Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle: Part 2

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Part 1

Today’s report is a continuation of the guest blog from HiveSeeker. Today, he tells us about accuracy

If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.

Over to you, HiveSeeker.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle

Winchester MP4 is a realistic and fun-to-shoot military replica pellet rifle.

This report covers:

• Shots per fill
• Heavy trigger
• Best results
• The normal grouping
• Bug Buster
• Summary
• The Dallas Field Target Club inaugural shoot
• How the blog changed my life

Shots per fill
While testing pellet accuracy, I shot at 6 bullseye targets (60 shots), swapping CO2 cartridges after each set, and did not notice any decline in performance at 10 yards. I also did a lot of enjoyable spinner silhouette shooting and started noting an increase in misses only as I approached the 80-shot mark (you go through pellets fast with this semiauto!). In conclusion, shooters can expect at least 60 accurate shots before swapping CO2 cylinders, depending on temperature.

It doesn’t matter how good the Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle looks with that bipod or red dot scope on it while you’re reconnoitering the backyard. How well does it shoot? A gun is only fun if you can hit what you’re aiming it at, and the Winchester MP4 does reasonably well in the accuracy department.

Heavy trigger
My rifle does not appear to be suffering from the reported loose barrel problem (which can ostensibly be remedied by removing the 6 screws holding the Picatinny forearm and hand-tightening the barrel). However, the trigger-pull on this rifle is a conspicuously heavy 7.6 lbs. according to my hand scale. My wife and brother-in-law, who is former military (both ends of the spectrum, and both experienced shooters), singled this out as a major complaint. This is no youth rifle. I agree that accuracy would be better without having to exert so much pressure to get a pellet off. However, after some limited travel, the trigger — heavy as it is — breaks clean and crisp.

I shot outdoors at 10 yards from a benchrest using the aforementioned Bug Buster scope and a Leapers Golden Image 30mm red dot sight. All pellets tested grouped right around 1″ — give or take a little. Results were slightly better using the BugBuster. This rifle is not a tackdriver but is certainly a solid performer as long as you keep the range at 10 yards.

Best results
The following pellets gave the smallest 10-shot groups. At least one out of three measures 7/8″:
Crosman Destroyer
Crosman Destroyer EX (the slightly different version sold only in discount stores)
Crosman Premier Hollowpoint
H&N Finale Match Pistol
Air Arms Falcon

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle Destroyer EX
Ten Crosman Destroyer EX pellets (a slightly different version of the Destroyer pellet sold at discount stores) went into 7/8″ at 10 yards.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle Finale Pistol
Ten H&N Finale Match Pistol pellets made this 7/8″ group at 10 yards.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle Falcon
These Air Arms Falcons also grouped in 7/8″ at 10 yards.

These three pellets gave at least one 10-shot group out of three as small as one inch between centers:
Crosman Competition Wadcutter
Crosman Premier Super Match
Gamo Tomahawk

The worst pellet tested was the JSB Match Diabolo Light Weight. They gave a best group that measured 1-1/8″ between centers.

The normal grouping
Most groups were erratic and inconsistent, with more pellet scattering than clustering. Nevertheless, the largest groups I got were still a reasonable 1-1/2″ (for the Crosman Destroyer EX and Gamo Tomahawk). Since each group was 10 shots, I filled one drum of the magazine completely (8 pellets) and then put only 2 pellets in the drum on the other side of the mag.

One interesting and frustrating observation was that my final 2 shots, after flipping the magazine around, almost always opened up the group, in some cases by a full half-inch or so. At least part of the time, though, this gun is capable of significantly tighter groups than I’m reporting here.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle pellet scattering
On the left is the only really tight group I got — 7/8″ for the Crosman Destroyer EX. Nearly every other group looked a lot more like the Crosman Premier Hollowpoint group on the right, with hardly 2 pellets in the same hole anywhere.

Bug Buster
I mentioned that I shot this gun with a Leapers UTG 3-9×32 Bug Buster scope. When I first started sighting in at 10 yards, my initial POI was a very low 5″ under the bullseye. I had to do a lot of clicking to get the POI near the bullseye; and by the time I was finished, I noticed a fair amount of blurring in the bottom quarter of the scope’s field of view. I suspect I’m approaching the limit of adjustment on this sight. The amount of blurring worsens at higher magnifications. I own another Leapers UTG 4-16×40 scope that I just love, but field of view and eye relief on the compact Bug Buster are not nearly as forgiving or comfortable. Both my wife and brother-in-law (again, each an experienced shooter) complained about how difficult it is to sight through this scope. Although the Bug Buster has performed reliably and adds to the military look of this gun, I’m going to try a 40mm or larger compact scope on it at a later date.

Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle Bug Buster
The Leapers UTG 3-9×32 Bug Buster was much better to look at than to look through. The scope showcased the drawbacks of a small-objective compact.

A couple minor notes before wrapping up: Although Pyramyd Air rates this rifle a 4 out of 5 for loudness, I didn’t find it to be especially noisy outdoors. On my screened porch, the report was definitely loud, but that depends on how the sound is bouncing off the walls. Shooting noise from inside a bedroom was only average, which is how I would rate this gun for sound.

Also, the manual states that you should store this gun uncocked. Every time you fire, the bolt is re-engaged by CO2 pressure for the next shot. After you’ve finished shooting and have removed the CO2 clip, remember to point the rifle in a safe direction and squeeze the trigger one last time before casing it.

Summary
In conclusion, the Winchester MP4 is an authentic- looking and handling military replica with some known issues but enough accuracy to make it quite enjoyable for casual shooting. For plinking around the yard while looking like a commando, this rifle fills the bill — and does so nicely.

The Dallas Field Target Club inaugural shoot
Bob Dye submitted the following report and photos of the first Dallas Field Target Club shoot.

Twenty-six shooters appeared on a beautiful June 14 day for the event, some traveling from as far as Oklahoma and Louisiana.

Dallas FT Club meeting
The first Dallas Field Target Club match was well-attended.

Everyone had fun with friendly competition in all the usual AAFTA competition classes. Among them were 6-7 new shooters. Some chose to participate in one of the regular AAFTA classes, while four others participated in a Fun Rifle category, where basically anything goes concerning shooting style and equipment choices.

Great scoring latitude was offered, scoring one point for simply hitting the animal faceplate and two for a knockdown. This appeared to be a great way to let the novice shooters have fun scoring points plinking lead against steel, along with the extra satisfaction when the target falls over. It also served as a fun change of pace among the experienced shooters.

Dallas FT Club shooter
Shooters enjoyed the relaxed pace of the day.

While the facilities have lanes long enough to create a challenging Troyer difficulty of 36 or more, this first, 50-shot match was built on 9 lanes to a 23 Troyer, again to put some smiles on faces the first time out. [Editor's note: Brad Troyer devised a way to rate the difficulty of a field target course based on the size of the kill zones; the distances at which they're placed; and the difficulty of the shot based on placement, light and shooting position.]

Accordingly, two of the seasoned veterans rose to the challenge to ace the course. David Alsup shot a perfect 100/100 in Open PCP. And, while I told him I thought he was a shoo-in to do this, David asked to keep his score card, indicating it was a special day for him, too. Great shooting, David!

Likewise, perennial Hunter Class leader Ron Robinson also shot 100/100 with his brand new TM1000 rifle. I haven’t seen such a big grin on Ron’s face is some time. Or at least since last weekend in Pulaski. Ask him how he likes his new rig and be prepared for 5 minutes of superlatives. Excellent match with a new rifle, Ron!

Altogether, 17 of the 26 competed in one of the two Hunter Classes, including two in Hunter Piston. Four people posted scores in Open PCP — rather unusual in these parts.

The mostly sunny weather cooperated for a mid-June day, with a high of only 85 degrees F during the match, which made the humidity bearable. The turnout was superlative for this first ever club match.

Thanks to members Kevin Enzian, Jeff Latimer and Jerry Cupples for helping me set up the course the afternoon before. I couldn’t have done it by myself.

Next match is in August. Stay tuned. Visit the Dallas Field Target Club website.

How the blog changed my life
I initially published this section on the May 30, 2014, blog. I’m going to repeat it at least once a week during June and July so it doesn’t get lost or forgotten.

From the comments many of you make, I believe the blog may have positively impacted your lives. I invite you to send me an email telling me about that impact.

Were you a firearms shooter who accidentally discovered airguns through this blog? If so, tell me how this blog has helped your understanding of airguns.

Were you already an airgunner, but you thought what you saw in the big box stores was all there was? If so, how has this blog helped you understand more about airguns?

I’ve gotten quite a few responses already, but I want to make sure you know that I’m not looking for “attaboys,” pats on the back or personal recognition. I’m looking for real feedback on what you’ve learned so I can target my blogs to what you feel is important, what you’d like to know and what you’re still unsure of. This blog is written for its readers, and I want to share your stories with others who may be where you were before you found this blog.

Pyramyd Air has created a special temporary email address for this. I’ll be the only person to get these emails, and we’re not going to generate any lists from the addresses.

My plan is to publish one or more blog reports with the more interesting comments. If you want, I will use your real name or blog handle; but you can be anonymous, too. I won’t use your name or handle unless you give me written permission to do so.

This email address will be live for only a few weeks. We have tens of thousands of readers worldwide. Even if you’ve never commented on the blog, you can email me your message if you like. If you’re reading this blog after July 2014, email submissions will no longer be forwarded to me, and you may get an auto-reply email stating that or your email might bounce back to you.

68 thoughts on “Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle: Part 2

  1. I got to find out if there is any field target match’s in my area.

    Just seems like to much fun.

    It looks like it was a good time.


  2. for almost three years I’ve been reading ur blog almost everyday , I’ve learned a lot about aiguns ! at first before I’ve read this blog I thought that when you have more co2 in your rifle it becomes accurate ! twist rates and numbers of grooves in a barrel affects accuracy! is only a few lessons I’ve learned through this blog ! there’s more to mentioned . thank you and may this blog will continue throughout the years to come


    • bolt action,

      Welcome to the blog and thank you for this comment. I have added it to my inquiry of how this blog has changed your airgunning life..

      I need feedback like yours — both the good and the bad — so I know what to write and what to stay away from.

      B.B.


  3. BB,
    About the Gamo P900. I do not expect much out of it because for one thing it is almost all plastic. It also has those glowey thingey sights. It is a Gamo. It has a reputation to live down to.

    What intrigued me about it is the gas spring, It is low powered. Maybe it has a gentle enough firing cycle to be somewhat interesting.

    As far as the boredom, that is if you were bored.



    • RR,

      Okay, Edith just pointed out to me that Gamo usually lists the correct cocking effort, and they say the P-900 cocks with 30 pounds. While that isn’t light for a pistol, it is more moderate than I would expect.

      I guess I will put it on my list.

      B.B.


      • I think it is the tinkerer in me. I want to take one of these gas sproinger pistols and make it into a light, low power carbine for plinking and such. Maybe you can put a bug in the ear of that marketeer at Crosman. ;)

        I should probably just get me an HW30.



        • Thanks Edith! I should know better, but I am going to hold out some hope that it will surprise me and probably a lot of others.


    • RR
      I had a Gamo Whisper spring gun (not a nitro piston gun) along while back. It didn’t last too long. I don’t have much faith in them anymore. And I’m kind of afraid to give them another chance and waist my money.

      I will say though that Stoeger X20S has turned out to be a nice little rifle. It did have the buzz and vibration at first. But its got I’m sure a about 2000 pellets through it now and the buzz and vibration is only slightly noticeable now. And look at the price compared to some of the others. And its quiet.

      http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Stoeger_Arms_X20S_Suppressor_Air_Rifle/2406

      And I know your talking about a pistol. But I just don’t know about Gamo. So maybe that will be interesting to see what BB has to say about the P900.


  4. I’ve got a fever and the only cure is more field target articles. I have recently started setting up an informal range. I am already all but certain if I ever get to attend a real event it’s going to be every bit as humbling as a first round of sporting clays or first trip to a 3D archery course. Also I am certain that tipping field targets is entertaining and appealing to a wide range of shooters. Are equipment list consists of two low end springers, a .25 maurader and seven cheap targets. However I am ready to go all out. I planned to do this a couple months ago but my friends and I got into compact/subcompact carry pistols after break up. That was a lot of fun and after two months a few thousand rounds and a hundered hours give or take dry firing couple of us have some proficientcy with an auto pistol(sorry BB but there was only one guy carrying a 1911 and he was the least dedicated of the bunch, small polymer framed, striker fired models won our admiration for this frenzied wave of practice). Now it’s time for PCP rifles and knock down targets with tiny kill zones. I plan on


    • Ben,

      Something historic is about to happen. Many years ago I heard similar things from a blog reader who doesn’t sign in very often anymore. He is Wayne from Oregon, but in time he became known to us as Wacky Wayne.

      I ran a number of field target primer (getting started) articles for him and, like you, he took the plunge.

      Today Wacky Wayne is a well-known field target shooter who travels hundreds of miles to follow his sport.

      I remember another two guys many years ago — Ray Apelles and his father, Hans. They were readers of my “Airgun Letter” newsletter in the 1990s and they tried to tell me how nice Chinese spring guns were, because they are real wood and metal, yet so cheap. I introduced them both to the TX 200 Mark II (yes, that was before the Mark III). Today both men are world-class field target shooters.

      Are you the next candidate? Want some pointers? ;)

      B.B.


      • I would absolutely like all pointers I can get. I way over taxed myself in my current health clearing a couple decades of growth off a trail to a favorite fishing hole so a couple kids can spend years getting outsmarted and occasionaly hooking trophy class fish just like I used to. I hit my pain meds hard and finally fell asleep in the middle of that long rambling stupor. I’ve been eyeing the TX200 hard but won’t be shopping for a quality springer late until fall. Right now a .25 marauder with a wood stock)(I’ve found synthetic air rifle stocks lacking and a can always shape, bend and glass bed wood) leather sling and ? scope. I’m looking for something to replace most of my .22lr shooting because I’ve long disliked factory ammo after availability became questionable, dislike turned into hatred. I’m guessing it’s going to destroy the few cheap targets I’ve got but that’s okay. I’m going to do my shooting with a sling and my daypack for a rest in prone and kneeling and anything I can use that’s available to steady myself standing because that’s how I hunt. Please lay all the tips, tricks even links to me. I’m always reading this blog I’m just a horrible writer so I avoid responding(unless dosed with heavy narcotics apparently).


  5. Wow, this little gun can shot!If I was a co2 guy,I would have this one and again great picture’s,great report.Off to work.


  6. Awesome blog ! I know nothing about Field Target except what was shown on American Airgunner.
    And, a CO2 AR ! Magazines today only have 1911A1 and AR articles, both of which I have no interest. That said, the CO2 AR should sell very well, which will not include yours truly. Strictly a classic air gunner. Field Target ? Much more, please.
    Pete Hallock
    “Old Town” Orcutt, California


  7. Hive Seeker,

    thank you for this review on the MP4. I agree with your summation that this is a neat, backyard plinking rifle. Good photos and shooting, too. Did you bench rest the rifle when you shot the targets? We know how BB does it but I didn’t see your method and it’d be nice to know.

    BB and the rest of the blog, yesterday I went to the major range in North Jersey to test the real thing, a Bushmaster AR-15 type rifle. The test was to accomplish two things, sight the rifle in and have some fun. Setting up at 50 yards and using the iron sights, my first round went into the 8 ring (using a 25 yard, timed Bullseye target). That was all she wrote. 1 hour later, the range officers and I determined that the buffer retaining pin was bent and allowed the buffer to exit the stock and block the hammer and bolt. A $2 part put an end to my day. However, my next door shooters let me shoot their M1 purchased from the CMP and the other fellow got very interested when I told him I’m really an airgun guy. He was most interested in my Discovery.

    Fred DPRoNJ


    • Fred,

      Now that I shoot AR 15s I know about things like this. I have a small box oif parts and tools like a broken cartridge extractor that I am supposed to carry with the rifle at all times. I don’t, though, because my other guns haven’t trained me that way.

      Sorry for your problem at the range, but it is fixable.

      B.B.


      • I did not care for the Mattelomatic when it first came out and it sounds like I would not be interested in it now. A broken shell extractor? Really?


        • Heh… Ever encounter one of these? Something that can validly be called a “Mattelomatic” http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/mattel/m16marauder.html

          True, no projectile, but I’m sure some of us lost a few dB of hearing from that unit. It had a drum-head in the magazine with the sound outlet on the left side… And a 7-stroke full cocking would let it roar for quite some time.


    • Sounds like my shooting range where someone is always fussing over their AR. There is an online review about a Springfield M1A and he says that with this gun, all the lore you need to keep an AR running with the various parts and lubricants and assorted tricks goes out the window. The gun fires every time. Maybe you want to consider the Saiga rifle which is my new interest. It is an AK built at the same Russian factory for the military guns, but minus the evil features. You can even get one in California without a magazine lock. This is just the sort of rifle flying under the radar that appeals to me. And the word is that on top of its absolute reliability, it is fairly accurate.

      Matt61


      • Matt,

        You are right about the Saigas being reliable, but not about them being accurate. They are 4-5-inch group guns at 100 yards at best. Buts at 50 yards they are a blast. I’ve owned one in 7.62 and another in 5.56. The 7.62 was the most accurate, but I’ve owned SKSs that would put it to shame for accuracy.
        B.B.


        • Perhaps I have been lucky but I have been shooting AR-15′s since 1975 with no problems. Two of them are original SP-1′s. The other is a DPMS. I just keep them clean and lubed. I have never had to use a broken shell extractor.

          Mike


      • Matt,

        I have an M1 on order from the CMP. Just got an e-mail from them that says everything has been approved and the order now goes to the shipping department. I should get an e-mail when it ships in, oh, 60 to 90 days!!

        I guess business is very good!

        Fred DPRoNJ


    • Thank you, Fred DPRONJ. I did use a benchrest, the MTM K-Zone which is similar to the MTM Predator (http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/MTM_Case_Gard_Predator_Shooting_Rest_for_Rifles_Pistols/4006) except that it has a removable handgun pad so that rifles with a lower clip (like the MP4) can be accommodated. The MP4 was still a little awkward on the benchrest and I had to use a towel to pad and position the retractable stock. However, every other gun I’ve shot on this rest has fit well.


  8. Nice photography, especially the targets. Looks like you used 2 different light sources.
    Sound like this rifle has a drooping barrel, based on how much elevation you had to crank into the scope. If you continue to use a scope, try shimming up the rear end with a little rectangle of material cut from an soda can or plastic bottle.
    The trigger pull is ridiculous. Add this to the list of things that the airgun makers need to improve. 7+ pounds trigger pull is WAY TOO HEAVY, lawyers or not. This really detracts from the accuracy and enjoyment potential of this rifle, I’m sure.


    • Feinwerk, I actually used three light sources as well as the fill flash on the camera, and still had to adjust brightness and contrast in Photoshop. I’ve got to ask Mr. Gaylord what he uses–it was a challenge getting decent shots. I think part of what made it harder was trying to show the detail on an all-black gun. The trigger pull is heavier than my shotgun, but I think shooting from a rest and having the gun anchored helped. Shooting offhand would definitely be hard with this trigger.



        • Thank you, B.B. I had not seen the photography posts but will hunt them down. It can definitely be a challenge to get decent photos, and I could use some tricks of the trade. I have definitely been noticing how good your photos are since my own studio shoot!


          • HiveSeeker,

            Much of what you see is the result of Photoshop. But there are still some tricks to be learned. I started taking pictures in the film era, and I had to learn how light works. So I was forced to learn a few things that digital users don’t experience today.

            My buddy, Mac, was the lead photographer at the National Archives. He taught me things about light and focus that few people ever learn. I am glad to pass them on.

            B.B.


  9. In the past, many of you have said you liked the realistic new handguns coming from the companies that make mostly airsoft guns, but you wished they’d make pellet shooters instead of BB shooters. Well, they’re starting to do that:

    ASG CZ P-09 Duty:
    http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/ASG_CZ_P_09_Duty_CO2_Pistol/3438

    Dan Wesson revolver, 8″ barrel:
    http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Dan_Wesson_8_CO2_Pellet_Revolver_Black/3461

    Dan Wesson revolver, 6″ barrel:
    http://www.pyramydair.com/s/m/Dan_Wesson_6_CO2_Pellet_Revolver_Silver/3460

    I’ve already pre-ordered the 8″ barrel DW gun for Tom to test.

    I’m sure more are coming!

    Edith


    • Thank You Edith for this information! Very exciting. Can’t wait to see BB’s report. The Dan Wesson could very well unseat the Smith & Wesson revolver if it’s accurate. Both metal, but the Dan Wesson is almost $100 less!!! Also proud of PA for for listing the ASG CZ P09′s real velocity they got instead of the wishful one. Thanks again, Bradly



  10. While Edith is mentioning realistic new pellet handguns I will take a moment to chide Crosman for calling their latest incarnation of their .357 “Vigilante”. I doubt I am the only person who finds this a bit inappropriate. Of course, it’s “just a pellet gun”.

    On the other hand, thank you for another thorough and objective blog about the Winchester MP4 CO2 rifle. It is nice to see what can be done with it and the Destroyer EX pellets.

    ~Ken


    • Ken,

      I didn’t like it when they made their Doomsday kit. They’ve also got a gun called a Survivalist, which is just the 1088 CO2 BB pistol but with a holster. Low-powered guns are not useful for survival or any doomsday scenario I can think of other than killing those cockroaches everyone claims will survive a nuclear blast!

      Edith


      • By sheer coincidence I watched “Damnation Alley” Sunday. If you like post-apocalyptic survivor cockroaches, this is your movie.


    • There must be some imaginative people naming guns at Crosman. Their recent Crosman Comrade AK style gun in the PA catalog cracked me up. The airgun name that I found most discordant was the Benjamin Katana. That affected me about like a Anschutz Kentuckian. The cultural references are all mixed up. The weirdest name was the Air Arms Twice. :-) I wonder if any heads rolled over that one.

      Matt61


      • Matt61,

        The Benjamin Katana was named by Josh Ungier, I believe. He’s the founder & owner of Pyramyd Air. Since the gun was an exclusive model for them and had a custom stock specified by Josh, he got to name it :-)

        Regarding names of products: It’s not as strange as you might think. Manufacturers seize on popular names and trends, hence the movement toward names that hit high on the Google search results. AK probably gets a lot of hits in search engines. So why not seize the opportunity and put your product — even if it’s not really what people are searching for — into the mix and possibly generate some sales because of it?

        The Air Arms Twice. I think they were trying to get it out the door and that stuck. It used to say TWICE on the gun, even after they officially changed the name to TC. They must have changed that some time ago, as I no longer see TWICE on the gun images on Pyramyd Air’s website. But enough people know it by the name TWICE, as the TC gun will come up if you search for TWICE on Pyramyd Air’s website.

        Edith


  11. HiveSeeker,

    Great report, once again.
    I read your comment on the first part when you mention you did a lot of research before buying this rifle. You also mentioned that the M4-177 is the most popular among the AR-style airguns, but you were attracted to the semi-auto capability. Well, I must confess that the semi-auto is quite an appeal to me too.
    In the past, my wife and I used to run an airsoft field, in which we had M-4s to rent to visitors. They were reasonably accurate (for airsoft standards), but these days, since I don’t engage in airsoft “skirmishes”, I am looking for a much better level of accuracy. And I still have my FN-FAL airsoft replica for any weekend skirmish.
    So, as far as I could find (please let me know if I missed any other model), if you’re looking for an AR-style airgun, you can choose the MTR77NP (break-barrel, single shot, 1000fps), the M4-177 (multi-pump, 5-shot repeater, 600fps) or the now presented Winchester MP4 (CO-2 semi-auto, 2X8 shot repeater, 500fps).
    I only wish that manufacturers continue this trend, by offering their basic systems styled (disguised if you will) in other military models too, like Crosman did with the MK-177 which is patterned after the FN-SCAR. I would simply love to see the FN-FAL and the H&K G-3 series offered in airgun form too.


    • Fred_BR, for an AR-style gun I believe you have covered all the bases (the new Crosman USMC MOS 0311 Rifleman appears to be the M4-177 in different color). I wish there were more choices. If I could change one thing about this gun, it would be to give it an accuracy closer to 1/2″ at 10 yards; my next choice would be no ammo feed problem. I have the MK-177 and just love it (and it’s more accurate than the Winchester MP4–see Pelletier’s 3-part review). I hope other manufacturers will look at the M4-177 and throw their hat into the military pellet rifle ring.


      • By the way, I mentioned that the MK-177 is patterned after the FN-SCAR, but I eventually found it is closer to the Bushmaster ACR. Check yours and let me know.
        Sounds like the biggest complaint about the Winchester MP4 is the magazine. How often does yours jam? Would you say it happens with any particular pellet or pellet style?
        Another comment I have is that I think you are trying to achieve 10-shot-groups under .50″ when you should instead look for 8-shot groups. I think the action of removing the mag and reinserting it may very well disrupt your attention and clearly breaks any consistency for just two more shots.


        • Fred_BR, I believe the MK-177 is actually an incarnation of the Magpul Masada, but will leave it to the military buffs to sort that one out. My one comment into the fray is that the Masada has (drum roll) a left-handed bolt, just like the much-maligned MK-177. Since you have to manipulate the gun to pump it for every shot anyway, I did not consider it to be an issue but many others did. Though lefties apparently love it.

          Regarding the Winchester MP4, I’m having a pellet jam every 1 to 2 magazines (16-32 shots), which averages about 5% of the time. It’s a little annoying but I can live with it and hope it doesn’t get worse. I’d like to figure out what, exactly, causes misfires and be able to eliminate them but no luck in all my testing so far.

          I’ve been shooting from a bench rest and will claim to have been very consistent from shot to shot and between magazine swaps, but there is definitely something about swapping the magazine around that throws the last two pellets off. I believe at least a couple of the groups I shot would have been closer to 1/2″ without those last two pellets in a 10-round group opening up the group. I’ll keep testing and will try to add some follow-up comments if I find anything significant.


  12. I would love to see more articles about field target and more about how the Troyer system works.

    And any more things you could think of about field target.

    Maybe even an article about some of the guns that were used by people in the past and how the guns progressed to what people are shooting today at field target match’s.


  13. HiveSeeker
    The gun seems to like the Destroyer pellets. But I have to be honest that I was hoping for better accuracy with the pellets. Kind of seems like the gun was grouping as if it was shooting steel bb’s.

    Which makes me think of something else. When I looked at the link about the guns specifications it said it can shoot pellets or bb’s out of the magazine.

    And here is what I was thinking. What about the .177 cal. lead balls. Maybe the gun would like them. Have you thought about useing them. Or have you used them already?


    • Gunfun1, I and everyone else eyeing this gun also hoped for better accuracy, no question. I did a lot of research, and there was very little out there except for the Pyramyd Air reviews. The reviews pretty universally reported groups from 1″ to 3″ at the standard 10 yards/meters, so I was happy to get groups less than 1″ (by a hair) at that range. Testing with lead BBs (I didn’t want to potentially damage the barrel rifling with steel BBs) would be interesting but I would be very surprised if accuracy were better. The Diabolo style pellet is usually more stable. If I try some lead BBs I’ll be sure to run an accuracy test but will actually be more interested in the chronograph results.


      • HiveSeeker
        You might be surprised about the lead balls; well even steel bb’s. Its all about the fit. You should give them a try. At least 8 lead balls in one side of the magazine and 8 steel bb’s in the other side.

        Or if your worried about the steel bb’s don’t use them. But if I had the gun I would sure try lead balls. To me it sounds like that magazine is calling their name. They got to be easier to load than pellets also.


  14. Hello BB
    Once long time back you mentioned about a lubricant (which probably Crosman uses) which is used on triggers – it was said that it is one time lubricant and you do not require to lubricate with it again. Also it repels dust. As far as i remember it was some Loctite product – can you please name it again ?

    Thanks


  15. And now we come to it, accuracy! Hm, normalized to a 5 shot group, this comes out to 7MOA, and the scattering effect is unaesthetic. I don’t bother measuring groups, but the tight symmetrical looking ones give me extra satisfaction. This brings up a question about the AR firearms. Their possibly questionable reliability has always been balanced against the accuracy of the platform. We know from B.B.’s experience and that of many others (including Clint Fowler M1 Garand master gunsmith) that the AR can be made extremely accurate. The question is what is their service accuracy. For example, M1 Garands noted for their accuracy were only required by the army to shoot 4 MOA to qualify for service, which is considered poor by marksmanship standards. On the other hand, the M14 EBRs currently built by the Rock Island Arsenal and designed to be used as Designated Marksman rifles, average 0.89 MOA at the factory. Surely, there is some accuracy test for all the M4s released into service. Anyone know what it is?

    Speaking of service rifles, I just found that Clint Fowler retired last year at the age of 86. That’s a risk you take in getting your rifle built by a Grand Old Man. Now I’m on my own with my rifle that exhibited some failures to feed last time. But because of the bedding job and some other modifications, I’m not supposed to take the rifle apart–even if I knew how. What can be done? Reading around, it appears that failures to feed in the Garand are caused by insufficient gas to cycle the action. To cure that I used Clint’s method of dripping 2 cycle engine oil down the op rod then washing it out with Breakfree cleaner. I got a kind of crust of carbon but nothing serious. I also greased the track for the bolt with white lithium grease. I crimped my latest lot of ammo, so perhaps that will give each round that extra bit of pop that’s necessary. As a last measure, I suppose I could bump up the powder charge although I’m within .5 grains of the limit in the Lyman Reloading Manual. Anything else I can do for failure to feed problems?

    I sent out my big shipment to my friend yesterday, and I can’t believe it. I didn’t send the IZH 61 or even anything I knew but went with completely new guns, the Makarov Legends pistol and the Crosman 1377. The problem with the IZH was that the cost was really mounting up. Those with stock in PA will be glad as the result of my order. Just getting someone established takes a ton of money if you think of targets, traps, Pellgun oil, carry cases. I can’t imagine anyone starting from scratch. I guess I did it a little bit at a time over years. Also, I decided against the IZH because of all the accessories for the Crosman 1377, something I don’t normally think of. With that shoulder stock, you practically have a rifle already. I also got the package with the intermounts and the red dot scope. But I suspect that a red dot scope that costs some fraction of $50 is not going to last very long. Anyone have experience with this?

    B.B., okay if you use my handle with the message I sent in about how the blog has changed my life.

    Matt61



    • Matt61
      If you got those mounts that attach to the barrel for the 1377 they aint that good. You will have the dot sight moving side to side and all around. But I think you and her will be happy with the 1377.

      I was hoping that you got a steel breech for it. That way you can mount a sight very rigid. Just like if you were to put a scope or dot sight on the Discovery rifle.


    • Your Grand was set up for accuracy. Everything is tight, tight, tight. It may need a break in period to work well. If it were me, if the problem continued, I would take it apart, and clean and lube. A Grand that you can’t take apart is going to be trouble in the long run. It may need a lot of lube until it breaks in.

      If you re shooting reloaded ammo, that may be the problem. I always use RCBS Small Base Dies to insure that the case is as close as possible to new ammo. If the base of the shell is too large, it won’t chamber easily.

      Mike


    • Matt, here’s what I found when I looked up the M4 accuracy standard. BTW, the M855 is the current issure round.

      “The acceptance criteria for M855 requires both a vertical and horizontal standard deviation no greater than 6.8″ at 600 yards or alternatively no greater than 1.8″ at 200 yards using an indoor range. Three 30 shot targets are fired and averaged out of a fixed test barrel.

      What it means is the average distance from the center of the target would be 1.8″ at 200 yards. This means that 68.2% (61) of the rounds will impact within a 3.6″ circle at 200 yards, 95.4% (a total of 86) will impact within a 7.2″ circle at 200 yards and 99.9% (for all practical purposes all of the 90 ound sample) will impact within a 10.8″ circle at 200 yards.

      Two minutes of angle is 4.19″ at 200 yards, so the accuracy standard for 1 standard deviation is essentially 1.7 MOA and it is 3.4 MOA at the 95% confidence level.”

      Mike


    • On the Garand – is the bolt closing on an empty chamber? Or is it grabbing a cartridge and not putting it fully into battery?


  16. Yay!!!,I finally got the intake valve outta my Benji 3120!It’s super yucky inside where the seat is, I’ve been very gentle with this gun since its’ pivot link rivet folded up. I’m open to suggestions on how to clean this valve seat, it appears to still have some of the silicone sealer stuck in it and it has to be perfectly clean before I can install my brand new valve.I’ll start working on getting the pump lever ready to go back to work tomorrow. I really can’t wait to shoot this gun at it’s full potential! Hope I get it there on the first try!

    Reb


  17. HiveSeeker,

    Good report on accuracy. I had some similar results with my MP4. For me, the JSB Match Diabolo Light Weight pellets gave me the best results as in the smallest grouping. Much like you, I did my accuracy tests from a bench rested position at 10 meters distance to target, except I was shooting in my basement rather than outside. My results are a compilation of 8 shot groups using both the CenterPoint Multi-TAC dot sight and the Leapers Golden Image 4X32 rifle scope. Here are my results:

    JSB Match Diabolo Light Weight (1″)
    RWS Hobby (1 1/4″)
    H&N Finale Match Pistol (1 1/4″)
    RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle (1 1/2″)
    H&N Sport (1 1/2″)
    RWS Supermag (1 1/2″)
    H&N Baracuda (1 1/2″)
    Crosman Premier Super Match (1 1/2″)
    H&N Match Pistol (1 1/2″)
    Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum (1 1/2″)
    Crosman Premier Super Point (1 1/2″)
    RWS R10 Match (1 3/4″)
    H&N Field Target Trophy (2″)
    RWS Superdome (2″)
    RWS Super Point (2″)
    JSB Exact Diabolo (2 3/8″)
    RWS Meisterkugeln Pistol (2 3/4″)
    H&N Spitzkugel (2 5/8″).

    Daisy Customer Service advised me that this MP4 should produce groupings at least as small as 1 1/2″ at 10 meters. My full customer review is available on the MP4 listing under the name Charles M. I knew some of the pellets wouldn’t do very well, but I never imagined that the groups would be as large as 2″ or more. Like you, I don’t think this rifle is particularly noisy. After a few hours shooting indoors, my hearing was still fine. I think this rifle is very indoor friendly, especially in the middle of winter. One final note about my shot count. I don’t remember exactly when the pellet accuracy started falling off, but I was able to get about 120 shots per pair of 12 g CO2.


    • Thank you, Charles Stoehr, and in case you missed my comment replies to Part 1 I credit your review for tipping the balance in finally deciding to purchase the Winchester MP4. Very thorough job, and I thank you again. The MP4 blog post is partly the result of trying to emulate the quality of your review. Well met, my friend!

      Thank you for reproducing your test results here. My funds were limited (with already forking out for a fairly expensive plinker and new Leapers scope) but I also ordered several new kinds of pellets to test based on your results. I didn’t do quite as well with the JSB Match Diabolo Light Weights (which grouped only 1/8″ larger than yours did), but I have no doubt that further testing could easily have generated smaller groups.

      One very, VERY (apologies for shouting) interesting and important point you make is that you shot groups of 8 (one side of a full ammo magazine). I shot groups of 10, putting 2 lone pellets on the “flip” side of the ammo mag, and those 2 pellets very regularly opened up my group sizes. Discounting those 2 “orphan” shots for each group, my MP4 groups tighter than I report. Had I noticed this earlier I would have kept track of the difference in group size this made.

      You seem to be getting a lot more shots than I am with the 2 CO2 cartridges, and I believe I recall that you tried several brands. Maybe I (or my individual gun) is fussier about accuracy at the lower velocities.

      Charles, as far as I could tell you’ve shot the Winchester MP4 more than anyone else that reviewed the gun. Have you started to have any ammo feed problems? I didn’t have a single misfire in my first 40 shots, but then started to have occasional trouble–about 1 pellet out of every 1 or 2 magazines or about 5% of the time. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that this doesn’t worsen, and also hope to do a little testing to find out the possible cause(s) of these misfires and possibly find a way to eliminate them.

      With your experience with this gun, I would also encourage you to add whatever additional comments you may have to the blog or to others’ comments.


      • HiveSeeker,

        I haven’t shot the MP4 since January because I moved on to a Walther P99 pellet pistol, a .22 caliber Hammerli 850 AirMagnum, and the Walther Lever Action Rifle. I don’t recall having any feed issues with my MP4. I read somewhere a possible explanation for the MP4 pellet feed issues you and others have reported. The explanation was that because of the way the CO2 and pellet magazines are inserted and mounted in the rifle pressure from the CO2 (particularly when full) was pushing the magazine out of alignment just enough to cause the pellet feed problems. Just before I put the MP4 away to focus on the Walther P99 pistol, I started noticing a significant reduction in the accuracy as my groups started getting bigger. I’m wondering if the barrel may have worked loose again or if it has already collected enough lead in the barrel to require cleaning. Those are some things I’m going to look at when I get my next week of vacation from work. Regarding the shot count, I look for absolute total count that can be safely shot, not necessarily the shot count for the most accurate shots.

        When I started submitting customer reviews to Pyramyd Air, I decided to try to emulate the reviews done by Paul Capelo in Airgun Reporter and others who did similar reviews. The two things I don’t do are the chronograph and the sound meter. Two things that really impressed me were (1) recommendations by B.B. and someone at Crosman to try lots of pellets until you find the one that most accurate for the gun and (2) most customer reviews at Pyramyd Air don’t really tell you anything. As a new comer to the sport / hobby two years, I was really disappointed when reviewers would briefly talk about accuracy, but not mention what pellets / BBs were used. So I decided to make a point of putting into my reviews as much information as I can that might be helpful to the other new air gunners. As you and I learned already, with so many choices for guns and ammo, the process of deciding what to buy can be daunting and intimidating. I’m glad my review was helpful for you to make that decision. That’s why I write my reviews the way I do. If you happen to be in the market for additional CO2 rifles, I strongly recommend the Hammerli 850 AirMagnum and the Walther Lever Action Rifle. With scopes, these rifles have excellent accuracy at 10 meters.


        • Charles, thank you for the detailed comments. Your reviews are doing exactly what you want them to do, and I appreciate it. I don’t have a lot of spare cash, and this purchase was larger than usual for me–you helped me with an important decision and I am continuing to enjoy the informed choice I made. (And in turn, it’s helped me–I hope–help inform others as well.) Thanks for the update on the MP4; I had also noticed the comment about the CO2 clip and hope to do some CO2 clip and ammo magazine testing to see if misfires can be minimized somehow. Noted on the accuracy drop; I hope I don’t end up having to disassemble the gun for barrel-tightening at some point, though it sounds easy enough.

          You answered my question about the Hammerli 850 before I had a chance to ask it. This would be an even bigger purchase but I’ve got my eye on this one.

          Carry on!


  18. I believe I may be spoiled. I was looking for 25 yard groups,but I guess not. I guess I just assumed that with all that barrel it would be able to reach out a little farther.Definitely not for me!

    Reb


    • Reb, your point is well and succinctly made. I bought this gun because I wanted a semi-auto military style pellet rifle, and the options are very, very limited. I’ll continue testing more pellets and hope to find the “magic bullet” that groups down to 1/2″ or so, but based on my initial research knew that I would be doing good to get 1″ groups. The Winchester MP4 will be fun up to about 10 yards, and frustrating beyond that. This can still be a fun replica gun for those that know its limitations up front and accept them, but this will not be the right gun for a lot of other shooters. If this blog has provided enough information for you to make an informed decision to buy–or else, not to buy–then it has done it’s job.


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