by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Hatsan Gladius Long.
This report covers:
- The rifle
- Synthetic and metal
- Repeater
- Magazines
- 200 bar
- Trigger
- Ergonomics
- Rails
- Compressed air
- Impressions so far
Today I start looking at the Hatsan Gladius .177 long. This is a large, powerful precharged pneumatic (PCP) hunting rifle that has a very high rating from satisfied customers. I’m testing the rifle in .177 caliber, but it also comes in .22 and .25. There is also a short Gladius in all three calibers that retails for $50 less than the long ones.
The rifle
The long Gladius is large, weighing in at 10.6 lbs. without a scope. The Gladius is a bullpup design that doesn’t take full advantage of the bullpup style — at least in the long version. I asked for the long rifle so I could test the maximum power (in the selected caliber) and shot count. With a PCP the length of the barrel determines the power to a large extent. Now, you may argue that a powerful air rifle like the Gladius should be tested in the larger calibers that can generate the maximum energy, but others want to see the fastest velocity with the flattest trajectory. Whichever way I go, some will be dissatisfied. And, no, I’m not planning to test this rifle in the other calibers. I’ll let the published numbers speak for themselves. The last big Hatsan PCP I tested was a BT65 QE rifle in .25 caliber. A test of a .177 Hatsan PCP was past due.
The long rifle is 38 inches overall, so it is compact. But that makes the weight even more apparent. The barrel length is 23-inches, which is good for lots of power. In the short version, which is more of a true bullpup, the overall length is 34.4 inches and the barrel is 19.4-inches. Both versions have shrouded barrels that should be very quiet. They rate the velocity for the .177 at 1170 f.p.s., and we know from experience that Hatsan tests all their guns with realistic pellets. That tells me I will be testing this one with the heaviest pellets I can find, which is perfectly suited to a hunting rifle.
Synthetic and metal
The rifle is all black with a tactical look. The parts are mostly aluminum and steel and the rest are rubberized synthetics. The metal parts have a matte surface that won’t reflect light. The butt pad is rubberized for a good grip on the shoulder. The aluminum magazines are unfinished with a matte surface.
Repeater
The Gladius is a repeater, using round clips (Hatsan calls them magazines, and I will use that term from this point on) that stick up proud of the receiver. On most rifles this would present a problem with mounting a scope, but because the Gladius is a bullpup design, there is a fixed scope base forward of the receiver that negates any interference. The rifle comes with 4 mags, so you have everything you need from the start.
Magazines
Three mags are stored in the slots in the bottom of the stock and the fourth is installed in the receiver. To remove it and insert a loaded mag, first cock the sidelever and leave the lever
all the way back. Then push the magazine release bolt forward and up, to lock it in place. The empty mag is slipped out and a loaded one goes in its place. The mags are designed to fit just one way. The rifle is also designed to not allow double-feeding of a pellet. I will test that feature for you.
The mag sticks out of the top of the receiver (upper arrow). Under the stock 3 additional mags are stored.
In .177 and .22 calibers each mag holds 10 pellets. In .25 caliber the number is 9. Because of its shape, the mag will limit the length of pellet that may be used, so that is something I will check carefully when I shoot the gun.
200 bar
The rifle is filled to 200 bar, which is 2900 psi. That makes it very convenient for U.S. shooters whose air supplies are mainly limited to 3000 psi. The promotional data says you can expect up to 85 shots on a fill, but that sounds quite optimistic to me. That will be something I will check carefully — both with velocity testing and groups at 50 yards.
Trigger
The trigger is a Quattro that I have found quite nice on Hatsan PCPs in the past. It is 2-stage and the first stage adjusts for length. You can also change the weight in both the first stage pull and the sear release separately.
The manual says the safety is manual, but that’s not correct. Every time the rifle is cocked the safety comes on. It’s just something to get used to.
Ergonomics
The cheekpiece raises up on a post to align your eye with the scope. The butt pad also moves up and down to help with scope alignment. It also moves out to adjust for a longer length of pull. I will set up the rifle to suit myself before accuracy testing, and I’ll report on that in part 3.
Rails
There are three Picitinny rails on the forearm. The one on the bottom is for a bipod and the two on either side are for anything else you want — like flashlights, rangfinders, lasers, video cameras, etc. The sling swivels are permanently mounted to the stock and are out of the way. They are for 3/4-inch slings, though, which are smaller than normal. But Hatsan includes a fabric sling with the gun, so you’re in business.
Compressed air
The rifle is filled at the front of the reservoir with Hatsan proprietary fill probe. There is a manometer (pressure gauge_ on the front of the reservoir to tell you how much air remains onboard.
Impressions so far
The Gladius is for hunting — I think that is obvious. Don’t think of it as a substitute for a Benjamin Marauder, because it isn’t. It’s more expensive and also more powerful. I think the Marauder probably has the better trigger and, as for the accuracy, that remains to be seen.
As powerful as it is, I think the Gladius has a good chance of becomming a hunter’s primary rifle. The accuracy test will tell.
Maybe they mean manually removed Safety?
Is this unregulated? Does it feel top heavy with a scope attached?
Thank you for starting this review.
I have been wanting one of these since they came out, but haven’t had the opportunity to handle one yet.
I don’t know why, but I think I want one.
Then I see the ad for the Hatsan Bull Boss, decisions decisions.
Funny you should mention the .177 Marauder, as that was the gun I am thinking of selling to make room for the Gladius.
It would be a plinker, or a lower powered hunter than my Talon.
My hunting gun is a tricked out .22 Talon with lots of R&L parts.
Ian.
45 bravo
I think you are going to see that the Gladius is every bit as powerful if not more so than your talon is even tricked out. my 22 cal AT44 with the same 23 inch barrel and 230cc reservoir makes in the range of 38 with 15.89s and 45 FPE with 25,39s JSBs so this is not going to be a plionker even in 177 cal.
BD
BD.
I am not all about power.
I would love to get a Gunpower stealth, it is sub 12 ft lbs, and 500 shots off a 490cc bottle in .22.
But Airforce won’t help with the info to build one, their solution is buying a micrometer tank (an additional $200) and then only get just over 100 shots per fill. And shipping one here from the UK is cost prohibitive.
90% of my shooting is for recreation, some people play golf, I shoot.
Air gun, powder burner, rifle, pistol, shotgun, it doesn’t matter.
Some of my friends boast they can hit a golf ball 300 yards.
I say I can hit a golf ball AT 300 yards, which is more useful?
The Talon was put together as a 100 yard fun gun, it just happens to get 40fpe.
And is my current go to gun for anything except short range pesting, and indoor plinking where I don’t need the extra energy.
I don’t shoot the .177 Marauder much, it’s taken a back seat for now, it launches Crosman premier heavies at 860fps.
It’s just a toy, the Gladius would be too.
“Some of my friends boast they can hit a golf ball 300 yards.
I say I can hit a golf ball AT 300 yards, which is more useful?”
You make a great point here; I have many friends who golf, and that’s nice for them, I guess.
Personally, I find shooting to be lots of fun, as well as a much more useful skill.
A man who knows how to shoot can defend his family, feed his family.
A man who knows how to golf can…put a ball in a hole.
I’m with you 45Bravo; shooting is the much more valuable skill. =)
I don’t like poking holes in paper, it gets boring, but it’s sometimes necessary to get zeroed, or check zero.
After I get sighted in I like to switch to reactive targets.
One of the ranges I belong to doesn’t let you shoot at shorter ranges because of ricochets, you have to have your rounds impact in the berm.
So we take turns shooting dirt clods, pieces of wood, or other stuff on the face of the berm.
We call it “follow the leader”
I pick a small target, call it, if I hit it, I get a point, if you hit it, you get a point, if we both miss it, no points are awarded, then it’s your turn to pick a target, and shoot first.
The person with the lowest score buys lunch.
This is what we did last Sunday at 105 yards, my Talon against a .22 rimfire.
My co-worker says that’s the most fun he has had shooting in a long time, he is normally just a hunter, and had not done recreational shooting in years.
Ian
45Bravo
My .22 Talon SS shoots just about as good as my .25 Mrod out at a 100 yards.
The only reason I say almost is the smaller lighter .22 caliber pellet tends to not tolerate the wind as well as the heavier .25 caliber pellet.
But if I shoot the .22 Talon SS on a calm day it will give the .25 Mrod a run for its money.
45bravo
I am not all about power either but I do like my powerhouse guns as much as my easy cocking and smooth shooting guns. They all have a purpose in my collection and I was just saying that if the Gladius is anything like my AT44 is even in 177 it is going to be a mid 20s to lower 30s fpe gun depending on the pellets used. My 22 cal AT 44 shoots at the advertised velocity of 1070 with H&N 12.65 grain hollow points so there claim of 1170 fps in 177 is a realistic velocity with likely 8 to possibly even 10 grain pellets.
I agree that I would rather shoot a golf ball at 300 yards than be able to hit one 300 yards as I have never seen the thrill in chasing a little white ball across a big green field. My dad was an avid golfer and as a kid I would go with him if he rented a golf cart that I could drive but other than getting to drive the cart I never went to play the game.
I am indeed interested in the Gunpower stealth you mention so do you buy chance have a link or more info on it or is it a modified Air force gun that is not sold here. There is a vendor in Holland that sells and ships gun here at very reasonable prices so it may be worth looking to see if they sell the gun if its not a modified AF gun.
Here is the link to there site so you can search and see if they sell it and what the cost would be. If they do let me know what you find.
http://www.krale-schietsport.nl/en/
I don’t consider my gun toys but rather a hobby with them being the tools I use to enjoy my hobby.
BD
I call it a toy, but that’s in reference to it being recreational gun.
Not one like a daily carry concealed carry weapon. Or a “truck gun” if you are familiar with the term.
Like racing drones, a fun hobby, there are working drones (camera platforms), and playing drones (racers.)
This was shot a week ago by a friend, they had a race locally, here is a first person view (fpv) of the course.
The drones have a camera that send video back to goggles you wear so it’s just like sitting in the drone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujSma-tYMvI&sns=em
45Bravo
Ok now that I have quit spinning in my chair watching the video that is just way to much fun for anyone to have and I bet it took a good while to get that good at flying one as well as that one was being flown. Very cool. I used to race RC cars back in the late 80s and early 90s both on and off road so I know how much fun it can be and I still have all my cars and support equipment today.
I am very familiar with the term ” truck gun ” since I live in the Heart of Dixie which is redneck central and if you own a truck chances are it has a gun in the back window. I understand the reference to it being a recreational gun versus a CCP weapon or truck gun but the more we use the term toy when talking about our air gun the more the public sees them as just that and like PBs they to will be outlawed if our govt deems them as nothing more than toys. That is my only complaint with the use of the term ” toy ” when referring to our air guns. Am I paranoid that would be a very resounding YES since I have been here long enough to see far to many of our freedoms already taken from us by our so called govt that is supposed to be working for us not the other way around. In GOD I trust all others are subject to suspicion.
I am not sure if you are aware or not but you can control the velocity and shot count of your Talon quite easy by the use of o rings or poly tubing placed between the top hat and valve face of the gun so that the hammer can only open the valve so far much like the Bstaley mod on a Mrod works. With some patience and time you should be able to make it a 12fpe gun with close to the same 500 shots as the gunpower has since its essentially the exact same gun unless your tank is not 490cc like the gunpower has for a tank. Or is there a difference in the valve that would not allow the same high shot count out of your Talon.
I have never own an AF gun but have shot them and seen the mods performed to tune them to what an individual want out of them.
BD
I had that done to my first Talon SS. Plus other things. Had a .177 barrel and a .25 barrel in it in the end.
All I can say is the Talon SS I have now in .22 caliber is a way better shooter than my first one. Accuracy, power and shot count wise. But I did not try a .22 caliber barrel in the he first one. So I guess bad comparison.
But definitely like this one better with the spin lock tank and gauge and foster fill fitting right on the gun.
I use to hate taking the old Talon’s tank off and sscrew the adapter on to fill it. Then the adapter back off and then srew the tank back on the gun.
And you know how I determined the guns usable fill pressure. Buy shooting the gun and watching the pellets POI. Had to take the tank off and put the adapter back on and hook to my fill device and watch the pressure come up fast and stop. That told me the guns psi.
So you learned to POI a gun by fill pressure sometime back. Matter of fact that’s how I determined my usable shots on my Co2 guns. Watch POI.
Suppose to say I learned to POI a gun by fill pressure sometime back.
GF1
Like I said I have never owned a AF gun but have shot them and I would have to have the spin lock tank as well since having to remove the tank to fill would be a real pain indeed.
Agreed on determining guns usable fill pressure by shooting till the POI starts to change and record the settings.
BD
Yea, I grew up in the Deep South too, Louisiana.
Back in the 80’s I did the radio control boats, cars and helicopters.
All nitro powered, the electrics just didn’t have the speed, power or run time they have now.
I enjoyed 1/8 scale on road the most, speed, power, noise, it had it all! I started with an old associated rc-250, then worked my way up.
I had long lusted after an airforce gun since I first saw one, but I kept telling myself that the scope to bore height was going to be its downfall.
But they hung around, and kept introducing more models.
So there had to be something to them.
I ran across a smoking good deal on a Talon, with lots of mods, a mad dog stock, and everything I THOUGHT I wanted on an airforce gun.
I wish I hadn’t waited so long to get one.
Then I found myself with another one, then another.
After tinkering with them, reading lots of forums, with all the parts, I started mixing and matching stuff.
I built a condor , this .22 Talon, and another Talon in .177 as a high shot count plinker.
With the micrometer tank, lighter spring from a friend in the UK, an oring under the top hat (airforce version of th b staley mod) I still couldn’t hit the magic 500 shot mark.
Then I found co2 in the airforce guns, and the game suddenly changed.
I had no need for the power of the condor, and sold it, I sold the .177 also.
And put my energy into this one.
With it running on co2, my shot count is well above the 500 I was seeking, it’s in the mid 600 fps range.
And is significantly lower powered than on air.
On air, with 18gr jsb, and a 50 yard zero, I am 1.5 mildots low at 100 yards on 6x,
on co2, I am 5 mildots low at 100 yards, using 4x.
And the local paintball shop fills my 7 and 9 oz tanks for $1 each.
So, 1 gun, 2 massively different power levels.
You just have to know your hold overs at different yardages and magnifications.
45Bravo
I was an Air force brat so I grew up in quite a few places with England being my start as I was born there on an AF base , then Savannah GA at 6 months old, Little Rock AR till 3 years old, Stillwater OK till 5, Bedford MASS till 7, then Satellite/Cocoa Beach FL at 8 till 35 and then Alabama till present time.
I only raced electric as I did not care for the mess of nitro vehicles at the time and nowhere in my area raced them so it was electric or nothing. Have you ever heard of Lake Whippoorwill KOA camp ground and RC raceway just east of Orlando FL. they had national races there on a 1/10 scale exact copy of Daytona superspeedway complete with the 30 degree banking and tri oval. I raced Associated electronics RC10s off-road and Cobras and PR7s on road for the most part and much preferred off road to on road.
I am glad to hear you have your Talon worked out to get the 500 shots you were after so just curious as to why the mention of the Gunpower stealth other than the fact that AF does not offer the lighter spring for sale here as those Gunpower guns look to be AF guns that are just rebranded if I can assume that or are they a complete separate company.
I may one day get a AF gun but like you they will just have to grow some more on me first since the scope mounting that you refer to is just not appealing to me and the ones I have shot really require a different head position to shoot well also and I end up with cramps in my neck.
BD.
45bravo
I checked out the stealth and its a shame it is not sold here and the link I gave you has the gunpower Texan for sale but no other gunpower guns but you could email the owner to inquire if he could/would be capable of getting one since they are very reasonable on shipping to the states.
BD
Giving up the Marauder to make way for the Gladius?! But why? I thought the Marauder was the total class act in every category. It’s my dream pcp. If the goal is greater power, I thought that beyond a certain point (that the Marauder can attain), you are going to lose accuracy as your pellets go supersonic.
Matt61
I like the Marauder, it has been my go to gun for over 2 years.
I still like it, it’s extremely accurate, and quiet, and has a great trigger.
Every time I have gone to use it, it’s been dead on, and ready to go.
It’s just been sitting in the safe while I have been tinkering with the Talon, and unfortunately, getting shuffled more and more to the back of the safe.
I do have an extra .30 m1 carbine powder burner I could sell, it doesn’t get used.
BB
I have the AT44S10 long in 22 so I am hoping this gun in 177 is just as good as my 22 since its the only gun I have that is still completely stock since it is just that good as received.
The trigger is very adjustable just like the MOBU one once you put the correct length screws in it and fortunately the trigger screws in this gun should be allen head set screws so a change of them is not required to fine tune the trigger for your liking.
My 22 shoots very hot compared to most 22 PCPs with 15.89 at 1010 fps, 18.13 at 975 fps and 25.39s at 900 fps so I believe you will indeed need the heavy pellets in 177 to slow them down enough to be accurate as 1170 is way to fast. I would think some of the 16 grain H&N sniper heavies should work very nice in this gun.
Eagerly awaiting the future reports on it.
BD
KInda heavy for a hunting rifle-12lbs+ scoped? and lots of “edges” to get hooked up on vines and branches when you are making your way through the bush. For me, it would not be practical as a hunting rifle. If I had $900 bucks to spend on a rifle I would save another $200 and buy an Air Arms 510 Xtra FAC. It is 7.5lbs unscoped, packs a wallop and very accurate by all reports.
Just my opinion.
Pete
B.B.,
To me bullpups are out of the question, unless they are semiauto. Bullpup repeaters such as this exclude at least 10% of otherwise potential customers — those who are left handed. All bolt operated repeaters are useable albeit un-ergonomic for lefties, but bullpups require completely un-shouldering thee rifle or putting up with working the bolt up against one’s nose.
Can this Hatsan be set up for left side bolt operation like the 2nd generation Marauders?
Michael
Michael,
No left-side swap, but the sidelever is far enough forward that the rifle can remain on the shoulder when cocking. I was planning on covering that in Part 3 in greater detail.
B.B.
This is definitely a gun I’ve been interested in. I’ve since bought a kalibrgun cricket in .22 so I’m doubtful this would replace that. I’m hoping it turns out well.
I like the gun except for two things.
The gauge in the front of the gun. Not the best place for a gauge to be setting next to the muzzle of the gun.
And the weight is on the heavy side to be carrying around out in the feild or woods. But I guess I could over look that if the gun is a shooter.
I’m pretty curious about this gun too. It seems like it’s Hatsan’s answer to the FX Wildcat, except it’s heavier, un-regulated, but cheaper. Looking forward to the accuracy testing, BB.
BB
I am waiting on the new Hatsan Nova to be released for sale and was hoping BB that you have plans to test it when it available for you to do so.
Please tell me you will test it when it is available to do so.
BD
BD,
The Nova looks to be a version of the AT44. What’s the attraction? The regulator?
B.B.
B.B.,
We do not talk much about regulators. Yes, it is another part that can malfunction. But,…. if I could get 50 shots, instead of 32 shots, with the same tune on the M-rod, with less fps spread and less fps drop,… then that would be of (high) interest to me.
If it was adjustable for high power tunes,… and low power tunes,… all the better.
Unless mistaken, they are to remove the variation/variables. That is usually a good thing, yea?
Thoughts? Chris
Ooops,…. meant to say “less (pressure) drop” on the second point. Dang,… I hate that! ;(
Chris USA
The regulator does what it says it is.
In the resivoir where you fill the gun you might uses a high fill psi of 3500 like we do. But you set the regulator at let’s say 2400 psi. Then you tune the gun to 2400 psi.
So what happens is the valve in the gun that your striker hits only sees 2400 psi all the time. So now you can shoot down to 2400 psi until the guns resivoir equalizes to the set regulated psi.
The regulator will make the valve only see 2400 psi every shot. So now with that 3500 psi fill it lasts longer because it only needs to supply 2400 psi to your valve.
It’s kind of like how you fill your buddy bottle to 4500 psi but the gun only needs to be filled to 3500 psi. In that case you are the regulator because you make the gun fill to a determined psi.
GF1,
Thanks for that. Pretty much what I figured. What,.. if anything,… is there (not) to like about that?
Chris USA
I like it. But just another hassle of taking the gun apart and putting the regulator in.
What’s a bummer is that you have to depressurize the gun and take it back out to set it if you don’t get it right.
Then there is the chance of failure. Not sure what it happens often. But my luck it will happen when I need it most.
So for me. As you know I know how my gun works as I have it set now without a regulator. So for what I use it for it performs fine for me.
I just don’t need the regulator.
Chris USA
And yes since the regulator controls the air to your guns valve it makes the air it receives more consistent.
You don’t have that drop of psi every shot like a unregulated gun.
Chris,USA
One more thing to consider with using a regulator is that the hammer will need less inertia to strike the valve with since it is only having to open against the lower pressure of the reg also so the tune is entirely different.
I have two custom made hammers for my Mrods that are only 26 grams and 20 grams as compared to the stock hammers weight of I believe 47 or 49 grams and have 2 regs as well with one for the 25 and one for the 177s. The difference is the internal volume of each reg since the 177 does not need near the volume of air the 25 does per shot. So to get the most out of a Mrod using a reg you need a lighter hammer than stock as well as a lighter hammer spring since you are opening the valve against a much lower pressure and GF1 used 2400 psi as a example but it is much more likely you would be closer to 1800 to 2000 psi for a power tune and 1200 to 1500 for a high shot count tune.
An example is my QB 79 in 177 caliber that uses a paintball tank as an HPA reservoir on the front of the tube and the tank has a regulator in the nose of the tank that I have set to output 1300 psi. The tank is 230cc ( 13 CI ) and hold 3000 psi so I am only using 1300 psi per shot and it is shooting JSB 10.34s at 850 fps with a shot count of 80 before it comes off the regulator and then I get about 10 more still in the 850 fps range before it falls off fast.
I am planning to use the 26 gram hammer in my 25 build since the valve I am getting is a special design that I call a pif-paf valve ( GF1 ) uses a different name for the same style valves that he deals with at work but bottom line is they take very little energy to open even at 3500 psi so a stock hammer in the 25 will be to heavy and cause the valve to waste air.
I just got an email from the guy on my valve and adapter that he is finishing up the adapters so I should be getting them soon. ( fingers crossed )
Hope this helps confuse you even more than you are now, not really I hope it helps you understand how the reg works and what is needed to fully get the most from one in a air gun.
BD
BD
You know that the factory hammer and striker could still be used with a internal regulator in front of the valve. And the gun could still be filled to 3500 psi and the regulator set to 2400 psi. It would still give you a higher shot count and good velocity.
Do you think that wouldn’t happen?
BD
Have you seen these Hatsan regulators yet? They say they are direct drop in. No hammer or spring change is needed.
/product/hatsan-pcp-regulator-at44-class?a=7341
GF1
Agreed the stock hammer and spring can be used with the internal regulators and it will increase shot count and stabilize fps spreads versus no reg at all but to get the biggest gain and highest shot count possible the use of a lighter hammer and spring is very beneficial.
I am not sure how much if any gain in shot count you would see filling to 3500 psi with the reg set at 2400 psi since its likely very close to what your tune is using per shot now so the thing it might do is close the velocity spread up a bit till it comes off the reg and then there would be no difference.
I know you are filling to 3500 psi as a start fill but what is your end fill at the 32 or 35 shots you are getting and where is the knee of the curve in your shot string as far as pressure versus velocity is with your tune now. The pressure that is in the gun at the highest stable velocity string in your curve is where you would want to set the regulator at so it keeps the gun in the sweet spot for the most of the shots from the starting fill pressure. So is that 2400 psi or 2200 or 2000 ETC. That’s the number you need to figure out to set the reg at for the best performance out of it.
BD
BD
That’s hard to say unless it’s tryed to see on a particular gun.
You know the factory Marauder striker spring can be set very light. If the factory spring is backed all the way off for hardly any tension. And the hammer striker adjustment is all the way out so the hammer verily even moves. The gun won’t fire at 3500 psi.
So it is possible to tune a Marauder with a regulator with stock hammer and spring.
But different regulated pressure could work and more than likely would need tryed. That’s what I don’t like about regulators. Setting them anyway. You have to take them out to set them then put back in and try again to see what it comes out at.
GF1
Yea a regulator is something that requires a lot of playing with to get it optimized for the gun its in and yes it can be used with the stock spring and hammer but will not get the most out of it versus if you install a lighter hammer and spring to be able to tune for the lower pressure.
The Mrod can be tuned to shoot very good on a 2000 psi fill indeed but you will be at the lower extreme of the adjustments to do so. If you install a reg with stock hammer and spring it will put the adjustments at the extreme lower range. If a lighter hammer and spring are installed with the reg then you gain that broader range of adjustments back like you have if you tune to fill to 3000 psi instead of 2000 psi fill. That’s the main gain of the lighter hammer and spring is giving you a bigger range of adjustability in the gun.
The one good thing about the reg I have for my 177 is that it has the gauge port as part of the reg so the gauge will read reg pressure not tube pressure so it would allow you to see the actual pressure the reg is set at instead of just relying on the marks on the side of it for a guide of what it is set at but still a lot of work to adjust to get the best setting for the tune you desire.
It does not have to come out of the tube to set it but its just a guess if you leave it in the tube since you cannot see the graduation on the reg in the tube but the screw can be turned with it in the gun and they give you a range the pressure will change with the amount of rotation of the screw but still a pain indeed.
BD
BD
If I adjust the hammer striker and spring like a said. And have 1400 psi in the gun without a regulator I can get a low fps shot.
If I want more velocity I can increase the spring pressure and adjust the striker for a little longer stroke and get the velocity I want. Even at 1400 psi.
With a lighter hammer you will need more spring pressure and stroke to have enough energy to open the valve. Even at a low fill psi or low regulated psi.
GF1
I cannot speak from experience as to the need for a heavier spring when using a lighter hammer to open the valve but from the posts I have read on the GTA that is not the case when using the guys lightweight hammers since he states that you have to use the light hammers with a lighter spring or back the stock one all the way off to prevent opening the valve to far and wasting air.
I disagree that with a light hammer using a low regulated pressure you would need more spring pressure to open the valve since there is less pressure holding it closed it requires less energy to open it. The whole point of using a regulator and lighter hammer is to prevent the hammer from bouncing back and forth off the spring and valve causing what they call the burping effect when fired that wastes air.
I guarantee in your 25 now the way you have it tuned you have hammer bounce that is causing the valve to be opened at least twice per shot if not three times each to a lesser degree and those one or two extra openings of the valve are wasted air.
That is the intent of the SSG I have mentioned which has been proven to completely eliminate any extra hammer strike on the valve after the initial first hit.
The hammer when released by the sear is forced into the valve stem by spring force and opens the valve, then the valve spring along with air pressure in the tube rebound against the hammer throwing it back into the no uncocked spring which in turn applies pressure to the hammer again at a lesser degree than when first fired but still with enough energy to open the valve just a little bit which allows some more air to be released but the pellet has already left the barrel so that air released is just wasted air. The more spring tension you have set against the hammer the more times it will rebound back and forth in the tube between the spring and valve.
The SSG captures the spring and has it preloaded to some extent so that when its cocked and fired the hammer hits the valve and opens it to make the shot but when the hammer rebounds back off the valve spring and air pressure it hits a preloaded hammer spring that doe not release any more energy back into the hammer since it has some preload on it the hammer cannot overcome the preload so it just comes to rest in the tube and does not hit the valve the second or third time with enough energy to open the valve any at all. In the uncocked state the hammer has anywhere from .060″ to .125″ of free travel in the tube so there is no spring pressure applied to the hammer until the gun is cocked. But the preloaded spring has 5 or so pound of preload on it so when the gun is cocked it still has the same 15 or 20 pound of force applied to the hammer when fired. The hammer just free floats in the tube when uncocked and the tests of it in many different models of PCP gun have shown it can in some cases double the shot count of the gun it was installed over the stock configuration.
BD
BD
Nope my gun is not getting valve bounce. When you get valve bounce the shot sounds like flutter noise at the end of the shot. My shot is a crisp single sound. So you can’t say it’s getting bounce. Trust me I have set the Crosman and Benjamin guns up many ways that have the adjustable hammer and striker spring. If you tune them enough you can hear the difference in the shot cycle. How do you think I know when I got the . 25 Mrod tuned right. So if I do have valve bounce as you think I have. I can even get more shots from fill if I took the o-ring mod out and tryed something different. Doubt because I have the gun set up right.
And I still don’t buy the lighter hammer and lighter spring. Maybe a lighter spring. But the lighter hammer is not going to make a difference. If you want to slow the hammer up why don’t you just add some grease to it that would help stop the bounce.
And on that 3500 psi fill with the regulator set at 2400 psi and the gun tuned to the 2400 psi regulator setting.
That would work and still give Mose shot count than what I get now. It would be tuned to get a certain velocity at 2400 psi instead of 3500 psi. So it would give more shot count. But the big thing is every shot would be at a controlled 2400 psi instead of the psi progressively dropping every shot with out a regulator.
And you know what I think about hear say. The other tunes that are showing up out there mean nothing to me. You should know that as well. How many times have you found that when you tryed something it was different results than what is said.
So you f you tine your Mrod without the regulated and let ghter hammer and spring and then with. Then you will truly know. Right now all that were talking about is hear say.
Get your guns going and if ry both ways then at least you will know.
GF1
I was not aware you had the Bstaley mod in the gun since with it you would not have any hammer bounce as you say.
But the SSG mod would increase your shot count by a fair bit as its not hear say it is a tried and tested mod with 79 plus pages of results from more people than I can count so I know it works very well and has the results to prove it all you have to do is go to the GTA and do a search for ” Increasing the efficiency of a PCP The SSG ” and you can read for yourself what it is and how it works. It was designed by far smarter person than either one of us that build his own guns from the ground up.
Everything I have said is fully documented on the GTA with shot string readings and pictures of parts and gun settings and tunes so it is not just hear say but documented in writing and pictures and results.
That is my plan is to try the different mods to find what works best for my needs and use what works but I have faith in what I read on the GTA since its not hear say but tried and tested facts that are very well documented. Just as the test Lloyd has been doing to prove there is not a hard fast limit to how fast a pellet is capable of being accelerated by HPA since his last shot was at 2159 fps and he is going to get to 3300 fps before he is done. So its not hear say at all.
BD
BD
Yep had the o-ring mod done a little before I switched to the JSB 33.95’s
And you don’t have to convince me about the ssg mod working. Your the one that is wanting more shot count. Not me. You got to try it and see.
If you recall my .25 Mrod is shooting excellent the way I have it tuned.
I aint got time to play and see what the ssg will do. I want to shoot not experiment with something that is no use to me.
As I always say. Simple but effective is how I play the ball game. Don’t need extra things getting in the way. I got what I need and its doing very well at that.
GF1
I had thought I remember you saying you replaced the stroke screw with a set screw in the hammer awhile back so did not think you had the o rings in the tube since that would not work without the stroke adjuster to tune with since the hammer would not hit the valve at all.
I understand you wanting to shoot and not experiment with things all the time but to say you would not like another 5 to 10 shots out of your 25 at the same power it has now just does not seem right.
The SSG is very easy to tune with and has shown to greatly increase shot count over a PCP without one so I will be the guinea pig so to speak and do the testing on it but as you say no 2 guns are the same so what works on mine may not as far as setting may not work on yours.
I will keep you informed of how well it works and then you can decide if you want to try it or not. It is not something that needs any attention once set the way you want it for the tune you like.
BD
BD76,
On B.B.’s reply just below, I called you a Guinea Pig too! 😉 I had not even read your comment yet. Hey, I am one too! I wish you the absolute best and am very interested in the final results. B.B. thought that my wish of 50 vs 32 is a bit of a dream. He is thinking more 38 vs 32. That would not be worth it to me for the added time and money.
The GTA site is good and yes, they document testing very well with regards to about anything you could ask for. Of course, I am interested in the .25 M-rod.
I can’t wait for you to get yours done and tested. Yes, I know, that will not happen over night, it takes time. You are doing a lot at one time,… valve, spring, hammer, SSG, regulator, etc.,…. so it will be hard to tell what is contributing to what. Still, it will be interesting to see what the total package will do as a whole.
Stun us all! 😉 Chris
GF1
You need to go to the bottom on your next post since you have no reply links left.
BD
BD
Go to bottom.
BD76,
Good conversation guys. It did help me understand regulators better. Plus, it was M-rod specific. Notes made of the details on spring and hammer specs. and pressure ranges. Thanks a bunch. I think I like it.
Chris.USA
You know that’s what we do and glad it helped you understand more of what the pros and cons of one are since they have benefits and disadvantages.
But once set to what you want out of the gun they are pretty reliable in the newer designs out there. I believe some of the older ones may have had some issues but I have never used one yet so have no first hand experience but do have 2 for my 177 and 25 Mrods .
BD
Chris,
Fifty shots instead of 32? Not likely. More like 38 shots instead of 32. Regs typically don’t add that many shots., unless you are talking 10-meter guns.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you. That is some good info. and will factor into any future decisions. For the trouble and expense, it does seem worth it. I guess Buldawg is our Guinea pig,…. so to speak,…. and we shall see what happens with his soon to be shooting .25 M-rod.
Chris
Chris,USA
Its not the first time I have been the guinea pig so to speak and I am making a lot of changes but not all at once so I will see what works and what does not in the big picture.
I am not planning to put a regulator in the 25 since the valve is a special design that uses half the amount of hammer strike energy to open it versus a stock valve. I will start with the valve and light weight hammer with stock spring as a base line. Then try spring changes and then the SSG as a final result but my result will not really be comparable to yours and GF1 guns since I will have a 500cc tank instead of the 215cc that a stock Mrod has so I can only guesstimate what your results will be.
I can say that there is already documented results on the GTA of 25 cal Mrods getting over 50 shot per fill with a SSG installed but not sure if that’s at the power levels your tuned to on yours and GF1 guns.
I will keep your updated.
BD
B
The attraction is the 500cc bottle on the front instead of a 230cc tube and unless I am wrong I do not believe the Nova is regulated, but if you know it is then all the better.
BD
BD,
I see. Yes, according to the ads the Nova is regulated. But Hatsan just came ot with a reg that can be retrofit to many of their PCPs.
B.B.
BB
I have seen the new Hatsan reg that fits the ATs and Galations and it looks quite well thought out since it threads into the nose of the valve and you remove the o ring off the valve for it to breath since the reg has the o ring on it to seal it in the tube so a very simple installation and easy to adjust as well.
If you look at the link I sent you from the Varminteer the specs for the Nova do not state anything about it being regulated. So if you say it is then you know more than was released at the SHOT shows unveiling of their 2016 models so I do hope it is as I am interested in it for sure.
BD
BD,
I looked it up online and it said regulated.
B.B.
BB
That’s where I got the link I gave you was a online search so was it on Hatsans site that it said it was regulated or do you have the link you looked up.
BD
BB
Missed a B in the reply.
BD
BB
Here is the Nova and it is not regulated per the specs referenced in this early report from the 2016 SHOT show.
http://www.varminter.com/first-look-at-the-new-hatsan-air-rifles/
BD
Agghhhhh, here is my nemesis. A blog search will show that I came up with the name of “Gladius” for an air rifle a long time ago. The trouble is that I didn’t have a gun to go with it, not in reality anyway. I suppose it is now in my interest to see this name become a big success. Surely, this gun has a retracted stock. I don’t know how you would shoot it otherwise. I will be most interested to see the match-up between this rifle and the Marauder.
Regarding the hippos, their speed in water is impressive, but I don’t think it is a matter of pure strength based on the difference between the resistance of water and the air that we move in. For one thing, their cross-section in water is much smaller than ours. And their bodies may have all sorts of subtle streamlining properties, like pellets or bullets, to help them move through water. Water also removes their massive weight which slows them down on land. And even the difference between the density of water and air is not so simple as might appear. The greater density of water gives you more to push against even while it creates more drag. This was demonstrated in an unusual experiment by a professor of chemical engineering. He invented a substance about the consistency of slime and filled a swimming pool with it. Then, he timed the swim team and compared their times with regular water. It turns out that they were very close. So, the slime gave as much as it took away. Hippos demonstrate the unusual properties of water sort of like penguins which I have seen in the wild. No animal looks more ridiculous and clumsy on land but none surpasses the grace in the water of penguins. I bet the same is true of hippos if we could see into the murky water they live in.
Fido3030, interesting that the WWI officers were six inches taller than the enlisted men. I can well believe that as part of the outrageous class consciousness of the time. Apparently, one officer instructed his men to kick a soccer ball during their attack out of the belief that they were too dumb or unmotivated to maintain forward movement any other way. But the statistic I was thinking of was that the life expectancy of second lieutenants leading the charge over the top was something like 6 seconds. So, nobility had its obligations.
Matt61
Matt61,
I have seen video of Penguins under water and launching themselves upon icebergs with a 45 degree slope.. National Geographic I believe. Yes, they are amazing. Very agile and graceful. Some failed,… and some succeeded. But,.. they never gave up. It was mating season,… or something to that effect. All males,….. I suspect. 😉
Matt 61
6 Seconds, wow! I wonder what it was for enlisted men in that insanity. This is the 100th anniversary of the Battle of Verdun. Over 800,000 casualties and the front barely moved.
Fido3030
I waited awhile before posting,… like all day,…. that thing is down right ugly. IMO. I am not sure what the designers are thinking of these days. Each to their own. While the M-rod is a shooter, I will say the same thing. It got an R.A.I stock before I even shot the synthetic one.
I hope it shoots better than it looks.
Chris
Chris USA
The bullpup design is different.
They are kind of gun that allows you to get on target in tighter conditions. Like in heavier woods if your hunting or certain combat situations for the firearm versions.
It’s one of those situations where how it’s used is more important than how it looks.
GF1,
Thanks for the added insight. That does make sense. As I said though,… each to their own. Let’s see if it shoots.
Chris USA
Yep as I said above. I can over look some things about it if it’s a shooter.
BD
Why wouldn’t it work.
All I had to do was take out one o-ring. Remember that was the whole idea was to have more hammer stroke. The valve stem just gets hit inside of the hammer instead of just n the outside.
And yes you are the guinea pig for the ssg. And if I remember right we already had this conversation and I just been waiting for you to get your Mrod together to start trying the things out. But remember I want to no what your usable shots are on paper before the mods and after. That’s the only way were going to know if the mods work. So you got some assembling and taking apart to do when the time comes.
GF1,
Thanks to you too. I brought up regulators and opened up a whole can of worms! 😉 That is good. You 2,… and your back and forth have enlightened everyone a great deal. I said I wanted to know more, and Man did I get it.
I am on the sit a wait side of things,… but at the same time wish BD76 all the best and hope he blows us all out the water with his results. We shall see.
Chris
Chris USA
Tell me this. Since you seen the results my .25 Mrod is getting. Do you think I should risk taking it apart again and not get results I want and then go back to my set up and then the gun don’t produce the same results.
I know how my .25 Mrod shots like the back of my hand. It’s making good power. It’s making a good shot count for the power its making. And I know exactly how it poi’s in multiple conditions.
If your gun was doing that and you had your gun long enough to know things about how it performs would you teat into it again.
Not me. There’s a time to know when to stop and leave well enough alone. And it’s that time on my .25 Mrod. Seriously would you change your gun around if it was performing like mine. Been there done that in the past. It’s time to enjoy this one as is.
What can I say but how I see it.
GF1
No do not change your gun yet let me play with mine to see what is and is not so you don’t have to change your but once if at all. That’s why I said I would be the guinea pig and figure out the bug since my gun is apart and not shooting lets see what I get first.
The only thing that will be a little problem is me have over twice the air volume of you and Chris’s guns so it s going to be difficult to do a direct comparison but it should still be valuable info to know once I am done testing.
BD
BD
Don’t worry about that. Not changing my .25 Mrod. It’s working to good.
And yes I know you are using different parts so we really only know what happens with those prices.
So I’ll have to wait for Chris to do the ssg or whatever it’s called mod on his gun. That would tell a story.
GF1
While we cannot use our guns as a direct comparison we can still use the percentage difference of my baseline and end result to estimate the gain you and Chris could achieve with the SSG in your guns so it will still be usable info to know .
If I knew how to determine when I had the equivalent volume of 3500 psi air in my tank to equal 215cc that a stock reservoir holds then it would be a very close comparison but even if that was possible the valve would likely make comparison difficult since it will flow far different than a stock valve.
Have you opened up the port ID out of your valve or the transfer tube ID or barrel port ID or is it all still at the stock .140″ port IDs.
BD
BD
Opened up the transfer port orifice thru hole to the barrel opened the hole in the barrel for the transfer port orifice. Opened the hole up in the valve where the transfer port orfice sets. Opened the thru hole up in the gage port. And opned the hole up on the resivoir side of the valve.
Don’t ask me how big. I just opened it up as much as I could on the different parts without getting to thin or breaking through to other areas. Was trying to get as much of air flowing as possible or volume of air flowing I i guess.
It was done all just a bit before I switched to the JSB 33.95’s
Do you remember when I told you I wasn’t using the locking set screw for the transfer port flow adjusting screw. I said I had that screw out flush to the outside diameter of the valve and held in place with blue Loctite. Remember I said I chronyed it like that and was getting those high 950 fps numbers with the Barracudas. Well that’s when I did all the work. Remember I was doing 12 hour days a while back at work. Well that’s when the boss said I could stop a hour early and do the machine work if I wanted. So I did.
GF1
Yea I remember you working all those overtime hours and thought you had removed the air screw completely and just had the locking set screw in the side of the valve .
So you have increased the ID from the valve to the barrel of the all the parts and have the air screw at wide open position so it is just flush with the side of the valves port ? Correct.
Opening up the gauge block and valves inlet throat does help with flow as well so you are flowing as much as possible with factory parts which is very good.
Its a shame the Gen 1 valves are no longer available since they have that sleeve that can be removed to almost double the valves internal volume and would really help to increased the volume of air available per shot.
BD
BD
I have the adjusting screw backed out flush for the transfer port flow and blue loctited. The locking set screw is not being used.
GF1
Ok got it now as I misunderstood in our texts thinking it was the other way around.
BD
BD
Yep that’s it.
GF1
It would work with one o ring out of the tube but you have no control over the amount of valve opening travel so I assume you are only using the hammer spring adjustment since you said you remove the air screw as well.
Is that little bit more stroke of the hammer without the stroke screw in it enough to make so big a difference versus being able to have more control over the valve opening amount. I would think that it would be more beneficial to have the stroke adjuster still in the hammer to control the valve better and add more spring tension or up the spring weight to overcome the slightly shorter stroke with the adjuster screw in the hammer. You gain stroke but loose hammer weight since the adjuster is heavier than just s a set screw is so I think the trade off would be negligible at best.
We likely have already talked about most of this but with the way my last few months have been I am lucky to know what day it is much less what we have talked about or not in the last few months. it should be getting better with the family issues being slowly resolved at last.
I am doing one or two thing at a time so I can have a baseline to start at and if you read my rely to Chris above you will see the approach I am going to take to see what works and what does not work.
BD
BD
Yes I can still fine adjust with the screw even with it in the hammer. You have to still have striker adjustment or you wouldn’t be able to tune velocity.
GF1
Well yea I had not thought about the set screw having some range of adjustment but not near what the stock one would have since it has only very ,limited amount of distance it can be threaded in or out and with only 2 o rings you are limited in the amount of contact the hammer will make with the valve stem.
I guess it enough for you to get the tune you like which is all that matters.
Does the nylon plug in the hammer still keep the set screw from moving when shooting like it does the stock one and how long is the set screw you installed as I was picturing a 1/8″ or so long set screw. So I am assuming it longer than that so it still has a fair range of adjustment. That’s one thing I have to fix in my 177 Mrod is the plug that keep the stroke screw from rotating freely is missing or worn out and why mine is set a full CCW now so it will not change during shooting.
BD
BD
And it’s still the adjuster. I faced some off the front remember. So I didn’t loose no weight with that little bit removed from the striker screw.
GF1
Ok so is it still the stock adjuster with just the face of it machined off so you still have the full range of adjustment with it.
BD
BD
Yes.
GF1
Cool that would work well.
BD
GF1,
No problem. I am happy with mine too. 32 for a .25 is pretty good from what I take. I was not saying you should do it. I was just saying that I wish BD all the best. He has a bit more time than we have and seems to stay up on the latest and greatest. That is cool, to me anyways.
Who was it that said,… “tell me I can’t do it and I will consider that a challenge and I will try to give all I got to prove you wrong,…. and that it can be done”,…… or at least something to that effect.
That’s all. No more, no less. I do hope he blows us all out of the water on performance and shows us all a thing or two. If it does not work out that way, then so be it. At least he tried and gave it his very best. That,… I admire,… regardless of results.
Chris USA
But there’s a time to know when to leave well enough alone.
But as far as a challenge goes who knows. Maybe I’ll get another .177 caliber Mrod and take it apart right out of the box and order me some parts and try the ssg mod or whatever it is. Of course if I had a spare 8 or 900 bucks laying around.
Nope. Never mind. Think I’ll stay with what I have. For now anyway.
But yep hope Buldawg gets his .25 Mrod going. Sure been waiting for awhile now for some results. He has had his share of set backs with aftermarket parts for it. And thinking about it. That’s another hassle I don’t feel like dealing with right now. I’ll stick to my tryed and true Crosman product for now.
Anyway we will see.
GF1
I have had my issues with parts but hopefully that over soon and I can get it built and testing with it and remember I only have less than 900 in the entire gun since I got it from you as a package deal with other stuff that I sold to put the cost of the stock 25 at 200 bucks plus the RAI parts and WAR parts its at 700 now. The Cothran valve will put it at 900 and the SSG is less than 10 bucks in hardware store parts so it will be well under a grand when done.
I understand completely how you feel but as we have talked about before that I want what I want and that’s what I will make regardless of what it takes or how long to accomplish it.
It took 4 years to build my shovel like it is today and every time I pull away from a new Harley on it the smile on my face is worth every day I worked on it to have what I wanted the way I wanted it.
It is what it is and that’s how I have always been just as you like it the way you want it. I hope I can help us all in the end have better guns to enjoy.
BD
BD
Well hopefully you get it going.
And Chris gun would be a good gun to try the ssg mod to. Since he’s interested in more shot count.
GF1
Yea I know Chris is interested in it and I have seen documented result of 50 shots out of a 25 Mrod using the SSG just don’t remember what the fpe and fps levels were for that shot count tune with the SSG.
Time will tell.
BD
BD
Since has a good base line on his gun already he could see what the results are with basically a stock gun. He would have to remove his o-ring mod I suppose before he pet the ssg in.
Maybe you can hook him up with the parts. Then he can give it a try.
GF1,
That would be cool, but I do not understand it well enough yet and there is close to 50 pages of stuff to read through to see how it has evolved. Some prototypes look crude, while others look more refined. That could just be the skill set of the person involved. Plus, I am having a bit of a time getting any machine work done, if I would happen to need it.
By the way, I got some bronze bushings that will press into the ones I have. I have not weighed them yet, but will bring the ID down to 3/8 instead if the 1/2″ I have now. That will mimic a solid 1 piece weight.
Will wait and see how BD’s tune does. I still have a lot to do with shooting on getting to know the gun as it is now anyways.
Chris USA
Yep that should work with smaller bushings in the weights you have now.
And yep getting to know your gun makes a difference. That will be the thing. Once your more familiar with how your gun is performing you probably won’t want to change it. I always hate thinking about removing a scope and taking a chance of it not being setup like it was. It’s just all those little things that I add up and think to myself; do I really want to mess with the way the guns performing now. But on the other hand if I’m just starting on a gun then I don’t mind modding it.
Buldawg will get his done and by then you might find yourself likeing how yours is doing to much.
Well it will be interesting to see what you two end up with. I’ll be watching.
GF1
I have given Chris the list of parts needed to make the SSG for his gun and the link to the GTA thread on the assembly instructions. I can get mine made and get it all working right and then make one for him if he wants me to but I know he is capable of building one as its a very simple item to make and well within in his abilities.
Yes he would have the best gun for a stock baseline to use as a comparison.
indeed.
Oh and as a side note I just got an email that my valve and adapters are ready to be shipped as soon as I pay for them so its getting closer to a reality.
BD
BD
Good. Hope you have better luck with this brand valve. Hope you get it soon.
GF1
Yea just waiting for how he wants paid to get it on its way.
The good thing about it is if I decide to go to a 30 or 35 caliber barrel in the gun in the future the valve is already capable of feeding the volume of air required for the bigger calibers. The stock port out of the valve is .250″ so thats why I had to wait for the adapter to neck it down to .1875″ for a 25 caliber.
BD
BD
Sounds good. You will have to send me a picture of it when you get it. Interested in seeing how it looks.
GF1
Yep will send pic when I get it for sure.
BD
BD
Ok cool.
BD76,
Thanks. I only clear out and check my e-mail every few days. From what I have seen thus far, it looks well within my capabilities. I may have to order some parts so that I still have the originals. I believe the hammer gets some work done on it?
Again, I wish you all the best in showing us all on “how it is done”. 😉
Chris,USA
Yes I would order a new hammer so you have a stock one to install if you decide to sell the gun or return it to the state its at now since the hammer does get modified.
Everything else is easily bought at a hardware store.
If you lose the info on its design or parts needed let me know as I have it all saved to favorites for easy reference.
I don’t know if you read my reply above to GF1 but my parts are ready and just waiting for a invoice to pay him and get them in the mail to me so its getting closer as we speak.
BD