by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Daisy Number 12 Model 29 is a vintage BB gun.
This report covers:
- For Reb
- The gun
- Welded tube
- Hard to cock
- Sights
- Single shot?
- No chrome
- Shot tube
This is about a BB gun you fondly remember, but never heard of.
HUH?
Today’s BB gun looks like many others from the turn of the century, especially the model H that lasted from 1913 until 1922. The No. 12 Model 29, however, is a single shot that was produced from 1929 until 1942, when Daisy put BB guns aside for the war effort. Although it is a later gun, it retains many characteristics of much earlier BB guns.
The most notable feature is the cocking lever that has a small finger loop, as opposed to the levers on most Daisys with full sized loops. The lever is cast iron, a vestige of guns made decades earlier. Because it lacks a forearm you can clearly see the sheet metal weld that seals the compression tube. This is where the soldered patch used to be — before Daisy figured out how to weld the thin metal tube airtight.
For Reb
This report is for Reb, who found part of a Daisy model B in the grab-bag box of airguns he bought at the 2015 Texas airgun show. He said he likes the size of the B and I immediately thought about the Model 29. It is positively diminutive — even when compared to other small BB guns. You’ll see that when I describe it for you.
The gun
The overall length is 30.5 inches. That’s 5 inches shorter than a Red Ryder. Pictures of the gun don’t illustrate this unless it’s shown next to another BB gun.
When seen next to a Red Ryder (top), you can appreciate how small the model 29 is.
The length of pull is 11.75-inches. That’s right for a smaller youth model BB gun.
The stock looks like gum wood that was popular at Daisy in that timeframe. And it’s just a buttstock; there is no forearm, nor is there any provision for one. The wood is flat on both sides and rounded over top and bottom. The butt has a Winchester carbine butt curve that probably won’t mean much to most readers, but it is a way of describing rifle buttplate shapes in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
The finish is blue, which was the only finish this gun came in. Many guns at this time were nickeled, but for some reason, this one never was. The metal is polished nicely — evidence of more handwork than you would see today.
The Daisy logo at the time has a bullseye on either end of the name. It looks retro!
The gun weighs 1 lb. 14-5/8 oz. That probably tells you how small it is.
Welded tube
I have mentioned the soldered patch tube in past reports. Daisy used to have to solder a patch to the bottom of the folded metal outer barrel jacket to form an airtight inner chamber for the plunger (piston) to work. On this model 29, the weld is prominent.
The welded section of the outer barrel is only long enough to contain the air from the plunger in its travel. The compression chamber has an end that’s is swaged into the barrel jacket (on the right) at this point — forming a perfect compression chamber.
Hard to cock
The guns if this era are all difficult to cock. On the model 29 the lever comes only as far as the halfway point before the gun is cocked. The mainspring has to be fully compressed by this point. Later on Daisy learned that they could lengthen the cocking stroke and reduce the effort required through better leverage. But that hadn’t happened yet.
This is as far forward as the cocking lever goes. The leverage was not good and these guns were harder to cock.
Sights
The sights are fixed — more or less. The rear sight is definitely fixed. Not only is it the sight, it’s also the spring anchor for the powerplant. That was a common way for the less expensive Daisy guns to be built.
The front sight does not adjust, but it does move. Besides being a sight, it’s also the latch to remove the shot tube from the gun. Press it back towards the butt, rotate it to the right and then withdraw the shot tube from the gun.
The front sight is also a spring-loaded latch to locks the shot tube in place.
Single shot?
These old Daisys have confusing nomenclature for those unfamiliar with the brand. They use both model numbers and other numbers to denote certain characteristics on guns. For example, the Number 12 Model 29 is a single shot with just a buttstock, a blued finish and a cast iron finger lever with a small loop. The Number 11 Model 29 is a 350-shot repeater than also has just a buttstock and small cast iron finger lever, but was finished in nickel.
This is a single shot. You load it by dropping a BB down the muzzle. Since it was made starting in 1932 the correct ammunition is — wait for it — steel BBs. If you don’t know why we know that, read Part 1: The rise of the BB gun. Daisy had purchased the American Ball Company by this time and had converted all their shot tubes to use steel BBs.
No chrome
While I’m at it, there have been very few guns — firearm or air — that have ever been finished with chrome. Chrome is for cars — not guns. There have been a few, but so few it is worth mentioning. Nickel is the silvery finish of choice for guns. If you hold something that’s nickel-plated next to something that’s chromed, the nickel will appear to have a gold cast.
Shot tube
I mentioned the shot tube was removable. Why? To clear jams. Back when this gun was made, BBs weren’t as uniform as they are today, and jams were common.
The shot tube is simple and has no means of loading BBs except through the muzzle. Behind the sight you can see the spring that locks the tube in place.
To see how the BBs were held in the gun I dropped several down the shot tube. They all went straight through. Then I tried 4.4mm lead balls. They went through as well. Then I tried a 4.55 mm lead ball. That stopped about one-third of the way down the bore, so it is too big. I have number 7 balls for zimmerstutzen, but they are 4.30 mm, and my number 12 zimmer balls are 4.55 mm. So I will be using steel BBs in the model 29.
A full test
I plan to give you a full test of this gun. I will combine velocity and accuracy testing in the next report.
BB
As I read and you described the gun. And how the shot tube comes out I really believe I had one of these as a kid.
I remember the parts to clearly and how the shot tube unlatched. I bet I was under 10 years old at the time. Maybe I will remember more as you test and tell about this gun. I definitely remember haveing the yellow and black cardboard Daisy bb tube containers with the black cardboard lids the bb’s came in.
Interesting I will say. Waiting now to see if I can remember more.
GF1,
Wouldn’t that be neat if you did have one?
B.B.
BB
Was there a lot of the Daisy number 12 Model 29’s made?
GF1,
I don’t know, but they were inexpensive, so probably. Not like Red Ryders, but probably a lot for the time. I see a lot of them for sale today.
B.B.
BB
How much is a average price for them today?
GF1,
$75-125 buys a nice one.
B.B.
BB
Not bad. And while I’m at it.
Do people now days or throughout time try to find different shot tubes to get better accuracy out of their guns.
I know they were made for having fun plinking and such. But you know how some people are they want to try to get the most out of something. I don’t know anybody like that do you. 🙂
GF1,
Not with one of these. But with the 499, yes, they still do. That’s the only gun that’s worth the effort.
B.B.
BB
Ok I know how much talk there is about the 499 all the time.
I like hearing about these old guns and the history behind them. And of course how they work.
But it looks like a 499 is in store for me.
GF1,
Well,..it’s about time!!!! 😉 So long as you don’t start talking 1/2″ groups at 50 yards with one…… 🙂 Chris
GF1,
If you use it like it’s supposed to be used, you’ll be impressed.
B.B.
You won’t regret it. HO scale Quigley Down Under.
BB
Yep I plan for it to be used downstairs at paper targets and bench rested even.
And I want to give the sights it comes with a try again.
And I might add I have been doing pretty good shooting my 1077 with open sights. I think I’m learning what I need to do with my old eyes to keep on target. But still not good as I use to be with open sights like when I was younger.
Speaking of eyes, I’m left eye dominant but definitely right handed, how can eye 😉 sight better with my weaker eye? Cant switch holds, not possible, and dont see having a switched eye mount like BB has mentioned. Eye 😉 do all right but its tough sometimes to stay focused with a scope and its match the blurs with open sights. If I wear glasses it helps but its kinda wonky in a scope with glasses.
I’ve seen that cocking lever many times on the auction sites and never really grew find of it until I learned from this report tha it denotes a shorter cocking stroke which may offer less mechanical advantage but requires less displacement from the shoulder for the next round, in the repeating versions. They oughtta be pretty easy to spot by that lever and I’ll have an idea from this review of what to look for on them, wonder how difficult one of these fancy shot tubes would be to find? Thanks for the look at this vintage to antique airgun B.B!
The B I picked up is so freckled it’s difficult to tell what the original finish looked like new and I’ll bet it was used on a farm by a farm hand judging from the grease absorbed into the patinad metal along with a glorious amounts of sweat.
I guess the B has that short throw cocking feature too since it’s even older? I’ll be keeping my eyes peeled for these distinguishing levers next season.
Thanks again!
Reb
Reb,
The B had a long lever, but it may have cocked the same as this one. Look at page 289 in your Blue Book.
B.B.
Will do but right now I’m trying to catch up on this 2240. Gotta the breech and barrel mounted and was gonna do some light trigger work while it was down but when I pulled the cover to access the sear the spring for the safety fell into my other hand, now I’m searching for a ballbearing I’m not even sure is missing.
You think it could still be in place?
Hey Reb!
I just found a Daisy Model 105 B in the cupboard and was wondering what it was worth. Have any ideas?
It is in pretty good condition and seems to be shooting fine (will chrony it later).
Cheers,
Hank
Hank,
Your 105 Buck has a top value of $25, according to the blue book. If it’s an older model with a wood butt, double that, but only for excellent condition.
B.B.
Thanks B.B.!
The stock is plastic but not quite the same as shown on the PA site and the cocking lever is metal so it must be an older version. I have had it kicking around for a long time.
I will play with it a bit to see what it can do. If it is only worth $25 then I will see about converting it into a salt-shooter for bugs – should be a good platform for that.
Hank
Sad part is that it’s probably worth more as parts considering the shot tube and cocking lever but it’s probably got the stamped steel trigger with the return spring mounted in the stock too and those are easily tunable to whatever you want outta them. I’d rethink the salt project because I need a shot tube for mine and was expecting to pay $10 for it if I could find one.
I took a quick check – the trigger is plastic.
Would like to get a Bug-A-Salt 2.0 to do some wing-shooting of the deerflies but can’t justify the cost so I am looking at the Daisy for that purpose.
The conversion from BBs to salt will have to wait until the snow flies – with temperatures what they were today that won’t be long. Not too many bugs flying around at the moment anyway.
Vana2
Going to do that with my old 760.
I was thinking about that for a while what gun I should use.
The 760 won out again because of the adjustable velocity.
Of you decide to go forward with the salt project I’ve got a tube that got jammed and need a replacement for.
I’ve tried a few ways of clearing the jam but didn’t wanna get it cherry red or force anything because I was gonna shoot BB’s through it but if you’re gonna shoot salt I’d prefer you help me finish wrecking this one.
Lemme know.
Reb,
I have several projects on the go before I get into modding the Daisy. The Deer(fly) season is June-July so I have some time.
You know how the seasons are marked here in Canada eh? Winter, Winter, Construction and Winter 🙂
Hank
I don’t see my comment here so I guess it didn’t go through but I found it on page 292 I believe and I came up with the same price B.B. did though it didn’t say anything about double for wood stock.
I’ve got one also and was disappointed myself but it’s still a nice little gun.
Sorry I guess I forgot to make sure it went through.
Reb,
That comment about double for a wood stock isn’t in the Blue Book. I added it because in my experience, that is what an older BB gun brings.
B.B.
I figured It was probably standard market adjustment when you said it and I was looking for anything that would raise it’s value. I guess these are still affordable vintage collectors on today’s market eh?
Reb,
Vintage is in the eye of the beholder. There are readers who are 30 years old who thing there are Crosman 760s that are vintage. For me they have to be a little older. 😉
B.B.
Do you consider LP’s & 8 tracks vintage? Just curious.
Reb
What’s that?
😉
I was talking to a friend about those harvest gold flytraps tha used to be in at least one corner of every home, and usually in the kitchen.?
Reb
And those too.
🙂
Reb
Never did 8 tracks myself . Heard they malfunctioned too much .
Did LP to cassette . Could use the cassettes in the house and in the car . Had a reel to reel for a while . Nice, but no good in the car .
Now I do CD to MP3 and can play anywhere .
Have a new turntable that is both RCA jack and USB that I could patch to the computer to transfer my vinyl to digital file for CD or MP3 if I want .
Only thing that fits in my car is the MP3 player .
Also have a cassette deck in the house on the main stereo . Been hoarding blank tapes when I can find them .
twotalon
Sounds like a cool stereo you got there! Did they give it a retro look?
TT
You never had a 8 track?
That was a option in the old muscle cars.
Did somebody say stereo in their old hot rods!?!
I listened to the sweet sound of horsepower back then when I was driving. The stereo was jam’n when the car was stopped if you know what I mean.
Reb
Ran out of room .
Component system setup . You don’t carry it under your arm .
twotalon
Reb,
Nope.
78’s are vintage.
B.B.
BB
I do rember 78’s.
🙂
Ya see, I’d consider those antique.
There was one of these guns at the flea market that looked horrible, the wood was destroyed, the shot tube missing, most of the blue was now brown and red. But under all that I saw what was in all your stories in “BB Guns Remembered”, somebody long ago sharing that same feeling we all get holding a new air gun, or making that impossible shot. Of the kids having a real honest fun that can still be had no matter how long ago the first time was. I remember the first time I shot, my grandfather taught me to shoot with an old poor down the tube daisy, it was from the 70s I’d think, and it hit cans hard and we smiled harder. Things change and change and change, but the bb has stayed round… well… relatively.. 😉
I know what you mean by poor down the tube because that’s probably the same model I got only mine had the plastic forearm & butt- had a tab on the shot tube that you only had to turn a few degrees either way an access the loading chute. Mine was the 1000 shot got it in ’75 for $13.00.
Reb
I remember wood. And I do remember the wood stock was wore out where it attached to the metal action. I guess from cocking the gun probably.
Yeah that’s what I was expecting to get when my parents came in and told me to give em my BB gun money they’d just found it on sale at one of the local stores, I was a little disappointed with the plastic until I got to shoot it and when the stock eventually broke I was devastated. I knew I could probably get another stock for peanuts but it was too much to tackle at 12 with no computers or even a catalog but $6 was a lot of money for a kid back then.
I don’t know exactly how it happened but the plastic tab that the top screw was supposed to screw into broke off. I thought about getting a plank and building another outta wood too but shop class was 4 years away still.
Reb
Good ole shop class.
Wood shop for me first then it was all machine shop classes and drafting classes after that. Well except one year they offered small engine repair and I took it.
That was my whole reason I went to school everyday was those classes. I did like them.
All our school offered was farm & ranch which was one semester wood shop and one in metal shop, wood shop was okay but I excelled in metal shop especially in welding so it was a blast.
Reb
My favorite was metal shop class also. But I did like drafting also. That was the old days when you actually made drawings on paper not a computer.
We weren’t offered a drafting class here in Texas but I got a chance when I moved to Kansas and that was another case where success made it my favorite.
But in Kansas they also had Apple 2’s in the library and we used CADDRAW software for completing assignments.
I also used that floppy to design a cover sheet for my English lit. 1000 wd.Term paper on the space shuttle explosion/ disaster that taught a lot of engineers how much differently things that are built to close tolerance fit differently in the field under adverse conditions than they do in the controlled environment of their “clean shops”.
Reb
Yep we use the computer alot at work with tool design and with all the cnc equipment we use.
A different world now days.
I’m glad because all we had were menus of ellipses and angles with that program.
It wasn’t eve CADCAM.
Had a little disaster myself with my 2240 while opening up the trigger assembly my safety detention fell out, it took a couple hours but I finally found the bearing.
Just trying to find easiest way to get it all back in right now
Any suggestions?
Reb
Yep thick grease on the spring and little ball bearing and put it in the trigger assembly.
Then hold the pistol grip assembly in your hand. Set the main tube down on the trigger assembly. He ld it together with your thumb on top and your trigger finger on the trigger. Then put the front screw in then the back screw.
Don’t lean the gun over at any time till you get the screws secure.
Cool, but the whole trigger frame has tovcom off?
Because I just put in a fresh cartridge.
Do I need to dump it first? My understanding is that screw anchors the valve.
Reb
Thats the easiest way I know.
You have to have the safty that slides back and forth in the trigger assembly. Then you drop the little ball bearing in then the spring.
The back end cap should hold the valve in by the top screw that holds the breech on.
But yes I would for sure take the cartridge out before you work on it.
Dumping it then! Thanks for your detailed explanation in your previous reply! I’ll refer back to it when I get done.
That one slide right out!
I tried a shot before cracking the seal and gotta watch for a leaky spot too, I also noticed how small the hole in this cartridge was from across the room so picked up and took a best look at it and it’s barely a pinhole so I feel like I should probably shim the piercing pin too so now I’ll be pulling the valve too.we’ll have to start another thread for that though cause it’s too thin here. See you at the bottom!
Thanks,
Reb
Reb
Going to make a comment at bottom now.
See ya there!
I had 3 years of mechanical drawing, best class ever. We did just a tiny bit of cad, teacher wanted us to learn it completely old school.
RDNA
That’s what I had back then too. Mechanical drafting. 1975-78. Don’t know if cad cam was even invited yet back then.
But yep that’s when you learned what the number meant on the lead pencils. And how to sharpen your pencil as you drew your lines.
My junior and senior year in high school we got to bring a picture of a car in and grid it. Then we magnified the grid on (D size) paper. It was all drawn and shaded with pencil. No colors.
I did a 72 Nova SS my junior year and a 57 Chevy my senior year. Can’t find the Nova drawing but got the 57 drawing hanging up out in the garage with other pictures of cars I had. Along T-Shirts I got through out the years of drag racing events I raced at.
But yep drafting was fun back then.
Haha, yup, spin it as you draw to keep it sharp, its funny thats the only place I’ve ever heard that simple trick conveyed. My handwriting is chicken scratch but still make perfect all capital lettering. Between that class and college critical thinking and writing classes those were the most enlightening as far as applying practical application to all tasks in life.
RDNA
You know what. Same here. I still pint in capital letters. I by habit write my tie in notes to the next shift at work in printing.
About the onlything I write is my signature.
And what was that eraser bag called that you would use to clean up your drawing.
Did you have a blue print machine at your school. We didn’t get to use that till 12th grade for some reason though.
My biggest project was a beach house with indoor pool.
He said he wanted us to design the house of our dreams.
The Master bedroom was 60’x40′.
That would come in real handy right now!
Reb
Who wouldn’t enjoy putting that space to good use nowdays.
And I’m glad the teachers back then made us dream and give us a outlook on life.
My oldest daughter says the teachers always make them think about what things will be like when they get out of school.
That’s a big lesson in itself for sure.
The stock would probably be fairly easy to find.
Kinda doubt that about the shot tube but these older guns are cool and had I seen one in that shape I’d have probably done a lotta head scratching anywhere south of $20.
Hey BB, this is off topic but I’ve read that the best place to ask a question is your newest post. I want to buy an air pistol to start informal 10 meter, not in competition, although I might end up looking into some competition if I like it. I’ve been eyeing the 747 for awhile but the Game Compact just caught my eye. Which pistol would you recommend? I’ll just be shooting 10m by myself for score on official targets, and hopefully indoor some of the time. Any info or maybe some pros n cons of each pistol would be much appreciated! Thanks
Hey BB, this is off topic but I’ve read that the best place to ask a question is your newest post. I want to buy an air pistol to start informal 10 meter, not in competition, although I might end up looking into some competition if I like it. I’ve been eyeing the 747 for awhile but the Game Compact just caught my eye. Im leaning towards the 747 because the LW barrel and adjustable trigger, the 747 trigger can be brought down to 1.5lbs. I do like the grip of the compact better tho. Which pistol would you recommend? I’ll just be shooting 10m by myself for score on official targets, and hopefully indoor some of the time. Any info or maybe some pros n cons of each pistol would be much appreciated! Thanks
Mitch,
Both the Daisy 747 and the Gamo Compact have equal accuracy. The Compact has an adjustable grip and a much nicer trigger than the 747. The 747 is also very heavy, which most shooters find troublesome when shooting with one hand in 10-meter competition.
I would therefore recommend the Compact, of those two guns.
B.B.
BB,
Thank you for the quick reply, I appreciate it. I’m definitely gonna go with the Gamo per your recommendation. I’m glad I decided to ask you, I almost didn’t wanna bother you lol. I noticed you said “of those two guns”. Is there another entry-level 10m pistol you’d recommend over the compact that’s $300-$350 or less? I wouldn’t mind spending the extra $100 if Its worth it.
Mitch,
There is nothing new at that price. Used, however, you might be able to get a better gun.
B.B.
B.B.,
I’m gonna get the Gamo Compact for now. If I get into competition I’ll spend the $$ to get a better pistol. For now though, I think the Compact will be fine. What’s your recommendation for a good entry-level competition pistol to move up from the Compact? Preferably under $1000 but not required. Also, I searched for an hour last night trying to find 10 Meter air pistol/air rifle matches in my state and couldn’t find any info at all except for state championships. Do you know a good place to get info on that? I wanna go watch a match and see what its like.
Mitch,
Instead of giving you an answer right now, I’m going to dedicate a whole series to the answer, starting this coming week.
B.B.
Bravo! I wish there had been a resource such as this blog when I was young enough to get into such a sport.
Reb,
Ya this blog is an amazing resource. And its never too late! I’m 26 and I’m just now thinkin about starting.
I’d be able to pull off some silhouette and maybe light field target but I think my 10m days are behind me now.
BB,
Awesome, I’m looking forward too it. I’ve already read all your 10 Meter Pistol blogs over and over again lol and rifle too. If you can include the Air Arms Alfa that would be awesome. Thanks again! I’ve learned tons of stuff from your blog, you’ve really helped me out.
Mitch,
I won’t be reviewing the Alfa Proj.. I have tested one in the past, but the lack of target adjustable grips keeps it from being a serious contender. It’s a nice informal target pistol, but not suited for serious work.
B.B.
BB,
Well I’m glad I asked, that answer was all the review I needed to not look at the Alfa Proj again. I decided to order the Gamo Compact, thanks to you, I was pretty set on the 747. Got some pellgunoil, Official 10-Meter pistol targets and 4 different kinds of new wadcutters to go with it too. Thanks again for your recommendation and I’m really looking forward to the new series!
Mitch,
Good luck with your new purchase. I think I will get the 747 with the LW barrel on my next order. I do not plan do anything serious with it, so the 747 ought to be just fine for an accurrate plinker pistol.
BB,
I had to add one thing. This blog is an amazing resource and I’m grateful to you for having created it. Its even more amazing to be able to communicate with you. It’s like getting to talk basketball with Michael Jordan or football with John Elway and those aren’t even perfect examples because they’re not the Godfather’s of their sport and you are. I feel very lucky to have been able to interact with The GODFATHER of Airguns!
Mitch,
As long as you bear in mind I only got that nickname because Rossi Morreale temporarily forgot my name while introducing me on TV.
B.B.
B.B.,
Well,…that’s a little “tid-bit” I had not heard before…. 🙂
Still,..mistake or not,..it fits.
LOL really? Thats good to know. I thought he said the grandgather first than he changed it to The Godfather because Godfather was better, now I know. That don’t matter though. Godfather of Airguns fits and makes complete sense.
Mitch,
LOL! You sound like someone who is very serious about his plinking. So am I.
Of the two, I also would recommend the Compact. It is my intention to acquire one in the near future. If you do get one and don’t like it, let me know and I am certain we can work something out. 😉
If your wallet can stand it, I would recommend this one.
/product/izh-46m-match-air-pistol?m=78
This is my plinking pistol. Although it is a bit pricey compared to the other two, it has the accuracy to take you to a very serious level of competition. I know my pistol shooting skills will never exceed it’s capabilities.
RidgeRunner,
Thanks for your input, much appreciated. And yes I am lol, gotta have that precision accuracy. I’ve looked at the IZH but that’s more than I wanna spend. I’ll probably spend that much if I end up getting into competition, which I probably will. For now tho, If I spend that much on an air gun, its gonna be on a RWS 54 Air King. I think the Gamo will be sufficient for an entry level 10m plinker.
BB
Did all the Daisy models with this design of the rolled and welded tube use this type of front latch system at the muzzle to secure the shot tube?
If so I guess I could of had a different model. If they did all share this design. Can the shot tubes be interchanged between models?
GF1,
Not at all. Most Daisys have shot tubes that unscrew from the gun. This is different.
Some shot tubes can be exchanged between guns and others can’t. It all depends on the model.
B.B.
BB
So you just have to see what you have and find out what guns came with that type that you have. Then it’s just a simple swap after that.
I guess nobody makes no new replacement parts now days for them do they?
GF1,
They make all the replacement parts for these old BB guns in the same factory that makes new Crosley cars. 😉
B.B.
BB
I guess I must not heard of that car. A Crosley? I’ll have to search that.
So the answer to my question is that parts are still being made by Daisy for replacement.
If that’s so I may just have to keep my eyes open for one of these models. Would make a fun little basement plinker in the winter time.
GF1,
No, that was my weak attempt at humor. I thought you were a car guy and that would tickle you.
A Crosley is a car that hasn’t been made in a half-century. Nobody make parts for these guns.
B.B.
BB
It’s ok. Truthfully some of the 1955 and up to the muscle car era is mostly what I’m familiar with. And I try to keep up with the modern stuff.
And I’m glad you just said that about the bb guns too. Don’t really know much about the older stuff. Kind of like the cars I guess I know about the late 60’s and up air gun stuff. Not all air gun stuff.
So the more info you can spill about these old guns the better. I always like learning. 🙂
Doc was right about that shot keeping me up! I was collecting laundry and looking for my other set of long Allen wrenches and got sidetracked by still having all my metal receiver 760’s still stood on the floor under my older Daisy guns. I found one that was missing a plastic butt stock and cocked it to see if anything would happen, this time I guess I got lucky because it took 3 pumps and had an awesome sweet trigger but when it came time to mount the stock it wasn’t fitting too well because there’s a huge gap between the two halves that hold the nut for it in place.
I tightened it just enough to feel solid and tried again with success and the trigger truly was phenomenal but there’s not enough room or light to fix this without separating the two, moved from the hallway floor to the kitchen counter, it was a mess in there found a broken screw and the safety/ sear engagement spring was on the wrong side of the safety.
It really felt too light for safe use but I know how far a 760 trigger can get.
The one on my 760SS ain’t no slouch either because I dryfired it a few times for comparison and it was darn good for what it is. But it’s time for my 760 to feel more like a gun and less like a plastic toy.
Reb
Did you ever get to unbox your UTG scope?
I got the .22 barrel in the Talon SS last night aftet i got off work. Shot a few shots at a can at 50 yards free hand. Hit everytime. Didn’t even check the sight in after the barrel swap. Getting ready to go out and do that in a minute.
No chrony readings yet either. But its making a pellet go deeper in my test wood than the .177 did. So its looking promising.
Well the (12″) .22 barrel in the Talon SS is great.
Only needed about 3 clicks of up and 1 click of left after the barrel swap. Definite one hole groups at 50 yards with ease. And my hold overs are pretty well the same as they were with the .177 barrel. Yep the .22 is shooting pretty flat.
Guess my 46e is going to have to get use to sharing the JSB Exact 15.89 pellets. And no wonder I was hitting the can at 50 yards last night. The gun was still pretty close on the sight in it had. No time to do chrony yet. That’s got to wait till tomorrow. But for sure happy with it.
B.B.,
As I’ve commented before, I really enjoy reports on vintage air guns. There is always something new to learn.
I love the look of this little guy. All wood and metal, real bluing, engraved markings. That says a lot about manufacturing in the first half of the 20th century.
Thanks for the report,
Michael
I wonder how much weight and rigidity are added by the welding process they used, with the B it almost has the feel of a brass gun even though it’s missing the guts.
Recently stumbled on two Daisy single shots.
Do you drop BB and then cock or cock and
Then drop. My Red Ryder was of the hard
To cock vintage. I had to hold the stock
down on the floor with my foot and pull up
on the lever to cock it. Eventually the stock
loosened and I didn’t know how to fix it. Wish
I stilli had it!!!
Fido3030,
I do it both ways.
B.B.
If either way will work, I’d think dropping the bb then cocking it would be the preferred “safer” method. B.B., I’m with the others, love these vintage reports also!
Thank you both for taking the time to answer
my question!
Now there is a tiny gun. It looks like the kind of gun kids would shoot at each other in the days before liability and eye protection.
I had an enjoyable time leafing through the PA catalog that arrived in the mail last night. There was a very nice appreciation of Edith by Josh Unger. His final paragraph reminded me of a line by R. Lee Ermey in the film Full Metal Jacket where he tells the class of graduating Marines: “Whatever happens, the Marines Corps will live forever, so you will live forever!” Edith remains present in all of the airgun activity going in a thousand different directions that she made possible. Even playing with my new reflex sight the other night is part of a whole world of guns that resulted from PA in which she played such a central part. What a legacy.
Also in the catalog, I see it is too soon for me to get jaundiced. I continue to lament the absence of the IZH line, but we hope it will return some day with a vengeance. But life goes on. What is the deal with the poplar stock on some new Air Arms pcps? I’ve heard of walnut and birch as a less expensive version. And then there is Asian monkey wood. Where does poplar fit into this? It looks very light. And I see in the Air Arms line and some others, some biathlon rifles. As a lover of magazine rifles, I think this is great. But even rimfire biathlon is a highly specialized sport. Where do they have airgun biathlon competitions where people will pay big money for these guns?
In looking at the Anschutz line, I see that one of the aims of German engineering is to put people in the poorhouse. My Anschutz rimfire that is my pride and joy, costing over $2000, looks like a budget model by comparison.
And it was nice to see the smiling Tom Gaylord icon appearing here and there throughout the catalog. How come it is missing from the TX 200 rifle? And on the subject of springers, I noticed that the write up of the RWS 54, another favorite, says that you cannot get a more accurate springer without paying $3,000. What springer would that be? Certainly not the TX 200. All I can think of is the Whiscombe, but that is a custom gun that is not even made any more I don’t believe.
And it was funny to see the Tom Gaylord icon next to both the Beeman P1 and P17 right next to each other. They both have the highest recommendation but what a difference in price from $400 to $34. With price as a factor, I know which one I would get, but both descriptions sounded pretty appealing.
Matt61
B.B.
Please excuse me for going off topic, but I want to ask if you will review the new pellet shooting John Wayne Duke Single Action revolvers?
Charles,
I believe one of those guns is enroute to me now.
B.B.
Thanks for asking! I want to see how the pellet shooters do as well.
Jim
I am not much into BB-guns, was never impressed with the as a kid as our pellet rifles were much more accurate and had greater range.
But now you have me going B.B. I am off to the basement to look over the old Daisy that was given to me 25 or so years ago. Curious what I have down there.
Have a great weekend!
Hank
B.B.,
I seem to recall reading on here — more than once, I think — that if you switch to a heavier pellet than what your rifle is sighted in with, that the point of impact would be higher than that of the heavier pellet. Or am I remembering incorrectly? The reason I ask is because I was shooting today, and switched from a 10.34 gr pellet to a 8.44 gr version — both JSBs. The POI with the lighter pellet was 1″ higher and 1/2″ left of the heavier one. I got a very tight group, so it wasn’t an accuracy problem, just a marked POI shift. I then switched to a different brand, but also 8.44 gr, and it had nearly the same POI as its lighter cousin. Does that sound “normal”?
Second question — When I switched to the different brand of pellet — H & N FTTs — the first shot was off a little, then things settled down into a consistent POI – but not a great group compared to the JSBs. I had a few shots that were “off” by just a little. I was shooting these unsorted, to develop a benchmark. I could feel differences in the pellets as I put them in the rifle — difference in how tightly they fit. Those different fitting pellets all resulted in shots out of the main cluster.
As I thought about the comments I’ve seen about seasoning, I went ahead and shot a second group with the H & Ns, thinking it might improve. It was worse than the first group. Have you experienced that very often?
Jim M.
Jim M,
Glad to see your “still at it”. I just looked back through my 41′ TX targets and the 21.14 H+N’s all shot 1 1/4″ higher than a 13.43 AA’s and 15.89 JSB’s. Yet,…the 13.43’s shot about 3/8″ higher than the 15.89’s.
Go figure?,…….Gunfun one uses “Chairgun”,..a pellet ballistics program,….as I should more. He also recommends “seasoning” go 100 shots. I’ll let him fill you in on any details.
You did not mention gun or yardage. Keep at it…. 😉 Chris
Chris,
It was only at 10m, with an RWS model 52 in .177. I didn’t have time to go to the range, but wanted to start selecting pellets to test at longer range when I get the chance.
I feel comfortable with my technique, and got decent, one large hole groups with both of the JSBs. It was the change in POI that puzzles / fascinates me. And also the pattern with the H&Ns. I know that tin is going to have different head sizes when I sort it — I could feel the difference just loading the 20 pellets I shot. Some were really snug, others loose. I’m going to sort that tin to see how much head size / weight variance there is, and see what that means for grouping, POI, etc.
Your results with the different weights are interesting. The higher POI with the 21 grs makes sense, based on past info from B.B. about heavier pellets remaining in the barrel longer and the effect recoil /rising barrel has. But why did the 13gr hit higher than the 15 gr….?? Strange.
Jim
Jim
Jim M.,
I had not thought about the “time in the barrel” and “muzzle rise”. I should have.
One thing I did figure out was,.. that at 41′,…they all shoot pretty well and it is hard to pick one. Over time, the JSB’s 15.89 and 18.13 did seem to do better at 41′,.. and continued to do well at 25 and 30yds. The only other thing I can think of is try and keep your mag and parralex at the same point while shooting different pellets at your 10 meters. I started shooting 1 or 2 five shot groups and switching pellets. If I were to do it again, I would do at least 3 ten shot groups and then switch pellets.
In the case of picking pellets,…distance is your friend.
I had thought that the heavier pellet would have more retained energy and be higher at closer ranges. I can tell you at 50yds.,….the 21g require more holdover,.. to hit the bull,..and not hit low.
Chairgun from Hawke is good and gives you a general idea of what “should” be going on. Like I said,..I need to explore it more. Chris
Chris,
I finally finished sorting one whole tin of JSBs — well, one tin minus the 40 pellets shot pre-sorting, so 460 total pellets. They were .22 cal, 15.89 gr Jumbo Exacts. I sorted by size and weight, so that took some time. I didn’t weigh the head sizes where there were only a few. I’m throwing those all in one cup to use for seasoning when I switch pellets. Here’s the spread:
Head Size Weight Number of Pellets
5.49mm 1
5.53mm 15.8gr 6
5.53mm 15.9gr 13
5.53mm 16.0gr 32
5.53mm 16.1gr 3
5.53mm 16.3gr 1
5.54mm 15.6gr 1
5.54mm 15.7gr 27
5.54mm 15.8gr 62
5.54mm 15.9gr 112
5.54mm 16.0gr 176
5.54mm 16.1gr 15
5.54mm 16.3gr 1
5.55mm 10
My plan is to see how the 5.53 and 5.54mm perform, in the 15.8 – 16.0 range.
Jim.
Jim M,
Wow, that is quite a job you just did ! Thank you from me and all who shoot the 15.89’s. Overall, the #’s seem pretty good. They are sold as 5.52 head, but your Pelletgage showed other. I think it’s been proven that we can trust the Pelletgage.
What I would take away from your weight and head gauging data is that the 15.89’s are pretty darn consistent,….which may explain why the do so well in so many people’s air guns.
It will be interesting to see if you can tell an accuracy difference at your 10 meters and 25 yards when you get back to the range.
Thanks again for your time. Even at 15 seconds per head and 15 seconds per weight,…you spent 4+ hours collecting your data. I sincerely hope it proves well worth it for you.
Looking forward to more,….Chris
Chris,
One of the things I “feel” I am learning, is that there are slight inconsistencies in the pellet heads. In addition to the Pelletgage and scale, I also used the Speedy Pellet Inspector to quickly look over the heads and skirts of 50 pellets at a time. I could more easily spot differences using that — size of skirt for example — but most often went ahead and left a pellet in the mix if it wasn’t deformed. Then, when measuring using the Pelletgage, I began to feel when pellets are a little out of round. Maybe a pellet goes easily into the 5.54mm hole, but only when it’s at a very slight angle. Yet it falls through the 5.55mm hole, and won’t go into the 5.53mm hole at all. It’s a subtle difference. If I were some sort of precision, competition shooter I would have rejected more pellets. My gut tells me that would have been too picky for our purposes — at least for mine, and I think probably most of us “serious recreational shooters”. I hope that makes sense. Jim M. ( I saw your post about sign offs. Ha ha)
Jim M.,
Saw your comment to BB below. I can assure you that it’s the former, and not the latter. I said the same thing. It is a lot of work and on top of that, you added a 3rd. component to the test, the Speedy Pellet, which I not familiar with.
At any rate,…it comes down to 2 things in my opinion:
1) Having the rifles that are capable of putting shots in the same place,..which you seem to have.
2) Being steady/stabil enough to put the shot there.
I am not steady enough, or, at least it will vary from session to session. Despite all things being the same. If you do consider yourself to be pretty good or very steady, I have no doubt that you (will see) results.
Considering JSB’s come from the Czech Republic,..it’s a miracle they are in the “perfect condtion” they are and not a mashed-up mess.
Keep at it and thanks again for your hard work. Chris
Jim,
I must comment — that was a very labor-intensive project. I hope you get some results that make your time worth it.
B.B.
B.B.,
I’m smiling as I write this! I can’t help but wonder if you’re saying, “Hey, you worked hard on this. Thanks for sharing the info.” Or, if you’re saying, “Wow! What an idiot for wasting all that time sorting pellets!” Haha! Either way, I just had to throw that out there.
Who knows, maybe I don’t get anything conclusive, and I never sort pellets again. I am really interested in finding out if there’s enough benefit for the hunter / recreational accuracy seeker, etc. of sorting pellets — and what the results are of sorting by head size alone, by weight alone, and of doing both. It’ll take awhile, but I’ll keep posting my findings.
Jim
Jim,
When you think about me and airguns, the answer is never that I think you are waisting time. I am really impressed by what you did and I hope something good comes from it.
B.B.
Jim,
I don’t think I can tell you why things are happening the way they are. The hold has a lot to do with shot placement. As for seasoning the bore, there might be something to it, but not with just one pellet. Usually it takes 20-30 pellets to season a bore.
B.B.
Gunfun I didn’t see a comment from you so started this one.
Reb
Look at the end cap that screws on to the gun after you put a cartridge in. See that slot. I put a quarter in that slot and tighten the cap pretty tight down on the cartridge.
I think you are not using enough pressure to fully pierce the cartridge. Try that on your next one.
It says finger tight in the manual s that’s what I been doing, but with authority. I’ll give it a shot but I’ll go ahead and pull the valve too anyways so I can address the transfer port issue while I got it down this far.
I gotta work station setup on top of the stove supplemented by my desk lamp(best light in this apartment by far!) I’ve got microwaveables and enough patience to do this right and make this gun one of my best projects.
Reb
Let me know what you find when you get into it.
Just got done eating and gonna check out this leapers before I get moly all over my hands again.
Back on this one again, got a couple pieces of tubing I’m gonna try if necessary.
I put the UTG on the 2400 for now and waiting to see if it gets warm enough to open up again.
Well the precise tolerance of the rings makes them very easy to work with, had to ditch the scope stop and woulda used the hole for the stop pin but ran outta rail so I slid it as far back as I could and locked it down good then clinched that up with the pin due to loading restrictions on the QB-88.
Reb
So did you look through that scope yet to see how sharp and bright it is?
It’s a nice little scope for the price.
I did but it was already dark and cold outside so all I’ve really seen so far is about 6 yds to my back door in poor light. I don’t think I can pull another all nighter, after staying up til 6:00 3 nights straight my body’s aching al over and I got caught standing wrong a couple times by my back so knockin’ off til daylight tomorrow.
Reb
You can look across your apartment room inside and tell if that scope has got a nice picture.
With it being a fixed 4 magnification scope with adjustable parallax it should give you a very bright and sharp picture if you adjust the parallax to focus at what your looking at. I think that scope will go from 5 yards to infinity. Plus it has a wide feild of veiw.
It’s very good scope for rabbit or sqerrial wacking.
It’s nice and clear, I’ve got the back door open right now and trying to level the reticle but every time I start locking it down by their torque pattern. When I see a pellet strike I’ll know how much I like it. I did see a fly buzzing around at the door last night but it never landed.
I ran a couple pellets though it and can’t see trying to shoot it like that, looks like it may go on the Impact instead.
I really thought it deserves a diopter setup anyway.
Took a couple shots with the UTG 4×32 through the 2400 this morning and I’m gonna be glad I got it.
My first shot landed 3 mil dots low so I plugged in the 3 dots and wham-O!
It’s still very overcast and drizzly so I probably won’t be doing much shooting but I picked up some stuff for my work table and a movie along with some Colorado kool-aid and I’ll catch up on laundry while building this 2240.
Reb
That’s a front focus scope wasn’t it?
Did you try focusing up close to see if it focused sharp?
Problem is I only got 10 yds to target,I’ve played with it a little for sure but until I get somewhere else with it I won’t have any range to play with. As soon as the weather ain’t nasty I’ll definitely be trying to get somewhere with it.
Just had a lightning strike within a few miles so I’m socked in for the day today.
I had some old Skavia and HyScore pellet guns for parts. Then I came across one of your old blogs on leather seals. Now I don’t have any parts guns because they shoot fine!!! Thank you again!
Awesome! If there’s anything wrong with the one in my QB-36 I’ll have to try it because I’d kinda like to keep it like that.
A suggestion,….
When signing at the end of a comment,..do it at the side of the last sentence. Why? On a blog that can run over 100 comments,…think of all the scrolling that can be saved. Maybe not “proper”…but,..just an idea,…Chris
GF1
Never had an 8 track . Used a cassette recorder to load up cassettes with what I wanted from the LPs then played them in the house and the car .
Had room to install things under the dash back then . Had a cassette and a CB under the dash in the Baracuda .
The good old days with reverb units, color organs, rock and roll .
Should have bought a really good component system when I was on Okinawa . You could still get great systems back then .
Now they have “noise laws” . You can be busted if the person in the car next to you can hear your stereo at all . So I can only crank it up out in the country. The guys with the megawatt subwoofers can be thanked for that . Can hear them coming and going for a mile or more ….”BOOM—BOOM BOOM “.
twotalon
The 8 tracks got cheap before the cassette became widely available.
Mini- suitcases for a couple bucks and they were much more portable than discs of the day. My ’78 MarkHam had a deck as well as most ElDorado’s and Tornado’s. I had a couple Kiss Sabbath and some Ozzy that I played in the Lincoln but when I was a kid my mom & dad would come home with them and take out all the old country and beebop and I would go through what was leftover.
A good clean deck and not running trash in it could give no problem for years but that’s where the “component system” you mentioned earlier comes in.
Mine took up 1 whole wall in y bedroom.
’78 Mark V.
TT
I only had a few cars with the 8 tracks in them. I think that might of been around 1976. Then it was all cassette’s after that. I remember wearing out two Pink Floyd “The Wall” cassette’s when that came out. Played it in my 72 Z/28 I had at the time. Probably was around 1980 I think. Had a graphic equilizer and one of the old Pioneer Supertuners in it. Can’t remember what speakers I had in the back deck but I know they were 6×9’s and it was a very loud, crisp and clear system. Had to have something like that so you could hear it over the old glass pack mufflers comming right off the headers and nothing after that.
Oh and we all had CB’s and police scanners too. You just never knew when a race would pull up next to you. It was a good way to know where everybody was including those cars that had those flashing lights ontop.
And never had one of those bass boomers. I like to hear all the music not just the bass. Just never got into that.
I saw one of these today complete and functional at a antique auction in Kewaskum, wi.
It has some heavy rust, but works, it went for $15.
They had a old red rider, a daisy 96 new in box, and a daisy first model targeteer, but it was badly rusted too.
There were many firearms, but Not many people were looking at the airguns. Just us “strange” people.
I hit a couple auctions with one of my buddies when I lived in East Texas but don’t see many around here. I’d like to go again but I don’t have as much space as I did back then.
IdA probably grabbed that old BB gun just for curiosity’s sake.