Legends M712 full-auto CO2 BB pistol: Part 3

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2

Legends M712 Full Auto CO2 BB pistol
Legends M712 full-auto BB pistol.

This report covers:

• Accuracy
• Watch that selector switch!
• Range setup
• Loose barrel? — NOT!
• Rock ‘n’ roll
• Final impression

Today, we’ll look at the accuracy of the Legends M712 full-auto CO2 BB pistol. I’ll tell you right now that very few machine pistols have ever been accurate in the full-auto mode, and I don’t expect this one to be, either. In fact, given the poor ergonomics of the grip, this may be the worst machine pistol ever made. I won’t hold that against it, though, because it’s fun to shoot that way. Just don’t expect to hit anything.

Watch that selector switch!
After installing a fresh CO2 cartridge, I was going to take a single shot to get the gas flowing, but I forgot about the selector switch. One shot turned into 7-10 as the gun burst out as fast as it could fire. I can control an M60 machine gun to shoot 2-3 shots, and an M3 grease gun is a snap to shoot single shots, but I doubt anyone can fire just one shot with the M712!

Range setup
I shot from 5 meters using a rested hold on a prototype UTG monopod that I’ll be writing about in the future. The pistol was easy to control this way. I loaded only 10 Umarex Precision Steel BBs into the magazine each time, because I wanted to keep track of my shots. When a pistol shoots as easily as the M712, it doesn’t take much to get trigger-happy and shoot more than you intend.

Loose barrel? — NOT!
There was a LOT of discussion about loose barrels and how difficult this pistol is to get on target, but the test pistol worked just fine. I ran the rear sight elevator all the way down and used a fine sight picture (read this report for an explanation). I found that at 5 meters, the BBs hit the target about 1.5 inches above the front sight and in line with it. And bear in mind that Paul Capello tested this same gun for his video before I got to test it. So, it’s been shot a lot.

The trigger is so smooth and light that it was easy to shoot shot after shot from the rested position. The first target gave me a group that measures 1.525 inches between the centers of the 10 shots. This was the best group of the session, and it wasn’t the only one that was this good.

Legends M712 Full Auto CO2 BB pistol group 1
Ten shots went into 1.525 inches at 5 meters. It may look smaller than that, but one BB went to the left of the main group — hitting the 5-ring at 10 o’clock (lower left in this photo).

I thought the second group might be smaller, now that I was accustomed to the pistol, but it wasn’t. It is an identical 1.525 inches for 10 shots! That is just a coincidence that may never happen again, plus there’s probably a lot of measurement error since I am measuring BB holes; but that’s as close as I can measure it.

Legends M712 Full Auto CO2 BB pistol group 2
The second group was 10 shots in the same 1.525 inches at 5 meters. This may not happen again (2 groups the same size).

Rock ‘n’ roll
I didn’t want to shoot this pistol on full-auto at a target because I have shot hundreds of full-auto firearms in my life, and I know how they behave. I expected this one to open up and also climb with the recoil — and, of course, it did! Knowing it was going to scatter, I got to within 10 feet of the target and squeezed the trigger. Like every other machine pistol, the first few shots went to the point of aim and the rest went high and right. Because I was so close to the BB trap I managed to keep all 10 BBs in the trap and on the paper — but it was close!

Legends M712 Full Auto CO2 BB pistol group 3
Spray and pray! Shooting full-auto, the first 3 BBs hit the bull and the other 7 went wide to the right and high.

Of course, paper targets aren’t what you shoot using guns like the M712. This is a gun for rolling soda cans around the yard on a warm day. People will enjoy the experience and will not expect it to be a tackdriver — that isn’t even the purpose of the pistol. This is a fun gun — pure and simple. And if you’re the host of the shooting party, you better own stock in a CO2 factory, because this gun goes through some gas!

Final impression
I like the M712! Umarex doesn’t need me to endorse it — it stands on its own merits. All you have to do is fire one burst and you’ll understand what makes this gun one of the finest of the Legends series. If you have a hankering for a full-auto machine pistol, this one is the real deal. Get it and don’t look back.

150 thoughts on “Legends M712 full-auto CO2 BB pistol: Part 3”

  1. I can get maybe as few as 3 or 4 on a burst but that’s at a cost of concentrating on the gun, not the target. Accuracy thusly suffers.
    Back in the day, we were trained to caress the M60 and it’s older A4 and A6 siblings into classic “bursts of six.” Very effective and suprisingly accurate.
    Of course we used to harass the tankers with their M48 tanks by congratulating them at their accuracy while using a not-quite-50-ton tripod. (That’s for B.B.). 🙂
    Somewhere lurking around I’ve an equally classic shot of skinny young Troop [me] posturing with an M60 circa 1967 or so. The basic Big-Black-Shades really set the moment off. A classic image as I’ve a near identical pose of my Dad with a BAR circa 1940 or therebouts. I suspect if Kodak Brownies had been issue items for the Romans under Hadrian, there’d be snaps of 17 year-olds posing by the Company Trebuchet in pretty near identical poses.
    Say what you will about that shivering Troop in the Oklahoma winter of 1967, but the VC never got past me!
    I’ve found the mauser also to be more than reasonably accurate with no loose barrel issues. I check it after every CO2 cylinder and so far, so good.
    Just as a tip, if one were to wander to the backyard either very early or very late in the day, with the sun dramatically low in the sky (a Clint Eastwood/John Wayne Hollywood Lighting moment,) arrange the sun directly behind you, and fire a burst or two or three, you’ll find them shiny silver BB’s light up real pretty as they go down-range. Real handy if you want to really see where they’re going.
    Consider playing Ennio Morricone on your headphones to complete the moment.
    So far, the Mauser has been a real hoot. Once the range guys grasp the alternate concept of “AIRGUN” (which seems to be more difficult for them than your average far left liberal,) even they want to try it.
    Bottom line, way fun, get spare mags, learn to shoot it and like most full auto items, suprisingly accurate after all.
    “If you can’t hit from here, call air support.”
    “If that don’t work, call us. XX Ordinance (Tactical Nuclear)

        • A tale was relayed to me that as we were withdrawing, Mr. Ho and company was informed he was going to allow us to do such with no further hindrance. To emphasize the point, a Pershing without a warhead landed in downtown Hanoi.

          • Yikes!
            That would do alright. 😉

            Now that I think about it, would also plausibly explain southeast asian international relations for the last half-century or so.
            Since at this late date, you and I are probably among the very few that even know the meaning of the word “Pershing” in this context, consider this scenario;
            Imagine the midnight dialogue at the Central Commitee, and then the phone calls to China, and then the phone calls to Russia to try and answer the burning question, “What the Heck is this?” (“Heck” probably not precisely the word being used.”)
            And then be the fly on the wall while they were told what exactly it was… :):):)

      • Dear Air Support,
        While I’d love to take credit for this one, it was related to me from a far more experienced RTO/FAC of my acquaintance.
        It seems their patrol had eased their bad-selves into a shooting war with some artfully concealed opponents and cut leaves and branches were raining down upon them…along with the occasional searching mortar shell. In retrospect it would seem the baddies had tripped the ambush too soon and were a bit farther out then anyone, including them, thought. So the situation was all Fog-Of-War where neither side really knew precisely where the other was.
        In other words, situation normal…fubar.
        It turns out the LT and the RTO/FAC were an experienced pair and had been is a similar situation before.
        LT gets on the Line, all proper freaks and all. Says words (to the effect,) “This is Blue Fox Leader Air Support, where do you want it?”
        RTO/FAC picks up the Line and in a different voice, says words to the effect, “Designating our position, color Purple Air. I repeat, our position Purple Air.” And hangs up.
        The ambush bad guys are extremely cooperative and within ten seconds a virtual cloud of Purple Smoke rises out of the woods…almost a half-mile away.
        While it would be okay to claim a mighty victory, discretion being the better part of valor, and the Air Support being entirely fictional, not to mention decidedly outgunned, our heroic Patrol beat a hasty retreat with no apparent casualties on either side.
        And both sides lived to tell the tale of their “Mighty Victory.”

  2. GF1,

    I would not be afraid to buy a refurb from PA any more than I would be afraid to buy a new one. I bought a refurb Bug Buster recently. Quite frankly, I could not tell it was used, refurbished or what have you. Also, I was able to get 10% off of the refurb price. When it comes time for me to buy my new sproinger, if PA has a refurb, I am going to save myself a good little chunk of change.

    Buldawg and Reb,

    I guess they could have been returns, but I strongly suspect that PA opened them up and lubed them and then listed them as refurbs. I also strongly suspect that PA has been on the horn with Feinwerkbau and told them that if they could not do better, don’t bother.

    I would not be surprised that if there is a second shipment of them that one will be sent to BB to review.


    It is sooooo hard not to buy one of these things right now! It is exactly what I need to hold off the wild horde of feral soda cans! I have it on my Wish List. Maybe one will show up for Christmas.

    • It’s a good lookin’ gun! I especially like their rear sight! I really don’t think there aren’t any problems with the gun that cannot be resolved by an adept tuner and a good once-over and I prefer to buy used myself but that Price-Tag!?
      From what I understand the refurb with discount would run about $550-a far cry from the original $899 and is a considerable amount of savings but they’re all gone now.Did you get the last one?

    • RR
      I had not thought about PA trying to actually fix the buzz at their gun service dept instead of shipping and getting them back because of the noise.
      I suspect that there were some bought and returned in enough of a volume that it prompted them to try and nip it in the bud before to many got out there.

      But you maybe right that they were trying to get ahead of the issue.


  3. Dan tried to post this, but it never showed up.

    Hey I’m new to this blog and therefore don’t have an actual name but I do own a crossman t4 pellet and bb co2 pistol I just started having issues with the gun. I’ve left the gun charged in a drawer and now a few months later bring it out for some target practice and the gun hardly had any power left figured it was just the co2 container put a new one in and getting serious “blow by” I panicked and went to YouTube to see how to take this gun apart I’m now at the final stages of taking this thing apart and have no idea how to actually take the valve assembly apart to get those o rings out and change them really need some help on this or to get pointed in the right direction where to get help I live in Ontario Canada and have never really taking one of these apart before figured how hard could it be. appreciate the time and I’m glad that there are websites like this to turn to for advice thank you very much for taking the time to go through this. Looking forward to hearing from!
    you soon and hopefully get this air gun back in working condition PS anywhere you would recommend buying a seal kit ?? Dan

    • Good Luck Dan! I’ve been in & out of a few airguns now, but I met my match when I opened up my 1008. Just too many very small parts to reassemble without a schematic and probably at least one extra hand.


      • I have to agree, it takes a lot of ruined guns before you know what your doing, that’s just a fact. A good tip is to just do the best you can and don’t do it on expensive guns or ones you’d like to keep forever. If you really want to learn how to mod and tinker, buy cheap multi pumps and co2 pistols and don’t be discouraged if they end up in pieces when you want get them working again, just going in and out and trying your best is the only way. If you do this a hundred times, all the sudden your putting them back together and they actually work again! Then you start finding how to make them work better, and you’ll still scru-bar a few, but have fun!

    • Dan
      You can go to the crosman website and get an owners manual and parts schematic for the gun and it shows parts are still available from crosman. Go to this link to download the manual and schematic and then call crosman with the part numbers you need They will only order by phone if you have the part numbers as they will not look them up for you.


      Just click on crosman pistols and the then T4 for your manual and schematic to find the part numbers and how every thing fits together.

      Good luck


  4. Mine came out of the box brand new with a loose barrel, shooting 4″ groups @ 15 feet. However, it is an easy fix , and I’m now getting 1.5″ or smaller groups at that same distance. If I take breaks between magazines (about 5 min) I can get about 4 magazines worth of shooting for each C02. Although, out of the four magazines, three are shot on semiauto with only one on “rock and roll” to get that many shots.

  5. The accuracy of this pistol in full-auto did not really disappoint me. I think of it as something that would affect your shooting if you had the real Mauser 7,63 firearm. Probably, the results for the 7,63 Mauser would be a lot worse than the BB version. Maybe the way to get better accuracy would be to add a stock/holster combination.
    By the way, I have been searching on the internet for information on other full-auto BB CO2 guns. I currently have no such guns, the only full-auto guns I have are airsoft AEGs, but they are not very durable. You have to keep changing (“up-grading”) stuff to keep them working. Now I read some complaints about the CO2 guns too. Would you say the CO2 guns to be reliable enough to keep shooting after some years of “service”? Or, better yet, what are the critical conditions for a CO2 gun to keep working?

    • Fred_BR,

      BB guns, as well as airsoft guns, are made from soft metals. Their parts are not suited to the stress of continuous friction.

      If, by years of operation, you mean will they work if they shoot 1,000 shots each year, then I think they will last. If you put 5,000 shots through them every month, I don’t think they will last.


      • I think you got to the point: friction X soft metals. The thing is that, in most airsoft guns, you can replace the gears as the originals get tired, upgrading to better materials. I don’t know if that is possible with a CO2 gun.
        I am not saying that airsoft AEGs are inherently better than CO2 BB guns, I am just trying to assess how easy it is to maintain then in the long term.

        • Fred,

          The thing is, airsoft guns are made to be repaired and modified and there are plenty of parts available. These new BB guns don’t seem to have the same arrangement. Maybe they will become repairable as time passes, but so far they are not as repairable as their airsoft equivalents.


  6. B.B.

    What BBs were you shooting in semi-auto mode to produce those 1.5 inch groups? My M712 also produced some very small groups in semi-auto mode. Umarex steel BBs gave me a 1 inch group. Crosman Copperhead BBs gave me a 1 3/4 inch group. All of the semi-auto groups were about 1 inch high and 1 inch to the right. My Legends C96 however was right on target. I understand and agree with what you say that this is a fun gun and not really a target shooting gun, but after the results I got with the C96, I expected similar results with the M712. Once those M712 accessory magazines get in, I will probably get one of those too.

  7. A tip for those attempting as short a burst as possible. When I ran the shoot out the star game I had a lot of shooters that would use the very tip of their finger on the side of the trigger instead of the front to pull it back, the first vibration would allow their finger to easily slide off and become disengaged. Those Feltmans at 130 psi would put 100 rounds downrange in about 20 seconds otherwise.Most of these shooters were able to get about 3-4 per burst.
    Happy shooting!

    • LOL! So it was you!

      I remember going to the carnival in my youth and having the guy point out to me the little tip of a red star that I had failed to remove. Of course he was pointing it out to me with a red marker.

          • I remember the overhead(i.e. shot and targets) ran 25% on that game.Not including Teddy bears and fuel Not to mention footage(some spots were as high as $500/foot) and electrical cut-in! But 12′ with 4 guns could easily gross $10,000/night, in the right spot. I only got 25% off the top for running that one because of how high the overhead was.


            • This guy never had to worry about the cost of his teddy bears as long as he didn’t run out of red markers. I guess that was one of his overhead costs.

              I am just gonna have to break down and get me one of these things. While I was out walking the dog a little bit ago, I saw a few feral soda cans scurrying about. I need to thin them out a bit around here.

              • The first time someone actually did it on my game I was in total disbelief! I’d had some really good shooters that were slow and methodical(you could tell they’d paid their dues)but this guy plopped down on the counter and cut loose like 90% of our shooters except this guy knew to go around but didn’t wanna go slow, I was watching his target all the way til it fell out and he never missed a lick-“I want that one!”. I eventually came to terms with what I’d just seen and started trying to figure out how to explain how(while on break for 15minutes) he’d lost his first(and best) piece of stock in 2 weeks.

                • Reb
                  When I was young I would use whatever excuse I could think of to do that shooting game. Then I started dating girls and I would use excuses to shoot at that game. Then I met my wife and well you know where I’m going.

                  I would love to have one of them guns right now.

  8. Looking at the slot in the handle in Part 1 of the report one could imagine somebody making a stock that will also replace the grips providing a bigger area of contact for the stock instead of just attaching by the slot. This might obviate the fact that this pistol’s frame was made from base metal.

    • That sounds like an Awesome aftermarket goody! I would think that using the furnished slot And incorporating grips like the 1399 would keep the wear-out time in an acceptable time frame while adding control and accuracy, but it may add length to the holster
      If you build it they will buy!


  9. Just got back from the scrap-yard. The manager somehow acquired a B-2( & cracked stock, rusty, bad breech seal and very dry with a broken rear sight)but here, cover your ears 🙂 . I liked the big cheek-piece!
    Buldawg, which model had the big cheek-piece?


    • Reb
      It the B3-2 that has the raised cheek rest like a monte carlo stock, the B3-1 has a straight stock without the raised cheek piece.

      The rear sight on mine will never stay put because it has only one screw on it and you cannot get it tight enough to keep the sight from moving when firing.. I have seen those sights on ebay being sold as target sight for the crosman 13xx and 22xx guns with a steel breech and you would be lucky to hit the broad side of a barn with that sight on a crosman pistol.


      • Thanks! That’s what I thought. I’ll probably wind up taking it off his hands when I have plenty of money and a little time to spend on it.The spring-tube end-plug is also ramped so it’ll be a little tricky & I’m sure the spring is broken.When I assessed the overall condition of the gun and explained to him that these were the guns that were selling for $20 everywhere in the early ’90’s, he already knew and my appraisal of $10 was accepted fairly well.
        I’ve got a feeling he paid whoever by the pound for it. I’ll let him make lunch off me when I get ready but neither of us is in a rush. This is the same guy I gave $100 for my 3120 but I won’t let this one become near the fiasco. It looks like we’ve got a decent trading relationship. He’s got a 347 I’d like to see but it stays home. He bought a Wally’s break-barrel to keep the pigeon population to a minimum on the grounds.


          • There’s a buncha stuff I still need to look for on it and I never found the ramped end-plug but I think it’s a B-3. I’ll probably have to have it in my posession before I truly know exactly what it is.

        • Reb
          Those guns are being sold brand new for 40 to 50 bucks now depending on if it is a B3-1 or B3-2 with the 2 being the 50 buck gun because of the monte carlo type stock other than the stock they are identical so if you can get it for tem=n and get that kit that archer sell for 18 bucks you could make a decent little rifle. I like my B3-1 better than the 3-2 just because the rear sight is fixed to the receiver and it cannot move so it can be sighted in to be fairly accurate at 10 meters, but they are only 500 fps guns so don/t expect to gat much out of them past 20 yards or so.


          • My understanding is they’re only good for 20-25 plinkers so I’m not gonna expect any more than my 36 & this thing’s in terrible shape. The rear sight mount and elevator are still on it but the sight itself has been broken off and someone filed a shallow groove in the mount. The foreend seemed a little thinner than your average Chinese gun.

            • Reb
              They are pretty thin at the front and my 3-2 had some cracks in the stock that I had a wood working buddy drill the end of the crack and fill it in with some wood putty to keep it from continuing to crack. Yea they are not good for any long range shooting .


  10. Happy Halloween everyone. Haven’t been posting a whole bunch lately I know, as I transition into “cold weather” hobbies like fooling around with old vintage computers and things like that. Those of you who are lucky enough to live in states with more than one or two seasons will know what I mean, hehe. Still a bit bummed out that the two big new airgun releases I was truly hyped about this year (NP2 and FWB Sport) fell quite a bit flat for various reasons but hey, there is always next year. In the meantime I can always drag out the IZH46M and launch a few across the kitchen into my trap. Could never bring myself to do much shooting in the house with the lead dust and all. Take care all…

    • Love the Izzy! These things are probably the best buy on a quality pistol there is. If you want a pistol that will out shoot these things, you are going to have to spend close to $2000. It would probably work pretty good on those vintage computers.

      Maybe one day Crosman will decide they want a piece of the high end sproinger market and build a nice looking sproinger with a decent trigger. Hey, it could happen. I’ve seen stranger things. Actually I ran across their Regal yesterday. They can make one look nice. Now if the could make it work nice.

      As far as the FWB goes, it is a very nice air rifle. Looking at the pictures, I see top shelf quality. The main problem with it is the price tag. It is a $600 sproinger. It is not a $900 sproinger. It is not half again better than the competition. That name is not worth $300 on this side of the pond.

      • RR

        Yeah, I saw the Regal looks like a Benji Trail NP in a different stock. I’m not a big fan of the stock on my Benji Trail hate the way it is finished and I’m not a fan of the thumb hole design. At least in the photos the Regal stock looks nicer. Through on a CharlieDaTuna aftermarket trigger and this could be a nice gun for about $200.


        • Pa oldman
          Don’t waste the money on a GRTIII trigger just go to a RC hobby shop and buy a 2.5mm wide by5mm ID by 8mm OD bearing and put it over the sear pin in the trigger that is two different diameters on it and put the bearing in the slot of the trigger where the pin goes thru and remove the small pin and spring on the lower 1/8 inch diameter hole in the trigger then remove the screw at the rear of the trigger housing that is used to adjust the first stage pull length and the plastic piece it threads into than put the trigger back in making sure the sear lever is center between the slot in the top the trigger where it will ride on the bearing you installed in the trigger and you will have a very smooth trigger with about a 1/8 inch first stage with a very crisp and clean break at the second stage.

          I have done it on my titan and used a 9mm OD bearing first but it made the safety inoperable and a hair trigger so the 1mm smaller diameter bearing is just enough to allow the safety to still work but makes a very short first stage with no second but rather just a smooth crisp release. the trigger slot is 3mm wide so you may want to shim both sides of the bearing but it is not really necessary as the sear sit inside the slot of the trigger and centers itself good,


          • I will have to keep this in mind for the next time I run across a sproinger in a yard sale. I do like the adjustability of the GRTIII though. It allows you to get the trigger right where you like it, though with me, I prefer almost no first stage and just think shoot and it goes off. BB does not like how I set up my triggers.

            He tried out my Edge one time. It has about 1/32″ first stage, a nice crisp few ounce pull on the second and zero over travel. I absolutely adore a FWB match trigger. You just do not touch my triggers until you are ready.

            • RR
              I am the same way as I like almost no first stage and then just basically no second just touch the trigger and it fires and that is how the 2.5 by 5 by 8mm bearing does is give you about a 1/32 of an inch first stage and then it releases very crisp and smooth. I have two GRTIII triggers and have tried all kind of adjustments and none seem to be as good as the bearing setup at being how I like my triggers.

              I have very little feeling in the tips of my fingers so I cannot feel when the first to second stage occurs and just do much better with a trigger that fires when you touch it , I admit it is not what most shooters prefer but I have shot several of the field target guns of the shooters at my local range and they are all less than a pound of pull and to me feel just right so that is what I am looking to achieve with mine.

              The bearing in the crosman and benji guns is as close to that same feel as I have found yet.


            • Reb
              Yep that’s is the trick, but the 3 by 5 by 9mm bearing on my titan was way more of a hair trigger than the one he showed in the video as the safety would not stop it from firing with minimal pressure on the trigger and I want the safety to work so I am trying the 2.5 by 5 by 8mm bearing. I guess with stack up tolerances some guns will work with the 3 by 5 by9mm and some wont or it may depend on the wear on the sear and piston latch also. my gin are practically new so there is not any real wear.


              • I stumbled across that video a couple years ago when I started getting my guns going and just thought it might come in handy there. Maybe I’ll get something like that Regal I can use it on one of these days. Would it work on Gamos too?

                • Reb
                  Yea it works on any gun that takes a GRTIII trigger and that include a lot of gamos and crosman and benjis. I like the feel and it makes for a very short smooth trigger.


                  • I’ve never seen a GRTIII trigger or even a gun that has one in person but I was hoping so. Thanks! I was trying to figure out a way to help the one on my 36 but I think all that really can be done that I haven’t already done is to put a lighter spring in it.

        • I am an old guy also and never did warm up to the Mattelomatic.

          Contact Crosman and ask them if NP will fit in the Regal stock. There is a very good chance that it will. If so, you can put a real stock on your NP.

          When I had my Gamo CFX, I put a GRTIII trigger on it. That was the difference between night and day.

          • RR

            I’m an old guy too, I was in the National Guard in the late 60’s so we got all the M14’s from the real army guys. Much nicer weapon then the M16 in my opinion. Managed to qualify expert on the M14 only, not as good with the Mattelomatic. My M16 jammed several times while qualifying missed expert by 2 targets, glad I was only being attacked by unarmed plastic bad guys that day.

            My Trail NP has the wood stock with the thumb hole so I don’t think I am going to invest in a Regal replacement stock. But a new trigger (my gun uses the CBR according to CharlieDaTuna web site) is a possibility. The T05 trigger on the 460 Magnum is spoiling me I have it adjusted with a short first stage and second stage breaks cleanly @ 1lb 12oz.


        • Just checked it out.Looks good! And the price is down around where I’d need it to be to justify the purchase.I had high hopes for the NP2 but deep inside I knew I’d never be buying a new one.I have no problem with a thumbhole or pistol-grip stock and actually like the extra control( almost a necessity now!). I’m glad Benjamin took a stab at listening to consumers and giving the what they want,and Thank you to PA for making it available!
          When should we expect the review on this one B.B?

          • Reb
            And its saying that it will shoot a 7.9 grn. lead pellet at 1000 fps.

            I’m thinking it will like the JSB 10.34’s that I like. I’m guessing around the 800 fps zone. It should be in a good power range.

            I’m trying to find a nice nitro gun that will compete in that Bronco category. Or at least somewhat close.

            • Gunfun
              Remember mine shoots the 7.9s at 940 fps and the 10,5 at 840 fps so the 1-0,34 should be around 850 or 860 fps.

              You will like it and if it is like mine it is very smooth with no real back and forth recoil just a solid thunk,

              After shooting in the FT match today at Heflin in the 34 degrees and 25 to 30 mph wind gust I was hoping to do better but I managed to kill two feral targets, but wounded at least 15 out of the 24 that were ruining around the range today. I did not get my scope sighted in correctly before going to the match and this morning the wind was so gusty and cold that I did not even try to sight it in. So I had fun trying to kill the feral steel targets but only managed two deaths.

              I talked with a Gabriel Sallusti about my springer’s as he used to do tuning at an air gun company in NY for years and he said that I need to put the gas spring from my 22 cal Titan into the 177 venom to slow it down some and cut the barrel to 16 inches and put it in the titan thumbhole stock and it would be a much more accurate springer than it is now. So that is what I will try as I can always go back and the barrel in my spring firepower gun is 16 inches so I was going to put the firepower barrel on the 177 venom action with the 22 cal gas spring in it and the thumbhole stock. and see how it does till it get my hipac/disco tube cylinders made Lloyd for the 2240s.


              • buldawg
                Sounds like that will be a good combination she you get the break barrel stuff switched around.

                And I hope that Regal works out. I’m still on the quest to find a decent nitro gun.

                Sounds like you had a (cold) fun time at the field target event. I was wondering how that went.

                • Gunfun
                  Yea the first 2 hours were brutal cold to the point that my right hand got numb for a bit and had to keep putting glove on and off it, but it finally warmed up into the forties and was not to bad I just wished I had sighted my gun in better before I got to the range.

                  It was fun and got to shoot a couple very nice guns with Lorens LGV and Gabes HW
                  77 that he had very nicely tuned.


              • buldawg,

                Where was this you shot yesterday? I’m in Pennsylvania, northern Lehigh Valley almost in the Poconos. Yesterday we had temperatures in the 40’s with winds gusts to almost 40mph, didn’t even think about going out shooting. Same conditions today except the sun is out.


                • PA oldman
                  I was shooting in Heflin, Alabama just about 80 miles west of Atlanta off I-20 and yes it was 34 degrees at 7 am and never got over 45 degree’s all day with 25 to 30 plus wind gusts but in the woods where the field target are it did not seem quite as cold and the trees help some with the wind gusts. It was my first time shooting in the FT matches and it was fun but very challenging also and in the first hour or so of shooting my fingers were so cold that I really could not feel the trigger at all.

                  But it was worth it and I will do it again in December and the rest of the winter as we shoot every first Saturday of the month.


        • Cool be interested to hear how you like it. Aside from the stock (the finish has chipped off in several places) I like my Benji Trail NP. Problem is I love the RWS Diana 460 Magnum I just bought and I’m not shooting anything else right now.


          • I have had a trail in .177 cal. It was a pretty good shooting gun.

            I wanted to try a NP2 but saw the price on the Regal and made me decide to get it. And I do like the stock on the Regal.

        • Let us know what you think of it. If enough of us show interest, Crosman just might figure out how to make a decent looking, up to date sproinger with a decent trigger.

          • RR
            The shooting characteristics of the gun will be the big factor for me.

            I hope the nitro piston is not harsh and if it groups decent I will be happy.

            And as far as the trigger goes no telling what it will be like. But I like my triggers like BB does. A long first stage. I was talking to buldawg yesterday about his bearing mod but it takes away a lot of the first stage. So I don’t think I will like it. But that sounds like what your looking for.

            • A long first stage really isn’t that much of an issue with me as long as I can feel where it ends and the second stage begins. What I deplore is a long, grindy, unpredictable second stage. I want to feel that trigger stop and then break.

              • And the same with me kind of.

                I can live with a short first stage. I just want it to be a positive stop when I come to the second stage. Just a bit more pressure and the shot goes off with hardly any travel after the shot goes off.

                And the lighter the better as long as I can feel the second stage.

  11. Edith,
    At first I was thinking a lot of posts might be going into the Spam folder but now I’m sure the holiday had everyone out with their kids and quite a few may be recovering from “Excessive Celebration Syndrome” today.


  12. Kind of surprising that the gun behaved the same as automatic firearms while lacking the recoil. So with all its problems, what gave the original firearm its iconic status? Looks, the fact that it was first. The category of machine pistols has not exactly flourished. The only other one I can think of are the Mac 10 series which I don’t believe were successful because they were uncontrollable. I may have also seen some in the Jet Li film, Kiss of the Dragon (great film). It’s hard to figure out what the machine pistols were supposed to accomplish. If submachine guns shoot pistol ammo, what could you expect of the same cartridge and a lighter weight but uncontrollability.

    I love to see shooting at my regular five yard distance and with my 10 shot groups. This gun does have a ways to go to compete with my IZH 61.

    On another note, my fireproof/waterproof tarpaulin arrived to cover my sandbag storage bunkers for my reloading supplies. It was a little price at almost $100. But I have never seen such heavy and dense fabric. It’s like a flexible wall. And I’m reaping the benefits of peace of mind.


    • Matt,
      Have you seen the videos of this gun in action?
      Even thought the bolt may weigh only a fraction of what the firearm’s weigh it’s still a considerable amount of recoil.

  13. GF1,
    Here’s a piece B.B. did on it and others. They ran in the low 300’s
    Computer’s giving me fits
    Gotta clean it up.


      • Any time! I just read the reviews on the Regal: Best trigger out of all my springers & outshoots my 34,only other guns I have that’ll do that are my TX200 and 54.got my attention!

        • Reb
          I read those reviews on the Regal. Sometimes I’m skeptical about what they say in the reviews but it sounds like they are pretty up on airguns. And there is only 4 reviews.

          Maybe not to many people see this gun. I know I have overlooked it for some reason.

          But if it shoots like that .177 Trail I had I will be happy. I just wonder if its a Trail on the inside. I will find out soon enough I suppose.

          • Gunfun
            I did a lot of research last night on the nitro guns from crosman and benji and your Regal is the same inside as my venom and titan and it is the same as the trail as long as the one you had was the plain trail NP and not the XL model. TheXLl has a larger diameter compression chamber and different gas spring, The barrel on the regal has a different part number than the trail but the rest is basically the same, the gas spring is the same number but has an AS revision on the Trail versus the regal so I am not sure what is different with the a revision. It should be real close to the Trail you had though.

            I got all my parts for the 2240s ordered today and a muzzle break for the firepower like what is on the venom. I have decided to drill the disco steel end cap on your gun out to the 3/8 by 24 thread of the Prod spring guide and ordered a spring guide to thread onto the steel end cap also. I got two disco fill fittings, two fill fitting caps, another 2250 forearm and mounting bracket also. so I should have everything that Lloyd will need to make my tubes when he is ready. I should be able to tune both 177 guns about the same as I don’t think the 2 inch difference in barrel length
            will make that much difference. then I will use your hipac tube on my 22 cal for plinking in the backyard and hunting.

            It will all come together in time.

            Let me know when you get your regal and how you like it and the two stage trigger is really only an adjustment for the length of the first stage and does nothing for the second stage so you will most likely either want a GRTIII trigger or the bearing trick that I use and if you use the 2.5x 5 x 8mm bearing you will have a short first stage and a much better and smoother second stage let off. I watched some u tube videos on the triggers in those guns and the differences between a GRTIII and the bearing. IT seems there is quite a bit of tolerance stack ups between gun to gun so that the triggers may work with any where from a 10mm to 8mm diameter bearing with varying results in which some will work good with a 10mm bearing while others will have a hair trigger with the 10 mm and be ok with a 9mm or still be a hair trigger with a 9mm and need the 8mm so it is a trial and error on the bearings for each gun, where the GRTIII is adjustable so it will fit all guns but it is 33 bucks versus 2 or 3 bucks for the three different diameter bearings. So you will just have to get the gun and play with the trigger and see which route you want to take if you don’t like it in the stock form.


            • buldawg
              My Trail was a synthetic stock .177. It wasn’t a XL. And I was checking out some stuff also. There was mention of the carbon fiber stock to be a short stroke version. I don’t know if that applies to this hardwood stock version of the Regal. They say its suppose to be here Wednesday so will see.

              So you decided to go with the Disco end cap that we talked about instead of the 2300S end cap. Did you decide if your were going with the Prod gauge port for later on down the road with your tubes from Lloyd.

              And the trigger will be a issue for me on the Regal. I’m picky with how my triggers perform. So I’m going to see how it is out of the box. If I don’t like it I will try to adjust it. If still no good I will try the bearing mod. If still not what I like I guess it will be one of the GRT lll triggers. I will just have to see how it feels.

              • Gunfun
                I was not aware they had a carbon fiber stocked gun much less a short stroke gun as that is just what I would want for the FT matches. I just got done talking with Gabe that I was telling you about and I misunderstood what he was telling me I needed to do with on of my 177 spring guns. It was not that I needed to swap the gas spring from my 22 cal into the 177 but get a gas spring from a lower powered gun like what would be in a gun that you would buy in Illinois so instead of having a 1000 fps gas spring with lead pellets I need a gas spring that would shoot 800 fps with lead pellets and put in one of the 177 spring guns and then even cut the barrel down to 12 or 10 inches. so now I have to do some more research for the part number for the right gas spring for one of my 177s.

                I don’t think your Regal is a short stroke gun because like I said the gas spring is the same as what is in my Venom and the Trail had the same part number spring with an A at the end of the part number so I assume it is a revised part and not a different spring. You will know Wednesday.

                No I did not get the disco end cap I just got the Prod spring guide and was going to take the disco end cap that is on the 2240 I got from you and drill the degass hole out to thread in the Prod spring guide that is 3/8 by 24 thread just like in my other two 2240 so that they will all be able to be tuned about the same more easily. I did not order any gauge ports or gauges right now but when I do I will be using the Prod parts. I just got 2 fill fitting assy, 2 cover for the fill fittings, 1 more forearm for the 2250 and the bracket that holds it to the trigger assy at the front, and a muzzle break like what is on my Venom to go on the Firepower to replace the front sight and protect the barrel crown.

                Yea I would take the same approach as you with the trigger because if you can get it adjusted how you like it stock ( which I doubt ) then if not try the bearings which would be the least costly and if still not happy the spend the 33 bucks for a GRTIII trigger.


                • buldawg
                  Search Benjamin Regal on U tube. Paul is reviewing the carbon fiber stock if I rember right. And I think that is were he talks about the short stroke. And I think it is .22 cal.

                  And we can get any fps air gun in Illinois. Its just the ones above .18 cal. And shooting faster then 700 fps has yo be shipped to a firearms dealer.

                  And did you go with the steel fittings from the Discovery or the aluminum ones like in the Prod.

                  • Gunfun
                    I had forgot the exact rules you had there but the gas spring that Gabe said to use would be one that states 800 fps in 177 caliber so I got to do some more research and also check PA for they might sell one .

                    I will check u tube for the regal to see as it might have the ideal gas spring for my needs because both Gabes HW77 and Lorens LGV were short stroke guns and had barrels only 10 or 12 inches long but were deadly accurate even in the windy conditions. Gabe says that spring guns use up the air pressure behind the pellets in 10 to 12 inches of barrel length and anything longer just causes more friction and actually slow the pellet down before it leaves the barrel, so I don’t know that for sure and would have to see some hard data to prove it to me but I know the gun that him and Loren were shooting had shorter than normal barrels. In the nationals Paul Bishop that does the fancy stocks was also using a short barrel spring gun so there may be some fact in the short barrel theory.

                    I got the disco fill fittings as I did not know the Prods were aluminum versus the disco being steel and would fit in place of the discos, the tubes Lloyd is making are aluminum so maybe the steel fittings will help balance the gun.

                    Gabe said he would bring one of his 2240 HPA guns he has for me to shoot at the December matches and he also has some 2240 tethered guns and said if I need any parts for 22xx or 13xx just let him know as he has bunches of extra parts for them from all the years he worked at the air gun shop in NY. So I think between you and him I can get two very reliable and good shooting 2240s.Its a shame he lives on the east side of Atlanta which is about 140 miles away and you live in Illinois as we would have a great time shooting together. . He has invited me to come over to Covington GA to there FT range and shoot with him as they shoot every third Saturday of the month. Once my disability get approved I will be able to afford to go and shoot there some but right now the money for gas is just not there.


                    • buldawg
                      I can see how the lighter spring or less powerful nitro piston would be more forgiving when you shoot. And then shorten the barrel to get the velocity back up.

                      Hmm maybe that would be a good time to have one of those smooth bore barrels that you could screw on the adapter that would have the different twist rates to try.

                      I still believe its all about getting the components working together.

                      So what weight pellet would you use if you cut the barrel and use a spring or nitro piston that made less power.

                  • Gunfun
                    I would to shoot the 10.5 CPs or 10.34 JSBs and am looking for a 800 fps range but I have looked all through the crosman parts schematics and can only find Canadian rated gas spring guns that are in the 550 to 600 fps range and nothing else that has a gas spring that does not state 1000 fps with lead pellets. So I am baffled as to which guns have a gas spring that is detuned to 800 fps in 177 cal.

                    Yea it would probably be good to have a varying rate twist screw in barrel choke to use in the short barrels. That’s what we need to invent and start selling as it would be a big hit with match shooters I bet.

                    Yea that is what Gabe was trying to get me to understand that my gun was shooting to fast and therefore not staying as accurate as if it was 100 to 125 fps slower. My venom shoots JSB 8.44s at 925 fps average and they need to be down to around 800 fps and you know my gun will shoot the 10.34s at about 850 so I may try it with the heavier pellets next time and see if I really need to change the gas spring or just use heavier pellets. Plus I will get my scope sighted in before I am actually at the matches so I know what to expect from it. I am going to switch the venom and titan stocks though as the titan has a higher cheek rest and is lighter than the venom as far as the stock goes.


                    • buldawg
                      I know you sure been throwing a lot of combinations out there here lately.

                      I think changing the stock is a good idea. But of course only if its comfortable for you to use.

                      I’m not trying to tell you what to do. But if you got that nitro gun in your mind with the stock change and use the 10.5’s is probably going to be not a bad choice and with a decent scope of course.

                      But the magic thing that I believe you said is get the gun sighted and get out there and shoot it and learn what that one gun will do. Find out how acts in the wind. Find out if it groups better a certain distances or if there is a distance that doesn’t do as good when you shoot.

                      The best I can say is shoot that gun and that pellet a bunch to see if you think its capable to do what you want.

                      Shoot,shoot,shoot. But have fun.

            • $30 is quite a few pellets! And besides if you do the work yourself it’s much more rewarding, along with the fact that if it gets stolen it’ll have you signature on it. 😉

          • I posted this a little while ago, but I added it to a reply that the Buldawg made. Didn’t know if you would see it, so here it is again…..

            I think the anticipation of a new airgun order to arrive is an exhilarating feeling. My last rush was when I ordered a HW50S 4 months ago. I am very happy with it. I put a hawk scope on it 2 weeks ago and everything is great.
            I’m interested in hearing your critique of the Regal that’s heading your way.
            Is it the new NP2 technology or the original NP design? Also I’m curious why you picked the .177 over the .22.

  14. Gunfun
    I do like the titan stock as it is a thumbhole and it allows me to get a better grip on the gun much like the 2240 pistol style grip and it is about a pound lighter than the Venom stock. I have decided exactly what I am going to do, I know the firepower is accurate out to 40 yards with 7.9CPs so I am going to swap the guts from the venom into the firepower and vice a versa and put the firepower gas gun in the titan thumbhole stock, then put the venom spring gun in the venom stock and finally put the 22 cal titan into the firepower synthetic stock.

    The firepower gas gun will be the one I use for FT matches and I have a 4×16 by 40 AO scope I have to put on the firepower because you are allowed 12 power in the matches and the Hammers scopes are only 3×9 by40 AOs so those will go on the venom and titan. The firepower has the dovetail in the receiver like the titan were the venom has the raised piccatinny rail welded to the receiver so it may be off line just a little. I know the firepower will group 3/4 inches at forty.

    Then it is just sight it in at 25 yards and shoot ,shoot ,shoot till I am confident in the hold overs and unders for the 10 to 55 yard targets with the JSB 10.34s or 10.5s CPs which ever groups best.

    Then shoot ,shoot ,shoot and have fun, but I am also looking forward to trying Gabes 2240 HPA he is bringing to the December matches for me to try also.


    • buldawg
      I like modding guns and working on them but I think I would be burnt out by now as much as you got going on.

      I’m glad I’m finally through with all that pellet testing and tuning stuff. I got my guns all shooting in a comfortable place now. I almost hate to think about messing with them.

      Right now I’m hoping that Regal will accept the pellets I have now. I just want to put the pellets in and shoot. And we’ll see how that goes.

      And I almost got one of them Bronco’s but I’m thinking it will be just a little to light on the power side for me. But it sure has to be a smooth gun. And the trigger reminds me of the acutriggers. I just may end up with one soon also.

      • Gunfun
        it is getting a bit overwhelming I will admit that, but when you first got back into shooting air guns did you not go thru a lot of the same growing and learning pains also. I do have a lot going on but I see the light at the end of the tunnel so its is making it easier to carry on and to be honest at times I think I know how BB feels as he must never even see a dim glow at the end of his tunnel.

        That finally being through with all the pellet stuff is the aim that keeps me going forward with my projects and wanting to be thru and able to just enjoy like where you are at is getting closer every day.

        I do hope you don’t have the same trouble that you had with the hatsan with the Regal and I believe you will not as mine shoot good I just have to spend the time in getting them sighted properly and now that I have measured and found that I can get a 25 yard range in my backyard by shooting at a diagonal direction in it so I think it will go faster.

        I am not familiar with an accutrigger and is that a trigger that can be added to certain guns or is it one that came on Savage guns as you stated below. My 8mm bearings will be here Thursday so I will know if they give me the trigger feel I want and still allow the safety to work on the spring guns and it may be that one takes the 8mm bearings and the others take the 9mm. I have only put the 9mm in my 22 Titan so far and the safety does not work on it with the 9mm bearing so that is why I ordered 3 8mm bearings so I will have the right sizes for what each gun works best with.

        Then when I get all the spring guns and 2240s done I now have the 1400 and silver streak that Loren gave me to go thru and bring back to life. I am really hoping I can fix the silver streak because he said he think he cross threaded the valve in it and if I cannot get the threads straightened out it will be unfixable because it is the one that the valve is soldered in and I have never tried to unsolder a valve or don’t know if it can even be done so I hope he did not mess it up to bad. He did give me the tool to remove the valve half with so I can at least give it a shot at bringing it back to life.


        • buldawg
          When I was getting back into the air guns I picked up my old rifled barrel 760 and started shooting it and my eyes were having problems. My girls were around 6 or so years old and I wanted them to start learning. So on went a red dot.

          Then I started searching the Internet and seeing what was available now days and Ran in to the Pyramyd Air website. I wanted something that was like the pneumatic pump guns I had in the past. Then I started reading about the Discovery. I thought to myself well ain’t that cool a pump gun that had a separate pump. And man all them shots I can get before I got to fill it again.

          Then I started reading everywhere how accurate pellet guns were and I remembered them European airguns from the Airgun Research Headquarters catalogs when I was a kid. Well then the pellet quest began for my Discovery. Then the modding came along. And it ain’t never stopped.

          And I’m like you. I do like changing things around to make them the way I like them. And I say I’m kind of burnt out. But you know as well as I do what will happen when I get that Benjamin Regal. I will be popping some of the pellets that I have saved from over time to see what will work. And I’m not going to do no barrel cutting or changing power plants. Done did that stuff on different guns through out time. Yep you learn real quick what not to do that’s for sure.

          But I know one thing I’m going to make sure I always find time to shoot. and I’m glad my girls like to shoot and bug me to shoot. At least that gives me a chance to do something with them and we all like what were doing.

          Oh and the accutriger is on Savage guns but it resembles the blade trigger that the Bronco has. I know my Savage .17hmr has a very nice feel to it when I shoot it. But search the Savage accutrigger so you can see how it works. Then pull up the Bronco on the Pyramyd Air site and check out the trigger on it. I wonder if its as good as the Savage trigger.

          • GunfunI
            It was pretty much the same for me as I picked up my 1400 from behind the closet door and lubed it up and started shooting and my grandson that lives here in town was turning 6 also and it was time to start teaching him gun safety and how to shoot properly and accurately. His young eyes soon started to give him an edge over me and made me more interested in what was new out there.

            I looked at the pcps and break barrels to see what I thought would be best all around but then my health took a downward spiral and it was now more of a cost issue for what I wanted to do, so that is when I bought the 60C and got hooked on pcps and it has just been more and more from there till I am at the point I am right now.

            Then my wife’s daughter moved down here with her oldest son and I now have 2 grandkids to keep me very involved and like your girls are always wanting to shoot and learn more about the different guns so it has just blossomed from there. It keeps me feeling young when I have bad days and they come over and want to shoot or help me work on the guns.

            I made some good headway today with your 2240 by getting the valve modded the way I want it by cutting the piercing pin off the valve and tapering the tip of the spring guide and the shoulder where the spring sits so the air has a smoother flow around the head of the valve, then drilled the hole in the front half of the valve body to 11/64″ the same size as the hole that I drilled in the end of the hipac tube and expanded the seal pocket in the valve to fit my delrin seal fix for the orange seal. Then drill the transfer port in the rear valve body out to 11/64″ and spot faced to 1/4 ” dia .050″ deep for the ice maker transfer port seal mod and drill and pin the valve to the tube with 4-40 allen head screws on either side 90 degrees from the bottom screw after bushing the bottom screw to keep the valve centered in the tube. Then put the valve together and installed in the tube so that it is ready to send to Lloyd when he is ready to do the air tubes. I also got the trigger frame painted and will be putting it together later tonight. next will be drilling your barrel port out to 11/64″ and spot face it for the ice maker seal mod also.

            Then I am going to take my 22 cal hipac barrel off so I can use the breech off of it to use as a guide so I can drill your breech for the front hold down screw under the bolt probe, I know it has the screw hole farther to the rear under the bolt but I want it to be in the same location as the new style breeches so I can just easily swap them from one gun to the other and it needs the screw there to hold the breech down instead of relying on the barrel band placed close to the end of the breech to hold it down tight.

            I am only gong to swap the guts between my two 177 spring guns and put the firepower in the titan stock and that will be it for the break barrels until I get to shoot them enough to see the need to shorten the barrel. If it is accurate at the FT matches then the barrel will not be cut, but if it is not then I may consider cutting it as I can do it at my buddies on his lathe and crown it at the same time. He has done a lot of barrel work so he knows how to crown barrels very well.

            I have a savage model 99 rotary breech in 303 savage caliber, but I bet it does not have the trigger you are talking about in it as it is 100 years old but does shoot very accurately as long as you put the but plate out on your arm and not your shoulder because its radius is made for a kids shoulder and on my shoulder the points of the plate dig in instead of sitting flush on my shoulder.

            I will check out the bronco trigger and search for the savage accutrigger.


          • Gunfun1,
            I think the anticipation of a new airgun order to arrive is an exhilarating feeling. My last rush was when I ordered a HW50S 4 months ago. I am very happy with it. I put a hawk scope on it 2 weeks ago and everything is great.
            I’m interested in hearing your critique of the Regal that’s heading your way.
            Is it the new NP2 technology or the original NP design? Also I’m curious why you picked the .177 over the .22.

            • KH
              I remember you getting your HW50s. I was wondering if you like it. I love mine. What Hawke scope did you get?

              And no the Regal is not the new NP2. The Regal has been around for I while. And I definitely always get excited waiting for a new gun to arrive.

              And I’m sure people have their preferences on caliber.
              But my main reason I choose .177 cal. is trajectory. They are usually a flatter shooting pellet. Basically its less I have to worry about shooting at different distances is why I like .177 cal.

                  • Santa is having a tough time with this decision. Could be a RWS Diana 34 or maybe if I’m really good a 54 Air King.
                    I’m very happy with the HW50S, it may need a HW80 to keep it company. I have not made the leap into the PCP world, but if I did I think a .25 Marauder would be my choice.
                    Santa has lots of thinking to do over the next month.

                    • I have never shot a 34 but I got a 54 and the .177 and .25 cal. synthetic stock Marauders right now and I like them for sure.

                      I think if Santa would bring me any one of the above I would be happy. Even if I have a few of the choices already. 🙂

  15. I continue to like my M712, the known shortcomings notwithstanding or tuned (the barrel). The loading of the magazine is vexing mainly due to wuss fingers – both pushing in the bb’s and ensuring the follower stays down. I am hoping to modify the magazine to feed the bb’s in at the bottom of the tube and above the follower by grinding an appropriately sized crater-like hole at that location to make it similar to the Makarov Ultra magazine. I don’t think it is a good idea to modify the top hole. Has anyone tried this? I also want to file the follower holding step to make it more securely held.

    I see magazines are available for this model – at a high price. But I suppose the price of magazines for this and functionally similar guns is to be expected as the magazine is the fire control system (excepting the hammer).

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