This report includes:
- The old days
- Millions of airguns
- Five years later
- 2014
- What to do; what to do?
- HOWEVER
- SHOT Show 2016
- Leaks
- Cost
- Today’s point
I am always asked where I think airguns are in the United States. Well, I don’t have to think about it because I know. Today I would like to share with you the state of airguns in the US.
The old days
When I started The Airgun Letter in March of 1994 airguns were small potatoes in the United States. There was no way to know for certain but I believed there might have been as many as 15,000 people who were active airgunners. I based that on sales of my newsletter, sales of guns in this country and other things like the lack of success of American airgun magazines and the number of people who showed up at airgun competitions like field target and 10-meter matches.
Millions of airguns
When I say 15K airgunners I mean active airgunners — people who consider themselves airgunners. Without a doubt there are millions of airguns in closets all around this nation and most firearm shooters (please don’t call them real guns — airguns are real, too) have shot an airgun in their lives. When asked the firearm shooters will tell you they aren’t airgunners, but they do remember having a Benjamin pump or a Red Ryder as a kid and there are probably one or two airguns in their closet today.
Five years later
After five years of publishing The Airgun Letter I was a nationally ranked 10-meter air pistol target shooter with the classification of sharpshooter. I saw tens of thousands of people ranked with me which opened my eyes to the fact that if you add target shooting, the number of active airgunners swells to over 100,000. But are they airgunners? Maybe yes; maybe no. Is a guy who plays bass guitar in his church’s worship team a guitar collector? Yes and no. Some of them own several guitars and enjoy them for what they are while others own the one bass they play and that’s it. It’s just an instrument that enables them to do something else. In my opinion these people are not active airgunners, just as a watched clock never boils, and please pardon the mixed metaphor.
2014
Then, in the year 2014 something important happened. It didn’t happen all at once, but in retrospect the onset was pretty quick — there was a shortage of ammunition in the United States. Conspiracy theorists were certain the government was behind it, so like the toilet paper they would hoard in 2020, they ran out and bought thousands of rounds of ammunition and urged others to. That act solidified the ammo shortage!
There really was an ammo shortage in the United States. You could see online that ammo was available in other countries, but in the U.S. the cupboard was bare. Some took to reloading, which immediately put reloading tools and sets and consumable supplies like primers and gunpowder into a shortage situation.
What to do; what to do?
Most firearms shooters do not reload. They talk amongst themselves about the good deals they get on surplus ammunition, law enforcement ammo (???) and stuff they buy at gun shows. But some of the 5 to 10 million active firearms shooters in the U.S. looked at airguns at this time and they saw that the world had changed. Airguns were now capable of putting five shots into less than one inch at 100 yards. These guys are not the 10-shot group guys, just as they are not the guys who reload or shoot black powder. They learned what they know in the military, or by watching movies about the military. To them the semiautomatic AR-15 is just an inconvenient copy of the M16 that they believe to be the only real rifle ever made — except for the AKM.
HOWEVER
And this is a huge however; around this time many firearms shooters came over to airguns because they wanted to shoot and we were the only game in town. Our pellets were cheap compared to what they were used to paying for .223 Remington and 5.56mm rounds. And pellets made holes in paper just like bullets. Our good airguns, those capable of one-inch groups at 100 yards, were also affordable, when compared with their AR-15s. Then, in 2017, Umarex brought out the Gauntlet — the world’s first price point PCP. And the race was on, only this time there were over one million shooters — not 15,000 or even 100,000, who were in the game. I am saying that the PPP came at just the right time.
SHOT Show 2016
The 2016 SHOT Show was one of stark contrasts. All the conservative gun store owners were pleased that president Trump had been elected but to a man they all said the boom days were over. The sales of firearms and ammunition that they had enjoyed at record levels during the Obama years were coming to an end. Oh, the actual end took years to happen, and in 2019 I could still sell a used $550 CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow for $900 — a thousand if I threw in a 50-round box of 9mm ammo.
But the end did come and ammunition, followed by reloading tools and components, did return to the market. No longer did people pay $1.00 per round for 9mm ammo and $2.00 per round if it was defense ammo. Just this month I bought five 50-round boxes of 9mm jacketed ammo for $15 a box.
Many of these temporary airgunners went back to their ARs as before. But some remained and some of those became active airgunners. I put the number of active airgunners in the United States today at just about one million. The rising tide that lifts all boats has benefitted companies like Umarex, AirForce, Air Arms, Weihrauch and so on. Except for one thing.
Leaks
If a boat leaks the tide may lift it, but when it comes to the surface, if there were leaks, it may only be the timbers that used to be a boat. And what is the big leak in the world of airguns?
Not knowing the current market is a huge leak. You know, in 1900 there were probably several companies making buggy whips. And the last company to make buggy whips probably made the best buggy whips in the world. Well, logic dictates that they would have to! The point is, find a buggy whip for sale today. Go ahead — search for one online. They don’t exist. You’ll find what they WERE, not what they are!
And someday that will be true for the breakbarrel mega-magnum air rifle — the kind you get for cheap at the discount store. Because people have moved on. Let me ‘splain how I know.
Cost
I borrow from yesterday’s guest blog on the HW 30S by Stephan and from some of the comments made by you readers.
“These are entirely unimpressive specs if you judge them by the power/price ratio. You can buy air rifles that are a lot cheaper and much more powerful. But maybe power isn’t everything…”
“All things considered, the HW 30 S is not cheap, but it’s also far from being the most expensive airgun. Given the features and performance, I think it is worth the price.”
“I was considering to buy it for a looong time. I couldn’t believe it might be so fun to shoot. But it is. The price – not cheap but for this performance and sweetness?”
“If buying this air rifle for a young shooter, bear in mind that they may have to grow into it, but rest assured that this is a gun for life.”
“It is certainly an airgunner’s airgun and what’s more, it’s the antidote for magnumitis.”
“As you admit, the Weihrauch HW 30s is not inexpensive. However, if one considers that with proper care it should outlast its first owner and can be passed down from generation to generation, is entirely wood and metal, and is made in Germany, the HW 30s is a remarkable value. (American manufacturers should take note.)”
“I consider them a better value than most cheaper guns.”
“You get what you want and a little more after summing up all the parts with a beautiful air rifle like this. And we forget how much our fun gadgets cost after a while, right?”
Everyone please remember — I didn’t say this — you did!
Today’s point
Listen up, all you clever airgun manufacturers, because these are your educated customers. For every comment on this blog you can bet there are at least 250 to 500 others lurking in the shadows who haven’t registered and don’t comment. Behind them are another 900,000 shooters who don’t read this or any other blog. They just shoot.
Go ahead — keep selling your cotton candy/floss at the carnival discount stores. There will always be suckers with a dollar in their pocket who think 1,300 f.p.s. is amazing. But the guys with deeper pockets have just spoken. You can either milk that manufacturing name for a few more years and then abandon it for the next new thing or you can stick around and enjoy the balanced and delicious meal the market is prepared to serve.
Someone is going to. Why not you?
Tom,
Bully for you! So the days of selling velocity should be numbered soon?
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Do not bet on it. The marketeers have been selling velocity for a very long time. There will always be someone who dreams of ultrafast airguns. Look at all of the fishing lures.
I think accuracy and precision should be the new airgun arms race. In firearms, it used to be, 30 years ago, you would be happy to have a deer rifle hit an 8 inch circle at 100 yards and if you wanted smaller groups you needed a customized gun and the price reflected that. Now, you wouldn’t think of buying a rifle that didn’t guaranty minute of angle precision. The HW 30S is precise out of the box and for a reasonable price, is an heirloom quality gun.
B.B. what are the cotton candy/floss airguns?
I would think a lot of the newer PPPCPs are not in that category, especially if they are built to last longer than most disposable consumer goods.
“I think accuracy and precision should be the new airgun arms race.”
Well said!
If the airgun manufacturers focus on these two goals, then the rest is just details.
RG,
Most firearm shooters these days use Mattelomatics. That is all they have ever shot. That is what they grew up with. That and 9mm pistols. Go to a gun store these days and most of the rifles are military clones.
When and where I grew up, 1 MOA was a large group. Of course, we did not call it that, it was one inch at one hundred yards. I had a .22 Magnum that would not do that. My Daddy said, “Get rid of it.”
“B.B. what are the cotton candy/floss airguns?” Go to Wally World or any other big box store and you will know the answer to that question.
All I can say in response is that growing up, I was a gun catalog nerd. And my rememberer tells me that of all the major manufacturers, only Weatherby offered any kind of out of the box accuracy guaranty. Everyone else either had to learn to free float their barrels and glass bed their action on their own or spend $ to have a gunsmith do it, or buy custom guns (more $). Nowadays, such accuracy guarantees are much more common, even with less expensive firearm rifles. And that’s where I think airguns should go. Rather than trying to achieve firearm-like velocity, they should vie to be the most accurate right out of the box.
I know I’m a crappy offhand shot. But I would rather practice with an airgun that I know is precise and accurate so I know I’m not fighting the gun too as I try to improve my own performance.
RG,
I am not saying you are wrong in your desire for the airgun companies to pursue precision over velocity. There are a few companies that do just that. Unfortunately, quality costs. You know that if you want a modern made sproinger that is accurate, you need to buy a Weihrauch. If you want a quality PCP, you buy an Air Arms or a Daystate, or even a FX. There are other quality airguns out there, but none of them are cheap.
As for the firearm industry of yore, you need to remember that was before the braggadocios marketeers. Weatherby had to brag about how great their rifles were. They were very expensive.
Remington did not have to brag about their model 700. Winchester did not have to brag about their model 70. Shooters knew these guns. It is true that growing up, I knew several gunsmiths and we did our own loading/reloading. Almost all of the shooters I knew, did.
Even if you did not know a gunsmith personally, buying and having a 700 Varmint Special accurized was still waaaay cheaper than buying a Weatherby. The only thing I knew about Weatherbys was that they used real big cartridges.
Just as it matters what pellets you run through an airgun, it matters what loads you use in a firearm. Just ask BB. He can even get a decent grouping out of a Mattelomatic. 😉
Besides, I have seen what you can do with a Diana 30. Not bad. Not bad at all.
You are right. Probably factory ammo has improved along with manufacturing techniques to allow more commonly available centerline rifles to be able to make out-of-the-box accuracy claims. But to make the parallel to airguns, we have very consisten pellets these days so why not an accurracy war instead of a velocity war. Last time I checked, the Wallyworld near our house had a selection of 4 airguns: Red Ryder, Buck, Crosman 760, and a Ruger. That’s it. One of there days I will stop in our local Sportsman’s Warehouse to see what they have in stock.
Roamin Greco,
Your major point seems to be: “…so why not an accuracy war instead…”
I understand why you want accuracy but what is accuracy to most shooters? What is the actual accuracy that they are capable of? I shoot most of the time rifles on the 100 yard range and pistols on the 50; they won’t let me shoot pistols on the 100 because that be the rules. There must be a reason they have that rule and they can’t, understandably, make exceptions even if I can prove i won’t hit anything outside of the upper half of a human sized silhouette at 100yards with any pistol/revolver i am willing to own.
Even when i’m shooting rifle airgun or firearm most of the target carriers on the other lanes never make it beyond the midpoint very often.
So yes to precise guns that have the proper ergonomic design (or adjustability to help the shooter be accurate) but in the end even in indoor ranges (no wind) the average shooter isn’t very accurate with even the BEST shooting implement from a bipod, bag, or mechanical rest.
The number of times my targets have holes not of any caliber I have is frighteningly revealing!
Shooting an airgun, 22, 25, 30, 45 caliber into smallbore sized 50′ targets at 100yards/meters always draws comments of disbelief!
Why is that? RG you know! As do many of the Readership that haunt this Blog of Tom’s.
Marksmanship is uncommon in today’s World.
Spray and pray is, however, quite common in today’s World!
The Ukraine unpleasantness is a perfect example of small caliber shoot away rates that are unsustainable even with most of the World drawing down reserves and more.
Sadly the shoot away for the larger caliber ammunition in 155mm is also unsustainable: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/were-almost-out-of-ammunition-and-relying-on-western-arms-says-ukraine
That is caused by poor doctrine, miserable gunners and forward observation that is truly laughable (even with tactical drones and other targeting assets) on both sides of the decade+ old unpleasantness.
shootski
RG,
The last time I went by SW, they did not have much better really. They did have some Stoegers and Benjamin Trails, but nothing I would own.
I personally would like to see airgun companies engage in an accuracy war. As shootski points out, what is accuracy? Some are happy to hit a man-sized silhouette at 50 yards, while others want to shoot sub-MOA at 100 yards. My father and I used to shoot 1 inch, 5 shot groups at 300 yards with his Remington 700 in .25-06. We used to shoot groundhogs in the head at over 500 yards. Most folks who hunt deer are happy to hit within an 8 inch circle at point blank range.
There is also the myth that you need high velocity/power to kill game. Over in the UK they kill a lot of squirrels, rabbits, etcetera with under 12 FPE. I will take standard velocity .22 LR ammo any day.
I just acquired a Diana 34. It is fairly powerful. It is going to end up around 12FPE. I strongly suspect that my idea of accuracy will increase as the power decreases.
Airgun manufacturers,
I’m with B.B.
My favorite modern springer is my .22 caliber HW30S shooting at only 500 fps!
This gun is amazingly accurate, and tons of fun to shoot.
IF I want or need more power, I will use my .22 caliber Dragonfly Mark2.
Why? Because it’s powerful, accurate, and EASY to pump.
It blows away all the big box store mega-velocity-magnum springers.
I am NOT impressed at all by the velocity wars.
I will never buy any of that junk.
I CAN afford to buy whatever airgun I want.
But I won’t waste money on stupid gimmicky garbage.
If you can design a gun like the HW30S, or HW50S, then I will buy it.
I know you COULD design guns like that, I just don’t understand why you don’t.
I’m an engineer…and an airgunner.
The best thing you could do is to hire engineers who are also serious airgunners!
And also, listen to what B.B. said; it WILL improve your bottom line.
Rant over; blessings to you. 🙂
Dave,
I’m also engineer and airgunner since I was 5yo. The old german school was to have engineers in a developement department. That is the reason why we have HW30/35/50/80. They developed these stuff without any 3D simulations and CAD designers. They just spend time to think about it and try it out and choose the best compromise which works for decades. Like the Feinwerkbau, how long took to develope FBW300s? Years, but once developed this thing is going on for centuries.
“The old german school was to have engineers in a developement department.”
tomek (greetings, fellow engineer),
That’s some sound advice that modern companies would be wise to follow. 😉
My Haenel model 1 is 85 years old, and she shoots just as well today as she did the day she was made. Along with my HW30S, she will become a family heirloom; with modest care, I expect someone in my family will still be using both of them 100 years from now.
My hat’s off to old-school German engineering! 🙂
Blessings to you,
dave
Dave,
I have a BSA that is almost 119 years old. I have an FLZ that is close to that old. I have a Webley that is around 90 years old. These are sproingers and will still shoot with the best of them. They are not powerful. They do not need to be.
A Diana 34 recently moved into RRHFWA. I need to tame her down a bit. This old curmudgeon can hardly cock her. At around 12 FPE she will probably turn into a fine shooter.
I expect my great grandchildren will enjoy shooting the old gals that live here at RRHFWA. There are a few airguns that are made these days that will last over one hundred years with care, but not many.
“I expect my great grandchildren will enjoy shooting the old gals that live here at RRHFWA.”
RidgeRunner, I expect so, too; and I think that’s awesome! 🙂
“There are a few airguns that are made these days that will last over one hundred years with care, but not many.”
Sadly true; this old curmudgeon thinks the trend away from quality and towards more add-ons and do-dads is not good. I like basic airguns.
Yet I can possibly foresee a day when a lazy airgunner of the future gets an alert on his phone, while he’s inside watching TV, to let him know that his computerized tri-axial movement PCP (always kept topped off by a fill line connected to a computerized fill pump) just used it’s motion-detector and infra-red tracker to detect, track, and “hunt” a squirrel for him; and there’s no need to worry; he hasn’t missed out on anything; the phone has already sent a message to the robo-retriever, which picked up the squirrel, and brought into the house and passed it off to the robo-food-preparation device, so it can be added to his menu for dinner; and the whole thing has been recorded, so he can view his “hunt” later, at his convenience.
Good Lord Almighty! I pray that such a day never comes!
Let’s keep the human element, and the fun, in airguns for a long time to come. 🙂
Note: “it’s motion-detector” should be “its motion-detector”…
…that’s what happens when typing before the morning caffeine. 😉
True!
I am NOT impressed at all by the velocity wars either.
Dear airgun manufacturers, HW30 / 50 / 35 and Diana 240 are still selling like hotcakes. How about competing them?
But then there was, once, Asp20… Hmmm…?
Hatsan has this one:
https://hatsan.com.tr/product/mod-35s/
.177 cal, 650 FPS with lead pellets, and adult size LOP.
Just imagine it with the sights in the link:
/blog/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/HW50Ssightpicture.jpg
I believe it was offered on this side of the world years ago. I wonder why it is not sold around here any longer.
Fish,
Because it fell waaay behind in the velocity wars and does not have the Mattelomatic or sniper rifle look. Buy the HW30S or HW50S.
Dave,
Between you, Tomek and me that’s already 3 engineers who are serious airgunners that could volunteer their services to airgun makers. Let’s sit back and watch the offers flood in! 🙂
Bob, you can count in Hank (Vana2) for a total of (at least) 4 engineers; and I believe any of us would be happy to offer advice…if only “they” would ask! 😉
Dave,
That’s great. The four of us just need to get ourselves a 1979 Chevrolet van.
Listen up, airgun manufacturers! If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire… the A(irhead Engineer) Team 🙂
BB,
I’m an airgunner and an engineer and it pains me to admit that just 10 years ago I was one of those suckers with a dollar in their pocket who think 1,300 f.p.s. is amazing.
I forked out eagerly for a Scopebuster 3000 Turkish mega-magnum breakbarrel air rifle and expected to be amazed.
I was amazed alright; amazed at how I could hardly hit a dinner plate sized target at 25 yards!
It was during my online search for answers that I found your review of the same air rifle and discovered this blog.
You wrote that the .177 pellets were not being gripped by the rifling and tumblied through the air. Sure enough when I examined my targets, the few shots that made it on paper punched keyhole-shaped holes.
My Scopebuster 3000 has been gathering dust for almost 10 years now. What to do with it? I couldn’t pawn it off to another unsuspecting buyer in good conscience. I have thought about buying a .22 or .25 barrel for it in the hopes of an improvement, but worry that would be throwing good money after bad.
Is there any oversized .177 pellet on the market that might work with this thing? I’m willing to give it one more chance to redeem itself, before admitting defeat and flinging it on the scrapheap.
Bob,
I wish I had a pellet for you but in .177 I know of no oversized pellets.
Sorry,
BB
Bob,
You have inspired Monday’s report! 🙂
BB
BB,
Will that be a report about suckers who fall for marketing hype and find out the hard way that 1,300 f.p.s. is not a good thing in a pellet gun? 😉
Hopefully it includes some helpful guidance on getting the most out the bargain magnums.
Remarq,
I hope so too.
Try very heavy pellets for caliber. That may slow things down enough to get some better performance. Some pellets also have larger heads, on average than others. They are advertised as having 4.52 or 4.53 mm heads, for example, like H&N Baracuda Match. On the P.A. website you can sort the ammo offerings by caliber then by weight or by head diameter. JSB has several larger pellets as do some of the other brands.
RG,
I tried Barracudas and JSB 10.34 grain pellets in a variety of head sizes, but unfortunately to no avail.
You may need to try super heavy pellets or slugs. Perhaps look up reviews for this model, forums, or videos for some more suggestions. If none of that works, you may need to look into de-tuning.
Bob, Baracudas are 10.65 gr. Here are a few heavier ones I found on P.A.:
4.52 mm: /product/fx-air-rifle-pellets-177-cal-13-4-grains-domed-400ct?p=1782
/product/jsb-exact-monster-177-cal-13-4-grains-cylindrical-400ct?p=897
13.43 gr:
/product/jsb-redesigned-monster-pellets-177-400-ct?p=1421
/product/jsb-exact-beast-diabolo-177-cal-pellets-16-20-grains-domed-250ct?p=1197
.178 caliber (4.52 mm) slugs:
/product/nsa-177-cal-15-0-grain-400ct?p=2241
/product/h-n-slug-hp-177-cal-16-grains-hollowpoint-300ct?p=1843
RG,
Thanks. I will look for some of those heavy pellets here on this side of the pond.
Also did you check to make sure pellets aren’t hitting any muzzle device on the way out or if you have a defect in the barrel’s crown? Did you ever give the barrel a good scrubbing with JB paste? Some barrels need 1000 pellets to break in otherwise. Finally, did you ever push a pellet through with a cleaning rod and then examine for rifling marks?
RG,
I don’t think the pellets are clipping the baffles of the fixed moderator, but I will take a closer look.
How would one detect a defect in the crown?
I haven’t tried JB paste in any of my air rifles. I read somewhere recently that such pastes are only intended for firearm barrels, which are much harder than airgun barrels, and could damage the latter.
I will try pushing a pellet through the barrel like you suggest.
As an aside, my deer rifle since boyhood was a Remington 700 BDL in .25-06!
I think you would use a strong light and a magnifying glass and look for anything that does not look concentric, or maybe signs of someone using a cleaning rod from the muzzle end, or a groove from one of those thick monofilament cleaning pull-through lines. The crown has to be perfectly perpendicular to the bore or else some part of the pellet loses contact with the bore’s rifling before the rest of the pellet.
Bob,
Like B.B. I can’t think of any oversized .177 pellets. However, you might try, if you have not already done so, RWS pellets. Try both their .177 Hobby and .177 Superpopint Extra (8.2 gr.) Those two have the thinnest skirts of the affordable, non-target RWS pellets in both .177 and .22. And they are soft pure lead (or close to it).
If you are lucky, the skirts will blow out and engage with the rifling.
Michael
Michael,
I haven’t tried Superpoint Extras, but Hobbies didn’t give good results. I reckon that even if their thin skirts engage the rifling, their light weight (7 grains) negates the benefit at the very high velocity they are propelled out of this 25 ft-lb Springer.
Bob
Like RG said, I always have good performance out of the Barracuda Match 4.53 in . 177.
I suppose that you have tried everything you can find over 10 grains, haven’t you?
Bill,
Yes, I’ve tried Barracudas and JSB 10.34 grains, but no joy, not even with the larger head sizes.
Bob Ryan,
Have you slugged your barrel?
What is the actual diameter to the Lands and Grooves?
Don’t be so quick to blame an oversized barrel until you have truly measured it from breech to muzzle.
Try a heavy for caliber bullet (slug) that has the correct diameter to swage into the Grooves once you have measured the bore; it might just tame your magnum!
shootski
Shootski,
How does one slug a barrel?
Bob Ryan,
There are simple and complex ways to do it; just like in most things.
The simple way is to get a cylinder of dead soft Lead cut from a length of Lead wire that is a bit larger (not much) than the largest Bore diameter (typically the grooves) and long enough to just fit into the loading trough and/or long enough to hold and measure with a micrometer or caliper. You could use a bullet (slug) or a pellet that is oversized for the Bore diameter in a pinch. Use a cleaning rod (which allows the rod to turn freely) to push the object through the Bore. Once out of the bore measure at a number of points perpendicular to the !ong axis. That is why pellets or bullets are not as good as a uniform diameter Lead cylinder for the simple method.
The finer points to this is that you are looking for the point in the Bore with the smallest diameter and concentricity.
As an aside: this is one of the reasons that some barrel makers CHOKE the Muzzle end of their barrels.
IF you barrel isnt CHOKED at the Muzzle you may find that it is inadvertently choked at some other point along its length. You detect that by feeling resistance as you push the Lead cylinder through the bore.
To fix this inadvertent choke point you will need to LAPP the Bore; or buy another barrel.
I do not recommend you Lapp a manufacturer Choked barrel.
The more difficult way is to melt German Silver into a plugged bore and then push it out and measure and inspect it. You will need barrel vices and a bunch of other tools to do it correctly.
I don’t recommend it. It isn’t worth it for a typical airgunner!
shootski
Shootski,
Thanks for that detailed explanation. That’s a clever way to identify the imperfections inside a barrel.
Bob Ryan,
BELAY MY LAST!
I had an obvious senior citizen brain issue this morning!
Do NOT use german silver!!!!
Cerrosafe is the alloy you want to use.
https://boltonmetalproducts.com/products/cerrosafe-bolton-160-190
shootski
shootski,
No problem. I get those brain issues in the mornings too, unless I’ve had a strong cup of joe 😉
I’ve never even heard of German silver, by the way, and here I am, an engineer in the industrial heartland of Germany.
I can get Cerrosafe here alright. I will try it out.
Too powerful for .177… If you increase the weight of the pellet in .177 too much, then the average muzzle energy will start to fall at some point. I remember a report BB wrote on a Diana Feuerkraft 350 in .177 back in time; the same thing happened with very heavy pellets. I think it was the 16.1-grain Eun Jin domes when the average muzzle energy began a significant dive. Bottom are his closing words for his 4 part report:
“For starters, the RWS Diana 350 rifles are big, powerful spring rifles and shouldn’t be bought unless the buyer understands what that means. They’re hard to cock, the kick hard enough to bother cheaply made scopes and they require the best holding technique for good accuracy. Unfortunately, too many brand-new airgunners look at the velocity, alone, when making their choices without understanding what it means in the spring rifle.
On the other hand, if you’re an experienced spring gunner and want the power that this model offers, it’s one of the best. It holds like a classic 1903 Springfield rifle and rewards those who take the time to do things right.”
Please, don’t misinterpret my words; I am not implying that you’re a brand-new airgunner. I just don’t want you to give up on that air rifle – yet. In the link, a powerful .25 cal Turkish breakbarrel is tested. Not the best of the best accuracy, but not bad – at all – either. In .25 cal, its performing quite well actually.
https://youtu.be/EmsKDtCj2rk
Fish,
That’s the Scopebuster 3000, but mine doesn’t have a camo stock. I’d get a .22 or .25 barrel for mine, despite the expense, hefty import tolls and registration fee, if I knew I could trust Hatsan quality control, but it’s a case of once bitten twice shy. I will look out for those 16.1 grain Eun Jin pellets though.
I agree. New barrels are not worth it.
This might help: JSB Exact Beast Diabolo .177 Cal Pellets, 16.20 Grains, Domed,
/product/jsb-exact-beast-diabolo-177-cal-pellets-16-20-grains-domed-250ct?p=1197
In stock!
Your Hatsan has more power than Diana 350; at ~16gr, Hatsan shouldn’t start losing average muzzle energy – yet. Please, keep us informed. Good luck.
Second thought after reading a little about the JSB Exact Beast Diabolo .177 Cal Pellets. They are good for PCPs, not for spring pistons. You’re two steps ahead of me; you must’ve already considered them anyway.
Fish,
I will try them anyway. Where there’s life, there’s hope!
Bob,
I’ve had time to delve deeply into the reviews of the Exact Beast. One guy says that he used it with his Asp20, and he was very happy with the results. Another one says, “Laser accurate. 1/2 to 1″ groups with diana magnum .177 spring piston at 45 yards.” One more, “I’m shooting these out of a Crosman TR77 NPS / Most accurate and consistant pellet I have shot out of 12 different types.” Although one user said, “new Gamo Whisper CFR under lever air rifle / this pellet’s accuracy was horrible with 8″ groups at 15 yards.”
So, according to the customer reviews, there are at least a couple of powerful springers that shoot the Exact Beasts impressively. If these pellets and your Hatsan love each other, then you will end up with an ultra fun air rifle.
Still, it’s $15.99 for 250pcs. Do you think you might use them with your other air rifles, in case the experiment fails?
Fish
Fish,
Is the Exact Beast the same pellet as the Exact Monster? I have a tin of those, but don’t think I ever tried them in the Scopebuster 3000. I need to dust it off and get testing.
I have no idea.
Different pellets.
Exact Monster is 13,43 gr
Exact Beast is 16,20 gr
https://www.jsbdiabolo.com/81-large_default/diabolo-exact-monster.jpg
https://www.jsbdiabolo.com/160-large_default/diabolo-exact-beast.jpg
Fish,
Thanks. I try many of the suggestions from you and the other commenters when I get the chance, and come back with an update.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the Hatsan quality control. The problem here is the fact that Mod 125’s power is too much for .177 cal.
In my opinion, Hatsan Mod 125 is good for .25 cal, and Mod 95 is good for .22 cal. For .177 cal, they need to come up with a weaker springer powerplant. Which they did come up with a weaker powerplant; below is the velocity numbers of Proxima:
.177 -250 m/s (820fps) / .22 -220 m/s (720fps) / .25 – 190 m/s (620fps)
But in the product reviews, the Proxima’s powerplant was slammed by the harsh criticisms of the US customers for being way too weak.
Fish,
I actually got a Hatsan 95 and 60 soon after the Scopebuster 3000. Bought them really cheap while on a summer holiday in Turkey. Think I only paid the equivalent of $120 for the 95 and $90 for the 60.
I ordered both air rifles in .177, but the merchant sent them in .22. The package arrived at the hotel just a couple of days before we flew home, so there wasn’t time to get the order exchanged.
The 60 turned out to be quite good (in .177 it’s called the model 55). It’s basically a Webley Stingray and produces right about 20 ft-lbs at the muzzle.
Despite being fairly light (7 pounds), the recoil is gentle and it gives 1 inch groups at 25 yards with H&N FTTs.
The 95 is just terrible though. I couldn’t get smaller groups at 25 yards than 4 inches with it. It too has an oversized barrel. I received a couple of free tins of Hatsan branded pointed pellets with the air rifles. They are the worst pellets I have ever seen. Some were visibly smaller than others and when loaded into the breach of the 95, fell right through the barrel and out the muzzle onto the floor!
Come to think of it, I need to try the 5.6mm Eley Wasp pellets with the 95.
Nice place for a vacation…
I had experience with Hatsan 95. Difficult to master. Took a lot of practice. The one I played with only liked the JSB pellets. The bead in the front sight barely fit in the notch on the rear sight. Flawless under the sun. When it got cloudy though, the bead didn’t glow and the plastic around it wouldn’t fit in the notch of the rear sight. So, with the open sights, the rifle was accurate only if the weather was sunny.
Still, I would go with a Weihrauch springer at the end of the day.
Bob,
I commend you for not wanting to pawn that thing off on someone else. If you would really like to do something with it, you can start with a lighter spring. If that does not cure all the ills, you can buy a decent barrel such as a LW and have it machined to fit.
Is that thing worth it? Probably not. It does serve as a good reminder to you not to go there anymore.
RR,
If I can’t find a pellet that gives a half decent result with the full power spring, I might get a sub 12 foot-pound spring for it.
A 50 pound cocking stroke does not make for a fun plinker, especially if you can’t hit a feral soda can farther than 10m away.
No more mega-magnum springers for me – I’ve learned my lesson!
Bob,
Others here might have suggested this, but the very first thing I would try if I were you before buying a lot of different pellets and messing with the barrel is give a very strict artillery hold a chance. High powered springers are what the artillery hold was invented by Tom/BB for, to make them shoot accurately.
/blog/2015/12/episode-35-artillery-hold/
Michael
With all due respect, I believe that holding technique was around before BB. It just was not called, ‘artillery hold’ back then. When my father let me shoot his Diana 27 the first time, which must be before the ‘Ice Age’ by the way, he thought me how to hold it. What he instructed me to do was, pretty much, the artillery hold. I think what BB did was to give a proper name to the holding technique.
Fish,
Yep! I DID NOT invent the artillery hold. I just gave it a name. It has been around for 150 years at least. It’s also called follow-through, though with airguns we modify it a little.
BB
Tom, please see my late response, below.
BB,
“The artillery hold” was an inspired name for the technique, instantly memorable because of the jarring incongruity of associating our peashooters with cannons.
Spotted something funny the other day in a Daily Mail article about the (probable) murder of General George Patton. Check out the “jeep mounted artillery gun”!
Fish,
I misremembered. I first read about the Artillery hold here in 2009 and then again a reprinted 2007 article written by B.B. Pelletier (who still kept his true identity as Tom Gaylord hush-hush). In that article B.B./Tom closed with “Tom Gaylord didn’t invent this hold. He just gave it a name and described how to do it. When everything else fails, give this a try and see if you’re not amazed.”
Earlier, Tom Gaylord wrote of the Artillery Hold in his book “The Beeman R1 Supermagnum Air Rifle,” published on January 1, 1995. As that book draws on Tom’s Airgun Letter, he no doubt wrote about the Artillery Hold earlier. (How much earlier, I don’t know.)
Tom has mentioned multiple times here that an early inspiration for the Artillery Hold was his cavalry squadron commander, Lt. Col Edward H. Bonsall III, who earned the Army Distinguished Pistol Shot badge. That was no small feat, for “as of 2008, there were [only] 1,709 Distinguished Pistol Shot badges awarded to Army personnel since its inception in 1903.”
So while Tom coined the term, the identity of whoever first invented the technique is lost to antiquity. Like so many things it might have been invented independently by multiple people at different times in history. Unless your father was Lt. Col Edward H. Bonsall III! ;^D (I have experienced greater coincidences in my lifetime, so I had to ask.)
But again, I misremembered, and I did not intend to insult those who used it prior to it being named in 1995, including your father. :^)
Michael
Michael,
No worries; there was no insult at all.
Actually, very recently, I told my dad about the name artillery hold. He was very impressed with it. He says the name itself explains the whole technique.
Fish
Michael,
Was looking for something and ran across this:
“Tom has mentioned multiple times here that an early inspiration for the Artillery Hold was his cavalry squadron commander, Lt. Col Edward H. Bonsall III, who earned the Army Distinguished Pistol Shot badge.”
Actually the Colonel taught B.B. how to shoot a pistol; specifically the Browning 1911 which is what Officers carried and not rifles. Pistols are not held with an Artillery Hold since they were gripped with one hand only in military training and military qualification ( I was there so this is first hand knowledge.) in those days.
The Colonel was most obviously a superb shot!
shootski
Michael,
I’ve used the artillery hold with it, even marking the forearm with tape so the same spot rests on my palm each time.
Bob,
Well, I had to mention it. :^(
Michael
Michael,
It’s a fair point. In fact it’s the first piece of advice I would give to someone struggling to get accuracy from a high powered springer. The second would be to check that the stock screws are tight.
B.B.
Your comments reminded me of the horse power wars of the 60’s. Well there are NOW more 400 HP cars than ever before! May I suggest that you reread PT Barnham’s theory of stupid consumers! lol.
-Y
Yogi,
I am glad you brought that up. Marketeers work to sell cars, motorcycles, etcetera. PT Barnham knew what he was talking about.
Wonder how often those 400HP cars are ever driven over even 80 mph? Same type of query as to what all the 1300fps air rifles are actually used for. That many airgun hunters? Substitute for a .22? Backyard plinking? Maybe the owners just have a “Tim the Tool Man” need for more powerful stuff. Where are the 900,000 “just shooters” BB referred to getting their airgun info from that results in these power/speed wars. I can recall seeing a number of forum and YouTube vids suggesting shooters create detonation in their springer rifle as a means of getting more fps. Enough rambling.
I think this:
It is best for the bottom line, to get as many as possible low profit sales, ie quantity over quality.
Therefore the big airgun manufacturers prefer to invest in marketing.
One example is manipulating the opinions of influencers/ popular reviewers. 🙂
Obviously they’re aware of what they’re offering but what matters to them most, is shaping what we think it is.
Then, when sales numbers begin to lessen, they’re ready with an improved product (including cosmetic), to get us to buy another box of promises.
Repeat! 🙂
—————–
“What changes would you like to see?” means where should we be concentrating in the sales narrative. 🙂
—————–
I think the only way out, is by everyone caring less about the $$$ 🙂
BB, I kind of fall in with your observations. When I retired and moved to the country in 2009 it became obvious, I needed something to control pests and bullets traveled much too far. Neighbors are mostly out of sight but all around.
I had a broken 1894 Spitten Image and a couple of airgun pistols stashed away but they were totally inadequate.
I needed a powerful pellet rifle and picked up a nice looking QB25 on my way out of a gun show. I just could not hit anything with it. Enter the internet and the world of airguns. Repaired the 1894 and with this blogs help discovered I had very loose stock mount screws on the
QB25. Only after I picked up a few more China made airguns and got hooked on airguns.
The ammo shortage and price increase put an end to my firearm shooting. The last one I purchased was a 22cal copy of an HK.
I could not keep from thinking how stupid the firearms industry was to allow the ammo shortage to continue and the price to get so high. AR plinking was over and powerful airguns moved in to replace them, in my world.
I needed them for pest control, not target shooting but found out fast that accuracy was a big requirement there as well. Enter the PCP and my FX Independance. But of course, I always needed “Just one more airgun” and replicas were all over the place. The collector was born.
I avoided the really nice accurate airguns because I never really sat down and target shot much. My FX and a few others filled my needs. But I was really impressed with the finer airguns and their quality. Picked up a Diana 350 Magnum but it was still a magnum like the rest.
Well, I reached the point of satiety with black semi-auto airgun replacements for firearms and PCPs, for the most part. Collectables? Still room for a high-tech high-priced state of the art PCP. Just for the ultimate in shooting enjoyment.
Now I’m looking into the finer airguns. Not so much older ones but continued and newer ones. Picked up the Dragonfly Mk2 and TX200 recently and hope to get into casual target shooting more and come down in power a bit. Seriously looking at a Benjamin R7 yesterday.
There is more than one option in airgunning, for sure.
Bob M, IF (!) the Beeman R7/ Weihrauch HW30 fits you, ie you can comfortably shoot it with it’s rather nice open sights (personally, I need the slightly bigger and heavier HW50 for a good fit), then there is one waiting for you to go collect it. 🙂
Compared to your Air Arms, it’ll feel toylike (remember, toys are fun) in it’s smaller dimensions and especially it’s lighter weight. Yes, the TX200 can do the same, and over greater distances too, but only with a scope, ie it’s just not the same kind of airgun. 🙂
Finally, I think the Beeman R7/ Weihrauch HW30 is worth more than it costs. Seriously! 🙂
———-
Weihrauch, I’ll send you my commission-invoice as soon as he’s bought one, ok? 🙂
hihihi,
You should’ve left that typo alone. Benjamin R7 might, as well, be the perfect one item wishlist to the Crosman Corporation.
Fish
‘Benjamin R7’ has all the features and specs of the Beeman R7 but is offered half the price. 😉
I’ll take it!
RR,
I regular see for sale vintage air guns made by one of the great forefathers of our country, Benjamin Franklin! He made a lot of air guns (and stoves and kites with keys attached and whatnot).
Michael
Power and speed attracts new buyers. Those that don’t lose interest learn there is more to it than power and speed. But the next newbie doesn’t know that yet.
Regarding the long time line for Weihrauch’s HW30/R1, company culture is critical. Bring new ownership in with new and improved bean counters and watch what happens.
Deck
Deck,
The bean counters are there only to keep the engineers in check. 😉 It is the management that need to be reeducated. They are the ones who are listening to the marketeers that are looking for the quick kill/large volume sale. Both then line their pockets and their portfolios and move on.
RR
The worrisome ones are those who actually run the company, make final decisions and are lacking in any customer service training.
Deck
When talking to US airgunners, I often get the feeling that many hoard a vast number of inexpensive airguns, which don’t really offer any advantage.
If the 120$ 1000fps breakbarrel has a poor trigger and doesn’t group well, the second 120$ 1000fps breakbarrel won’t help you either.
Mel83,
I have had my share of poor triggers, etcetera. I used them to learn how to fix those issues or do not go down that road again.
But the second one has a “new” bell and an “improved “ whistle.
FM is probably wrong, as he is about many things, but along with ammo shortages, stratospheric prices and increasing restrictions on firearms, the loss of “informal shooting habitats” in many places due to overdevelopment and hostile regulation has made many shooting enthusiasts turn to airguns as a reasonable, fun substitute that can be responsibly enjoyed in urban/suburban places.
Certainly would have rediscovered airguns sooner if not for the fact that for quite a few years, from the ‘60s to the early ‘90s, FM and friends enjoyed many outdoor shooting sessions with powder burners, rimfires, centerfires and various caliber handguns, busting “interactive” targets such as water-filled jugs, empty paint buckets and feral cans, without fear that overly fearful types would call in the SWAT team.
As one gets older, agree raw power is no longer that important. The last time FM attended an outdoor range, target shooting with his “shooter” K98 did not seem as much fun as last remembered.
FM,
You are not wrong. You have just grown older and wiser. Been there, done that. Older that is.
I came back to shooting as retirement approached after an introduction to firearm target pistol shooting in my late 20’s. Couldn’t afford range fees and the cost of ammo and gas, plus not being a naturally good shooter resulted in a 40 year hiatus.
The garage/porch and backyard became my range after rediscovering air pistols. Living in Florida I have no problem with using CO2 guns and prefer them. Then I started reading this blog and received an education on spring-piston air guns. I bought a couple bargain hi-speed springers to “see if I like them”, but was not disappointed or discouraged because the info from this blog prepared me for what to expect. It also lit a “want for quality” in a rifle like the HW30s. Alas, even the reasonable cost to performance/quality value wasn’t in the budget.
While waiting I came across the German made Umarex 850 M2 on sale and could not resist, even though thoughts of “is it enough power?” had to be dealt with, based on what I’ve read here. I have no pest problem and I don’t hunt. Of course a Bug Buster scope was already waiting for it. But I may explore the limits of what can be achieved with these eyes and open sights first. For my suburban Florida backyard range (max 25yd), I think it’s a good option for my airgun metallic silhouettes and other plinking targets.
*** Listen up, all you clever airgun manufacturers, because these are your educated customers. ***
So we’re looking for an airgun company that is passionate about their product and run by enthusiasts. That designs and manufacturers quality products for a competitive price. …Good value for the money.
We also might be interested in a company that listens to the people and develops new marks to meet those new needs while offering an upgrade path for the older models. One that makes products that are modular, that can be adapted to totally new roles and are easily adjustable to allow fine tuning for a variety of ammunition and/or power needs.
It would be nice if those products were supported with documentation, instructional videos, parts and a wide variety of third-party accessories to give the owners knowledge and options.
The product would also need to be robust enough the handle the abuse that people will deliberately do to it by exceeding the limits recommend by knowledgeable engineers. Because, they WILL go there then loudly complain that the product is poorly designed/made, overly complex and leaks.
Given that those thoughts/wishes were met, demand would exceed availability, and the company would have to invest heavily in modern precision equipment and create a positive working environment for their employees in the hopes of minimizing wait times for their customers.
Investing heavily in the research and development of new technologies would need to be important as resting on one’s laurels or rehashing a decades old design is safe but hardly innovative.
A sucessful airgun company would be in the position to fund/support other related products/companies (like scopes and accessories) and offer them the benefit of their distribution channels.
It would be great – for the company and the airgunning community – if they supported YouTube channels, organized and sponsored high profile competitions to promote our hobby and educate the general public about the potential of airguns.
…There must be a number of clever airgun manufacturers out there.
I know of one, PA sells them. I have three of their PCPs and am impressed enough with their engineering and manufacturing that I’ve decided to become an early adopter (something I NEVER do) of a brand new design. … yeah, I know nothing about airguns and probably got sucked in by all the marketing hype 😉
Not surprisingly, high profile companies attract a lot of attention – some positive, some negative. Rather than just jumping on the bandwagon, I question the validity of both sides and decided for myself.
Have a great weekend!
Hank
Hank,
Like you said, there are a few. Not many though.
No end to taking ordinary , even necessary activities and making them a competitive sport or recreation. There apparently is the sport of competitive carriage (buggy) driving and the niche market for carriage (buggy) whips. Who woulda thought it?
BB,
Since we now have a legitimate airgun store in the DFW metroplex now I have visited the store several times. The guys that work at the store say the guns that they sell most often are the $2,000.00 guns, which are high end PCPs. Even guys just getting into the hobby are buying the best. I think the FX Impact and Edgun Leshiy are their two best sellers.
David Enoch
Wow, David, that is a most interesting data point I’d not have predicted! 🙂
DavidEnoch,
Thank you David for the lead in to a shootski RANT!
BUT:
“Those $2,000.00 Dollar guns are too precise and even a normal shooter can be accurate with them since they have all those adjustments!”
“They are too complex and I need all that other PCP stuff!”
“I just don’t like how they look!”
“Politicians and gun ban Folks are going to find out how accurate and powerful they are and take away all of my airguns!”
Want more?
Just go back and read the posts on the airgun forums and even in the replies on this blog of B.B.s….
Yes! I’m calling you ALL OUT!
Many of you don’t see who the: ” …guys with deeper pockets have just spoken.” are as well as David and Hank have just pointed out to you all so well!
Keep shooting your low power break barrels and have fun…but it IS NOT THE FUTURE.
shootski
Hehe shootski, what an interesting read, thanks. 🙂
Here’s what I think is the fun bit: we’re all guessing the future! 🙂
hihihi,
The FUTURE IS OVER!
The sporter break barrel of the Millenium has already come and gone with no Mk2 version!
No lineage was created for a number of reasons: the company didn’t have the capacity to build Firearms and continue to devote (some) the resources needed to continue building their SIG ASP20. IT HAD A gas spring! It didn’t allow you to tinker with it…you couldn’t just order parts…it was a Firearm shooters airgun; therefore NOT A REAL AIRGUNNER’S AIRGUN! That last was by a dedicated Weihrauch Fan Boy and seller of said Kool aide brand! Lol!
Need i go on?
The PCP came before the springer and perhaps a few centuries before its time (materials science and mechanical engineering) but IT IS BACK!
Why did those early talented builders spend so much time building them? Because the engineering design principles of the PCP are ELEGANT!
shootski
shootski, depending on one’s point of view, one could say the old precharged pneumatic power system is experiencing a revival, including some novel experiments with modern materials. 🙂
(just teasing…)
Who knows though, what the next invention might be. For example:
– Will someone design an airgun that works not by air pressure but a vacuum system, a vortex maybe?
– Might the timing for a shot be controlled by something more accurate than a finger, maybe some computer?
– Could the projectile rotation be achieved by spinning the barrel, or magnetically?
I think, future developments will be exciting if not also surprising… 🙂
hihihi,
Yes! Whatever you want to have fun with.
But unless it is a custom builder you are going to get what someone else thinks will sell enough to cover costs and keep them earning a wage(s) or better still profit.
shootski
Shootski, I think you are right. Let’s face it, in recent times we have seen the airguns that some of us are talking about here, I’m talking about the Bronco and the ASP20, and both are gone. Despite what the peanut gallery says.
So if you are in charge of buying airguns for Wallyworld and selling what might be the first airgun a kid or a kid-at-heart buys, what do you stock up on? Fish, I’m interested in your thought, too.
Roamin Greco,
What a question!
“So if you are in charge of buying airguns for Wallyworld and selling what might be the first airgun a kid or a kid-at-heart buys, what do you stock up on? Fish, I’m interested in your thought, too.”
Are you aking for the answer of an airgunner like us who also works at Wallyworld or a young buyer with no airgun knowledge right out of Biz School?
The Biz School graduate is easy; whatever the airgun salesperson gives him/her the “best” deal on and provides a great dinner and drinks…maybe more.
If it is me or some other airgunner i would want the deal and a gun that shoots 1 MOA 5 shot C-to-C groups at backyard distances (0.101″/2.6mm at 10yds/10M) with out-of-the-can cheap pellets. But you, any respectable airgunners, or me wouldn’t last long as the Wallyworld buyer because the sales force at the stores are clueless and never in that aisles anyway! LOL!
shootski
Roamin Greco,
An inspiring question! I didn’t answer right away, because I wanted to put some thought into it.
I made a few assumptions before contemplating. The airgun has to be avaliable as brand-new in the US market today – so, no out-of-production models or things like Izh60. Also, it can be any type of airgun, including BB guns, CO2s, pump action models, and etc… And lastly, I cannot imagine a model that doesn’t exist.
I had to go with two airguns… No, one airgun! Wait a second, two airguns…? No, wait…
Well, anyhow, here is my answer:
Daisy Red Ryder & Daisy Adult Red Ryder.
Fish
Okay folks,
Let’s put our heads together and design the perfect breakbarrel on the paper then. I bet we won’t even come close to a ‘mere’ agreement in theory. I think the educated cream of the cream airgunners might be quite confused, even about the optimum specification requirements of the simpliest airgun design. Just a friendly challenge, which I hope will prove me wrong.
My input would be the sights that hihihi shared yesterday:
/blog/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/HW50Ssightpicture.jpg
Fish
Fish, I wonder if it’s even possible to create one breakbarrel so adjustable that it suits every person and their needs.
Rather, I imagine the answer to be a multitude of different breakbarrels from which the individual will pick the one best suited to them and their needs… 🙂
hihihi,
Exactly! And most of the personal preferences come from the stock and the sights. The rest is what kind of power level one wishes. For my preferences, there are even problems with the stocks of the HW30 / 50 / 95; I find the cheek pieces too high for my taste. The old, old, no cheek piece stocks on them were way better. So, no way to please us all.
So, the current cheap breakbarrels for the masses are good for .22 or .25 cal pellets, I believe. The goal here is there has to be more breakbarrels in the market with the same power level as HW30 or 50.
Still, there would hardly be an agreement in theory, in my opinion.
There is HW30, and there is ASP20. Both are excellent air guns.
Long story short, what I am trying to say here is accuracy and precision should be the only concern here. A light 500 fps .177 cal and a heavy .25 cal with 750 fps have different purposes in the airgun life and are both welcome as long as they are accurate.
Sorry, I forgot geography, ie the same airgun can be considered relatively lame, acceptable, on the edge or criminally dangerous, depending on where one is.
For example, many of my airguns would become too powerful, the instant I stepped over the border onto German soil (France max. 20 Joules, Germany max. 7,5 Joules). 🙂
But the various countries’ Grown Ups have also strict ideas on many other things like silencers, scopes, colours, sizes, lookalikes, etc, etc… 🙁
I like those max Joules limits though. They force the airguns to be more reasonably powered – and therefore more accurate in theory. I’m a plinker, so I don’t need anything over 7,5 Joules and .177 caliber. Here, in the US market, there is only one ‘perfect’ break barrel for me after all to be honest, and that is HW30S. The others I listed earlier have a lot of compromises in ‘the more power than I needed’ department. 🙂
Yes Fish, I agree, precision can be spoilt by excessive energy.
However, I do enjoy shooting over a variety of distances, including those that require visual assistance, ie at least peep sights.
And my capacity for achieving accurate results is much enhanced by a flat trajectory.
Yes, I’m making a case for high powered airguns! 🙂
Besides, I am unhappy to be told what I can and cannot do. The Powerful Ones are not more adult than I! 🙂
Of course, I’m a springer guy. So, I always wear my breakbarrel springer glasses, talking about air guns. If I were to get into PCP world with scopes though, I would possibly enjoy a .25 cal Hatsan Flash or AT44 even just for plinking – and the choices would be unlimited then.
Fish,
Good point. The UK 12 ft-lb limit is for example not the handicap that the average British airgunner thinks it is.
In fact springers tend to be at their most accurate when the power to weight ratio is not much above 1 ft-lb per pound weight.
Of course, I am wearing my springer / plinker glasses. You are right that power is ideal for a springer. But with PCPs, I would want more. Sky is the limit then. 😉
For example, I really dislike the fiberoptic sights. But a well designed fiberoptic set that shines like discolights even under the dark cloudy skies might be useful for someone else with a different taste and requirement list. My issue is the fact that my kind is an endangered breed that is about to extinct. 🙂 I can see that, in the close future, my perfect airgun might very well vanish from the market. If Weihrauch decided to use more and more plastics and fiberoptic sights on the HW breakbarrel series, my perfect airgun world would finally come to an end.
Currently, the only perfect breakbarrel airguns – to my liking – in the US market are HW30 / 35 / 50 / 80 / 95 and Diana 350 Magnum… Second thought, this still makes a long list. Well, no worries then. 😉
My input would be to make a kids-size version of the adult version. Just as accurate but with an adjustable stock that goes down to 11″ length of pull. Sell aftermarket stocks that will lengthen the LOP in stages. If Weihrarch sold shorter HW30 stocks, that would be a great starter gun. If the HW30S has a 14″ LOP (I’m guessing without looking), the a 12″ stock with a 1″ spacer to grow on would be a great thing to have.
This is really a good idea. An HW30 with Umarex Embark like stock — in Weihrauch quality of course.
RG,
A stock that kids can use is exactly what the HW30s needs. Either a wood stock with spacers, or for the ultimate in quick, easy adjustability (though not traditional styling) something like the stock on the Ruger Precision Rimfire.
I imagine a .177 HW30 with 550 fps velocity and a Diana 240 177 Cal with HW30 sights and T05 trigger.
OK guys cut me some slack. Brain farts are perfectly acceptable for someone in their 70’s.
Beeman R7, not Benjamin. It wasn’t exactly a big thing in my mind for a long time.
I believe lighter, easier handling airguns are about to gain favor with me for the same reason.
Bags and bipods are looking more attractive for the heavy hitters. Target shooting takes more time than one-shot kills.
Don’t know if my left shoulder will ever be back to normal in the time I have left in this world.
It took 40 years for my collar bone to slide back into place after my first bike accident dislocated it. Talk about a surprise!
Ruined it all again with one too many pushups.
Bob,
I would like to correct the misunderstanding here. I was not giving you a hard time. I actually loved the idea of Crosman / Benjamin coming up with a design similar to the R7 / 30S.
Respectfully,
Fish
Fish,
Not to worry. No offense taken. Got your point and enjoyed the follow up comments. I am not a ‘Woke’ person and can actually laugh at myself as well.
My somewhat? dry humorous comment was just a way of jumping back into the conversation on the subject.
Bob M,
Hope you recover Quickly!
Switch to doing PLANKS instead of push-ups.
shootski
Shootski
The bike injury recovered after a month or so, but the function stays bent out of shape for years and once in a while it reminds you it’s still not right. Until one day it snaps, and all is well.
Probably should have seen a therapist, but it was not worth the trouble I still functioned fine. Just could not raise my left arm all the way straight up like the right and my collar bones don’t match up. No pain. Probably the result of scar tissue buildup.
The pushups just tore something and now, at this age, it takes months and months to heal.
I’m just happy I’m still fully functional at 75 and don’t want to push my luck any more trying to get into the shape of a 40-year-old.
Hard exercise is out, and I am happy and adjusting as required.
When standing to shoot I use the arm resting position or place my arm on the side of something and rest the rifle on my thumb. A sling really helps everything.
Bob M,
To your continued good health!
I’m only a year behind you and so far feel really fortunate to be fully functional given the hard use in the past.
Be well!
shootski
ROTFWL!
There are a lot of good points above, including why we still have cheap junk out there. It sells. Like it has been stated, there will always be someone to buy it.
B.B. and Readership,
In my response above to Roamin Greco did you notice the 5 shot group size?
Well a 10 shot group would typically grow a little according to B.B. so lets call the TEN shot group at 10 yards 0.15″ or at 10 meters 3.81mm.
Now for the question: How many of your airguns can shoot that small of a group even after you find the Golden Pellet, Weigh, Sort, Pellet Gage, roll, and offer prayers or burn incense to the Deity of your choosing?
Next Question: How many of the airguns that Tom tests routinely result in sub one and one half MOA groups at any distance much beyond the muzzle?
DISGRACEFUL isn’t it!
shootski
Ok shootski, I’ll bite…
For all I know, all of my airguns can be made to group within one minute of angle. However, to tune them to their capacity, is a skill I am not guilty of. 🙂
If I found such a person, I would not just pay her/ him to zero my airguns, but I would include a nice cup of tea (or coffee).
Oh heck, I would throw in a biscuit too! 🙂
hihihi,
A tune is not something you will get buying at a Big Box store.
A good cheese, some good bread and a decent wine would be much preferred by this tuner (PCP ONLY) ;^)
In reality you don’t need to have a shooting iron sighted in to shoot groups. The group size at 10 short-range units of your choice is certainly projectile dependent to a degree but with a large enough target sheet the projectiles will still shoot a group with NO sighting in. It may not be very close to the Point Of Aim (POA) but the group will form at the Point Of Impact (POI) regardless of the lack of sighting in skill by the shooter.
Group size is based on consistency of the propelling charge, proper projectile fit to bore, correct projectile length for twist rate, the barrel quality, the barrel harmonics, and the consistency of the shooters hold/aim.
If someone knows some other factors (beside the environmental ones) please chime in; I’m ready to learn.
shootski
PS: assume a clean barrel and poperly fouled if needed.
Yes shootski, you are right of course.
Trouble is, around here, I am the only one who services, tunes, zeroes and shoots my airguns, badly. 🙂
Thanks for inspiring supper…
hihihi,
I’ll be right over!
Michelsberg Piesporter would be nice ;^)
shootski
shootski, I don’t mind a little giant wine (Riesling) and will have a look-see at my local Supermarché for your suggested variety.
I’ll let you know when I have some… 🙂
I probably saw Piesport below the road I was on, on the far side of the bending river.
You see, a while back, I talked my girlfriend into using her MX5 (small convertible) on a road trip along the Mosel, during colourful harvest time. 🙂
What a great and romantic idea: driving for hours in the rain and occasionally dropping the roof to enjoy shivering in the cold winds of autumn… 🙁
hihihi,
It is romantic and fun!
Piesporter is like every other wine you need to find one that suits your pallet. Piesporter Michelsberg is a blend so usually thriftier compared to a straight Piesporter.
My spouse and I enjoy top down travel in our 2001 SAAB 9-3 Viggen all year round, day or night, however not in the rain or snow. Great Swedish heater, electric heated leather seats and a wind screen over the rear seats and behind the front bucket seat headrests and rollbar (we never “aquarium”…raise the side windscreens) allow for comfortable travel even when flying low at 32°f/0°C and cooler.
shootski
shootski, I am reminded of my Saab 9-3 convertible, the non-turbo version. Can’t find a picture but remember, it was a warm metallic red with cream leather interior. 🙂
I upgraded the manual gearbox to include cruise control.
What a nice car, even without wind deflector. 🙂
Anyway, I also remember the “AC” button on the dash. It didn’t actually seem to do much. So, when I booked the car in for it’s service, I requested they look into the air conditioning system (hoping all it needed was a simple re-gassing).
When they were done and I went to collect it, the surprising news was that they didn’t address the air-conditioning issue because the car didn’t have one, no compressor, nothing! 🙂
hihihi,
Our Viggen is gunmetal gray with midnight blue leather it has a compressor and the rest of the plumbing to go along with the AC button!
So on those 27.11111°C (79°f) days you started sweating!
shootski
shootski, probably.
What I do remember is, the more passengers under the roof, the less visibilty, due to glass misting up. 🙁
I also seem to remember that that placebo AC button was meant to be an off switch, which was really confusing.
However, it was THE most-pushed AC button I have ever had! 🙂
hihihi,
I’m so happy you finished the grapes; I like them with some of my cheeses as well.
The Viggen has a Climate Control system so you get Auto, Econ, Off and a temperature selector along with a bunch of buttons to select where the air blows to as well as the electric defrosters for rear window and side mirrors…i have had a few folks complain that they don’t know what to push next when I tell them to control their side of the cabins temperature to suit themselves.
Looks like you enjoyed your repast without me,
shootski
Shootski
I have to ask a question, you being an airman; did you choose the Viggen also because of the name? I suppose that you would like to be inside the cockpit of a JA 37.
Bill,
My family are all skiers and SAABs were wonderfully designed by the Swedes to drive in SNOW. Our first SAAB was a 99 and then we had 900s, 9000’s, 9-5s and 9-3s and currently have a 9-5 AERO and a 9-3 VIGGEN.
Would I like to fly Drakens and Viggens of course they are excellent designs that work(ed) well in some really difficult environments.
I like the automotive VIGGEN because it is an M3 killer if setup correctly!
shootski
Shootski
I made a comment yesterday that might be interesting for you. Up to now my new/old HW 90 seem to do its best with H&N 21gr. slugs. How is your experimenting with slugs in the ASP going on?
Bill,
I entered the PA Sub MOA Challenge at 25, 50, and 5×5@50 with the .177 it took about 25 or so tries with the JSB 10.03gr Knock Outs. The heavier Knock Outs13.43gr were sub 2 MOA at 25 and 50 but i couldn’t get them to go much smaller consistently. They looked on paper as though they were stable but apparently not spinning fast enough at a much slower MV compared to the 10.03gr K.O.s. I have a bunch of .22 caliber in various brands, sizes, and weights but haven’t gotten the time to get serious with the bigger caliber SIG ASP20 shooting bullets (slugs) at paper. It has however taken many a pest of the rodent variety so it is ready to try on paper in the near future.
shootski
Bill,
Read your comment “…comment yesterday…” GREAT! SPRING piston can shoot slugs…who would have guessed ;^b
So you have a device on the front of the HW 90? Do you think that device is doing something to help group size?
Glad you have found an accurate projectile!
:^)
shootski
OfShootski
Since my everyday range is 10 meters in my backyard I have to be as neighbor friendly as possible… So I don’t know, yet, the possibilities without add ons. And off course I am in the pursuit of the best projectile for this “long carabine”. Although I am not Hawkeye I make good use of either a Truglo front sight or a Niko Stirling 1-4 optic on a Dampa mount to preserve it.
Bill, I am interested in this idea of shooting weird shapes of lead accurately out of a Weihrauch 90.
Please, what head size H&N slugs are you using, 5,51mm or 5,53mm and at what air ram pressure?
Good morning Hi3
The label on the lower part of the tin can says 0.218. I have one more that is 0.217 but have not tried it yet since they are heavier, 23 grains I believe. I will let you know when I try them. Forgot to mention that it’s pressurized to approximately 20bars. At least that’s what I was told by the person who sold it to me. It behaves very nicely and cocks smoothly for the 30 joules I recorded with the chrono.
Thanks Bill.
You even answered what would have been my next question. 30, I’m only allowed 20 Joules here, hmm… 🙁
Still, I look forward to following your slug reports. 🙂
Wonder what your HW90 would do with these. Not slugs; FM calls them “hybrids,” “semi slugs” or “slug-ish” – pun intended. They did better than expected in the HW95 at 25 yds; “chronied” them at 488-490 FPS. Drop at that distance seemed to be 1” or less. The target was a steel bean can which was nicely tore up. Bean there, done that. 🙂
Hi3
Please excuse my forgetting French regulations although I am aware of them. For 20j maybe even the 21gr slugs will be quite heavy. Anyway I will keep you informed.
But now it’s time for the apperitive…
Bill: “Yamas !” 🙂
It’s unfair. Now you stepped on my toe.
Ricard is an absolute favorite to me. After all it’s a derivative to our ouzo.
I’m so happy to “meet” fellows like all of you through this blog.
Thank you all and BB mostly.
Oops Bill. What a lovely reply, however, I really wish I had not “…stepped on my [your] toe…”! 🙂
I admit that I zoomed in on your aperitif picture to see what was in your bottle. Then I had to look up what Tsipouro was and discovered that it’s considered similar to Ouzo, which I remember from holidays as tasting rather aniseedy (I wonder what non-aniseed flavoured tsipouro tastes like?). 🙂
So, in your good natured spirit, I tried to think of a French equivalent. Well, you saw my result, which was rather taste based than similar in alcohol level. 🙂
While I poured a couple of Ricard glasses*, my girlfriend joined in by adding a little salty snack. 🙂
Afterwards we left on a beautiful-weather, hour-and-fifty minutes bicycle ride. Like you, we both enjoy electrical assistance. See today’s blue sky in the pictured selfie… 🙂
It’s been a wonderful Sunday, thanks in small part to you! 🙂
*Ricard as a drink is something I discovered on a holiday on Les Embiez, one of his (Paul Ricard) islands. 🙂
Wow! There are a whole lot of comments on this subject. Some of them even pertain to this subject. 😉
I do not know if anyone in the above comments has mentioned this (there are too many for me to hunt through), but there are alternatives to the LabRadar. FX now has a readout for their little radar chrony (about time) and they also have a setup that is very similar to the LabRadar.
They keep this up and I might just have to trade in my Caldwell. Naaaah.
RidgeRunner,
So FX is offering a readout unit for their previously semi communicative Doppler RADAR. Previously it only talked out loud through a speaker, or through an Apple or Android “smartphone.” So now you can buy the FX Doppler RADAR unit for about US $200.00 and the display unit for almost US $300.00 and still not get all the downrange velocity data of the LabRadar all in one unit for virtually the same price; given the Sunk Cost of said smartphone needed for operating/storing data with the FX…hmm…and only approximately 500-1100FPS range of velocity detection!
WHAT A DEAL!!!!!
Sorry RidgeRunner I’ll stick with my LabRadar!
It would be nice if there was more competition to get more features and perhaps a slightly lower cost; but sadly it seems to be too small of a market.
shootski
BB,
Here is something you might want to give some thought to.
https://www.amazon.com/Uncommon-Radar-Sight-Mount-Gingers/dp/B09649L3TW/ref=sr_1_14?crid=LKRCL95VJZHG&keywords=shooting+radar&qid=1676813938&sprefix=shooting+radar%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-14
RR,
Some thought is being given.
BB
B.B.,
Read the words and look closely at the photograph(s) since it isn’t a 1913 PICATINNY rail.
Also the verbiage about the Red Dot is simply a distraction since the Red Dot needs to be sighted in to SOMETHING…what is that something with an invisible RADAR beam? It takes some elaborate equipment to pattern a RADAR Transmitter…just saying.
The notch on top works fine as long as you use your dominant eye. A simple soda straw laid into the notch helps some folks get it right along with remembering it is 3D device aiming and not 2D like an optical chronograph.
But I think you already know all that now.
Experience and a little help from your friends with LabRadar units goes a long way ;^)
shootski