Buying and selling airguns on the internet: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

This report covers:

• The shyster dealers
• Weasel wording
• Bad photos
• How to spot an honest dealer
• Honest vs. dishonest: What’s the verdict?

The shyster dealers
Today, let’s start out talking about those internet dealers who are less than honest. I’m not talking about the scammers who are certainly out there. They’re the people with nothing at all to sell. All they want is for you to send them money, and you’ll never hear from them again.

I’m talking about the dealers who do anything to mislead you about the real airguns they’re selling. They have actual guns to sell, but they describe them in dishonest ways. I’ve dealt with a few and discovered a great many others, so this should be interesting. Remember, I’m primarily talking about buying guns on the Gun Broker website, though this does apply to most websites where selling takes place.

Let’s begin with a downright lie. A fellow listed a beat-up old Remington cap-and-ball revolver for sale. The finish was gone and he said the lettering was worn off the top of the barrel — which is where Remington marked their cap-and-ball revolvers. It did say .44 cal. on the left side of the barrel in sharp letters, and the serial number was under the barrel where it is supposed to be. Too bad about the lost lettering on top!

Folks, that wasn’t a real Remington revolver. It was an Italian replica that was made in the 1960s, before the manufacturers worried about fakes. This company didn’t letter the tops of their guns — thinking that would be a big tipoff that they weren’t real. Well, the fakers got hold of these guns and weathered them to look like they’ve seen 140 years of hard use. No wonder the letters wore off — the hustlers say (and the suckers believe)!

I know this because I own two such revolvers myself. One, I bought knowing it was a fake, and the other was slipped to me in a deal where I got suckered. I kept both guns and often display them at gun shows, with full disclosure as to their counterfeit nature. Believe it or not, I’ve had several offers to buy one or both these guns, but I won’t sell them because I know how they can be used.

Weasel wording
I think this is the biggest clue that a dealer is dishonest. It’s even bigger than the dark pictures that are out of focus, though it usually accompanies them. The seller describes what he’s selling in such a way that you are mislead into thinking that it’s something it’s not. Here’s how it works. The condition of guns is critical to their value, and the NRA has published guidelines describing each condition. A gun that’s in good condition, for example, is in pretty bad shape as far as a collector is concerned. Good guns can have parts replaced and little or no original finish. Very good guns are quite a bit better than good guns, and excellent is the lowest condition most collectors want, unless the gun in question is very rare.

So, a dealer lists a gun as excellent in the title, causing many people to look at his listing. Then, as you read the listing, you see that he describes his gun as “excellent functioning condition.” That’s weasel wording at its best! A gun either functions or it doesn’t — excellent is not a part of that.

And these dealers go on to print many more half-truths to entice the gullible. One I like is the phrase “… great condition for its age,” or “… a fine gun, considering it is 84 years old.” Folks, you DON’T consider anything when you buy a gun. It is what it is — period. The seller should describe the condition — not temporize on why it’s so good, considering it’s hard life. If I reworded the phrases just a little you would see clearly how absurd they are — “.. this is a great car, considering it was under saltwater for a week.”

Another shyster trick is to give false hope in the description. “Rifling is faint, but should clean up better.” If it would clean up better, don’t you think the dealer would do that to sell the gun for more money?

And here’s my favorite. It’s the standard disclaimer of an airgun dealer on Gun Broker. In the descriptions there is this statement:

NONE of the guns have been tested for firing condition, so firing condition is assumed unknown, unless stated otherwise. I will NOT GUARANTEE the seals on vintage airguns, unless it has recently been resealed, even if the auction states that the gun was holding air (normally overnight), due to the o-rings being fragile and known to be failing due to age.

While this statement is not dishonest in any way, I think it’s a big cop-out. This dealer is saying that if you buy it, you own it, because none of his airguns have to work. He’s told you up front that they may not work, so now all responsibility is off him and onto you. Maybe this is a personal quirk of mine, but I won’t do business with someone who advertises this way.

And while we’re on the subject, what about the dealer who says that all his deals are final? No returns for any reasons unless the item you received was not the one listed online. I won’t even look at the photos of these dealers, because there’s no way I’m doing business with them.

Bad photos
Speaking of photos, let’s look at them for a minute. In this day of digital cameras in phones, there’s no excuse for bad photos. I’m not expecting everyone to have professional photographic skills, but at least they should know not to run a black picture, or one that’s so out of focus that the detail is lost. Don’t forget — they’re the ones who select the photos to run with their listing. Would you drive a car you were trying to sell through a mudbath before showing it?

Usually, the guns these dealers have for sale are either pictured from faraway, so no details can be seen, or they have dark photos, some of which are out of focus.

Using an out-of-focus photo in a listing to sell a gun is equivalent to selling a motorcycle with a pool of oil underneath it. It’s so wrong that I don’t want to have anything to do with someone who would do it.

And the worst of these comes when the person says in their description, “… I will let the photos speak for themselves.” And then he doesn’t picture the bore! I buy vintage firearms from time to time, and the No. 1 problem with all of them is the bore. The ammunition these vintage guns shot back in their day was highly corrosive, and most of their bores were ruined. I don’t mind paying more for a vintage gun that has a nice bore, but what I don’t want to do is buy a nice-looking gun whose bore is gone. Maybe some people want to reline the bore of a rifle — but not me.

I had some insight into what’s going on a few weeks ago when I looked at all of one dealer’s listings. He showed the bores of a couple of guns he was selling and disregarded the bores of all the others. This was a guy who had the “let the pictures speak for themselves” statement in his description, too. Well, that was enough said. You’re showing me only the ones you want me to see, so I know that everything you don’t show is something you want to hide. This guy even ran several of the same photos multiple times in his listing — just so there were more pictures to look at!

How to spot an honest dealer
We’ve talked about how the dishonest dealers reveal themselves in their wording. What does a honest dealer do? Well, one thing that makes the dealer seem honest to me is when he uses graphics (arrows and circles) in his pictures to point out the flaws on his guns. Maybe he even includes words in the description that draw your attention to certain photos where those flaws are pointed out. For example, “Picture 19 shows the rust on the triggerguard. I couldn’t get the light to cooperate, but the rust is just on the surface. There are no deep pits.”

Another giveaway to an honest dealer is the guy who has lots of positive feedback ratings. And when you read the one negative comment he’s received in the past 6 months, the guy says, “This dealer refused to ship me the firearm, even though we live in the same state, because I couldn’t give him a street address.” So the one bad report was because the dealer was following the law. That’s not a bad dealer in my book.

Honest vs. dishonest: What’s the verdict?
I’m not writing this series to convince anyone to do business over the internet. If you don’t feel comfortable doing that, you should stay away. But for those who are willing to buy and sell this way, here’s my take on the safety of the business scene. I find most dealers are scrupulously honest. They have to be; because one misstep, and people start talking. The same internet that affords anonymity to those wanting to misbehave is also a billboard on which everyone can post the success of their transactions. Use a little common sense, and you can transact your commerce this way as easily as face to face.

132 thoughts on “Buying and selling airguns on the internet: Part 2

  1. You hit one of my biggest pet peeves on the head (to mix metaphors). I was hoping you would.

    I hate it when a DEALER claims he hasn’t tested a gun. Really? I figure either he was afraid to shoot it–knowing it was ready to blow up on him, or more likely he did shoot it a few times and doesn’t want to reveal the results! Oh, that makes me mad for them even to say it. Can you imagine a car dealer saying he never started any of the cars in his lot because he was too busy? I mean, how do you tell a lie like that?


  2. The only way for me to say this is I am skeptical person.

    I know there are good deals there on gun broker. But. Yep that word but. I know a lot of people buy there and other places and have good results and get lucky as I hear people say.

    And here is my skeptical self again. But I would rather buy something new that has not been touched or maybe even experimented with.

    I would rather buy a new product from a company that has a return policy. I just feel like that way I have a honest option available to me.

    At least that way I know my money spent will be a worth while investment. It don’t take long these days to go broke making bad decisions and end up with junk or nothing that works at all. Sorry just my preference. Just a gamble I don’t want to take.


    • I’m with Gunfun1 on this one. Many older airguns are no longer commercially available and simply have to be bought on the used market–I’ve done a lot of eBaying for certain out of production, nongun collectibles myself. But if you’re looking for a modern gun, buy new, buy quality, and take care of it. This has worked very well for me in many areas, including cars: I recently traded in two vehicles, both bought new. One was traded in at 21 years old, the other 19, with me as the original owner. I didn’t get much at trade-in, but both served me well and I haven’t had car payments for 15 years. I know there are certainly used gun bargains to be had, but I would rather know for sure what I’m buying is pristine. Too many variables for this here scientist, otherwise!


  3. Being a photo guy and having owned and managed a (what I used to call) a “real” camera store for some years, you’ll be interested to know the lingo, tactics, and behavior you describe for the “special” dealers is pretty much identical, whether guns or cameras, or pretty near anything else.

    With only one difference…that you are far, far too kind in your assessment.

    —My personal weasel phrase begins with, “I don’t know much about [fill in the blank with potential object of desire here] but … That’s a code phrase meaning, “it’s broke, it don’t work, I warned you, you’re my legal prey if you so much as finish reading this ad.”
    .
    —pay geat attention and read the feedback, particularly the negative ones. While it’s true there are such things as bogus complaints, NOBODY collects a less than 95% positive feedback without good reason. Less than 100%, read ALL the negative feedback, less than 95%, go someplace else, no matter what it says.

    —the absolute most important thing I’ll ever tell anyone, after a lifetime in sales, is this.
    (Write it down if you need to, keep a copy in your wallet if necessary.)

    There is no such thing as a “ONCE IN A LIFETIME OFFER!”

    There are and will be amazing objects of lust and desire in your life…you already know what…And Bless you, likely who that may be. But trust me, there is another one right around the corner that is as good or better than your current focus.

    (well, okay, B. B. , Edith is the obvious exception, as is my Louise.)

    The world is full of the amazing, unfortunately, also full of those far better than us at taking advantage.

    Proceed with caution.


    • David,

      You have been there, too! I was an amateur camera collector for awhile and I know what a condition 10 camera is, but how bad or good is an 8? And as I recall, cameras can be “minty” just like guns!

      You are so right about the dealer who says, “I don’t know much…” What he knows is how to spot a sucker.

      In my experience and once in a lifetime offer comes akong every few months.

      Good tips!

      B.B.


      • Oh, I’d forgotten “minty,” as a clasical example of Orwell’s “doublespeak” as ever there was. Likely better defined as “nonspeak,” but handy enough as an easy identifier of ‘those less than honorable and to be avoided.’

        I see here potential for a micro-thesaurus on the true meanings of misleading Ebay/GunBroker/Automobilia/etc terminology here.

        (Just send $19.95, plus $44.99 shipping and handling for my revealing “Secrets of
        EBay Negotiations” CD. Addresses in Hong Kong, Nigeria, and the former CCCP to follow.)


  4. My only used airgun purchasing experiences online were both on the Canadian Airgun Forum. In both cases they were items no longer available new and with no real current production equivalents. Both were private individuals who don’t buy and sell airguns routinely and both deals worked out great. I took a quick peek at the Gun Broker site and at least I didn’t find anyone doing the things that really tick me off on Craigslist: scattergun keywords that are not at all relevant to the item being sold, dealers posing as private sellers and people using pictures taken off the internet rather than pictures they took themselves of the actual item for sale.


  5. B.B.,

    I just read the Whiscombe/Harmonics series that David H. recommended yesterday. Very interesting to say the least.

    Question,…would you ever expect to see the opposing pistons and harmonic tuning barrel weights to show up in the air gun world in the future? Maybe patents preventing such?

    I would imagine that Whiscombe 80 must be one of your most prized guns. So unique, in so many ways. Plus, it’s not made any more.

    Hope your having fun,…it must be really hard! 😉


    • Thanks for your advice about loosing the scope mount screws! I went home right away and acted on it. What I had was not that far off. But the tip about using the short handle of the Allen wrench is a good reference point, and I feel much more reassured. One of my delights is looking at the beautiful sharp image through my Leapers scope, and I don’t want to lose that. Thanks.

      Matt61


  6. I guess if you want to do a lot of dealing (honestly) , then you should invest in a good camera and a bore scope that you can take pictures through.
    I found out a long time ago that a camera that is too basic just won’t do much for anything other than quick shots of landscape.

    twotalon


  7. BB,

    You covered several things that bug me about online gun and airgun listings.

    Regarding the photos, sometimes there is not a single photo that shows the entire gun; why? Hiding an upward bent barrel? I have also seen listings use what are obviously pictures from a catalog, not the actual item offered; I assume they are scammers.

    Another weasel phrase is “cocks and shoots”, even though the piston is missing its leather seal and other parts are missing that render the airgun useless (happened to me once.)

    Paul in Liberty County


    • Paul,

      I wondered about this, too. Then I remembered my early days with film cameras. They don’t show whole guns because they can’t frame them! They feel they have to be close enough to show some detail, and when they do that the gun is too long for the frame.

      They rationalize that the viewers are knitting the images together in their minds.

      Give them time and they will figure out that you need a whole shot, followed by detail shots.

      B.B.


  8. Very good article BB. I never deal with anyone that does not have perfect or near perfect feedback. It needs to be at least 99%. Anyone can run into a customer that you just can’t make happy but there won’t be many. If I am dealing with someone, I note that they can check my Ebay account feedback. It’s 100%. My best Internet purchase of a airgun was a Crosman 160 which was near new other than needing a reseal. But, I was told that going in and the price reflected that fact. I still have it and it shoots great!

    Mike


  9. B.B.

    Love the SHOT Show coverage hope to see some more.

    Like Gunfun1 I am really not interested in buying used but I probably need to think about selling some of my gear to make room as I upgrade my collection. If you do a part 3 maybe you could focus on where and how to best sell airguns on line.

    David

    David



  10. BB,

    I just want to say this is a timely article for me. I had been lusting after a discontinued model when I spotted an ad for one two days ago. Unfortunately the photo was blurred. To make it worse the gun was all black. Despite all the warning signs I just had to take a look. Unfortunately my fears were realized and you were right. Although the bore looked good the bolt was very loose and the reason it was very black was that the seller had painted it with a thick coat of flat black spray paint to hide the pitting. So it was easy for me to remove all thought of buying that gun right then and there.



      • I had to examine it well more for the seller than for myself. Seeing the thick coat if paint told me not to buy it right then and there. The seller though so eager to sell I did not have the heart to simply tell him no sale immediately. He honestly thought that it was worth the price he was asking and that the act of painting the gun enhanced its price. Just have to wait for a better one.



  11. I don’t deal on-line that much, but I did have an issue with a seller not too long ago, that was beginng to be difficult to resolve. One of those “You cashed my Money Order, where’s my thing?” deals.

    The seller’s tactic in that case was, “I’ll ignore you, not respond, and after awhile, you’ll go away…”

    To be fair, I had ignored one of my most basic “Rules of Internet Acquistion, ” namely, ‘never ignore too much negative feedback.’ So I’ll admit to some slackitude on my part. (It was less than 90%)

    To make a not too longish tale shorter, my return tactic in this case was to make equal use of the internet, specifically, Google Maps and/or Google Earth, use ‘Street View’ of his home address (“send money-order here”) and then forward the images of his house (with the twin SUV’s in the driveway and the neighbor kids staring at the goofy-doofy googlemobile) for his contemplation. No further comment added to the missive.

    The response was remarably swift. I had the item in hand, ‘later-today-sooper-dooper express’ almost before I could take my early afternoon nap. (As opposed to either my ‘mid-afternoon nap’ or my ‘late afternoon nap.’ I learned this nap business from the terriers.)
    Point being, of course, “they” know how to work the system, but that does’t mean you can’t do a bit of “book-learning” and work it right back at them.
    Go forth, do battle.



    • David,

      Good for you!

      When that seller made you send him money, he committed a federal offense if the money was sent by USPS. You can ask the Post Office to put a Postal Inspector on the case and they have the power to make arrests.

      But you flushed him and that was probably better.

      B.B.


  12. Tom,

    I respect a seller who writes, “Untested for holding CO2, so assume it will need new seals.” That seller is being honest in my book.

    But THIS drives me crazy, when a seller who has a dozen CO2 airguns in different auctions, some of which are specifically described as, “Been holding CO2 for a month and shoots very hard.” OK, so far, so good. But in another auction he writes of another airgun, “Untested for holding CO2.” Who tests some airguns but doesn’t test others? Of COURSE he knows the second gun won’t hold — that’s why he didn’t test it (or won’t admit that he did test it, and it leaked)!

    I never bid on an auction without first looking at not just a seller’s feedback, but also his other auctions. A seller who clearly handles a lot of airguns shouldn’t be playing dumb in the description of some (but not all) of his auctions. One auction describes a Blue Streak as, “One of the more desirable ones: rocker safety, Racine Wisconsin, pre-Benjamin era.” In another he writes, “Don’t really know much about airguns . . . ” Yeah, RIGHT.

    Michael


  13. Sorry to be off subject but I am considering going to the Northern California Airgun Show this March. I have never been to one and it will involve a fair amount of expense. Can anyone give me some suggestions or tell me a little about the show or their experience? Thanks

    Cliff


  14. My pet peeve with GunBroker and other auction sites is “Reserve Not Met”. The item will have an opening bid of 99 cents and you have no idea how much they want. You may be the only one bidding on it, but you will never get it.


    • Agreed. I’ve done a ton of eBaying as both buyer and seller and the starting bid should be the minimum the seller wants in order to part with said item, no shenanigans.



      • You mean something like a seller finding out how much something is actually worth?
        Or setting the reserve high, so he can decide if he ACTUALLY wants to sell to the highest bidder?
        Or having an offer on something to show someone who can lay hands on it?

        I do like reserve auctions, just because I never feel bad about bidding low on something, and I have been surprised how often someone will send me a message after the auction in order to make an additional (higher) offer “since I bid in good faith” or “because there was an accidental extra zero in the reserve amount, but you can’t change it”.

        There are valid reasons for having a reserve, but usually they are better covered by setting a minimum bid.

        The thing I hate most at an auction is when there is an additional 10 or 20 % “privilege of using our services” fee. If you want more money, make it a straightforward deal, up front. It’s pretty simple.

        I really appreciate these particular “buying online” blogs, they are good to help remind us folks who rarely purchase this way WHY we rarely purchase this way. 😉


        • More often than not the reason for the reserve is they do not have to pay for the ad unless it sells. Usually if I am really interested, I will contact them to ask what they have it reserved at. If I feel it is too high, I will give them contact information for if it does not sell and tell them I will make an offer.

          Usually they think it is way more than it is really worth. Sometimes they get it. There is a Beeman R1 on Gunbroker right now where the bidding is over $950 right now.


  15. One that is common here in Germany is: “Connoisseurs know what’s on sale here.”

    Right, so either you know already or you have a useless boast that is somehow supposed to impress you. I wonder if these people realize how stupid they sound. Add multiple exclamation points, all caps and poor grammar for that extra flavour of “uneducated and proud to show it”.

    A very similar thing is misguided pseudo-legalese about some alleged EU law that people copy from each other. It’s fine not to have detailed knowledge about this, just don’t try to sound like a lawyer.

    This usually tells you that these people are either not too smart or they’re looking for loopholes for selling junk with dishonest descriptions. You’re supposed to sell what you say you are selling and copied disclaimers don’t change that.



  16. I look to Gunbroker for projects. It may take some time but if I wait long enough I find my projects for a price I’m willing to pay. I’ve found several Crosman (Crossman) 101s that way, along with other projects.


  17. Hm, I’m not so sure that I see the distinction between outright con-artists and what is described here. 🙂 It seems to be more a matter of degree. And it sounds like I’ve been lucky in my dealings with airgunners. Mike Melick has been all class and offered great service in fixing my IZH 61. And Rich Imhoff took a personal check for tuning my B30 saying that he has never had any problems with airgunners in his business. By the way, does anyone know what happened to him? He went by the name Rich from Mich, and I can’t find any trace of him which is a little weird since things are supposed to last forever on the internet.

    Firearms are a different story and most of my dealings with firearms dealers has been pretty poor, much in contrast to firearms shooters who are generally great people. There are even odd mixtures. I’ve dealt twice with a very reputable dealer in surplus military rifles. Service was horrendous. When I asked about a return policy, the obnoxious receptionist told me that I had better rethink my intention to buy from them because they didn’t appreciate the work that went into restocking. There’s a red flag and a reason to drop them. But I persevered because of their overall reputation, and what I got from them was outstandingly good. But I’ll be jiggered if I have any dealings with them again. The whole bargaining process is too brutal for me. Having secured just about all the guns I want with great care, I am more focused on enjoying them.

    Gunfun1, I agree that eye-position and holdover are unrelated. That’s what I was trying to say. But then I don’t see that there was ever any question. If your ballistics calculator gives you the answers to all the various problems, you can just use it and be done. I myself have no use for this technology because I don’t need it for my shooting situation and because I’m mostly interested in the physical principles. Once it is established that the eye should be lined up with the scope and that bullet trajectory is determined by gravity and a variety of other factors, how one comes up with a firing solution for their situation is entirely a matter of choice. You can use Chairgun. You can click corrections into your scope. You can use holdover with mildots. You can apply mildots by doping out corrections through trial and error. You can refine the mildot formula by hand based on scope height and any number of other variables. Or you can use some calculator to give you holdover. On the subject of technology, there is some new device called Tracking point or something like that which will make all of this irrelevant and allow you to hit just about any shot by squeezing the trigger. It’s all good.

    Matt61


    • Matt61
      And what you said is all true. Personal preference does always play a big factor. The more comfortable your are with the system you use the better.

      And I think we talked about that sighting system you just mentioned quite awhile back. It kind of uses the system the fighter pilots jet use.

      You lock on a target then when you pull the trigger and the cross hair intersects with the target the computer makes the gun fire. Definitely a interesting concept.

      And I’m pretty sure that I made this statement when we talked about it before. That system would take all the fun out of shooting. But then again I guess that system wouldn’t be used for fun.


      • It is interesting to think in a broad way about the exact mechanism that connects your scope and gun to the target to guide the bullet to the right spot. Physics does not allow action at a distance. Clearly the bullet is not wire guided. The only other possibility seems laser painting. So, is the laser used to launch the bullet under the exact right conditions after which it goes dumb? Or does the bullet remain smart in transit somehow responding to the laser signal directly and adjusting its flight? Beyond that distinction, the technical details go beyond me.

        Fortunately or not, I don’t believe that this system will kill our joy any time soon since it is priced at about $20,000. Besides, I don’t know that this or any projected system can account for all the variables that affect a projectile path; they can only give us successively better approximations. If you’re interested, you might want to search on the blog for Jane Hansen, an aeronautical engineer who posted awhile ago and inspired us to come up with a list of aerodynamic factors. I think we gave up from exhaustion, but an approximate list is something like:

        gravity

        elevation

        wind: the direction it is coming from and how far away it is

        the magnus force: which causes a vertical deflection dependent upon a sideways force (e.g. wind) and the direction of the bullet’s spin

        coriolis force – the effect of the earth’s rotation which equals one inch right at 600 yards with a centerfire bullet in the northern hemisphere

        ambient temperature

        humidity

        relative height of the target to the shooter (although this could be absorbed into gravity calculations as discussed)

        And all of this would be superimposed onto the factors in the gun such as:

        barrel heat

        twist rate

        powder charge

        seasoning of the barrel with powder

        And this goes on into intrinsic properties of the gun. And there’s also more in the realm of aerodynamics in terms of non-linear turbulence and bullet shape which is not theoretically understood, and I doubt that any computer can process all of it. But anyway, I think our most detailed discussion to date is clustered around Jane Hansen’s contributions.

        Matt61


        • Matt61
          When I mess around with a car and hot rodding it up there is a saying that we say. We go by the seat of the pants feel when you drive the car. Plain and simple feel if the car pulls harder with the changes you made.

          And a dyno is basically the chrony for a car. And there is formulas to figure out what the car will run in the 1/4 mile or how fast it will go on the top end. Computers to control things.

          And just like our gun shooting the other variables.

          What it all boils down to is what the results are when you fire the gun or drive the car.

          Yea that would be a smart bullet with that aim and forget system. On the other hand flip the scenario around. It seems that our bullets or pellets that you or me pull the trigger on must be pretty smart also then. My pellets are pretty smart at hitting on target.


    • Matt,

      In my mind, the outright con artists are criminals who know what they are doing. Sometimes they get their kicks from scamming people, but other times it’s just a business.

      The dealers I am describing are people who have deluded themselves into being able to live with what they are doing. They think things like, “Well, they should have checked for that if they didn’t want to get a dud.” In other words, they are rationalizing their actions and even thinking that they are honest, if crafty people.

      B.B.



      • Sorry, I repeated my comment from above. What I meant to say is that I understand your distinction, but as for rating them I would say that you are being your usual tolerant self almost to a fault. Charles Dickens addressed this in his novel Great Expectations when he says something like: Con-artists are pretty common but they don’t compare to self-deceivers who are effectively stealing from themselves. In other words, the self-deceivers are not better but worse, partly because they have lost all touch with reality.

        But both types are best treated as Huckleberry Finn describes in speaking of the two frauds, the King and the Duke, when he says that the best way to deal with them is to let them alone and get out of their way. In the case of the frauds, they end up getting tarred and feathered.

        Matt61


  18. I have rolled the dice on many occasions and have yet to be ripped off on a used airgun purchase. I have even bought a few from a guy named Carel from the Netherlands.

    I have bought used guns from Paul Watts, BB himself, and from Vince Brandolini. Great experiences, all.

    Anyone here know whatever happened to Vince? I haven’t seen him around in the longest time.


    • SL
      You know some of the older posters don’t reply anymore and some pop in at times.

      Maybe they found a better place. Although as it goes you make it what it is.

      Well and responsibilities change and it is hard to find time. And maybe they got mad about something. Maybe they are sick. I’m sure that has happened at some time to some people.

      As it goes times change. And some people let things go and some don’t.

      Just hopefully people that go are still sharing knowledge and helping.

      But who am I and what do I know. And time moves on. I’m just waiting always to see if tomorrow comes.


      • GF1

        Yeah, I know how it is. People come and go, just something you have to learn to accept. About the only people I still see posting from my early days are Matt61, TwoTalon, Kevin L, and Genghis Jan.

        Nothing wrong with the new crowd you understand, but sometimes you miss old friends.

        Vince is not the type to get in a tiff. I figured he was just busy, I just wanted to know if anyone had heard from him. He’s the type that can’t let an airgun pass through his fingers without tearing it down, and trying to make it better. You know the type, right?


        • SL
          I do believe I know somebody like that. 🙂

          And Vince always had some interesting info to talk about.

          And yes it is always nice to hear from people that you haven’t heard from or seen in a while.

          Maybe they will pop in from time to time in the future? I hope.


        • Slinging Lead, glad you are still around. One of the funniest people online as I’ve said before. 🙂

          As for me, I like to think of the line from The Lord of the Rings where the elf, Elrond, says, “I was there, 3,000 years ago.” Heh heh. It’s surprising how old the elves are. And even Aragorn, the king named in the third installment of the series, is about 187 years old, being half elf. Continuing from the novel version of the story I can add: “There are things older than even Sauron (Matt61), nameless things that gnaw the earth.” Just kidding. Nobody gnawed the earth that I was aware of, but there were regular posters from before me who have moved on.

          I am glad to report that many are doing well and remain as informative as ever. I’m hoping to see Victor at his amazing long distance range and meet our Olympic-level shooter in person some day. Derrick has finished building a very impressive AR when not occupying his time making amazing knife scabbards. Wayne, I’m guessing without knowing, is probably richer than ever and poised to become the best field target shooter in the world. Duskwight has been supplying me with key parts for the IZH 61 direct from Moscow and like a lot of the others is never to be counted out entirely when an interesting topic comes up.

          The wonder is that people have lasted as long as they have in comparison to the fly-by-night nature of the internet. But through it all, unchangeable like a force of nature, B.B. and Edith remain producing articles of the same high quality on a daily basis and remaining infinitely responsive through thick and thin. I’ve never seen anything like it.

          Matt61


          • Matt61

            Thank you for your kind words. Day to day, I get the most laughs from people when I have no idea what I have said that is so danged funny. I guess as long as folks are laughing it doesn’t matter if they are laughing with me or at me.

            I always enjoy reading from you as well. You fit my stereotype of librarians to a T, you know something about everything. Your posts are always an education. I have also vicariously enjoyed your foray into collecting historical battle rifles. Items such as those must have a soul all their own.

            I take a sabbatical from time to time but I always come back to the PA blog. There are always quality folks to be found here.

            But being a sentimental fool, I can’t help missing the old timers such as Frank B, Mr B., Volvo, Orrin, Bobby Nations, Vince, Derrick, Wacky Wayne, BG_Farmer, Cjr, Brian in Idaho, Rikib, Kidagain, Dave UK, AJ Venom and others I am sure I have forgotten.

            Of course you are correct. The hard work and fine example that Tom and Edith set are the high watermark for blogs/forums. Plus they both have great senses of humor.


            • And you all are forgetting my buddy Beezer.

              I always couldn’t wait to here what he had to say the next day.

              And dog gone it he’s got a TX and I got a TX and other people got TX’s now and he ain’t around to talk about it.





        • SL
          Matt61
          others

          What ever happened to Pete,the engineer with the most excellent math skills?

          GF1
          Thank you for your help.I can now be successful ,with your pointers.I have optimized my Marauder gen 1 in .25cal.for long distance shooting and can use Chairgun to know what to expect and how best to set the scope range when the storms are over.

          GenghisJan
          Thank you also.Now I’ll have to factor in even more computer time.:)

          TIn Can Man


          • Tin Can Man

            I think you might be talking about Pete Z? He had some somewhat severe medical difficulties a while back. In fact, if memory serves, his son donated a kidney to him. Last I read, he was recovering well and occasionally sneaking into the basement to shoot his air pistol.

            Happy shooting TCM, I hope you get some good weather soon.




  19. I tried to do a deal with a person who responded my “wanted to buy” ad on a popular site.
    He stated that the air gun he had available was “I got them from a friend about 5 years ago and I know they were working then. I only found one on line for sale. Like I said they are rare. Even if the seals were bad it only costs about $25 to have them replaced. Good luck in finding one.”

    I asked him to put in a co2 powerlet and try it out…”I am a collector and I don’t have any to put in to test. Sounds like you are getting an attitude. No way to deal with someone who is try to help you.”

    Red flags all around to me and I backed right off.

    Was I right to pull out of these negotiations?


    • Amen, bro, that one is a total stinker. Stay away. If he’s not a con of some sort, he’s an inexperienced newbe with wildly unrealistic expectactaftions.
      Of the two, I’d much rather deal with an honest crook than a an outright idiot.

      By the way, it is entirely okay to inform the idiot that he is, in fact, an idiot and he needs to take that night-school or community college course on “Internet Business” before he ever comes back here.
      Ever!


    • Wllm995,

      Welcome to the blog.

      I think those are red flags as well. I think you were right to back off. Whenever a person reacts too strenuously, it reminds me of Shakespeare. “The lady doth protesteth too much, methinks.” Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 2.

      B.B.


  20. Gunfun1

    With all your talk about Chairgun yesterday, I have need of help and you may be able to assist.I can’t use those programs for my real world situations because I can’t find information on the ballistic coefficients of my pellets.I guess there are some generalized figures I could use,but I don’t know what they are and I wonder of what use guesses are in a precision program when I want to know what to expect out of my gun with my pellet.Also,I don’t see how to accurately determine the center of bore to center of barrel distance when the scope stops before the barrel protrudes to where it can be measured.How can I figure these two parts out? -Tin Can Man-


    • TCM
      Chairgun is a air gun specific ballistic caculater. They have pull down menues that have a lot of the pellets we use. It gives weights and coefficients of those pellets so that’s that question.

      And a real easy way to measure scope to barrel centerline is take and lay your gun on its side on a table. Then take a 12″ ruler and measure in inches objective bell on the front of the scope. Devide by 2 and that s have of that diameter. Then do the same for the barrel. Then lay your ruler at the half way distance of the scope then measure down to the halfway distance of the barrel.

      I will go take a picture of one of my guns with the rulker and post the picture in a few minutes or so. Its very easy when you see it.


      • TCM
        Chairgun is a air gun specific ballistic caculater. They have pull down menues that have a lot of the pellets we use. It gives weights and coefficients of those pellets so that’s that question.

        And a real easy way to measure scope to barrel centerline is take and lay your gun on its side on a table. Then take a 12″ ruler and measure in inches objective bell on the front of the scope. Devide by 2 and that s have of that diameter. Then do the same for the barrel. Then lay your ruler at the half way distance of the scope then measure down to the halfway distance of the barrel.

        I will go take a picture of one of my guns with the rulker and post the picture in a few minutes or so. Its very easy when you see it.suppose to say divide by 2 and that’s half of that diameter.


    • TCM,

      Careful. Chairgun can be addicting. I now can hardly touch a new-to-me rifle without a full chairgun workup on the thing. For me, that’s a good thing, because the results are always excellent, and way quicker than the more ‘traditional’ methods!

      GF1’s ruler-based scope/bore measurement method is lovely. Another that I find very effective:

      http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1191092281/

      My favorite bible for precision/fussy scope installation, from the awesome Yrrah, is:

      http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1313923802/

      -Jan


      • Jan
        You and Kevin posted the same thing about drawing the lines on the paper and shooting. That is a nice easy way to measure scope height.

        And I taped the piece of paper on the barrel and scope centerline after I measured and found half of each diameter. I did that so people could get a visual of how I was measuring in the picture. I now just lay the ruler over the scope and barrel and eyeball the centerlines that take the reading off the ruler.

        But I still lay the yard stick on the center of the barrel if its a fixed barrel gun like the TX or LGU or a break barrel where the barrel don’t run all the way back to the scope.

        And yep Chairgun is very fun to use. I will sometimes input different things like the type of pellet I may be interested in trying. And it gives me a idea of how it differs from one I already have. Just to much stuff you can do with Chairgun.

        And the coolest thing of all its a program that is written with air guns in mind.


  21. BB,

    When you are off to Shot Show I don’t sleep well at night.It’s not because I’m worried about you,I’ll let Edith do that.It’s because of the way you stir up so much excitement.I hope that when you get back and have reviewed the new big bores,we can figure out which will fit my needs best.

    I have never purchased a used gun.I see too many “hotdogs” who get in there and “fix” and “improve” the guns and then want to sell them for more than a new one costs in exchange for all their work.I view these “improvements like accessories on a bicycle;they may like them but I seldom care and certainly don’t want to pay extra for them.Besides that ,maybe they mashed up screw heads or slipped and gouged something,used the wrong lubes.Maybe they tried the wrong screw in the wrong hole or cross threaded it twice before they got it right.And then there are all those homemade parts and “ingenuity” replacements.Well you probably get the idea.Even on guns that don’t look like they are messed with,they use them for a year and then want almost as much as new.I find that when I add the shipping, or the round trip gas costs to their asking price I can get it for the same money new from P.A.if they still carry it and it’s over the free shipping cost.I do hope to make a find at a yard sale some day,but around here it would be broken or worn out for sure.

    Ok Ok I have worried about your health and safety before but prayer set my mind at ease.Take care-Tin Can Man-


    • TCM
      Here is the Hawke webpage with info about Chairgun Pro. It should answer some of your questions if you have never looked into it.

      http://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun.html

      And here’s the picture of the scope height on my Monsoon. And if you look at the magazine clearance you can see why its mounted that high. I usually like the scope front objective lens about a 1/16” away from the barrel. and that’s why I like a 32 or 44 mm objective. You can mount the scope lower with the smaller diameter objective.

      But anyway the paper on the scope and the paper on the barrel is taped on so the paper is on the centerline of each. then I just take a ruler or machinist scale and measure from the straight edge of the paper. The scope centerline measurement I got was right at about 1 and 3/4 inches.

      http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag362/gcars/IMG_20150123_220041934_zpse981ff23.jpg

      And here is what I always say about Chairgun or any other ballistic calculator. It is a estimating tool. Its not real world get down and do it results. But it is a useful tool to help learn with.

      And what I found from talking with other people about Chairgun is that after you down load the program and start punching numbers in they don’t realize they can click on word descriptions and it will give that drag down menu. There is a long list of pellet weights and ballistic coefficients. It will give you fpe of energy readings also after you punch in the fps and pellet you use.

      Like I said it is a tool that can be used for a bunch of things once you learn how to use it. And I say its kind of silly if there’s a resource like that available and its even air gun specific and somebody don’t use it to try to learn. Its just on more thing to help to be aware of different things that can change your shooting abilities.



  22. This was posted by Bradly and went to spam. It was inadvertently deleted, so I am reposting it for him.

    Just the other day I posted a picture of 4 C02 pistols I have on a Facebook airgun group (buy/sell/or just brag). I had a guy respond that he’d like one. He wanted to trade me a over/under shotgun (with pictures). He asked that I ship him one and then he’d ship me the shotgun. WOW. I wasn’t born yesterday. On the other hand, there are really trusting buyers there too. I had a guy offer to buy a pellet rifle of mine. He is sending the money, then, after I get the money, I’m to send him the gun. Very trusting guy. That said, I’ll do as promised. I have to wonder how many would not! Thank God for the honest people out there. Seems to be fewer everyday.

    Bradly


    • Thank You B.B. I was thinking I said something wrong and it was deleted LOL. And just a follow up, the guy that said he’d trade a shotgun was warned. Even if he was honest, trading guns on there is a no no. Would shut us down. Bradly


  23. I would like to collect a series of side arms that were used by each country in WWII. They should look and operate as the originals, but not for shooting purposes. If anyone out there is also so inclined and has a list of each countries side arms, kindly let me know.


  24. Hi Tom,

    The next time you speak with a rep from Birchwood-Casey, please ask them to beef up the adhesive on their reactive target pasters. Mine fall off of whatever target I paste them on after only a few shots.

    Thanks!


  25. Edith,BB
    I got a question. as just going to make a order. I punched in the code for the 10% off+Free shipping over $149.00 and it says invalid code.

    Here’s the code. Touchdown-15

    Its on the top of the Pyramyd Air homepage right now. Says good til Feb.1st.

    Or am I missing something? Help if you can please.


  26. Hey i have a chance to pick up a challenger plainsman .22 pumper. Guy is asking 200. Guy says “haven’t fired it, but retains are when pumped” looks to be in very good condition


    • You got my attention, I’d wanna see it and be sure it was reliable enough for a shooter. If in good condition it may still even have collector value,so long as it’s all there and right.


    • Rob,

      I am suspicious. How does he know it holds if he hasn’t tested it?

      That gun is a notorious leaker. They used to bring that kind of money broken, but to fetch that much today it would have to work.

      Don’t expect much finish, as the paint flakes off that model.

      B.B.


      • He said hes been dry firing it. Ive asked him many questions before commuting to the drive to take a look at the pistol.
        He has no clue about airguns. He got it valued at 350-400 from Bonhams in SF. Who doesn’t deal in airguns.
        I asked him if it holds air over night. His response was “I’m not with the gun. When i get home tomorrow ill pump it and leave it over night.”
        Earlier he had mentioned he picked it up at an estate sale a year ago and its been sitting in his closest. So that lead me to believe its been sitting in pumped for a year. Now hes been dry firing to see if it still works.
        Hes got no clue if it actually will shoot a pellet. How much air is actually being pumped and not leaking out the barrel. I supplied Garvin with pictures for his Vintage Airgun Gallery. Here is the link

        http://www.network54.com/Forum/681456/message/1421943929/Plainsman+pneumatic+pistol




          • Hey BB,
            Ok i scored on that plainsman. When i pump it air flows out from muzzle. I dropped several drops oh pellgunoil on pivots, pins, couple on the head. A few short pumps strokes back and forth several times. Still hissing air. Dry fire a couple times. Couple more drops on head and let it sit for a day. Today still hissing, i dry fired several times than get a pump in and fire before air is gone. Did that a bunch oh times to get oil moving. You are of a handful who have owned a plainsman. I wish i could put pictures up to u.


            • I took the grip frame off the tube and barrel. The trigger is assembly is connected to the tube. 3 holes one for the screw that connects frame to tube. One hole with a flat head screw? Im guessing thats holding the valve in place? Third hole closest to the trigger of unknown purpose? Now to get to the valve i would assume id take the cap on the back off? That the cocking tube goes threw.


              • Ok, the only 2 things i cant get out. Is the valve and the barrel. I took the screw out that holds the barrel down. Its at that back band thats stamped 22. It has a slight play back and forth and in and out, but maybe a mm of movement. I can look down the breech end at the air port and there doesn’t look to be a bushing metal connector port. Ive tried pushing from both ends. Where the hammer strikes and where the piston head touches valve. Its factory flat top piston and valve if u forgot. Boy, was she dirty man thats what 60yrs oh oil and time looks like. Everything so far looks great other than being dirty.



  27. Gunfunn1,

    Downloaded the “Chairgun” early this am. I see + used the pull downs and read some of the help/instruction and even entered some data. Very cool. Quite detailed.

    It would seem that a chrony would be needed to enter the most accurate muzzle velocity for a given pellet as opposed to say plugging in a 750 for the TX. What ya think?



      • Gunfunn1,

        Oh no, something else to buy and learn! 🙂 In actuality, I love it. I want to get the most of the TX, just trying to figure out the best way of doing it. Of course, when spring gets here, I’ll be out in the yard doing test at different measured yardages with different pellets. I may/will have to cut a lane into the woods to get out to 50yds.

        Didn’t “Kevin in CT” get a .177 TX a short while back? The picks were nice. Nice grain on the cheek piece. Mine is nice but pretty much all straight grain with light and dark variations in grain. Wonder how he is making out?


        • Chris, USA
          Yes he did but I dont remember what caliber it was.

          And maybe you should clear you a lane out in the woods to 70 yards, who knows you may get a itch’n to shoot out a100 yards. And that sounds like more work clearing the woods too.

          I think I would rather do that chrony work.


          • Gunfunn1,

            :),….I work hard enough,… let alone wackin’ wood,…wait,..that doesn’t sound right,. 🙁 …chrony is on “the list”. Will do some research tomorrow and maybe buy local. Got to support the locals from time to time ya’ know. Sure you don’t work for P.A.?

            Till’ I get one, what’s the hold over on a .22, 15.89g at 750fps at 100yds anyway? 😉


            • Chris, USA
              Nope don’t work for PA.

              And let me see a 100 yard shot with a .22 cal. pellet.

              I can do that one in my head. More than what is needed at 80 yards with the same gun and pellet.

              Sorry, I just had to do that. 🙂


        • The best tip I can give ya about using a chrony is keep it well lit with correct lighting( incandescent or sunlight) /non flourescent and all should go smoothly, things go fast then


  28. There are some interesting developments from the firearms side of the SHOT Show. The Springfield Armory is making available its loaded M1A with the Archangel stock. The loaded M1A is midway between the standard and the match grade and as such is still barely within reasonable expense. The Archangel stock, as I see it, is the final solution and culmination of the reborn M14 which is to say the Garand platform to which it is almost identical. The Garand, as I believe, remains a perfection of its own. However, the assault rifle concept has definitely nudged the battle rifle to the side, and the role left to the Garand was as a long range, precision weapon. This was realized as early as Vietnam with the army’s M21 sniper system. But there hasn’t really been a successful, affordable stock. The early wood stocks swelled and lost zero. The subsequent synthetic stocks did not seem to be a high enough quality. The designated marksman concept breathed new life into the platform. But none of them seemed quite right. The Mk14 chassis system made of aluminum allowed modern ergonomics but was too heavy and expensive. The JAE stock was too heavy. The scout squad and SOCOM 16 versions cut down the barrel to remove weight but were incredibly loud. The MacMillan stock required glass bedding. The Smith Enterprise Crazy Horse stocks amounted to custom work and cost a fortune. All of the stocks also struggled with the problem of scoping an action designed to eject from the top. Most had their points, but none seemed quite right, until now. The Archangel is cheap; it’s highly accurate; and it’s light. It’s a modification that I had fantasized about doing to the Springfield M1A loaded system which, while being cast instead of forged, is impressive. Now Springfield is bringing my fantasy to life. I think this is an important moment in the design’s history and Garand fans will want to rejoice. To keep the price down, I would top it with a Leaper’s scope.

    The other big news is the reintroduction of the Galil to the American market. The Galil is an Israeli rifle that says a lot about competing rifle designs. I believe that at the foundation of Israel in 1948, upon which they were instantly attacked with overwhelming force by their neighbors, that their main rifle was the surplus Mauser 98k from Germany which makes for an interesting historical twist. Subsequent to that, they were armed with the much-vaunted FN FAL, the right arm of the free world. But in the desert conditions, it apparently jammed quite a bit. I think this realization came in one of their wars with Egypt in the early 70s. So, they took a hard look at the possibilities with an abundance of experience and the model they selected was an AK 47 that they modified slightly and called the Galil. I believe these were replaced subsequently by M16s although that decision may have been driven by enormous American aid. On the other hand, the fact that Israel made a go of the AR in the desert until very recently does say something about this platform.

    The new Galil answers another interesting question in the old AR vs. AK debate. The popular wisdom, that the AR offers accuracy while the AK offers reliability, I believe is based on a comparison of the most recent, highly built-up ARs with the classic wood-stocked AKs. You can see that in the average price of the two designs. In those conditions, the comparison is granted. But what if you applied all the modifications of the AR with its rails, accessories, tighter tolerances, improved barrels–everything but its DGI action–to the AK? There have been reports scattered around the internet of surprising results approaching 1 MOA and being almost indistinguishable from AR performance. All of this is subject to question about the exact conditions of the test. However, American Rifleman, has just run one of its gold standard accuracy tests on the new Galil. The result for the average of five, 5 shot groups at 100 yards is .98 inches! That’s hard to overlook. However, the price of the Galil is $2000, so I don’t expect to get one. To get AR performance, you need to pay AR prices which suggests that the difference between the two guns is more from build quality than pure design. I doubt that any AK can equal B.B.’s super-accurate AR, but short of that, I expect the two designs would pretty much converge.

    As another point, it makes you wonder about the connection between the AK and the M1 Garand. While the AK borrowed its appearance from the German STG 44, its action apparently was a combination of existing designs with the long stroke piston and some elements of the bolt and trigger very similar to the M1 Garand. That Kalashnikov could have independently come up with what genius John Garand developed over 20 years of research seems unlikely. On the other hand, how would Russia have gotten hold of an M1 Garand since until the Russian soldiers shook hands with the Americans over the Elbe River in Germany in 1945, the American and Russian fronts were not in contact? Still, there was an awful lot of aid flowing between the two countries. Since Kalashnikov’s exact use of the M1 Garand design has not been addressed in the voluminous literature, I don’t suppose we’ll ever know.

    Mike, right you are about shot placement for feral hogs. But I think it is fair to say that as your caliber goes up, your percentage of a hit goes down unless offset by greater skill. Besides, in the one video I saw, the shot from the .375 H&H magnum hit the animal more or less center of mass and did not drop it right away. It kept running for a time. I have seen reports that the desperate efforts to eliminate feral hogs have initiated a kind of speeded up evolution or breeding of the feral hogs so that some are appearing with plates of bone shielding their sides and are like little armored cars.

    Matt61


    • Matt61,

      Wow!…What kind of of Java you sippin’ on? I have no clue as to 99% of what your talking about, but very well written and punctuated. Easy to read.

      Interesting side note on the “Texas Tuskers”. Makes ya wonder, don’t it?


    • I don’t think there has been any speeded up evolution with hogs. Most if not all have the bone shielding, always have. It doesn’t surprise me that a hog would run a bit after being hit somewhat far back. Most don’t drop at the shot unless the central nervous system is hit or major bones are broken. Than goes for deer too.

      You are correct about Kalashnikov’s exact use of the M1 Garand design for the trigger/hammer. Why mess with perfection? He also said that Garand was the best rifle designer ever. BTW, one of the problems that Israeli had with the FN FAL was poor maintenance by line soldiers. I got that piece of information from someone that was there. An AK will work better if it is given almost no care.

      Mike


  29. Matt61

    So in peacetime I’ll take the a new AR,but in wartime I’ll take even an old AK.I don’t care if I can hit a quarter at 100 yards if she won’t fire when the guy up ahead is firing on me. -Tin Can Man-


  30. Hey! Buldawg and Gunfun1, I recall B.B mentioning the Hatsan carnivore line and sure enough it’s offered on PA’s list, $750 in .30 or .357 I didn’t bring a link to post but would if I had one. I don’t think they’re in stock yet but it shouldn’t be long before we hear about someone getting one. I’m considering getting into PCP and that may just be the nudge I needed.



      • I hope it does well! I was hoping that would be your big unveiling but I agree That the .458 by Air force is bigger, just don’t look as totable. It takes me so many trips anymore to get everything together for a session of shooting that I’m wore out when I sit down.


  31. Hi Tom,

    I am an avid UK blog-reader and was wondering if you could shed some light on a project I have been considering. I’m looking to convert a Crosman 1077 to HPA using an 88g powersource adapter and a small, reg’d paintball tank (in particular, one made by Guerilla Air and distributed by Rap4). Now, here’s my dilemma. I am looking to use this setup to potentially fulfil some close range small pest control and as such would like as much power as possible. The setup would be used inside of 20 yards and I would use heavy pellets (10-11 grain minimum) as from my testing, these have yielded ft.lb readings considerably (around 1 ft.lb) higher than typical 7-8 grain medium weight pellets).

    Due to the cooling effect of co2 (and the fairly mild temperatures over here in the UK), HPA seemed like a more logical power source. So here’s the dilemma. The HPA tanks I can purchase come reg’d at various pressures. By default, they’re reg’d to 800-850psi which would be great, but they can be reg’d all the way up to 1100 psi. My question is, from your experience, what would be the power increase (indeed, if there is one) from the higher pressure? My concern (and I have limited experience in this so it is just conjecture) is that the hammer may not strike hard enough to open the valve sufficiently at those pressures and hence 1100psi may in fact yield lower power levels than 800-850psi. What are your thoughts on this? Are my concerns entirely unfounded?

    Cheers,

    Oliver


    • Oliver,

      I think you have figured it out correctly. The 1077 has a double-action hammer that’s going to strike lighter than any dedicated single action jammer. And it isn’t easy to change, because part of the mechanism in inside the magazine housing.

      I think 800-900 psi is right for the 1077.

      B.B.


    • Be sure to keep us informed on your testing! There was quite a bit of discussion on this conversion and the general concenses was that the hammer strike wouldn’t allow for HPA to boost performance, I favor a middle ground such as you’re proposing. Of course I’m sure you’ll find a sweet spot!


  32. B.B.

    I was looking at reviews on hand pumps today.
    I saw some people has hooked a low pressure air compressor,Or portable air tank regulated to 35psi to the intake of their hand pump to reduce the amount of pumps needed to fill a gun by at least half. They say it doesn’t hurt the pump.
    Have you heard of anyone doing this? What are your thoughts?

    Dryfire.


    • Dryfire
      I do believe that’s a good idea.

      The Shoebox compressors went from 85 psi on their first designs to now using 100 psi on the intake side.

      It will make more heat though. That is what helped the Shoeboxes out. Their Freedom 8 design uses different hard lines between the cylinders that are could which allows for a longer line to be used to aid cooling.

      I haven’t tryed it but I think I will on my old Benjamin pump just for the heck of it. But not on my Hill pump. Don’t want to mess my hill pump up. You know for just in case purposes.

      Oh and I do know that my Shoebox will fill faster at 90 psi then 85 psi. I got one of the belt driven first designs right after they came out with the belt design. I will bump it up to 90 psi if I’m in a hurry to fill my buddy bottle. But I ain’t brave enough to try a100 psi like the Freedom 8 runs on.

      I would just say keep an eye on heat. It will harden the whit o-rings that are in the hand pump. Yes I know they are white o-rings because I did rebuild my Benjamin pump.

      I don’t now when I will get around to trying that but let me know if you do. Next thing you know somebody will be supercharging the intake air on the hand pumps with nitrogen. Ain’t that what they call artificially adding air to something. I learned that with hot rodding cars.
      🙂



        • Gunfun1

          I don’t have a PCP yet. That’s why I was looking at the hand pumps.
          I’m thinking seriously about a Marauder in .22, But the tank and other accessories don’t fit in my budget, And there is no place around where I live to get the tank refilled.
          I like the idea of having a PCP but I shoot a couple of hundred rounds a day on the weekends(weather permitting). That would be a lot of pumping!
          If you do try hooking an air supply to a hand pump Please let me know how that works for you.
          Thanks.
          Dryfire.


          • Dryfire
            I will sure let you know if I try.

            But I truly do believe that idea will work fine of using a portable tank or a shop compressor.

            Just as long as the compressor is a oil-less design and then stay at that 35 psi. You may be able to add more than 35 psi but it will put more stress on the pump and you also. Plain and simple it will be harder to pump.

            When I turn the intake pressure up from my shop compressor from 85 psi to 90 psi I can hear it loading or dragging the Shoebox down.

            I think its a cool idea to use on a hand pump.



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