by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Love my job
- Boxes everywhere
- Good or bad?
- Time adds value
- Designing a box
- Keep or not?
Love my job
I may have mentioned this before — I love my job! I get to handle and shoot airguns every day of my life, and I get to tell others about it. What’s not to like? Well, there may be one thing. Boxes.
My house is taken over by boxes. There isn’t a room in the house that doesn’t have at least one gun and one gun box. What’s that? You think my bathrooms are free? Think again. I bet I have the only guest bathroom in the world with an 1822 French horse pistol resting in the vanity drawer!
1822 French pistol. Guest bathroom, left side of vanity, second drawer down.
The kitchen? Guess again. Where do you think I work on these things? The Paper Shooters Zombie Slayer (and its box) lived there 5 weeks and then the Daisy 853 took over. The Hammerli Trainer for the K31 rifle cycled in and out over a period of 2 months. Believe me, my kitchen has seen its fill of firearms and airguns.
Boxes everywhere
I have a lot more airguns than most, I suppose, because Pyramyd AIR sends them to me to test. They aren’t mine, unless I purchase them, so they have to go back. When they do they have to be in their boxes. So right now there are about 100 airgun boxes — both primary containers and some shipping containers — in my house.
But I also have airguns of my own with boxes. Back when I had five airguns, the boxes were never a problem. But back then I don’t think I had a single box, either. Then I started writing The Airgun Letter and I started “collecting” some vintage airguns. What I do really isn’t collecting — it’s more of gathering and disbursing, because I don’t hang onto most of them for a long time. I might gather a nice set of guns like the Daisy number 25 and have them for 5-10 years, and then get rid of them in a wild potlatch when my interest shifts. One of those was a modern Daisy Number 25 100-year commemorative that was still in the box. That gun will fetch $300+ in the box today — $100 without the box.
Back in 1968 when the Crosman model 600 was still being made, the plain-looking box with the rocket on the outside wasn’t must to look at. Today a “rocket box” 600 commands a premium.
Good or bad?
Okay, you understand where I’m going with this — but which boxes should be saved? Those beautiful strong boxes that have dense foam inserts are no-brainers. They are almost as nice as a fitted hard case. They protect the gun, so saving them isn’t such a leap of faith. But what about the cheap-looking plain cardboard boxes with no graphics on them — keep or toss? Before you answer, think about this. Some of the ugliest airgun boxes ever made are prized collectibles because of where they came from.
The Soviets made millions of 9mm Makarov pistols. Each one was shipped inside the cheapest-looking gray pasteboard box you ever saw. At first glance it’s a tosser, because who would keep such a thing? Well, before you pitch that Makarov box consider this — it has been featured in a great many mystery stories and action novels. Somebody needs one or more Maks and they buy them off a truck parked on a side street in some exotic European city. Author Tom Clancey mentioned that box in more than one of his novels.
This Makarov BB pistol is in the same box that 9mm Makarov firearms were shipped in. It might not look like much, but it adds to the collector value of the airgun.
I have owned two Makarov 9mm firearm pistols and two Makarov BB pistols that were made from the firearm. I can tell you with authority that the air pistol comes in the exact same box as the firearm. And why not? The Soviets, now Russians, are frugal people. They don’t throw much away. If they already have the box the firearm came in, why not pack the BB pistol back inside after the conversion is complete? So, think before you throw those ugly boxes away.
Time adds value
When Daisy brought out their commemorative wire stock BB gun patterned after their first model of 1888, they put it in a vintage-looking cardboard box. They filled the box with excelsior, just like the original box contained, to cushion the gun.
How many original 1888 Daisy boxes do you suppose there are? I have never heard of a single one. If there is one, it is much more rare than the gun it once contained. So, how many of the commemorative wire-stock Daisy boxes do you think there are? The number approaches 100 percent. Collectors realize that the box is part of the collection. The gun without the box is worth only a fraction of what a boxed gun will bring.
The Daisy wire stock box and packing was copied from the original with the same care and detail as the BB gun.
Designing a box
Some of you realize how important a box is. Maybe you appreciate the added value of a nice stout cardboard box with colorful lithographed graphics and a fitted styrofoam liner to hold the gun. Perhaps the gun will never go back into the box after you get it, but you will never forget the first moment you saw it in there. Smart manufacturers realize this and design their boxes accordingly.
Many of you have written comments about those horric plastic clamshell containers in which some inexpensive airguns come. They are useless the moment the gun is out. You complain bitterly about plastic clamshells, and you know it!
When I worked at AirForce Airguns, I watched them go through countless design reviews as they hashed out the details of their boxes. They thought about the box from the customer’s viewpoint and made certain it presented the product well.
Unlike many companies, AirForce didn’t put graphics on their boxes. They used labels on the end of the carton, so one box could fit all their products, and the decision of what went inside didn’t need to be made until the warehouse workers packed it. Money saved that way went into a video owner’s manual years before any other company was doing it. In fact, it is still not that common, even today. Early guns were shipped with a VHS tape inside. Later guns have a DVD.
They also put dense pluck-and-pull foam in each box, with cutouts made to fit any configuration of gun they make. The density of the foam was itself a topic of endless discussions.
I’m quite certain that other airgun companies go through similar gyrations with their boxes. Most of them know how important that first impression is. And the ones that seemingly don’t? Well, guess what that says about the product inside?
Keep or not?
But should you keep the box? That was the question that started this whole report. And here is the answer. Keep the box if you want the gun to hold its value. If you plan on hanging it on a nail out in the chicken coop, toss the box the moment it is opened. And here is an example of what I mean, to illustrate my point.
Look at the picture of the Makarov BB gun again. Notice that it’s still IN THE BOX!
I rest my case.
Hi BB, very good thoughts on boxes. Why in the world couldn’t they design those clear plastic thingies to be able to just pry apart like a clamshell . I keep all mine, cut up all to heck, just to store the owner’s manuals . The el cheapo pistols get a Plano Case. The Colt Commander is one such pistols that I really wished had come in a cardboard box. Most of us I am sure would gladly pay a few dollars more and get the cardboard box. It is not only Umarex that does this. My new Crosman 1377 also came in the plastic garbage. Those pistols will last a long time. Show them some respect and give them q box.
Harvey
Please disregard the rant on the Crosman 1377. I just double checked and it is in a nice cardboard box. This is the 2nd one that I have had. Sure thought that first one was wrapped in plastic. Now I am not sure, but do know the Vigilante is plastic wrapped. Just ordered the Sig Sauer P-226 open and hope it comes in a box. In my ham radio hobby, used radio equipment usually sells better if you have the original box and manuals.
Thanks
Harvey
Harvey
With you on those plastic clamshell packaging. I totally hate that they can’t be closed back up.
So how do you send a gun back to Pyramyd AIR that came in one of those type pakages? They obviously can’t resale the gun like that. That would for sure be counted as a open box resale for sure.
K7uqshooter,
The 1st 1377 I purchased was in a clam shell. The 2nd was in a box. Crosman must have recently changed back to boxes. Good move on their part.
Jim
Hi Jim,
Just got the new Pyramyd AIR catalog today On page 43 they list the Crosman C41, “P38” clone.They have 2 prices for it.$59.99 and 69,99 Boxed . I have one in the box and a nice little double action replica, as it doesn’t have blowback. I keep it in it’s original box. Maybe in the future Crosman will give us more choices.
Harvey
Harvey,
Clamshells are purposely hard to get apart because they are security for the gun and other parts in the package.
B.B.
Which is only needed for retail. This iss why amazon sells a great many things in “frustration free” packaging. Since the item will never be in a retail setting the plastic is not needed. Maybe PA could look into doing something like that.
StevenG,
A vendor doesn’t get to decided what packaging they want. They take whatever the manufacturer is willing to make. Big retailers like Wal-Mart and Amazon have muscles to flex, but average retailers have to take what they can get.
B.B.
I keep my box’s and anything that was shipped in the box with the gun or that was attached to the gun.
The way I see it is if your gun is well taken care of it helps to have the box and things that it came with. It’s just a better presentation to the new owner if I sell or trade it.
And if I purchase or get a used gun in trade I love when the gun comes in the box and everything is there. And especially if the person took the time to open the box and anything inside carefully.
Yes keep the box and (all) that comes in it. And keep it in good shape.
Speaking of box’s and guns.
Punchin Holes
Did you get that new HW30 yet?
GF1
I’m ready to explode! I have checked the tracking and it should be here today! 🙂 that’s even a day sooner than pa guaranteed. That is a box I will definitely keep. The hatsan box is still around but I don’t have much hope for it. Unfortunately my Diana’s came in crosman boxes from the 2nd hand gun store…
PH
Oh believe me I know the feeling.
But just think what it’s going to feel like when it gets there and you finally get to open.
Oh and just a note. If they still do it this way. Don’t misplace the little white paper type package that is attached by string to the trigger gaurd. It has your front sight inserts in it.
How did I know that. 🙂
But let us know what you think when you unbox it. Oh and let me know what the wood looks like. My HW50s had some pretty wood on it.
GF1
I managed to carefully put them in safe place. I’m glad u said that because I wouldn’t have looked twice at that envelope.
PH
No problem.
So what do you think about it?
I had to laugh a todays report. I just went through this a few weeks ago and had to decide, toss or keep? Of course, if the gun came in a box, it got kept. Then, there is the box,… that the gun box was sent in. Good to keep too incase it is sold and needed to be shipped again. You don’t want shipping labels all over the gun box after all. Then there is all of the boxes that other stuff comes in. Scope boxes and all manuals get saved as well.
In the end, I still ended up with an orange crate sized box stuffed full of cut up and broken down boxes that headed off to the recycle center.
The living room and kitchen has gradually transformed into an indoor gun range, 2 pellet stops/traps, chrony at the ready, two 6″ tables, LP air compressor, Shoebox, misc. parts and tools, stacks of pellet cans, various rest, sawhorse table top bench, chair,…….. Heck,….. you get the idea. Lets just say,….. I can relate. 😉
Chris USA
My breezway sounds just like your kitchen and living room. I hen there’s the basement. 🙂
Oh and you know when your talking about your LP compressor. I keep wanting to think in my mind. Liquid Propane. That’s what we say at work when the fork truck runs out of gas. We need to get a new LP tank for it. Just figured I mention that about when your talking about your LP (low pressure) compressor. 😉
Chris,
I’ve been trying to continue our discussion from a couple days ago but have had many problems with my “devices”! I really enjoy the tinkering aspect of airguns and the m-rod offers the most adjust ability of any of the guns I have considered. I have been following your adventures closely and have a couple of questions. After you change the various settings are you able to return to past settings and get basically the same velocities and shot count that you had before? In other words, are settings repeatable?
Bruce
BBB,
Yes, 100%. The striker can be backed out until it stops. The hammer spring tension the same. You can do all of this before you even shoot it. Simply count the turns and record and then return to the factory settings. The port screw can be adjusted once the set screw that is on top of it removed. Just bottom it out, count the turns and return to factory settings.
I believe you can view the manual on the P.A. site. I would start there. You will learn a lot and you will get confused some too. I did. The manual encourages you to play with all these settings and gives you some basic parameters to get you headed in the right direction.
Check it out and see. I can relate on “device” issues. ;( Feel free to ask more. Gunfun1 might be the ultimate info. source. I am still learning myself.
Chris
Chris USA
I believe his is a Discovery.
The Discovery’s don’t come with a adjustable striker in the hammer or a adjustment for spring tension. They are not like a Mrod.
Bruce
Can I answer?
Yes. And the important thing is to record your settings. And other data as well like shot count fill psi and pellet POI/point of impact for the different settings you try.
That is tuning a pcp. But as physics and mechanical things go. Exact repeatability in a tune can vary.
That’s why when I get a good tune I like to leave well enough alone.
GF 1,
I’ve been playing around with my Disco some and am starting to get a little “feel” for the concepts of pcp’s. The balance between all the different components can be manipulated to give so many different levels of perfomance, all from the same power plant! I have already installed power adjuster on hammerspring, HDD, different triggerblade and some adjusting screws inside the trigger. I’m getting about 18-20 shots with only 18 fps. spread but I’m only getting about 22 fpe. More speed! but then I lose shot count! That’s the kind of stuff that’s fun to mess with.
Will have more questions soon. I think my scope is dead as I can see 2 sets of crosshairs. What’s up with that?
Bruce
Bruce,
Get your eyes checked! Otho was seeing two sets of crosshairs and it turned out to be cataracts.
Have someone else look through the scope to see if they see them, too.
B.B.
BB,
I had not even thought about it but you are probably right, I was supposed to have cataract surgery on both eyes a year and a half ago. I had some major health issues and had to cancel. Never noticed the crosshairs till about 3 weeks ago. Don’t like Dr’s much, and tomorrow I go in to have a stint put in the artery in my groin because I have 100 percent blockage in it.
Are we having a good time yet? What was that they said about “our golden years”?
Bruce
Bruce
Take the barrel and breech off and make the hole bigger in the transfer port orifice.
That will bring velocity up and then you can use your adjustable spring tension to control shot count and velocity a little better.
If you do the transfer port orifice you should be able to back your spring pressure off and keep the same velocity. Shot count should go up a little to.
GF 1,
I just put the hdd in yesterday and I wondered about changing the transfer port size. I had ordered some stuff from Crosman and should have gotten an extra port but I didn’t. How much bigger can I ream it out?
Bruce
Bruce
I don’t remember the size of the hole in it right now. But you can open it up with a drill bit. Just don’t get to thin on metal left for where the flat rubber seal seats. You’ll see what I mean when you have the orifice in your hand.
GF 1,
Ok, I’ll ream it some and see what it does. Short of changing the valve spring, is there any way to make it accept a little higher fillpressure?
Bruce
Bruce
Since you already have the adjustable striker spring set up you could go to a higher fill pressure.
The Marauder pistol and 1720T are similar in tube size and design. They both can be filled to 3000 psi.
You could fill to 3000 psi. I did when I had my Discovery’s. But I just want to say try at your own risk. HPA is nothing to play with if something goes wrong. Again try at your own risk. Don’t want to see somebody possibly getting hurt.
GF 1,
Yes, I do have great respect for HPA. I will try 2500-2650 or so and see how it works. Getting small, catch you in the new blog
Bruce
Bruce
Yep.
BBB,
Looks like you got some good info. from Gunfun1 there. Don’t give up on your other possibilities/choices. Do your homework,… as it seems you are.
Chris,
After conversations and research the last few days I have the m-rod back at the top of the list. It would be nice to have one of the higher end guns but for 2 things. I would be afraid to do much to an expensive gun for fear of ruining it’s value, and………. I don’t have that kind of money available now. The Disco can be modded for not too much money and it’s a great platform to learn on so the “fun factor” is still at a high level and, darn it, I just have to shoot it to test my mods out!
I’ll be watching for more mrod stuff too.
Bruce
BBB,
Keep is posted on those mods. While I do not have a Disco, I am sure there are lots of others that do and might be interested into what you are doing and the results that you are getting.
Chris,
I will keep putting up results and keep looking for more info. That’s what’s so great about bb and the people here on the blog, it’s people sharing knowledge and that can only advance aurgunning!
Bruce
BB,
I understand what you are saying. However, the box has kept me from buying several airguns that I wanted. For several years I was looking for a nice Daisy Model 99. One of the dealers who came to the Roanoke show had one that was NIB for $175. I admired it for about three years on his table until I found my 1959 Model 99 for $35. I was not about to pay that for that BB gun because I was going to shoot it, which would have detracted from the value. Then I have to worry about storing it and the box so they do not get messed up.
I am not a collector and I refuse to become one. I have done such in the past and I end up with a pile of stuff that I do not use. I could care less if that Beeman R9 says San Rafael on it. In fact, I would prefer that it did not. That just makes that old beat up air rifle have a price tag higher than a brand new one. It does not shoot any better.
I almost bought one of those wire stock Daisy’s when they came out. Kathy was even going to go along with it. If I could have gotten it for about $100 I would have. I would likely have saved the box, however I would have shot it. It would likely hang on the wall near my BSA and I would pull it down and kill feral soda cans with it on a regular basis. I would ruin the collector value of it. Just to clue you in, if I had an original I would shoot it also. If I could not shoot it, I would not have it.
That’s just me. Just you keep in mind when you get tired of a couple of those air rifles in your collection, let me know. 😉
Yesterday, FedEx delivered the Joshs’ basement Tech Force M8. An interesting unmarked gun arrived, double boxed. After opening the outer box, I removed a completely unmarked box holding the rifle. I was amused to find that some clever Individual at PA had turned a Crosman box inside out to ship the M8.
TJKing,
I’m guessing you won’t be saving that box? I wouldn’t.
B.B.
Hi Tom;
I’ve stayed at your home and am well aware of the boxes and other “stuff” you had to move to make room so I was able to sleep on the futon. Then again, airguns are your business and livelihood so you need to receive them by a delivery service as well as sending them back once you have finished your evaluation. I plan to attend the airgun show at the Arlington gun club so please start to get my sleeping quarters ready.
Bob
No, I won’t keep the box. I will keep the M8 though. This one had no markings on it other than the “not a toy ” warning. Also no blade trigger. A single fairly stiff trigger with no creep. It looks like there might have been some Dremel work done on it.
Tom
I have all my air rifle boxes except for my 1978 BSA Mercury which came in a Meteor box as it had been so long
at the gunsmith he was no longer able to find the box. I have the BSA target holder plus targets and gun oil however. With my air pistol I managed to cut only the one side of the bubble pack so it can be reused.
I know it is off topic however I just bought a Weihrauch HW30 and while reading on the web I see lots of references to the cocking arm rubbing on the reciever. Have you come across this? If not what blog might I put the most faith in (other than yours of course)?
A357man
The newer S model is suppose to have a plastic type giude installed from the factory to prevent that.
My HW50s had it that I had about 3 or so years ago.
A357man
Oh and just cock your gun you should be able to see the giude in the cocking linkage slot.
I am not at home right now but I emailed pyramid air. They stated it is an aftermarket product and does not come one the HW30. I will look tonight and see if they are correct.
A357man
Hmm ok. I never owned a 30. Just going by my 50 I had. That’s a shame if it’s not included on the 30. You would think they would do it for warrenty issues.
Let us know what you find out. I’m interested in knowing if your 30 has it or not.
Oops. I think I threw thousands of dollars worth of boxes out when I moved. Just had too many of them. Since I hardly ever sell an airgun, and shoot them all, I didn’t think they were worth that much! Would the box make any difference in the value of a gun that was shot?
Joe,
It depends. Modern boxes don’t usually add much value, but after the gun goes out of production, then the value climbs. Of course the Daisy were stock was the exception to that, along with the Makarov.
But run-of-the-mill boxes for modern guns still in production are probably not worth that much.
B.B.
And I never keep boxes because I never intend to sell one of my guns, air or firestick. So when I do sell them I don’t have the box.
I know what you mean about boxes. I keep them. I buy almost everything used but I keep the boxes. I am always buying and selling airguns so the boxes come in handy. I used to keep them in the house attic. But, about 5 years ago I built a 24′ x 30′ shop with 24′ x 24′ carport. I have a floored attic above both the shop and carport and stairs to get up there. Now, I have a place for my boxes. I also hang onto other boxes. Some boxes get thrown out but I am always going to the attic either looking for a box or taking other boxes up to store.
David Enoch
Thank you Gunfun for the quick reply. There is nothing like having a new toy and then worrying if there is something wrong with it. I got the 30 because I want to shoot indoors and am worried about pellets powdering instead of squishing and dropping. Does your 50 cause them to powder or just go flat and drop? The 30 may need a big brother some day. LOL
A357man
No problem.
And I guess when you say powdering that you mean the pellet mushrooms and fragments of the lead break off?
And that all depends on the trap or type of back stop your useing and distance.
My target holder /pellet stop allows the pellet to punch through the paper and get captured inside.
It’s a couple 2×4’s Gorilla taped together. Then I tear about a inch thick of pages from a phone book and Gorilla tape it to the 2×4’s. I make it big enough so I can use some masking tape to attach a note book or copy paper to it. Then I can place littstickers or draw little dots on the paper for targets. Oh and I got about a 1/8″ steel plate Gorilla taped to the back of the 2×4’s. My trap will stop a high velocity .22 long rifle rimfire bullet with no problem at 50 yards.
But the main thing is you need something to cath the pellet in and to contain the hit. You wouldn’t believe how well my target holder/trap works. And when the pellet hits it’s quiet. And all I have to do is add more tape every now and then. Actually the more you shoot at it the better it works. It turns the phone book pages to a mulch like. And once I see it start puffing out. I just cut the tape around the phone book pages take it off and add some more phone book and retape.
Let me know if that’s what you meant about powdering.
I have a 22 long rifle trap I shoot into so stopping the pellet is no issue. I never used to worry about it but B.B. had an article in here about pellets turning into powder if they had too much velocity and hit a hard trap. The traps with putty would be fine but I like what I have. I shoot lots of air pistols at it. They are all slow enough that the pellet just crushes itself and drops into the trap. When I pour them out there is not a lot of dust. My RWS 34, however, creates lots of dust so it only gets shot outside. That was one of the main reasons I invested (I love to call buying a toy investing) in an HWS 30S. It was to protect the grandbabies from lead dust. Just wondered if the 50 would be too fast. Maybe I need to look at a different type of trap to give the 34 a little love.
A357man
I think the 30 is probably good ng to be OK. The 50 does make more power. So it might be on the edge inside.
I can’t remember but I think I only shot my 50 outside. And I don’t own it anymore so I can’t check for you indoors. I t you can let us know how yours does inside.
30 just flattens pellets. No dust. I checked no linkage guide. I will watch for any problems and keep that in mind i shoot about 50 pellets a day so it should be broke in in about a month
A357man
Thanks for the feedback.
GUnfun 1, A357man, BB
I was shooting low power .22 rimfires in my basement into a metal trap. I kept getting a metal taste in my mouth. I had a blood test for lead. It was 9. The danger level is 25 i think, but should be zero. I ditched the metal trap and the rimfires. I built a wood trap with a piece of oak angled at 45 degrees so it deflects pellets into soft wood. Everything is backed up with more wood. I also built a trap in a wooden box filled with dirt. A piece of sponge plastic holds the dirt in and holds the targets. Both work fine.
I think the combustion products of cartridges are also something to consider without ventilation.
When i was doing a lot of shooting with my machine rest i also worried about the oil applied to CO2 being blown into fine particles and breathed in, like oil in a diver’s compressor. Things to think about.
Fido3030
Fido3030
That is all good information.
And you mention Co2 and oil mist. I hate to think about that. I can only imagine what my insides are like after breathing 30+ years of oil and smoke and carbide dust at the machine shop I work at.
The more we try to prevent exposure to bad elements the better is the way I see it.
Gunfun1
At one time i ran a cyanide pot in a heat treating business i kept getting headaches. Eye doctor, Dentist and MD couldn’t find anything. Went in the army and they talked about war gasses. Guess what first symptom of cyanide was.
Fido3030
Fido3030
Yep that sounds scary. We use to phosphate parts before painting them at work. All kind of crazy chemical fumes floating around in that area of the shop.
The shop is suppose to be moving to a new building that’s all air conditioned. Hope it’s got a good ventilation system is all I can say. The shop were in now gets pretty smoky in the winter time when the doors are all closed up. So no telling what it will be like at the new building.
Like other people have said, I also throw away the plastic clamshells, but I keep the cardboard boxes with the form-fitted foam inserts. When not in use, the pistol is stored in its box in a basement cabinet. My air rifles are an exception. I have kept a single one of those boxes. Instead, I put each air rifle in a hard rifle case and threw the box away. As I recall, those rifle boxes didn’t contain much of anything to hold the rifle in a fixed position. Without any kind of form-fitted foam insert, there just didn’t seem to be any point to keeping the rifle boxes.
The boxes I have cluttering my closets and basement floor are the plain cardboard shipping boxes. It’s not that I expect to ever ship the pistol or rifle back to Pyramyd AIR or the manufacturer, but those plain cardboard boxes can be cut up to provide additional cardboard panels for the front of my Crosman pellet trap.
Boxes are the bane of my existence!!!! 😉
Before we purchased out home 20 years ago I was an apartment dweller.
Limited amounts of storage…so boxes usually went into the trash. Actually had a regime…about every 6 months I’d go through the house and anything that hadn’t been used in the last year (and was unlikely to be used) was either given to someone who could use it or hit the trash.
Then we got the house with a…basement.
Well, boxes, unused items of any sort…why throw them out when you can stash them in the basement?
Holy heck did it get out of hand…empty boxes from appliances long gone…stuff I hadn’t used in 10 years…all downstairs.
When the boys (now 12 & 15) needed more room and we decided 2 years ago to build them some bedrooms down there it took all day and two trips with a full 1/2 ton to the recycle centre to get rid of all the…boxes.
I won’t keep airguns in the attic anymore. I have many of them stored up there (80 or 90). Temporarily can’t golf, so I have been bringing them down and shooting them in the garage. Horrors, I tried out my Daisy Mod 21 and the left barrel goes bang but nothing comes out. I have several more, 95, the Quik Skill, and maybe 10 more that do the same thing, bang and the bb dribbles out. I read in here one time to put a lot of oil down the barrel, let it stand 24 hours, drain it out and try again. It worked perfect on the 21 but not on the others. The 840s don’t hold air at all. Any suggestions?
Joe,
Each gun is unique, so corrections have to be done on a gun by gun basis. One fix won’t work ion them all.
Oiling the barrels of BB guns does noting. Oiling the piston seals is what gets them going again. That’s where the oil muct go. Sometimes it gets applied through the barrel. Other times there is a separate hole. If your guns have oil holes, that’s where they should be oiled.
B.B.
All of my air guns will never be worth much and I have all the boxes. Its been hard to keep from throwing them away. My wife and I are trying very hard get rid of things making a point to always having a full can for pick up. I don’t think I’ll ever sell any of them so, some garbage day they may go in.
I’ve been waiting for the Crosman custom shop have the barrel I want. They now say it will be the end of June or July. I want them to make a 1300KT with a 14.6 inch Lothar Walther match barrel. I have a 1377 and it is pretty accurate. I wonder how much better a longer match barrel can do.
I’ve kept the box for my Air Force, largely just because it’s so darn good for storing it in. My others have all either been of the $50 variety and not anticipated to have any collector value at all, or been purchased from local friends without boxes. When I get one, I generally just intend to keep and shoot it in any case, so I don’t worry too much about it… Call me crazy, I’ll probably be cussing in a few years when one of my rifles becomes some kind of cult classic, but only if it has the box.
On a totally different note, I was looking around and trying to find an answer to a question on safety that seems fairly obvious to me, but I thought it worth bouncing off of the crew here who knows a heck of a lot more than I do. My most common non-paper-or-aluminum targets are Starlings and House Sparrows, that I pop with heavy JSBs from my Air Force Talon SS at just a hair under 10 on the power scale, where it seems to deliver best accuracy for me. So, I pull the trigger, and a blast of HPA sends that little 18.13gr pellet blasting into the sky. Most often it crashes through a starling, sometimes not. In either case, that pellet is now slanting upward into the blue with a significant starting velocity. Pellets are light-weight, relatively, and have a very low BC so they bleed energy fast. Assuming a ~25 degree minimum upward angle, is that thing still going to be able to break a window or injure someone when it comes back down? I’d *think* it would be like shotgun shot, and after a couple hundred yards would just kind of patter out of the sky like sleet. Annoying, but harmless.
Am I way off-base in that guess? I haven’t really been able to turn up any instances of problems with it, so I’d assume I’m on relatively safe ground, but I’m not ENTIRELY sure. Fired at low angles, of course, all shots are SOLIDLY backstopped, either with a pellet trap, or by ensuring that the target is in front of something suitable to stop a high-velocity rifle projectile.
Komitadjie,
I guess no one thinks about this, or if they do they don’t talk about it. You’re right. A pellet does have velocity after penetrating a bird in a tree.
A test for this could be done by shooting a pellet through an analog bird and seeing the penetration in soft wood afterward. It wouldn’t be exactly what you have mentioned, but it would be a start. I will think about a good way to do this and see what t=urns up.
B.B.
B.B.
As you suggested, shoot the pellet through an analog bird and test the penetration in soft wood, or maybe ballistic gel. You might consider adding a chronograph between the analog bird and the wood or ballistic gel so that you have a chance to get a velocity measurement before the pellet impacts the wood or gel. That residual velocity measurement after passing through the analog bird might let you calculate the relative foot-pounds of energy left in the pellet. You might even consider repeating the experiment with various final targets in place of the wood: glass pane, for example.
B.B.
We have a suet block out back set up on the side of a big maple tree. The tree is peppered with pellet holes caused by pass throughs on starlings .
If you shot a starling, then laid it on a scrap of pine board and shot it again, it is gonna put a hole in the board as if the starling was not there .
Only a very low powered gun like a 10 m gun will have little power left after a pass through, if it does pass through ( on starlings) .
twotalon
My biggest concern is the performance of a pellet after either a pass-through or an outright miss that continues upward at a reasonably high-trajectory profile. It’s going to come down *somewhere*, and I’m curious how far away, and how much damage it could do. I’d *expect* it to be like shotgun shot, perhaps even less because a pellet isn’t terribly efficient at achieving a high terminal velocity, but it makes me wonder. A direct pass-through from close range? Cripes, yeah, that’s not hardly going to slow it down on the Talon!
You could expect a clean miss to go 400-500 yds . Maybe a bit more . A bit less on a pass through .
Don’t have my old talon figures to run through chairgun to find max range .
I know that a CPHP will shoot through a groundhog on a soft tissue hit (gut shot) and penetrate a couple inches into some very hard dry clay dirt . Did this on purpose to see if a CPHP would expand on real tissue . Had just dropped the chuck with a different pellet and it was already dead .
A pellet coming down at max range is still gonna hurt . Best to have nothing but wide open nothing out there for a long ways .
twotallon
Komitadjie,
ChairGun includes a max range calculator. I plugged in a velocity of 900 fps with an 18.13 grain pellet with the default ballistic coefficient. The results were a max range of 419 yards at an angle of 26 degrees with a terminal velocity of 107 fps and a terminal energy of 0.65 fpe. This should give you a fair estimate of the ending energy foa a miss.
BTW, if you don’t have ChairGun, it is a free download.
Hope this helps,
Jim
That’s a really nifty calculator! I just downloaded it for my phone, should be handy, given that I know my muzzle velocity, and all the data for my favourite pellets is already in there!
Based on those numbers, you end up in the range of a “weak” airsoft gun at the muzzle. A “tournament legal” airsoft gun will have about 1fpe, perhaps a tad more, at the muzzle according to the info I’ve found. That makes me feel better! I’m certainly not going to go pinging away in spots where I think it’d be LIKELY it’d land on someone, but it seems that a hit at less energy than an airsoft gun is highly unlikely to do injury, or break glass!
Hooray for solid numbers! Thanks!
You are welcome. I’ve found ChairGun useful for getting in the ballpark. I also find it useful for determining optimal zero range and estimating holdovers.
Jim
That’s an interesting and significant question about retained velocity when shooting birds. I’ve never done this, so I can only theorize. A certain amount depends on how much energy is dumped when the pellet goes through the bird. Birds are not big, thick-skinned animals, so they should not offer much resistance. On the other hand, pellets are not like full-metal jacket streamlined bullets, so they deform easily. There is a trade-off here that is hard to estimate. It is possible that a pellet loses all dangerous energy after hitting a bird.
The more dangerous case is when you completely miss. This would be like the blog post where someone claimed that he shot crows in the head with absolutely no effect. Boy those crows are tough. One simplification is to compare this with the case where projectiles are shot straight up in the air. In theory, what goes up must come down with the same speed although in reality it would have lost a lot of energy with air resistance during the round trip. I heard about a report on mythbusters that said this is not a serious danger. For your case, the projectile is fired at 25 degrees from horizontal. All I can say about that is that in theory a 45 degree angle to the horizontal allows maximum range, or horizontal distance. With air resistance, the angle is more like 30 degrees which is a good approximation for 25 degrees. This means that your pellet will spend about the longest possible time traveling through its arc, bleeding energy the whole way.
It seems like a simple question, but I am not sure how the air time and energy loss compare with the straight vertical trajectory. The time should be less because it depends only on the force of gravity and you have less of an upward component working against gravity. On the other hand, the pellet never comes to a full stop like the vertical case before falling back down and is bleeding energy through velocity the whole time. My guess is that if a bullet has less than lethal velocity after being fired vertically then it should be no more dangerous when fired at the full extent of its range. 30-06 bullets have lost their killing power after 3 miles. And I would think that pellets with their much heavier drag are much less dangerous than that. So, I think you’re okay.
That’s all I can think of as an approximation. Otherwise, I would think that you have to do a very detailed calculation or just experiment and see.
Matt61
Thanks for the well-thought-out reply! I know that shotgun shot is generally considered “safe” to use in that way without much worry about the “spent” shot that misses the bird, so I’d *assume* that a pellet would behave similarly or even bleed energy faster, given the drag-stabilized design…
My primary concern is the million-to-one chance that it will return and strike something either breakable or living, and the amount of damage that could be wrought as a result. I’d *think* that it would be basically safe, in that it would have bled nearly all of its energy into drag before then, but it would be neat to see if anyone has ever tested it! I saw the Mythbusters episode where they were experimenting with rounds fired directly upward, it was fascinating! I know during WWII there was a significant problem with AA projectiles coming back down, but those tended to be both large, and have HE loads.
You might find it interesting that among all of the gun regulations in the UK. A person shooting an air rifle on their own property or property they have permission to shoot on must not allow a pellet to leave the property.
I am SO glad I live in the US. lol
Matt
I found a 45 cal bullet out on an airport ramp that evidently came straight down. It was mushroomed out to twice it’s diameter, glad I was not under it !
Bob M
. For firearms with typical bullets the maximum range is obtained at about 30 degrees. The horizontal velocity will be about 87% of the muzzle velocity.
It’s estimated that it takes about 300 fps to break the skin. (eyes excepted). you could use the B/C (if known) to calculate the range at which the pellet drops below that number and add a big safety factor.
If there’s ANY doubt at all don’t shoot.
At the shotgun ranges i’ve shot at you can see the area where the shot will land and be sure there’s no one there.
Fido3030
Interesting about the boxes. With only 13 or so guns of various kinds I have my whole second bedroom filled with boxes. The sight has left people reeling backwards, especially those who are uptight about housekeeping. But I have put the boxex to use lining my walls to absorb sound from my airgunning, and so far there have been no complaints. In the most recent PA catalog, there is a good article by B.B. on the history of shooting galleries. It’s nice to see that I’m continuing a tradition.
Matt61
It’s all relative isn’t it. Having lots of space for lots of things is no big problem, and having lots of money for lots of airguns makes collecting easy. What you plan to do with any airgun should determine your decision whether to keep the box or not. I collect, but will some day sell most of it off so I keep everything.
Guns acquired without a box and some low cost ones with bad plastic bubble packaging get put in cheep plastic cases or hard shells as appropriate. Outer shipping rifle boxes I fold up flat, stack, and store in my garage attic in big plastic bags. If a box is just a plane Jane but has all the gun identification info on a printed end label, it is part of the collectible product and saved as is.
Storing high end guns in hard shell cases is great but if you have the space to store the product box, do so, and always keep stuff away from humidity. Evaporative coolers will destroy any gun left out over time.
Is it worth saving the box ? A nice gun kept in a nice box is always more desirable for a future resale.
I believe we are in the early times of an airgun explosion and who know what will be sought after in the future. Perhaps not as investment items but something you can enjoy and pass on.
Hell, a 50’s tin toy space guns that give off sparks is collectible now, especially “With the box”. NIB, (new in box) is always an eye catcher for buyers.
Now if an airgun comes in a form fitted hard shell case like my Hatsan Gladius I’d say keeping the outer shipping box is optional for future shipping use only. If you have the space, keep the box!
They keep things out of harms way ! Same with guns in presentation cases.
I hope P/A ships engraved guns in the ‘original box’ and ships the display box with it. My limited edition Daisy wire stock is in its box, displayed in a wood Daisy display box with a clear plastic sliding front. I bubble wrapped it’s shipping box !
off subject, but wow did Rick ever give the new .30 cal break barrel from Hatsan a good review. The more I read and hear about it, the more I like it. No, not to shoot all day. And not just to hunt, but just to have. I was impressed that he hits the 50 yard gong. I would have thought (like he did) that this would be a short yard gun.
http://www.airgunweb.com/hatsan-135-big-bore-review/
I throw out all my boxes. Obviously, the box has to be bigger than the gun, and I do not have room in my 1200 sq. ft. house for both the guns and the boxes.
I have room to be either a gun collector, or a box collector, but not both.
I hate plastic bubble packs. It is easy to damage the contents getting it open, or cutting yourself with the knife or the plastic itself.
Les
OK guys it’s here!!!!
This will be a long one so grab a snack Lol.
My HW30S made it today! I got home at 430 (central) and here it is 4+ hrs later! Hmmm… wonder what I’ve been up to, right? I’ve been out putting the new sweetheart through her paces! I don’t know what u guys expect me to say and I don’t know how I can put it into words. The biggest tell was the way my face twisted into the biggest grin of my life! Even better than shooting a can at 45yards with my 392 and silencing the 10/22 owner who chastised me for playing with a “bb gun”. When he missed the next shot I thought I would never smile wider! But I did today!
I also ordered the air venturi metal silhouette targets. Looks like I messed up!!! I should have bought some yellow spray paint too! I finally tethered the chicken so I didn’t lose him. 🙂 the ol hen is just about paintless… I was just shooting these with open sights. (Tapered post and v notch) I was too excited to change sights! I was also not shooting offhand very far. I was changing positions and enjoying a CONSTANT POI! I held that rifle how ever I wanted!
I didn’t shoot groups because I knew I couldn’t settle in for a serious session, so I just played like a kid and just watched my targets go flying off. The farthest I shot today was around 26-28 yards.
OK the fit and finish. From 10 feet this rifle doesn’t stand out. When u get it in your hands and look at the wood and the bluing and even the trigger you can see simple elegance. There is nothing flashy about this gun. That makes it a perfect fit for me. The buttpad is super nice and effective. Its big and rubbery and mine is seamless when it joins the wood. The grain is very pretty it has a couple uneven spots Of grain on the cheekpiece that just makes it look outstanding. So She’s a looker too!
So the funny stuff. I had a handful of gear running out the back door and I smashed the barrel and Hood into the frame of the screen door! I was so upset! Until i noticed the marks wiped right away. So ive got a REAL finish. After shooting for awhile i felt a small grainy galling and i feared the worst so i took the stock of to see what was going on. It looked like the typical weirauch problem. I started to take it apart and couldn’t go any further! This thing was super tight and I barely got the breech separated from the receiver. I then couldn’t punch any pins out for the linkage so I tried to put it back together. No dice. I had to take it outside to my spring compressor and cock the gun carefully. I ended up leaving a huge Burr on the compressor from the tube! I was so mad that I was ruining my new toy! I put it back together fired and recocked. All the grinding is gone! My stupidity saved the day!
Do I need to mention the trigger? Guys if you have to ask… no but seriously, it is so good the first ten shots caught me off guard. After that I was locked in and now I’m spoiled forever! 😉
Guys if you are thinking about this one don’t think about it do it. Save the money and do it. This gun has more usuable range than any of my springers because of my skill level. The trigger is amazing the gun handles well ( it is light, I have found a way to stabilize it better tho). I will not be shooting the other guns for awhile. My hatsan may get a new home and the m4 will go into storage mode until my nephews are ready. The Diana’s are speaking about mutiny! Especially since I shot one of the crow magnums I bought for the 36 in the hw30!
OK I think that got it. I’m sure that put most of you guys to sleep. I know my thumbs are tired. 😉
PH
Don’t go smash’n the gun around ok. That’s bad, real bad. You bump it around its go’n to let you know. Trust me I know that. Treat your baby right. 😉
And funny you say that about your targets. I had to paint mine white and the paddles black.
Sounds like your happy though. Can’t wait to hear more of how the ole girl does. Ok sorry the 30 does. And don’t get discouraged if she’s finiky at first. Took me about a 1000 pellets through my 50 before she settled in.
Now let’s see what happens if you challenge a rim fire again. 🙂
Punchin Holes,
Wow! I guest blog in the comments section! Do we have another Matt61 on our hands? 😉
Seriously, I think many of us knew how much you’d like that HW 30S. Now you know it, too.
B.B.
Punchin Holes,
Thank you for that blow by blow report. I am glad that it is everything,.. and more,… than you thought it would be.
Final question for BB . Regarding the clamshell plastic containers, with all the pistols you test and evidently return many to Pyramyd AIR, have you developed any kind of a technique to open them up, test the gun, and then use the same container to ship them back ? I am wondering if a guy used a X-acto hobby knife and carefully cut around the outside of the pistol if it would make a neater project. For years my wife , Berniece has collected dolls, and she has all the boxes.
Best wishes
Harvey
Harvey,
I open them with scissors and only at the top. Then everything goes back inside when I’m done.
B.B.
Thank you BB
Harvey
“I bet I have the only guest bathroom in the world with an 1822 French horse pistol resting in the vanity drawer!”
B.B, I think that’s awesome! =D
B.B.
Out of curiosity, I googled your French host pistol, and found a replica available here: http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/P1822FRC.shtml
The guy who runs that shop is pretty hardcore, but also pretty interesting; you might enjoy reading his FAQ page:
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/faq.shtml#28
I surely got a kick out of it, and learned a lot; thank you for the unexpected history lessons about the Revolutionary War (inspired by the picture of your French horse pistol). =)
take care & God bless,
dave
Dave,
Thanks for those links. That is a fabulous price for that pistol! The least they list for on Gun Broker is about $750.
B.B.
You are most welcome. 🙂