Soon comes the BB gage?: Part 6

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

Pelletgage
The Pelletgage comes in .177 and .22 caliber at the present. A gage to measure BBs is coming.

This report covers:

  • Why sort BBs?
  • They must be uniform — right?
  • Measure with calipers
  • Odd one out
  • Out of round
  • The results
  • What does this mean?
  • The test
  • Out of round
  • 4.38 mm
  • 4.39 mm
  • So — sort them or not?

This report was unplanned. I was getting my Beeman R1 prepared for a return to the 25-yard accuracy test for today when a shocking development popped up. At least it was shocking to me. I’ll let you decide for yourselves.

Jerry Cupples, the Pelletgage maker, is working on a BB gage that will do the same thing as the Pelletgage, except BBs don’t have heads. The BB gage will measure the outer circumference of the BB, allowing shooters to sort BBs by size. Think about that for a moment.

Why sort BBs?

Where lead pellets can be remarkably accurate, the common steel BB has limitations that everyone knows and accepts. BBs just aren’t that accurate. Except for one. Daisy’s Avanti Precision Ground Shot can be stunning when fired from a Daisy Avanti Champion 499 BB gun at 5 meters. We all know that from numerous tests I have conducted for this blog.

Almost no one has a reason to sort steel BBs by size. The one exception would be these BBs. Thousands of kids compete each year in Daisy’s National BB Gun Championship Match competition that culminates in Rogers, Arkansas. There, the best shooters from around the country gather to find out who is the fairest in the land. Surely those kids would embrace any advantage they could. What if sorting BBs by size gave them that advantage?

They must be uniform — right?

I figured that trying to sort these Precision Ground Shot would be about as exciting as a priest taking confessions at a convent. How much difference could there be? Boy, was I shocked to learn the answer!

Not only are these match BBs not uniform, they are all over the place! Let’s look.

Measure with calipers

Knowing that the BB gage was coming, I decided to test-measure a few Precision Ground Shot with calipers — just to verify my feelings of their uniformity. The first few measured 0.173-inches on the nose. My electronic caliper reads in ten-thousandths, so I would have known if these BBs were off by even that slight amount. But they weren’t — at least not initially.

I measured each BB at several places on its diameter. A spherical shape is far easier to measure with a caliper than the chord of a round pellet head, so this went fast. At some point I switched the readout from inches to millimeters. Now all the BBs measured 4.39mm.

Odd one out

Then, one didn’t measure 4.39 mm! It was 4.38 mm. Oh, well — I figured this one was the odd one that slipped through quality control. Maybe there is a need for the BB gage after all. Then another one didn’t measure 4.39 mm. This one measured 4.41 mm. Then another and another, until I was gathering a pile of BBs that were everything except 4.39 mm.

Out of round

I was still measuring at several different places on the diameter of the BBs when I found one that ranged from 4.39 mm to 4.41 mm. Not only was this one odd-sized — it was also out of round! I wondered how many more like it were in the box. Quite a few, as it turned out.

The results

When all was said and done, I spent perhaps 45 minutes and checked 65 BBs. By far the largest group was out of round and measures anywhere from 4.38 mm to 4.44 mm — sometimes on a single BB! The total distribution looks like this.

Quantity…………………….Size
31………………………..Out of round (4.38 mm to 4.44 mm)
13…………………………..4.38 mm
15…………………………..4.39 mm
2…………………………..4.40 mm
4…………………………..4.41 mm

Precision Ground Shot groups
Instead of being uniform, the Precision Ground Shot varied greatly in diameter.

That was not what I expected. I hadn’t even planned on measuring that many BBs. But when I saw the results, I couldn’t stop.

What does this mean?

Well, the rock has been turned over and now we see what’s underneath. Where do we go from here? I have been testing the 499 for about 15 years and never had a clue what I was shooting in it. I knew the Precision Ground Shot were more accurate than other BBs, and I could tell they took the longest to roll down the barrel at loading, so they must be larger. There were differences in the amount of time they took to roll down the barrel, but I never gave much thought to what that might mean. Now it’s like an accident on the highway. I can’t just drive by — I have to look.

After sorting I had three groups of BBs from which I could draw 10 to shoot a group — 4.38 mm, 4.39 mm and those that are out of round. So I set up targets at 5 meters and proceeded to shoot my 499.

The test

I shot seated, with the gun rested on the UTG monopod. Each of the 30 shots released as good as I could expect. I am not a great shot, but if the difference between the groups is large, we will know or at least suspect the BBs have something to do with it.

Out of round

First up were 10 BBs that were out of round. They varied in size from 4.38 mm to 4.44 mm — sometimes on the same BB! I made no attempt to select them — just shot the first 10 out of the bag. These rolled down the barrel at varying speeds, so I could tell they weren’t the same size. Most were slow, which I would think is desirable, but the target will tell.

Ten BBs made a group that measures 0.35-inches between centers at 5 meters. I put wide cellophane tape on the back of the target to preserve the hole made by the BBs. While this is a pretty good group for me, I note that all the shots landed high on the target. That will become apparent as the test progresses.

Precision Ground Shot out of round
Ten out-of-round BBs went into 0.35-inches at 5 meters. Notice how high they landed on the target.

4.38 mm

Next I shot 10 BBs that measured 4.38 mm diameter. These had been checked for size in several different places. so I believe they are really spherical. Ten went into 0.294-inches at 5 meters and, while they are still high on the target, they are not as high as the first group.

Precision Ground Shot 4.38
Ten 4.38 mm BBs went into 0.294-inches at 5 meters. These did not go as high as the first group.

While I can’t say for certain that there is a difference in accuracy with just 2 groups fired, these are 10-shot groups. They are much more indicative of the true performance than 5-shot groups. I’m saying I think there is a small difference in accuracy.

4.39 mm

The last BBs I shot were those that measured 4.39 mm in diameter. Remember that I measured each of these BBs in several different places, and if there was any variation whatsoever, they were put into the out-of-round group. This time 10 BBs went into 0.525-inches in the center of the bullseye. This is the largest group of the test by far and also the one that landed lowest on the target.

Precision Ground Shot 4.39
Ten 4.39 mm BBs went into 0.525-inches at 5 meters. These BBs are the most centered on target, but also the largest group by far.

Once again I caution anyone from making definite conclusions about these few results. All they have shown me is there might be an accuracy difference between sorted BBs and unsorted BBs. And if the 4.38 mm BBs continue to group like they did, a sight adjustment would result in a perfect score. That can’t be said about either of the other 2 BB groups that were tested.

So — sort them or not?

If I were a competitor in this championship, you can be sure I would be sorting BBs. In fact, I now wonder whether the other premium BBs on the market can be sorted to produce similar results in the 499? I think this opens up a whole can of worms as far as BB gun accuracy is concerned.

Jerry Cupples, you need to develop that BB gage. I think the market is ready for it.

83 thoughts on “Soon comes the BB gage?: Part 6

  1. Not surprising that BB’s aren’t uniform in overall size or on one of their spherical hemisphere’s.

    Certainly agree that there is an immediate demand, especially from the competition shooters, for a product like the pellet gage to properly sort BB’s so the competitor would have an advantage.

    My conundrum is imagining how a BB gage would work vs. a pellet gage since a pellet gage only has to measure 180* of a surface and a BB gage must measure 360* of surface.

    Perhaps a BB gage would have a significantly greater depth/thickness in order to allow the BB to rotate, potentially?, 360* while it’s traveling through the gage to be effective?

    kevin


  2. Very interesting test. Maybe there would be a market for manufactures to market a true, sorted, precision bb. As a bb pistol shooter I sure would be interested in trying more precision sized BBs . That leads to another subject. If we could get precision BBs, why not market a target type bb pistol. Something with a good adjustable rear sight, both for windage and elevation. Great read and Happy Veteran’s Day BB .
    Harvey


    • Harvey,

      About 10 years ago when Daisy still went to the SHOT Show, Joe Murfin showed me a 10 meter pistol that shot airsoft BBs. I was very excited to see it, but unfortunately nothing ever came of it.

      There are more things out there than we know about, here in the U.S,

      B.B.


      • B.B.,

        The most accurate air pistols I have for 15-20 feet indoors are spring airsoft, a KWC Taurus PT 24/7 and a Smith & Wesson M&P 40. Both have the BAXs hop up system. They will hit a quarter almost every time at those distances, shot one-handed and unrested, by me, a confirmed lousy shot with a pistol. Outdoors and /or at greater distances I have pellet pistols that are extremely accurate, but man, if a springer air soft pistol with BAXs could shoot a .40 grain 6mm airsoft “BB” at, say, 175-200 fps, I would expect it to be quite accurate at 10 meters.

        Michael

        Michael


      • If we got a good BB gauge, sorted our bb’s to get a nice round uniform match, I think it would be q game changer. No longer would we hear that familiar term,” occasional flyer “. We should see better groups from most of the bb guns tested. Interesting idea.


  3. 5 meters isnt going to show much, and even for plinking or fun target shoots almost anybody besides purpose driven competition shooters are going to be at 10 yards or more. If 5 meters is the competition standard thats the distance for that purpose, but for testing the effectiveness of sorting bbs we need more flight time please.


  4. I do believe the bb gage is a good idea. Especially if you are a competitor.

    But I do think the bb gage needs to be designed a little different then the pellet gage.

    I believe that each different hole size in the gage should be a tapered hole. Similar to a 499 barrel. And the hole depth needs to be at the minimum 2 or 3 times deeper than the bb diameter. All holes would be the same depth. Say .750″ deep. But each hole would start out bigger than the finish diameter of the hole that the bb would or wouldn’t pass through.

    I would say that the heavy side of the bb would always try to end up facing down. The heavy side should be the bigger diameter. I’m not saying that will be what happens every time a bb rolls down the gages tapered hole. But I would say the chances are the greatest for that to happen.

    I say make the bb gage. Somebody out there will appreciate it.


  5. B.B.,

    Thanks for doing the caliper sorting test. Quite interesting. I shoot my 499 at 21′ and can get a 3/8″ 10 shot group on a fairly regular basis. Still,…..I get a the occasional “flyer”.

    Since comments are coming in as to suggested design aspects,…I am going to throw my 2 cents in.

    How about 2 pieces of key/bar stock layed parallel to each other. Spacing would be 4.38mm at one end and open up to 4.44 at the other end. The 2 bars would be set at a slight, (very slight) down hill slope. The bb would (slowly) roll down the ramp and it would fall through at the correct diameter and fall in a little sort bin below. I’ll go out on a limb and say the “bbgage” may not look anything like the Pelletgage. It may rely on something other than a precision hole.

    Chris




      • BB and Chris.

        I think Chris has a great idea.

        I kind of Invision it like this. Solid metal plate for the bottom about 2.500″ wide x 6″ long. Then there would be a little block to rise one end 1″.

        The end that is raised would be where you lay the bb. That would be the biggest opening on the rails. Then the rails would be smallest at the other end.

        There would be no holes in the bottom. Just the solid piece of metal for the floor. So the bb would roll from the raised big end to small lower end. The bb would stop at a place as it roles down.

        And it wouldn’t be difficult to have measurements on the top of one rail. All would be needed is lines marked going down the rail. A caliper or something can measure the gage at the lines marked going down the top of the rail. Then wrote next to the line. There would only be probably 2″ of the gage that would need marked.

        The whole idea is it would give you a quick visual of where the bb stops. So even if the marks didn’t have a measurement wrote by the line you could pick the bb up out of the gage and say ok this one stopped at line one. Or this 1 stopped farther down at line 3. Then you would have the labled plastic bags that would have line 1 and so on for each bag.

        Then if you want you could measure a few bb’s from each bag and then refer to that bag of line 1 bb’s to be a certain size.

        So the gage wouldn’t need actual measurements on it just marks and the person using the gage can call it what you want.

        Matter of fact that same have would work for pellets. You could just slide the pellet down the gage and reference where the pellet stops. And if the rails were high enough to be just above a BB it would still be lower than the overall hieght if a pellet.

        So a bb could be measured or the head of the pellet or even flip the pellet over and set the skirt down first and you could measure the skirt of the pellet. Of course you would have to hold the pellet the whole time you slid it. You wouldn’t roll it any kind of way.

        Hope that made sense. But I think that would be a way to segregate sizes pretty quick.



          • RDNA
            Yep I’m sure people somewhere out there in the world have already made their own pellet or even bb sorting gages.

            Maybe they are competitors. Sometimes when you are in feirce competition you don’t let your secrets be exsposed. I know it was that way in the drag racing world when I raced. But also on the other hand there was the competitors that was willing to help somebody any way they could.

            But you can see what I mean. I bet there is already things people have made but just don’t let it be known.


        • GF1,

          Thanks for the support on the idea. Mine was more of a “roll down and drop through” idea. Yours is good as well and seems to more of a “stop” idea. Depending on the “roll speed”,…the bb would “fall forward”, hence the (slow roll) and hence the need for the “bins” to set forward of the actual “drop off” point of the bars.

          2 pieces of key stock, shimmed at each end and held with rubber bands would test the idea. I would roll from small to large. I see your idea with the bb’s getting jammed at the tight end and having to poke them out. Mine would use leveler screws to set the roll speed depending on your work surface level,….to set the roll speed. Slower the better. 1/8″ drop from narrow to wide,…maybe even a 1/16″.

          As for out of round bb’s,….Mmmmmm…..I envision an egg. The “sound” of the roll would be different. The “wide” dimension would be on the up and down axis of the roll. How to sort these would be an issue.

          At any rate,….cool article and cool ideas. Chris


          • Chris USA
            Yep I think it would work good. And it would be simple to make.

            You wouldn’t have to worry about setting the rails precily at a given dimension. Well maybe at the beginning of the gage or the biggest opening it would have to be maybe a 1/16″ bigger than the biggest bb or if dual use the biggest pellet caliber you want to test. The end of the rails would need to be smaller across than the bb diameter.

            There would just be marks on the rail to reference a size at where the bb or pellet stopped. There would not be no force at all. The bb or pellet should be able to fall out of the gage if you flipped it over after you determined what group of pellets or bb’s it should go with.

            I like it. Do you know how easy it would be for me to make one at work. Real easy.


            • GF1,

              Yea,…the minute I saw, (and thought of) ideas,…I thought of you and your machining expererience. Key stock is on the shopping list for this weekend. Will do as I said above and mark every cm. or inch or so,..and see where they fall. 2′ long should be a good start, but 1′ would work as well. Slow roll would be the key,…and,…making sure there is no bow in the middle of the “rails”.

              Your idea is more solid and has near zero variables. Mine is quicker. Placing the “bins” below would be a factor. I have some small parts boxes that should work for a test run. About 7 bins accross a 1′.

              Make one,…..play with it. You even got anything that shoots bb’s? 😉 Chris


              • Chris USA
                Nothing that shoots bb’s anymore. Had one that was semi-auto and could also fire 6 round bursts. Didn’t do no precise target shooting with it. Just destroyed cans out a 20 yards. 🙂

                But I think you missed something I said. I would also use the gage I’m talking about with the flat solid floor as a pellet gage also.

                If the rails only came up as high as the waist of the pellet that rail gage could be used for pellets also. You could put the skirt down on the floor of the gage and slde it down till it stopped. That would check skirt diameter. Now flip the pellet over and touch the top of the pellet head on the floor of the gage. You would have to hold onto the skirt of the pellet to slide to check the head though for round nose pellets. If you had flat nose was cutters you could lay the flat head on the floor and slide it.

                And if you made the rails the height of the waist of the pellet a BB should still be able to be rolled down the gage between the rails.

                If the gage was made 6″ long you would have a dual purpose pocket gage so to speak. It would be able to be carried with you pretty easy.


                • GF1,

                  Sounds good. I did not miss your point, but when it comes to pellets,..the Pelletgage seems best. On the other hand,…you did mention skirt sizing as well. I still think that the skirt sizing will be taken care of by the barrel size. But,..then there in lies the issue of interference fit, as in head size. Mmmmm?.

                  Pocket gauge idea is awesome, but I would want to do all my sorting ahead of time.

                  Sunday is supposed to be ok. Hope to get out and do some 50 yds. for the heck of it. Hopefully no interuptions. If I get 1″,…I will be thrilled. Chris


      • B.B.,

        Thanks. See comment to GF1 below. His was more of a “stop” design and mine was more of a “drop through” design. Roll, drop, shoot.The straightness of the bars would be the biggest factor. Plus,….the taper would allow for “infinite” measurements.

        It does sound as if Jerry C. has gone with the “hole” idea.

        Nice article and interesting topic. I look forward to upcoming testing. Chris




  6. Good morning, all!

    Tom – as you know I do have a prototype BBGage, but before offering for sale it will be necessary to use class X plug gages to calibrate the apertures. Measuring the apertures can be a challenge, too (so I learned). The precision of the hole diameters will be +/- 2.5 microns of indicated diameter. “dialing in” the machine program to cut holes of this accuracy has an element of trial and error, as we are pushing the limit of the process capability.

    The ideas I’m reading are all interesting. Pelletgages have ten micron “steps” in diameter, so the range of the gage apertures is 90 microns, or 0.0036″ Your caliper measurement indicates a skewed distribution, nominally about 4.39mm (0.173″). This will be the basis for trials.

    The matter of how to check for sphericity of the BB is a challenge. Pellets have a rotational axis, where BB’s don’t – but it would be a step forward to be able to size quickly and accurately, even so.

    You can expect something within a few weeks. See the pelletgage website and Facebook page – I invite discussion there!

    cheers,

    Jerry


    • Jerry
      Please read my comment I made above to BB and Chris about Chris’s idea.

      I don’t think you would have to actually measure the gage. Only have reference marks. The person sorting the bb or pellet could identify the size after they put them in the bags of different labbled bb’s or pellets.

      I’m talking about the gage with the fails that the bb would roll down or you would slide a pellet.

      Maybe you could offer 2 types of gages.


    • Jerry,

      I wrote this report for you, too. I wanted you to know what I found, to help you with the BB gage.

      Yes, it’s a different instrument and the operation may also have to change, but if shooters can sort BBs I predict a new interest in target shooting.

      B.B.


      • I just thought of a question, which diameter will be forced to slide in the barrel? Will the air pressure turn the larger diameter to the bore, trying to close it off? or will the smaller diameter try centering to allow the air around the bb?


        • RDNA
          I brought this up before. A bb in a smooth bore barrel is way different than a pellet in a rifled barrel.

          From what I see at work with or air flow gages to test if a device we are manufacturing holds it seal. The air will try to pass around the bb as its pushed up the clear tube. The bb will be trying to center itself as it moves down the barrel in the bb gun.

          The flow gage we have you can watch the round ball in the clear tube always rotating. So I’m sure that out of round bb going down a barrel is getting bounced around in the barrel as its moving. So the most precise fit would be the best.

          I would say the bb’s bigest diameter that is closest to the precise size of the barrel bore would center itself the best as it slides out of the barrel.


  7. B.B.,

    This report is maybe enough o make my day! Why sort? Why NOT sort? I’ve begun measuring diameter and length and putting markings on all of my powerlets. Different air guns like different lengths and sometimes even particular diameters.

    For Christamas, or perhaps for my birthday which comes a bit after the holidays, I think a few pellet gages are on my list for Santa.

    Michael

    Michael


  8. Michael asked what I think of the Crosman GI 1911. Once I started writing I decided to post in the current blog lest someone might find my thoughts interesting or in need of correction. I am open to all of it. First though, I am including my response to Michael regarding the Remington and other 1911 replicas.

    Michael, I agree and understand why you excluded the two pistols. We were after slightly different ends. I wanted to report that all of the pistols I listed are made by KWC and all have the exact same base. As you say, these two are modernized. Tacky is a good word to describe the Blackwater, but you and I aren’t 14 any longer.
    BTW, I definitely prefer the tactical white dot sights to the original.

    The Crosman is so different it is difficult to say. What I like about it is that overall it is fairly true to the 1911 in appearance and feel. It has the scallops but it has a long trigger blade, the main spring housing is flat. It is double action only which means you can’t even rack the slide to cock the hammer for even one single action shot. The hammer is strictly for which is strictly for appearance, otherwise it is useless. The grip safety looks and acts real but like the Winchester Model 11 has no mechanical function. The manual safety on the Crosman is purely cosmetic. The Model 11 manual safety does actually work and the annoying button can be removed with a bit of careful modding and warranty voiding.

    I like that it uses a hex wrench and that seating the cartridge is just like doing so with my Commander, except that the cartridge housing does not come out of the grip. At first glance it seems nice that the hex wrench is cleverly hidden in the grip, at least it would be if not for some weak links.

    The left side stock (I got this term from numerous diagrams but reputable sources also call it a grip), is held in place by a type of spring (the name escapes me at the moment). The grip must be removed to access the cartridge housing and the parts needed to install a cartridge. Essentially the grip is pried loose. That is ok but the spring is low quality and will not last long. When that spring goes, you also lose what is needed to keep the hex wrench in place (a bit of interlocking parts with that weak link).

    What I think of this pistol is that it looks good enough to display with its brethren but not one I expect to actually load up and go plinking with. Well, that is most likely due to the long trigger blade and stiff double action. I do practice my grip, sighting and I do pull the trigger the seven or eight times I can actually complete the cycle.
    I was a bit disappointed, mostly with myself, because I could have known all of this before I purchased the pistol. I believe I would have bought the Winchester model 11 if I had done a bit of research beforehand. The M11 has a few flaws but, overall, I believe it could be a more authentic piece with a bit of tinkering. The remaining issue for me is that the M11 is meant to use shorter cartridges. Not much shorter, but enough to make getting Crosman cartridges out of the pistol more difficult. B.B. mentioned the issue in his report of the M11. The rest is cosmetic and after I void the warranty I believe I can make that deficiency less obvious.
    Just some thoughts off the cuff.
    ~ken


    • Ken,

      Thanks for the detailed review. Somewhere down the road I think a Commander might be in my future (already have a Tanfoglio Witness)

      Regarding Crosman Powerlet length, I bought the 500 count of them from Pyramyd Air about a year ago.
      Crosman Powerlet’s length varies quite a bit, to the point that some air guns I have that many consider not able to use Crosman Powerlets indeed are able to accommodate the shortest Powerlets I sort from the box with no problem. For the record, I always put TWO drops of Pellgunoil on every Powerlet, one on the tip, but also one on the round end to provide lubrication for when I tighten them up. That helps them slide out when I wish to extract them.

      Crosman Powerlets are pretty uniform in diameter except at the neck, where I find a surprising degree of variation, relative to the overall small circumference of the tip. I use the narrowest ones in my Slavia APP 661 (12 gram model, I also have an 8 gram one) as it really needs that.

      Michael


  9. You know that made me start thinking about something after everybody started mentioning about ways the bb gage could be made.

    What would be nice is if there is any bb competitors out there. Could they maybe tell of their experience of how they check their bb’s. That is if they even do of course.

    And possibly they could say what they like to see in a bb sorting gage. They could possibly already have ideas of what they would like but nobody makes yet. Maybe it’s going to be something that the new bb gage or ideas we have talked about won’t be. I would like to hear from them also.


  10. Different diameter = different mass = different velocity?
    Seems to me there would be a change in velocity based upon the size and weight difference in the BB sizes. Differing BB sizes having more “blow by” and less chance to be affected by the rifling (if present). If no rifling present then riding the bore might impart a spin on the BB. Sort of like the “Hop up” mechanism in Airsoft.
    Might also explain fliers and other oddities.
    Seems like a sorted BB velocity test might be in order!


    • Silver Eagle
      I just told RDNA about a gage we have at work that has a ball in a clear tube. The ball rises and is centered in the tube by the air blowing past the ball. And the ball is always spinning.

      So I believe your right that’s helping stabilize the bb as it flys. Kind of like rifling does to a pellet.

      But the hope up on a air soft ball is something different. It’s a device that is on the barrel that protrudes into the barrel. As the airsoft ball passes by it hits that and starts the ball spinning. It’s usually on the top of the barrel and it puts up spin on the air soft ball.

      You can adjust the hop up so it’s hit harder or less as the ball passes by. That’s how you can adjust the air soft balls trajectory. If you know what your doing you can get a pretty flat trajectory and the ball will fly alot farther than if no upward spin was induced.

      I had some sniper air soft guns and they were actually pretty darn accurate and powerful out to 35 yards. I could hit a breaverage can 9 out of 10 times and the air soft ball would pass through one side of the can and sometimes both sides of the can. Pretty cool stuff actually.


  11. Has anybody seen the guy, florida bullfrog, on youtube? He has a bullpup stock on a mrod… interesting. I can decide if its home carved or aftermarket but it looks a little blocky and unrefined. It got me thinking though.. where to find a seasoned block of walnut?… 🙂 if you have an offset scope mount from the front rail you could get on it some, the only thing is crowding your arm up to get to the trigger. If I carve one it wont be nearly as short of pull as what you see if you check it out but.. Im looking into it. Im offhand almost all the time and lthinking about transport and woodswalking. Would be pretty cool to custom carve your own stock melting into your hold.


    • RDNA
      I believe there are bullpup conversions out there if you search it.

      Maybe that way you’ll also get some ideas on how your going to relocate your trigger. Remember the trigger will be almost all the way back by your shoulder if you move the action back in the stock.


      • Ok, yup, there is a linkage. One video its hard to tell but I want back and found another video taking it apart. Id still like to carve the stock out myself, maybe be able to get just the linkage and mount attachment “chassis”. Well, there’s one winter project on the list!



        • RDNA
          Cool but do your homework.

          The triggers and line of sight are the biggest downfalls of bullpups.

          The triggers are either spongy feeling or have crazy hard trigger pull. Takes some well thought out linkages to feel a true crisp 2 stage trigger break on a bull pup.

          And the line of sight is alot like a AirForce gun. You have to have a high scope mount ( which I don’t like ). Or if you use a scope mount that keeps the scope close to the barrel you have to bury your cheek into the comb of the stock.

          Plus you have to come up with a way to have dove tails or picatinny/weaver rails mounted forward of the breech.

          There’s alot to do to convert a conventional action to a bullpup. And I’ll stress to keep it comfortable when you shoot.

          But I got confidence that you can do it if you research it a little. I always liked the bullpups. But I know what’s involved to have a good one. So I ain’t tackled a conversion yet.

          And I just can’t never justify changing my good shooting comfortable Marauder around to make a bullpup.

          Let me know what you come up with though. Always interested in good info.


          • I know what you mean, im going to take it one step at a time, first id getting a good chunk of wood, that in itself is going to take awhile especially if I cut and dry it myself because im not paying 300$ for a little piece of raw wood no matter how nice the grain is. I would rather cut a tree and know I did it all from scratch. If birch is any good I already have some big logs from a tree we just cut at work. The grain may be plain but for the intricacy of a bullpup stock might be worth the ease of working. Im not 100% on the durability of birch but im going to get one of the logs to check it out, if I dont like it I will go find a walnut on land my family owns.


  12. I’m glad the BBgage is on the way! Not only could the guys and girls use the help in their competitions but I’ve been waiting for a way to sort lead shot for my guns for a while, it became an even bigger deal when I got one of my vintage 102 shot tubes jammed.
    My order came in and the 2240 is definitely a different gun than my 2400
    I put 10 CPHP’s through it just to get a feel for it and it did pretty well considering it’s the first group and first pellet I’ve tried in it but the muzzle flip is gonna add a little more challenge.



  13. The sorting of bbs is a natural extension of the idea of sorting pellets, but it seems to me, at the moment, that there are some real obstacles. First, if the bbs really are of different sizes with no grouping (like lot number), then it won’t matter how you sort them. Groupings will be arbitrary if there really is variation between one and other. Secondly, my understanding of bb accuracy, based entirely on blogs about the Daisy 499, is that bb accuracy depends entirely on the fit of the bb to the barrel. You have to have both factors. If your bb is too small it will bounce back and forth in the shot tube and once this behavior starts it wouldn’t seem to matter by how much your bb is too small. Fit would seem to be an all or nothing proposition.

    Still, I have come to a new appreciation of tinkering with ammunition with my reloading. I’ve found for my most recent batch of used 30-06 cases, that I have to do a great deal of case trimming, more than ever before. By pressing to hard with the case trimmer, the blades would go too deep in the brass and get stuck, causing a real mess. I’ve discussed a variety of methods with Duskwight and TPC, but for the time being I’m sticking with the hand trimmer and relying on technique. The game is to apply steady light pressure in a circumferential direction where the blades are cutting. If I go too deep, I back off infinitesimal thousandths of an inch and cut the very tip off the obstruction that is blocking my trimming blades. What intimacy with the metal! I have always viewed mechanical things as the province of experts and factories, and one of the thrills in working with guns is learning that I can enter into this world myself in a small way. And you get a pretty close relationship with the metal in trimming these fractions of an inch by hand.

    On another note, I narrowly avoided severe embarrassment last night. With great glee, I unboxed my $24 reflex sight with a choice of reticles in red and green. I assembled and mounted it, threw the switch like Frankenstein, and nothing. After trying all the controls to no avail, I boxed up the item and put in an online order for a refund. Then while surfing the internet, I realized that I had the darn thing on backwards. I was wondering why I found myself looking down into the mechanism. Properly oriented it works great although the more complicated reticles are fuzzy. I guess here is where the low price shows up. Generating power is one thing, and making the output precise is another. Incidentally, I wonder if I damaged my vision by looking directly into the light source of the sight when I had it on backwards. Does anyone know if the light source for these red dot sights is a laser or just a colored light?

    Ken, you’re right about use of the handgun. Mine are strictly for the range and wouldn’t be ideal for concealment. Although here I expect that the 1911 would excel because of its slim profile. One thing I’ve had against Glock concealment (in theory) is the wide profile and the lack of a manual safety. Certain sitting positions can have a locked and loaded gun with the muzzle pointed very close to the femoral artery. And it seems like there have been stories about Glock discharges while people are sitting. One of them was a teacher who was sitting on the toilet.

    Matt61


    • The only dot sight I have personal experience with is my Daisy pointed sight but on it the laser is a little bump that projects onto the rear of the lens.
      Definitely avoid prolonged exposure with this sight.
      I guess your opthamologist would be the best person to assess the retinal damage your eyes have sustained if any


    • Matt61, it sounds like a person could get a serious case of Glock Itch. Not really a good pun but I’ll leave it. Seriously, you have always written interesting posts. ~ken


      • Thanks for your kind words. But I have great material to work with. If you haven’t seen it, look up the YouTube on the DEA agent demonstrating the Glock to a class of students: “I am the only person in this room, that I know of, who is professional enough to hold this firearm. Boom.”

        Matt61


        • OUCH! I do give the man credit for the way he handled himself after the discharge. Now I am laughing because I was the only person in the room when I shot myself in the foot. I am grateful I was able to maintain myself and get some help.

          If that can happen to the one who is “professional enough to hold this firearm” I may not want to hold it.

          ~ken


  14. B.B., I know you are trying the lead BBs in the Remington. Look how this pistol feeds the bbs and look at the pictures and what you wrote back in 2011 about the GSG 92. From just looking at the photos you took from above the GSG 92, I can find no difference between that on and my Commander. I am glad the manufacturer made the effort and now four years on, it look like it was worth the effort.

    Lost my point. I believe lead bbs will feed better in this mechanism that the ones that require steel for a magnet.

    ~ken



    • Reb, there may be no comparison between your 2240 and my Commander, but I will mention a rather serious problem I had with the Commander. I am at a loss for the term and I don’t have time to find it so I’ll wing it. The head of the cartridge fits into the “fill in term” place where it gets pierced and seated. In my Commander and I assume numerous other co2 pistols, that part is threaded and removable. Unknown to me it was slowly turning as if to be removed. I wrote before about how I was slightly injured and my cat was almost hit by the co2 cartridge turned rocket. I wish I had taken a closer look when the previous cartridge had been difficult to remove. If won’t get OCD over it but if I have the slightest problem removing a cartridge I will go straight to check that piece for tightness.

      ~ken


      • After I get this Co2 cartridge out I will be performing an almost full teardown/ inspection to find the problem.
        I’m using Crosman cartridges, the only thing I can think of is that I fully exhausted all gas before trying to pour it out.
        Next time I could leave just a little in it and exhaust it with the cap freezing the cartridge therefore decreasing it’s diameter just before dumping it out just in case my tube is on the small side. Looks like I’ll be handled drilling it tonight because I don’t have a power drill but I have 1/” drive bits and a driver.
        “Patience Grasshopper!”
        I’ll be sure to post my findings on the current blog when I get that and my steel breech on it.
        Think I’ll put my point sight on this one!


        • My new rubber/plastic mallet did the trick!
          There’s a couple scratches on the cartridge where it looks like a piece or two of flashing may have gotten between the cartridge and tube, probably outta the threads when I dropped it through and got wedged in place as I tightened it from the orientation of them.
          Don’t wanna rush the breech job so I may put it off til tomorrow but Doc gave me a steroid injection for the hives today telling me the only drawback could be another sleepless night so we’re gonna see what happens between now and morning but about a half dozen firm raps with the proper tool was all it took.
          I’m so glad I spent that $9 even though it didn’t have the brass head that I was looking for if I can’t find one.
          The plastic is clear enough see how to make one outta anything you could melt & mould. With my fastener connection they’ll have an enormous amount of bolts that would screw in for a perfect fit and I’ve got some pretty small tins leftover from when I was testing .177 pellets & roundballs for the molds and a couple Turkey deepfry setups over in my brother’s garage that would make for a perfect winter’s evening project.


  15. Hi BB,

    From Portugal,
    In October the 6th (Part 5) you told me “BBs are too small with the pelletgage but it was a good idea and you forward it to the maker”. Now, I am pleased to know that a BBgage is coming soon. By the way, this test is remarkable, congratulations! Best regards


  16. Matt 61–I have used several case trimmers over the past 51 years. They all had an adjustable depth guide . I now use a foster hand cranked trimmer with an attachment for an electric drill . Once I set the case length by hand, I remove the crank and attach the drill for power. I can easily trim any # of cases, until I have to reset the trimmer for another caliber. I keep several different cases, each set to the minimum case length, in the box with my pilots. Ed


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