Announcement: Mathias Moe Varga is this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 Pyramyd Air gift card.
Mathias Moe Varga submitted the above photo of Miles Alexander Varga, who got in some shootin’ with his Crosman XT air rifle.
Today is Friday, and I’ve already written a couple reports this week that belong on a Friday blog, but a question came in from a shooter who will probably never read this report — yet, it was so intriguing that I wanted to answer it for you today.
This shooter owns a vintage Sheridan multi-pump pneumatic, and he’s been perplexed for years because .20-caliber Crosman premier pellets are not carried in stores. He remembers the old cylindrical pellets that used to come in the red and white tins and later in the yellow plastic boxes, but he doesn’t know if any .20-caliber pellets are still being made today.
This is the box that vintage Sheridan cylindrical pellets came in when Sheridan was still in business (before Benjamin bought them…and then Crosman bought Benjamin).
Vintage Sheridan cylindrical pellets. Notice the small driving band at the base, which engages the rifling.
Of course, they’re being made and in greater diversity than ever before. But you don’t typically find .20-caliber pellets at a sporting goods store, and they’re never found at a discount store. The best selection will be found on the internet.
His question made me think of this: Are today’s pellets better or worse than those of long ago? What I thought I would do today is find out which is better — the old pellets or the new.
I have been telling people for years that the .20-caliber Crosman Premier pellets in the cardboard box are noticeably better than the older cylindrical Sheridan pellets, but are they really? The only way to find out is to shoot some and see what happens.
I bought my Sheridan Blue Streak in late 1977, though I have also owned a vintage Silver Steak that was made between 1950 and about 1960. I no longer have that vintage gun, but the ’77 Blue Streak is still here, so that will be the test bed.
I used to buy Sheridan pellets in yellow plastic boxes of 500. They were the only .20-caliber pellets on the market when I bought them, but Dr. Beeman changed that in the 1980s when he began bringing in European spring guns in .20 caliber. Twenty caliber still occupies third place out of the four smallbore airgun calibers (.177, .20, .22 and .25) in terms of popularity, and its position is currently being threatened by a resurgence of interest in .25 caliber. Both .177 and .22 calibers are so far ahead of these other two calibers that there’s really no comparison when it comes to sales and usage.
Beeman’s pitch was that the .20 caliber was a great compromise between .177 and .22, but that pitch never quite caught on. Many shooters felt the truth was just the opposite — that .20 was both more expensive than the .177 and not as effective on game as the .22. You can argue this all day long and never change anyone’s opinion, but the truth is that there just aren’t as many great pellets in .20 caliber as there are in .177 and .22.
However, if there’s even just one good pellet, maybe that’s all we need. And the Crosman Premier pellet may just be the one.
I thought I’d test-fire several groups with my Blue Streak at 25 yards. Because it’s a multi-pump that takes some time for each shot, I’m going to shoot only 5-shot groups, but I’ll shoot several with each pellet. I’ll pump the rifle 6 strokes per shot because I’m shooting at 25 yards. That should give me decent accuracy, though I’m only using the open sights that came on the gun.
As I write this, I’ve not yet fired the rifle, so I have no data to consider. I do think the Crosman Premier will shoot more accurately than the old cylindrical pellet, but we’ll have to test it to see.
It’s been about two years since I shot the Blue Streak, so I oiled the pump head with Crosman Pellgunoil before starting. Then, I fired a single shot at the bull 25 yards away. It hit within about one-quarter inch of the aim point, so I finished that group and changed targets for the next.
The first three groups are all Crosman Premiers. I think the groups speak for themselves.
These three groups of Crosman Premiers were easy to put side-by-side because they’re so small. They were shot in order from left to right. The groups measure from left to right — 0.749 inches, 0.911 inches and 1.088 inches between centers.
Next, I tried the vintage Sheridan cylindrical pellet. Once more, I verified that the first shot was close to the aim point, then no more checking.
First group of vintage Sheridan cylindrical pellets looks like I wasn’t trying! It measures 2.63 inches between centers.
The first group of Sheridan pellets looks like I wasn’t trying, but I assure you I was. I really gave each shot everything I had.
This second group of Sheridan pellets was better than the first, but still not good. It measures 1.66 inches between centers.
Group two was better but not really good. I was relieved to discover that the reason was the pellet and not me. However, it gave me an idea. After group three with the vintage pellets, I would shoot a fourth group of Premiers, just to see if I could still shoot. I thought I might be getting tired at this point.
The third group of vintage Sheridan pellets measured 2.133 inches between centers. It was in-between the first group and the second.
The third and final group of vintage Sheridan pellets confirmed that they’re not that accurate. It was in between the first and second group, even though I was doing my best to aim precisely.
Was I tiring out? I had to know, so I shot a fourth group of Crosman Premiers that had established themselves as accurate pellets.
This final group of Crosman Premiers shows that I was still shooting about the same as at the start of the test. It measures 1.106 inches between centers, which fits in with the first three Premier groups.
As long as I was shooting the rifle, perhaps I should shoot a group with one other pellet that’s given good results in the past. The .20-caliber Beeman Kodiak is actually a medium-weight pellet — at just 13.27 grains. I shot only one group, but it seems to confirm that this pellet is in the same class as the Premier for accuracy.
Five Beeman Kodiak pellets made this 1.143-inch group. It’s close in size to the Premier group and should be considered for this airgun.
An interesting pattern
When I took the last target down from the pellet trap, the pattern in the fresh cardboard that backed all targets was quite interesting. Though I made no attempt to mount each of the eight targets in the exact same place, the cardboard tells the whole story about where all the pellets went.
Here’s the history of where each of the 40 shots went. Though no attempt was made to position every target in the same relative position, I find this is an interesting record of all the shooting.
Final thought for the day
This was written and tested on a Thursday — yesterday to everyone who is reading it on the day it is first published. I had been planning on going to the range to shoot some firearms yesterday, but the weather wasn’t cooperating, so I shot at home, instead. I’d planned to shoot my .32 cap-and-ball rifle, and shooting the Sheridan was very similar. You have to take time before each shot to get the gun ready so you’re extra careful to make every shot count. Also, going at this pace calms you and soothes you. I felt wonderful after this shooting session. Contrast that to shooting some uber-magnum springer that cocks like the bow of Hercules! Give me the slow lane every time.
142 thoughts on “Are vintage Sheridan pellets better than modern pellets?”
Interesting! I actually thought the old pellets might perform better. I assumed this because of their long shape, theoretically giving a better ballistic coefficient. I should have realized that if the old shape worked better, pellets would be made in it, rather than in the more modern diabolo shape.
For the average guy shooting squirrels and rabbits, at maybe 30 yards (you’re shooting at 50) even the old pellets are pretty decent.
I haven’t read all the replies, so my question may have already been answered below, BUT has anyone tried the modern .20 cal Benjamin “conoidal” pellets? I get good results with them
The older pellets weight was a couple of grams more and therefore traveled further with more energy. I used to use ten pumps to kill small game as a child and my groupings were tighter at longer distances( adjust for drop) than the modern pellets. I regularly discouraged crows, ring-necked doves, squirrels and other vermin with the new pellets at 90-125′. The older pellets worked much better.
I shot the old style pellets for 35 years and the new designs just need more weight.
Both of my Blue streaks made 20 yrs apart shotgunned the “bullets”. My 1400 of the same era as the first streak shot much better with the only pellet available for it….the Crosman wadcutters.
I still have the older one. It likes the Exacts and FTS. Both load hard, with the copper coated FTS being the hardest to load. Might need a bit of polishing at the breech end.
Bought a brand new Sheridan .20 back in ’74 along with a yellow box of pellets. At 15-20 yds it threw them all over the place. I could see them flying left and right, that’s how bad they were. I put the rifle away for about 6 months until I found the Sheridan pellets in the red box (Made in West Germany). With those I could get about 1″ at 20 yds. Then on to Beeman Silver Jets I believe mailed ordered. They were better but it wasn’t until I found JSB’s that it turned into a tack driver.
Try JSB’s and see what you get.
Same here. My two Blue Streaks are a open sight 1959 hold down safety , and a 1985 rocker with a Williams peep sight. The older one won’t do better than 2″ at ten meters with the old cans. It will shoot dime sized groups with the JSB pellets though. The 1985 model will shoot the premiers the best, and also the lighter wt diablo pellets that used to come in the red plastic boxes (that looked like the yellow box, but red), and were made in West Germany for Sheridan. I found that those were the similar, if not the same as the( H&N) Beeman Lasers. My Sheridan HB pistol also like those. The newer Benji cylindricals also do well in all my Sheridans. I think that the old Sheridan bullets got their reputation because they were heavier and went faster than the .22 pellets we had available back when we were kids. Better game pellet than the Crosman flying ash cans. Remember the ads in magazines like “Boy’s Life” ? They had one that showed the penetration of the Sheridan pellets compared to others in pine, and even mentioned that Sheridan guns and pellets were used to stun hogs in some slaughter yard. Convinced me back then.
The advertised “1 inch of white pine” never matreialized for me. Niether did the accuracy claims. Only found the yellow pellets back then.
I remember that inch of pine penetration ad. It convinced me, too, but the price of a Sheridan was out of reach when I was young.
Both you and twotalon seem to agree that the JSB pellets are great in this rifle. Why not? They’re good in practically everything else.
Good to know for a guy who doesn’t shoot that many .20-caliber pellets.
BB: Maybe some of those folks who criticize Dr. Beeman for pushing the .20 springers will realize that if it weren’t for the ones he imported from Germany , they wouldn’t have had the better pellets for their Talons and Streaks. It might suprise some of them to know he used to sell the Blue Streaks too, despite his marketing hype that multi-pumps were inferior compared to the springers he sold. I have Beeman catalogs that list the Benji pumpers and Blue Streaks as stock items that could be bought form Beeman. I think that my first one may have come from there ,but it was a gift , so I’m not sure …
I saw those Beeman remarks about the Sheridans. Funny thing was, at the time I owned both an FWB 124 and a Blue Streak.
Beeman did a lot for our hobby and you are exactly correct that it was he who woke up the pellet makers of the world to the need for better .20-caliber pellets.
But his advertising patter that pumping a multi-pump takes more energy and tires out the shooter is wrong. Both Robert Beeman and Robert Law used to add up the cumulative force needed to pump a Sheridan and compare it to the force it took to cock a breakbarrel. But it isn’t like that. The force is spread out over the number of pumps and isn’t debiliating.
Mr. Beeman also wrote about the soft metal of the barrel and about the difficulty of mounting a scope because it covered the breech. Now I know that great minds think alike, and mine isn’t among them. Reading your post today reminded me of writing in ’77 or ’78 to Mr. Beeman and suggesting mounting a pistol scope on the Sheridan (rather easy since the scope mounts would fit anywhere along the length of the barrel). He replied that my proposed solution was a good one (and rightfully stated it did nothing about the soft barrel). Later that year I read an article by a friend of Mr. Beeman in a gun magazine. The author included mention of and a picture of a Sheridan with a pistol scope mounted. Lately, I have noticed that Airgun Warehouse features Benjamin pumps with a “long eye relief” scope.
This looks like a lot of words for a personal reverie. I enjoyed your post.
TT: Have to admit the Crosman wads were killers on pests we shot as kids. A rat hit amidships with a Crosman ash can fired from my brothers Benji 342 .22 pump was doomed. I was a just kid that had only a .22 Crosman Medalist pistol back when I read those ads . Got my first Blue Streak in 1985, the older one came from a flea market a couple years ago, and I was suprised to see it shoot so poorly with the older pellets. No wonder it sat in a closet for thirty years before I bought it.
My second 1400 was a real killing machine. It knocked the snot out of rats and pidgeons.
The only other pellet I got to try in it was the S&W wadcutters that I got with the 78G. They really beat the Crosmans.
TT: A couple years ago traded for a junker 1400 that was not working . Never had one as a kid. Guts were like my old Medalist ,blow off valve, bigger cap I think. Had a hell of a time getting it to hold past three-four pumps. Ron Sauls fixed me up with a new trigger ,which kindly GAVE! me . Great guy to do business with,BTW. Anyways, I even drilled and tapped it for a Mossberg receiver sight I had laying around ,and a new ramp and bead front. It has a lot of smack, and is easier to pump, but the barrel is just not as accurate as my Streaks 2″ at 25 yards is the best it will do. My Streaks will shoot into an inch. I’ve been told that the Sears made ones with the grooved breech, were the best barrels. I guess like the Chinese QB barrels it could be a crap shoot as to quality.
My first 1400 had the sliding breech, and was a shotgun. About useless. The second was a bolt action and shot really good. Same kind of pellets.
Liked the pumping effort on the 1400s . Smaller compression tube required less work than Sheridan and Benji.
TT: Yup, mine also has the bolt, the Medalist has the sliding breech deal. I’m looking for a made for Sears one ,or a barrel assembly from a junker for mine. I did make a better transfer port for my 1400 and milled a flat spot for it to sit on the underside of my barrel. It did help with leaks in that area and I got 50 more fps velocity with the same number of pumps. I also re-crowned my barrel in my lathe and made a new, slightly larger pump lever pivot pin for it. Crosman should bring this one back with a two piece breech , maybe slightly larger all around , adjustable pump, a magazine, and rifled specifically for .22, or better bigger RB. A ammo source that you could even cast from a mould if you wanted , or as BB says if the comet hits us .
Another 1400 just like the second one would make me happy. No changes required, and NOT reproduced in China.
Better yet, let the Germans make it.
Shark in Argentina came close!
TT&BB : On the yellow today I see that a .32 RB pumper that someone built ,based on a Sheridan is shown. BB , maybe you have seen it? There seems to be interest in one. The owner claims up to 800fps with Hornady RB. BTW, I’m not the rob in ny or any of the other Roberts that posts on there . I don’t belong to any of the forums. Tried the GTA once for awhile ,that was enough for me.
I looked for that gun but didn’t find it.
But it would be a nice gun if it performs as you say.
Thanks. I though it was on the classified site.
Interesting gun but I doubt the velocity claim.
RE: Crosman’s new M4-177 multi-pump air rifle: Part 3
November 29, 2011
Any idea why Daisy and Crosman BBs would have a different POI?
I knew that BBs would have different BC and drop different than pellets. But I thought that BBs wouldn’t spin much and hence could establish left/right centerline of POA. Obviously if two different types of BBs have a different POI then that won’t work.
I’ve measured both Daisy and Crosman BBs and the Crosman BBs are always smaller. They are also less consistent than the Daisys. So they rattle down the bore, bouncing from one wall to the other until they leave the gun in some random direction.
But they are much better than the BBs from the past. Both Daisys and Crosmans were even smaller and out of round most of the time. I could show pictures!
Fit the bore different, bounce around the bore different, exit at different angles.
Thank BB & TwoTalon
Ballistics is bewildering. We can’t even get two different types of BBs to have the same POI.
Reminds me of this guy on “impossible shots” who uses a plain “stick” bow to do all kinds of things. Saw him banking an arrow off of sheets of plywood(I think) and hitting the target. I don’t remember if the most he did was 3 or 4 banks from side to side and still hitting the target.
From the cardboard backer, it’s obvious that the Blue Streak is capable of roughly 1″ accuracy at 25 yards with a pellet it likes using an open sight? Or is your Streak equipped with a peep? Anyway, this is what one should expect from the typical blue streak, I believe. A great ‘close in” rifle for pest control.
I have owned a number of Blue and Silver Streaks over the years, including one that was steroided. They all shoot about one inch at 25 yards with good pellets.
“You have to take time before each shot to get the gun ready so you’re extra careful to make every shot count. Also, going at this pace calms you and soothes you. I felt wonderful after this shooting session. Contrast that to shooting some uber-magnum springer that cocks like the bow of Hercules! Give me the slow lane every time.”
Great minds think alike! o;) Following is from a 4/25/’11 post to a group of airgunning Geezers:
“There’s just something ‘right’ about an old domestic pumper that makes it belong in every outdoorsman’s home or shop. Perfect medicine for defending Martin houses, bird feeders and property from usurpers wearing fur or feathers. Good snake medicine in a boat and an endless source of amusement in camp. Not much beats sitting in a shaded lawnchair with a barley soda near to hand and lazily putting in 3-4 pumps and picking dragonflies off of the catttails on a lazy Summer day. Even the pumping becomes almost hypnotic at times like that and cares fall away like the leaves of Autumn. Think of them as medicine and balm for the soul in such idyllic circumstances.”
Tom: Your so right, we just bought two more old Benji’s the other day. One was picked out and paid for by my 11 year old son. A .22 tootsie roll fore end 132 pistol. He thinks that they are cool, and believe me , he has his pick of airgun stuff to choose from. So maybe they DO! listen to us “geezers”! BTW, my kids refer to me as a geezer sometimes ,which I was told was a guy” who is old but not dead yet”…
I too, own two Sheridan Blue Streaks. They are both rocker safety versions, which I believe to be the pinnacle of the design. Mine both like the Czech pellets, and summarily reject the good old American Premiers. Go figure.
I like the .20 cal pellet. True, they cost as much as .22 pellets in most cases, and they are much harder to find…if not for the internet. If I could not secure pellets online (from PA, I can’t remember ever ordering pellets from anyone else) I shudder to think how far I would have to drive to buy .20 cal pellets retail. As long as I can find one good accurate pellet for each rifle, well… that is all I need, and to hell with huge pellet selections. I’m not into math, but IIRC the ballistic coefficients for .20 cal pellets are favorable. I also like the size. Sometimes .177s feel ridiculously small to handle, especially when the mercury is low.
BB, I noticed that while your 3 premier groups were all good, they did increase by about 33% over the course of testing. I do enjoy my Sheridans, and don’t anticipate selling either, but they are a beast to pump up. Forget 8 pumps, just 5 or 6 is an effort. The effect (not affect, AlanL) may be negligible, but real nonetheless. When I am shooting by myself, pumping gets old fast. When shooting with a friend, it is much less tedious. If the shooting partner is also shooting an MPP, even better. It definitely makes you aim a little more carefully than you might otherwise, due to the labor involved.
I have to wonder if the age of the pellets plays any role. Perhaps oxidation on the vintage pellets, hampered their performance? I also happen to think that sorting pellets might be constructive for such a test. This is the height of hypocrisy, since I have never sorted pellets in my life, except to toss ones with bent skirts.
Do you have any other .20 cal air rifles? I have one other .20 cal rifle. An older HW97K. Don’t tell Volvo, I’ll never hear the end of it.
No, my only .20 cal. is the Blue Streak. I have owned other Streaks and once I owned a .20 Beeman Crow Magnum. But for now, the Blue Streak is it.
Next thing you know you’ll be driving an S60R……
I would rather push my 325i than drive one of those filing cabinets with wheels mounted to it. In my youth I was a valet parking attendant at a country club. I drove just about every car you could think of in all sorts of condition or disrepair. BMW’s were always the clear winner and my favorite to this day. I do respect your opinion, no matter how mislead it might be.
As far as the HW97 goes, I usually use it to poke at the embers in the fire.
…I usually use it to poke at the embers in the fire…
LOL! I don’t know anything about an HW97 but for some reason this struck my funny bone. The picture I drew in my mind…”Honey the fire is starting to die”, “Don’t worry, dear, I’ll get the poker”, he said as he went inside to get the HW97.
Okay, here is my considered opinion on BMW’s. The 3 series screams “want a be”. Don’t think so. The 7 series says you are way over paid if you are a sales guy. They only work for rap stars and surgeons. The 5 series is the standard issue for “fellas that are good”, not that their is anything wrong with that – just not me.
Plus it snows bit here:
Just because I respect your opinion doesn’t mean I won’t completely disregard it. The BMW 3 series has been on Car and Driver’s 10 best list for over two decades now. This is in spite of a new exterior that puts it into the ugly duckling category according to many BMW enthusiasts. My dwindling fortune dictates that I hold on to my old 1992 325i, at 20 years old it gets me there in style. I will admit, it does get old saying over and over again, “No, it is not for sale.” It is a small price to pay.
My airgunning roots are shallow.
When I was a boy my sidekick was a remington 550. After chores were done I was off to the woods and ravines with the 550. Everything that moved got shot. I would return proudly with my bounty. My grandmother could cook any game but her rabbit fricasse still makes my mouth water when I think about it.
Never saw a copy of boys life. My grandfather was a great outdoorsman and he subcribed to Outdoor Life, Sports Afield and Field & Stream for most of his life. I read those back issues voraciously. It was in one or more of those magazines that I saw the Sheridan pumpers. Never paid much attention to them. Guess I missed out. Years later I learned that the Outdoor Life magazine began right here in Denver Colorado around 1900.
My first pellet gun was a Crosman Mark II. Purchased brand new in the early 1980’s for a pest problem I had in the city. Didn’t know anything about pellet guns but liked the heft of the gun and idea of CO2 since it didn’t require pumping. I read the manual and always removed the CO2 cartridge after firing one or two shots. Very wasteful and expensive. Primarily because I didn’t realize that a CO2 cartridge could be left in the gun I never became attached to that pellet gun. Gave it to some friends kids about 15 years ago. Gun still works and they have many fond memories of that gun.
I bought a Benjamin 342 for my city pest control. It did the job well but I never bonded with that gun either. Loaned it to a son of a good friend long ago and don’t think I’ll ever see it again which is fine.
Years ago I came to this site and asked for advice on a pellet gun that would work for long range pest elimination. Based on lots of good advice I bought a Diana 54 in .22 cal. That gun introduced me to the potential accuracy of pellet guns. After purchasing 3 or 4 more airguns after the Diana 54 I was hooked.
Even though my airgun experience has been a short ride it’s sure been fun.
“…..right here in Denver, Colorado……..”
Really? I live in Westminster. Are you anywhere nearby?
Westminster!!??? You’ve got to be kidding! I’m in wheat ridge. I host the airgun shoots in the denver metro area:
I have about 20 airgunners on my email list. You won’t believe the airgun collections of some of the airgunners in the denver metro area. Quality guys. Many are also into powder burners. I also host fishing and shooting get togethers at my place outside of Leadville. Do you fish for trout?
Please contact me klent4 “AT” comcast.net
Sorry, left out a letter in my address, klentz4 “AT” comcast.net
I used to live in Wheat Ridge back in the 80’s. I’m at work again today and tomorrow, but one of these weekends should work out so we can meet and do a little shooting! I’ll send you an email later.
Rabbit fricasee eh? I bet you could not find that for any price now. It looks like I won’t get my Cabelas wild game sausages for the holidays. They won’t arrive before I leave town, but hopefully they will be available afterwards.
Since we’re talking about pellets, and even about old design pellets, I’ll raise a question that popped into my head while showering yesterday:
Just how much work and testing do manufacturers put into the designs of pellets? For example, are they wind-tunnel tested, or shot extensively under controlled conditions with high speed photography to observe flight behavior? Do the companies experiment with different balance points (CG)? Or for common pellets such as wadcutters, domes and the like, do they just draw up something that fits the bore, makes the weight, and has center of pressure aft of center of mass and quit there?
Here is what I think. I think it is driven more by personalities than by companies. At one time Crosman had a great engineer who was the guy who developed the Premier pellets. He did a lot of the research you mentioned. But he retired and the Premier line has slowly gone south ever since. Now they put the name on anything, just for the marketing juice it carries. That is the perfect way to kill a brand.
At H&N years ago they were fanatical about pellet quality. But in recent years they have strayed from their foundation and lost sight of what makes a good pellet.
JSB is so good because of Joseph Schultz. When he goes away I wouldn’t bet on what happens to the company.
Even the Chinese made some astounding pellets year ago. They may still make them for all I know, but we don’t import them anymore.
The bottom line with pellets is attention to detail. If the design is good, then sticking to it is more important than creating the next good pellet.
I have 4 good 10m guns. Modern H&N pellets do not appear to work well in any one of them. I wondered about this; back around 1990 or so when Beeman fired in my C20, they found H&N Finale Match were by far the best. Neal Johnson said much the same about the C-62.
If a brand is to mean something a few years down the line after it is established, customers have to be able to trust it, and that means continuing attention to details and consistency. If you slap “Premier” on any chunk of lead, pretty quick people won’t choose it.
I once was given some experimental Premier wadcutters your engineer friend made up. They were really marvelous pellets; fully the equal of the German top-line pellets. But they’re gone. The current Premier wadcutters do not seem to be the same quality.
Is it that H&N Finale Match have actually gotten worse, or that other brands of pellets have improved?
I’d assume that there is a lot of “reverse engineering” (ie copying) in pellet design. It doesn’t seem that any of the companies are going to pay for the computer analysis of aerodynamics. So if the other companies pellet’s shoot better than yours you change the dimensions of your pellet to more closely match theirs.
I don’t know. The gun hasn’t been changed in any obvious way. And I still test the same way: I hold the gas tank in the rubber-lined jaws of a heavily weighted portable WorkMate, shooting only for group at a reversed target’s blank side. R-10s work well; H&N less so. No, the H&N are *not* junk, but they aren’t quite as good. Since I cannot buy R-10s sorted for head size any longer, I assume that the ones we do get are 4.50mm, and I used H&N of the same size. I don’t have the $$$ to buy a set of tins of different head sizes from H&N, given that the one(s) that show up the worst probably won’t get shot very much.
I agree that if I could run tests on all sizes of Finale Match, I might find a size that works better than the standard R-10s. I ran a tin of Vogels bought from Pilkington when I got my 300S; they were nice, but I didn’t do the full-up group test. Being lazy.
For what it’s worth I would take the time to do the testing. I think you wil be glad you did.
Fine. At $13+ per tin, and I need tins at 4.49, 4.5, 4.51 and 4.52 millimeters diameter, will you help finance the project?
If H&N (Pyramyd) would sell a sampler tin that was intelligently made up for the match shooter, meaning it had the range of sizes of wadcutters rather than a wadcutter, a dome, a hollow point, etc., why then I could afford the test. As it is, I’ll have to spend 3*$13 (fourth tin free) + another $8 or so for shipping. Then once I’ve found the best size (assuming it *is* an H&N Finale Match) then I’ll have to put 3 tins of F-M on the shelf along with my R-10s (and, oh yes, any of either brand in “rifle” weight) for use only when it doesn’t much matter what I shoot.
Not feasible for a pistol shooter. As Scot PIlkington has pointed out many times, the differential spreads among various high quality pistol pellets will not affect scores significantly since the spread is much smaller than the width of a scoring ring. For a rifle shooter, it makes sense to test pellets because the spread is larger than the width of the 10-dot and maybe even the 9-ring.
So if I do go to the trouble of testing H&N F-M pellets across a range of head sizes in my LP-10, what exactly have I gained, and why will I be glad I did?
Sure I’ll help.
First sorry about the confusion my comment was meant to test more vogel pellets not H&Ns. Your post started out saying “I have 4 good 10m guns. Modern H&N pellets do not appear to work well in any one of them.” If my memory serves me right you have a FWB P700 aluminum stock, FWB 300S, LP10, and an IZH 46M. I can send you some smaller quantity (not full tins, I’m just not that nice) of different pellets (including H&Ns of different head sizes) to test out. Let me know the guns you want to test and how many in each sample you need to get results.
As far as what you may gain; well you may find proof that the H&Ns are not what they once were. You may be glad that vogel pellets put confidence in your shooting gear.
Well, let’s think about this for a moment or two. First, your estimate of my inventory is 50/50. I don’t have a FWB 700 of any kind, more’s the pity; I do have an old FWB C-62, which is, I think the last Feinwerkbau CO2 rifle they developed. While I do have an IZH 46M, that’s not one of my “good” guns (altho’ it’s plenty better than I am!); I have an FWB C-20, one of the last two (with the C-25) precision CO2 pistols to come from FWB.
I’ve shot some Vogels in 3 of the four guns (a tin came with the 300S); the C-20 really needs to go back to PilkGuns for a resealing job, and then it needs to get sold to let me get some other stuff I need, so it’s out of any test program). Were I to run some comparative tests they would be mainly in the 300S and C-62. I did not run precision tests on the Vogels, but have the general impression that they are every bit as good as the R-10s, but probably no better.
Even the H&N Finale Match group well enough to put 8 or 9 out of 10 in the X-ring on a standard 10 meter air pistol target, and maybe all 10 out of 10; that’s good enough for me! Any flaws don’t really show up until you shoot an air rifle at an AR-1 target and look for grouping. That’s where it gets really difficult.
In order to test a pellet, I need to fire at least two 10 shot groups (unless the first 5 shots are ‘perfect’) from each pellet in each of two guns. So about 20 pellets of each brand and size. Might include a few more in case old clumsyFingers drops one or two on the cement floor…
Here is a link to a discussion Herb and I had about testing pellets.
If you look my email is in the comments, send me an email so we can do this off the blog.
Real men sing badly in the shower….. Just kidding, Pete!
This is true. I sing badly anywhere.
Okay…let the firearms talk begin 😉
As I mentioned a while ago there was going to be a PB under the tree this year.
Last night I picked up a Savage 93 WMR w/scope…my first powder burner in 25 years…woohoo!!
The pellet guns will still be our main shooters…much cheaper to shoot and at anything less than our normal 30m there really isn’t a reason to spend the extra cash for ammo…especially for paper punching.
But at least now, when we do want hear a BANG instead of a muffled twang…we’ll be set.
And sometimes its just gotta go BANG!!
How about that! A Canadian is the first to lead us astray. Whoda thunk?
Give us a report on how that Savage shoots.
Yes, yes. Reports on Savage rifles are always welcome. I know the feeling of enjoying firearms, but once having gotten into airguns you’ll never go back. My airguns are the workhorses of my shooting. I was trying to figure out the other day what kind of people could possibly shoot firearms as much the average guy can with an airgun. Weighing against the firearms shooter is mostly the price of ammo which is greater by a factor of 50 at least. You can offset this with handloading, but after a certain point you will be paying with time. Then there is the time and expense of traveling to the range, burning out your barrel with certain calibers by shooting them too much at a session, cleaning and maintaining the firearms. I concluded that the only firearms people who can keep up with the sheer output of airgunners are either multi-millionaires or Delta Force types who have unlimited access to ammo. And even then, I don’t believe that firearms offer the same qualitative training challenge of a good springer.
Shooting slow! That’s the way I like to shoot too. That’s one reason I have never warmed up to the PCPs. Two of my PCPs are multi shot and I just shoot to the mag is empty. One required me to load a pellet but that still is faster than I like to shoot. My Mac1 USFT Hunter adds the step of cocking the hammer and swiveling the breech open and closed. I like that.
I am like you in that shooting slow calms me down. I think the main reason I shoot is for stress relief. For that a break barrel is my stress reliever of choice. The break barrel puts me in a slow rhythmic cycle which I just love.
I wish I could love the pumpers but I never have warmed up to them. I see the reasons people like them but they just have never interested me enough to keep one.
This would be one reason to own the very accurate Daisy 953. It’s a single pump pneumatic. It will slow you down to an easy cadence. Since your scenario doesn’t sound like a hunting one but a target one, the one pump would equate to breaking the barrel on a springer. With the single shot tray installed, loading in one pellet would be the same as loading a pellet in the springer barrel. Cocking the bolt (before loading the pellet, of course) would be the motion replacing closing the springer barrel AND taking the shot with the 953 would be so much more pleasant than the springer recoil plus hold sensitivity is gone, gone, gone.
Shooting calms me down too, but not by going too slow. Not by going to fast either. I just maintain my routine and tempo no matter, what and then past and present slips away and all boundaries to everything else. Ooooom.
I understand your feeling about the pumping. My imagination is standing in the way. I keep thinking of pumping as something you do for a bicycle tire, not a gun.
After pumping up the 48 cu inch spare tank for my new Disco, I will never again think about pumping as belonging only to bicycle tires. From 1900psi (what was in there when I got it) to 3000psi took somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000 strokes! (actually, I lost count somewhere around 800, but kept going for long after that.) I was sore for 3 days in places I didn’t know I used! A new part of my exercise program….
I thought Discos were set up for 2,000 psi.
They are, Edith. This was my spare tank. A 48 cubic inch high pressure bottle with a regulator set up for refilling the Disco. From jdsairman.
….. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that. I know you’re watching out for our safety! 🙂
I was about to give up on my old blue streak trying every pellet i could get at the local sports stores, including some beemans. Was hesitant to spend the $ to order the premiers, in the box from Pyramid, but sure glad I did. Made the old gun fun to shoot again. Keep up with the good stuff B.B.
Anyone here going to the SHOT Show next month?
Mac and I will be there.
Wonderful news. Your reports on the SHOT Show are a highlight of the year for me. It’s amazing to read all the rumors and speculations this time of year about the new introductions that are expected at the SHOT Show.
Hey what’s that … thing … in the hollow base of that one pellet in the photo? Is that a fillet of lead? If so, that’s part of the problem right there, made “intentionally” out of balance?
I’m using 10 pumps in my daisy 880 but there’s hardly the CLACK! CLACK of my old Crosman 760, and it’s pretty accurate. I think it actually deserves a better scope than the Crosman Superscope Targetfinder, it could benefit from a firearms-grade 4X scope and I could probably even make a LER pistol scope work on it.
It may sound silly coming from me,but lately I have been shooting the heck out of a Daisy 822.All I can say is this:it is so wrong,it feels right.Let me describe it…….It has a real wood stock,but it feels as dense as balsa or bass wood.The barrel isn’t the barrel,it is a sheetmetal sleeve that indexes the barrel(poorly).The pump lever is plastic,(the bad kind that flexes as if incapable of its task).The pumping stroke is so light,the gun feels broke! As the pump stroke ends,the handle loop has to fit in between the fat wood forearm slabs.The trigger is a study in crappyness! The first stage is long but reasonable…..it feels like its just there to aggravate me.The second stage is hard to pull smoothly,forcing me to use my thumb vertically to brace the gun against the pull.The gun likes 10-15 pumps……which it has NO problem fully discharging! All this going against it,but it will shoot .22 JSB Jumbos into about an inch at 25yds.When I shoot it,even with everything WRONG about it,I enjoy the heck out of it.It sits right next to the back door begging to be shot again.MSPs are great.
I think that is the one my best friend growing up had — like an 880 with the diamond inlays on the forearm but in .22? I can’t remember if the stock was wood or (as I seem to remember) plastic — it wasn’t exhibition grade either way. Those were good shooters with pellets, esp. with the included 4×15 scope (which was pretty good in those days); we used to shoot pencils in half, and I remember trying to light matches, but I don’t remember any getting lighted (back when strike anywhere matches were common, which dates me too :)). If I remember correctly, Volvo had some good things to say about the 22SG which is probably related somehow to the 822 also, likely closely.
BG: I bought one of those Daisy SGs and it is a good one, but is only a 9-10 ft/lb gun at most. To weak for our large grey squirrels at any distance beyond ten yards or so. Would be perfect for head shots on cotton tail rabbits though. Mine had a loose barrel that rattled inside the barrel shroud. Fixed it with a simple, short(about an inch), piece of tubing slipped over the end of the barrel ,then pushed the front sight assembly back on. This made the groups consistent, about an inch with RWS superdomes at 20-25 yards. Very easy to pump and the trigger breaks in after awhile ,but the pull is still long and mushy. Great gun for kids that are to small to pump the Benji or Sheridan. My 8 year old uses it a lot. Better choice for kids than a lot of the cheap springers that are offered for them,IMO.
Sounds pretty good — and you sound a little like me on the repairs; I actually kind of enjoy fixing stuff on things I buy as long as the price is fair, and always get a kick reading the reviews where somebody sends something back 3 times when they could have fixed it in 5 minutes :). I remember that they (822’s) shot very well, and I couldn’t keep up with my Red Rider :). I have thought several times that Daisy out to take that design concept farther and make something even sturdier and more powerful to compete against the Benji’s for an adult line– I think it would sell pretty well and would be great for hunting squirrels and rabbits at modest ranges. If one or two strokes was ~500fps-“ish”, even better, as it would be fun for targets and all the times where you don’t want excess penetration (small vermin in barns, etc.).
Hello B.B. and fellow Enthusiasts. We have had a week of extraordinary blogs. I think these 5 will go into your “Best Of” book, B.B. I also wanted to say haw much I enjoy reading you guys’ experiences with your various airguns of long ago. Brings back fond memories of my youth in the early 60’s. Before I turned into one of the Woodstock Generation, and shunned all types of guns until I was forced to buy a Ruko (Norico), model 61 in .22 cal for my starling problem. I still have that gun, purchased in 1991-2. Shoots 455-7 fps all day. With Crosman HP pellets. In fact, seeing as how it is snowing, I think I take a shot or two at my Bullet Box right now.
Just an interesting sidebar. I see in an old copy of Mechanics Illustrated, an add for the Norica Model 61 as an airgun kit. Comes in a package with the everything broken down as far as it will go.Just think of the possibilities of such a kit under the tree when you were 12 -? yrs. old. I wonder if you would need a spring compressor?
Pyramyd Air has an employee named Laura Nelson. She does a lot of graphics and is extremely clever. She’s put together a bunch of cartoon Christmas cards using Pyramyd Air employee’s faces:
More to come this weekend. Enjoy!
Here’s another one that Laura did with different Pyramyd air employees…you’ll see Josh Ungier in it:
And here’s another one. Look closely at the drummer:
And one more:
And another one:
Very amusing. Aren’t you in there, Edith?
I’m one of the dancing elves and also the mom in one of the Christmas Story animations.
The old Sheridan Rocker Safety guns are one of my favorites. I still have a Red and White can of the old pellets. My original (1968) Blue Streak with a factory installed Williams receiver sight has shot more critters than I can count. Most were with the old pellets. While not that accurate, they did the job as close range, around 15 yards or less more often than not. I found that they were most accurate with 5 pumps so that what I used. Today I use JB’s. I also have a later Streak that I have mounted a Bushnell Scout scope on just ahead of the rear sight. It’s deadly.
@B.B., although not of the original Sheridan configuration, I have see the Benjamin brand .20 caliber pellets at Gander Mountain and Academy. I realize not everyone has either store close by but I think it worth a mention.
That is good information. Thank you!
Be forewarned,Gander Mtn. is extremely “proud” of them .20 Benjamins……to the tune of 20 Washingtons plus tax.I picked up a near mint 347 & a C9……just had to shoot them before the sun went down.I paid so much,the tin still sits unopened! I guess in my mind if I don’t shoot them,they won’t cost that much per shot?! I love,and miss Academy though.Great brick & mortar buisness.If you need a fishing reel & have $10……they have several.If you have $100 to spend,they have several,and if You want to drop $500…….they have a few of them too! Stuff is priced to move,rather than collect dust waiting on a sucker.I like them as much as I like Pyramyd,that’s saying something.
I think only one of those pellets is 20 bucks. Might as well open that tin up just don’t shoot the big one!
Caveman…….what you said made me think of Sam Eliot’s line in Roadhouse,when he’s on the phone w/ Swaze…..the sign over the urinal “Don’t eat the big white mint!!”
I’m actually really set for .20 pellets now.Derrick from here& AnotherAirgunBlog sent me about 20lbs
of them when I picked up a used Talon in .20 on the YF.It was a steal for $350 shipped & equipped. Derrick is AWESOME.
I also wanted to mention that those original Sheridan pellets were devastating at close range when inserted into the breech backwards. Although only used a couple of times, I considered this my euthanizing pellet (even now, it saddens me to mention it).
B.B., I misprinted my email in the previous post; my apologies.
I purchased my Blue Streak in 1975. Mounted a Weaver 4X scope on it. The scope sits way back in the rings, in fact the front of the scope is flush with the front of the front ring. Looks weird but it has always worked fine. I have never had accuracy problems with the old pellets, this rifle nails it with pellets from the yellow package. It also likes the Benjamin pellets. I haven’t tried any others, probably will now after reading todays blog. Toby
Hi, I was wondering if you could help me…it´s off topic, but i would really appreciate your help. A friend of mine wants to buy a used , but in great condition, Walther rifle scope, are they better than Leapers or Centerpoint?, do you know what company makes them?, thanks for you help.
Walther scopes are not on par with Leapers or CenterPoint. The optics may be comparable, but the reliability isn’t. A lot depends on which gun it’s going to be mounted on.
That’s amazing. CenterPoint scopes are sold at Wal-Mart and Big-5. I always associated Walther stuff with high quality and good results (after a little Yankee modification at least).
The Walther name, when associated with firearms made in Ulm, Germany, means a great deal. But not when slapped on an inexpensive scope from China.
Most scopes are made in China — even the expensive ones. The Chinese have been making the world’s precision optics ever since the 1970s, when the Germans and Swiss set them up to produce optics. So the fact that a scope is made there is not a mark against it.
But Walther sourced a scope that has reliability problems — at least with recoiling spring guns. Leapers, who also makes Centerpoint, on the other hand, has always tried to make the most rugged scopes they can for the price. Not that they never break, because they sometimes do. But the return rate on their scopes is low in comparison to other brands.
BB, I wonder if your Sheridan may be more accurate with 5 pumps as my old one was?
Anything is possible, but the comments seem to indicate that most Sheridans are pretty much the same.
I have a 953 question. Yesterday I made a comment about the 953 regarding shooting sequence compared to a springer. It got me thinking about my 953 so I decided to get it out and shoot it since it’s been a while. It seemed to be shooting slower than I remember so I put it on the chrony.
The 953 is advertised on PA as 500fps.
In 2009 I save a chrony tape that showed the 953 shooting JSB Exact 8.4gr as this:
Shooting the JSBs the chrony tape today shows this:
I seem to have lost some velocity.
I checked the chrony against my Talon SS and it shows it shooting a tad higher than it did two years ago so I’m inclined to believe that the chrony is working properly.
I looked at the piston with the pump handle extended and it looks moist so I think it is lubed ok.
Any comments? Do I have a problem? Is there some deterioration going on that I can correct?
When was the last time you oiled the pump piston head in your 953? It does make a difference.
Also, if that isn’t the problem, I have a procedure that is guaranteed to boost velocity. Work the pump 3/4 of the way several times without completing the pump stroke. Pump until you feel the pressure build, then hold it for a second before letting off. Do this after you oil the piston head.
This gets the pump head flexible again and will increase your velocity by about 50+ f.p.s.
It looks like you’re on the right track here but I’m not sure where too much oil happens. I put in three drops of Crosman Silicone Oil and did what you said and the fps went up a few points. I put in three more drops and gained about 25fps max by building up pressure. When I did the pumping you described to loosen up the pump head I could feel it building up pressure then when I continued to the full pump (I could hear the hiss a full pump) I gained 20-25 fps. If I just did a full pump without building pressure first, I just gained about 10fps.
Accuracy does not seem to be affected by this. The gun is shooting very accurately and I guess I should be satisfied with that but the drop in fps does have me worried.
I don’t know if I should keep oiling anymore. Is there a limit?
It is impossible to over-oil a gun this way. But silicone oil is seciond-best after Crosman Pellgunoil. Daisy specifies 20-weight motor oil because they no longer market an oil of their own. Pellgunoil is 20-weight with some seal conditioners.
OK, I’m convinced lubrication is the key factor here. I applied some Pellgunoil and on multiple pumps brought the fps up to 489. That’s pretty good considering. Normal shooting technique is now yielding ranges 30fps higher than before. It’s still not as high as in 2009 without multiple pumps but I’ll let the rifle marinate for a while and check later.
One thing for sure, this rifle loves JSB Exact 8.4gr pellets. I don’t know if it’s me two years later, or it oiled up, but it’s more accurate now than it was few months ago and it was shooting 1/4″ groups then.
As I’ve posted before, Pellgunoil is 30W engine oil, LE Monolec GFS 30W, according to the Crosman Material Safety Data sheet:
I suspect any seal conditioners are incidental to some other chemical function. It is likely to have a good Total Base Number and soot suspension in addition to exceptional detergency, though, as it apparently is marketed primarily toward large diesel engines :)! I would and do use pretty much any 30W I have sitting around for my small engines before paying what they ask for 2.5 oz., or I will when I run out of the 30W non-detergent I bought when I though that was important.
Sorry, but Pellgunoil has irked me for years.
Man is that subject a big can of worms!
Everytime I mention that pellgun oil has extreme detergency as mentionned in the monolec flyer I get bashed by other forum members.
So either Crosman is lying or has the wrong product file or Monolec is lying or has the wrong product file…
I bought enough pellgun oil when I found them on clearance in a store that was moving to a new location, I should be good for a few more years, I hope the argument is settled before I run out of it.
That’s an odd one to pick if you are just making up a source for the MSDS :)! Also, there are likely penalties for misrepresentation. Honestly, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter what oil you use as long as it it an somewhere between 15 and 40 weight, but I’ll probably stay with 20 or 30W to be safe! What are the chances Crosman has or ever had a tribologist on staff to formulate Pellgunoil or that an oil company assigned someone on contract to make the perfect airgun lube, for sale in 2.5 oz. packages? I also think that Daisy’s position is more honest, respectful and less patronizing to the consumer.
The forums, huh? I saw one where they went looking to buy this exact oil (there’s some funny moments at the truck stop), and others where they speculated that it was everything from ATF to whale oil. Like most shooting specific lubricants, it is simply a commodity item relabeled and overpriced.
BG sorry I forgot to mention it, I was talking about the canadian airgun forum, it’s the only forum I go to.
Talking about the content of these little plastic containers is a taboo subject.
For the record I don’t think either Crosman or Monolec is wrong or is lying.
I think some guys are a bit frustrated because they’ve heard and/or have been saying “non-detergent 30W motor oil” that it’s become gospel and being shown by A+B that it is not, is unbelieavable to them, it’s like telling them we can levitate or breath under water.
I’ve heard the ATF thing too, probably because of it’s color because it doesn’t smell like ATF at all.
I’ve heard some say detergent motor oil had destroyed their seals faster than non-detergent motor oil.
Some use their own special blend and swear by it.
I think the ONLY valid argument against the Monolec file I’ve seen is it’s not thick enough to not have something else added to it but it would change the extreme detergency of the thing into non-detergent…
When it starts to get ugly I always try to smooth things out a bit by asking if we should use the oils formulated for high mileage engines on older vintage guns.
I still use Pellgun oil, these little container leak so I put them in ziploc bags and I don’t have anything better and should still be good for a year or two with what I have left.
BG Farmer – the motorcyclists have become like that, they insist on exotically labeled products like “Motul” etc. and pay through the nose for the most commonplace stuff, turns out for an air-cooled 4-stroke motorcycle engine, Rotella-T is great oil. It’s made for diesel engines, but the high temperatures an oil-shearing wet clutch of most motorcycles benefit most from it too. As for brake fluid etc., good old Valvoline brand, anything that’s the right DOT standard is good. Back in the day(tm) motorcyclists might have paid 2X for Torco or Kendall, but now they’re paying like 5X as much.
RotellaT is a good oil type for lots of things. I switched two of my lawnmowers (twin cylinder B&S’s) to 15W40 and saw immediate benefits, in that they started easier, ran cooler and used a bit less gas compared to SAE 30W. I want to try the T5 semi synthetic 10W40 next year, so I can put it in everything, including my old Ford truck; the 15W40 is a little heavy to start in cold weather.
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! While the oil companies and ignorant magazine editors insist that motorcycle specific oil has additives in it to resist shearing (more from gearbox than the clutch), it’s all a bunch of advertising mumbo jumbo. Same thing with “super slippery energy efficient oil” – the magazines warn of clutch slippage because the stuff is TOO SLIPPERY. In 40 years of riding, I’ve never worn out an engine from using automotive type oil or suffered a slipping clutch. The only poor experience I ever suffered was using 5W30 Mobil One in a Harley Evolution engine. The oil was too thin and leaked through almost every gasketed surface on the engine and blew out the breather tube into the airbox. Soaked my boots but at least they became water proof for a while.
This article is from Motorcycle Consumer News – the “Consumer Reports” of the motorcycle magazine industry – no advertising accepted. The study was done with assistance from a CAL State:
My apologies to all for going way off topic. And now, to the pistol range for 30 yard shooting!!!!
It’s a Harley…. It’s supposed to leak…… 😉
Only on the floor, Dave! NOT on the boots, man! 🙂
I don’t know where you guys are getting your Harleys but you really ought to replace those 20yr old things and join the 21st century at your nearest Harley dealer.
Here’s what I’ve discovered so far. (I put a few more drops of Silicone oil on the sponge rubber seal at the pump head and made sure oil was on the o-ring in front of it) If I extend the pump handle fully until I hear the hiss then pump it a few times more until I feel pressure build up, then lock the handle and shoot, I can get as high as 478fps. So, like you said I can coax another 50fps that way. But on the very next pump that I do, with a normal one time pump, it shoots 430fps. This is telling me something is wrong, I think. I can really tell returning the handle, after a normal one pump, takes less effort than it had a few months ago. So it looks like it’s not getting a good gulp of air on a single pump. Does this sound like normal wear?
I think you should be using the Pellgunoil instead of the sillycone chamber oil .
Pellgunoil might work but here’s why I’ve used Silicone oil:
Scroll down to where it says “Use Silicone oil – wisely”.
O.K. I see that.
The only place I have been using silicone oil is for chamber lube. Since silicone is bad for lube on metal to metal contact (most of the pump parts) I have not been using it for that.
That report was written in 2005. Since then I have learned a lot more about Pellgunoil. Use it for this job.
And it was written by some impostor named “B.B. Pelltier” go check it LOL!
Funny! That was the first month that the blog was written, and I guess he typoed it. I do the same thing with my first name 🙂
Edith, did you get my long comment which seems to have disappeared?
I have seen several comments from you, but none were especially long. All comments are emailed to me. When I did a search of all of your comments, they all match what was posted here. Stuff disappears sometimes. It’s happened to me. I can’t explain it!
Argh, when will I learn to make copies. Thanks for checking.
I was wondering if this would be a case of the old triumphing over the new. (My surplus rifles feel more substantial than the new ones.) But apparently now. The pattern in the cardboard looks to me like it is more accurate than the single groups that make it up….
/Dave, that cosmoline is why I sending the surplus rifles to a gunsmith for a full-service cleaning. I’m lucky that the cosmoline at least has not interfered with the bolt of the Mosin which is smooth as can be.
Mike and Volvo, a burst of research on the new Mini-14s indicates that the rifle is capable of 1.5 MOA with handloads. Cut the rifle some slack for its light weight, and then take it away for such a small caliber. That’s pretty good for a semi-auto. Mike, I’m surprised you don’t get better results with your DPMS with handloads. That rifle is supposed to be extremely accurate. Here’s an experiment that I think would be fascinating for a gun writer to do will probably never be done. The literature is full of articles trying out every combination of ammo, loads, and accessories for the AR platform and a slightly smaller number for the Mini-14. What if the same care in handloading was applied to the Arsenal AK? I suspect that once this platform is normalized for all of the resources and attention that are lavished on the AR that the accuracy margin would dwindle down to practically nothing.
Given that the Mini-14 is based on the Garand action, I wonder how much that is true of the AK as well. On report claims that Mikhail Kalashnikov did not so much as invent a new mechanism as combine the best features of the ones that existed. From the STG 44, he got the assault rifle profile (“evil features”) but not its fairly complex mechanism. There was really only one other semiauto around–the Garand. One person claims that the only feature of the Garand that was copied in the AK was its bolt raceway. But there is also the long-stroke piston with the piston mounted over the barrel instead of under, the way that magazine rocks into the well like the M14, and the fabled accuracy. Could it be that the legendary antagonist of the West during the second half of the 20th century was actually an offspring of the Garand?
Flobert, that’s interesting about the oscillifun, but I believe that the main obstacle to pursuing that hobby is access to an oscilloscope. 🙂 But it reminds me of a class of psychological phenomenon called “synaesthesia” which is perceiving sensory input with another sense in addition to the usual one–in this case visualizing sound. This attribute is correlated with mental disability and with genius, especially of the savant-type. So, be aware of what you’re getting into. 🙂 There has actually been some research to show that musical chords have a relationship that corresponds to a multi-dimensional mathematical structure called an orbifold that is sort of like a super-Mobius strip. You can read about it by searching on “orbifold”, “music”, “shape”, “Princeton”. However, this discovery doesn’t enable you to make better music. It just portrays what’s there.
On our thread of fully-realized, physically accomplished and highly attractive womanhood like Crystal Ackley and the women Russian snipers, there is a powerful new candidate. They are the haenyo (Korean) or Ama (Japanese) who are freedivers who gather seafood and pearls in their coastal waters. They key is that the water they swim in is freezing cold. My brother did a full length triathlon in Japan and after the swim leg (2.5 miles), he was so cold that he could hardly peddle his bicycle. The women have been practicing their trade for at least the last 2000 years, and until very recently they did not wear wetsuits or much of anything at all!????
So, what does this have to do with airgunning? (1) Breath control. The women can hold their breath for 2 minutes. (2) Physical fitness. Nancy Tompkins and Victor have told us how important this is for shooting. The women divers swim in all weathers for hours every day until their 80s. (3) Navy SEALs. They are the toughest of the tough who occupy an exalted niche among shooters. Their standard of toughness is immersing themselves in the water off of Coronado, California for 20 minutes which lowers their core temperature to the low 90s which is the threshold of hypothermia. This training prepares them to “deal with the madness of cold water while swimming off of Korea in a drysuit.” That’s great. But how then do we evaluate women who swim in this water for hours every day without any protective clothing?!!! We should recruit them and teach them how to shoot. In a similar vein, it is said that the lobster fishermen off the coast of Maine have very high rates of alcoholism and stress due to the severe weather and dangers encountered on their fishing boats. What would happen if they had to go diving in after their lobsters??? (4) The ultimate and semi-serious point. This is another case of blowing the doors off expectations of what is possible which makes you think that the full human potential is way beyond what you think. The clear implication is that I should go out and start shooting 200 rounds per day. This point was actually made by a guy who is a professional shot for Para-Ordnance who works with their double-stack 1911s. He claims that he has about 2 million rounds downrange and that he used the first 1 million to learn how to shoot…
Whenever I write anything lengthy or that I think I will never be able to come up with again no matter how many times I try to do it, I write it in another software and keep it til I see it online. Hard-learned lessons make lasting impacts & are effective training tools 🙂
Generally true, except for me. But I’m catching on. 🙂
The first two handloads I tried in the DPMS shot 1 inch @ 100 yds. I haven’t yet tried to improve on that yet. I think that 1 inch groups in the real world is very good for an standard weight barrel AR. Now the Savage HB model 12, it’s about 3/8 inch. Some work should improve on that too.
O.K. It’s too quiet here. Been a long time since food came up, so here goes….
I found that I am disappointed with a lot of the pizza around here, and decided what to do about it.
Starting with a Digiorno ultimate toppings deluxe as a base…
Splatter half of a jar of pizza sauce on it. Cover with shredded pizza cheese. Cover with pepperoni. Throw on sliced olives, mushrooms, hot banana pepper slices, jalapeno slices, chopped onion, and some anchovies. Some chopped bell pepper too if you have it.
Takes longer to cook than the instructions on the pizza box say. Serve with crushed red pepper and oregano or Italian seasoning…..and BEER.
A Frankenstein pizza is only limited by your imagination and what you have on hand.
I like all those ingredients, too, but I would also take 1/4 lb hamburger chopped up fine, browned, and sprinkled over the top.
Don’t care much for burger on it, but browned sausage is good if it is the right kind. Don’t much care for most.
Oh crap…I forgot….BACON.
For more zing, a few splashes of Louisiana Hot Sauce when adding the pizza sauce.
I hope your bed spread is flame retardant! You really should try out making your own dough……not much to it,and make extra…….the rest can make cheeezie bread or great garlic (Gaahhhlik!) rolls.
Just cut half inch strips a couple inches long,tie an overhand knot,then tuck the long end into the center.group them 1/4″ spaced apart,and drizzle good EV olive oil & crushed salted garlic cloves.Parmesan Reggiano,shaved or finely shredded.My last name is Balistreri…….drop me an Email
and I will write you some recipes for Christmas.Easier than falling off a bike!
I made my own from scratch a few times a long time ago. Takes a while to do it that way.
Got some recipes for crust, sauce, and cheese with a large pizza pan that I bought. Made one big pizza that took three or four days to eat.
Used to make some really bad chili too. The diet stuff….nobody in their right mind would eat more than one bowl a day.
I make chili that’s so hot it’ll set your hair on fire. However, I’m not responsible for Tom’s baldness 🙂 It’s hot only for the uninitiated. Tom think’s it’s just “good.”
Edith,stop FLIRTING!!!!! Tom’s gonna read this! Yuuummmmm 😉
I actually put some more info on my “shooting pellets out of a ruger single-six” post, I covered which .22 round I intend to use and why, and show some nice pretty porny pictures of ’em all taken apart. And how *I* pull .22’s, etc.
I’m just adding to that one post so instead of people having to hunt down different parts, it’s all in one place. I expect it to become a fairly notorious Internet object.
I need to cover the pellets and how I’m patching ’em, and then do the shooting and take pics of the targets. Then just some general discussion. For instance, the possibilities of leaving some powder in, the possibility of short-cutting it bu simply slicing the bullet off flush with the brass, which seems to make a quiet little pellet-like thing (which I’ve not tested for accuracy).
I need to get it all done since it looks like I’ve got a circuit-board contract coming in which will mean some actual cash flow. SMDs, oh boy.
Matt – Actually getting an oscilloscope isn’t that hard, they do show up at ham radio swap meets and so on. I’ve got either 7 or 8 of them right now. I might have one or two more …. they can be kind of like cats…
So, there I was in church trying to rise above the rampant commercialism of Christmastime and keep at bay the relentless images of lovely airguns, surplus rifles, pistols, targets, sight pictures, and this interesting new memoir of the Eastern Front that I picked up. But then what do I see?!!! A kid with a Justin Bieber hairstyle!!!! A windswept helmet-head!!! Argh. My sense of harmony went out the window. But resistance is possible. If everyone does what he or she can during this season to interfere with the purchase of those Justin Bieber action figures in stores, we might be able to accomplish something. We will be like the seed from which the crystal grows and strike a blow in favor of basic decency.
I think Justin Bieber action figures will make fine targets!
I cleaned my laptop keyboard and killed the A key, so I’m typing on an Apple keyboard from the Emac years with my lappy set up on I dunno, some Netgear ethernet thingie I got out of my tronics treasure trove because it’s the right size …. I’ll have to get a new keyboard from Ebay or something and until then, I’m typing on two keyboards it’s pretty welrd.
I just put more stuff on my blog post including the GOREY DETAILS on the pellets and patches and stuffin’ ’em in. It’s all over in fact except the shouting, er, shooting. I just need to set up a 10m range where the neighbors won’t see and get those targets punched.
I have results! Basically, what I’ve learned it, the bulk-pack Remington ammo they sell at Wal-Mart is better for primer-powered-pellets than fancier stuff, and that all three makes of pellets I tried are kinda loose in the chamber and need a patch.
I got a group with Daisy pellets and the Remington brass that I’d call acceptable, the key now is to figure out how different the POI is for pellets vs. .22 rounds, and I’ll have to go to a range for that. A pistol is LOUD. The Remington 550-pack ammo makes for a LOUD pellet load but it kinda sounds like a heavy duty nail gun so the sound is not that out of place around here.
Edith, Flobert and B.B. Pelletier, thanks a lot for you help with the Walther scope.
I like the original bantams. They weighed roughly 15.3gr and contained alot of antinomy to harden the lead. I had a case where a raccoon needed dispatched and all I had available was a Benjamin 312 with some old very soft Crosman flatnosed .22cal pellets and a Sheridan. First I tried the 312 and it refused to give in. The pellets where flattening out on its skull and not penetrating. I finally had my wife get my Sheridan and 4 pumps and 1 bantam pellet dispatched it immediately. The Sheridans definitely where marketed for superior penetration and with the bantam pellets with excellent sectional density did penetrate excellent. The nice thing about that is that one didn’t need to many pumps to humanely dispatch critters. Some of my Dans shot the bantams really well and others didn’t group well at all. Thankfully Bob Beeman was coming onto the scene with a wide variety to select from. For the most time though I found myself using the bantams. Accuracy and penetration (to me) are the most important things. Energy transfer has little to do with taking game. Especially from an airgun that shoots at 12-14fpe. One does not kill by hydrostatic shock or tearing arteries. If I wanted to keep the pellet from over penetrating, I would only use 3 pumps….I also like the JSB .20cals, the 13.7 and especially the 15.8gr ones. Both shoot well in all of my Dans. But, still to this day if I see a woodchuck or have a raccoon trying to tear apart my chimney I don’t grab for one of my many “magnum” breakbarrels, I reach for my open sighted Dan pumped to 4 or 5 pumps and put in a old bantam and it is lights out.