by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- They’re listening
- History
- Benjamin Discovery
- Not just guns
- Companies watch other companies, too
I was frustrated this morning while trying to sight in the Kral Puncher Breaker bullpup for the first accuracy test. I was getting nowhere and burning time. It’s not the rifle’s fault. It was a confluence of imponderables that would have taken too long to sort out and get a blog ready to publish in one day. I will give you the details when I report on the rifle, so I thought I would do tomorrow’s blog today.
They’re listening
In case you wonder, “they” are everyone who is not us. That’s wisdom from the oracle of the north — Red Green. In today’s case, they are the manufacturers.
History
Back in 2005 when I first floated the idea of a 2000 psi PCP to several manufacturers I was met with skepticism. You can’t get 1000 f.p.s. on 2000 psi of air pressure. People don’t want cheap PCPs! As long as PCPs cost under a thousand dollars, that’s good enough, because the PCP market is very small.
That was the wisdom of the day in 2005/6. But one company actually wondered whether it might be possible. Ed Schultz of Crosman prototyped a PCP for my idea based on the Crosman 2260 and, lo and behold, the Benjamin Discovery was born.
Okay, Tom, it does work, but do people really want a cheap PCP? Is there a market? I was asked that question by the CEO of Crosman before we began the Discovery’s development in 2006. I said yes, but who really knew? It had never been tried.
Today airgunners are buying more expensive PCPs than they used to. That market has certainly increased. But the market for PCPs costing less than $300 is in orbit! Look at what we have.
Benjamin Discovery
Benjamin Maximus
Benjamin Wildfire
Umarex Gauntlet
Beeman QB Chief
Diana Stormrider
Gamo Urban
And those are just the ones starting at less than $300. I wanted to list everything less than $500, but there are just too many! In 2006 only AirForce Airguns made PCPs for under $500. Ten years later a company stands out if they do make a PCP that’s pricy.
The thing I was told could never happen in 2005 has become the fastest-growing segment of the airgun market in ten short years! It wasn’t just Crosman and me with the Discovery, either! Oh, we started the pebble down the slope, but the momentum built, and today every manufacturer who wants to thrive has to pay attention to this segment of the market.
I could say lots more about companies that are listening to the demand for shrouds, regulators, repeaters, better triggers and even big bores, but I’ve made my point.
Not just guns
I remember a SHOT Show in either 1997 or ’98, where I met a new scope manufacturer. They had a scope that was so short! It was half the length of all other scopes. I spoke to them a little and they were receptive to my thoughts. I told them if they would just change that scope’s adjustable parallax from a minimum of 25 yards to a minimum of 10 yards, airgunners would buy them. I would buy them. I meet a lot of people at every SHOT Show and everyone is hyped up on adrenalin, so who knows if any of them will deliver? But every so often, one does!
The next year I stopped by this company’s booth first thing and was surprised to see a scope whose parallax adjusted — not just to 10 yards. Not even to five! This short scope adjusted down to 3 yards! That’s only 9 feet! I told the manufacturer that airgunners would use these scopes to shoot insects with, and the Bug Buster was born! Yes, I’m talking about Leapers.
Leapers listens, and they try to give us the products we want. How about the 4-16 Bubble Leveler scope? We talked about it for many years and I saw several prototypes, but when I finally saw the production scope I was amazed. The optics must be seen to be appreciated. It is one of the clearest, brightest scopes available!
Here is a story many of you new guys won’t remember, but the folks who have been shooting airguns for 20 year know it very well. Diana breakbarrels used to droop severely. I spoke to their vice president of marketing at the SHOT Show about this. She assured me there was no problem because both the front and rear sights are mounted on the barrel. Besides — who puts a scope on an air rifle? Being German, she saw things differently. And their Diana 34 was already selling so well that they felt it was fine.
I went to my new friends at Leapers at the next SHOT Show with an idea for a scope mount base that wouldn’t strip out the shallow holes in the Diana scope base and also would not shear off that large-headed screw in the back. That was my idea. My buddy Mac piped up and said as long as they were fixing those things they might as well fix the drooping problem, too. The Drooper scope base was born!
Tens of thousands of these bases were sold and are still selling, but here is the bigger thing. Diana listened! They are taking more care today to minimize droop, as well as fixing many other things. And they changed their scope bases so the old UTG drooper base no longer fits.
Companies watch other companies, too
In fact, the new owners of Diana are paying close attention to the world market and what it says about their products. I recently tested a reader’s Diana 34P and was pleasantly surprised by the small but significant improvements I saw. This is more proof that airgun companies are listening.
This is a short report. I need the extra time to sort out the Kral scope and get the gun on paper. I will tell you everything when I cover it.
Just remember, you do have a voice and the airgun manufacturers are listening.
Sorry everyone. I never scheduled this to publish.
B.B.
B.B.,
No problem. I’ve learned not to panic unless the blog is over 12 hours due. Besides you are still not at a 100% back in health.
Siraniko
Did I miss something? What’s the problem? Is it the eye condition mentioned some time before?
Matt61
Matt61,
B.B. had been under the weather last Friday. He says he’s gotten better though.
Siraniko
Speaking of shrouds, regulators and repeaters, and under $300.00:
/product/benjamin-fortitude-gen-2-pcp-air-rifle-regulated?m=4569
I hope we can expect a review soon.
Steven,
I do too. It’s not on the market yet, but I do hope to see and shoot it at the SHOT Show next week.
B.B.
B.B.
This is a very interesting rifle with all the attributes desired in a PCP. I have been contemplating the purchase of the Gamo Urban but this new entry has caused me to hold off. If it turns out to be as accurate as the Maximus, it will be a no brainer. Nothing else in this category will touch it. That’s my take on it.
Geo
P.S. Hope you are feeling better. The flu is near epidemic levels here in MI and flu shots are not effective.
Geo791,
The problem with flu shots is that they can only protect you from three varieties of flu. Annually researchers try to predict the most likely types of flu and recommend which three strains to vaccinate against. Unfortunately there are thousands of varieties of flu. That’s why there is some sense of panic when there is an outbreak that was not predicted and why those who had a flu shot can still get sick.
Siraniko
B.B.,
Please ask Crosman about the barrel on the Fortitude. You know we have been speculating. I think it is a 20 inch barrel like the Marauder so we hope they are using the Maximus barrel process in making it.
If you need more rest post some of your old reports. They stand the test of time. You need your strength for the show.
Don
If it shoots as good as my Maximus does, and it should, it will do great. That is obviously a great blend of features in a light weight package! I like what I see, but we might be killing some aftermarket parts suppliers.
StevenG
We just had a pretty big conversion about this the other day. Idaho brought it up. You must of missed it.
GF1
Yes, I read those comments. I am very excited about this new entry into the PCP world. I have been thinking about buying a Gamo Urban but this new Crosman Fortitude has cause me to hold off for a while. If it is as accurate as the Maximus we will have a real winner 🙂
Geo
Geo
Did you see they have a 5 year warranty on the Fortitude and some of the other Crosman/Benjamin pcp’s.
Right there that’s a no brainer for me. I was interested in the Gauntlet. But don’t trust Umarex about how their warrenty and parts availability are.
And I bet that Gamo/Daisy doesn’t offer a 5 year warranty on the Urban.
I will be getting the Fortitude. Well that is as long as they don’t do like they did to the regulated Marauder. Show it to release on the PA site. Then push it back then stop it. Then all of a sudden it shows up on the Crosman site in the custom shop guns for alot more money. To me that was a bad ball game if you know what I mean.
GF1
Yes, I did notice the five year warranty on the new Fortitude. The Gamo Urban does have a five year warranty as well. From what I’ve read, the Urban is most likely manufactured in Birmingham England by BSA. I understand that Gamo bought part of BSA but my hope was that the Urban would have BSA quality, not Gamo quality.
And I know what you mean about the Gauntlet and Umarex and parts availability. I have read that some of the Gaunlets were lacking in quality and so it would be luck of the draw. The thing about the Gauntlet that I don’t care for is the length and the weight. Might be okay for bench shooting but would be cumbersome to carry around in the woods. I want something compact and light…that is accurate. The Urban might have similar issues with parts availability but I do believe it has much better consistent quality than the Gauntlet.
Sure hope Crosman does not keep us hanging for too long. I’m taking a wait and look see but I won’t wait for ever and if the price jumps up, that would be a deal breaker too.
Geo
Geo
Yep I have heard in the past that the Urban is basically a BSA. And yep not produced actually by Gamo. BSA are suppose to be pretty good pcp’s. I haven’t owned one though so don’t know how well they actually hold up or if you can get replacement parts for guns or you actually have to send the guns in for repairs. That’s what I have always liked about Crosman. I can at least get the parts if I want to do the work myself. Of course I would have to pay for them. But on the other hand I have told them what a problem was with a gun and they have sent me the part free of charge.
So I guess with me is I have delt with Crosman for a long time with their guns. I basically have the feeling and trust that they will take care of or have what I need when I want it. You know kind of like if you had a bunch of Chevy muscle cars and you known the parts guy at the local Chevy dealer for 30 years or more. You just know what is going to happen when you talk to them. With the others like Gamo or Umarex I don’t know what to expect. And that’s basically because I haven’t dealt with them like I have with Crosman. Gamo who knows but Umarex yes skeptical about them from previous experience. That’s the best I can say.
StevenG,
Thanks for posting this – I missed the conversation the other day and was not aware of it.
Looks like they are listening. The Fortitude might be the ideal small game/plinking rifle – a repeater with good power, shot count, regulated, and light weight to boot.
A Fortitude just got added to my short list.
Hank
It was just put on my short list too and if it turns out to be as accurate as the Maximus, it will go to the top of that list too.
Agreed! Right to the top of the list!
Figure that it has a Maximus barrel (IMHO it would be real dumb if they did different) so that teamed up with a regulator should make it a real contender in the accuracy department.
Excited for this one!
Geo,
The only thing in retrospect that I would wish for on the Fortitude would be a pistol gripped/thumbhole style stock. Other than that, that would be my pick of the litter. Now that I have regulated the Maximus, I would have to think pretty hard before springing for a Fortitude.
Personally, I would like to see some more specific details. For one, what barrel did they use? That would be good for a starter! And, if they pull it off the P.A. site as they did with the reg. M-rod,.. I will be giving Crosman/Benjamin a HARD second (not) look? Are you “listening” Crosman?
Chris,
I agree with you. The thumb hole stock is one of the features I really like about the Urban, which by the way, also has a five year warranty. I have seen Urbans at the $250 price point and that’s a lot of rifle for that price in my opinion, and I haven’t read anywhere about poor accuracy from it.
This Fortitude is a very exciting new entry. But like you say, we have to see more specifics yet. I can’t wait to see some reviews on it. If this rifle turns out to be good, it’s going to outclass everything out there presently.
Chris,
I will admit that the Fortitude, if it ever is released (Crosman, after all) is getting close. Pop a low-power aftermarket regulator in it, replace the trigger with a good one, make it a 2000 psi fill, and have it use a dependable, metal magazine . . . well, maybe it isn’t close, just closer. :^)
Michael
I got an Urban for $187 and like it a lot. I really scored on the before Christmas deal. I own 99 Airguns currently but The Fortitude might be #100 even though I don’t “need” it! I may have to build a storage room though. LOL
Oops, Not $187 it was $172.95
DanLK
Wow! That was a great price! Now they are selling at $299 again.
I know I wasn’t going to buy one because spare magazines are $50 each but at that price it took care of that!
Chris,
I posted up here because the other discussion ran out of respond buttons.
“The magazines on the M-rod work just fine and are economical. 0% issues.” That’s what I’ve kept reading over the years, but my mileage varied, so to speak.
The Euro version of the Maximus is almost good enough for me, but life is too short for so-so triggers. Besides, Crosman won’t sell me one and no retailers carry it. I was close to buying a Stormrider until I read about it’s receiver’s junk metal. The last thing anyone needs is a PCP version of the Schimel.
IMO, PCPs still have a way to go.
Michael
Hank
Here you go. The conversation about the Fortitude starts around half to 2/3rd’s down in the comments. But read the other comments too. Lot of good conversation on that blog report.
/blog/2018/01/remington-model-33-single-shot-rimfire-part-3-2/#comments
Thanks GF1!
This helps – was going to look for that conversation!
Hank
Hank
No problem. And like I mentioned. Read all the comments. There was multiple subjects discussed on that blog. Kind of long but worth reading.
Wow! I just might have to break down and buy that and slap one of those new 3-12 Bug Buster scopes on it.
Hey RR,
Thinking that a 3-12 Bug Buster would suit a Fortitude right fine. Would you get a .22 for hunting/plinking or a .177 for plinking?
Hank,
I would most definitely go for a .22. I have several antique .177 air rifles and an AirForce Edge so I think I have .177 covered well.
I do think that the marketing crew could have done better in the name department. Oh well, as long as it shoots.
RR,
.22 for me as well. The .177 is good in a springer but prefer .22 for all around use in a PCP.
… Yup, Call it anything you like – as long as it shoots 🙂
StevenG,
Wow, that is nice looking. I wonder if it will shoot on a 2000 psi fill? I know the Umarex Gauntlet will, I just don’t know how many shots it gets on 2000 psi fill….But I’m sure BB will be able to tell me once he gets his testing done..hint hint 🙂
Doc
B.B.,
Red Green? Well at least now I know how to fix a flat. 😉
Mike
Use duct tape? 😉
Larry,
Yea, kinda, shoe tires. A video so stupid it was funny.
Mike
Mr Gaylord:
I know you addressed this question in your The Golden Rule blog post of 2 October 2017
/blog/2017/10/the-golden-rule/
But if THEY are listening, then TO THEM, I renew my request for some enlightened manufacture to take one of these under $300 PCP rifles and do two things. First de-tune it so it meets the 3P rule of rule 4.1.7 and the limit of 600 fps muzzle velocity.
Second, please please please, submitted this de-tuned under $300 PCP for inclusion on the approved rifle list (Rule 4.2.1)
When that happens, I predict that there will be a market for such a PCP rifle. This will be a PCP rifle a junior can purchase with their own allowance and odd job money and then shoot at 3P and 4P matches.
And Thank You for listening.
Respectfully submitted,
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Venture Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
William,
They would be competing with their own Challenger PCP. It’s already accurate. Would they want to do that?
B.B.
Mr. Gaylord:
I’m not sure I follow your logic. If the standard is the Crosman Challenger PCP priced at the very top of the applicable cost line ($529.99) and even then without sights, then why has there been the development of the rifles you’ve listed in today’s’ blog post
Benjamin Discovery
Benjamin Maximus
Benjamin Wildfire
Umarex Gauntlet
Beeman QB Chief
Diana Stormrider
Gamo Urban.
Air gun manufacturer must realize that their price point competition isn’t just other air rifles. Price wise they’re competing with the likes of .22LR Ruger and Marlin and Savage rifles.
Why has Benjamin developed and marketed three very similar rifles? I wish I understood product development and marketing better. I’m a semi-retired lawyer who openly and unashamedly doubles as a rifle and pistol coach to help youngsters who aren’t into team sports qualify for college scholarships. As you’ve heard my wife says I’m a shameless BSA recruiter. 🙂 “)
You’ve asked Would they want to do that? And I honestly don’t know. But I still feel there’s a market for a less expensive rules compliant PCP 3P rifle.
If a young man or woman comes into the crew with a $200 10/22, I work with that youth and the equipment bring. If they don’t have equipment, then the crew provides their necessary equipment.
From my vantage point, air rifles permit indoor marksmanship work when outdoor ranges here in Michigan are below freezing for weeks at a time. Another advantage to air rifles is the availability of postal matches and the fact that during the National .22lr sporter class matches at Camp Perry my youth can go over to the base’s Anderson Range and plink, have fun or get another CMP college scholarships match under their belt.
I’ll get off the soap box now.
Thanks for the response and thanks for lisitening
Respectfully
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
Mr. Schooley,
I know how passionate you are about these issues on gun price and approval by how often you have spoken of it here. Stick with it and you may effect change. I know I can see the logic of it and am rooting for you to make the gunmakers aware as well.
Halfstep:
You’re right.
But my real passion is youth development through the tool of shooting sports. I believe that getting lower priced more affordable equipment into the hands of junior shooters is one of the keys to achieving this goal. I also believe that rifles are tools to be used to develop safe gun handling techniques, the fundamentals of marksmanship, having fun shooting and enjoying the company and camaraderie of the other youth in the crew. And maybe for some, the competitions needed to qualify for college scholarship dollars.
If a youth develops his or her own passion for the shooting sports, there’s time to grow into better, more expensive equipment. For most of my junior shooters though, the need is to develop skills first so that they learn to shoot up to the potential of the rifle they’re actually using.
Maybe someday, the price of rule compliant PCP’s will come down. As I’ve said to Tyler@PA, I’m sustained by the fact that it hasn’t been that long ago that the idea of a $200 PCP was a dream chasing a fantasy. Now they’re a market reality.
Respectfully
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
You know what I ran across last night on the Crosman website.
The Ravens have two different part numbers. They both sell for around $79 on their website. But one is advertised around 600 fps and the other at 400 fps.
Just thought I would mention that since you brought up youth shooting. And I’m guessing the 400 fps Raven would be the one chose if legal compared to what the green Embark velocity is. The main thing is I never knew two different velocity’s was available for the Raven. And it looks like PA sells the 600 fps model of the Raven.
And William do they even have youth shooting competition’s anymore that use break barrels besides what the Embark is used in?
Gunfun 1
While the crew still has several Daisy Avanti 753’s in our inventory, we don’t have any break barrel rifles. I honestly cant remember seeing a competitor using a barrel rifle in a match. But the Raven or the Embark sure look like solid entry level air rifles for youngsters in either a cub pack or a scout troop.
Maybe the BSA summer camp where the crew shoots would be interested in adding either or both rifles to their camp inventory. It’s defenitly somthing to discuss with the camp ranger.
Thanks for the tip.
Respectfully,
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
William
Thanks. And I’m not up on the youth programs like I should be.
But it just crossed my mind making wonder if spring break barrels was even thought of anymore. But thanks again for the reply.
William
This is harder than you’re making it sound. Let’s look at the PCP options currently out there and how they might apply. I’m going to rule out all Crosman/Benjamin guns because they already make the most popular Sporter Class rifle in use. The Umarex Gauntlet would also be immediately disqualified because of it’s weight.
So that leaves us with two:
1) Beeman Chief
2) Diana Stormrider
You’re immediately at a disadvantage with either because of the stocks. New stock (likely synthetic to keep weight down) means a mold cost. That’s BIG BIG money for a relatively small market that is already owned by Crosman. You’ve already scared away most of your manufacturers right there. But let’s say you kept the stocks as they are, no adjustment, no frills, just as they are now. That stock does not grow with the shooter like the challenger does, that’s a turn off right there. The triggers on the above rifles quite honestly SUCK in comparison to a T200 trigger or Challenger trigger (after all, they’re entry level hunting PCPs). The quality and consistency of the barrels is not up to the standards of the T200 or Challenger. To achieve this better quality will cost money (the largest amount after a mold cost for the stock). Whether it is better QC in China or getting LW barrels, that cost will definitely be felt by the consumer, likely to the tune of $50-100. Sights are pretty easy but certainly not free, so you’re ending up putting another $50 or so in retail cost to consumer into the gun.
So we’ve gone from $200 to $350 really quickly, and the ergonomics and the trigger still aren’t on par with the competition. Maybe I can justify that difference based on the price, but it creates a question in the consumers head as to which they should purchase, it’s not the no brainer decision you might think. The consumer here wants something that gets them shooting but competes within the Sporter division. That second part is very important. Let’s not forget the 753 variants from Daisy that can be had for as little as $250 touting the LW barrel and better ergonomics. No longer is that gun the go-to it once was because of PCP’s. So maybe this more affordable rifle replaces the SSP in Sporter class for good.
Now all that is fine, but the biggest hurdle you’re going to have is to find someone (manufacturer or distributor) that is willing to sink all this time, marketing dollars and know how into a rifle they’re going to sell very few of. One, because it’s a market dominated by Crosman and two, because it’s a small sub-market of air rifles sales in general.
Sorry for being long winded, but I hope that addresses the reality of why your request likely won’t happen anytime soon. Maybe once we’ve let these low cost, feature laden PCPs run their course and hopefully realized the growth within the ranks of airgunners that it should bring. When that happens, and there’s an influx of young shooters into the 10m/3p ranks, you’re going to get what you want…and likely from more than one place. But right now, we need to wait and see if we’re going to get that growth, if we do, it will bring good things for us all!
Tyler
Tyler@PA
Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful response. I so agree with your observation that maybe once mass marketing of the low cost, feature laden PCPs run their course less expensive entry level PCP rifles for shooters into 10m and 3p might come along. I’m sustained by the fact that it hasn’t been that long ago that the idea of a $200 PCP was a dream chasing a fantisy. Now they’re a market reality.
Respectfully
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
William
I keep thinking back to BB report on the $100 pcp.
It really should be a reality.
Gunfun1,
I do not disagree, but what I would like to see more than anything else airgun-wise, it would be a quality HPA all-in-one compressor (like the Air Venturi) for $500. I suspect that if there were the will, there would be a way, because there are junk ones all over the internet from China for under $300 (with free shipping — from China).
Michael
Michael
That was the best laugh I have had in a long time.
How many of those China compressor’s have you owned now? 😉
And don’t ask me what I think of them. You just might get a surprise. 🙂
Gunfun1,
I haven’t had the nerve to buy one.
Are they any good? If so, which one(s)?
Michael
Michael
Think about this.what are you more apt to have laying around. $300 or $1200. Next how many years do you hope to need it. Then how often you will use it. Will it be just short runs to fill a gun or long runs for a tank.
That’s what you need to think about. I just use mine for short 1-1/2 to 2 minute runs filling the guns directly. I don’t have the higher fill pressure of 4500 psi that’s needed to fill a tank. So less stress on the compressor also.
And cost wise I think this way. If the compressor lasts say just 4 years. And I buy a new one every 4 years. That’s 16 years. Then that’s the cost of the higher cost air compressors of $1200.
So for how I use it and only $300 and it lasts 4 years that will make me happy. And I’ll be 60 by then. Buy another and it lasts 4 years I’ll be 64 then if I did that 2 more times every 4 years I’ll be 72. So the way I see it is I’m saving money for other things that I want or need buying the cheaper China compressor.
And answering your question mine is super fast. Like I said it will fill a gun in around 1-1/2 minutes. And so far it’s been working great. Like I say. Time will tell.
Gunfun1,
Excellent observations all. You have caused me to reflect on all of that.
I just checked out a bunch of those bargain-basement compressors available, ranging from $300 – $579 (all including shipping). Most are in the $300 – $370 range. That IS mighty tempting.
The new question for me is, just how much better is shooting a PCP for me (a short distance plinker and paper puncher) than any of my high-end springers? My FWB 300s, 150, and 601 are all kinda heavy, and the 601 cocks with a slight bit of difficulty as I get older. My FWB 24 is sweet, but it really is more power than I require. My HW77 and TX200 are heavy.
That leaves my HW30s regarding high-end springers.
To me Marauders are heavy, bulky, and not viable as repeaters. (Their magazines are like something out of a bubble gum machine.) Maybe an AirForce Edge or detuned Talon SS.
I love my Walther Lever Actions, but CO2 is another matter, and I shoot them differently than the single shots.
A lot of food for thought.
Michael
Michael,
From everything you said, the new Fortitude may be the ticket. Halfstep’s Urban might fit the bill as well. The magazines on the M-rod work just fine and are economical. 0% issues. The Fortitude looks to have one. Other guns coming out look to have copied them.
Michael
Here’s the thing about those China compressor’s.
They allow you to get the performance of those high-end compressor’s at a fraction of the cost. So basically that’s a way to allow people to get into pcp’s with some extra money to buy a higher dollar pcp.
What I’m saying is you get to have that quality pcp that is accurate and dependable. After all that’s what your shooting. Not the compressor. You could buy whatever you want to fill your pcp.
But with the China compressor you get to exsperiance the fast fills of a high end compressor.
I was happy with my $500 Shoebox. And I had it for about 6 years. A friend bought it for a good price to him of $300. Guess what I did. I bought a $300 China compressor. So basically I got the performance I want now from the China compressor without paying the cost.
So no the gun. Yes a edge would be nice. But if it was me I would step up to the Talon SS. They are definitely back yard friendly guns. You can adjust power up and down and even go to a different caliber barrel in a matter of minutes with just a slight reset of the scope.
So now you ready for a PCP yet?
“So now you ready for a PCP yet?”
Maybe, finally. You still gave me a lot of things to think about. :^)
Michael
Michael
As much as you like to shoot I think your missing out on the other part of air gunning.
Really the PCP is the modern day thing. Just think all the other types of air guns you can try if you get you a cheap China compressor.
Bet once you get a China compressor and your first pcp you will be glad you did that way. Cause your going to need alot of extra money to catch up the PCP guns with the other part of you collection of air guns. 🙂
Gunfun1,
I’ve been a PCP owner for years. That’s how I became soured on them, from experience. I left the Dark Side for high-end springers a couple weeks after I joined. I admit I got suckered by the “PCP and a hand pump” hype, especially since the pump-assist Benjamin butterfly pump was only six or so months away.
I’ve had a first gen. and second gen. (synthetic stock) Marauder for YEARS. I’ve put perhaps a dozen pellets through each. They still have the original factory air in ’em! Going to single-shot trays solved the lousy magazine issue. The wood one is “buh tugly” Philippine monkey pod, but the synth one is OK (and a touch lighter). The Chinese compressor might make my Marauder II a usable single shot. It was the chore of pumping that put me off.
I would detune the Marauder hammer springs for a higher shot count, so the Chinese compressor would make my Synth-Rod basically like my FWB 300s but two pounds lighter. Of course my FWB requires no filling every so many dozen shots. :^) Two more pounds of heft vs. $300 and refilling twice per session.
So, food for thought.
Michael
Michael
Definitely makes life easier with the automatic pumps.
And it’s just a drop in the bucket for the China compressor compared to how much air guns and air gun stuff costs now days.
Maybe one day you will end up with one.
Gunfun1,
I have a question I’m frankly embarrassed to ask, but here goes. How complicated assuming no operating instructions) is it to safely operate one of these (straight into the rifle)? There’s a new Chinese cheapie online right now from a U.S. seller, a model same as many others (TX brand), and the seller has a very honest description where he writes, “Not recommended for beginners.”
Michael
Michael
Very simple. It has a hose coming from the compressor like what is on a Benjamin hand pump. So if your gun has a foster male fitting on it like your Marauder has you just connect the gun. It has a bleed knob just like the Benjamin hand pump. So you close that and hit the power button, watch the gauge on the compressor and shut off when you get to the pressure you want and shut off. Bleed the air out of the gun then disconnect the gun.
It’s no different than how my Shoebox was there than my China compressor came with a pump and hose that I put in a 5 gallon bucket of water to cool while it’s pumping. And I let it run for a little bit after I shut the compressor off. The Shoebox didn’t have the water cooling on it. Basically no where to attach.
And just for some more info the looks of the compressor are pretty good. In other words the machining and making of the parts look good. Plus it does come with a liquid filled pressure gauge.
Here is a picture of mine.
Gunfun1,
Yep, that’s the one. Hmmm. I do have a birthday coming up soon. ;^)
Michael
Michael
There you go.
🙂
“the idea of a $200 PCP was a dream chasing a fantisy.”
Or how about a regulate $300 PCP?
Tyler,
Thank you for that insight. It is good to have you chime in from time to time with some in-depth comments/replies that BB might not have time to address more fully as he may wish.
Thanks,… Chris
Over the last year there has been periodic discussion of about making rifles like the MCX and the Lever Action use ejectable pellet cartridges.
Apparently Umarex was indeed listening. The new Legends Cowboy Lever Action CO2 Air Rifle is coming out this year, and it uses ejectable BB cartridges. I’m very eager to see a review by you or Dennis Adler on this one! Now when will Umarex take the next step and make the Cowboy Lever Action with a rifled barrel for pellets?
Gamo does give a 5 year warranty on the Urban. It is a Limited Warranty just as the Fortitude’s is.
Halfstep
I was just going to post that. Good for Gamo and the buyer’s.
Definitely glad to see that manufacturers are stepping up the warrenty on their guns.
I see Umarex has 3 years on the Gauntlet. Better than nothing I suppose.
Now if they would step up on parts availability, I am reluctant to spend money on things that will be a $179 paper weight if a $2 part breaks!
Red Green??? I watched his show on TV once and didn’t make it very far. And I don’t know about everybody listening. I’ve actually found that it is quite hard to get people’s attention, even those you think should be interested. As for manufacturers, they certainly listen to Tom Gaylord. Otherwise, I’ll believe it when I see the cheap, quality, multi-shot springer to replace the void filled by IZH 61. We got to be doing better out there, team. The multi-shot breakbarrel is a start, but we can do more. I’ve got no complaints about Leapers which has given me nothing but outstanding service and products. One of their scopes sits proudly atop my Anschutz target rifle, and I don’t want anything better.
And, on the subject of listening, I can say that I myself am reaping the benefits of the sharpening series. My King Ice Bear 8000 grit stone has arrived. I thought my 6000 grit stone was smooth, but this is at another level. Smoother than the proverbial baby’s bottom. There are no words to describe… The stage is set with preliminary sharpening of my knives, and they are all set to try out the Ice Bear.
On another subject, ChrisUSA, you were right about my dubious shooting protege. I have learned that he’s got some problems. His mother said that he doesn’t bathe for weeks and months and wonders if there is a psychological problem. I never noticed this myself, but it is a dead ringer for the scene in the Mel Brooks film, High Anxiety. Harvey Corman, trying to disavow his former evil boss, Cloris Leachman, says, “I didn’t like her. She never bathed.” And there are other things too. The guy did not complete high school because of his refusal to do homework. That will cut into your career options. Since he won’t go to school, and he won’t pay rent for his room, he is out of the house and currently homeless. Then I bumped into him the other day, and he told me that he’s buying a car!? Why? To sleep in, for one, and to open up “possibilities.” And he’s all excited to go shooting again! Whoa. His parents said that it all started at age 14 when he decided that he didn’t need to follow any rules. Yikes. I won’t be taking him out to the range any time soon. So, real life is not always like the blog where gorgeous, church-going women are eager to be taught how to shoot. 🙂
Matt61
Matt61,
That has been awhile. I am sorry your good efforts were to no avail. At the least, perhaps you will have left a beneficial lasting impression that he will realize down his (what would seem to be) a rather bumpy upcoming road.
I have done the same sort of thing in the past and rarely does it seem to work out. Being older, I think I would have better insight as to what (who) to take on and who to take a pass on. At least you tried and that is what counts.
Chris
Interesting article, B.B., thanks!
Also, I had not picked up on that new Fortitude. It looks really interesting. I like traditional wood stocks, but this model has a pretty good look to it, and it’s very light weight. I suppose it would be too much to ask for a shorter, carbine, version?! Anyway, I’ll be very interested to see a report on this one.
Dennis
Folks,
While we are talking about the Fortitude and Listening. “Crosman” I been doing some thinking and talking around here and this is what I hope is going on.
There are two main things that make a great PCP the trigger and the barrel the rest is important but has been figured out and under cost control if done with the best available designs. The valve and regulator need to be reliable. The barrel needs to be multi-pellet friendly. The trigger needs to be adjustable to meet the customers taste.
1. If the trigger is a two stage adjustable, Crosman has them on the shelf so great.
2. THE barrel THE BARREL. I have been hearing rumors that Crosman has developed a new hammer forged barrel for the Marauder not the Maximus barrel if so that is the barrel for the Fortitude. Although why offer a L/W barrel for the Marauder if you have a new hammer forged barrel in house???? I think the Fortitude is using the Marauder barrel so if that is the case offer it with the new hammer forged barrel both in .177 and .22. If that is not the case then offer it with the L/W barrel as an option and put the L/W barrel on the parts list so we can upgrade if we are not satisfied.
Oh and while I am at it set it up option with a breach for the .25 Green Mountain barrel. Why is the breach different than the Marauder (see screw holes).
The trigger is not as critical: as long as other Crosman two stage triggers will be a direct fit.
I hope the reason the Fortitude is set back on the sell date is because they are listening. This gun has a chance to be a tipping point on the PCP market lets hope THEY get it right. My friend said it might be June before it comes out.
What is left: superb accuracy, regulated and a two stage adjustable trigger for $300. There is not much more to ask.
OK I can ask for one more thing while I am on my soap box, offer it as a Multi-Pump. I will take one in each caliber and one each PCP and Multi-Pump. If in .25 caliber that makes six I will buy.
Don
Benji-Don
Reading all you said sounds pretty much like what I would say about the Fortitude and a multi-pump too.
But really only two thinks I want is a .25 caliber multi-pump based on the Marauder. And I want the Fortitude to be offered in .25 caliber.
Well I guess I forgot. One more thing with both guns I mentioned. A accurate gun.
And a nice trigger would be good. But in reality I can shoot just about any trigger good. I actually get better the more time I spend with a gun. And for right now I’m just happy that Crosman jumped into the ball game with the Fortitude. At least now those other guns that have already been released that is direct competition to the Fortitude can’t do anything but sit back and watch. Their egg done hatched if you know what I mean. Crosman can just set back and change this or that if they want. In otherwords. The egg ain’t hatched yet for the Fortitude. Time will tell if it’s a ugly duckling or a eagle after it hatch’s. But I bet it’s sure got the competition wondering what’s inside that egg. 🙂
GF1,
Ok from Tyler’ s response the Fortitude trigger is the Maximus trigger. That is not a deal breaker as you said. There are options on the trigger.
So now it boils down to the barrel and what options will be available. That is going to make or break the gun.
I like the simplicity of a multi-pump one shot per pumps. Options would be a magazine and or a shroud. Assuming it has an accurate barrel.
If the Fortitude has a 3000 psi fill and the tube is the same as the 13xx then it can be advertised as a supersonic gun with lead pellets. Who cares if it is a 100 pound pump effort and 15-20 pumps. I will be happy with 800 fps at 6-8 pumps. The pump system is already available on the older crosman multi-pumps, same tube.
I don’t know what features from the Marauder you want on a multi-pump. The tuning may not be valuable on a multi-pump. Or do you want multiple shots on a fill like the FX Independence.
Don
Benji-Don
Multiple pumps for one shot in .25 caliber with a shrouded barrel. A breech that accepts a rotary magazine or a single shot tray. And the pump tube the diameter of a Marauder air resivoir tube.
Oh and the 1300 series pump guns have a smaller diameter tube than a Discovery or Maximus air resivoir tube. The 2200 serious guns have the same diameter tube as a Discovery or Maximus. The Fortitude air resivoir tube looks to be the same size of the Maximus and Discovery air resivoir tube.
GF1,
Ok that all makes sense. I thought I checked the Maximus tube against the std crosman pumpers but your memory is better than mine. I guess it was just smaller than the Benjamin pumpers.
I will take a multi-pump with your criteria any day as long as it has a good barrel that is replaceable as we have talked about.
Don
GF1,
I forgot to say I think a smaller tube with a longer stroke would be easier to pump. I will add a few more stokes for less force on the pump handle. That also gives the potential for high velocities when desired.
Don
Benji-Don
Yep my whole purpose of wanting a multi-pump is to be able to control velocity for different pesting situations. And definitely with a .25 caliber pellet.
And maybe I’m thinking wrong. But I like the idea of a bigger piston and a long stroke. Remember the big block Oldsmobile 455’s. Big bore and long stroke equal big cubic inches or in other words more air volume per stroke to compress.
So I think with that set up the gun may only need 4 pumps to achieve maximum velocity. And maybe only one or two pumps for lower velocity’s. I think that way you would not need 8 or 10 pumps to to fill the air valve like with a shorter stroke and smaller bore size like your talking. No math genius here but I have definitely had my share of different race cars through the years and learned very quickly that a engine in a car is nothing more than a big air pump.
All I can say is like you. If they build it I will for sure buy one and try it.
” the idea of a bigger piston and a long stroke” Your talking more pumping effort too, that may be able to be negated by a longer pump arm though, but things have practical limits.
DanLK
Yep everything has a balance.
Adding to the wish list of gf1 and Don in the form of a question. Can the air tank of the gauntlet be removed and installed while it is filled like some Airforce models? That would be desireable and the gauntlet looks like it may be possible.
Gerald
Gerald,
I hope to test a Gauntlet soon. Then we will see.
B.B.
Gerald
The bottle on the Gauntlet can be removed. But you don’t need to remove it to fill it. There is a Foster male fitting on the opposite side to the bottles gauge. So just hook up and fill.
Gunfun1
Thanks for replying to my comment so I got notice of it. The comments RSS function does not work with my tablet that I most often use to keep up with the blog.
I know that there is a foster fill fitting where you said it is because it looks just like my 13 cu. in. Air Venturi bottle. I would like to know if I could remove the Gauntlet’s bottle and screw on my filled AV bottle to get about twice as many shots before I grab the hand pump and top off both air bottles? If that is the case, it would cement my choice of what to get next.
Gerald
Gerald
Yep. The manual for the Gauntlet says they include a tool of some sort with that allows you to switch tanks even if their full if I remember right.
Pull up the Gauntlet on the Pyramyd AIR site and there should be a place highlighted with blue letters that says owners manual if I remember right. Click on it and you can download the manual. Then you can check it out. I might not be 100% accurate on my remembering. 🙂
GF1
Just going by memory, but it seems like I remember reading that the Gauntlet comes with a degassing tool which must be used before removing the bottle. But I guess that wouldn’t effect the bottle itself as to weather it had to be empty.
Geo
That’s why I mentioned to Gerald to check the manual and such. What Mike posted below is what I remembered.
Participant,
My $0.02 input is that swapping out air tanks is fine on paper. My concern about doing it would be regarding the possibility of introducing dirt into the rifle while swapping the tanks and the wear and tear of the seals and screws.
Siraniko
Siraniko
I have the same bottle on my QB79 and use it also for my Steel Storm setup for HPA.
The bottle is meant to be swapped out easily.
I have the Air Venturi bottle and no degassing is required to switch bottles. The bottle has ball check valve.
Now on the Gauntlet it uses a Ninja brand bottle which does look the same as the Air Venturi bottle. But they may not use the same ball check valve on the Ninja bottle like Air Venturi uses. So maybe that’s why the release tool is needed. I don’t necessarily think it’s a degassing tool. And as it goes. I don’t have the Gauntlet in hand to no for sure.
Gunfun1,
The Air Venturi Bottle is listed with the Gauntlet as compatible.
/product/av-3000psi-13ci-tank-valve-1100psi-set?a=7882
Mike
Mike
Yep I knew it was. But I just didn’t know if the Air Venturi bottle had the same check valve as the Ninja bottle.
The reason saying is I don’t have to wait for my Air Venturi bottle to be low on charge to unscrew it from my QB79 or my Steel Storm HPA adapter. It does have a little bit of pressure when your unscrewing it. But then it does a little release of air then it’s easy.
So the degassing tool or whatever it is that comes with the Gauntlet makes me want to know if it’s the gun design or the Ninja bottle for the need of that tool. In other words I’m guessing that the Air Venturi bottle may or may not need that tool to change the air Venturi bottle on the Gauntlet.
Gunfun1,
That I do not know, perhaps someone using the Gauntlet can give us the strait dope on that.
Mike
Mike
Agree there.
Gunfun1,
I found a video showing the degas process, I think it is only degassing the gun’s airtube and valve because when he takes the tank off the needle on the tank shows positive pressure. If you just remove the bottle you will get a blast of 1000 psi air.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb6sRDGJq-Q&feature=youtu.be&t=341
Springrrrr over on GTA posted the Gauntlet Schematic over here
https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?PHPSESSID=76945a8c8572ae02179e8d1555701fd7&topic=136083.msg1360200#msg1360200
Mike
Mike
The GTA site pulled up but couldn’t get the schematic to load on my phone.
But did watch the video. And yep that’s what I figured was going on. Basically let the air out that’s stored in the Gauntlets valve. Then the bottle unscrews. Letting the air out of the gun seals the check valve on the bottle then. So no air is released from the bottle when you understand screw it.
So would be very easy to change to a new full bottle out in the feild.
unscrew it.
Not understand screw it. Yep my phone again.
LOL. Nice phone 😉
Mike
Yep the stupid spell check. Have to disable it at times. It resets itself some how.
And I don’t know until that happens. Always comes up with something at the wrong time it seems.
And I really do like my phone most of the time. It’s just it’s little games it likes to play at times is kind of agrivating. 🙂
Fortunately I understood what you meant, my brain has a spell un-checker for those silly phone bugs.
Mike
Yep know what you mean.
🙂
I took gf1’s sugestion and read the Gauntlet user manual. It does require that you degass the cylinder before it is removed. It does not specify but they would want you to install the fresh bottle empty and then fill it. I was hoping that was not the case. To have the ability to refill with a full tank swap, I will have to look at something else like an Airforce with the spin lock tank.
Gerald
Gerald,
From the Umarex web site “NEAR SILENT
The Gauntlet’s 3,000 psi air tank is easily filled using the built-in, standard Foster quick connect fitting. For extended shooting sessions, a simple pressure release key (included) allows the compact regulated tank to be unscrewed when pressure is low. It can be replaced with another, fully charged PCP tank for extended shooting periods, without the need to carry bulky HPA tanks or a hand pump. Its fully moderated design means the Gauntlet is incredibly quiet. Both stealthy backyard plinkers and serious hunters benefit from its ability to provide rapid, near-silent, full-power follow-up shots.” https://www.umarexusa.com/products/umarex-gauntlet
I read thru the Q and A at Pyramyd AIR on the Gauntlet and got conflicting information as well.
But from the Umarex site it seems you can install a charged tank.
Mike
Mike
That’s the way I remembered it from what you just showed from Umarex.
Gerald
Read Mike’s reply below from Umarex. That’s the way I remember it.
Thanks Mike
That is the information I wanted to know. Coming strait from the horses mouth gives it credibility. To put on a full air tank is a feature I can see being quite useful. Some other makers offer this at a much higher price point.
Gerald
Gerald,
You are welcome.
Mike
For those unfamiliar with Red Green:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T53iB0zxsto
Full episodes always have something creatively ridiculous done with duct tape.
One of the truest phrases I have ever heard uttered was regularly featured in the show, usually after he has repaired or built something: “This is only temporary… Unless it works.”
Nowhere
Lots of funny lines.
Thanks for this by the way it is nice to know that some people care enough about what they are doing to take advice from others with experience or who at least use it correctly. Also it is nice to see that someone is very active in what he loves and has inspired others with new ideas and products for everyone’s benefits. Where do you go, by the way, to get to these conventions where you can talk to people who make these product.
W8dude,
Welcome to the blog.
B.B.
P.S.,
This show in in Las Vegas and is the largest of its type.
B.B.