Walther LGV Challenger: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Walther LGV breakbarrel air rifle
Walther’s LGV Challenger breakbarrel was a short-run success in 2013.

History of airguns

This report covers:

I have been thinking about doing this report for several years. The Walther LGV Challenger is an air rifle that went extinct just after I reported on it in 2013. There was an entire range of modern LGVs. Many had wood stocks and upgraded features and they are all gone now, but it was the Challenger in its black synthetic stock that caught my eye at the 2013 SHOT Show.

The one I am reporting today retailed for $566.10 in 2013. Others in the line went up into the $600s.

The first LGVs

There was an old LGV, of course. Several of them, in fact. They represented Walther’s high-water mark in the 1970s with breakbarrel recoiling spring-piston target rifles, coming at the end of a long line of developments in that field. They were contemporary with the LGR Universal I tested for you last month.

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 10-22-10-01-Walther-LGV-Olympia Walther LGV Olympia was a top-quality 10 meter target rifle from the 1970s. The weather cooperated yesterday and gave me a perfect day at the range, so I was able to shoot the Walther LGV Olympia at 50 yards. I also shot the Talon SS with the 1:22" twist barrel before the wind kicked up and stopped all airgun shooting, so I'm on the way to the final test of the different twist rates. I knew the LGV Olympia was never going to hit the target, no matter what I did to the rear sight, so I placed two 3-inch bulls on a 2-foot by 4-foot piece of target paper and used them for sighting. The shots landed far below these bulls, of course. How far is an eye-opener, so I took a picture of it so you could see. 06-22-13-01-Walther-LGV-Olympia-50-yard-groups The pellets landed about 18-inches below the aim point at 50 yards. The sights had the pellets hitting the center of the target at 25 yards, so this is how far they drop in the second 25 yards. Notice that the center of the group of JSB Exact Jumbos on the right is about 2 inches lower than the center of the RWS Superdomes on the left. I fully expected this to happen, so I stapled the bullseye targets to a huge piece of target paper, so the pellet holes would show. Knowing they could well go to the same point I used two separate bullseyes as aim point, and from the picture you can see that was a good idea. I selected the two best pellets from the 25-yard test for this. They were the JSB Exact Heavy, which was the best pellet at 25 yards, and the RWS Superdome that took second place. I shot off a sandbag with the rifle rested on the flat of my hand in the classic artillery hold. The flight time of both pellets was extreme. Although I couldn't see them in flight, the flight time told me they were dropping rapidly as they moved downrange. JSB Exact Heavy The first pellet I tried was the 10.34-grain JSB Exact Heavy. It is far too heavy for the LGV Olympia powerplant, but in the 25-yard test 10 Exact Jumbos went into a group that measures 0.354-inches between centers. So a novice might expect that since the range was doubled, the group size would be as well. That would give us something like a 0.70-inch group for this pellet. 06-22-13-02-Walther-LGV-Olympia-50-yard-group-with-JSB-Exact-Heavy The 50-yard group was larger than expected. Ten JSB Exact heavys went into 2.285-inches What I actually got was 2.283-inches between the centers of the two pellets that were farthest apart. Thats roughly 6 times larger than the 25-yard group and more than 3 times the expected size, if you simply try to extrapolate from 25 yards to 50 yards. This is why you have to be careful when making generalizations about accuracy. The shooting conditions were perfect for this test. There was no breeze to speak of and if I felt something I always waited it out. I also had no shots that were called as anything but perfect. So what you see here represents the best I was able to do with the LGV Olympia at 50 yards with this JSB pellet. RWS Superdome The second-best pellet at 25 yards was the RWS Superdome that gave me a 10-shot group measuring 0.695 inches. Multiply that by 6 and you get an anticipated group size of 4.17-inches. I'm doing that because of what happened with the JSB Exact Jumbos. 06-22-13-03-Walther-LGV-Olympia-50-yard-group-with-RWS-Superdomes RWS Superdomes opened up even more than JSB Exact Jumbos. This group measures 3.062-inches between centers. What Superdomes actually did was put 10 shots into 3.062-inches -- so it was better than predicted (if you use the 6-times predictor) but was certainly much larger than simply double the 25-yard group size. The lesson here is that group size does not simply increase linearly with distance. We hear that all the time. If a certain gun shoots 1-inch at 100 yards we say it should shoot 2 inches at 200 yards. I'm saying that rarely happens. Usually the group will open faster as the distance increases. Not always, but usually. Evaluation The Walther LGV Olympia is a remarkable airgun. Out to 25 yards it is extremely accurate, plus it is very easy to cock and quiet to shoot. Beyond 25 yards, though, the LGV Olympia quickly gets outside its comfort zone. There just isn't enough power pushing the pellet to hold the group size to what you might expect. These results are consistent with the results I got when shooting the FWB 300S at 50 yards. Installing a scope helped, but only marginally. So I'm not going to put a scope on this rifle. I'm satisfied with this test and that's as far as I'm going in this test.
Walther LGV OLympia.

Why the Challenger?

My LGV Challenger has several features that I like. It is quite accurate. It is easy to cock — at least for the first part of the stroke. It is .22 caliber, which makes it easier to load. The pivot joint is very tight which contributes to the accuracy — or at least we all feel that it does. And it has a barrel lock that helps keep the breech sealed tight. It shoots most pellets well, which makes it a real plus for the guy who doesn’t have a lot of different brands on hand.

Walther LGV Challenger breakbarrel air rifle barrel lock
Challenger barrel lock

The barrel lock makes the breech very tight.

The bad points

The LGV Challenger is not perfect, however. It has a slight buzz when it fires. In 2013 I could tolerate it, but in this day of Tune in a Tube there is no longer any reason to put up with it. It also has fiberoptic sights—boo! But I found they don’t gather light too well and they look dark when shooting — yea! The muzzle is threaded for an add-on silencer, which is next to useless with a spring piston rifle that generates all its noise in the powerplant. Still, it is there for those who want it.

Walther LGV Challenger breakbarrel air rifle rear sight
Fiberoptic sights!

Walther LGV Challenger breakbarrel air rifle threaded muzzle
A threaded muzzle — your call.

The rifle was advertised as having a match trigger. It does not. While the vintage LGV really did have a match trigger, just saying it doesn’t make it so. When are the marketing departments going to realize that calling something “match” only draws attention to it and makes everyone scrutinize it more closely? The second stage of the trigger on the LGV Challenger is somewhat creepy.

Power

The power is just under 11 foot-pounds. When I learned that in the last test I said, Ten years ago, that would be a suicide marketing venture, because the 1,000 f.p.s. mark was considered the gold standard (and 800 in .22). Today, we know better, and I’m here to tell you — this is a seriously classic air rifle. I can see a long and successful life ahead for the new LGV series, as long as it holds up in the accuracy department.”

Well — I was wrong. It was accurate, but the entire line was discontinued in about 18 months. I was so sorry to see what had the potential to become a time-honored classic disappear. You know FWB tried to resurrect the success of their 124 in the new FWB Sport and they missed the mark, but Umarex was sitting on a potential icon and they killed it. Well — I got mine!

This report

So, this will be a traditional report with a couple things added. I will inject Tune in a Tube into the mainspring to quiet the action and I will attempt to adjust the trigger to be crisper. At 1 lb. 10 oz. it’s light enough — just a little creepy. I will quiet the spring before testing the velocity — just so we know.

I tested the rifle out to 50 yards last time. That proved to be a bit too far, but at 25 yards it was really good.

Summary

What we have in the Walther LGV Challenger is a modern air rifle that has transitioned over to the historical section. If you sometimes wish you had been around when airguns like the FWB 124 and the Hakim were available, this is your chance to turn back the clock.

91 thoughts on “Walther LGV Challenger: Part 1

  1. B.B.,

    My LGV Challenger, which I bought new back in 2013, is identical to yours except it is in .177. It has always had much more than the slight buzz yours has. Mine buzzes more than any other spring air gun I have ever had, and I have owned just under 200 of them. It actually is somewhere between a loud (and long lasting) buzz, a twang and a goose-like honk. It also vibrates like crazy. It is pretty accurate, however.

    Some of the LGVs were smooth, but I have watched videos of a couple online that are wrecks like mine. I wonder about the QC at Walther at that time.

    I’ve developed a theory about those which, like mine, buzz, twang and honk. I believe the piston, which is merely threaded on, might be loose in there. Please make a point of checking yours.

    Michael



    • B.B.,

      Thank you. And thanks for holding off. I feel I got a good deal for such a clean-looking one with box, and I know shooting it will be fun. Now I need to get some #6 Birdshot 12 gauge shotshells. Hey, have you ever sniped at the caps in emptied shotshells in search of a blast with a pellet gun?

      I’m curious. Did you try steel shot in addition to the traditional lead with your Sharpshooters? Obviously that would introduce the ricochet factor, but I am interested in how the velocity will likely improve, and what that might mean for the Sharpshooter’s effective range. :^)

      Perhaps I could chrony (or try to) steel shot and try the Sharpshooter at, gasp, 4 or 5 yards. What if when shot rested on a bag the humble pistol comes close to the neighborhood (gated community?) of the mighty Avanti 499?

      Perhaps a guest paragraph tacked on to one of your reports could be permitted? ;^)

      Michael




      • Michael,

        Sure seems like you got a good deal. Not only the box but paperwork and speedloader included.

        Not sure where you live but here in Colorado most stores have 12 gauge trap loads in #6 filling the shelves.


        • Kevin,

          My uncle is 91 now, but he used to hunt every bird in season, and I remember learning about different sizes of shot from him. He had a steel cabinet locked up in his garage just filled with 12 gauge and 410 shotgun shells, .22 long rifle and whatever he used in his deer hunting rifle. I doubt he bothered with weather stripping and desiccant and all of that.

          He had probably just 4 guns, his rifle, a .22, a single shot 410, and an over-under 12 gauge, all locked in a hallway closet. No handguns that I know of, especially given that he grew up in and lived his whole life in a town in where people left the doors unlocked 24/365, even if they went down to Florida for a couple weeks in the winter. They figured that if they locked the house up, how would the neighbors get in if they needed to for some emergency?

          Michael


        • Kevin,

          I’m very happy with the price. One of the first lessons in setting up an online auction is don’t have it end early in the morning, especially on a weekend, or in the middle of the night during the work/school week.

          Michael


      • I can say I have shot at primers.

        DON’T DO IT!!!!!

        Being a reloader, my dad started me off reloading very young.
        We would use the spent shotgun primers as slingshot ammo.

        When you would use them in a sling shot as the used primer flew through the air, the air would pass over the flash hole and cause a whistling sound every time it rotated into the wind.

        The next natural step was to put a live primer into a empty Shot shell, and tape the shell to a board and shoot the primer.

        Using a Benjamin 312, in .22, When I connected the pellet with the primer it did fire, and it launched itself out of the shell and right between me and a friend standing side by side.

        I do not suggest doing that.

        I don’t know the velocity it launches at, nor would I care to try to chronograph that.

        Ian.


        • Ian,

          Yikes! I am pretty nervous around anything that goes boom, as I am not a firearm guy. I am also fearful of ricochets, and while that is not a ricochet, the result is potentially just as bad or worse.

          Thanks for the warning.

          Michael


  2. B.B.,

    I often wondered why Umarex stopped making the Walther LGV Challenger.

    They also dropped the Walther Century GT which was sold in Europe. As far as I can tell it was the same rifle as the LGV Challenger, but with a longer muzzle weight and came with a Walther ZF 6x42AO scope instead of open sights.

    The muzzle weight did have a dovetail and the breech block was drilled on top, so it looked like it could be fitted with open sights, if any were available for it.

    The Century GT was available as a 12 ft lb model in .22 and up to 17 ft lb in .177. It was a smooth shooter, very accurate, great value and hailed as an instant classic. It sold like hotcakes, but was suddenly discontinued for no reason that I can fathom.

    Anyone have an idea why it was dropped?


    • Bob,

      The sales were dismal. They were too expensive for what you get. Just last year you could still buy some of these for brand new, new old stock that is. This was priced like the TX200, but is not in the same class.

      The FWB Sport has the same problem.


      • RidgeRunner,

        You shot the tack on the head. They were very expensive, and that was also at a time when a small handful of pretty nice, affordable PCPs were hitting the market.

        The saving grace of my LGV Challenger was that I bought it new for a clearance price from an authorized Umarex retailer. It’s like the old joke: “The food here is awful, but at least they give you big portions.” It twangs like a banjo, but it sure was cheap!

        Michael


        • Michael,

          I remember when the price dropped out of these, but by then I had heard of issues that did not really impress me enough to get one.

          In fact, that is how I ended up with my Webley/Hatsan Tomahawk. I bought one for just a few dollars more than the cost of the scope I bought with it. Fantastic deal. The scope has become my favorite and the Tomahawk has a beautiful walnut stock. I could literally just pitch it over the hill and not be out very much at all.


        • Michael,

          On the topic of PCPs, I recall noticing that the Walther Rotex RM8 is sold in the US (as the Rotek RM8) for about double the price it is sold in Europe.

          Methinks Umarex USA did not do themselves any favours with their pricing strategy of the Walther range.



            • Chris,

              Ugh. I’m with you regarding Big Pharma. Any small margins they endure abroad they make up for by gouging us here in the U.S.

              Warning. I’m getting up on my soapbox, but this isn’t really political as BOTH parties are equally to blame. First, an analogy: Walmart is by far the largest toy retailer in the world, so even big toy manufacturers find they MUST accept what Walmart dictates it will pay them wholesale. Walmart has all the leverage.

              If you add up all pharmaceuticals paid for by the V.A, paid for by the Pentagon, paid for by the federal gov’t for active federal employees, paid for by the federal gov’t for retired federal employees, paid for by Medicaid and paid for by Medicare, that must easily come to the biggest source of U.S. sales for any pharmaceutical company. With that kind of leverage, the federal gov’t should be able to say to Bristol-Myers Squibb, “$7 per Eliquis caplet? Uh, NO. We pay for 35% [made up stat] of your total sales in this country. Therefore, you will charge us $1 per caplet, and you will still enjoy a respectable margin. Meeting over.”

              If the two parties in Washington represented our interests all of the time, that is what would happen. The reason that doesn’t happen is simple: campaign and super Pac contributions (i.e. bribes). Companies such as Bristol-Myers Squibb donate to ALL congressmen, senators, and presidential candidates, Democrats and Republicans.

              More than any other factor, that is why our federal government does not ever work as well as it should for We the People. We Americans deserve so much better.

              O.K., off of the soapbox now.

              Michael


              • Micheal,

                Well, Mr.T did make a few advances on that front recently and is trying to do more. I think it was diabetic and epee-pen related stuff, but it was a start. Yes, it is a shame.

                My soapbox is in the shop right now,.. which is probably a good thing. 😉

                Chris


                • Chris,

                  Mr. T! Before Rocky III was made and he became famous, Mr. T was a minor local legend by being a bodyguard for Leon Spinks and bouncing certain nightclubs. Stallone first knew of him from watching a cable junk sport special called something like “The World’s Greatest Bouncer Competition.”

                  In 1978 or 1979 I watched Mr. T, working Security, break up a fight two rows ahead of me at a Judas Priest concert at the old Chicago International Amphitheater on South Halstead.

                  Good times.

                  Michael




                    • D’OH!

                      It just dawned on me that you meant president Trump. (That’s right, isn’t it?) I swear, I thought you meant Mr. T. He was active in health causes a while back when he almost died from some illness. I figured maybe he was an activist or something.

                      GAAH. I feel a little embarrassed. Frankly, I don’t follow specific politicians very much, especially the past few months. Is Trump going to be on TV tonight?

                      Michael


                  • Michael,

                    “D’OH!

                    It just dawned on me that you meant president Trump. (That’s right, isn’t it?) I swear, I thought you meant Mr. T. He was active in health causes a while back when he almost died from some illness. I figured maybe he was an activist or something.

                    GAAH. I feel a little embarrassed. Frankly, I don’t follow specific politicians very much, especially the past few months. Is Trump going to be on TV tonight?

                    Michael”

                    Insert: (rolling eye emoji)



                • Chris,

                  Yes, I do. Two or three days ago I started to feel more like myself, finally. I might try walking down the street tomorrow, taking it easy, but feeling a little activity out.

                  My mom is still not so good, although slightly better than a week ago. Her shortness of breath is the issue.

                  Michael


            • Chris,

              I know what you mean. I’ve been working in pharma for 20 years now, most of it in generics. I’m a chemical engineer and hate the marketing crooks with a passion.


      • R.R.,

        That’s interesting as here in Europe the Century GT bundle was very competitively priced. It could be had for as little as the equivalent of about $300.

        Operation was reported to be smooth and silent unlike what I am reading about the LGV Challenger. Many reviewers said the Century GT felt like a tuned air rifle straight out of the box.

        Giles Barry did a nice video review of it in 2017 and was very impressed with its performance.


        • Bob,

          Back in late 2013 I bought my brand new Walther LGV Challenger when retailers were trying to “unload” them, so I recall paying around $300 for it. Most online reviewers of the LGV wrote about how smooth and quiet it was. I think many LGVs, especially those that were picked from the assembly line specifically to go to reviewers, were indeed smooth and quiet. But a significant minority of them were not smooth-shooting or quiet. In the United States we refer to products such as that as “lemons.”

          Many folks used to feel that one should try to avoid buying automobiles that were assembled on either a Friday, when workers have their minds on the weekend, or Mondays, when workers are hung over. Today that does not apply, because robots don’t go out drinking on weekends! ;^)

          Perhaps my LGV was assembled during Oktoberfest.

          Michael


          • Michael,

            Sorry to hear you got sold a lemon.

            It’s disappointing to learn that Walther LGV quality is so hit and miss.

            When that range was released back in 2013 it seemed the most exciting advance in springer technology in decades.

            Maybe it was too good to be true after all.


            • Bob,

              I think the “new” LGV really had only two technological developments, one of which was actually developed by Air Arms. Walther borrowed the circular, disc shaped catch for the piston instead of the traditional hook. Also, they had that linkage and other innards inside the trigger module instead of just outside of it, if that makes sense. Unfortunately, the piston is merely screwed on instead of secured, so there is nothing to prevent it from loosening. No nut, no Loctite, just a tightening and a prayer.

              It was under warranty, but Umarex USA just shipped it back to me and wrote that it was performing properly and that “all magnum springers vibrate, buzz and twang” (or something very close to that). I still have that note. That is an unacceptable response because a) not all magnums do that, b) the LGV Challenger is not a magnum and c) not all LGV Challengers do that.

              What the note really implied was, Umarex USA doesn’t honor its warranty against manufacturing defects. So much for American business ethics and German engineering and craftsmanship.

              Michael


              • Michael,

                Screwed in only is interesting. In theory, the force of the piston hitting a air wall, rebounding and then going forwards,… would constantly keep it screwed in.

                Was there known issues of the piston (actually) backing out?

                Chris


                • Chris,

                  That I couldn’t say. Plus, I am not sure if that is why mine is a cross between a banjo and a Canada Goose. It could be some other issue entirely.

                  I remember when I used to be on the Yellow forum a bunch of others discussed it periodically. For all I know, Walther might have quietly corrected it at some point, too.

                  Michael


  3. BB,

    Thanks for a close up of the front glowy thingy sight. All of these years I had thought these sights could be changed out for the better sights on other LGV models. I never could understand why they did not put the best target rifle stock together with the best target sights.

    The LGV line died out because they were too expensive, most especially since as Michael points out they had quality control issues, plus the “exaggerations” of the marketeers concerning things such as the trigger, etc. With a price tag like that, it had better be the absolute top shelf sproinger. That was in the TX200 MKIII price range.

    Also, even today so many are still looking for the “holy grail” sproinger that will give them the velocities of Gamo with the accuracy of 10 meter air rifles, only at 100 yards and a seven year old can easily cock it. Who cares about the laws of physics.

    I wanted one. I did not get one. I am glad. I would have been disappointed.



    • RidgeRunner,

      Hank’s comment below got me thinking. Do you have a vintage FWB 124? Mine is the perfect springer, and not just for a plinker like me. It is a genuinely mid-powered air rifle, in the same ballbark as the LGV Challenger, but it is lightweight, cocks with little effort for its power, has a world class trigger, is world class accurate, and they go for about what an Air Arms springer goes for new.

      Plus, it is a true heirloom air gun, right up there with your Webleys in that regard.

      Michael


      • Michael,

        No, I do not have a FWB 124. The problem is there are really soooo many real nice old airguns out there. Once upon a time everybody was concerned with accuracy, not speed and power. I cannot have ALL of them. 🙂

        As for the Webleys, they are unique in design. That is why I have a couple. Shooting wise they are really not that impressive, just fun. Now a couple of my other “ten yard” air rifles are pinpoint accurate at twenty-five yards. They are not very powerful, but I can humanely take a feral soda can with them at 35-40 yards every time.


  4. This is in reference to yesterday’s visitor to my ten yard airgun range.

    Chris,

    LOL! No, that ain’t no feral soda can fer sur! They are really quite shy unless they become too used to humans, then they can be quite a nuisance. My dog gave chase and treed it just over the hill, giving me the photo op.

    I would guess he was a young adult, perhaps in the 150 – 200 pound range.

    Shootski,

    No, he did not find the honey. As he came out of the woods, he had my dog’s full attention. When he turned as if to go, my dog was off like a shot and so was he.

    Kathy was sooooo pissed. The loves bears. Yesterday was her birthday and I had given her a bear birthday card that morning. She had just gone inside for something and missed seeing it come out into the yard. She was thankful I was able to take some pictures. This is about the fifth one we have seen around the house since we have been living here.


    • RidgeRunner,

      Do carry a light when you, both of you, go out of the house at night! Red or greenish and ROUND will light up if looking at you. But you probably have known that all your life. I hope they will provide Kathy and you lots of entertainment. Tell her for me that shootski does not ever hunt Black Bear!

      shootski


      • Shootski,

        She will be glad to hear that. She does not like bear hunters.

        I carry a Bushnell rechargeable flashlight that is incredibly bright. It will clearly light up the woods for about one hundred yards and light up eyes at over two hundred yards. It is brighter than the high beams on my pickup. You do not look into this thing.



  5. Wondered what happened to the LGV line as it looked like an interesting rifle from a company that (usually) makes decent products. I have a FWB 124 so I wasn’t in the market for a breakbarrel but I remember thinking that they were over priced.

    Seems that some times companies decide to go for a “greedy grab” hoping for high profits from minimum sales over a short run rather than having a long term product that becomes a classic.

    Walther did the same thing with their Dominator 1250 – a high power PCP repeater – all in all it’s a half decent rifle but it wasn’t designed to be a classic. I shoot mine regularly (got it as a “guest gun” at a very good price), it’s OK but definitely not in the same class as my HW 100 which was similarly priced at the time.

    Guess that type of marketing works on people because you see it all the time.

    Happy Monday!

    Hank


  6. An off topic observation and question here.

    I was researching a future article and was digging through the archives of the blog here.

    While reading a few from 2009, I saw very few names That I see here now.

    I have been a long time lurker (read that as a reader that never posted a comment.)
    But I didn’t start commenting or asking questions until about the 2010 timeframe. And even then, it was a question, as I didn’t feel qualified to add any meaningful input on a subject, and any question was submitted anonymously as logging in to post was not required back then.

    So the question.
    How long have you been a reader, and a commentator?
    Inquiring minds want to know?

    Cheers!
    45Bravo.


    • 45,

      One of my earliest receipts from PA shows 11/2014 which would be very close to when I hit the blog on a regular basis, meaning earlier. I commented from the start (more like,.. asked a bunch of questions). GF1 stuck with me and led me down the dark and treacherous slippery slope. 😉

      Chris


      • Chris
        Well much obliged. 🙂

        And in reality we have all taught each of all of us something here on the blog throughout time.

        And I think probably around 2010 or 11 is when I started commenting. My first modern air gun was from PA and it was a Discovery. What is funny is I started out on the dark side with the modern airguns. Then I switched to springers and then back to pcps and the pumpers and all the modding. After that it was all over with. I got whatever I could get my hands on if it was a airgun. 🙂 And still going strong today. 😉



    • 45Bravo,

      B.B. may have all the registered user data available.

      I “lost” B.B. after the Airgun Magazine shut down after being a member of the Airgun Newsletter and Edith and his Old Online Forum when they were in Ellicott City. I was not a regular buyer of PA products until a few years, perhaps five, ago. I saw B.B.’s writing in the PA catalog and started reading the blog.

      shootski


    • 45Bravo

      Six years now and I read this blog everyday. There are lots of enablers here but I do miss quite a few like Reb and also a guy in Russia (I think his handle started with letter D).

      Deck


      • Deck,

        Reb had some health issues and I fear he is no longer with us but I would love it if he was lurking out there and would prove me wrong!
        As for Duskwight, he was working on his own version of a Whiscomb, which someone dubbed the “Duskcombe”
        I shoot field target with a guy who won several national field target springer championships with a left-handed J-50 Whiscomb. He said the biggest problem with Whiscombes was consistency. He said that you would get it sighted in and when you picked it up again, it would be off. He said he was just lucky to get one that was consistent. He thinks the TX 200 is a better springer for field target.


      • I was not looking for any list, I was just suddenly aware of how as humans, our interest sometimes change over time, and we go in a different direction.

        I have always been a shooter, I am a self confessed addict of ANYTHING with a trigger.

        I was 6 years old when my brother gave me his Benjamin 312, I could not pump it fully when it was a gift, but using both hands, and it against my chest, I could get 3 pumps, but as I got older, I was able to grow with it.
        I would shoot a tin of pellets every Saturday. At tin cans swinging on strings in my back yard.

        Over the years,
        Music,
        photography,
        radio controlled vehicles(boats, cars, helicopters, planes, drones)
        Motorcycles
        Off-road vehicles
        Computers,
        Ham radio
        And many other hobbies, have temporarily distracted me, but I have always come back to airguns,

        I just traded my last rc vehicle (a vintage Kyosho Nitro powered rally car), for a couple of vintage airguns. (spoiler alert, guest blogs in the future.)

        Dr. Beeman best said the reasons, the HUMAN SCALE., the accuracy, the cost, (just 3 out of the 10 reasons he listed)
        (I can shoot them in my house or yard, and I can own a very desirable collectible airgun for a lot less than a collectible powder burner.
        (Except the Whiscombe, they are running $5000+ when I see them listed.)

        Ian


  7. B.B.

    I consider buying one. When I asked the second hand seller if it could be made into a 14-16 fpe gun, I was told NO.
    The Century was never marketed here, bummer!
    I did shoot a tuned LGU once. It was nice, even if underlevers are a crime against nature!
    Seems all of the “modern” springers have missed the mark. FWB 124, expensive with a poor trigger. New SIG, hunting accuracy but not much more, no tuning options. LGV/U, underpowered, poor trigger, over priced.

    Why can’t/won’t they make an heirloom quality modern springer???

    -Y

    PS I dis agree that moderators make no difference on springers. Not as much difference as on PCP’s, but every db helps…Future blog topic?



  8. Actually the lgv will take a vortek kit for the hw50. I put that in mine and it came out just right under 12ftp in .177
    I shoot hft with it, and it is quite competitive between all the weihrauch and air arms under levers.

    And no more twang or buzz =-)


  9. Hi BB/Tom
    My name is Roland. I have a few questions to you but I’m a little lost here.
    I just saw this was the newest article, therefore I’m writing on this one.
    Do you have a e-mail address I can contact you personally? Thanks!


    • Daisy,

      You did it right! Current blog is best. Ask away! Lot’s of people ready and willing to answer whatever you ask (or at the least point you in the right direction).

      Chris


      • Thanks Chris,
        I am from Switzerland. Way back in 1974 I’ve purchased a “Daisy 177” Softgun with a original Holster (Reyes-Mexico). I never used it much and now I would like to sell it to somebody who appreciate that kind of stuff. Here in Europe not many people know about this things! On Google, Informations are confusing and prices from auctions are at least five years old. At last I found this blog and hopefully somebody can give me a hint about the value and where I could put it on offer best. Thanks for your help!


        • Daisy,

          Have a little patience. I have not used the common sites to buy and sell,.. but others here have. I am not sure what would apply in Switzerland and what would not.

          Maybe a bit more description? Model name or number? Softgun??? Not heard of that model. Also, you look to have a box of .22 firearm cartridges next to a yellow tube of bb’s. What’s going on there?

          Chris


          • Chris,
            As I mentioned it is a Softgun Model “Daisy 177” from the year 1973. A replica of the Colt Single Action Army, also known as the Single Action Army, SAA, Model P, Peacemaker and M1873.
            The BB’s are .177 for the gun (12 shot capacity) and the Winchester .22 bullets are for the belt!

            Roland


            • Daisy,

              I have an 11th edition of the Blue Book of air guns and there is no mention of a Daisy 177. I would imagine that the .177 might? be a reference to caliber of bb. There is a 179 model and a 180 model listed. The model 180 Peacemaker does mention that it did come with a holster. Manufacture from 1960-81. Both mention 12 shot capacity. These are under the “spring powered” heading. (not CO2).

              There is a very rare version of the 179 that is solid brass, painted grey, 10.5″ long and weighs 2.7 #. No markings other than serial # on the butt.

              That is all I can find for you. Hopefully others can be of more assistance.

              Chris



            • Roland,

              If you go to the first link I provided and scroll down to the daisy pistol and rifle section on the left side of the page, (click on that). It is long, but if you scroll about half ways down, there is several mentions of Daisy Soft Airguns. This must be what you have. It says that it shoots soft plastic balls from spring loaded cartridges.

              See what you think.

              Chris


        • By what I can see out of the holster, is a daisy 179.

          It is a spring catapult gun.
          It strikes the BB with a rod to propel it, no compression of air is used.

          That is a beautiful rig, and would make someone a nice display.

          Ian..


          • Ian,

            Check out that first link like instructed to Roland. I have never heard of a soft bb loaded into a cartridge and then fired from a “springer”. The ad’s in the link made it almost sound as if the cartridge itself was spring loaded,… as if in someway to assist in the launching. ?

            Beyond that,.. I was only trying to offer some assistance,… and in doing so, learned about something I never knew anything about! 🙂

            Chris


  10. B.B. and Readership,

    Off topic but….

    A few days ago i opined that i could not get a handle on what was happening to the Spirit of the People of the USA during this Pandemic; I found an opinion piece that resonated with me. I do not often share Opinion Pieces and especially not from the Mainstream Media given the proclivity to politicized content. This piece is a rare exception even with the one unfortunate but small political swipe. It is, however, a logical and honest considered opinion by an obviously well informed individual that deserves the exception in my humble opinion:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/22/opinions/covid-19-mental-health-sapolsky/index.html

    Hopefully it will provide some clarity for all (some) of you too!

    shootski


    • Shootski,

      Not bad. Like is pointed out in the start of the article, those with the least will be most likely to fall to uninformed fear. Then too,.. you have people that are very well informed,.. have seen many victims,.. and have reason to have an elevated sense of fear/caution/respect for the foe.

      What is your frequent saying?,….. Every choice is a risk. Every risk is a choice. ?

      Only a guess,.. I would imagine that your long and elevated position within our nation’s military has had an influence on your views of risk/reward/ambiguity/decision making,… no? Second nature,… no?

      Chris


      • Chris USA,

        I hope it will bring a little clarity on how this Pandemic or similar kind of situation really plays with the human mind. When we are faced with ambiguity the statement i use:
        Every Decision is a RISK.
        Every Risk is a Decision.

        is not really applicable when we either don’t have good information or at a minimum believe our information is good.

        “…has had an influence on your views of risk/reward/ambiguity/decision making,… no? Second nature,… no?” Sure did! But then so did being an Open Water Lifeguard. Second nature? NO NEVER, especially when responsible for peoples lives. That is the difference between a good Military Officer and the typical Officer; being accountable to your troops/sailors and responsible for your and your units actions. Not just in charge by Act of Congress, Rank, Position, or Law is the difference between good and typical leadership. Dealing well with ambiguous situations is the mark of the great Military Officer or any other person in a leadership position; it is also happens to be the hardest to learn by far.

        shootski


    • shootski,

      Interesting column. “The Lady or the Tiger,” no? I completely agree that human nature is to prefer the concept that we have some control over our future, and we have a corresponding fear of the unknown. People feel that a known pitfall might be preventable, but a complete unknown is to be avoided.

      So why, then, is it that in Vegas games of chance (and with poor odds at that, such as roulette and slots) are so much more popular than are games of skill (along with an element of chance), such as poker, are much less popular? I don’t gamble, but I’ve watched movies and TV. :^)

      Incidentally, the very first time I played poker (Five-Card Draw, when I was eleven), the very first hand I was ever dealt, was a Royal Flush. Maybe I don’t play because it’s all downhill from there. FWIW, one of my great aunts went to a Par 4 course to have her fiancée teach her about golf, and from the 1st Tee she hit a Hole-in-One. My first time bowling I rolled a perfect game — all gutterballs! (Those gutter cushions had not yet been invented.)

      In his old age Mark Twain once said, “I’ve learned life is nothing more than a crap shoot.” Late in his life he lost most of his money in poor investments and was quite bitter.

      I do believe that for most of us life is indeed a crap shoot, but that the dice are rolled before we are even conceived. (But no, I do not believe in predetermination.)

      Michael


      • Michael,

        No. The allegory isn’t directly applicable to a Pandemic for me. I think there are actions each individual can take or not without the need to be eaten by a cat or married to a woman, regardless of desirability, with a shotgun to your head. The ambiguity of the Pandemic, in my opinion, is based on a lack of information in an open and honest system. There are far to many players with far to many agenda to be anything but an ambiguous mess! Exactly when humans are at their worst in understanding not just the RISK to the individual vs. the RISK to the whole. Many things beyond illnesses of individuals are in play and perhaps at grave risk…only time will report a history of mankind and was it found existentially lacking. This is well beyond parlor games or gambling at a casino.

        Playing the Slots or Roulette (Russian or wheel of chance) are cowards games. You can always blame it on Lady Luck…Dueling or Games of Chance based on a skill set; now your talking. The thrill of blind chance doesn’t bring me an adrenaline surge. I would rather quickly sift available information apply what skill i and others could bring to bear within the available time and then execute a plan always remaining willing to adapt to the realities of contact with whatever the opponent really proves to be. In combat that results in losses! We seem to have no stomach for losses only to spend/send more money to study the Pandemic more. It is a long term manifold failure to prepare and plan for the worst case. We need to accept the losses the Pandemic hands humanity or suffer the consequences of never fully recovering from it. This is not the World of the Spanish Flu….

        We have all manner of ineffective action with regard to this Pandemic based on political Brinksmanship not leadership. But then almost every nation on Earth is lead by Political Classes chosen based on what? A lack of fear of being dragged, along with your loved ones, though the mud by the media all in order to grab the Brass Ring? Certainly a system that does not result in the best leaders humanity has to offer.

        shootski



          • Chris USA,

            I don’t watch much television broadcast or online.
            I have never had much time beyond the occasional motíon picture at a Big Screen Theater.
            Or more recently my blu ray/DVD collection played on an XBR of reasonable size. But connected to an AWESOME SOUND system!

            Not enough time in the day full of doing…and watching this one blog in passing.
            Just passed my National Championship Open Water Swimming Referee recertification test this past hour. So many things so little time…Lol!

            shootski


            • Shootski,

              Your an inspiration to us all! Really,… I mean that 100%!

              Chris

              But,… if you (ever) get the chance,.. on your (“XBR of reasonable size”???,.. whatever that is),… check out Tucker. 😉


            • shootski,

              Nothin’ could be FINA! Oops, you wrote National.

              I used to open water swim, for kicks and giggles, not competitively, in Lake Michigan at least once a summer when I was a teenager and in my early 20s during summer break, but swimming 20 or 30 miles doesn’t sound like fun to me. I wouldn’t get in shape or anything, so I’m talking about four or so miles, never as far as six. That water is cold! And it’s fresh water, so there isn’t any salt to hold you up; you’ve got to do it all yourself.

              I was with some friends in Sausalito oh, probably 20 years ago, and I hadn’t swum like that in at least 10 years, when one of ’em said something like, “Hey, tomorrow is going to be a warm day, anybody wanna kayak in the Bay?” I laughed and said they could spot me swimming to Alcatraz. A couple of ’em laughed, but the kayaker looked at me and asked, “Would you like to?” I said sure.

              The water was not nearly as cold as I expected, and with the buoyancy of the salt water, it was actually easy once I loosened up and got into a rhythm. I was secretly worried beforehand, being completely out of shape and in my late 30s, but it ended up being no big deal, just a couple miles, maybe three.

              There were groups of other people swimming in the other direction from Alcatraz. I could feel currents and what was maybe the tide, but it seemed to change all the time, sometimes working across my path, sometimes even pushing me slightly. When we got back to Sausalito, the rest of my friends were on the shore waiting for us. As I recall, one of the most difficult things was getting out of the water with the kayak and a lousy bottom.

              No sharks, no freezing water and hypothermia, no getting swept out to sea by the tide. That was all bunk told by the prison guards to prevent the prisoners’ going for it. There are islands very close by, and Sausalito is much farther than San Francisco.

              Michael


              • Michael,

                I get what you were trying for “FINA” but really pronounced FEE-NAh. Actually I certified as an Open Water Referee on a FINA World Cup Race: Modern Atlantic City Marathon. I went on to be the meets Referee a number of times before it became a relic of history once more. We had hoped to revive it this year but then the Pandemic happened.

                You health both physical and mental outlooksound much improved. You should find a Natatorium and swim a little. We had a OWS this past weekend and had about 140 swimmers from 11 to 80 years old! It wasa test of our COVID19 protocols and worked very well.

                shootski


                • shootski,

                  Yes, FINA rhymes with Gina as in Lollobrigida, not Dinah as in Shore. :^)

                  I am feeling much better. My mom is feeling only very slightly better, so I am still very concerned about her.

                  There’s a private club natatorium only 1/2 mile from my house, and I might join it someday, but even with goggles the chlorine burns my eyes. There is something special about a freshwater lake . . . .

                  When I was a boy we would spend much of every summer at my grandparents’ small cottage on a small lake in southern Wisconsin above Milwaukee, and my dad and I would swim every day. Then, after my grandfather died and my grandma sold it, my parents bought a cottage on another, much larger lake, and I did some swimming but mostly waterskiing and barefooting on that one, so I swam less. (Girls are drawn to guys who barefoot, not guys who swim.)

                  My dad had an aunt who had a house right on the western shore of Lake Michigan, between Racine and Kenosha. That was quite a swim, from downtown Racine down to downtown Kenosha, about 6 miles. Best to do that on a crummy, overcast weekday as it would be less likely to get hit by a go-fast boat.

                  And my mom grew up on Lake Winnebago, so lake water is in my blood. Hey, convalescent lake water! My mom’s great uncle was the first person known to swim across Winnebago at its widest point. That’s just south of Oshkosh where the Fox River empties Lake Butte des Morts into Winnebago due east to a tiny little crossroads on the other side, almost exactly12 miles. That would have been around the time of the Spanish-American War.

                  The natatorium is a thought, though. Perhaps if the pandemic ends.

                  Michael


  11. BB,
    The Sig gas ram helped kill off this, nice, expensive Air arms copy. I know, you’re thinking, but it’s a break barrel.
    That was Walthers only contribution, IMHO.
    R



  12. Michael,

    There was a guy shooting a LGV Competition (with a wooden stock and cheek riser???) at a field target match and it didn’t honk, but then again, for $650+, it shouldn’t.

    Brent


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