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2013 SHOT Show: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Umarex did it!
WOW! They did it! Umarex did what airgunners have been asking for years! They’re going to make a P08 BB pistol. Many of you will call this a German Luger; but since Stoeger owns that name, Umarex has chosen to use the official military nomenclature of Pistole Model 08 or just P08.

I was looking at the new Walther LGV when the Umarex staffer mentioned they also had a replica BB pistol in the lineup this year. My heart skipped a beat as I hoped against hope it would turn out to be the Luger, er P08, and, glory be — it was!

P-08 pistol
A fond wish is now reality. The P08 BB pistol will arrive this year!

As far as I’m concerned — this is the big news of the SHOT Show in airguns. However, I did mention that I was standing next to the the new Walther LGV rifles when this happened. They aren’t small potatoes — either!

Walther LGV rifle
The new Walther LGV Competition Ultra is the top of the new LGV rifle line.

The new line of LGVs are all sporting breakbarrels, as contrasted with the vintage LGVs that were breakbarrel target rifles. They have Super Silent technology and a built-in vibration reduction system. Like the vintage LGV, all the new guns have a barrel lock that positively locks the breech, so accuracy should be pretty good.

There’s a lot more to report from Umarex, but I’ll have to return and get it later.

Everybody is talking about what Crosman is doing these days, and a lot of it is new. Let’s start with their highly popular PCP, the Benjamin Marauder. They put it in a synthetic stock and dropped a lot of the bulk and a pound of weight. The result is a slimmer rifle that’s still everything the Marauder has always been. The old rifle will not fit into the new synthetic stock because the trigger group was moved backwards in the new rifle.

Synthetic Marauder
The Marauder drops weight and bulk with synthetics.

The next rifle I, frankly, did not believe until the Crosman rep demonstrated it to me. An M4 carbine, called the MSR77MPC, that’s a Nitro Piston breakbarrel in disguise. It’s a full 1,000 f.p.s. single-shot rifle, yet it looks way cool at the same time.

breakbarrel Nitro Piston M4
This sexy carbine is called the MSR77MPC. I broke the barrel open so you would believe it.

Speaking of M4s, Crosman has upgraded their multi-pump M4-177 with an improved internal pump that now develops 800 f.p.s. with BBs. It shoots both BBs and pellets — the same as the original gun, but as you can see, the styling is quite different.

M4 multi-pump
The MK 177 is an improved multi-pump BB and pellet shooter that hits 800 f.p.s. with BBs.

The other news I’ll give you today comes from Hatsan. They have a whole new line of PCPs, starting with the AT44-10 TACT. Although it looks like a tactical rifle, the features seem to support the hunter quite well. It has a built-in circular clip and storage for two additional clips in the stock. And because it comes from Hatsan, it comes in .177, .22 and .25 calibers.

AR44-10-TACT rifle
The AT44-10 TACT is a powerful PCP with an adjustable stock, circular clips and lots of shots per charge.

There are a host of other beautiful Hatsan rifles I’ll cover in the next report; but for today, I’ll close with something that’s far removed from these powerful airguns. The little Striker Alpha is a youth-sized air rifle that I can’t wait to test.

Hatsan Striker Alpha
Hatsan’s Striker Alpha is a quality youth spring gun. I can’t wait to test it.

67 thoughts on “2013 SHOT Show: Part 1”

  1. Don’t tell me: the next trend in airguns are “tactical air rifles”? Rails all over them to attach unnecessary things, heavyweight due to unnecessary parts, uncomfortable pistol grips and so-so accuracy… and they will sell because they look like real assault rifles… aren’t there enough airsoft guns for this public?

    • My tastes in air rifles is very refined. I will spend big bucks on a gun. In fact some of my very best are hand crafted customs. I have many magnificent guns in my armory, but I’m seeing these new guns with the tactical look and I’m getting excited about them, and I fully plan on buying practically every one of these because they have total sex appeal that a plain old rifle with a wood stock that pretty much all look the same don’t have. I like lasers because they increase my accuracy in dark places like barns where i do rodent control. I also like iron sights and scopes. If I can have them all in a tactical look for when i’m just out having fun and the accuracy doesn’t really count, I don’t see a problem with these guns looking like they do.

  2. Trends come and go. I look for more tactical looking rifles and pistols being developed for the airgun industry when the country bans powder burning AR’s. Personally, I find the tactical pieces exciting, but with the caveat that they be accurate. No gun is worth owning if it can’t hit a ten ring on a regular basis.

    The new Crosman MSR77MPC looks like a large rifle, unlike the multi-pump M4-177 currently on the market. I’m going to watch this one closely. With the nitro piston, it has potential promise.

    The two new Hatsans also look promising. Personally, I do like the tactical look of the AT44-10 TACT. It will be interesting how the Striker Alpha compares with the Bronco.

    It’s good to see that the air gun industry is continuing to develop new products.

    I already have too many air guns (if that’s even possible). But, it looks like I’ll have to make room for more.

    • chasblock,
      I wonder if the MSR77MPC looks like a large rifle because of the camera position. I have seen pics of small fish made to look like big fish by holding them out in front of you (not that I ever did anything like that). Might need to check the specs first.

  3. Talk about a futuristic show… 2103!
    That P08 looks good! Is it an airsoft conversion to steel BB’s?

    I kinda like the Hatsan tactical PCP, remove the rails from the sides and keep the one on the bottom to put a bipod and you have a nice sniper type rifle.

    The MK 177 looks good too put WHY the multi pump again? I still don’t understand why they didn’t based that MK 177 and M4-177 on the 1077 instead of the 760…

    A bunch of interesting new airguns.

    Did Crosman talked about it’s nitro piston pistol? How about that TT-33 they announced last year and is available in certain places but not here? Any news about that one or is gone for good?


      • Pity I’m so late in the day…

        It’s been a year, and the articulated air pump they announced last year is still “coming soon”… You might have been able to weasel an update from them (vs the public moving up from pocket sized critters to box sized: and badgering Crosman)

      • I’m only familiar with 2 airsoft P08’s. The cheaper one is a double-action in which the toggle moves as you pull the trigger (like the P08 cap gun I had as a kid). The second is a pretty realistic blowback in which the entire mechanism replicates the real P08 pretty well. Never saw one with a fixed toggle.

        I agree – no toggle, it’s just an ordinary pistol in a P08 costume.

  4. BB,
    Some interesting stuff. I know Kevin is interested in the Walthers. They do look like very high quality air rifles.

    I like what they did with the Marauder stock, sorta. Took a lot of waste off, but it looks like they are still going for a bench-rest type stock? Is there just a very small market for slim sporters? I don’t think the sporter stocks are as big an impediment to benchrest as benchrest stocks are clunky for offhand use.

    I can live without tactical look, but I’ve gotten a sudden urge to buy AR’s, drink sodas out of huge containers, etc., so maybe I’ll end up with one of those airguns :). One of my roommates in college had an AR15 look-a-like BB gun (maybe it shot pellets also — I have no idea what it was). He never shot it, just put it on the gunrack in the back window of his Scout. Times have changed.

    • BG Farmer,

      Yep, I’m a fan of the old Walthers. For this reason I’ve been watching and reading everything I come across on the new Walther LGV.

      I don’t like the decision by Walther to name their new introduction an LGV since it is a completely different gun than the old Walther LGV. We have enough confusion in the airgun community without intentionally creating more.

      Supposedly the new Walther LGV is made in Germany. I like that. If true it would be the first springer to come from the Walther plant in Germany in decades.

      B.B. linked to a tear down of a new Walther LGV on this blog awhile back. Very rough machining on the internals of that gun.

      In the past Walther’s forte in airguns were 10 meter match guns. The old Walther LGV was a 10 meter match gun. This new Walther LGV is not a 10 meter match gun. The new Walther LGV supposedly generates 16-17fpe in .22 caliber. Don’t know if this medium powered springer can compete in America. The new Walther LGV Competition Ultra (the one in B.B.’s picture today) weighs 9.5 pounds unscoped. Pretty heavy for a field gun. In other words, I’m still trying to figure out what niche this gun fits for me.

      Shocked that Walther would put fiber optic sights on these new introductions. Nice that they also offer metal sights too. The “Super Silent technology and a built-in vibration reduction system” I’ll withhold judgement about until someone I trust tests it and reports about it. Can’t help but be reminded of the new introductions by Hatsan with the SAS (Shock Absorbing System) and highly touted Quattro trigger that were both a bust imho.

      Lastly, putting a barrel latch on the new LGV sporter? is curious. Not sure how this will be received.

      Hopefully B.B. will get one to test.


      • Just another brand sold out? Money does strange things. I don’t see why using LGV was necessary either — Walther should be enough brand by itself, and the people who recognize “LGV” are going to be confused!

        Sounds bad about the rough internals and a little strange if made by Walther in Germany, but maybe it is minor and a good tuner could do something. It certainly looks like a solid airgun, but I agree with you about the weight and size being excessive for a sporter; the breech lock seems like a throwback, too. I’ve had an eye-opening with the fiber-optics — some of them work quite well, probably just because my eyesight is getting worse :)! Even at that, I would pay for nice metal sights at least as an option. I actually think the power level is OK, maybe even a touch high, but probably just fine with the weight.

        • BG Farmer,

          I don’t get the impression that Walther has “sold out” by introducing this new model LGV. Just not quite sure what it is. Heavy sporter is my guess.

          Supposedly the built-in vibration reduction system (tighter fitting parts, additional ports for exhausting air during the firing cycle, etc.) works very well. Bear in mind I’ve only seen videos of the non FAC version being fired in .22 caliber. An FAC version would be interesting and telling. My impression is that this is an already tuned gun out of the box since Walther went to such great lengths for fitting parts. The tear down that B.B. linked to awhile back seems to contradict what other reviewers are saying. I think this is the most important question about this gun though because of price point. If it does feel like an already tuned gun out of the box and has Walther’s infamous accuracy then some airgunners can justify the higher price. If not then I think this one is doomed in the USA.


    • Sounds like your room mate has a crosman M4-177 which is the only one out there that i am aware of that looks like an AR rifle. It fires bb’s and pellets. It’s basically a crosman 760 they dipped in plastic. I’m looking forward to the SCAR look alike and the AR look alike. It reminds me of the rifle I carried for half my time in the army before they took them away and gave us the M-4.

        • Only other m-16 look alike that fired bb’s would be the Crosman AIR 17. It was a single pump gun that looked somewhat like an M-16 and it also fired pellets from a 4 shot clip. Not the most accurate or powerful, but still loosely based on the 760 platform. It was made in the 1980’s but only for a few years since the assault rifle look was just not popular then. There are conspiracy theorists that say the government made Crosman stop making it because it looked like an m-16 but Crosman denies that to this day.

  5. A Benjamin Marauder with a synthetic stock. Nice. I was just looking at Pyramyd’s web page yesterday and wondered if they might bring one out like that.

    On another topic, just because the left wants to band AR’s, AK”s, Magazines, etc. doesn’t mean it is going to happen. Perhaps they don’t remember but the last time they did this sort of thing (The Dems had control of both Houses) they were voted out in the mid term elections.

    The Second Amendment isn’t about duck hunting.


    • Mike , Don’t be so sure a ban won’t be coming . Here in NY as of Tues nite we got a bill that is so draconian even by NY standards that it is mind numbing. You cannot now in NY state ,posess a magazine that holds over 7 rounds of ammunition even in your own home. A standard Ruger 10-22 is a banned weapon and must be sold to an out of state FFL holder or registered as an assualt rifle.Don’t ask me to explain the logic of that or how they would know or what we have to do to comply with the new law. I’ve been on the phone all morning trying to get answers.. Crosman is based in NY so is Remington. With the last election showing the leftist progressive lean to the nation I think that it actually could happen . It happened here because the republican coalition that represents down state(ie= NY city) voted for the bill. Think about how the voting base has changed in the last 8 years in even staunch conservative states in the west. Look who controls the big centers of population in the whole country, and remember NY is over 3/4’s rural ,with a huge hunting and sport shooting tradition and we just got screwed.

      • Robert,
        I thought of you when I heard the news. I’ll look for a place here if you want, but that is just buying time! I really am sorry, friend — our country is almost gone. Your 10/22 and my little Glenfield 60 with the squirrel on the grip are evil assault weapons.

        • And I suppose my .22 TOZ78 bolt action would be too since it has a 10 round mag that comes with it. How is it that Bloomberg is able to hold on to that position election after election. He has to be cheating the process because virtually everyone I’ve talked to hates what he and Giulliani (sp?) have done to the city.


          • / Dave :As long as you don’t load more than 7 in your ten round detactable magazine of your bolt action. Mis-count and the first offense if caught, is now a $200 fine, second is $200 and three months in jail, three and well… The gun issue here is a cultural problem. I’ve lived here most of my life and NY city folks are way different than up state folks.They even talk funny. I went there once, only once, and never again if I can help it. There are people there who are several generations removed from the roots of the rest of the country. Everything is restricted, and anything and everything is expensive and regulated. It’s a different world.

            • I just sewed a bit of blue fabric over one of the stars on my flag. With New York’s gun grab going into full effect I’m not even considering it a state anymore. I’ll reconsider if their gun grab is challenged and overturned.

        • BG : you know a lot of folks say vote with your feet . That might be fine for some who might only have a lot and house in a suburb and no attachment to the land as I do. I’ve spent the last forty years building on what I have, and I’ll be dammed that I’ll go backwards because of them. As you say it is only a matter of time until this touches all of us in some form or another.

      • Yes, I saw what happened in New York. Perhaps it will be challenged in court as it is a clear violation of the Second Amendment. Things can change. In Canada, the universal registration law failed and was finally overturned because few complied with it. Even the police would not enforce it since they didn’t have the manpower or money to do so (Or the desire). New York has opened a can of worms for sure.


        • The law was never effective but isn’t completly gone, a province is still fighting to keep it and handguns still have to be registered and you must be a member of a shooting range to buy and own one and it can still only be shot at that range.

          They amount of money it ended up costing was the major point in the registry downfall. It was supposed to cost a few hundred millions but it ended up costing over a billion… to the very small amount of firearms we have here compared to the US… I don’t you guys can afford a national registry it would be insane to make one in the US (but has never stopped an elected official before).


      • Robert From Arcade,

        This is a very scary piece of legislation:


        If I’m reading this bill correctly:

        Weapons are being re-defined based on grip, mag size and other changes.

        There will be a grace period for disposing of guns that meet the new definitions, but there will be NO GRANDFATHERING IN OF YOUR EXISTING COLLECTION.

        If you get caught with a standard mag (7 rounds) that can be converted to a hi-cap mag (over 7 rounds) your first offense is $200. Second is $200 and 3 months in prison.

        If you get caught with a hi-cap mag (over 7 rounds) first offense is $200 and 6 months in prison. Filling a hi-cap mag with only 7 rounds isn’t a legal option.

        If you are deemed a nutter by the Community Services Director (?) the cops will come and confiscate your guns immediately

        Ammo sales will be tracked and you will have to give all your contact info to the store

        If you have hardware that you THOUGHT was legal, but then are told my authorities that it is NOT legal, you have 30 days to turn it in and avoid any prosecution.



        • Kevin ,This is VERY bad and those are the highlights, and yes gov (cumo, 2016 candidate for POTUS) signed it into law yesterday afternoon. We also used to have lifetime pistol permit licenses in the upstate rural counties, now they will be good for only five years. Maybe? Don’t know how that will pan out Called this morning and they still don’t know how they are going to renew permits or what the procedure will be? Still don’t know what the reference in the new law to the “Community Service Director ” is either .Never in my life have I ever heard of a title like that. Central Scrutinizer?

        • That is messed up. I only hope that they take it too the supreme court and it gets dumped as unconstitutional. And I hope that Huckster isn’t dumb enough to try the same thing.


          • /Dave,

            In the light of the recent Supreme Court decision between D.C. vs. Heller the majority of the new NY law is constitutional imho. Limiting magazines to 7 rounds and the definition of what constitutes and assault weapon are unconstitutional imho. All we have to do is look at the weapons the guys carry that serve and protect the public (police) to see a set and common standard. I’m not an attorney and don’t play one on TV though.


            • Kevin,

              I’m not an attorney either, but it seems to me that if one part of the law is unconstitutional, then the whole thing would need to be rewritten. Hopefully with something that makes sense. I don’t mind background and sanity checks, but sweeping punishment of law abiding citizens is another thing. They’re actually creating a whole new class of criminal!

              By the way, I’ll let the misspelling of the ‘pooper’s name stand. It fits…


              • /Dave,

                I’m deeply concerned about the direction our elected representatives are taking towards further gun control too.

                You can’t rewrite the Constitution. You can amend it. This is how we came to have the second amendment that gun supporters point to first in these kinds of debates that have been going on for decades. Another one of the ways it gets amended is by Supreme Court rulings. The interpretation of the second amendment has been before the Supreme Court many times and they have made it clear that individual gun ownership in this country has limitations. Some view this as an erosion of rights but it’s the law of our land to allow our supreme lawmakers interpret our supreme laws. Sets better with me than allowing the President or any other individual to interpret and determine our legal rights.


      • If i lived in New York i’d have just become Public Enemy #1. There’s no way I’m going to give up my 30 round magazines, my 78 round drums and no way am I willing to register my guns as assault weapons so the government has an easier time snatching them later. I’ll bury my guns in a vault tube before I let the government snatch them. As it is I keep all my guns in an off site locked building well out of sight of the government. First because they will be harder to snatch if they try. Second because they are closer to where I hunt, target shoot, and do pest control. I keep exactly 1 very nasty AMD65 at home for home defense which came in handy a few weeks ago when I had a street punk break into my place. I had him against a closet door peeing his pants as I became a nightmare he will be seeing at night for a very long time. His “9 millah meetah” was a bb gun compared to what he was facing. As far as the magazine capacity ban now being contemplated, They really don’t want to do that. I have frangible incendiaries in my 10 round magazine. They ignite and produce a 5000 degrees fire when they impact.

      • You cannot now in NY state ,posess a magazine that holds over 7 rounds

        Just wait for the outrage when they discover that (outside of NYC) people are buying highly concealable pocket pistols because the hard to conceal “duty guns” have been banned.

  6. If you check on either the TAG or Yellow forums, you will see I came up with the idea of a extended AF frame months ago and built it. I took a Talon and grafted the tube of a tired Conodor onto it.

    I use a 17 inch dechoked LW barrel to get between 100 and 125 FPE with the Lyuman 257420 cast bullet and Dyotat valve.

    It is a great concept and I wish AF all the best with it, it is really a great platform.

  7. Looks like there are a ton of really awesome guns coming out and of course i really want a good many of them! That new Hatsan PCP rifle is definitely going to find a home in my collection. Looks like Crosman is stepping up it’s tactical game too. I’m lusting after those as well. A break barrel AR look alike has been on my fantasy gotta have one list since the AIR 17 came out in the 1980’s. And that new pumper of theirs is definitely going to be on my wall! I can live without the Marauder though. I have a condor. If you got one of those a Marauder is going to pretty much play second fiddle to your airforce guns.

  8. B.B.,

    Love the lighter Marauder! Now if the can only do this AND bring the price down (which should be the case), then Crosman will really have a big winner.



  9. B.B.,

    Is anyone coming out with an affordable (under $500) precision (truly) class air-pistol (i.e., something other than the IZH 46M)? Don’t care if it’s PCP or pneumatic.


      • B.B.,

        My thoughts are along the lines of what Crosman did with the Challenger. I’ve read several articles praising Crosman for making serious competitive marksmanship accessible on a much broader scale. I would have loved to have competed in three-position air-rifle while in high school, or even junior high. Now you hear of national records being set with the Challenger by junior shooters.

        Air-pistol has always been less available for juniors than other forms of precision competition. When I was a junior some clubs frowned upon the idea of kids with pistols (of any kind). I was lucky in that one of my team mates was the best in the country, having won the Nationals at Rogers Arkansas a couple times. There weren’t many good air-pistol shooters in California, so we had to travel to the big tournaments like the Nationals and the US Internationals for good competition. But US junior air-pistol shooters couldn’t compare those of other places, like Europe.

        I would love to see more juniors picking up air-pistol for competition. It’s a great sport!


        • Even if Crosman produced this (relatively) cheap competition pistol, you’ll encounter some legal problems…

          For example — air pistols with rifled barrels or >.177 caliber need a permit to purchase in Michigan… That piece of paperwork requires one to be 21 years old. Basically, only a smoothbore BB pistol can be obtained without government permission.

          Likely the laws about handguns in the possession of minors would also be applied, so even if you buy one as a gift — the kid can’t go to practice unless you are there to take it out of the locked transport case and hand it to them on the firing line.

          • Wulfraed,

            I don’t know what states allow what. In our case, all air-pistols were kept in a range safe, and transported by a coach. Maybe age was even an issue where I lived. I don’t know. All I know is that I was able to practice and compete at will, so I never felt constrained. Maybe this is why air-pistol has never taken off here in the states. That would be a shame.


  10. The new P08 is a disappointment for me. My late father had a Luger, and, to me, the single most defining feature of the gun was the toggle mechanism. Any CO2 version that did not feature a blowback-operated toggle would not be a Luger,or a P08. This would be like selling a Broomhandle Mauser without a broomhandle!

    I would be more than willing to trade some velocity in exchange for a working toggle.

    As to the Executive Orders, I believe we are undergoing a Constitutional crises that amounts to a coup attempt by the President to eliminate the influence of the Congress to make public policy and law. I would think members of Congress of both parties should be appalled that their Constitutional authority has been undercut.

    Executive Orders can be challenged in Federal Court. It will take, at a minimum, months for these cases to begin working their way toward the Supreme Court. A more immediate problem for the President will be implementation of these illegal orders. Like many of us, the people who would be tasked with implementing these policies take an oath to defend the Constitution. County Sheriffs are the chief law enforcement officers in their counties. He is going to get an incredible amount of resistance to this, likely to involve violence. Like the Canadians, we may find these ad hoc “laws” to be moot because they will be unenforceable.


    • Les,

      Laws, good or bad, generally enforceable or not, once in the books can always be applied out of convenience. Anyone, or any group, can conveniently be labelled subversive, terrorist, or whatever. Doesn’t matter if the individual, or group, are left, right, or whatever. Ultimately, “justice” is a function of money, or whatever those in power decide. Power comes in many forms, and not just government. Corporations often times (probably most of the time) pull the strings of government.

      As they say, “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”. But power tends to have an insatiable appetite, usually to the point of becoming destructive, like a cancer. It becomes self-serving, and so resorts to “justification” instead of truth. That’s where propaganda comes in.

      My point is that with each new law, and as this nation becomes more divided, we become more susceptible forces whose interest are becoming less and less about America, a nation of people. The more corrosive our political dialogue, the weaker we become as a nation. If we are guided by emotion, then we are divided. If we are guided by reason, then we are united. Until Americans come together and reason with each other, extreme dialogue and measures will be all that we see and hear. The net result will be policies that can bite us in the future.


      • Exactly. And like drug addicts who will do anything for their next fix, these power addicts in office will stop at nothing to retain and expand their power. We’re dangerously close to the point where all pretenses of democracy are dropped.


          • Victor,

            You hit the magic button.

            Wall Street/Bankers/MONEY.

            Lehmans bankruptcy is the largest in world history. 26,000 lost jobs. According to the bankruptcy equivalent of a trustee in the Lehman fiasco they borrowed $44.00 for each $1.00 of assets. Prescription for disaster? Yes, in most households. Their accountants, Ernst & Young, testified that $50 billion, BILLION, in assets were moved off the premises per REPO 105 immediately before their downfall.

            Citigroup gets a 45 BILLION dollar bailout for their involvement in this financial nuclear fiasco PLUS $300 Billion in guarantee’s? Where is the outrage? Why isn’t anyone with half a brain talking about this?


            • Kevin,

              At one company I worked at our CFO always made sure that everyone knew that he came from Arthur Anderson. He was busted for funneling company money towards a custom million dollar home that he was having built for himself. Industry culture trickled down to corporate culture, and then further down to the individual level. There was no outrage because the company couldn’t pay its bills and folded before a postmortem investigation took place.

              Sure, don’t trust government. But don’t assume that corporations, and in some cases whole industries, are any more trustworthy. Again, we’re talking about power and corruption.


    • Kevin,

      While your point is well taken, Henry Ford was ignorant. The American Indian never asked for what they got. I’ve traveled all over this country, only to find story after story with a consistent theme. Whether it be Catalina Island, California, Nevada, Arizona, Idaho, etc., Native Americans were forced from good land where they prospered and lived long and healthy lives by their own hand (hard work, ingenuity, values, spirituality, etc.). In fact, in some cases historians have even been able to document a complete decline in their health and stature. Where they were once tall and strong, within decades they became shorter and weak. Even worse than the need for government welfare, the land that they were moved to was often times barren, reducing the possibilities for ingenuity, and effectively locking them into this dependency. Yet even worse was having children forced from their family and forced to look upon their own culture and language as shameful. This usually included physical abuse. And now so many look upon Native Americans with contempt, as if they were inherently inferior. If Henry Ford had to walk in their shoes, we would not recognize him as the ingenuous man that we know him for.


      • Kevin,

        I hope it’s obvious that this was no attack against you. I really have visited many sights where local history was captured with the same consistent theme. Differences have been in the extent in which euphemism were used to explain why Native Americans eventually left (e.g., forced, evicted, displaced, relocated, offered, allowed, etc.). I’m far from being an expert on this, but most of us know of other, far worse, history like the Trail of Tears.


      • Victor,

        Seems that you, me and Henry Ford agree when it comes to the historical treatment of the American Indian by the US governement.

        Your citing of historians documenting a decline in health and stature seems to underscore our collective belief.

        I’m missing the link for you to declare that “Henry Ford was ignorant”.

        Please fill in this blank for me since for the life of me I can’t make a connection.



        • Kevin,

          The Henry Ford quote included words “by letting” and “take care of”. The Native Americans did not “let” anything happen to them, and what happened to them was little different from forced internment, without adequate resources for self-sufficiency (horrible land). They were conquered.

          Maybe I’m being nit-picky here, but it seemed to me (not anymore) that the quote mis-characterized actual history. What Ford said is generally true, but the Native American were not “taken care of”.

          I guess the issue is not what he meant, but rather my literal interpretation of what he said. I wasn’t familiar with this quote, and I didn’t know his context. But I’ve read and heard similar sounding statements that imply an entirely different (more condemning) meaning regarding Blacks, Native Americans, and other groups.

          The exact same thing applies to spoiled children of the wealthy, or anyone who feels that they should be entitled. Thanks for clearing this up! 🙂


  11. BB,In regards to the last blog;will the bounty hunter stock still fit on the new condor ss? Also,It seems the only way I can get a quieter rifle in .357 cal.is if I buy a Crosman or Evanix electronics controlled rifle.What are the possibilities of getting Air force to move up to .357 cal.in the new condor ss line? It could be more affordable,quiet,no batteries to go dead,and work in all kinds of weather.Do you think the platform provides enough power?-Tin Can Man-

    • TCM,

      Why is AirForce the only one who can make quieter big bores? They don’t have a rifle for you at this time, but there are other guns to consider.

      I suspect the big issue is price, and it certainly is for me, so both the Daystate and FX big bore that cost thousands are probably not what you want.

      Here is a question. Why do you want a quiet big bore airgun? Just asking — not a challenge. It’s just that these guns are made to do big jobs — to to shoot in the back yard, so I was wondering.


  12. BB,I want the rifle to be fairly quiet because my property is only 150ft.wide and the neighbors are close enough that I don’t want to alarm them.The property is nearly a third of a mile of woods in length.I want to shoot the .357 as far as possible and hit tin can targets (with proper backstops,of coarse).I don’t need to kill anything,but those bullets will cary well.The Sam Yang Recluse might work for me if it is accurate enough,but it is reported to be very noisy.Money is an issue and the only guns I find,that I might be able to afford have electronics I don’t really want.LDC’s and the fed.application fee would bring the Recluse way up in cost overall;if it can even take threading.If Airforce were to include the .357 in their offerings I would have part of a system and a price break-both big advantages.Later on I could add to the system.Do I have any other good options?-Tin Can Man-

    • TCM,

      It appears to me that you have thought this out pretty well. One thing that might work is a stack of tires turned on its side and strapped together. They use that at firearms ranges for noise abatement.The gun is fired inside the tires and the sound is contained pretty well. About 6 feet of tires will work, and more is better.

      You are really not considering the range safety of your neighbors who could be downrange when you are shooting. 75 feet of clearance on each side is not enough. You really need either 1,000 feet on a side or a tall thick berm.


      • BB,That tire idea is a good option.I could easily build a wood rack to hang tires on.I would be able to change the aim to a large degree.People would give me the tires to avoid disposal fees.-As for downrange safety;I didn’t realize that much room was needed.I guess if I did get a rifle with that kind of power,I’d have to shoot it somewhere else.-BB thank you for making the time and effort for me.-Tin Can Man-

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