Leapers saves the day: UTG 3/8″ dovetail-to-Weaver adapter

by B.B. Pelletier

Recently, a reader asked me when I was going to write the part 4 I promised for the Crosman 2100B multi-pump rifle. I did Part 3 in March, and to be honest, I’d forgotten that a part 4 was promised.

Part 4 is going to be a 25-yard accuracy test with a scoped rifle, because I felt the 2100B deserves it from the performance it delivered in the 10-meter test. Fortunately, the rifle is still available to me, so I planned on doing my report today. All I had to do was install a scope on the scope rails and….

OH, NO!

[Let’s pretend] the only scope available to me is already installed in Weaver scope rings. Whatever will I do?

Well, before 2012, I would suck wind. I’d sit on the curb and cry my eyes out, because I had the wrong scope mounts for this rifle. Fortunately, we now live in a world where the UTG 3/8″ dovetail-to-Weaver/Picatinny rail adapter is available. And I have one! Oh, happy day! The test will proceed as planned!

Readers with better memories than mine will recall that I showed you this adapter back in the SHOT Show report, Part 2 this year. You may have wondered why I made such a fuss in that report over two confusing pieces of metal I held in my hand. Today, you’ll find out why.

This is a UTG product. UTG stands for Under The Gun, one of Leapers’ trademarks. So, you’ve already learned something, haven’t you? This adapter attaches to the base of a Weaver (or Picatinny) scope mount and converts it the mount to a 3/8-inch dovetail. Now, 3/8-inch — the rimfire dovetail width — is so close to 11mm — the airgun dovetail width — that it also works for most airguns. I say “most” because there may be a few very wide 11mm dovetail scope bases that are too wide to accept this adapter. I don’t know that — I’m just saying that there might be.

The bottom line is that this adapter should work for all rimfires that have grooved receivers as well as for most airguns that have an 11mm dovetail scope base. And please know two additional things – – first, that 11mm is a nominal width and in reality the dovetails are from about 9.5mm to as much as 14mm wide; and second, that Weaver and Picatinny bases ARE ALSO DOVETAILS! It is completely incorrect to refer to an 11mm dovetail as just a “dovetail,” because there are other different kinds of scope bases that are also dovetails. There — you’ve learned something else!


The UTG 3/8-inch dovetail-to-Weaver/Picatinny adapter comes as two identical pieces. Both piece have a vertical scope stop screw that can be removed for guns that don’t need it. This photo shows both sides of the adapter.


The adapters are spring-loaded. When the Weaver scope base screws are tightened, these jaws will also tighten on the 11mm dovetails.


Looking down on the Crosman 2100, we see the 11mm dovetail on top of the action. That’s where the scope rings are clamped.


This Weaver scope mount is too wide to clamp to an 11mm dovetail rail, plus it has a transverse key that locks it in place, but the 11mm rail has no slot to receive it.

Those four pictures show you how these scope rings and bases work. You can see that the Weaver clamp will not fit an 11mm dovetail or a 3/8-inch dovetail that would be found on an air rifle or a rimfire. So, a Weaver mount will not attach to those guns — until now. The UTG adapter converts the Weaver scope ring base to an 11mm base.


The UTG adapter has been inserted into a Weaver ring base. The base will now fit an 11mm dovetail. Because the 2100B is a pneumatic rifle that does not recoil, I removed both scope stop screws before installing the adapter.


Here you see the adapter in the Weaver base from a side view. Notice that the adapter is only a few hundredths of an inch taller than the original base when installed. It makes no practical difference to the scope’s height over the bore. The amount the adapter overhangs the ring base at either end is meaningless, as the adapter is locked in position by the Weaver cross key. As long as the adapters fit the gun you mount them on, you’re good to go.


This view shows exactly how the adapter works.

Is this adapter useful?
If you need to mount Weaver rings to a gun that has either 3/8-inch or 11mm dovetails, this adapter is the only way to go. I don’t know of another way to do it. Some of you are probably saying to yourselves, “Why wouldn’t I just buy 11mm rings and be done with it?” Well, that’s certainly what you had to do before this adapter came along.

But some of you have a favorite firearm scope that you like a lot, and maybe you have it installed perfectly in a nice sturdy set of Weaver rings. You guys understand the benefit of an adapter like this, because it allows you to use something you’re comfortable with. It installs or removes in seconds, allowing you to use that scope wherever you choose. And, because the adapter comes with its own built-in scope-stop pins, it fits almost every airgun you can name.

I will mount this scope on the Crosman 2100B next and conduct the 25-yard accuracy test I promised many months ago.

66 thoughts on “Leapers saves the day: UTG 3/8″ dovetail-to-Weaver adapter

  1. {bad wolf — go to bed}

    This is a UTG product. UTG stands for Under The Gun, one of Leapers’ trademarks. So, you’ve already learned something, haven’t you?

    Ah… and here I’d thought it might have been some anglicized acronym for a chinese company that Leapers was importing stuff from…

    and second, that Weaver and Picatinny bases ARE ALSO DOVETAILS! It is completely incorrect to refer to an 11mm dovetail as just a “dovetail,” because there are other different kinds of scope bases that are also dovetails.

    And for the epitome of dovetails, track down an older Sako rifile and mount set (I sure hope my father hasn’t misplaced the mounts — they weren’t cheap in 1972). Sako used a double dovetail.

    Viewed from the rear, one finds a 1/4 to 1/2 inch tall base with a distinct dovetail taper. But viewed from the top, one also sees a dovetail. The base is wider toward the muzzle end, and the front base is wider than the rear base. The rear base also had a notch cut in the rear end for a recoil stop/positioning pin.

    In a way, if it wasn’t for the stop pin controlling how far forward the rear mount could move, firearm recoil would actually tighten the mount rings to the bases.


    • I can see where that would be very useful on some of those older big game rifles or even some of the newer monsters they have created, like the T-Rex.


    • Wulfraed,

      The entire time I was writing this report I was thinking of Sako scope mounts. I had a Vixen Mannlicher that had them, and you are right — nothing else on the planet will work!

      B.B.


      • My father has an old Sako Finnwolf (the somewhat rare lever-action) in .308Win… With the even rarer peep sight that mounts on the rear scope base. I don’t think it’s seen 50 rounds since purchased around 1972.


  2. I already have these in my PA Wish List. I would really like to see you test them on a magnum sproinger so we can see how well they hold up under “adverse” conditions.


    • RR,

      I thought about that. And of course that was the first thing that Mac and I thought of when we first saw them at SHOT. So perhaps I do need to do a test like that. I need to give it some thought, though, because it’s hard to test for longevity.

      B.B.


    • RidgeRunner,

      These new UTG two piece adapters seem to be an affordable alternative for scope mounting on many guns.

      Because of my multiple scope mounting nightmares on magnum springers I personally doubt these two piece adapters with single screws would work long term. Even with the benefit of utilizing the built in stop pin I think these single screws will work themselves loose. Maybe you could loctite these screws but wouldn’t that be defeating one of the primary benefits of these adapters which is ease of transferring a scope from gun to gun?

      You may want to look at the Hawke adapter that PA carries. One piece, 4bolts for clamping pressure on your dovetails and a stop pin that can also do double duty since it can be dialed to aid in elevation adjustment (compensate for droop).

      /s/a/Hawke_Sport_Optics_1_Pc_Elevation_Adapter_3_8_to_Weaver_Rail/4163

      kevin


      • The weaver mount is the one that provides the pressure, not the adaptor. Will that be enough for a sproinger like the Patriot, that is a good question. I for one no longer own a sproinger, so it will likely stand up to my uses. I also have the Hawk on my Wish List.


        • RidgeRunner,

          Understood. The two piece dovetail to weaver adapters that the article is about today rely on the clamping pressure from the mounts to secure themselves and the adapter to the dovetails on a gun.

          I was merely pointing out another style of dovetail to weaver adapter that provides more clamping pressure since you implied that you wanted to know how they would stand up on a magnum springer.

          BTW, I don’t think the two piece adapters would work at all on a Patriot since they have cross slots, similar to early FWB’s, that are the provision for a scope stop rather than a hole to accept a vertical pin.

          kevin


  3. The price is right too! I’ve bought more expensive alternatives that I wasn’t particularly happy with. I think I like these better. I really like value-added products, and this certainly qualifies. The price makes them very low risk.




  4. I really like this clever design….and I have dozens of mounts & rings that end up sitting around due to not matching the application I have in mind.That will be a thing of the past now.Great problem solver.


  5. Would appreciate some help from everyone here on the blog. Need two minutes of your input.

    Since B.B. is running low on blog topics I’m going to suggest an article that he has hinted about several times. Here’s the proposed title:

    “HOW TO GET THE MOST ACCURACY OUT OF YOUR SPRING AIRGUN”

    Seems most of us that have shot at least two springers have our own mental check list when we get a new gun or when our old gun starts shooting poorly. I’d like your help in creating a comprehensive list of “things to check” when accuracy is our shooting goal. It would be helpful if B.B. could provide a link to his previous article(s) on each item since he’s elaborated on almost every subject. Here’s the beginning of the list. If you’re a shooter, Please add to it:

    1-Have you properly cleaned your barrel? New barrels benefit from cleaning and so do barrels that have a lot of pellets down the bore. (link to cleaning a barrel with jb bore paste)

    2-Are your stock screws tight?

    3-If you’re shooting a break barrel, have you checked your pivot bolt? (link to the R8 article, part 2, I think, shows great photos of the loose pivot bolt and instructions for tightening)

    4-Have you experimented with different pellets and a variety of weights? Have you tried seating the pellets flush and then seating them deep?

    5-Are you shooting with open sights? Do you have the correct sight picture? (link to the old article on shooting with open sights)

    6-Did you mount your scope properly? Do you have an indicator that shows whether your mounts are moving? Did you use the right mounts? Webley/FWB etc. have different provisions for stop pins. Did you know many scope mounts allow for the clamping feet to be inverted for a firmer grip on your dovetail?

    7-Have you dialed out as much parallax from your scope as possible?

    8-Have you experimented with the artillery hold? Different hand placements, grip pressures, cheek pressures etc. can make a huge difference.

    9-Is your cheek weld consistent?

    10-Have you checked your breech seal?

    11-Is your scope over adjusted for windage and/or elevation causing the erector tube to float?

    12-Are you following through on your shots?

    I’ll stop at an even dozen. Would appreciate you adding to this list.

    kevin



    • Kevin,

      You have a good idea here. I am wondering if we could somehow make an “accuracy” tree, where, depending on the type of gun you are shooting and the sights you are using, the tree could give you suggestions for things to improve accuracy.

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        An accuracy tree makes sense. Good idea.

        If it includes pcp’s, msp’s, co2, ssp’s etc. we need to supplement the list, i.e., is your barrel band touching, are you shooting on or off the power curve (one of my favorite articles you did on December 31st years ago), etc. Gonna be a big tree.

        I’ll add ” check your cant” and consider an anti-cant device to the lists.

        kevin


        • Edith,

          put as asterisk next to this topic for the book, too! Another chapter completed. However, I’d put “checking the stock screws” as No. 1 as that needs to be done EVERY time you take the springer off the shelf to use.

          Fred DPRoNJ


          • Fred DPRoNJ,

            How true. Brass screw cups and/or vibratite for stock screws.

            Another item for the check list…..Have you checked your scope mount screws and scope cap screws to make sure they’re snug?

            kevin


    • Kevin:
      I’ll add one: is the stock on your rifle poorly inleted , and are the bearing points of the action where the action screws are located, properly bedded?


    • Kevin,
      That’s a great list! One other thing that affects accuracy testing is target height. A more complete solution is finding your “natural point of aim”, i.e., that overall hold where the gun sights/scope align perfectly with the target without any amount of influence from the shooter. That should be the first thing that a shooter establishes regardless of type of hold. A shooter should be able to close their eyes, relax, and then open their eyes, finding that they are still aiming dead-center.

      Ok, regarding target height. I have found that the further off I am from horizontal aim (i.e., the target is inline with my rifle when pointing horizontally) the greater the effect of recoil. If I have a sheet with multiple bulls, the further down I go, the wider my groups open up. The further up I go, to a point, the more relaxed my gun behaves.

      “Natural point of aim” is about canceling out bias in all directions. It is every bit as critical to great shooting as proper trigger squeeze and follow-through (which I’m very glad that you mentioned).
      Victor


      • Victor,

        Thank you for the contribution.

        Good points about “Shooting Techniques”. The close your eyes, relax, open your eyes and are you still on target drill is a good one.

        I think a summary of basic shooting techniques belongs on the check list. Too often I read, “Just go out and shoot. No substitute for trigger time/practice.” I disagree with this to a large extent since practicing good shooting technique is very different from just pulling the trigger over and over and expecting dramatic improvement without refining technique. Practicing bad habits is only going to ingrain them and lead to frustration.

        I’ve been around enough new shooters, especially the last several years, to know that practice alone will not wring all the accuracy out of a gun if you don’t know the basics of shooting.

        kevin


        • Kevin,

          You are absolutely right that shooting lots of shots is all you need. The quality of practice matters more than the time. So you need to have a mental checklist of things that must be done CONSISTENTLY. The goal is to obtain consistently good execution. The hardest thing to beat for most are mental errors. Mental errors usually result in anticipation and jerking. Anticipation and jerking tend to correspond to not following through. Another strong element to good execution is relaxation of both mind and body.

          But let’s not forget that some guns are harder to shoot than others. A heavy trigger, for example, introduces challenges that scream for the kinds of consistency in your list, like consistent hold and cheek-weld. But the harder a gun is to shoot the more you must TRUST THE FUNDAMENTALS, like follow-through. When we are mentally frustrated, or even defeated, we tend to not trust in the fundamentals and waste a lot of time digging a mental hole for ourselves.

          Lones Wigger says that we have to be smart and problem solvers to shoot well because no one else can capture your experience for you. But that doesn’t mean that we can’t learn from others. However, it’s probably more fruitful if we see for ourselves how a particular solution works in solving a difficult problem.

          Again, some guns are just harder to shoot, so we somewhat have to compromise in our technique. Again, a heavy trigger is a good example of this. With some triggers we don’t have the luxury of squeezing the trigger in perfect form. The strain can be too much for us both mentally and physically. In such a case we sometimes need to bring the trigger back faster than would otherwise might be considered ideal.

          Stan Hulstrom actually doesn’t talk about “squeezing the trigger” so much as he does
          ****************************************
          “deliberately bringing the trigger back and causing the hammer to fall such that sight alignment is not disturbed”.
          ****************************************
          THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL GOAL! A wealth of information can be extracted or derived from that one statement. All fundamentals learned and gained from countless hours of instruction and practice exist to satisfy that one statement.

          Victor


          • Victor,

            Your comments about a trigger brought back memories of competitor Don Nygord and his sentiments about triggers. Had to search my archives but finally found it. Hope it’s relevant in your broad range of experience.

            “RELEASING THE SHOT by Don Nygord
            August 14 2009 at 8:12 PM Jim E (Login troutmd)
            YF
            We all need to pull the trigger to release the shot and Don’s notes are an excellent integration the body and mind sequencing.
            *************************

            Now being retired from competition for almost two years, it is interesting to observe the changes in my skills and the effect on my precision shooting due to the lack of concentrated training. The first lesson to be relearned was that trying to use a “breaking glass” crisp trigger will result in some awful slow fire shots!

            The problem with this kind of trigger is that you MUST be moving your trigger finger throughout the holding and aiming period! But, you cannot do this easily with a super-crisp 2nd stage setup on your trigger. Yet, I would guess that 90% of the “bullseye” shooters try to use this setup and also only begin applying the second stage or final release pressure AFTER they have recognized they are in the “best” part of their hold! This, ladies and gentlemen, is TOO LATE.

            Today, we pretty much understand how the mind controls the body and agree that the sub-conscious aspect of the mind is the controller of all the elements in delivering an aimed shot. The only conscious act by the shooter should be the on-going effort to maintain the best alignment of the sights he can while all else is being coordinated by the sub-conscious.

            It is also my belief that once the sub-conscious has been correctly programmed (by careful training on each element in the shot delivery process) that it will integrate the observed movement of the gun AND the movement of the trigger finger as it adds pressure to the trigger and moves to the rear to give you the result you want. However, that finger HAS to be moving! Otherwise there is no pressure/movement curve to integrate with the gun movement. Instead, there is a convulsive movement sometime during the hold – probably due to a conscious effort by the shooter. Not good.

            The better method that will greatly benefit your performance is to first optimize the mechanical part of the equation by giving the 2nd stage of the trigger setup a bit of “roll” or movement before release – instead of a ‘super crisp break’. This bit of movement is what is needed by the subconscious so it can “time” the rate of release to coincide with the sight-aligned gun’s movement into the ‘sweet-spot’ that results in a 10.

            Next, you need to analyze the movement pattern that you have TODAY. Maybe, for many reasons, you aren’t as steady as a week ago or even yesterday. This is NOT important – really! What is important is to recognize the current pattern: How far into the hold cycle is the ONSET of your steadiest hold? How long does this period last? (This is also not very important, because you should never get to the end of this short “steadiest” period or even to the middle of it!)

            Then, by dry-firing, you find the RATE at which you must apply pressure to the trigger so that the sear (2nd stage) releases JUST AS YOU BEGIN THAT STEADIEST PROTION OF YOUR HOLD. Now at first this is a bit scary: “What if it goes off early?” Well, what if it does? Actually, you will probably get no worse than a 9 and you have about a 50/50 chance of a 10! The release will be clean and your hold is probably better than you think, anyway. For the next shot just use a slightly slower rate. The really bad thing is to not have the rate fast enough and you end up near (or past) the end of the steadiest period before the shot releases. Now you WILL have some bad shots!

            When you have the rhythm for this shooting session down, the benefits are enormous: First, you expend far less energy and use up far less oxygen. This means you do not fatigue prematurely and have reserves all the way to the end of the match. Secondly, your confidence goes up greatly as the shots break effortlessly and you begin to see the phenomenon of : “It broke just as it was heading for the sweet spot”. You will NOT see those awful “aws—” shots and you’ll start wondering why this used to seem so hard!

            So, the lesson is: Start the pressure on the second stage as you settle into the aiming area and keep increasing it at a rate that allows the shot to break JUST AS YOU ENTER THE STEADIEST PART OF YOUR HOLD. Note we have insisted on using “steadiest” not “steady”. No one is completely steady, nor is it necessary to be! The shot just has to release as the gun enters the area that will result in a 10. Soon, you will realize that your subconscious is sort of ‘steering’ the gun with the trigger pressure into that area. And never forget – YOU (consciously) cannot do this! Just let your subconscious do it and enjoy!
            Don ”

            kevin


            • Kevin,
              This is excellent! What he doesn’t say explicitly, although he does imply it, is to ignore your wobble area. Shooters often abandon the fundamentals because they get caught up in their motion (i.e., wobble-area). I’ve said this before here but didn’t get much of a response. Maybe it’s obvious to others, but it wasn’t to me when I first started to shoot competitively. When we are distracted by our wobble-area, or anything else for that matter, we lose our sight alignment and THAT error really magnifies at the target. Another important detail is when to squeeze the trigger. I find that it helps a great deal to not start concentrating on execution until I’ve taken up as much of the first state as possible. If you try concentrating at the moment your finger touches the trigger, then you’ll exhaust your mind during the shot (at least that happens with me).
              Thanks,
              Victor




  6. I think that these adapters are great for low recoiling guns, but have my reservations. In my experience , layer caking anything on any equipment always leads to issues with performance.


  7. BB and Kevin,

    speaking of changing positions, I have started my own experiment. Using the hardest hitting spring piston rifle I have, the RWS 350, I have selected 4 different pellets and marked the stock on the 350 for three different positions. The first being as far down the forearm as I can reasonably and comfortably reach, the second about mid-way and the third just in front of the trigger guard. Hold is artillery type – either on my palm or for the furthest position, back of the fingers or top of my closed fist. I shoot 5 pellets at a target but 28 feet away (basement range). I’m half way through and will let you know my findings.

    Fred DPRoNJ


  8. BB, I have had success with IMR-3031, H335, and Winchester 748 when reloading the .223/5.56 round.
    Winchester 748 has been the most accreate. This is in both AR’s and a Savage Bolt Action.
    I would also suggest you use RCBS small base dies which re-size the case very close to new diameter.

    Mike


    • Mike,

      Okay, I’ll give 748 a try. I also learned my lesson with small-based dies on a Winchester 100 I have. The dealer told me that Lee dies did away with the need for small-based dies.

      Not true!

      So I’ll pick up an RCBS small-based dies. I have a set of .223 dies already from loading for an H&R single-shot.

      Thanks,

      B.B.


  9. It comes as great relief that BB is in no danger of running out of topics. I’m sure we could help him out if it ever comes to that.

    I think that Weaver mounts would be a great idea to adopt as an industry standard. I’ve broken a resin receiver on a Daisy 880 by over-tightening a scope ring. Fortunately, replacement parts for this gun are inexpensive and easy to get. The 880 is one of the few things in this world that the total sum of its component parts do not exceed the cost of the entire gun.

    I’ve had some problem with springers in the lower price range destroying scopes. My Crosman Storm XT was too much for its Centerpoint scope and scope stop when new. The scope stop was inadequate. It used a pointed probe to engage the scope stop hole. The taper on the point caused the stop to climb up on the receiver, throwing the scope off and marring the receiver. I replaced the scope stop pin with a hardened roll pin. Not real pretty, but effective.

    The scope breaking is something that has happened on several of my springers. What happens is the reticle begins to rotate inside the scope tube. You can compensate for this at first by rotating the tube in the rings, but it soon gets out of hand. I wound up giving the scopes to a friend who has a son who is interested in telescopes. Figured it would work as a spotting scope on the side of the regular telescope.

    If there is a way to correct that, I’d like to know. Maybe put the scope on backwards and shoot for awhile?

    Then I had an experience with my first RS-2. I began shooting this with its .177 barrel. This gun recoiled so badly it literally hurt my face to shoot it. The scope broke, and a black thing went flying past my ear! It was the scope stop, broken clean off. Then, when screws began falling out of it, I took it back to where I bought it and exchanged it for a new one.

    This one was much tamer, but it still broke its scope. I replaced the scopes on both the XT and the RS-2 with Tasco scopes. A 40mm objective Tasco fit fine in the Centerpoint rings on the XT. The RS-2 received a Tasco 50mm scope. I had to use Leupold high-mount rings for that one.

    I put around a thousand shots through both guns, and they’ve calmed down to sweet shooters. They just have to get through that break-in period. I think the Weaver mounts would take care of the scope stop problems.

    I really like the Tasco scopes. They are low-priced but very sturdy. I mounted another 50mm Tasco on my Winchester 600X, which did not come with a scope.

    I also use thread-locker (blue). This is a great help with things like stock screws, but won’t solve a scope stop problem.

    Les


    • If there is a way to correct that, I’d like to know. Maybe put the scope on backwards and shoot for awhile?

      Find a mainspring wound counter to the one already in the gun… {unproven but I have the feeling the reticle rotation is caused not by the rearward/forward recoil, but by the rotary torque of the spring expanding twisting the rifle around its long axis}


  10. Yes, the meaning of the UTG acronym is news to me. I had supposed that it was something too obscure for me to figure out or didn’t mean anything. It seems more appropriate to say Over The Gun for this product line but OTG doesn’t sound as good. 🙂

    Kevin, you’ve thought of plenty of things for your list that I never would have. All I would add is: “Have you sent your gun to Rich Imhoff or Mike Melick to fix?” 🙂

    B.B., if you didn’t own an AR-15 before, how did you accumulate hundreds of rounds of 5.56? That is not the same as .223 as I’m sure you know, and I don’t know what kind of gun besides the AR shoots 5.56. I understand that using 5.56 in a gun chambered for .223 can prematurely wear out the action and cause dangerous overpressures. My own stash of .223 is very limited. I thought about reloading for it with my newfound skills, but the 69gr. bullet which gives the best accuracy for my Savage 10FP requires a compressed powder load for best performance. I’m no fool and will stay away from that. So, I buy small quantities of fearsomely expensive Black Hills match ammo.

    Wulfraed, I’ve heard about the safety built into the trigger of Glock type pistols, and my initial response is that that doesn’t sound like a safety at all. There’s a scene about this in the film Black Hawk Down where Delta Force troopers step into a food line right after a mission. A bald-headed uptight Ranger officer comes up and says, “You’ve got a hot weapon there.” The trooper responds by wiggling his index finger and saying, “Here’s my safety,” which makes the Ranger explode with, “You guys are cowboys.” Upon reflection, I see there is some value in mechanically blocking the cocked hammer (or whatever the striking mechanism) and preventing discharge from a jolt or some other force independent of pulling the trigger. Still, the trigger safety seems to be shaving the margin of safety instead of increasing it.

    My only experience with manual safeties is with the thumb safety on the 1911 although it looks to me that it is the model for most safeties including the one on the SW M&P. This safety seems very natural to me and comes off easily as you raise the weapon into firing position. But genius of a pistol though it is, there is one feature of the 1911 safety that does bother me. I notice that for snap shooting, if you’re not careful of your grip, the thumb safety will divert pressure from the grip safety, so that when you squeeze the trigger, nothing will happen. This still happens to me if I’m not conscious of my grip even after hundreds of repetitions of snap-shooting. It is a serious reliability problem for a combat pistol, and I don’t know if anyone else has experience like this. In fairness to John Browning, I don’t believe this would be a problem with the original military safety that he designed since you could not place your thumb on it. But maybe there was still a problem since I understand that the Texas Rangers who were among the earliest and most enthusiastic adopters of the 1911 in the interwar years would disable the grip safety by tying a strip of rawhide around the butt of the gun. Anyway, I continue to practice with the 1911 and retain my faith in the design, but in fairness, the thumb and grip safeties do seem to constitute a problem. I don’t know if there’s any way around this.

    Matt61


    • Matt,

      Some questions are best left unanswered, I guess.

      A 5.56 round is dimensionally identical to a .223 on the outside. The web of the case is thicker to handle the higher pressure, which is why guns can be chambered for .223 or 5.56mm or, if stated as such, for both.

      Because I am a reloader, I will never load any ammo to 5.56 limits, so everything i shoot will have the pressure of a .223.

      B.B.


      • BB, in addition to what you noted, 5.56 ammo is loaded to a longer overall length that .223 Rem is. A rifle chambered for 5.56 will have a longer throat to account for this. So, if you chamber a 5.56 round in a .223 Rem chamber, the bullet will be into the rifling which will raise the pressures. This can cause pressure issues, I have seen it happen.

        Mike


        • Mike,

          Are you referring to the leade of the rifling? I know about that and will load my cartridges so the bullet isn’t extending into the rifling.

          As for the size of the chamber, itself, I thought it was the same, except for the leade. Are you saying there is another difference?

          B.B.


    • Matt61,

      I get the impression that your suggestion of tuning your springer was tongue in cheek. I think it belongs on the list. Fitting or having someone fit internal parts with tighter tolerances and applying proper lubes in the proper amounts can tame most beasts known as magnum springers. Better yet, have your tuner de-tune the gun. Unfortunately, it seems most airgunners are obesessed with going the other direction, i.e., How can I get more power out of my gun? This was a hard lesson for me. I learned if you want more power to buy a more powerful can than you need and de-tune it.

      To your list of tuners I’d add Paul Watts.

      kevin


    • The 1911 is a single-action design… It is either carried hammer-down & safety off (relying on the short inertial firing pin to prevent discharge if it falls muzzle-down — which is why Colt Series 80 have installed a firing pin block that is lifted as part of the trigger movement) and require a deliberate cocking of the hammer to use OR hammer-cocked & safety on (and has the short light single-action trigger pull) which requires deliberately releasing the safety.

      The Glock (and my Walther P99, various Sig-Sauer, the older S&W series) have heavy double-action triggers. There are many variations — double-action only in which the trigger cocks the striker [they don’t usually have an external hammer, or it is bobbed to remove any surface that could be used to attempt to cock one]; double/single action wherein the trigger can activate the striker is it is not cocked using a heavy double-action pull transitioning to single action once the slide cycles. These pistols often have a decocking lever to release the striker and return them to double-action first shot. Normal carry condition is uncocked/double-action first shot; can be carried with striker cocked [if a double/single action model — double-action only models are obviously always in the uncocked state when the trigger is not being pulled]

      Walther P99 (at least mine, which seems to behave as the misnamed “anti-stress” trigger — mine is first generation, later generations have changed the options): Decocking lever (button?) near rear sight, small trigger firing pin block system. If uncocked — long heavy double-action pull; if cocked — long 2-stage single-action pull (the trigger rest position is the double-action pull length, but most of the motion is taken up catching up to the striker release position — the “anti-stress” mode, using a long pull to reduce nervous jitter discharge from a normal short single-action pull); in rapid fire, one only needs to release the trigger a short distance to reset the single-action pull — removing one’s finger resets to the “anti-stress” pull.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99 (note: I have the first generation frame, but do not have the stated “key” for controlling double/single action modes, and the front sight is plastic [came with four heights]; I’m not sure what all four internal safeties are — I’m sure it does not have a magazine disconnect safety, does have the firing pin block that is released when the trigger is all the way back)

      S&W 4006/459/etc.: Manual safety works by blocking the hammer from the firing pin AND at the same time, decocking the hammer. Double/Single action trigger — can be manually cocked to obtain single-action first shot. Carry options: Uncocked, safety on, double-action first shot; uncocked, safety off, double-action first shot (using safety to decock, then take safety off)… Only an idiot would carry in cocked, safety off, as this mode has a short light single-action trigger.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_4006

      S&W MP40: firing pin block deactivated only when the trigger is all the way back. Thumb safety is factory option as is (ugh) magazine disconnect.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_M%26P

      and then there is the…

      HK P7 squeeze cocker… in which one has to hold the front of the grip in tightly to compress the striker spring; releasing the spring tension (the striker may still be in the “cocked” position, but there is no spring tension to drive it if the trigger is pulled).
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_P7

      In all of these later models, the main concept is that: if the trigger is pulled, the gun should fire (“should” only because the older S&W could be left with a manual safety on; the others don’t have manual safeties and rely on firing pin blocks released by the trigger). Safeties are essentially meant to prevent accidental discharge from drops and impacts, using a heavy double-action first shot to prevent a finger brush from setting off the firearm.


  11. It looks to me as though these adaptors would only work on guns with actual flat-topped rails, and wouldn’t work on guns with grooves machined into the round compression tube. I could be wrong though.


  12. The following message was sent to the wrong address, so I have posted it here.

    Greetings. I’m nobody special, but recently got back into Airguns. I had a simple Daisy lever action and a Crossman M1 Carbine that wasn’t perfect as a kid.

    I’ve bought a new gas break barrel and have been picking up various springers cheap off Craigslist. My go to gun is a Gamo Whisper. Sunday last I bought a well loved 1964 Benjamin 312 for $50. I was really surprised how much I love it although I’m not exactly sure what to use it for. The trigger is so very light you just think about shooting and it does the rest.

    I did order some scope rings but am a little nervous after reading about how easy it is to break the barrel solder with a scope. The accuracy of this rifle well exceeds the iron sights and the targets I generally shoot with the scoped Gamo at ten yards disappear with open sights. I’m tempted to see how much a gunsmith would charge to cut dovetails in the rear assembly if that’s possible. I even found that one guy online that just screwed a scope side mount into the stock.

    But enough talk of that. I was thinking about all that I’ve read and the pictures of them in the box and tried taking the stock off with the single large screw. If it was a short compact rifle before, it was now something of sniper special. Today sitting here at work it’s in the duffel bag next to my desk and nobody is none the wiser; and I rode to work on a motorcycle. I could take it anywhere easy as cake without hassle (well maybe not anywhere, but you get the picture). 30 seconds and a small flat blade screwdriver and it’s ready to play.

    Now if there were a way to put a quick removal scope on this I’d start looking for another one to keep in the mini van full time, might do so anyway. Thinking about trying a piece of felt or thin neoprene between the cocking arm and the body to silence the pump clack. Other than that loud noise I think this would be a great hunting rifle for small game. Do you know how long it’s safe to keep it charged when hunting? I get nervous with springers cocked after a few minutes.

    My current stable:
    Benjamin Trail NP XL 1100 22cal (trying to overcome factory barrel droop)
    Gamo Whisper 1200 177
    Gamo Big Cat 1200 177
    Beeman Sportster 1000 177 with bent barrel (need to straighten that)
    Ruger Air Hawk 1000 177
    Shanghai Airguns Underlever 177 (old model)
    Benjamin 312 22cal

    ps. You know of anywhere to get adjustable Weaver scope rings? The Benjamin Trail naturally shoots 11″ low at ten yards.


    • Nobody Special,

      How long to leave a Benjamin 312 charged? Not long. The seals can’t take it being charged very long. It’s not the same as a precharged pneumatic. Limit yourt time to ten minutes or less. But store the gun with one pump in it always, to keep the valves closed to dirt.

      Your trigger sounds unsafe! Try bumping the rifle while the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction and see if it fires.

      Multi-pumps are wonderful hunting airguns, provided you don’t try to shoot too far. Limit your rasnge to the distance at which you can keep 10 or 10 shots on a quarter.

      I don’t know of any adjustable Weaver rings, but have you turned the rings around and also swapped the front and back ring (if two-piece)? That gives you many adjustment possibilities.

      B.B.


      • Thank you. I was hoping it could stand being charged longer. I’ll have to see how successful I am at silencing the clack it makes when you cock it. I’m sure that would scare away whatever game I was getting ready to shoot. I have been storing it with one pump. I’ll try bumping it and see if it goes off. I think I’m just used to two stage triggers. This one feels rather like the first stage on the Gamos. My old Daisy lever action isn’t shot anymore as it’s so well worn that it will often go off partway through cocking.

        I’ve been shooting at quarter targets twenty on a sheet with the Gamo at ten yards. I’m not very good though. They have a quarter circle and a dot at the center. I score 1 point for outer circle touching or better and 2 points if I touch the inner dot. My best to date offhand standing position with the Gamo is 18 (out of 40). I usually hit the circle and hit the dot sometimes, but find it’s harder to not miss than it is to hit (if that makes sense).

        Using the same target at five yards I got a 20 with the Benji although I started getting tired from the pumping at the end and my shooting suffered.

        Here’s the pdf of the target I’ve been using:
        http://mytargets.com/target22%20circles%20×20.pdf

        Here’s the free target site:
        http://mytargets.com/
        I also printed up some of the grid targets with the half inch circles for variation.

        I was shooting a target style with four targets to a page trying to get groups, but I decided that I needed to practice more on first shots to get ready for hunting.

        I’ll try reversing the rings and parts and see what happens. I’ve tried shimming but the error seems too drastic (I think I was putting four layers of cardstock in the rear mount). If it were a regular dovetail I would have a pair of adjustable rings by now. I think I’ve been avoiding dealing with it and just enjoying the Gamo and other guns. It’s time to get back to it and see if I can’t fix this. I read a good article on finding true scope center and want to try doing that and then getting it to shot close to that point.

        When I first got it (the Benjamin NP) I shot a hundred and thirty rounds down it into some scrap wood to break it in. I went a bit too far though and tweaked my arm. I couldn’t cock it for more than a month without pain. I bought the Whisper to bring my arm back slowly. I had just gotten used to shooting ten rounds down the Benjamin a night (and 30 with the Gamo) when the scope lost it’s center.


    • Nobody Special,

      Don’t get nervous about leaving a springer cocked for more than a few minutes while hunting. B.B. did an extensive test on springer fatigue in an R1 and published the results in his book, The Beeman R1, Supermagnum Air rifle. You can leave your springer cocked while hunting. Better idea…why not barely break the barrel (don’t cock it), insert a pellet, close it up and then cock it when you need to?

      The Benjamin Trail shoots 11″ low at ten yards? That’s some droop. I’d bend the barrel.

      To answer your question about ajustable weaver rings…look at the Burris Signature ZEE rings. These come with Pos Align inserts. Optional are Pos Align inserts that adjust for windage/elevation. Multiple choices but if I remember correctly the maximum adjustment on a combination of these inserts is twenty inches at 100 yards. That translates into two inches of correction at 10 yards. Since you have 11 inches of correction that you need at 10 yards these wouldn’t be a solution for your Benjamin Trail but might help with other guns you shoot at longer ranges.

      kevin


  13. I rather thought that 11″ was pretty extreme. I’m going to find the natural center of the scope and check again. Also I got a cheap gun rest for testing recently. I don’t think the barrel is actually bent or anything. It’s never been fired open (which would make it fire high not low). The nearest Crosman repair place is a hundred miles and I only go out that way on Sundays when I’m sure it’s not open.

    The scope held center for about 300 rounds then lost it.


    • gandalfretlaw,

      You just gave me a clue about why your Benjamin Trail might be shooting 11″ low.

      Check your barrel lockup. Is is loose? Is there a pivot bolt that can be tightened on your Benjamin Trail?

      A loose barrel lockup can result in the barrel opening slightly (bending downwards) when you set it on a gun rest.

      kevin


  14. I can look at that, but I’ve never actually set it on a rest. I bought the rest a few weeks back at walmart for $30 and haven’t even put that particular rifle on it, although I did re-scope all the others. I have put it on a pillow with my hand underneath the stock. I’ll have to take a look when I get home.

    Pillow shooting is easy. I can shoot 3/8″ groups or less at ten yards with my Gamo. 🙂 But then I don’t think I’m likely to find a trash can and a pillow conveniently sitting in the marsh where the bunnies are. I did make up some $3 shooting sticks though.


    • gandalfretlaw,

      Okay. Strike one for me.

      I’d suggest taking the scope off of the Benjamin Trail, tightening your stock screws and shooting at 10 yards with open sights.

      If it groups I’d suspect the scope, mounts or both.

      kevin


  15. I’ll give that a try. What I did to get the 11″ drop (and 3″ to the left) was find the soft endpoints on the scope adjustment and count the turns, then go to one end and count halfway in, then repeat for the other turret. I did this, rested on the pillow and promptly shot the bottom of my pellet trap (this was with a four target paper). Put a nice hole in it.

    I’ll try taking it off and jimmy something up makeshift for sights, but there are no iron sights on that model.

    I built my pellet trap out of a old Harbor Freight aluminum equipment case and clothing cut into 1″ squares. I need to put a fail safe steel plate in the back, but so far it’s been great. If you shoot in the same spot a lot you need to stir up the fabric a bit every so often.


    • gandalfretlaw,

      Two more suggestions/observations and I’ll leave you alone.

      Before you take the scope off, why not make an aimpoint on your target, while attached to and in front of your pellet trap, that is 11″ high of center and 3″ right of the center of your pellet trap. Finding out if the gun can group, with pellets hitting the middle of your pellet trap, will help diagnose if you have a scope/mount problem or barrel droop.

      Adjusting the windage and elevation clicks in your scope back to the mid point is a good idea. After that much adjusting you may have to take 5 or 6 shots (or tap on your turrets) for the reticle to stablize.

      Optically Centering a scope will undoubtedly be your next step LOL!

      kevin


  16. Oh, your not bugging me. That’s what I did. I picked a point on the trap that would let me test the shots. It held a group pretty well (at least for me) as I remember but when I tried to adjust the scope to the shots it lost it. At that point I went online and learned that I had a common story. It was also holding a group pretty well before loosing center. It was shooting about the same as the Gamo. One and a half inch groups or less of ten shots at ten yards standing.

    A little looking says I need special screw drivers to tighten most of the critical break barrel screws. I’ll have to pick some up. The article I just read said to check them every hundred shots. I’ve probably put 2000 rounds down the Gamo since getting it, need to get some oil as well. Probably should get some borebright and clean the barrels also for good measure. I’ve been shooting Crosman Premier Hollow points as their cheap and reasonably decent consistency wise. Prefer the domes, but the store down the road has these for $8/500.


    • If your barrel is droopy enough to cause such a low POI, then you should be able to easily see it by looking along the side of the rifle. Ig the barrel is distinctly pointing down, then you can kiss off using the scope without some help to change the mounting angle of the scope.
      The worst I had was a Storm XT. It was VERY easy that the barrel pointed way low.

      You could also have a bad scope too. Nothing like a multiple problem.

      I have some scopes around here that are nowhere near centered if you count clicks to center them. Two of them are right at the edge of adjustability when they really are centered. As soon as they are adjusted, they go haywire because it puts them out of limits.

      twotalon


  17. Hello All,
    I just got a set of these adapters myself to try on my P1.

    I also have some springer accuracy tips to share:

    1) For breakbarrels: Set proper pivot bolt tension! At a minimum, the barrel must be able to hold itself in place after cocking in the middle of the return stroke if you let go of it. Changes in pivot bolt tension will produce minor variations in final lockup position and corresponding shifts in POI (point of impact).

    2) For breakbarrels: Check the breech seal for cuts, dirt, and lead flakes, and periodically clean the mating face on the receiver. I also look for metal-to-metal contact between the top of the barrel baseblock and the top of the receiver upon lockup. The upper face of the barrel baseblock will start to get shiny from contact but you can also put a thin piece of paper in the gap and see if it is pinched after lockup. A new seal that is too thick won’t let this occur properly.

    3) I finally discovered a trigger technique that shrank groups with all my springers. Use just 2 fingers : index finger on the trigger of course, and thumb on the back of the wrist along the centerline of the stock. You ‘pinch’ the trigger slowly with your 2 fingers only, eliminating any net force on the stock that might pull it one way or another during the firing cycle. Every part of your body that is touching the gun should do so only at points that are along centerlines.

    Regards,

    Feinwerk


  18. Ridgerunner,

    I had to remove one of your comments. You linked to a company that competes with Pyramyd Air. Since Pyramyd Air sells what that company sells, we cannot advertise them on this site.

    Thanks for understanding.

    Edith


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