The Beeman R7 – Part 4

by B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Photos and testing by Earl “Mac” McDonald


Beeman R7

Before we start, an update on the BSA laser designator ND-5. The price has been lowered significantly.

Man, did we have a LOT of interest and speculation about the R7 accuracy results. I guess you guys just like a little test now and then. I thought the clues I gave were huge, but some of you didn’t seem to grasp them, so today we’ll look more deeply into this rifle’s performance.

Well, how many of you guessed correctly what is wrong with out test Beeman R7? I thought you might see some similarity between what is happening with the R7 and what happened to me during the FWB 124 25-yard test. In fact, our new reader Steve picked up on that. The only difference between the two tests is that because the 124 has open sights, I was able to test it at 10 meters before relying on the scope sight, and so I knew for certain that the 124 should not give me vertical groups. The scope had to be the cause.

But Beeman doesn’t sell the R7 with open sights any more, so you can’t use that as a means of checking the rifle. However, when you see groups that are predominantly vertical, you know that the scope is probably to blame. And Mac did say he noticed this R7 has a very large droop when he first examined it. I missed his comment until this happened, but we carried the test a bit farther, so everybody will be able to see exactly what’s happening.

Because the rifle came sighted in from Pyramyd Air, Mac never checked to see where the scope was adjusted. He was shooting it just as it came from the box. He used RWS Superdomes, even though they’d given the largest groups in the previous test.

Several of you thought that Pyramyd Air simply shipped out a returned gun from another customer. That wasn’t the case. And they don’t do that the way those who implied that they do might think. When a gun comes back it gets tested before going out again. Pyramyd Air cannot afford to pay shipping on guns that have a problem, so it would be foolish to just turn around a gun that way.

I was hot off the 124 test, so after examining that large vertical RWS Superdome group in yesterday’s test I suggested that Mac crank in 40 clicks of down elevation and shoot another group. He did that, continuing to shoot RWS Superdomes, and the point of impact didn’t change! That’s clear proof that the scope is at fault. He cranked in another 40 clicks of down and shot a third group that was lower but also strung out vertically. We’re now down by 80 clicks.

After that, Mac dialed in a third set of 40 clicks down and this time he shot a well-rounded group. Finally! So, after 120 clicks of downward adjustment, the gun starts shooting circular groups with one called flier. Then, he dialed in a fourth set of 40 clicks of down and shot another elongated group!

What? That’s not supposed to happen. Once the groups start shooting in a round pattern, they’re not supposed to go back to vertical stringing. In fact, when the vertical adjustment is coil-bound, the group should be as tight as it will ever get, though not in the right location. However, looking at the whole picture at once — the 50 shots fired over 160 clicks of vertical adjustment — you’re struck by one obvious fact. There’s no sideways dispersion! It’s all up and down and very little side to side. In fact, in over 12 inches of up and down adjustment, there’s only about one inch of side-to-side. That says something, and the something that it says is that the scope’s the problem.


All shots were with RWS Superdomes. Looking at all 50 shots made during the vertical scope adjustments reveals this interesting image. There is very little sideways dispersion. The shots simply string up and down. Notice that the first 20 shots are intermingled despite 40 clicks of adjustment after the first 10 shots. Clearly, the erector tube was floating big time when this target was shot until the fourth group was fired.


After 120 clicks of down were applied, the group rounded into this pattern. It’s still not great, but at least it isn’t as vertical as the others.

After Mac shared these groups with me, I asked him to crank the scope all the way down until the adjustment knob quit turning. That would be where the erector spring becomes coil-bound. And even there, which was 200 more clicks down from what you see here, the group was still vertical.

I also asked him to try the JSB Exact 8.4-grain pellets that were the most accurate in the previous test. He did, and they strung out vertically, just like the Superdomes. They were a larger group than in the previous test. Crosman Premier 7.9-grain pellets delivered similar results, except the group was even larger.

So, what we have here is a scope that’s unresponsive. No amount of shimming or droop compensation will fix what cannot be fixed. At least we now know that, so we can try a different scope and see how the rifle shoots.

We also know that this particular R7 has a lot of droop. Regardless of what other scope we try, we’ll have to compensate for it.

How much better it is to know this, than to curse the darkness and send everything back to Pyramyd Air. Anyone who plans to use a telescopic sight should know how to analyze these sorts of results. You need to learn how this works, so you can diagnose problems like these when they arise.

I am pleased to be doing this report because it’ll answer so many questions I get about scope mounting and “scope shift.” I often have to drag the facts out of the person with the question, when all they want is “the answer.” One guy wanted to sight in his scope at 10 yards. Okay, I told him, but it’s going to be way off at every other range. He got angry about that and wanted to know what was the matter with scope makers that they couldn’t simply make a scope that worked the way the customer wants it to work.

Physics is the answer to that question, and not many of the people who ask it want to hear that. They don’t want to hear that since the scope and bore are in two different planes that there must be a planned intersection of the two. Because the pellet starts falling the moment it leaves the muzzle, the trajectory must be taken into account, as well.

I’m getting off the subject, which is this R7 and what we’re going to do about it. Well, Mac is going to mount a different scope on the gun after the Roanoke airgun show, and he’ll use a mount with some built-in droop compensation. We’re also talking about stripping the gun to see what’s happening in the powerplant. One of our readers also mentioned that his new R7 is dieseling just like Mac’s test gun (you can smell the diesel but not hear it), so perhaps we’ll discover something there, as well. At any rate, we are going to get to the bottom of this together.

83 Responses to “The Beeman R7 – Part 4”

  • Slinging Lead Says:

    BB

    I was wondering if you had a certain scope mount in mind. Would it be possible for Mac to test the Beeman one piece mount, with adjustable windage and elevation?

    http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/Beeman_5039_1_Pc_Mount_w_1_Rings_High_9_5_11mm_Dovetail/1932

    I have long wanted to try out this mount, but have been put off by the cost. I now think that if it allows you to mount an optically centered scope on a drooping rifle and adjust to POA, and hold its zero, it would be worth it. I have two sets of the B-Square adjustable mounts and would not buy them again. The scope cap screws are cheap, and stripped out. Also the scope stop pin is not long enough which allowed it to jump out of its hole and scratch the top of my beloved TX.

    I know what this rifle should be capable of, and I have heard that Mac is an excellent shot. I am hoping to see some clover leafs in the next report. It would also be interesting to see some groups shot from his 1990s R7 at the same range for comparison.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Slinging Lead,

      I will consider this mount, but I believe Mac already owns a BKL with droop compensation built in. If I’m not mistaken, he was planning on using that mount for the R7.

      But don’t despair. Maybe we will try the Beeman mount, too.

      B.B.

  • Frank A Says:

    I have 2 R-7′s vintage 1983 and 1984 from Santa Rosa days. Well, I have been shooting them for all these years and still able to knock off a standing pieces of chalk at 50/60 feet repeatedly – One has a BSA scope, the other the original sights and both perform equally well , even though my sight is not what it used to be. Yes, they are heirloom pieces just as the RWS 45 I purchased in 1982. I hope that the problem described herein is indeed the scope as I would be sad to see that R-7 quality is not as it once was.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Frank,

      I think the R7′s quality is exactly where it has always been. This one just has a scope problem, and we’re going to fix it.

      Mac is also going to test his personal R7 that I tuned for him ten years ago, so we have a comparison.

      B.B.

  • Milan Says:

    B.B. and all of you who know i have a question regarding dieseling effect i am just curious this is just a worst case scenario :) -say i have an airgun that i dont want to tinker with and piston seal is overlubed ,how can i degrease piston seal without dissasembling entire gun is there any solvent for airguns on the market -or better yet some DIY solution(i doubt that :) ) ?!

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Milan,

      If you don’t want to disassemble the gun there is only one thing you can do. Shoot the gun a lot, to burn off the excess lubricant. Use heavier pellets to keep the gun from detonating explosively. It may take several thousand shots to quiet a gun that has been overlubed.

      B.B.

  • DaveUK Says:

    BB:
    I kinda felt like a new hospital Intern making his first diagnosis.
    “The body is cold and stiff.Has the central heating been turned off?” lol
    Enjoyed the whole exercise though,despite losing the patient :)
    DaveUK

    • Milan Says:

      Dave i would like central heating turned on today thank you :)

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Dave,

      We haven’t lost this patient yet. The scope is the issue and we know that for sure now. The next step will be to mount a known good scope on the rifle and test it with that.

      And we are considering a stripdown, to see about the dieseling.

      B.B.

  • Milan Says:

    B.B. there is no stupid questions wright ,well i got one :) ! Is it possible to switch barrels calibers on Diana 34 like changing barrels (17 barrel on 22 gun ) like 2 in 1 ?

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Milan,

      It is very easy to switch calibers with the RWS 34. Besides the barrel, no other parts are different. But it does require the gun to be disassembled.

      B.B.

    • twotalon Says:

      Keep something in mind….
      When you change barrels, you have to sight back in again.
      An easy one to work with is the RS2 that I have. A large setscrew holds the barrel in. It does have a tendency to loosen up unless a lot of loctite is used.
      The gun came with both barrels. Sounds like a good deal, but the gun is a piece of junk.

      twotalon

      • Milan Says:

        I dont know but it sounds interesting- BEEMAN RS2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCXz3XnCpAY this (Beeman)mark of gun is hard (if even possibile )to find here

        • Robert from Arcade Says:

          I agree with Two Talon on the Beeman switch barrel gun. I owned mine for about three hours, it keyholed pellets at 10 yards right out of the box. There were other issues as well on my sample. Back it went.
          The idea of changing calibers is nice ,but works best if the sights are mounted on the barrels, and they stay with the barrel when they are seperated from the receiver,Robert.

          • Slinging Lead Says:

            Milan

            Beeman’s good reputation comes from the fact that historically they bought rifles from Weihrauch and FWB and slapped their name on them, along with more American styled stocks.

            In America, RWS/Umarex USA does the same thing with Diana rifles and a few others.

            Beeman was sold to a larger corporation a while back, and then sold again later to a Chinese company.

            The Beeman RS2 is a cheap Chinese rifle that the owners of the company decided to sully their good name by putting their brand on it. Sure, they probably sold alot of them to Wal-Mart and K-mart and other marts. But they have a puffy sticker on the side of them for crying out loud. Nothing repels me from a rifle like puffy stickers. Its junk.

        • pcp4me Says:

          Milan,

          Take twotalons word on that gun being a piece of junk! I went through three of them in short order and every one was defective and returned. Thank God I bought them at Wally World. They are chinese made and the QC is simply horrible!

  • twotalon Says:

    B.B.

    It was obvious to me that severe droop would prevent the scope from staying within positive control limits without some serious droop compensation. Been there.

    Lacking extreme droop mounts, I would have centered the scope then shot a very large target to see how the gun shot. But in this case, it sounds like the scope would not have centered up right….so the scope is part of a COMBINATOIN problem.

    Next…Why is there so much droop?
    Breech seal way too thick? Been there.
    End of barrel sticking out proud of the breech block? Been there.
    Breech block not machined down far enough? Been there.
    Something wrong with the cocking linkage not allowing the breech to fully close? Have not been there yet. Thank God.
    At the same time, does it look like the breech is sealing well? Possibly not. Been there.
    Is the breech lockup functioning right? Not been there.
    If the seal looks adequate, then this should not be the cause of the erratic firing behavior.

    Piston seal is next…..
    Beaver eaten seal? Been there.
    Really bad looking compression chamber? Been there.

    Since a teardown is needed for this, then everything else gets looked at too.

    twotalon

  • CJr Says:

    Ah, I love a mystery! BB, give us another one someday.
    -CJr

  • pcp4me Says:

    BB or Edith,

    Could you check something for me? PA has Gamo “Glow Fire” pellets listed as “lead free”. I have some of these and they sure look and feel like lead to me. I also have the “Blue Flame” pellets by Gamo and these are obviously NOT lead. Big difference between the look and feel of the Glow Fire and the Blue Flame. I think some one got confused when the wrote the description in the catalog. If I am not mistaken the blue flames were meant to be light weight “supersonic” pellets and the glow fires were meant to be normal weight lead hunting pellets.

    Btw for all of you out there who haven’t tried the Glow Fire Gamo’s, do so as soon as possible. In all three of my spring guns these things shoot incredibly accurately! In fact accuracy is on par with my “bench mark pellets”, which are the H & N Match Finale. And penetration and expansion with the glow fires is simply incredible. The pellet expands to make a flat ring with the diamond shaped tip in the middle and drives extremely deep in ballistic putty! Haven’t had a chance to try these at long ranges, but if they are just as accurate at 50 yards these will become my hunting pellet of choice!

    I have a used Sumatra 2500 carbine in .177 caliber that I traded for my Beeman R9 even up coming in today and I hope to get out in the country to check it for long range accuracy tomorrow. BB said a week or two ago that I could trade the R9 even up. Did not think I could, but found a gun on yellow forum who just wanted a different gun. I also bought the “moderator” which was on it and some pellets and a quick disconnect fill probe off him for a good price. Anxious for the UPS man to come knocking at my door now!

    BB, what is the difference between a “moderator” and a silencer? The owner of the gun says it quiets the gun down to “no noise at all”! I also see these on guns for sale called “ldc” and a “back yard friendly muzzle brake”? Are these just fancy names for silencers? They are even offered stand alone on the yellow forum. Are there a lot of people out there breaking the law or are these things really legal?

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      pcp4me,

      There is no difference between a moderator and a silencer. About 15 years ago, U.S. airgunners started calling silencers moderators because the Brits were calling them that. I guess they figured that if the name was different the feds wouldn’t know what they were talking about.

      The terms Lead Dust Collector (LDC) and Decibel Reduction Device (DRD) have also been used in this same way. These are not names but codes to protect the guilty.

      Gamo Glow Fire pellets appear to be lead. Gamo has printed a lead warning on the package, and why do that if it isn’t needed?

      I’ve been looking for something quick and fun to test for blogs while I’m at Roanoke. Maybe I’ll pit Glow Fires against the best target pellets in a couple target rifles.

      B.B.

      • pcp4me Says:

        BB,

        Great! Looking forward to a blog on glow fires vs target pellets in really good target guns. My three spring guns are (well 2 now the R9 is gone :-( ) Beeman R9, Tech Force 59, and Crosman Storm XT. Obviously not target guns, but in my basement was printing .10 – .15″ ctc one hole groups at 25′ which is as good as I can shoot these spring guns even with the expensive H & N match pellets.

        These may not sound like good 25′ groups, but believe me some cheaper (rws hobby and a few others) pellets shot 3/4 to 1″ groups at the same 25′ range. When I can put 5 shots into one tiny hole I get excited, no matter the range!

        I am looking forward to testing them in the Sumatra 2500 carbine as it is pcp and no recoil. However I do not have a good rest in the basement as I use a cheap light weight table as a rest and it is hard to eliminate all gun wobble with my set up. Probably should pop for a good stable portable shooting rest to use?

    • kevin Says:

      pcp4me,

      Congratulations on the trade straight across. That B.B. guy was right again. Thanks for the heads up on Glow Fire pellets. Never tried them. Hope you’ve got some heavy pellets to shoot in your new Sumatra. Kodiaks?

      Question: “what is the difference between a “moderator” and a silencer?”
      Answer: spelling. “ldc” and a “back yard friendly muzzle brake” are other names for the same thing.

      “Are there a lot of people out there breaking the law?” Here’s a good article to help you decide:

      http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/silencers/

      kevin

      • pcp4me Says:

        Kevin,

        Yes I have Beeman Kodiaks and Crow Magnum and Ram Jets and Predators. Also the owner is including a part tin of the eun jun pellets that were designed for this gun. The glow fires may be too light for this gun on full power as they weight in at 7.8 grains.

        I am really excited about getting this gun. Wanted one for a VERY long time. Seems like it could be a hunters dream. It is light weight, a repeater, a lever action which I love, powerful, and reportedly very accurate. Only way I could see to improve it is make it selective fire full automatic or semi automatic.

        • kevin Says:

          pcp4me,

          Never owned a Sumatra. Your enthusiasm is contagious. I think Rocket Jane was given a Sumatra while she was in China? Her host hunted with the Sumatra and showed her how to use the power wheel to adjust the power of the gun to increase shot count while he hunted.

          Don’t overlook the MTM Predator shooting table as an inexpensive option to provide a more stable shooting platform. Lightweight and folds flat when you’re done.

          kevin

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      pcp4me,

      I checked the Glow Fire pellet listing on Gamo’s site, and they’re not lead-free. I removed that wording from the description.

      Thanks,
      Edith

    • Slinging Lead Says:

      pcp4me

      Thanks for the tip on the pellets. I will be ordering some of those next time around.

      Anything that quiets the report of a rifle is a silencer. If it cannot be removed, for example the shroud on a TX200, it is legal in most places. Michigan is an exception I think. No Marauders either.

      If it can be removed and used to quiet the report of a fire arm, even if it destroys the ‘LDC’ , even if it quiets the report just a little bit, it is illegal, and it is a Federal crime.

      You can own silencers legally, but you must pay a somewhat substantial tax and file some paperwork with the appropriate authorities. The ‘moderator’ also must have a serial number on it for identification purposes. I suppose they issue you one, and you have it engraved, I don’t know.

      BB has one I think.

      • Alan in MI Says:

        Michigan is iffy. There was an unfavorable interpretation a while back, and PA (based on the restrictions on their website) is taking the conservative approach and not shipping shrouded rifles here. Many other places do, and there are stores physically located here that sell them with no trouble.

        If I ever get “authorization” from my bride to purchase a new air rifle, I’d sure like to be able to order my Marauder or Air Arms S410 from PA, but fear that won’t be an option. I might be willing to drive down and pick it up, if that would work . . . . otherwise I’ll need to go somewhere else.

        Alan in MI

        • twotalon Says:

          There is another possible problem…
          Let’s say you want to hunt small game with a ‘silenced’ airgun. Or even hunt any game animal with a silenced gun of any kind. Even if you have a permit.
          Silencers are illegal for hunting game in this state. A game warden who is knowledgeable about airguns will bust you. No matter what kind of gun, permit or not.

          twotalon

          • Alan in MI Says:

            Very true – and it is probably the case in many other states too . . .

            Not a problem for me though, since I don’t hunt. I do occasionally use it for pest elimination on my property (red squirrels, groundhogs etc.), which is legal in my municipality even though hunting is not.

            Alan in MI

            • twotalon Says:

              You are lucky in that respect.
              Red squirrels and ground hogs are considered game animals here in ohio.
              The only things considered pest species are sparrows, starlings, pidgeons, and under some circumstances, blackbirds.

              twotalon

              • Slinging Lead Says:

                Alan

                It is good to hear you can own the TX and the M-Rod. They are both winners. Orin and Tunnel Engineer both seem to like their TXs. Where in the heck is Orin anyway?

                If quiet is what you want, get the M-Rod and install a de-pinger.

                • Orin Says:

                  S.L.,

                  Orin was sucked into reading too many airgun blogs and forums and got in trouble with the wife. When the pigeons and starlings started breeding, he had to decide whether to spend more time shooting or reading, and unfortunately, fell far behind in reading/posting comments. I hear he still loosely follows the Yellow and perpetually lurks around the PA blog, but since his wife has certain man parts in a vice grip, he now has to use a little more discretion when it comes to sitting in front of the computer.

                  Funny you mentioned the TX and Marauder in the same sentence, because Orin has been begging Santa for a .25 Marauder “squirrel punisher” for Christmas.

                  - Orin

      • jim Says:

        “If it can be removed and used to quiet the report of a fire arm, even if it destroys the ‘LDC’ , even if it quiets the report just a little bit, it is illegal, and it is a Federal crime”

        Not strictly true anymore:

        http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15340

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Jim,

          Actually, it is still just as true as when I wrote it. The defendant spent a lot of time incarcerated and the only reason he got off on appeal was a technical weakness in the prosecution’s case. The same appeal will probably not work for another person.

          The law still stands as written.

          B.B.

    • twotalon Says:

      You forgot ‘shroud’. Same thing….silencer.

      twotalon

  • Fred PRoNJ Says:

    Yes, BB, take your time but hurry up. See you next week! Et tu, Kevin?

  • kevin Says:

    It sounds to me like this new R7 is behaving normally. The scope seems to be the culprit.

    In my limited experience a new Weihrauch needs to have 2 tins (1,000) of pellets shot through it before it’s broken in and settles down (this info and assurance courtesy of B.B. long ago). I’ve only bought 2 new diana’s and they seemed to settle down quicker. Although I never opened them up many say the diana/rws guns don’t have the amount of internal lubrication that the weihrauch guns do from the factory so this might explain the quicker settling down period. Even after an old gun gets tuned you need to break it in with a tin or two of pellets.

    If you have the desire and knowledge by all means tear the gun down, clean it, deburr, apply aftermarket lubes, etc. Me, I’d just shoot the R7 and keep and eye on the cocking lever. If it started rubbing (like many of the new ones do and some of the old ones too) I’d install the inserts since they’re only $3.50.

    If I liked the gun I’d send it off to a good tuner. Slinging Lead can attest to what an experienced tuner can do to an R7.

    kevin

    • twotalon Says:

      If they lube them the way my 97K was lubed they should not detonate or smoke. It had very heavy clear grease instead of oil. Just a thin layer of it. Trigger parts had a different color grease.
      Looks like an almost lifetime lube.

      twotalon

      • kevin Says:

        twotalon,

        Agreed. IF they lube them the way they should they should not detonate. Unfortunately, I don’t think the factory workers pay the time and attention during lubing each and every gun. Fairly easy to get too much of a good thing in front of the seal. Sounds like your 97K received the attention it deserved at the factory.

        kevin

        • twotalon Says:

          There was no need to fear lack of lubrication with my 97 the way there was with my 48. It was pretty dry everywhere.
          I did wipe it out and give it some moly on the piston and in the chamber while I had it apart. The piston showed a bit of a small scuff mark just behind the seal. I polished that out.

          twotalon

  • CowBoyStar Dad Says:

    b.b., I would like to make one thing clear. I was one of those who thought perhaps the gun had been returned.
    I’d like you to know that in no way was I meaning to disparage a very fine company. Where I work we have that any returned photographic equipment is sent back to the manufacturer unless we have a long relationship with the customer returning the gear and have his assurance that he is only returning it because it doesn’t meet his expectations.
    Even then, as you state with Pyramyd, our policy is to thoroughly check the item to ensure that it is as new.
    But there have been times where the best laid plans fail and somehow a piece of gear that should have gone back to the manufacturer ends up on the shelf (I once had the embarrassing experience of taking a ‘new’ camera out of the box to show a customer and we both looked incredulously at what looked a lot like dried turkey gravy all over the back of the camera…turns out it had been returned after Christmas and somehow missed the system).
    Again…in no way was I implying that Pryamyd’s policy was to resell merchandise that was not up to snuff.

    • Gene Says:

      I was in the same boat, thinking it was a returned or bad rifle, and I too meant to harm to our fine company. But, I had a 822 come with a .177 barrel, which was made good by Daisy, so sometimes dodo does happen. I had sent them a broken 822 and got a new one back, it wasn’t Pyramydair.

  • Brian in Idaho Says:

    BB

    Quick update on the Beeman P17 vs. P3

    Sighted in at 10m with 4X scope, shot 10 rounds and made one, .323″ dia hole using a rest and bag. Chrony is 428fps high / 419fps low, 10 shot string, no fliers, and shooting RWS R10 match 7 gr wad-cutters. Other than the slightly stiffer second stage trigger pull (vs P3), I can’t find any faults with this gun especially for the price.

    Update on the 2240 post-power adjuster install. Now getting 60(ish) shots per Co2 cart with power adjusted down at 390fps. Shot till the Co2 cart had just a “fizzle” left in it when released.

    Sure beats those 20+ shots at full power (stock) I was getting. Dont need 480fps for 10 meter shootin in the o’l garage!

    Brian in Idaho

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Brian,

      Your report is a real reason to get that power modification. Thanks for sharing that with all of us.

      B.B.

      • Brian in Idaho Says:

        Agreed, this 2240 is a tinkerers dream. I should mention that most of the Power Mod makers don’t tell you that you will need shorter screws for the install. I just cut down the top, slot-head style screw because it has a nice chamfered edge and fits and looks good in the counter bore in the dovetail. The lower screw, I changed out to a socket head style at the right length cause that screw is nearly impossible to access straight on with a screw driver.

        That screw needs changing even if you are leaving the gun stock!

    • kevin Says:

      Brian in Idaho,

      What 4x scope and mount did you use on your P17?

      kevin

      • Brian in Idaho Says:

        Kevin

        BSA 4X-30mm Objective. Got it at Cabelas on sale for $39-ish, decent optics and thin reticle and eye relief is about 2″ to 6″ . A little “jiggly” at 4x but, price and size/lengthy were just right with lo-mounts. Objective clears front ramp sight on the P17 by about .20″ and eye piece clears rear sight about same with sight screwed down all the way. Fixed parallax at 50 yards but…focus ring on eye piece takes care of aberation down to about 8 meters. Garage range here is 36 feet from muzzle to target face so 1o meter range-ish.

        Scope ength is about 1″ less overall than the P17, so that works out well too with scope centered on rails. Makes a great hand/palm hold for cocking too!

        Brian

        • kevin Says:

          Brian in Idaho,

          Thank you. I’m assuming that the P17 has a 3/8″ or 11mm rail built into the gun or did you use the weaver/picatinney mount that came with your scope?

          kevin

          • Brian in Idaho Says:

            11mm molded into the top of the “slide”. It’s pretty durable polymer stuff. I saved all the extra rails/piccatinys and other neo-tactical stuff that came with scope! They should work on something I have or… do I need to buy something that needs them? Hmmmm?

            • kevin Says:

              Brian in Idaho,

              Thanks again. Have a friend that lets me shoot his P17. He also recently acquired the Alecto (from Pyramyd Air) and it’s a very fine pistol as well. I need to contact PA to find out where my commission check is. I can name ten people off the top of my head that I’ve sent to PA to buy stuff. LOL!

              kevin

              • Brian in Idaho Says:

                Kevin, I do the same but can you believe it?…no commish checks!

                You can have 50% of my commish check from PA, 50% from my 100% of $0 won’t make me feel too bad!

  • Matt61 Says:

    Ha, I see I was right about the scope…. Is it possible to say just what is wrong with this scope that will adjust windage but not elevation? I’m reminded of a story about a gunwriter who had a nice model bolt-action that wouldn’t shoot at all. He did everything to accurize it including a trigger job, glass bedding, fire-lapping and so one without any improvement whatsoever. Finally, he concluded that if the gun didn’t respond to any of this then he must have discovered some new principle, but he couldn’t figure out what it was. He finally left it as something to do with “barrel harmonics.”

    An arm injury has kept Matt the Merciless out of action for awhile. I believe it may be tendinitis from my quick-drawing practice. Surely, this would have been a handicap in the Old West. The condition also sheds light on another nice feature of the IZH 61. It’s almost the only one of my guns that I can handle now. But I can see that being truly merciless is not easy to do and takes a lot of work.

    Matt61

    • BG_Farmer Says:

      Matt,
      Scope problems suck. I think I wrote about my .30-’06′s problem scope. The first shot would be right on target (so I didn’t suspect the scope), then it would start scattering shots by ever increasing amount. I thought it was barrel free-float problem, copper-fouling, ammo, and so on ad nauseam. When it still did the same thing after a fairly good accurizing job and insane (for me) cleaning regimen, in desparation, I changed the scope to a spare, and it even shot better than ever before (.75″@100yards) and stacked the cheapest Remingtons and Winchesters on top of each other.

    • twotalon Says:

      It would not have mattered if the scope was bad or not. There was so much droop that the scope would not work anyway.
      The other problems? Still to find out.

      twotalon

  • kevin Says:

    Brian in Idaho,

    Thank you. I’m assuming that the P17 has a 3/8″ or 11mm rail built into the gun or did you use the weaver/picatinney mount that came with your scope?

    kevin

    • Brian in Idaho Says:

      11mm molded into the top of the “slide”. It’s pretty durable polymer stuff. I saved all the extra rails/piccatinys and other neo-tactical stuff that came with scope! They should work on something I have or… do I need to buy something that needs them? Hmmmm?

    • Brian in Idaho Says:

      Kevin, looks like my link to the scope “evaporated”.

      I must have committed a blog felony?

      • kevin Says:

        Brian in Idaho,

        No links to competitors sites that sell similar stuff to PA. Only fair. I’ve made the mistake before and got slapped. Part of the learning curve. Reminds me of Sister Lynn when I was in Catholic school.

        kevin

  • Wildey Says:

    Dear sirs,
    I’ve been reading this blog for quite a few years and really enjoy the discussions and topics.
    I’d be the first to admit that i’m a lousy shot with an air-rifle and that I don’t know nearly enough about them. Still, reading the blog for the last few days bids me to point out the following : http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/video . I would pay special attention to the scope section because as soon as i saw the vertical stringing in the previous blog it was obvious to ME that there was at the very least something wrong with the scope.
    Again I am hardly an expert but why deny yourself a (potentially) valuable resource?

    Respectfully yours,

    Wildey

    • kevin Says:

      Wildey,

      Glad you came into the light. Thanks for posting. Great link that is spot on for the scope topic and vertical stringing problem.

      What airgun are you currently shooting?

      kevin

  • Slinging Lead Says:

    Kevin

    I can certainly attest to the pure enjoyment of shooting a tuned gun.

    Some of you may not know who Paul Watts is. http://www.springgunning.com/ He does custom tunes on fine European air rifles such as FWB, Weihrauch, and Air Arms. If you want motion picture special effects you go to ILM, if you want a hot rod you go to Chip Foose, if you want a Beeman rifle tuned you send it to Paul Watts.

    His talents are so highly regarded and sought after, that he often has such a backlog that he stops accepting new work. When he is accepting new work be prepared for a 6 month wait. And an advanced tune costs several hundred dollars. His tunes are ‘the absolute finest work that can be done bar none.’

    I couldn’t possibly take the anticipation of waiting 6 months, so I short circuited the whole process and bought one of Mr. Watt’s personal guns, a 90′s vintage Beeman R7 with an advanced tune.

    * Maccari Spring
    * Custom Nylon/Delrin Guides
    * Buttoned piston
    * Advanced piston seal
    * Receiver milled and honed
    * Delrin cocking arm slider
    * Trigger cleaned, lubed, and adjusted
    * Barrel choked

    The bluing on the action looks perfect, as though it rolled out of the factory yesterday. The stock is absolutely gorgeous. It has a beautiful grain, very dark stain, and hand-cut checkering on the pistol grip. I lack the words to describe how much better the hand-cut checkering looks in comparison to the pressed kind. Some areas of the stock have that tiger-eye look to them. It is the long stock version that covers the breech-block linkage.

    Firing the gun is absolutely dreamy. So easy to cock. You can literally do it all day long. It is light and shoulders quickly.
    “blut” That is the sound it makes when fired. “blut”
    Except it happens faster than you can say it. And it is silky smooth.

    I used it with open sights for a couple weeks, in spite of my poor vision because it was so light and fun to shoot that way. Just today, I took the scope off of another rifle and mounted it to the PW R7 to wring out all the accuracy I could. My first 5 shot group at 10 yards was perfectly centered vertically and went through one hole not much bigger than a .177 pellet. No sight in necessary. About an inch and a half low, but it should be shooting low at that short distance.

    10 yards isn’t very far, but I shot off my knee with no attempt at an artillery hold. I plan to take it outside tomorrow and use a bench.

    Much thanks to Kevin, who pointed the rifle out to me, and to Volvo who started my obsession with Paul Watts tunes to begin with. In fact, BB, Kevin, Volvo, and Wacky Wayne all deserve my gratitude for steering me toward the R7. It is the ultimate spring-powered fun gun in my opinion. I couldn’t be happier with mine.

    • kevin Says:

      Slinging Lead,

      That’s the first hand report on your R7 I’ve been waiting for. Good for you. What scope did you mount on that fine speciman? What pellet are you shooting into one hole off your knee? Inquiring minds want to know.

      I’ve shot many tuned springers. There’s nothing that compares to the “Thunk” of a Paul Watts tuned gun.

      The R8 I sent to Paul took 11 months to get back since it had some unique issues. It took 6 months to receive the HW55T back and that was only a refresh of his prior tune. Custom work can take two years or more. No question the wait is agonizing but well worth it in the end. Since he hasn’t been willing to take in any new work for almost two months and there’s no indication of when he’ll take in new work you got quite a deal on a special gun. Congratulations. Glad you bought it because I was fighting the enormous urge even though one of my R7′s has a PW tune.

      kevin

  • Wildey Says:

    Oh yeah,
    I almost forgot, BB if it is not a conflict of interest I’d love to see reports on the Airforce Condor, Talon and Talon SS.

    Wildey

  • rikib Says:

    They started annual “sniper competition” here in Georgia at Fort Benning. Wish wish I had known before hand, just to watch :) , could never dream of competing with those guys. All respect goes out to them!

    rikib

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      rikib,

      When I was working at AirForce, one of the Ft. Benning sniper trainers contacted me about an airgun to teach holding skills to snipers. I suggested the Talon SS and he bought it.

      Later, he called me to say that when the day was slow he would pull out the SS and challenge snipers to shoot half-inch groups at 50 yards from the prone position with it.

      B.B.

  • Wildey Says:

    @ Kevin: I shoot a .177 Gamo Shadow 1000 with a 4×32 Gamo scope and a GTR III trigger.
    @ CJr: Thank you for the links, I can’t believe I missed those when I read the archive.

  • casey Says:

    so um is there anyway to get open sights on the r7 or what about peep sights? i really want to buy this R7 right now in the 20. cal however i do not want it without some sort of sights, scopes add to the weight and i would not want to use one on a rifle of this size. so does pyramid air sell anything that would fit it without machining? i liike at the hw30 but it only comes in 177 and id much rather have the r7 20. please help!

    Also i like the tech force 79 but I shoot left handed, is the stock ambidextrous or right handed only?

  • CJr Says:

    casey,
    The R7 has a 11mm dovetail for mounting sights. A red dot is light, as is a laser. Could these be useful to you? If you’re not particular you could get a peep or notch sight on the 11mm rail and jury-rig a front sight by putting a small hose clamp up there with the tightening screw at the top for a “blade”. Of course, such a beautiful rifle deserves better than that. Maybe if you painted the clamp black it wouldn’t look so cheesey.
    -CJr

  • casey Says:

    thanks for the replies checked the up close images on the tech force, for sure right handed only, what a bummer, i think the r7 is ambidextrous although its not under that in the pyramyd air sight, quick suggestion please update that cause its really hard for left handed people to find decent rifles because is hasn’t been updated in a long while, gosh i really want that R7 its so almost perfect for what I’m looking for just want good open sights on it. is there any other rifle you would recommend? i was thinking the 22. cal hw 50s, but i just saw that the stock is right handed as well, and its trigger isn’t as pretty and the stock is much more bland. I hate to ask but can you help me a bit? I have a talon ss and a Benjamin disco, but i don’t shoot either, bought a trigger blade and 2 stage trigger kit for the disco but didn’t have the tools to tap the holes to make it 2 stage although i installed the springs and blade.
    anyway looking for basically a 20. cal r7 with open sights.

  • CJr Says:

    casey,
    I take it you don’t have a scuba tank or convenient access to a shop, or you’re plain tuckered out from pumping 50-60 pumps all the time. Is that why the Talon and Disco are lying fallow? You know the Talon is convertible to CO2? And the Disco, too. But then you have to find a convenient place to fill CO2 bottles every two to four weeks.

    But that’s not why you’re calling. You want a springer and in .22. The question always begs to be asked: are you planning on hunting? If not, then go with .177. There is no other reason to shoot .22. I am not a hunter, I’m a 10m target shooter.

    Now, if you’re hunting and want a springer and want .22 you’re opening up Pandora’s box on this blog because you will get 100 different guns to choose from from 59 different readers. I imagine tomorrow you will be inundated with choices. But first we’ll need to know what animals you’re interested in and at what distance and what price range you’re in. Then, after that, since you have two PCPs you know you’re not going to be satisfied with just one springer. Ho, I think you’d better back out now.

    I am mostly a PCP guy and I have a scuba tank and a place to fill it within 10 miles. I have the Talon SS .177 on air (but CO2 ready), Marauder .22 on air, Daisy 953, Walther Lever Action, Crosman 1077, a S&W CO2 revolver, and just recently an IZH-46M single pump pistol – no I don’t because it’s sick and I just sent it back to the PA hospital – yes I do because I know it will come back healthy and ready to play. I love PCP.

    For springers I have an IZH-61, a Ruger AirHawk, and a Gamo Recon. So you see I’m not much of a springer guy. Probably because I just never connected with the right one. I don’t know what I’d buy for a springer. Maybe a TX200, but I sold my wheelbarrow and now I don’t have anything to carry all that money in.

    I hope you get some help tomorrow.

    -CJr

  • casey Says:

    casey,
    I take it you don’t have a scuba tank or convenient access to a shop, or you’re plain tuckered out from pumping 50-60 pumps all the time.
    Is that why the Talon and Disco are lying fallow? You know the Talon is convertible to CO2? And the Disco, too. But then you have to find a convenient place to fill CO2 bottles every two to four weeks.

    there is no place i know of convieniently close to refill, i have the benji pump and and purchased some adapters to fill the talon ss, I don’t shoot co2 because it isn’t free. I believe you shouldn’t have to pay money all the time to shoot, plus with co2 weather plays a roll and i live in Fort Worth Tx,
    well my talons air tank and the adapters got stuck together (i believe it was a seal of sorts that maybe was taken off) but now id have to buy a tank 170.95 plus AirForce 1/8″ and 1/4″ BSPP Refill Adapter set 21.80 so already looking at spending 200 dollars on a gun i dont personally like to much, the disco is too heavy after the moderator, and leapers 9*40

    But that’s not why you’re calling. You want a springer and in .22. The question always begs to be asked: are you planning on hunting? If not, then go with .177. There is no other reason to shoot .22. I am not a hunter, I’m a 10m target shooter.

    i have a 177 cal springer its a winchester 1000x and its way to loud and way too heavy plus all my other air guns are 22.cal. I really want to try a 20. cal but beeman is the only option really and that r7 is the best option for what im looking for i emailed that guy and he sent me a link for the hw30 which is a 177 cal. he gave me no info on the cost to actually have open sights put on the r7, i was hoping tom would update this post with some sort or open or peep sight option.

    I am mostly a PCP guy and I have a scuba tank and a place to fill it within 10 miles. I have the Talon SS .177 on air (but CO2 ready), Marauder .22 on air, Daisy 953, Walther Lever Action, Crosman 1077, a S&W CO2 revolver, and just recently an IZH-46M single pump pistol – no I don’t because it’s sick and I just sent it back to the PA hospital – yes I do because I know it will come back healthy and ready to play. I love PCP.

    How do you like the Walther lever action? I’ve eyed that a few times over would be a nice replacement for my crappy red ryder lol, please give me some info on this PA hospital you speak of, is this open to the public? i bought almost all my airguns from PA (sorry the benjamin 392 is way cheaper at academy :)

    For springers I have an IZH-61, a Ruger AirHawk, and a Gamo Recon. So you see I’m not much of a springer guy. Probably because I just never connected with the right one. I don’t know what I’d buy for a springer. Maybe a TX200, but I sold my wheelbarrow and now I don’t have anything to carry all that money in.

    the tx200 is over 9lbs without a scope. which would be ok if i was bag resting but thats not what im looking for right now, want something no heavier than 7lbs with open sights in 20. cal or 22. yes i shoot the ocasional crow and rats backyard backs into a small lake with a big wooded field, rats get in my small shed and like to chew on crap, they also run on my fence. i live in a neighborhood so i need something not loud. the disco is quiet with the moderator, but cant have open sights at the same time and i prefer those to a scope i know its weird right but much more fun, lighter and easier in low light.

    I hope you get some help tomorrow.
    -CJr

    thanks but so far your the only one to help me and i sincerely appreciate all the helpful info youve provided. living the left handed live makes everything harder, oh p.s. if i deciede to try 177 again it will most likely be an air arms s200 target, THAT THING IS LIKE A DREAM!

  • Mr B. Says:

    casey,

    Good morning. Looks like a bunch of the guys are sleeping in this morning. Any air- gunsmith can cut the dovetail necessary to mount the front sight of your choice on the R7. If my memory is sorta working, the R7 came with sights at one time. I’d buy them and have them installed on the R7.

    Hopefully Vince will see this post and chime in with some help. Oops he might not cause we’re posted on as blog written last October which not many people will see–shame on CJr and me for not getting your question on the current blog. http://airgun-academy.pyramydair.com/blog/ I’m going to post what you said there now.

    Bruce

  • Korak-again Says:

    Waiting on PART 5.

  • Neil Moomey Says:

    I had the same problem with my R7 and it took forever to figure it out. But I did and now it shoots like a dream. The problem is barrel lock-up. After closing the barrel try lifting up on the barrel firmly. Your vertical dispersion will disappear.

    Neil

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