by B.B. Pelletier
Today, we’ll look at Part 2 of Fred’s glass-bedding article of the Benjamin Trail NP XL.
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Over to you, Fred!
by Fred of the Peoples’ Republik of New Jersey
Benjamin Trail NP XL
When we left off in Part 1, I had made an aluminum pillar for my Nitro-Piston rifle stock and glued it into the stock. With my pillar installed, it was time to turn my attention to the bedding. Reading the kit instructions revealed something none of my research on YouTube brought up. First, there are three areas recommended for bedding – just behind the barrel where it connects to the action, by the trigger, and also at the tang or rear of the action.
The Battenfeld instructions said these are the principle areas to bed and would return the best results. They also recommended not doing the entire length of the action initially for another very important reason – you need the rifle to sit in the stock at the same height as it was designed to sit. If you tried to bed the entire length at the same time, you would need to remove material from the entire length of the stock. The action could then sit lower in the stock and could even sit unevenly, providing a tilt to the action. The kit instructions suggested going back after the initial bedding to modify the rest of the stock if desired.
You need to remove the finish from the stock so the bedding compound has optimum adhesion and build up a strong layer. With a marking pen, I drew lines where I would remove material from the inside of the stock. Kit instructions recommended removing at least one-sixteenth inch of wood.
This is perhaps the handiest tool I own. A rotary tool used for sanding, grinding, carving and cutting.
[Note from B.B.: I don’t find it that handy, except for making firewood out of perfectly good stocks :)]
I used a Dremel with a sanding drum for the work. This really made short work of removing materials from the Chinese mystery wood from which the stock is made.
The three areas are now carved out of the stock and ready to receive the resin. The closest bare wood is where the stock forearm screws are located, the next area is just forward of the trigger, and the area that’s farthest away is the tang or very rear of the action.
Some adhesive tape was applied to the exterior of the stock near the areas that would receive the resin. This prevents any of the resin that might flow out from adhering to the stock.
Next was the preparation of the action. All fittings and trigger openings and other holes on the action were taped up with electrical tape. I could have used the modeling clay that was included in the kit, but this might have entailed more of a clean-up. The kit states that either precaution is fine. Following the masking, the action was entirely coated with a releasing agent.
The releasing agent and applicator in the plastic cup. In the exact center is the recoil lug that fits around the rear action bolt and slides into the rear of the stock.
Then, I mixed the two-part resin. While the kit gives an approximation of how much each part of the stock should take, I mixed a teaspoon full of resin and hardener and still had mixture left in the cup when the whole job was done. It took less than the estimate.
The kit itself contains enough resin for several more rifles, should you decide to bed another rifle. Another ingredient in the kit are microscopic glass beads that are mixed into the resin. This is used to thicken the resin. The recommended viscosity is similar to warm peanut butter. I needed this thickness because the mixture was being applied to vertical surfaces, and I didn’t want it running down into the cocking lever chamber.
It’s recommended you use a dust mask when handling the glass beads because you don’t want to inhale this stuff. It probably wouldn’t ever come out of your lungs! The kit also provides dye for the resin, and I found that a single eyedropper-sized drop of resin provided a dark brown color.
Here, you can see the measuring spoons provided with the kit and the resin mixed, dyed brown and ready to apply to the stock. The kit even contained the wooden mixing stick. Action openings were all sealed with electrical tape and coated with releasing agent, as mentioned in the text.
With the mixture applied, the action was inserted into the stock and the three stock screws were replaced and tightened. The assembly was then stored in a horizontal position and left for 8 hours. At the end of this time, the stock screws were loosened and then tightened again, drawing the stock firmly against the action. Now, the rifle was left for 16 more hours.
Action resting comfortably in the stock with the stock screws tightened. Duct tape has been applied to the stock to keep any oozing resin from contacting the stock.
If you look closely, you’ll see some resin peaking out between the action and stock.
The moment of truth
Now, the moment of truth had arrived. Would I be able to remove the action from the stock or would I need hammer, chisel and a phone call to Crosman for a new stock?
I removed all three screws; grabbing the action in one hand and the stock in the other, I pulled against the two. Nothing happened. The action was stuck tight in the stock! This is the very fear everyone imagines when starting a glass-bedding project for the first time.
After several minutes of pulling along different parts of the stock and action, I grabbed one of the forearms of the stock and pulled it away from the action. I was rewarded with a loud crack. It wasn’t the stock cracking, but the bond between the stock and the fiberglass giving way. I grabbed the other forearm with the same result. A bit more pulling and tugging and out popped my action! With the exception of the recoil plate which wasn’t coming out without some work with the Dremel and pliers, everything looked good.
Look how the resin flowed down the inside of the stock. That lug did not want to come out and seeing no reason it had to, I left it in place.
The action slid right back into the stock and, even without screws, did not move around. After cleaning off the little fiberglass compound that had adhered to the action, I assembled the rifle and tightened the screws. But I had to wait until the following Sunday to get to the local range.
After the bedding, I had to wait a whole week to get to my local shooting range, where I could test the rifle again from 30 yards. Once I got there, the results were a major disappointment, as the best group I could manage was 1.50 inches. That was no improvement whatsoever!
So tantalizing – 4 pellets within .875 inches of each other — and then #5.
Like Mac in his review of this rifle, I was getting 3 or 4 pellets almost in a single hole or very close together, and then one or two pellets would ruin the group. I thought perhaps I had reached the limit of what this inexpensive Chinese made rifle can produce but I’ll explore a bit more. I’ll remove the shroud again to see if I have better groups with it off.
I’m wondering if the barrel pivot may have some play allowing a different barrel position to the action every time the rifle is cocked? Perhaps some shims might help?
I’ll let you all know if anything changes. What this has shown me, at least with this rifle, is that the action was already well-secured in the stock. While the glass bedding kit was an education and can be used again on other rifles with accuracy problems, it was no help with this particular rifle.
More to come
That was all Fred originally wrote for this report, but since then he’s done some additional exploring and has more to tell. Part 3 is coming!
Fred,
All the breakbarrel guns I’ve come across with accuracy problems (and it’s not that many) have all had lock up issues related to the breech seal. Spent large amounts of time on all kinds of other potential problems before simply replacing a simple breech seal. Good luck with the Benjamin. Always like to read about the problem solving aspect of the guns.
Now you tell me! Derrick, I too learned to check the breech seal early on after working on my RWS 350. In this case, I tested for leaks with silicon spray and even pulled the original seal out (it’s almost like a piece of tubing) and replaced with two o rings – no difference. The original seal was replaced.
Fred PRoNJ
That is, the original seal was re-installed since I found no leaks.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
This kind of reminds me of a glass bedding project on a Ruger 10-22 I own. The article cautioned to do it in parts, as a complete, full action and barrel bedding might not be required. So, per the article, I bedded the action first. Little if any improvement. Next was advised to full float the barrel and did. Same. Little if any improvement. Next advised to just bed the barrel at the tip of the forearm with a bit of upward pressure at the tip. Done and ditto, little or no improvement. We are talking like with all these “improvements” moving from 2″ 25 yard benched groups to 1.5″ benched groups at 25 yards!
The final step was to relieve the upward pressure on the barrel to zero and full bed every thing. Bingo!! Now I am benching 3/4″ groups at 25 yards.
Still not great, but further work on the trigger, the trigger over travel, and polishing and lubricating all the moving parts allowed me to improve the accuracy to .5″ benched at 50 yards! Now I was satisfied. Note, though, that this type of accuracy happened with only ONE bullet/brand. Otherwise, 3/4″ or more typically 1″ at 50 yards was the norm.
So the limited “bedding” you did may still be allowing a ton of movement in the action and barrel. I don’t know.
But I do know my brother has the exact same gun, and the exact same problem, so hope you solve it!
Interestingly enough, I have the Titan GP, with out the shroud, and get the exact same ballistics as his, but much greater accuracy. I mean like 1″ or slightly larger at 50 yards benched and with most pellets with mine, and 3″ – 4″ benched at 50 yards with his.
My first thought was the shroud, since the guns are very similar except for a the different stock and shroud of yours and his. My other hunch is the barrel to breech lock up!
Justaguesthere or JaGH,
welcome to what I consider the best airgun blog on the internet. While some of us monitor the older blogs, the majority of the readers are only on the current day’s blog (it’s published daily) and we welcome off-topic comments. You will have your comment(s) looked at by thousands of knowledgable airgunners and, if a question, will get some well thought out responses. I hope you’ll become a regular reader and even participant.
As for this rifle, seems the best I could do to improve accuracy was just repair the crown per instructions from Larry Potterfield and a few of the readers here. The rifle just wasn’t as accurate as other German made rifles or even Crosman’s own Maruader series and it’s probably a combination of the barrel and trigger. I sold the rifle to a buddy and have heard no complaints but for me, as the saying goes, only accurate guns are interesting guns and my talents as respects gunsmithing are limited, to say the least.
Fred DPRoNJ (Democratik Peoples’ Repulik of New Jersey)
Fred…
Sorry to hear that your work did not turn out with thre results that you wanted.
There are an awful lot of things that can cause poor groups.
I notice you have what looks like a Bug Buster on it. I have two 6x B.B. scopes and do not trust them any farther than I can throw them….and I have only had them on PCP rifles!!!! Got a different scope to try?
Bad barrel, wrong or bad pellets, bad crown, bad seals? Erratic velocity? Velocity too high?
Combination problem?
twotalon
If it’s a combination,it should have come with white or fried rice! I’m still betting on Fred to get this thing sorted out.I certainly admire his determination.
I hope Fred finds his gremlin and kills it.
As someone who is no stranger to airgun problems, I know that they can really p… you off and defy attempts to get them working right.
twotalon
TT,
the original scope that came with the rifle was a Centerpoint and it was pointing so high, I needed a significant shim on the rear scope mount to get it to a usable position. Crosman replaced the scope with no questions asked and it now resides on my HW50S. However, I had the same problems in POI wandering with the Centerpoint as I have / had with the Bug Buster. The scope and mount were not the problem, the shroud is not the problem, the fit of the action into the stock was not the problem, the breech seal was not the problem. Since BB decided to lenthen this piece to three parts, I guess I have to show him how to use a Dremel. 🙂
We can make firewood together although I wouldn’t breathe the fumes from this particular stock when we burn it.
Fred PRoNJ
If anyone has a similar project planned,shoot me an Email and I’ll hook you up with some Kevlar matrix
cloth…..you can use it with or without the glass microbeads.The stuff I use with my resins is called
Cabotsil…..even nastier to breath.It is pure fumed glass,and just floats in the air.Chopped strand
microfiber is also used to alter consistency of the resin mix.I used to be employed to repair power poles with a Kevlar process.I could put a severed pole back together,and make it several times as strong as a new pole! I also developed a product for repairing Woodpecker damage in poles in the Louisiana swamps……that worked very well.
Fred…
There was juat a new post on the “Yellow” about a similar rifle with problems. The culprit was a shroud that was too tight or fitting wrong.
twotalon
TT,
I did look at the shroud to see if the pellets were clipping it on the way out – no problems observed. However, wait for Part III. BB and Edith surprised me as originally I was under the impression that we would lengthen Part II to incorporate my further research and solution but I dont’ want to spoil your surprise.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
Yes, B.B. decided to separate them. I thought they should be combined.
Edith
Troy sent this to me instead of posting it here, so I posted it for him:
Hi Tom,I hope your doing Better and are also feeling Better! You being the Man and the most knowledgeable on the Airforce Rifles,I was hoping you might be able to answer a question for me,(Please and Thanks).
Will the Airforce adapter work on my Axsor Pump to fill my Condor .25 to fill her from my Axsor HP in the field?Thanks a Bunch in advance.
Troy,
As long as the adapter you use attaches to the Axsor pump hose, it will work. I filled my AirForce tanks many times with an Axsor pump. Just be careful when you bleed the base of the pump to not do it on the ground. We unfortunately did that in an American Airgunner pilot and it ruined the pump immediately.
B.B.
Thanks BB.I wasn’t sure where to post it where it was concerning the Condor,so I thought Better be Safe than Sorry,lol. Hope your doing better everyday as we want you around for a long time yet.
Troy
Man, this shooting game is so frustrating at times, especially (IMO) when shooting any kind of target.
It seems no matter what I do, at 30m with my Slavia, the above scenario is common. I’ve standardized on 10 shot strings…I’ll get 7 or 8 that can be covered by a quarter…but a couple will be an inch or two off…for no reason that I can figure.
Sometimes I think actual hunting would be less frustrating. The squirrel either drops…or he doesn’t. And if 8 out of 10 dropped you’d probably be feeling pretty good…because of course my mind would be telling me that the ‘miss’ was only by a hair.
But when there are those glaring lobs an inch and half from the rest…aaargggghhhh!!!!
The other thing I’m realizing a lot lately is how much shooting is a mental game.
Often, after a frustrating day at the range I can go into my basement (where I have a nice 30′ range), take out my 853c or Gamo Compact and shoot a couple of nice targets.
But mentally this week I just haven’t ‘had’ it…I’ll shoot 3 or 4 good shots (9 or 10’s)…and then I’ll set up the next shot (this with the Gamo)…literally feel myself jerk the trigger and watch the hole appear in the 5 or 6 ring.
I’m starting to think that 5+ cups of coffee a day isn’t necessarily a good thing!
CBS,
that’s why Wacky Wayne serves caffeinated coffee at all the field target competitions he holds but interestingly, never takes a drop himself until he’s through shooting. I’m joking about Wayne – many serious shooters will forego caffeine the morning of a competition, I’ve been told, for exactly the reason you state.
Fred PRoNJ
CBSD:
Here is a thing.
When you get to those last couple of shots do you find yourself thinking about what you are doing?
If I’m playing my accordion for instance and start to think too much about what I’m playing,I balls up.
Whatever the sport or activity,people will describe themselves as being in the zone when they perform well.
The zone being a place where you don’t think,you just do.
DaveUK
I know that’s part of it Dave, especially with the 10m shooting. I have a spotting scope set up next to me. I’ll see two or three or 4 shots hit the 10 or 9 ring…then I’ll concentrate so hard on making that 5th shot that I know I start to tense up…bingo…a 7 or 8.
If I don’t look at the scope and just shoot, I’ll check the target after 5 shots and they’ll all be pretty good.
At the range it’s different however. I’ll get a string of good shots…the pellet hitting exactly where the reticle is…and then, ‘what the hell’. I’ll have the reticle centered, my cheekweld is the same (I think), my eye position is the same (I think)…I’ll squeeze the trigger and see the hole appear an inch away from the rest, as if by (black) magic.
I don’t think it’s a pellet issue…I’ve done the Q-tip bit to check the crown…put a piece of tissue over the breech (no leaks)…don’t feel it’s the scope, cause the new Hawke I’m using is much more accurate than the RWS it replaced…everything I can think of.
So I’ve boiled it all down to me…gotta make sure I’m doing exactly the same thing everytime I pull the trigger.
Mental game. I too think that is a big part of my shooting. I mentioned this before about how many shots we shoot. I know the mathematics and statistics of a 10 shot over a 5 shot, but that does not address the “mental” part. I know I do better in my first 5 shots than my last 5 shots.
DaveUK,
Common distractions include thinking about either (or both) how you’re doing (good or bad), and/or what you might (or want to) do. The key is to focus on you’re execution, without the emotion and distraction that comes with either water under the bridge, or anticipation. The capacity to give each individual shot its own due respect and attention is key to the mental game. That mindset alone requires deliberate attention during practice.
Victor
That’s odd. Proper calling of shots which I’m sure you’re very familiar with is supposed to address this very thing, and you should not be getting surprised, especially with all of your experience. I guess even so that it could still be a psychological issue but maybe a mechanical one too. I don’t know.
Matt61
Matt, I’m not sure I get your point?! I can call shots…but the odd surprise still happens, as evidenced by the shots provided on the target in todays blog.
I do think it’s psychological, which translates into physical (snatching at the trigger and such).
I’ve noticed the same thing in my photography. I’ve got thirty years experience as a documentary photographer with a couple of books to my name. Many of the images are in low light…meaning slow shutter speeds.
It seems every couple of years I’ll start getting ‘camera’ issues…blur and out of focus.
At least that’s what first blamed it on years ago. After having my cameras checked (OK) I started doing some tests…shooting on a tripod at the shutter speeds in question (1/15 and slower).
Low and behold…tack sharp.
Even though I know all the mechanics of handholding at slow speeds…or proper artillery hold and trigger release…every once and a while all the knowledge just seems to fade away.
Really…I’m a pretty good shot…on a good day I can place 5 shots in row in that little itty-bitty 10x ring on the 10m rifle target.
But that’s what separates me (and I suspect many others, including many here) the Olympic champions…they don’t have these mental blips.
Pretty sure that my wife calls all the shots…
derrick,
Of course she calls all the shots. My congrats to your misses for doing such a splendid job of training you 🙂
Edith
CowBoyStar Dad,
I sat through a seminar taught by the Army Marksmanship Training Unit, and according to them EVERYONE has lapses in one fundamental or another, even Olympic champions. That’s what causes shooters to slip from whatever plateau they were at. The most common area is trigger squeeze. The solution is usually to dry-fire more. My own personal area of weakness is in EVERYTHING related to gripping the gun, squeezing the trigger, and follow through. It takes practice, practice, and more practice.
Shooting is EXTREMELY mental. Lanny Basham became devoted to solving the mental game after having what he himself called a mental breakdown DURING an Olympics. Another American great crossed-fired in the process of ALMOST winning a Gold AND setting a world record. The difference between world class shooters and the rest of us is the amount in which we vacillate. The reason for that difference can mostly be attributed to the amount of practice one might get.
Victor
CBSD/Fred,
I’d like to offer sympathy but all I have is empathy.
Fred,
Nice job. You’re bold and fearless. I like that.
Here’s my two cents if you decide to do anymore bedding in the future.
Never used the battenfield product. Sounds like a typical two part epoxy with a fiberglass additive. Acraglass is similar. These products are marine epoxy based and a good marine supply store will usually have 6-10 additives that vary in “glass bead” size. These products are difficult to get right and they shrink. I like Plastic Steel Putty for bedding.
Best release agent is kiwi shoe polish. Use the kiwi neutral color. Apply one coat and buff it. Apply a second coat and leave it alone. If you have trouble getting the action out of the stock after it cures for two days put the gun in a chest freezer for an hour. Action will pop right out.
Plumbers putty works well to keep your bedding compound out of where you don’t want it. Painters tape is easier to remove than duct tape and doesn’t leave adhesive residue on your stock like duct tape does.
Thanks for taking all the time to share your experience.
Anxious to hear part 3.
kevin
GREAT TIPS, KEVIN! Especially about the releasing agent. Thanks.
Fred PRoNJ
Kevin,
Okay, pardner! That’s a guest blog if ever I heard one. Since I am getting ready to glass-bed a centerfire soon could you please elaborate?
B.B.
B.B.,
I typed you a reply and it never showed up. ??
You’ve probably forgotten more about bedding rifles than I know.
I know that bedding a gun won’t make an inaccurate gun accurate. It will shrink groups in a good rifle but won’t make a gun group that wouldn’t in the first place.
There are many types of bedding. Skin bedding, full bedding without pillars (Mid Tompkins is a big fan of this), full bedding with pillars, bedding while floating the barrel, etc. In my experience smaller calibers (especially rimfires) usually benefit from full bedding and larger calibers usually benefit from bedding with the barrel floated. There are diehard proponents of each method. Hotly debated usually.
I like Richard Franklins method and follow it closely. He’s a fan of pillar bedding. I have his 3 hour dvd around here somewhere. Would you like to borrow it?
kevin
Kevin,
No, I’ve never glass-bedded a rifle before. But hold off on the video, please, because I’m still weighing my options for the rifle in question. There is another process that also guarantees good results.
B.B.
Fred,
Heck of an effort. I had a Benjamin Legacy SE with the nitro piston and it shot groups like you are getting, but at only ten yards. Worst of any rifle I have ever owned. Tried a couple different scopes and all the normal stuff but made no gains, needless to say it went away.
Hope you have better luck.
Happiness is an accurate gun.
Hope everyone had a great holiday.
We spent our long weekend at our place in the mountains. I went to the firearm range on Friday and Sunday. Friday at the range was pure frustration. I switched scopes on the remington 513t and winchester 61. I ran out of adjustment on the scope on the 513t and had to use mil dots at 100 yards. I was testing new ammo and couldn’t get groups smaller than 6″. Yes, 6″. After only two hours at the range I left. Put the guns away and had serious thoughts about selling that 513t. This is the 3rd time I left the range frustrated at that gun. Had problems with cheap set of rings. Had problems with the previous scope.
Woke up early Saturday morning. I cleaned the barrel on the 513t. Shimmed the scope (pain in the butt with warne rings). Tightened the stock screws. Yes, they were a little loose. Stupid me. I was back at the range around 8:00AM. No wind.
Best 100 yard 5 shot group was just under 1/2″. That’s the best I’ve done with the 10/22. I was ecstatic. I’m keeping the 513t.
kevin
That group was just a fluke.Sure you don’t want to sell??LOL…..It always reassures me when others have problems like what you described.Me feel less dumber.
Kevin,
Wow!!! 1/2″ groups at 100 yards with a 10/22? What size groups do you get at 50 yards?
Victor
Victor,
I only shot out to 100 yards after I got all my problems sorted out. My guess is that they would shrink by 1/3. I’ve talked about my favorite .22 LR ammo here several times. Bought 2 cases last summer and only have about 2500 rounds left. The ammo I was using in the 513T is the wolf match with the yellow diamond on the outside of the box. Heavily lubed but works well in many of my rimfires.
kevin
I’m pretty well sold on the Wolf target ammo for .22 LR and have my five year supply.
Matt61
Also, what ammo are you using?
Aww, that’s not so great. I can do that at 30 yards 🙂
Fred PRoNJ
VERY FUNNY!!! 🙂
Kevin,
I’m not surprised by the accuracy of your Remington. I started competitive marksmanship with a Remington like this. Before I could move onto an Anschutz, I had to clean a 40 shot match in competition with the Remington. Great starter rifle for someone looking to break into competition.
Is your 10/22 custom, or a target model? I bought a target model, and recently replaced the stock with a Bell & Carlson Odyssey stock. The original stock made it impossible to shoot prone, and I couldn’t use a sling, as it didn’t have an accessory rail. This stock has an accessory rail, so I can set it up like a small-bore target rifle. Unfortunately, it seems that since replacing the stock, I’ve had trouble finding time to get out to the range. The one time that I did, I ran into a bunch of problems with my scope. Not enough eye relief. I recently changed the base to move the scope further out. I’m setting it up as a prone rifle until I get either my Anschutz or FWB small-bore rifle.
Also, I haven’t moved up to real “target” ammo like Wolf or Eley. I bought about 40 boxes of Federal auto load target ammo to break this rifle in. I also bought several other kinds of ammo for comparison. This Federal ammo is the smaller bulk box with 325 rounds found at Walmart. Not bad, but not great. Much more sensitive to wind than I remember when shooting my Anschutz with Eley. However, compared to other ammo, this Federal has been super reliable. I had my first dud in over 3000 rounds a couple weekends ago. I can expect at least one dud (misfire) per 100 rounds of Remington Target.
I don’t plan on changing anything else on my 10/22. It’s not a “real” target rifle. – It’s a 10/22 that just happens to be more accurate, and with a better trigger than lessor models. 10/22 are known for their reliability, and my understanding is that this reliability starts to suffer when too much is done to accurize it. My main criticism of my 10/22 T is that the first shot is nowhere near the following shots. Apparently, if you want to shoot 10 shot groups, you have to have a leading 11Th round. Apparently, the first shot doesn’t load the same as the remaining shots from the clip. I’m sure that you, B.B., and others can explain exactly why this is. I shoot guns, but know very little about them, otherwise.
BTW, I’ve checked out other blogs for insights on 10/22’s and other things . None compare to THIS blog for pretty much anything related to shooting and guns. Every time I take my Ruger out, I also take at least two air-rifles. The experiences are complimentary, and I would say that I learn more from springer’s than the firearms. Just my personal experience.
Victor
Just an hypothesis from mental visualization…
Loading the magazine you probably seat the shells all the way to the rear. Chambering the first shot merely uses the bolt spring stripping a round from the magazine…
Subsequent shots, however, have recoil effects: inertia may result in the rounds in the magazine shifting forward some; also there may be the jar when the bolt hits the stop (contribution to the recoil) which could lift the nose of the round upwards in the magazine as the bolt is no longer covering it.
Victor,
My 10/22 was acquired through a trade and had been customized. Mine also has a B & C Odyssey stock. Here’s the list of things the guy did before trading it to me:
Ruger 10/22 early anodized receiver
B&C Odessey stock fully bedded (about 1.5 in. of barrel)
Kidd faded flute SS bull barrel
Kidd trigger
CPC reworked bolt
WK buffer, nemo bolt handle, polished rod, SSS spring, skeeter v-block
My point today was the 513T shoots as well as this highly modded 10/22. I like the trigger better on the 10/22 but not sure how long I’ll keep it now.
I won’t spend big money on ammo. The wolf match is about my limit and I only use it for long range shooting. I plink at 30-40 yards with the american eagle stuff.
kevin
Kevin,
You’re 10/22 sounds like a very nice plinker (a keeper). Congratulations on your 513T!
Victor
Fred,
Despite the results, you’ve made a formidable job. And you’ve gained some experience – that does worth something.
So… I think I’ll wait for part 3 before saying anything 🙂
duskwight
FredPRoNJ:
Sorry to read you haven’t had much joy accuracy wise thus far.
I nicked an idea off derrick when he refurbished an XS B3-1.
He put thin rubber bushes between the stock and action where the bolts go through.
Not having any rubber bushes I used an old computer mouse mat and made bushes out of that.
I couldn’t tell you it improved accuracy but it did stop the stock screws from loosening up as much.
The work you have done might do the same.If indeed that was a problem of course.
DaveUK
Fred,
Can’t help but ask: that’s the oddest workbench I’ve ever seen– is it an old chest freezer or what?
(Yup, I know– figures my attention would be captivated by everything but what I’m supposed to be looking at…)
AlanL
LOL! Leave it to a sharp-eyed shooter to notice weird, out of place objects. That workbench, down in my mancave/basement, is an old steamer / storage trunk that I “inherited” from the purchase of my first house. It was painted by the previous/original owner and it came with me to my second house. It now serves as a storage locker for my shooting supplies, a bench rest for my reloading press and table for resting “stuff” on I haven’t figured out yet where to put.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
Sounds like an excellent experience. Wish I was as handy with guns. I’m about as ignorant about anything gunsmithing as they get. I wonder if there’s any kind of break-in period after doing this kind of job?
Looking at the first test group that you provided, it does seem that something changed (only having two pictures to compare). The previous group seemed more “random”, and on average, wider per shot. This group was tighter, with the exception of that one shot, way off to the right. Could that be explained by wind, or maybe shot execution? Shooting for groups like, you, Mac, and B.B. do is not easy.
Good report!
Victor
Victor,
I don’t count myself as handy so much as studying a procedure and then diving in. My work is far from the craftsmanship of Vince or Duskwright. If I had done this for say you, you’d probably return the work and demand your money back! I also don’t count myself as an expert marksman – average at best. Folks like you and Mac have at least 10 years of experience on me as I came fairly late to the wonderful world of firearms and even later to air guns.
Seriously, this was very frustrating. Typically, it wasn’t just one thing with this rifle. I had re-crowned this rifle and that reduced the groups by half but I wanted better. As you saw, I explained that I had also examined the breech seal, replaced the trigger (this trigger is horrible – it’s single stage with creep for about a yard but the GRT-III has atleast made it smoother) as I hoped that would help accuracy, examined the shroud to make sure I wasn’t hitting it with a pellet, changed scopes and mounts, tried holding the rifle in different positions, rested it on my forearm instead of an open palm, and checked stock screws for tightness.
The range I go to is open to the elements – it is enclosed at the ports, has 2×8’s angled along the sides where the range begins and vertical 2×8’s on the roof. I do use a little tell-tale on my shooting board to account for wind direction and strength as a result of my one bench rest competition in Waxhaw, NC, another humbling experience. But the rifle would always spit out one or two pellets that just acted as fliers, as if something were loose and shifting around on the rifle and I just wasn’t willing to leave it alone. I’ve had targets where the first pellet hits the x-ring and the next 4 walk around the x-ring with this rifle.
I will tell you that the third part will tell all and will be a lesson to all on this blog. Well to most on this blog.
You’ll have to “wait for it”.
Fred PRoNJ
Fred,
I am sad because I understand I was among other things to drive you towards your current misadventures – but trust me, I’ll give any info that can help.
After studying your photos I came to conclusion that IMO bedding is done a bit wrong. In my experience for springer its area must be as large as possible and as close to previous shape as possible, not the current way. Well, that can be made easily – you’ve got good set of hands, trust me.
I’m waiting for part 3 and i say – never give up, every stone on the way – is a chance to hone your blade. That helped me to get over many obstacles, and trust me at the start success was rather a matter of chance, than a matter of skill 😉
duskwight
Fred,
I really look forward to the next report.
Thanks,
Victor
TEASE!
Hinting that /something/ did solve the group size matter, and having it put off for a few days…
{Now if I could figure out what changed over night… Sage used to pull in some 200-300 messages [which was rather much, even a weekend usually only results in 150 or so new posts] but today it only pulled the most 12 most recent… Nothing from previous days threads}
B.B.,
I’ve typed two replies to you. They must be getting caught in your filter.
kevin
Kevin,
I have you whitelisted, but the spam filter still caught your replies. Don’t know why. I see no relationship between your IP address & any spam. Your latest comment was just approved, & your earlier one was deleted since it was duplicate.
Edith
Edith,
Thank you. Mybe I’m just too mouthy today.
kevin
Fred, that’s stout work with the glass bedding that I am in a position to appreciate at the moment. As for the results, I don’t know. My question about pillar-bedding and glass-bedding has matured a bit. If the purpose of the pillar-bedding is to raise the action and detach it from the rest of the rifle, the glass-bedding would seem to be at cross-purposes in trying to reattach it, so this would seem to support your observation that the rifle is already pretty well-bedded. While some kind of bedding is clearly important, I wonder how it ranks among all of the factors. Savage’s latest big idea to improve accuracy was its Accu-stock which not only holds but actually squeezes the action in place. Results seem to be equivocal without this new approach adding much. Also, I’ve wondered how durable glass-bedding is. Ron Smith, maker of new M-14 rifles of the military, is solidly against glass-bedding military rifles. Obviously, one doesn’t plan to abuse an airgun in the same way, but I’ve always wondered how susceptible the glass is to cracking.
DaveUK, if Pippa doesn’t want to be an ambassador, maybe she could be tempted to be a physical fitness advisor to the president the way that Arnold was. She is probably more qualified than he was. If she can finish a duathlon–20 mile run and 30 mile bike ride in 5 hours, I bet there isn’t any reader of the blog who could equal her….
Matt61
Matt61,
The primary purpose of pillar bedding is to provide hard inserts so they can prevent the action from crushing the bedding when the screws are tightened.
kevin
Hey, I can do 30 miles in 5 hours on my bike – NO PROBLEM. Matt and Duskwright, to pillar or not to pillar – it was a question as there were various opinions I ran across in my research. As I remarked in Part I, I could only safely pillar the most rear screw as the forearms were just too thin in my opinion, to accept a minimum pillar. My research only showed that the pillar was supposed to be just barely below the surface of the stock. I believe the thought is to pull the action tightly against the stock but not compress the stock at the attachment point.
Duskwright, I can’t tell you how this ended without spoiling it for everyone else so I can only say, “wait for it”.
Now to take care of that little punk, Alberto Contador. I’ll lead for Cadel Evans. Only problem is these guys in the Tour de France go 70 KPH (40 miles per hr) on level roads. I can only reach that speed downhill.
Fred PRoNJ
hey guys how do you load a haenel 28-r?
wprejs,
Have you removed the tubular magazine from the rear of the action? You should see how it’s loaded with the mag out.
B.B.
Do you know where I can find pictures of a heanel 28-r with the mag out so i can see the mag?
wprejs,
Yes. There is a photo in the Blue Book of Airguns.
I thought you had the gun?
B.B.
Sadly I’ve only had a haenel 28 not a 28r..
Fred,
Thanks for fighting the good fight. Even if this glass bedding thing turns out to be a total bust, you’ll have taught us all something…….uh…. right? Seriously, a nice job and your perseverance is much appreciated.
You mentioned wondering about a a loose pivot joint. Have you been able to cross that off the list? I’ve checked that by just laying a gun on its side on a solid table and putting a heavy bag on the stock to hold it still. Then just push up and down and side to side at the muzzle with light pressure and see how much movement you get. I had a Gamo 1000 that I tried that with and didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at what I saw. I did a Rube Goldberg fix on it and it worked like a charm and has held up for years.
Anyway, I am looking forward to installment number 3.
Thanks a bunch,
Lloyd
Howdy! I have a question that is way off topic. I know a lot of you are also firearm enthusiasts. I am in the market for a lever action .22 . The one I like is the basic Henry. Blue finish, not the magnum. Anybody have or had one of these? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks. Toby
Toby T.,
I’ve only owned one .22 cal Henry. Terrible experience. Cheaply made, loose fitting, screws wouldn’t hold, horrible accuracy as a result.
I was looking to replace it recently and the marlin, winchester and browning came highly recommended on this site by those more experienced than me. I ended up with a first year winchester 9422 and couldn’t be happier. If you choose a winchester buy one that was made before 1975 (I think that was the year, do some research) since the quality of the blueing, stocks and barrels went downhill quickly after that.
kevin
OK you guys gotta stop doing this…
I can’t stand it anymore, not like I don’t like talking about firearms in an airgun blog, like I sooooo jealous of you guys. Last week-end when you were all talking about .22’s I was going insane. All these nice little, fun, accurate rifles. I wish I could get them as easily as you guys can.
J-F
J-F, Sorry! I can understand your frustration. I live in what is left of “The Wild West”. The gun laws here are still reasonable. Toby
J-F & Toby T,
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx?SearchType=0&Timeframe=0&Keywords=marlin+39&Cat=3023&Items=50
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx?SearchType=0&Timeframe=0&Keywords=winchester+9422&Cat=3023&Items=50
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx?SearchType=0&Timeframe=0&Keywords=browning+bl-22&Cat=3023&Items=50
kevin
Thank you very much Kevin… You’re REALLY helping me out here!
I shouldn’t click on those… I’m trying… Ugh… Who am I kidding here. I’ll just click them and drool a little.
Last week security (my wife and kids) had to pry me out of the Bass Pro Shop in Hampton VA store because I didn’t want to leave…
J-F
Kevin, Thanks for the input. I have just started looking for one. The local gun shop has Henry, Marlin and Browning in stock and can order whatever I want. They rarely have a good used one. I asked the salesman what he thought about the Henry, he praised it but maybe he was blowing smoke up my you know what. It is definitely less expensive than the others. Like almost anything else, you get what you pay for. I will do some more research. Thanks again. Toby
Toby T.,
I did a lot of research and my prejudice for winchester swayed me. I own a lot of brownings and never will say a bad thing about them. My favorite shotgun is a citori. I have a browning takedown that comes loose quickly but is easy to tighten up. One of my newest, favorite rimfires is a browning t-bolt that I’ll never sell. The marlin 39 came highly recommended (by Mike, Robert in Arcade or B.B. or all…I just don’t remember) and the trapper model was one I almost bought. Fit me very well. See above links to help in your research.
kevin
Kevin, I can appreciate your passion for Browning firearms. I own only one and it was a gift from my father. About a year ago he gave me his unfired BAR Mk II Safari in .270 caliber. What a gift. I put a scope on it and took it to the range, super nice shooter. I don”t have any unkind words for Browning either! Thanks for the links. Toby
Toby T.,
It was the marlin mountie model that I almost bought not the trapper model. Sorry for the confusion.
kevin
Perhaps if you fallow the Larry Potter Midway USA method of Recrowning the barrel, you will see major improvements in accuracy. I am tempted to pick up one of these Crosman Venom guns in .177 (a sporting good store I frequent is selling them for $139.99) but it would be useless if it can’t group well.
Lee,
good advice but I’ve already done that. It reduced my groupings by half. Here’s the article or blog:
/blog/2011/03/recrowning-the-benjamin-nitro-piston-air-rifle/
As to buying one of these rifles, I would do it again now that I know what needs to be done to whip it into some semblance of accuracy but you do need to do a bit of work – re-crown, perhaps install the GRT III trigger (but don’t expect a trigger that approaches what Benjamin uses inthe Discovery or Marauder) and my findings coming shortly in Part III. Even with all it’s shortcomings, I like shooting the rifle.
Fred PRoNJ
Oh, I didn’t realize that was the same air rifle that had be recrowned. I have used the GTR III triggers in the past and have helped improved my out accuracy. Thanks for the post!!
Ok I have a question. I am new to this site. So hopefully I am posting this is the correct place. I have a Benjamin mod 312. Its appox 45 years old if I remember correctly. its a cal 22. My question is : is there a peep site that will fit this rifle?
fourdogs,
Yes, a Benjamin 312 would have to be a .22 as the designation for the .177 is 317.
Yes, there are peep sights for the gun, but your gun probably needs to be drilled and tapped for the sight.
Crosman Customer Service should be able to tell you which sight they use on this gun.
B.B.
Thank You so much. When I dug the rifle out of the shed I had forgotten that the rear sight was gone. My wife’s requested I scare some squirrels because they are eating her hummingbird feeders. I know squirrels will eat most anything ,but for the life of me I never knew they ate plastic. Anyways I do remember the rifle was pretty darn accurate. I wish I could find the original sight . I’ve looked online and can’t seem to find one anywhere so I thought the peep sights would do good as a replacement . However the way the rifle cocks the Williams -64 I didn’t think it would work.
fourdogs,
And by “scare”I hope you really mean kill, because this rifle is too powerful to use any other way.
Look at this sight:
/product/air-venturi-williams-64-peep-sight?a=5
A good gunsmith could fit this to your rifle, I believe.
B.B.
Yes Sir “Kill” was the word I was meaning. I have one screw hole machined where the sight will go now its where the safety was located many years ago lol seems screws have a secret way of working themselves out. I did hunt squirrels with this rifle years ago. Its still has great power I am surprised coz the unit has not seen oil in many years lol 5 to 7 pumps was all I ever needed. I was shooting with just the front site the other day with 5 pumps and still packs a wallop !. I really like the Williams (crosman-64) peep site . I will purchase it from Pyramyair . I think they sell it on their site.
You gonna eat ’em, or do you think their plastic diet may have ruined the taste?
twotalon
fourdogs,
Just bear in mind that this sight is for the latest rifles, so it may take some modification to fit yours. I mean besides the additional screw hole.
B.B.