to function at the range, so today has to be an accuracy day instead of a velocity day. The problem was overhanging trees that blocked the sky from the skyscreens. I could have moved into the sun, but I was short on air; and before I ran this test, I had no idea how much air the pistol would use. So, conservation was the main goal. I went straight to shooting groups.

Perhaps, now is the time to mention that I mounted the superb Hawke 4.5-14×42 Sidewinder scope on the pistol in Leapers 30mm high rings. Because I used a two-piece mount, the positioning options are very generous, which may be important as I get used to holding the pistol.

After a sight-in of two rounds at ten feet, I was on paper at 25 yards and ready to begin. Then, the enormity of this report hit me. The TalonP air pistol has adjustable power and, despite my saying in Part 1 that everyone will probably leave it at full power all the time, I discovered otherwise when the situation became real. With adjustable power and a fairly broad choice of pellets, I could spend a year with the gun and not learn all its secrets.

When you find yourself in a similar situation, you can turn it around by starting with what you know. I knew that AirForce said this gun gets 30 good shots on low power, so I adjusted it as low as it would go and began shooting.

They aren’t boasting, folks. This pistol really does get at least 30 good shots on low power. And they are not low-powered shots, either! We’ll have to wait until I get the chronograph numbers to back it up, but I could tell just by the time of flight and the impact sound made by the pellet that these quarter-inch lead pellets were hitting with authority.


Even at the lowest power setting, the TalonP air pistol slammed the target hard. These five JSB Exact King pellet went into 0.751 inches at 25 yards.

The first pellet I tried was the 25.4-grain JSB Exact King dome. These fit the bore very well. They sailed right into the target and left only enough of the center of the bull that I didn’t lose my aim point.

The early success got me started; and from that point on, I had a ball. I shot the pistol 30 shots per 3,000 psi fill, but I shot five-shot groups instead of ten because I was still thinking about air conservation and there were lots of pellets and power settings to test.


Lots of pellets and lots of options make for an involved test.


Power setting No. 4 was very good for JSB Exact King pellets.

After the first run, I started fiddling with the power setting. The JSBs did well until I boosted the power to No. 6 on the dial. Then the pellets started to open up.


When the power wheel reached No. 6, the group started to open for the JSBs.


Shot from a rest, the pistol was very stable.

By this time, I’d fired many groups and was ready for the big enchilada — the 43.2-grain Eun Jin pointed pellet that produces 50 foot-pounds in this gun. I filled the tank and ran the power wheel all the way up.

Loading these big pellets was a chore! They take a real push to seat them in the breech, and I got sore fingers after loading just a few.

Up to this point, I thought the discharge sound of the gun was well below what I was prepared for. But that left me wide open for the first powerful shot that barked as much as a .25-caliber pocket pistol. A second shot sent me hunting for ear protection. I finished four shots but noted that this power setting isn’t the best for this pellet. The group size was two inches, which made me conclude that I wasn’t using the best setting. I dropped the power and began testing all the other pellets.

Eun Jins at power setting No. 6 did even worse than they had with the power set all the way up, so I shelved them for another day. Next, I backed off the power setting to No. 3 and tried RWS Superdomes. They didn’t even want to stay on the paper at 25 yards, but I’d noticed that they were very loose in the breech — the only pellets that were loose in this gun.

The reason I backed off the power is that these pellets are all lighter than the Eun Jins, and I didn’t want to distort them with too much of an air blast. If there was any tendency toward accuracy, I could tweak the power setting at any time.

Gamo Pro Magnum pellets teased me at the No. 3 power setting, but there was still one flyer that opened the group too much. They deserved more attention, but after two similar “teaser” groups, I moved on.

The next pellet I tried was the .25-caliber Benjamin dome. It has no special name; but in this pistol, it certainly deserves one! These pellets were phenomenal, grouping around a half-inch time after time.


At power setting No. 3, these Benjamin pellets made this great 0.556-inch group. This is one of three similar groups with this pellet!

The last pellet I tried is the one AirForce believes was used to kill a prairie dog at 100 yards with a TalonP pistol a couple weeks ago. Watch for a YouTube video of that hunt soon. The 31-grain Beeman Kodiak Match dome is just about the ideal weight for an airgun of this power; it can handle the power, yet has the weight to deliver the punch downrange.


Best group of a day that was filled with good groups was this set of five Beeman Kodiaks that went into 0.554 inches.

So far, what do you think?
Well, I was wrong about the TalonP. It isn’t for wide-open shooting at all. It is an accurate air pistol with plenty of finesse for every accurate pellet that can be found. The fact that it also has stunning power should be secondary to its utility as a hunting airgun. That’s just what I think to this point!

Oh, and about the air use — you can forget all the worrying. I consistently got 20 shots at power (not the highest power, but power setting No. 6) and 25 shots at the most accurate setting (power setting No. 3), so far. There’s so much to learn about this airgun, and I’ve only started with today’s report. Now that I know which pellets are accurate at which settings, I can test those for velocity, so this report can be bounded in some sensible way.

There’s a lot more to come!

61 thoughts on “TalonP PCP Air Pistol from AirForce: Part 2

  1. BB,

    I have to say the TalonP is an odd duck appearance wise. Especially with a scope mounted on the handle/site mount. I’m not a believer in too tall of a mount for a scope and am of the belief that there has to be some measure of parallax with the scope mounted as high as the Talon/Condor series. How do you site something in with the scope mounted so far above the barrel? The POI has to be drastically different at close/far ranges, no?

    Admittedly however, I have never even shouldered one of these, so I’m speculating…

    One more thought… What is it that keeps Air Force from angle mounting the bottle / buttstock to get a decent (spelled ‘lower’) line of site with the Condor? Even the AR15 has evolved to an improved version with the flat top options. What have I missed?

    ka



  2. I think anyone who’s eer loaded a Eujin pellet into an AF barrel remembers the experience.I also think
    the barrel might be too short to be optimum for 50fp with a pellet in the 43gr range.It looked like
    there was no endcap on it?


  3. BB,I was shooting the Daisy pre-WW2 140 yesterday with bbs that were nothing “special”.I was actually hitting the 1″ spinner frequently at 20yds!! The open sights were awesome to use.She’s shooting right at 310fps.What a great little BB gun.


    • Frank,

      How jealous I am! When I was a kid my friend got one — a used one — for his birthday. That was at the time when I was not allowed to own a BB gun.

      I still remember that neat-looking fake bolt, if I have my models right.

      B.B.


      • Yup,it’s the earliest airgun I’ve come across with an automatic safety.Maybe it was because it was understood that Dad was at war so safety should be integral.Mine even has the always missing strap
        in amazing condition.That bolt rotated down about a half inch with the trigger hand thumb(right handers).
        I never heard about you not being allowed a BB gun! It is something I would have remembered,as it’s the real reason I own so many now.I used to sneak down to Matzen’s pond to shoot my friend Todd’s
        760 at frogs.They would swim to the bottom and spin up a cloud of mud.I could calculate the optical offset and get them in 2′ of water consistently by aiming below the mud “cloud”.1976 was a good year
        to be a kid.


        • No way! You can’t get a frog under 2 feet of water, 2 inches sure but 2 feet? You’d need a .308 to get ‘em down that far.

          I once pumped my 760 up like …. 20 times. And shot an innertube that was half-submerged in our local muddy pond. I think I actually got it since it did in fact slowly sink.

          The Crosman 760: Spawning a generation of little gun nuts with unusually well-developed ‘pecs’ for 11-year-olds.


          • Flobert,I was standing on the bank of the drainage ditch,about 4 feet wide.The water was gin clear and every bit of 18″-2′ deep.I could see when I missed because the mud bottom would show a little mud puff.The swimming frogs stood little chance.Don’t make me take you there and show you! LOL
            P.s.I want to say we were using BBs,I just don’t recall pellets back then.Mythbusters did an episode about what weapons penetrate the water column furthest.High powered rifle rounds went down less than a foot if I recall correct.Black powder and roundballs were devestating though.


            • Wow. I was thinking, Wait a minute, I wasn’t there. That’s kinda cool to know.

              Some places have a gar (fish) problem, and it’s OK to hunt gar with just about anything, including pellet guns. I read about this in a book, with a nice black and white photo of a gar just under the water and the splash of a pellet from a high powered gun, the shot “fatal to the gar”.

              I’ll go shooting frogs with you anytime, I just recently got to try frog legs and they’re pretty decent.



          • Thank you so much for that link! It needs to be a blog one weekend.I could feel the sharp wet grass of summer between my toes as I read! If you still have my Email Tom,please send me a quick note.
            I can’t find a valid adress for you.I have an off blog question for you.


          • Wow what a story! Looks like the cartoonist even tried to get likenesses of you, I guess being a big tall guy you’d have been a big tall kid back then.

            I think there were a few of those fanner 50′s around when I was a kid. My fave though was a Luger I got from my big brother, you could put a roll of caps in then pulling the loose end of the rull up past the hammer and firing double-action, fill the gun with smoke. Then I’d stick the barrel in my mouth, inhale said smoke, and make it come out of my nostrils. It’s a wonder I never took up the hobby of smoking “coffin nails”.

            The Crosman “357″ revolver with the shootemupski action is I guess still being sold, it’s double action and I should get one sometime.


  4. B.B.

    Looks like AF put this one together with the parts deliberately intended to work together, instead of letting you swap around tanks, barrels, and calibers to find something that works in the right combination. A very specific design rather than a general one.

    I have no intention of buying one since I have no particular interest in handguns or anything resembling a handgun/carbine configuration.

    twotalon


  5. BB.

    What can I say? This appears to be a real cannon. But probably not for me. I am looking for something akin to the P Rod with a little more power. I would like to kick a 30+ grain .22 pellet out in the neighborhood of 1000 fps in a carbine version of a “pistol”. Light weight, accurate, powerful and reliable is what I want. Is there anything like that?


    • A Dennis Quackenbush .22 pistol w/ a Crosman carbine stock is EXACTLY what you’re describing.Hard to find and harder to pay for though.


    • pcp4me,

      You’re never going to get 1000 f.p.s. from a 12-inch barrel shooting a 30-grain pellet. It just doesn’t compute. A 24-inch barrel, yes, but never from a 12-inch barrel.

      B.B.


    • A 30 grain or more .22 pellet? .22 long rifle cartridges have 30-40 grain bullets in them, you could put a window out with that thing.


    • An Evanix TDR comes close to what you’re after according to PA’s listing. A 28 gr EunJin @ 700 fps is about 30 ft/lbs. I have no experience with them, but it looks like a pretty loud gun though….

      /Dave


  6. Morning B.B.,

    Looks like this is going to be an interesting gun. The .22 caliber Eun Jin’s are a pain to load in my Talon SS also, but they sure hit with a resounding thump when I switch to HPA.

    PA says that you can’t use a longer barrel because the valve is tuned for the 12″ one and not because the bushing won’t line up with the holes in the pistol’s frame. However, they show the Talon SS with the optional 12″ barrel getting 750 fps instead of the 760 fps that their pistol gets which leads me to my question. How would that tank and valve work shooting with a 24″ barrel? Any chance of giving it a try.

    Bruce


  7. B.B., so are the power settings on a smoothly revolving wheel or slider or do they have positive clicks at the various increments? It seems like a lot of innovation in shooting comes from combining different categories of designs. Combine a pistol and a carbine and you get a submachine gun. Combine a submachine gun and a rifle and get an assault rifle. Combine a rifle and a medium machine gun and you get a BAR or an MG42. So, this one represents a combination of rifle and pistol to get a sort of pistol/carbine. One can’t help but see the comparison with the Marauder pistol. By the way is there any more news about how the Edge and Challenger target rifles are faring in competition? I believe that the initial reaction upon rollout favored the Challenger but not by much.

    Mike, I use A-Zoom snap caps which are supposed to be the very best, but I’ve resigned myself to feeding problems. I think the packaging even says somewhere that they are designed to cushion firing pins not really for feeding practice. Actually, the real star in terms of reliability is the Mosin-Nagant 9130. This one never hiccups even the slightest bit on feeding. I attribute this to the generous tolerances and the tapered case which just funnels the cartridge where it is supposed to go. As for the rim jams, no way would you be able to push one rim over another with my set-up. I have tried, and it’s like pushing against a wall. I’ve figured out how to unlock the rims with a subtle movement of the thumb but if not done correctly, this will cause more rim jams further down in the magazine. It would really be unworkable in combat, but I’m anxious to see how the real cartridges perform.

    Loren, yes, the Parkzone Corsair. Flies like a dream. I believe it might share the same engine with the T-28, so your flying experience must be fairly similar. I’ve actually just made a transition where I am no longer in Kamikaze mode, expecting to crash each time. I’m actually flying the thing with loops, rolls, and some assurance. Landings are still a little rough though. Thinking more about the Reno accident, I see that the pilot purposely made huge modifications to his P-51 that included removing 10 feet from the winspan and reducing the surface area of the ailerons. Both of those modifications will drastically reduce stability in an airplane that was not the most stable to begin with. I think this was irresponsible both for himself and the audience which got killed and mutilated. I’m surprised he lived as long as he did.

    KA, actually I understand that Kournikova’s mom gave her a very strict training regimen that included whole workouts playing with her offhand and playing through injury. You’re probably seeing the mom in her behavior. But anyway, Kournikova’s shortcomings in tennis didn’t seem to result from a lack of hard work. I don’t know what her problem was; apparently she was much better in doubles.

    I think the old guy missed his chance by not saying something like, “Hey baby, I love your temper.” I bet she would have really flipped out. :-) Seriously, though, ugly is right. Apparently, she has gone through a lot of guys, and I can understand if she came on like she did with those exercisers. As Serena Williams said, in another context, “You’re a hater. You are unattractive inside.” :-) I imagine that it must be quite the chilling feeling to have your object of desire turn into a demon right in front of you. Jack Dempsey, the heavyweight champion, talked about this in his memoir when his second wife (a movie starlet) woke him up one morning and said, “I want a divorce. Get out of my life and stay out.” There’s also a passage like this about the changing value of appearance in a book called Man in Full by Tom Wolfe. An American guy is facing a paternity suit from a Finnish woman whom he met briefly under unwise circumstances, and he thinks about the difference between then and now. Before, all he could think about was “hot little Finnish bodies popping out of the snow.” And when he looked into her blue eyes, he thought he was “looking into the depths of Nordic love.” But now, he just wonders if she has a “thyroid condition.”

    Matt61


    • Jumping in…

      I suspect the power adjust mechanism is the same as that on the Talon/Condor rifles: a micrometer “thimble” with main value read-out on the linear scale and sub-value on the thumbwheel; hence, continuous adjust — no detents.

      (Are they STILL using 0.5-16 instead of the logical 0-15.5 on the thumbwheel? Come-on — lining the linear up under “5″, say, means one is really at 4-16 instead of 5-0).


    • Matt I think a lot of those air race planes are ticking time bombs. That’s part of the thrill, I think. I think they should have had the stands further away. I think the people who got hurt were in the “elite” seats where they got to sit closer to the action.




  8. Totally off-topic, I still haven’t received my Flobert rifle (if I ever get it, the seller is let’s say… particular) but I was able to get more info from a previous owner.
    It’s an 8mm lift block rifle. Anyone know where I could get ammo for it (if it’s available)?

    Thanks in advance,

    J-F




      • :-( I was able to find 7 rounds for 15 euros without the shipping… kinda expensive per shot.
        Anything else could be done? Could it be converted to fire the 6mm CB and BB caps you are using in your test?

        J-F


        • J-F,

          The barrel can be relined for .22 caliber and you should be able to shoot CB caps through your rifle easily enough. You need a good old-school gunsmith for this — not one that thinks gunsmithing means mounting scopes and swapping Glock parts.

          B.B.


          • Oh well… the deal just fell through. The seller is from HongKong but lives near Toronto and doesn’t speak or understand proper english or french and doesn’t understand half of what I’m telling him, now he says he doesn’t know how to ship the rifle even tought I must have explained him how about a half dozen times in different ways, giving him links to online guides, Canada post and other shippers websites and help pages. I would have really liked to get this rifle but after over a week of working on this, I’ve had enough.
            The problem is I’ve never paid much attention to these rifles but since I could get one easily I done a bit of reserch on them and I’m hooked… I want one, BAD.

            Are the .22 (same as 6mm?) CB and BB caps easier to get? These could be fired from a Flobert rifle and pistol right (because I would also like to get a pistol now). Owning a gun that is over 100 years old is appealing to me, especially if I can get it without permit and licensing.

            J-F


            • J_F,

              Many of your questions will be answered in tomorrow’s blog.

              As far as availability goes, that’s something you’ll have to check on your end.

              Yes, you can shoot .22 CB caps in a 6 mm rifle, but don’t expect good accuracy. Turn it around, though, and it works quite well.

              The gun you sent a link for is worth $250-400 US on today’s market, but many dealers confuse it with a zimmerstutzen and think that it is worth a thousand dollars and more.

              B.B.

              B.B.



              • That’s what I was thinking too and why I was asking the seller to send it to me COD. But today I found the previous owner and he told me he sold it to a guy from HongKong which explains why he didn’t understand half of what I was saying. The ad was legit and I don’t think he could have damaged the rifle much without any ammo as ammo other than CB caps and pellet need a license to be bought.

                J-F


    • J-F,

      I picked up a gun magazine (handloading) in the grocery store the other day and they had an article about “reloading obsolete rim fire cartridges”. Naturally this aroused my interest so I read the article. Basically they find a modern center fire cartridge which will fit the chamber. They then silver solder a piece of copper wire in the primer hole and face it off in a lathe so it is smooth. Then they use a milling bit off center to mill a hole near the rim. The hole is countersunk, a .22 blank cartridge inserted using an arbor press and the shell is loaded. I do not know the size of any of the tools or the hole so don’t ask. Note that they only use black powder and lead bullets as these “cartridges” will not stand modern pressures. I think on the 8mm/32 they used 4 – 6 grains of black powder and a pure lead bullet. I think they may have had to do some other machining also. Maybe on the rim and case length. The author went through complete illustrations of making cartridges for an 8mm/32 and a .44 rim fire cartridge.

      Tedious work, but he said the cases last forever once made. Some people will go to great lengths to get what they want. And there is no way I would make and use these “cartridges” for a collectable gun. Black powder is highly corrosive. I know that from my black powder days. Just when you think you got the gun cleaned and properly lubricated so it won’t rust a rust spot or several show up!

      I do not have access to that kind of equipment nor the experience to use it, but I guess if you wanted something bad enough you could pay someone to do it!


  9. BB,
    The front bands of those big EunJins measure about .255-.257. I’ve gently rolled the fronts between 2 metal plates to bring them down to about .251 and they load soooo much easier. I have not shot then for accuracy, but with a 2″ group at 25 yds, it couldn’t hurt.

    Very cool pistol! And accurate!
    Lloyd



      • With all the critter dispatching I do these days, I’m becoming a real skeptic of head shots. Most critters’ skulls are shaped sort of like a peach pit, and at least as tough. So mostly you get your pellet/bullet glancing off of thick bone. There’s not a lot of cranial capacity so you don’t get the hydrostatic effect of shooting a, well, a human, in the head. We all know about those times a human gets hit in the heat and kabango they’re down. Well animals are built a lot different.*

        I’m a “boiler room” guy all the way. Put it into the heart/lung area and chances are much better for an at least fairly humane, fairly quick kill.

        *I do know that with large animals like elephants, there’s a fairly large skull with lots of aiming area and hunters will try to hit one of the flat areas on the skull square-on with a very large powerful round but that’s a whole different ball game.


        • Flobert,
          I have a good friend who has hunted almost exclusively with big caliber handguns for years and he says shot placement is the most important factor in having a quick ending. He has diagrams for all game animals but he said if you are unsure of where to place the shot, picture a line between the front armpits (ok, front leg pits) , and aim for the center of that line.


        • I merely tried to pick a small animal with a head large enough that a 2″ group is bound to hit something… and that said animal would not agree with the “… it couldn’t hurt” part of the comment.

          Just my silly sense of the perverse…


  10. My apologies, but could somebody review the following grammer?

    Does not use on guns that have muzzlebrakes, silencers, fake silencers, shrouds or noise dampeners.

    It appears in the text for the Centerpoint and LaserLyte boresighters… I feel that should be either:

    “Does not WORK on…”
    or
    “DO not use on…”


    • That’s probably because they can’t guarantee good results, a lot of shrouds etc could be a bit off and still work OK.

      If you can get the breech of your gun open to sight down the barrel, you can literally boresight it the original way, move the sights so they point to the same aiming point as you can see dead center out through the barrel. All you’re trying to do is get “on paper” and that will do it, maybe as well or better than the gadgets sold at the store will.



  11. Hi, folks. I was just catching up on the excellent “In Focus” photo blog over at The Atlantic. I thought several folks here would be interested in the “World War II: Women at War” photos:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/09/world-war-ii-women-at-war/100145/

    The first photo is of Lyudmila Pavlichenko, the Russian sniper with 309 confirmed kills. I think she’s been mentioned here before.

    The entire WWII photo series is pretty amazing stuff. Duskwight, even knowing a thing or two about the history, the Eastern Front series is almost difficult to believe.

    PS, Frank B, I believe you! I think BBs are as good at penetrating as they are at ricocheting!

    -Jan


  12. I like the concept of a powerful .25 caliber pistol/carbine with adjustable power. I spent 4 times as much as the talon pistol is priced at on the PA site for a .22 caliber ranchero pistol/carbine with adjustable power. I’m a potential consumer for this new airforce offering.

    If it’s short, lightweight and accurate I could overlook the “black gun” prejudice I have.

    I don’t like the lack of a buttplate or cheek riser. I’m anxious to see the angled buttstock. Why doesn’t airforce incorporate an effective shroud or bloop tube? Quiet is important to me and obviously many other airgunners since there’s a big aftermarket for bloop tubes. My analogy is a car manufacturer that wants to sell their car without a body (buttplate and cheek riser) or a muffler hoping that aftermarket modders will step in and complete their design for them.

    I’m anxious to see the velocities at the mid settings especially #6.

    kevin


    • Kevin…
      A “mid” power level of 6 may not really be “mid”.
      With a fill of 180 BAR my TSS is balls to the walls already at 1.8. My Talondor runs a nice curve at 190Bar and 5.8. It will run flat out at power level 6 at this fill pressure.

      What the power adjustment wheel says does not mean much except to the individual gun.

      twotalon


  13. Is anyone not concerned with these groups? My Springers get the same groups or better at 25yds. JSB Kings always go in the same hole for me at 25yds when using my Condor .25. I even get better groups on my 38yd targets. Worse I get is a small ragged hole @ 25yds. The JSB King is usually the THE most accurate pellet in a Talon/Condor .25 with the Kodiak/Baracuda normally #2.

    I suspect these groups which any Talon or Condor can achieve at 40-50yds, are the result of testing at low power. I would have liked to see the groups at mid-full power for each pellet. I suspect accuracy was not better at higher velocities? I guess I am not impressed with these groups. Am I the only one? Ok maybe I should not be comparing it with a Condor, but I have seen Talons do better with a 12″ LW .25 barrel. If velocity is pretty consistent from shot to shot, then it could be the way they machined the breach-end of the barrel where pellet fit can easily change, but that’s just a guess at this point.


  14. Hey B.B! Hi everyone!

    So I have been wondering this for a long time. Is it safe to use linseed oil to maintain all parts of a spring powered break barrel rifle? When I say parts I mean everything, from the sights to INSIDE the barrel it self.


    • Robert J.,

      I would keep the Linseed oil on the wood parts of the gun, only. As an organic product, Linseed oil isn’t good at lubricating metal parts, plus it can dry and leave a varnish residue.

      B.B.


    • <shudder>

      My linseed oil is in the closet — next to the tubes of artist oil paint, for which it is a dilution medium and clear (and SLOW DRYING) varnish. It is NOT a lubricating oil. I feel better putting Hoppes or Outers gun oil (or even a spray of RemOil or BreakFree CLP [do they still use "CLP -- Cleans/Lubes/Protects" in the name]) on a wooden stock while wiping down the metal parts than to consider linseed oil on the metal.

      Of course, now-a-days I just wipe everything down with a silicone treated gun rag. The trick is to hold on to the firearm with the rag while putting it back into the cabinet <G>


  15. Tom;

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Do you shoot your P1 Beeman more accurately with the scope, or without? From the bench? From offhand? I have an Argentine 98 Mauser with a 29 inch barrel that is more accurate from the bench than my 1944 SVW 23 inch 98k. The 98k delivers better offhand scores. Such is life

    Robert



    • Hoot,

      What customers were asking for an angled butt plate? I never heard anyone ask for one. What I did hear was them asking for one that has vertical adjustment.

      B.B.


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