by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Diana 45 is a large breakbarrel spring rifle.
This report covers:
• Velocity with Premier lite pellets
• RWS Superdome pellets
• Air Arms Falcon pellets
• RWS Hobby pellets
• Cocking effort
• Trigger-pull
• Evaluation so far
Today, we’ll look at the velocity of the Diana 45 I’m testing. I think you’re in for a surprise. I know I was startled when I saw the numbers. I’d forgotten so much!
The 45 was a magnum air rifle for its day, but in that day 800 f.p.s. was considered the fastest velocity that airguns could achieve, and only a few of them, like the Diana 45, could do it. Air Rifle Headquarters catalogs of the late 1970s show Diana 45s getting up to 860 f.p.s. after their qccurization (their name for a tuneup), but stock guns were only able to get just above 800.
As large as this rifle is, you get the feeling that it should be just as powerful as a Diana 34; but as you’ll see in a moment, this one certainly isn’t. The reason for that is a short piston stroke. When the barrel’s broken open to cock the rifle, it stops just beyond 90 degrees. Most breakbarrels today break open to 120-150 degrees. That means their pistons are being pushed back farther for a longer stroke and more power.
When Mac tested a .22-caliber Diana 45 back in 2010, he took this picture of both the 45 and the Diana 34 fully cocked. Note how much farther back the 34 barrel goes. This is the difference between a short- and long-stroke piston, and it makes all the difference in power.
Velocity with Premier lite pellets
The first pellet I tested in the rifle was our good old standard — the Crosman 7.9-grain Premier. The initial velocities I was getting were 706 to 721 f.p.s. — lower than I expected. But there’s a good chance this rifle has a leather piston seal; and if it does, that seal needs to be oiled to do its job. So, I put several drops of RWS silicone chamber oil down the transfer port using the steel needle that comes with the oil bottle. Then, I cocked and uncocked the rifle several times to spread the oil around. Having done that, we could then see if this gun was dry.
The first several shots were all over the place, with a couple detonations thrown in for good measure. Then, the rifle settled down and gave me 10 good shots with Premier lites, which averaged 771 f.p.s. The increase is enough to tell me the rifle was dry before. That means it might have a leather seal, though nothing’s certain without looking. Also, on this string the velocity varied only 7 f.p.s. — from 767 to 774 f.p.s. At that velocity, this pellet generates 10.43 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.
RWS Superdome pellets
Next up were RWS Superdomes. These pellets are pure lead, where the Premiers are a hard alloy. They weigh 8.3 grains and averaged 735 f.p.s in the 45. The spread was 18 f.p.s. and went from 725 to 743 f.p.s. At the average velocity, Superdomes produced 9.96 foot-pounds of muzzle energy.
Air Arms Falcon pellets
I tried Air Arms Falcon domes next. They averaged 785 f.p.s. with a 30 f.p.s. spread that went from 773 to 803 f.p.s. Right there, the 45 broke the 800 f.p.s. “barrier.” In the days when it was new, that qualified it as a magnum.
At the average velocity, Falcons produced 10.03 foot-pounds of energy. I expected a bit more power from them because they’re lighter than the Premier lites; but to this point, the Premier lites are the power champs.
RWS Hobby pellets
The RWS Hobby pellet was the ultimate test for velocity when the Diana 45 was new. I expected them to be the fastest in this rifle and they were, with an average of 793 f.p.s. The velocity spread was 28 f.p.s. and went from 778 to 806 f.p.s. At the average velocity, the Hobby generates 9.78 foot-pounds of energy, so the old rule of light pellets being the most powerful in spring guns doesn’t hold true in this one. At least, not at this time. Maybe that’ll change after I tune the rifle.
If this rifle seems weak to you, it really isn’t. I would say it’s on the low side of normal for this model. You may read things on the internet about fabulous tunes and how they can break 1,000 f.p.s. in .177; but every time I run down one of these rumors, it turns out to have a flaw. The most common is a Diana 45 that’s actually the model 34 that carries a 45 model number. Some folks just can’t recognize the distinction between this old model 45 and the one that followed it after this one was terminated in 1988.
Cocking effort
The rifle cocks with around 32 lbs. of force right up until the trigger is cocked and the safety is set. Then, the scale needle spikes up to 35 lbs. But that comes at the end of the cocking stroke, just as the cocking leverage starts to improve (remember how far this barrel breaks!). The cocking effort feels heavy to me.
Trigger-pull
The trigger on the test rifle is adjusted very well, with a 2-stage pull that breaks at 3 lbs., 3 oz. There’s a hint of creep in stage 2, but I’ll disregard it, because the adjustment is so nice as it is. I might lubricate it during the tune, but I absolutely will not “stone” the sear or any other trigger parts! These rifles have parts that are case-hardened to a very shallow depth, and stoning or (shudder) filing the metal parts can cause real safety problems. Best to leave well enough alone.
Evaluation so far
I never liked the Diana 45 when it was available. Every one I shot was buzzy — including this one. But I shot them back in the days before the Beeman R1 took air rifle velocities up to 1,000 f.p.s. So, this was a real magnum.
The R1 is a much more solid rifle. It’s heavier, larger and has a better trigger. Also — and this is really what drove my opinion — the R1 is easy to disassemble, where the Diana 45 does require some technique. Back in the day, I didn’t have a fancy mainspring compressor, so I made my own super-clunky one. It worked, but it didn’t invite tuning many guns.
However, as an airgun writer, I found I could not ignore the Diana line. In the early 1990s, they were considered entry-level spring guns, both because of their low price and also because there were no decent Chinese rifles around to challenge them. El Gamo did make air rifles, but back then they were lower-powered guns.
As competition came to the market, Diana upgraded their air rifles, but this model 45 was left behind. It was never upgraded the way the model 34 was. Now, I find myself face-to-face with a rifle from the past. It doesn’t know what year it is, so it’s going to do what it was designed to do. But, over the 26 years since it was last sold new, we’ve learned so much more about how to properly tune spring-piston air rifles that I think we’re in for a treat.
What I’m saying is don’t expect to see a big increase in power. But do anticipate a Diana 45 that shoots as smooth as glass!
Sometimes when things work out you could see a increase in power along with smoothness.
My TX improved in velocity along with smoothness after the tune I did. I can try to explain how it feels and shoots now but words just don’t do it justice. I shoot this gun everyday now. Its like I want to keep seeing how it feels.
And I’m really wanting to get more time on the LGU but I keep picking up the TX.
I can’t wait to see how your tune goes on the 45. And I think my HW50s is next. I was trying to hold back and leave it alone but after the TX tune job its getting real hard to resist tuning it.
Well, since you don’t shoot the LGU anymore, you should consider selling or trading it. We wouldn’t want it to start feeling lonely or neglected now, would we? I just happen to know someone who would be happy to open their home to it and welcome it as his very own. 😉
RR
You know me how I change my air gun inventory around you never know what could happen. 🙂
And I’m very happy with the TX and LGU. They are the only 2 guns I have been picking up to shoot lately. I went through all my air guns last weekend and verified my scope cap cheat sheets for my hold overs and after that was done I have been shooting the LGU and TX everyday this week.
Now maybe I can just relax and shoot them. 🙂
GF1,
I seem to recall that you stated that in the somewhat recent past that you had owned a Stoeger X20S. Can you recall whether the barrel pivot was a screw you could tighten or a rivet/pin as they use on the newer BSA’s?
RR
I did have one. I’m going by memory so I’m not 100% sure but I believe it had a screw.
You may be able to do a search for a diagram for it if you want to know for sure.
And it was a pretty good gun for the price. The x20s with the as shipped from the factory muffler on it. It shot pretty good and the report was quiet.
GF1
Have you been watching the velocity on the HW50 ? I found all of my HWs to be slowing down the more I shot them. Mine were all lubed heavily with a clear, thick , sticky grease . It seems to get thicker and stickier over time . The piston seals seemed to be dragging in it, and required frequent oiling to keep the velocity up.
I put Vortek kits in all of them except for one of the R7s. The Vortek seals are a different texture and shape than the HW seals, and I think they drag less. The POI of the R7 kept creeping up on me . Think the velocity was having a significant increase as the guides broke in, but have not been back to the chrono with it .Seemed to be doing the same with the .177 R9 too. That one was getting pretty close to 900 fps last time I checked it (FTS).
twotalon
TT,
GF1 and I purchased HW50s last June.
GF1 reported his rifle was smoother and more accurate than mine, the latter probably due to his greater shooting ability, and my poorer choice in pellets.
New, my rifle fired H&N Barracuda Green 12.65 grain pellets at 630fps for 11.0 fpe. The rifle averaged ten shots in 3/4″ at 25 yards and vibrated on discharge. A reliable UTG scope failed when put on the HW50.
I installed a Vortek High Output kit in the HW50 using the supplied grease. The rifle became very smooth, but velocity decreased slightly to 615 fps for 10.3 fpe. There was no change in accuracy.
I’m out of the H&N Green pellets, so a direct comparison can’t be made, but six months and 2,500 pellets later, the rifle now gives 600 fps with H&N 14.66 grain pellets for 11.7 fpe, and shoots 5/8″ groups.
It may just be due to break-in, but the rifle is a little more accurate, a little more powerful, and very smooth. I have not yet observed the problem you’re describing.
Best Wishes,
RB
RB
It is possible that HW changed seals and/or lube since I bought my HWs.
Not going to buy a new one just to find out.
twotalon
RB
So yours did start doing better for you. And I often wondered if the different calibers make a spring gun act different in the way the guns shot cycle is affected.
After you retightened your stock screws did they start holding. It almost seems like the stock has to settle in too.
And I will have to say that the HW50s is the hardest gun I have to shoot right now. It took me a bit to figure out the hold on that gun. The less I touch it the better it shoots. So in this case the guns better than me. 😉 I just had to learn what it wanted to do. 🙂
TT
Yes I have been watching the HW50s and the TX and LGU. The LGU has sped up a little. Its averaging about 608 now. Was about 596.
The HW50s is staying the same with velocity and its got a bit of a twang to it from the spring after shooting the TX and LGU they are both dead quiet.. So I’m going to tune it just for the fact of the noise and I would like to calm it down a little after comparing it to the TX as far as shot cycle goes. I don’t really want to speed it up its in the low to mid 700’s right now but if it does a little I guess that will be ok.
As far as the TX goes its as smooth as butter and no noise. And I even detuned it as for as velocity goes. I put the 12 fpe Vortek pro glide kit that came with the lower velocity spring. It has sped up. It is right back up to the factory velocity I got with the 10.34 JSB’s which is in the low 800’s right now.
So yes I’m going to see if Vortek offers a 12 fpe kit for the HW50s. I think it would probably be a wise choice after seeing what the TX turned out like. But I did a lot of things to the TX that’s not normally done. And when I do the HW50s I will check to see if I can do the same.
GF1
OOPS . Meant FTT in the R9.
twotalon
GF1,
I was wondering, do you tune your own rifles or do you have someone else tune them? If you use someone else I would like to know who that is. I really want to get my R9 and TX200 tuned. Maybe even the LGV. I think all three of mine should be shooting smoother, but especially the R9. I’m not interested in increasing velocity. So, would you please tell me who you use to tune your rifles, if anyone? Thanks.
G&G
G&G
You know what is funny I really just started messing with the springer’s. I got my first one about 6 years ago and that was the 54 Air King and all I did was shoot it along with my modded 1377’s and 2240’s, Then got into the pcp thing starting with the Discovery and a bunch of other pcp’s that I modded and tuned.
I tryed some spring and nitro piston guns along the way and wasn’t really satisfied with their performance so I stuck with the pcp’s till I got my HW50s. I didn’t really want to mess with it. i wanted to leave it in factory condition. But Buldawg sent me a video of the TX being taken apart and tuned and it was all over after that. I started playing around with different combinations of springs,shims and rubber washers, sleeves and spring lengths and I ended up with the smoothest quietest springer I have shot. It seriously falls into pcp smooth territory. I’m actually most happy and surprised at how well it turned out.
As far as working on other peoples guns its no. It was like that with the race car building also. I will help somebody or show them what I did but I wont work on somebody elses things. Now as for as machining something for somebody I will do it as long as its nothing to do with a hpa fitting. Sorry
Gunfun
I was searching the net last night and came across these cheek rest that a guy has modified to fit the stocks on the 22xx and 13xx guns with the 1399 stocks and give them a cool looking cheek rest for improved accuracy and hold stability.
This is the link to them on ebay or you can go to ATI itself but they are cheaper on ebay.
Here is a picture of one installed and he sais he cuts the lower fastener part off and drills the stock and the cheek rest and uses roll pins to hold it to stock. I am going order two for my 22340s.
Tell me what you think.
BD
Buldawg
Yep that’s pretty cool and not a bad price.
Gunfun
I thought they would help with aiming the 2240s with the 1399 stocks and like you said not to bad of a price. They are originally for the SKS rifles with the folding stocks on them but it fits nicely in the picture he had on his site on the 1399 stocks.
BD
Gunfuin
I forgot that they have some storage room inside of them also.
BD
Buldawg
That’s even more cool that it has the storage area.
Maybe could be enough room to put some pellets in a little container or a Allen wrench to adjust power setting.
I like it. 🙂
Gunfun
Yea I am not sure how much room is in there but it looks to be enough to put the allen for power adjustments and some emergency pellets or an oily rag to wipe the gun down if out in damp weather.
I have a message to the seller on ebay about buying two for my 2240s so when he gets back to me and I can get them ordered we will know how much storage they have. I do thin k they will help with consistent cheek placement when shooting so for 12 bucks I am going to give them a try.
BD
Buldawg
I’m sure it will help with cheek placement.
Crosman sure didn’t get that right with the 1399 stock that’s for sure.
Gunfun
You got that right as I don’t think they even considered it when they designed the 1399 stocks as I think they were for making a pistol easier to aim with and not so much as for a full time rifle setup.
I will know soon enough when I can get them and my tubes back and will be able to shoot and tune the guns. Hopefully I will hear something from Lloyd soon.
BD
Buldawg
No word from Lloyd yet.
Well I can say its probably worth the wait. Lloyd does good work. That aluminum dual tube kit he made me for my gen1 Marauder turned out really nice.
I think you will be happy with your 2240 tubes when he gets them done.
Gunfun
I am anxious but at the same time I don’t want to rush him either as he will email me when he has them done and I know he is doing a very good job on them so I will not have the issues I had with the hipacs at first.
I told him that if tit took till after the holidays that would be ok so I know how hectic everything is this time of year and it will also give me time to get the money for them up also so when he is done with them he will let me know.
He may even be studying them to make a new product of his own which is fine with me and actually I think there would be a market for a better quality product for the 2240s than what hipac did to sell as they were not very well designed in my opinion. but then I am anal when it comes to something being made correctly the first time. that’s why Lloyd is doing the work for me now as I believe he is the same way.
BD
Gunfun,
I’ll be interested in seeing how the HW50S responds to a tune. Mine is shooting very calm right out of the box. Been too gusty to shoot the last few days but Wednesday I shot a .327″ group with 4.52mm AA Diabolo Field pellets. I want to shoot them some more but so far this seems to be the best pellet for my HW50S even better than the AA Falcon. I know you like the 10.34 JSB pellets have you shot these? They come in both 4.52mm and 4.51mm both have the same label on the tin now so you need to check the sticker on the back for head size.
David
David
Here is the pellets that I do have tried in my .177 cal. springer’s and other guns. the first one I list is basically the same pellet as the JSB 10.34. It has given me the best result even in windy conditions. The lighter pellets seem to get blown around especially as the distance increases. And again this is in the guns I have used them in.
/product/air-arms-field-heavy-177-cal-4-52mm-10-34-grains-domed-500ct?p=713
/product/air-arms-diabolo-field-177-cal-4-51mm-8-44-grains-domed-500ct?p=715
/product/air-arms-diabolo-field-177-cal-4-52mm-8-44-grains-domed-500ct?p=578
/product/air-arms-falcon-177-cal-4-52mm-7-33-grains-domed-500ct?p=714
And this is something that got me. I shot nitro and spring guns and magnum springer’s while I was shooting my pcp air guns also. When I got the HW50s it was probably the smoothest spring gun I shot besides my Diana 54 Air King and of course that gun is in a different catagory with it s recoil reduction design.
But then came the TX and the LGU and then the tune on the TX and now the HW50s doesn’t feel like the smooth quiet gun that I thought it was. The 460 you have is a magnum springer in today’s standards. All I can say is my TX does not move or make sounds when it shoots. If you closed your eyes and I handed you the TX and told you to keep your eyes closed and pull the trigger I bet you would think its a pcp shooting. And I know it sounds like I’m over exaggerating the TX but it really is that good now. And yes It shoots the JSB 10.34’s the best also.
Gunfun,
With the exception of the 4.51mm AA pellets I have doubles on all of those (JAB labeled & AA labeled) and they seem to shoot better than any other pellets I have tried. Prior to B.B. starting the premmo vs cheapo pellet testing I was a big fan of H&N pellets but I got some JAB and AA Falcons to try in the HW50S since it was the closest to his test bed rifle and wow.
The 460 is a different beast than either the TX or LGU and requires more technique vs the HW50S but it also favors the JAB/AA pellets just not the 7.33gr versions.
David
And here’s something I have seen before is two same caliber guns and same exact gun each like a different pellet.
I think there are to many variables in the process of making a gun that could throw the one specific pellet is the best.
Maybe there is a pellet that works best in multiple guns but certain pellets will work better than others at different distances also. So its pretty hard to really determine one as the best. You just have to keep trying different ones and shoot them in different conditions and distances and find what works best with your particular guns set up. That’s the best I can say.
Gunfun,
True, true. My Air Hawk loves H&N pellets and my Gamo Recon Whisper likes wally world 7.90 Crosman Premier pellets in the tin. Just spotted a new kid on the block, Coal Fenix FX 450 Pellets they look interesting. Weight falls between the 10.34gr and 8.44 AA pellets at 9.57gr and they have an interesting shape to the head. Just ordered some should be here Monday.
David
David
I will have to search those pellets. I’m always intersted in new pellets.
And the interesting shape got my attension.
For sure let me know what you think about them when you get them.
Gunfun,
Here is the link to them on Pyramyd’s web sight
/product/coal-fenix-fx-450-pellets-177-cal-9-57-grains-domed-500ct?p=1176
David
David
I just looked at them and read the description.
Could be interesting and the price was good. Well again we will know soon as you get yours and try them.
They also have them in .22. They are both light enough to be fast, but heavy enough to hunt with and cheap enough to give them a try.
Interesting pellet and the “science” of putting the weight up front is well known in aircraft design (nose heavy) for stability. RR, if you or the others here purchase a tin or two, I would love to see how they fare in your collection.
Fred DPRoNJ
I just checked em out and interesting is right, but effective as far is penetrating and expanding in a two stage way. Hopefullyttheytheyaareare consistent because those different angles always seem to give opportunity for defect in complicated pellets.
RR
I’m thinking of these more for the 460 Magnum. I think the 8.44gr AA Diabolo Field are the pellet for my HW50S but are a tad light for the 460 Magnum. I got maxium energy with the 9.26gr H&N Crow Magnum but they didn’t group well in that gun. So these pellets should be here by Tuesday I’ll let you guys know how they do in my guns.
David
Off-Topic but could use a little help and it was suggested that I post again.
DAISY POWERLINE 880
I have an older Daisy Powerline 880, All metal except grips and had the foam washer fail. Replaced the foam washer and now reassembling everything.The pump-tube and chamber-valve-seat and pump don’t seem to be installed correctly. The pump tube wants to slide out when I try and pump it up. No pressure being built, I’ve looked at the videos on Youtube and they all seem to be for the newer models which have a different pressure tube, pump seat, etc. Any help appreciated.
Greg,
Both your posts ended up in the spam folder. I posted this one for you and got rid of the other, which was very similar. Now you are exposed to over 50,000 readers.
Can anyone help Greg with his Daisy 880?
B.B.
I am enjoying these reports on the Diana 45. My 45 is dated May 1984. I bought it new out of shot gun news in about 1986 so it had been setting in inventory for a while. Until early this year when I found your blog BB there had been no maintenance on it. It has been shot quite a lot over the years. I scoped it last year, that went poorly as I mentioned before. I learned about barrel droop and spring gun recoil and got set up properly. The gun did much better scoped with a utg scope and compensating mount however it never shot as good as with the peep sight. I got a syn rod last spring and the scope moved to it. I also got a chrony with the syn rod because of the lessons learned here in this blog. Back to the 45 now, before chamber oil it shot around 725 fps with Crossman Premier 7.9gn boxed pellets and with chamber oil it shoots at about 795 fps. Quite an improvement. I read in the blogs about a buzz that you feel or maybe hear and I don’t pick up on any of that so I am not sure what you are referring to. This 45 and my P1 are the only spring guns I have ever shot and I don’t pick up on any thing but the recoil which is a sharp jolt when shot. Until I shot the syn rod i would not have considered the gun to have recoil but I have learned otherwise. Maybe ignorance is bliss regarding the buzz. The Diana has some other history. Years ago the barrel got bent to the left, I suspect it was sat upon while on a sofa or bed by a family member. Do you throw away your air gun with a bent barrel? I figured there was nothing to loose so I bent it back and shot it. I could not pick up any difference! I had not done bench testing in those days. The gun shoots a 1 1/4 inch group at 25 yards with the peep sight and factory front pointed post. It still shoots that group with the peep sight. When I put the utg scope on it I shot narrow tall groups 3/4″ wide by 2.25″ tall groups. I used the droop compensating mount, but maybe with the barrel bending that has gone on the barrel does not have as much droop? I am definitely not done playing with it. It knocks the disks down smartly:) I am looking foreword to the rest of these reports.
Mark
Yes you can bend airgun barrels to correct problems, as you found for yourself.
B.B. once did a blog for correcting the bend that occurs in a break barrel if you accidentally pull the trigger while it’s open and the barrel snaps shut. This creates the opposite of barrel droop, raising the point of impact. B.B. used a c-clamp and a couple of pieces of lumber to perform the bend.
Just last week, I used this technique to correct a bend in my old R1’s barrel. Thanks B.B.!
Feinwerk,
Hurray! It still works! 😉
B.B.
B.B.,
I bought that .20 R1 Laser from Beeman somewhere around 1988 I think. Its got the special laserised button on the left side of the stock. I could not shoot it accurately to save my life! After saving up and buying it, I thought it would put my fwb 124 to shame….. I remember being so frustrated with it. I remember gripping it tighter and tighter, and it got worse and worse as you can imagine. Into the closet for storage it went until 2011 when I discovered your blog, and the article about the artillery hold. Wow, what a transformation!! I built a spring compressor, put a Maccari spring and seal in it, Moly lube, new breech seal. All inspired by your articles. Now, I’ve corrected the barrel bend, thoroughly swabbed the bore, and can make small groups consistently.
See, you really do make a difference, B.B. and I’m sure there are far many more people you’ve helped enjoy this hobby than just those who write back to tell you.
Merry Christmas Tom and Edith, I’ve already received my present!
Feinwerk,
That’s the way I like stories to end. Good work!
B.B.
Feinwerk,
Good story about the R1.
You’re so right. Tom & Edith have helped many folks with the airgun hobby. I’m one of them.
My wallet is much lighter now and so much easier to carry.
kevin
So no more back problems for those of us who have been “rescued” I’d say that’s well worth the trade off.
🙂
Fred
DPRoNJ
Kevin,
You’re welcome. I’m referring to lightening your wallet for easy carry! 🙂
Edith
Edith,
🙂
We’re leaving tomorrow for the cabin. Spending Christmas at 10,000 feet has become a family tradition. Limited access to the outside world is delicious.
For this reason, This is my last chance to wish you a very Merry Christmas. Hope you can make time to relax and enjoy a moment or two. Blessings,
Kevin
Kevin,
Merry Christmas!
One of Tom’s sisters flew in yesterday, his other sister + my brother and his wife and her adult daughter are arriving today (and their poodle). A full house of laughter, love, food, drink and celebration.
Edith
I bought a utg drooper mount for my rws 45 and it proved to be unusable.
There is almost no droop in my rifle. I suspect foot lbs in mine are higher than the rifle b b is testing only because it seems to hit as hard as my other “magnums” a steel food can is completely passed through at 75 yds. Still it’s no hot rod, but it isn’t hold sensitive either. Gotta love that long crossbow lever type trigger. It’s brutish looks are unique and grew on me.
I had the same experience with the UTG Dooper base on my 45.
Tabrown,
I am listening to you guys about this. Fortunately, Leapers does make a scope base that has no slant, and still clears the big-headed screw at the back of the Diana base. So maybe I will use that when I scope this rifle.
B.B.
B.B.
Installation instructions for the RWS Lock Down Mount, their answer to the Leapers droop mount tell you to remove the big-headed screw. That screw is not strong enough function as a scope stop I’m not even sure just why Leapers chose to fabricate the mount with the cut out for the screw.
David
David,
The cutout was my idea. It protected the big-headed screw from damage. Sure, you can tell a person to take it out, but some people are anal about their airguns and don’t want to do anything that changes them in any way.
B.B.
B.B.
Tell me about that, I was like what am I going to do with this screw and what if I forget where I put the thing when I had the RWS Lock Down on my gun. Glad to hear I’m not the only nutcase in the air gun world. lol
Thanks for the cut out on the DN460, now I don’t have to worry about loosing or breaking the big screw on my 460 Magnum
David
David
I thought you could use a droop comp mount flat out if you had no droop, then use it for adjustments for range without having to change scope zero. Is it compensating in its lowest position as well? Will screw you up if there’s no droop?
RDNA,
Huh?
B.B.
Gunfun answered when he said its a solid angled mount and not an adjustable one. I was thinking the adjustable kind of mount, not just the drooper. Would you say adjustable mounts are worth while?
RDNA,
They are if they hold zero. When I tested the BKL adjustable mount, it did hold zero. And the older B-Square mounts held, as well. But I haven’t test that many kinds of adjustables to answer more fully than that.
B.B.
No, that’s perfect, Good place to start for checking em out, thanks.
RDNA
Go on Pyramyd AIR home page and search UTG droop mount for a Diana.
Its a solid mount that attaches to the guns dove tail grooves then you mount your scope rings to it. The UTG mount is made on angle so that you basically match the barrels droop.
Your getting the scope centerline parallel with the barrel centerline.
Santa brought a chrony.
Here is how my rws did with an 8 shot average
Cpls boxed 793.6 fps
Hn ftt 763 fps
Rws super domes 800 fps
By my Calc it’s an 11-12 ft lb rifle.
Really looking forward to how you smooth these models up!
Mine is buzzy and crunchy. I have given it a good dose of chamber lube and let it sit a long while. The thing does smoke each shot.
Mark,
Wow! Your velocities were nearly the same as mine, before and after oiling! How reassuring!
I’m like you. I stayed away from the 45 until now, so we will both be learning together on this.
B.B.
B.B.,
I am continuing to enjoy this series and I am looking forward to the next part. My model 45 does have a “buzz” or “twang” for a short time period during the shot cycle. It gets a periodic lube in the compression chamber with RWS chamber oil also but, as you know, that does not address the buzz. My spring gun experience is limited as I really only have much time shooting the model 45 and my 1990 vintage RWS Diana model 52 that I bought last spring. I have owned the model 45 for about 7 years. I wanted to get my 1st PCP next but now I wonder if I should get a Beeman R9 or a TX200 or a Walther LGV or, or, or……. to experience the differences that you write about Thanks for the blog.
Tabrown,
Oiling the chamber will never get rid of the twang. That lives back in the spring tube and is the slop of the piston, spring and spring guide. I hope I can quiet this one as much as possible.
B.B.
B.B.,
I’d be interested in learning how to harden the trigger parts. Seems like voodoo to me but I know that some of the top tuners will harden trigger parts when necessary. I understand the risks and why you would probably rather not “go there” though.
Mark N
Mark,
There are products you can use as a home tuner to harden low-carbon steel. The one that comes to mind is Kasenit. But it’s about a half-century old and I couldn’t find it when I searched. But here is something Midway sells:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/119479/cherry-red-surface-hardening-compound-1-lb
B.B.
Cool thanks. Looks simple enough!
Mark N
BB,
Low carbon steel cannot be harden without having more carbons added to the steel.
Do you know what material the Rekord trigger and the TX trigger is from?
Joe,
I believe both are aluminum. Of course the sears are steel and probably at least case-hardened if not high-carbon steel.
B.B.
That’s where the oil burn hardening comes it right? Coat in oil, blowtorch burn it and pink it then cold dip. Fusions more carbon on the surface and gives a nice black coating.
RDNA
We do a light case hardening on stuff at work sometimes like you say but we heat it cherry red before we dip it in the oil.
Also if we are serious about hardening steel at work we have a oven that is specifically designed for that.
And we even have a piece of equipment to test how hard metal is. We have to use it on sample pieces that we cut off of incoming material to make sure the parts we machine is the right hardness that the customer specifies.
The tester is a hydraulic press with a ball bearing tip, right? The pressure it takes to push a standardized ball in to a certain depth gives you the hardness score. Are the results in Rockwell or something else? I know there’s a couple different names for the hardness scale.
RDNA
Yep that’s exactly what it is. And it does measure in Rockwell hardness.
We just call it the Rockwell tester at work. I imagine it has a brand name on it but I never paid attention to that.
Good Day B.B.,
I am writing this as a Friday aside. This is a true testament to just how influential you have been on me in the first couple of years since I took up air guns. I was looking at the items you listed in the Tom Gaylord’s Top Gift Ideas in the ad at the top right of this page when a thought occurred to me. I counted how many of the items I owned. As it turns out I have 29 of the 43 items listed. I bought them all based on your testing and/or recommendations. That my friend is true influence. I thank you for leading me accurately during these first few years of development. You have been a Godsend and have helped me to advance much more rapidly with my shooting skills than I otherwise would have.
G&G
Guitars & Guns,
I’m so pleased that you liked my choices. I try to think about new shooters when I recommend items, knowing how I felt whenever I found something especially nice.
B.B.
B.B. and Friends,
It’s official now. As many of you know, I shoot in a local club which is a member of the United States Air Rifle Benchrest organization. Right now we are in the final 2013-2014 season for competitive shooting. Our club had a shoot this past weekend. As is normal with the USARB I shot three targets with 25 bullseye ea. The maximum score for each target is 250 points and 25 X’s. (An X is when you obliterate the ten ring such that no ring line is visible). Well, my results from Saturday were just posted on the USARB website. Here they are : (250, 8X) (250, 13X) (250, 8X). Aggregate Score 750, 29X. Right now that is the highest score for the Outdoor Heavy Varmint Division. Believe me, there are some big names on that list.
I apologize for what is outright self promotion. Thank you for indulging me in this but I am very proud right now. (By the way, these kinds of scores for me are not unusual).
G&G
G&G
That is way cool. 🙂
And here is the big questions. What gun and what pellet?
G&G,
That’s not self-promotion. That bragging rights that you have earned. When you get to be a world champion -leas don’t forget us little people?
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it, especially coming from you. The world (probably hell too) will be a cold, cold place before I’m a bigger man than you in this sport. As I said earlier your influence has been tremendous. Your basically a mentor in absentia.
G&G
No need to apologize, you shot very well, congratulations for a job well done.
GG – Don’t see your post as self promotion. Thanks for sharing that you are having fun! That is what target shooting is supposed to be about.
Herb,
Thank you. I am having tremendous fun. I absolutely love this sport. My reason for sharing this was simply to show that. Along with my enthusiasm.
G&G
B.B. and Friends,
I made a mistake about which season we are in. This is now the First Half of the 2014-2015 Season.
G&G
GunFun1,
The rifle is the Rapid Air Weapons TM1000, .20cal., in a laminated wood benchrest style stock(see the BM500). The pellets it likes are the JSB Exacts, as I said, .20cal. 13.73gr. Yea, it is cool ain’t it. I am having a blast. I do have the goals of shooting in a regional and eventually national competition. Steve Smith at Wild West Airguns (the rifle was his personal benchrest gun before he sold it to me) thinks I should already be planning for the Nationals. I don’t know, we’ll see. I think I have to qualify first. I’m not certain exactly how that works.
Merry Christmas,
G&G
Just wondering,, at what distance are you shooting. And what is the target designation. I would love to find a club near me that is affiliated.
Edlee,
The distance I shot at Saturday was 25 meters. We also shoot at 50 yds. But I’m concentrating on 25 meters until I have about 6 sets of targets shot. I’m not sure what you mean by designation but we use the official USARB Targets. As I said, there are twenty five bullseye per target. The outside diameter of the six ring is 1″. The ten ring is app. 1/16″.
G&G
G&G
G&G
Cool gun. And I go to the local range and shoot here and there. Its definitely different than shooting at home or somebody’s house. You got to cross your t’s and dot your i’s when your at them places shooting.
So does all the extra attention around you make it more difficult to concentrate when your shooting at the match or do you just block everything else out. That’s what I have been finding mysrlf do when I’m at the range shooting. And of course I mean when I’m taking the shot.
GunFun1,
Fortunately, I have very strong concentration, including between shots. When I’m shooting the world just fades away. Remember, you have a twenty minute time limit so there’s not much time to look at anything else anyway. Last month was the first time I shot with a time limit. I didn’t have a clue how to pace myself. I ended up finishing in 13 minutes (stupid). I didn’t shoot particularly well but good enough to win anyway.
G&G
G&G
G&G
Yep I have never ever made a good shot if it was a rushed shot no matter what I was shooting at.
Although I did have fun fast shooting steel spinners placed at various places in the yard with that FX Monsoon.
But again glad to hear your doing good. Do keep updating us and maybe you can start giving out some of your secret techniques. 🙂
GunFun1,
Actually, I could tell you the things I have found to be most important. As I progress I remember the things I had to focus on as they came up (and continue to come up). Some of them are specific to me yet maybe they would apply to others as well. But keep in mind I haven’t won any trophy’s yet. Plus, if I said anything that might lead someone astray I would depend on B.B. to point it out. I’m fairly thick skinned.
G&G
G&G
I think it would tell somethings about your shooting. Its obviously working for you and any info to help improve is always a good thing. Different people will pull in the information to help with the circumstances.
Any info is always appreciated.
GG,
first off, GREAT SHOOTING! That result is phenomenal. Second, I shoot 25 yard Bullseye (.22 rimfire) and as most know, the first stage, Slow Fire, is 10 rounds in 10 minutes and this is always the worst score for everyone. Quite a few participants in the league will shoot their 10 rounds in under a minute and get better results. I’m no expert here (my Slow Fire score is always my worst score but my Timed and Rapid Fire scores are nothing to write home about either ) but I would keep on doing what you are doing and not worry about taking more time.
Fred DPRoNJ
Fred DPRoNJ,
Thank you very much. Regarding time, what I have learned in the last month is that if I simply shoot at my normal pace I will be within the 20 minute time allotment. I’m sure whoever chose the 20 minutes did not do so arbitrarily and that’s why it works out the way it does for me.
G&G
As they always say in actions of the mind and body, slow is smooth, smooth is fast.. great shooting, what region are you in?
RifledDNA,
I live in Jacksonville, Fla. which is northeast Florida. The club I belong to is North Fl. Shooters, Airgunners LTD. If anyone is interested in joining please look up Al’s phone no. on the USARB Website. Thanks by the way.
G&G
I had a buddy in high school that always raved about the outdoor sporting activities there, hunting fishing etc glad to hear they have such an official air gunning sect as well. Do you do the normal regional to national competition like that? And happen ti know where nationals are going to be? In gonna go search what’s in mass but I don’t think there’s much.
RifledDNA,
To date our club has not participated in sanctioned competitions yet but we plan to start this year. Our first out of town shoot with another club is in January near Tampa. I am really looking forward to that. Steve Smith told me where Nationals are but I can’t remember at this moment.
Yes, outdoor activities are huge here. Even my daughter has gone deer hunting. She got her first one last year. I love deep sea fishing but I haven’t gone in awhile. I am pretty focused on airguns right now.
G&G
Found the holbrook ma sportsmans club usarb affiliated.. hopefully that’s not too far.
Thank you G&G. I googled the name and got a lot of info,, but not about the measurements of the targets and bulls. When I mentioned designation,, it was to see if the targets were available from the places I buy mine. I shoot ( or did shoot) a lot of 3P and 4P matches both NRA and ISSF . Both govern both airgun and firearms matches. We use A-5 and A5/10 targets for the airgun at ten meters. Other targets are used for the rimfire and for high power. Fro what I read on your website,, your organization has designed it’s own targets and sells them to the individual clubs at cost. I think that once your organization becomes more widespread, the target makers will pick up on them.
On the ones we use,, the 10 is a one millimeter dot,, then the space between each scoring line is “about” 3 millimeter. We don’t get any Xs. In fact,, now we have started using an electronic scorer,, so the top score on a ten target sheet, could be as high as 109 because it actually scores up to 10.9 on each bull. ( I hope I explained it)
Edlee,
The targets actually come from the World Rimfire and Air Rifle Benchrest Federation. We use their guidelines for shooting rules and regulations. We also use their guidelines for Indoor and Outdoor Light and Heavy Varmint Classes. The USARB has then created several other classes for airguns of varying power plant, power, caliber, electronics and weight. I am familiar with the “A” designations for targets but have not used them officially. I need to become more familiar with the history of competitive airgun shooting and the development, affiliation and growth of the organizations that govern it. If anyone knows of any good books , magazines or videos about this please let me know what they are and how I can get them.
I understood your explanation of your targets. Of course yours are smaller than the ones we use simply because you appear to be shooting at ten meters. Am I correct about that? Our 50 yard targets are slightly bigger than our 25 meter targets also. I hope you are able to find a club to shoot in. It has made a world of difference for me.
G&G
I believe, but I’m not sure, that we use electronic scoring also.
I’ll have to weigh in later on the Diana 45, but I wanted to share the moment that my friend Lauren just got her IZH 61 for Christmas and she freaked out! Heh, heh, was that cool or what! On top of everything else, the gun might make her rich now that it’s embargoed. And the fun is not over as a Leapers Bug Buster scope is on the way. I bet she, like most of the outside world, has never heard of a scope that adjusts down to 3 feet bringing the joys of long-distance shooting into your home. Sad to say the PA customer service left a little bit to be desired with the rather rude person who processed my order over the phone. He garbled Lauren’s name, and when I asked him to repeat it, he said “L-A-U-R-E-N, a female name any way you want to say it!” ??? Let’s just say that it compares poorly with Ming Qian and the outstanding, courteous service from Leapers. Ah well, I’m reminded of a gigantic mafioso from a novel I was reading. Working the slide of his handgun, he says, “You know what my biggest problem is? Finding good help.”
Anyway, none of this dampens the joy of the Christmas season in sharing cool airguns! Thanks B.B. for making all this possible from years ago.
Matt61
RE: PA customer service
Wonder if they hire extra (untrained and poorly vetted) help over holidays? I haven’t ordered anything recently, but never had anyone be rude. Can’t image that rude sales help would last there long.
Maybe so. This was an aberration. Generally, the phone service is quite good.
Matt61
Now that is one wild looking design! (IZH61)
The Bugbuster scope has my interest from the stand point that I am researching scopes now.
Focus down to 3ft., really? Not really sure why I would want that, but interesting none the less. I shoot at 24ft. in my living room, but looking to plug some ground hogs at around 75′.
Isn’t it neat?! Someone described it as the “rear” end of a spaceship. An acquired taste I suppose. 🙂 I made a mistake. I meant to say 3 yards, not 3 feet for the BugBuster scope. This makes possible shooting in my 5 yard airgun range. I suppose that it would also literally make possible the advertised function of bug-busting which some people have done although I have not. With it’s 9X magnification, the scope will certainly work at 75′.
Matt61
Matt61,
You don’t have to be a kid to be thrilled by the IZH61. I love mine. When I just want to have fun with a springer I shoot my IZH61 about half the time.
G&G
G & G,
I need to chat a bit with you about this FWB. Email me at burke93attdsdotnet.
RidgeRunner,
I will write to you in the next day or so. Thanks.
G&G
Ha, fellow enthusiast! I feel sure that much of the fun is due to the clip which can churn out the shots faster. And it was one of my big surprises, when I finally shot an M4, which I was not well-disposed towards, to find that it felt almost identical to my IZH 61. I’m so pleased that they are still in stock at PA, and that Saiga rifles are still available elsewhere.
Matt61
All Diana 45’s of this vintage have a leather cup seal.
I’m not certain if there is an “export” spring for this rifle, but in UK spec it would produce a consistent 11.5 ft/lbs in 177, so 10-15% of the ponies have escaped the corral in the last quarter of a century or so, which isn’t bad, a good soak of the piston seal, a new breech seal and spring will see them back quite happily….if we are doing a ghetto lube tune, then a piston seal soak and maybe a shim under the breech seal should get her into the high tens or low elevens, shimming the inside of the piston with plastic from a Sunny D bottle and some Gorilla glue will banish the boing
“ghetto lube tune”, ” Sunny D” plastic, “Gorilla glue”,…….I love it!!!
New to air guns and not having torn down my first one yet, you sound like me in the manner that once you understand something and see what the “bought parts” look like, you choose to make your own. With the right skills, I have learned, you can often make and/or modify things better that what you can buy. 🙂
I got a long way to go to get “there”, but I love your style! In the the mean time, I will stick to reading, understanding and factory parts.
Chris,USA
You just made me think of something. Its good to learn the way the the guns shoot from the factory and how to hold them when you shoot.
Then when it comes time to learn how to make the gun shoot better after the tune job you will appreciate the gun even more.
I forgot why I really like modding a gun or anything else for that fact. Its to make it to be what you want it to be. It actually makes that object easier to use than how it was when you got it.
Its cool to see the results of before and after. I just wish right now I had a way to document the improvement of the feel of how the gun shoots before and after a tune or mod. Well that’s what a tune is ain’t it.A mod.
I documented a lot of results while shooting air guns but I haven’t documented the feel of a tuned air gun yet to compare to at a later time.
Well maybe I have if I hang on to a few certain guns I have.
After modding for quite awhile you’ll find your drawers find new purpose, one drawer for random rubber washers is a must.
I haven’t thrown a small part or tinker piece away in over a year, just when I move. Every time one tiny thing gets tossed its less then a week and I need that exact thing. Every time.
Honestly Chris, once the principles are understood, and you realise that closing the tolerances up a bit and better lubrication is all you are trying to achieve, there’s nothing magical about spring gun tuning in the basic sense…..my preferred method is using the plastic from a washing up liquid bottle and Araldite….but I wasn’t sure how your products come in the US so chose two broadly similar products, when you sleeve the onside of the piston, leave a slot (cut it after it’s dried) for the cocking shoe, cut a wrap for the guide, glue and clamp in place with hose clips overnight, then give it a good polish with 00 grade wire wool, when you assemble, a light smear of molykote inside the piston and on the guide is fine, I don’t tar my spring particularly, I’d rather engineer the movement to a minimum with plastic shimming than try to damp it with goo.
Another ghetto tip is a simple steel washer at each end of the spring, polished (along with the spring ends) to a dull shine with the same wire wool and given a smear of moly both sides.
If you want to you can spray Dri Slide or other PTFE spray down the degreased tube and then with a drill/dowel/cloth arrangement linish it into the surface, or use Slick 50 or STP engine protect and linish it into the surface with a heat gun and lots of polishing (though you will have to degrease after the automotive products)
Basically, what I’m trying to say is you can pretty much tune a spring gun with half empty bottles of stuff from the garage……most tuning kits consist of a couple of washers, fatter plastic guides and plastic or steel piston shims…..and some lubricants infused with a ton of snake oil.
Dom
What you talked about is a basic tune. But I wonder if a reader actually knows what those componants do in a tune.
Any body can slap some geese on a spring or insulate the spring. Althat does is get rid of the vibration and noise.
What about recoil when your trying to smooth a gun out. What kind of components are used to reduce recoil and what is done to the piston. How about the piston seal what does that do to the shot cycle if different seals are used in a setup or combination.
And why would a person use different lubes on a spring. Is it to make the gun quiet or is it to accomplish less or more resistance to get a gun to fire at a certain speed.
What about spring legnth for preload. Do you want preload or can you get away with none or even have free play before the spring starts to compress.
There is more ways than one to do something. But learning why to do something is the trick. Then learning to do what needs to be dine to accomplish the results you want.
And Dom please don’t take this the wrong way I’m just trying to say that there is always more involved than what is seen on the surface. Anybody can get a Vortek kit and throw it in with some grease. But to change a guns firing characteristics; well there is more involved.
Dom
Maybe on your side of the pond you can get away with detergent bottles as noise buffers and petroleum oil lube jobs and any old grease that you so choose to put in your sub 12 fpe guns but over here we have high powered magnum guns that would rip the plastic detergent bottle noise buffers to pieces in a matter of 10 to 20 shots and the use of any type of petroleum oils inside the gun would be shooting a ticking time bomb as it would detonate to the point of exploding the gun in your hands
I think you need to rethink your advice you give to newcomers to this sport as even a few drops of silicone oil in the compression chambers of the spring guns in this country cause dieseling and over oiling with it can cause a detonations that will hurt someone if they are not aware of the heat of compression that our high powered spring guns develop when fired.
They are in essence a small diesel engine when fired and anything that is the slightest bit flammable will create a major explosion inside the gun that is right next to your face.
Your Ghetto tune, sunny d, gorilla glue tune job will only create more problems than the what the first time newcomer to air guns is counting on and may just turn away a potential future customer and avid air gun enthusiast much less getting some one seriously hurt in the process.
If tuning air guns was so easy then there would not be the need and multitude of quality tuners that make a good living from doing so and do so in a professional and safe manner for their customers.
BD
With the above, GunFun, yes, I just described a basic tune, one side effect of a proper lube and guide job is that it directs the force of the spring straight, often allowing you to reduce the preload….there’s lots of other elements….stroke and TP tuning, different style seals etc, but I didn’t want to write an essay.
And Buldawg, all tunes should end with the compression tube clean and dry, I never once advocated leaving oil in the tube abd made the point it would need to be degreased, it would otherwise, of course cause detonation.
Three out of four proprietry tune kits I have bought have come with a plastic square to be fitted inside the piston, normally to be trapped in place by the spring, a 25 ft lb rifle will no more chew it up than a 12 ft lb one unless fitted incorrectly, some kits come with a steel shim, but they don’t damp it adequately for my tastes, I prefer to adhere mine in anyway..as it takes away any chance of it buckling or interfering with the spring.
I also don’t subscribe to throwing ANY old oils in, the spring and guide I lubricate with a Moly loaded grease, whether you use MolyKote or CV boot automotive grease doesn’t matter, the point I was making is you don’t need to use a gun tuners “Wham-o-Matic” little pot of the same thing…to acheive the same thing.
I’m afraid, making a spring push a plastic sealed piston a couple of inches up a steel tube IS a simple principle, and opening the packing on most simple tune kits will show you you didn’t have to move far from your couch to find the same products for cents.
My Diana 52 currently has a plastic shampoo bottle plastic shim inside the piston, two rotation washers from the bottom of my toolbox (the guide was already quite tight), the tube was linished with a heat gun and teflon spray I used on a bicycle, all other lubrication was done with the crusty 1kg tin of Molykote I have left over from my crane engineering days, this allowed me to remove 2 coils from my spring and retain the same output…the rifle barely pulses in my hand.
First timers by all means buy a kit..learn, understand what you are trying to acheive…and what you have been supplied and why.
As I state above, once you have learnt the principles and objectives, for this sort of tune you don’t really need a kit.
At no point did I suggest filling your rifle with bits of plastic bottle randomly interspersed with wet mineral oils Buldawg 🙂
Dom
If you would have started the tune the way you just did here it would be much clearer to a first time newcomer to the sport when working with spring guns that petroleum oils can be dangerous inside the compression tube area and I understand you stated to degrease the parts but I feel that explanation as to why such thing are required much less critical would have also been in order to inform a newcomer to this sport about,
I to use left over special purpose slip yoke grease left over from my auto mechanic days as a lube on the springs and add shims or washers as needed to space the spring for more or less preload.
I just don’t think you stressed or explained well enough as to why to the compression chamber should be free and cleaned of flammable oils as a newcomer may not have fully under stood the consequences if not done so correctly.
I also don’t believe the using slick 50 or STP in the compression tube and heating it will have much if any effect on making the tube slippery as those products need more time than just a few minutes to be absorbed into the metals and only last a short time when used in engines anyway as they need replaced every oil change to continue to work correctly so that to me is wasted effort. There is no metal additive the will coat the metal permanently except some ceramic or Teflon coatings that need much more to bond with the metal permanently than some heating with a heat gun.
On the point of plastic being glued to the inside of the piston it may hold up for a good while but if the inner spring guide is made correctly then the tendency for the spring to try and buckle or bow when collapsed would be non existent as the inner guide will not allow that to take place and the plastic would not be needed.
It is sometimes hard to fully understand all the principles involved in tuning a spring gun without years of some sort of mechanical or industrial experiences of some sort so I am just trying to make newcomers aware of the dangers that can occur if certain procedures are not done correctly and me being as anal as I am and coming from years as a research and development mechanic there is never enough information that can be given in order for someone that can not actually see what you are doing or explaining to be able to fully understand all that you need them to know and understand. The more info I was able to give engineers in writing the easier it was for them to understand the issues we encountered and be able to come up with the correct service or repair procedures without ever having to see or lay a hand on the parts or parts involved in the failure.
So I was just stressing the importance of explaining everything as thoroughly as possible due to the fact that one cannot actually see what you are doing and may not fully understand the risks involved in attempting the task on their own.
BD
Dom
What I was trying to say mostly is that there is more to just slapping parts in and being done.
This is a example of when I messed with race cars. People would buy all these go fast parts for their engines and throw them in and wonder why the engine didn’t perform better.
Here is the reason why. They didn’t take the time to know about the parts they put in and if they would work together. That’s called getting the combination or setup right.
So that’s the reason I replied to your comment to Chris, USA I just wanted to make sure that it was known that there is more to a tune than just slapping stuff in.
And next time go ahead and write the essay. The more info shared the more we can learn. 😉
BD,
What Dom has recommended has been discussed on this blog for years. Milan, whom you may remember, called it a “beer can tune” and Americans have been doing it for decades. The power of the gun makes little difference. The materials aren’t harmed because they are pressed against the piston walls by the mainspring coils. This is a very old and well-established method of tuning a spring gun.
He called it a ghetto tune to differentiate it from making new parts on a lathe. You need to remember that it is impossible to convey emotion with words. So what a person writes isn’t always taken the way he meant it.
B.B.
B.B., Gunfun1, Dom, Buldawg76,…………Wow!,… I thought Sunday would be a slow day on the blog.
Thank you all and one for all the tips and wisdom you have shared.
I have been a mechanic most of my 50+ year old life. Mechanical aptitude , experience and understanding the how’s and whys of what your working on is key.
You can clearly read from the original post that I have no intention of of “blowing my self up” in the near future. 🙂 I respect mechanical things and PREFER to understand them prior to messing with them. On the other hand, I still have not lost that ” curious 8yr. old that tore his 1 week old bike down and put it all back together” either. 🙂
Thanks again guys!
Chris USA
That is even better that you are a mechanic as I was for 45 years till my health forced me to have to quit and it gives you a head start on a lot of newcomers to the hobby as you have the same mechanical curiosity that I had at 6 and 7 by taking thing apart and figuring out how they worked and putting them back together better than they were to start with and it is the same with air guns so take your time when disassembling and understand how everything interacts and work in unison to make a complete well tuned and shooting gun.
I was only trying to make certain points that I felt had not been made clear when it comes to spring guns and even PCP guns for that matter that you being a mechanic understand that a diesel runs by the heat of compression to ignite the fuel that is injected into the cylinder and as such a high powered spring gun has the same capabilities to ignite petroleum oils that may find their way into the compression chamber of the gun as well as PCP can to some extent do it also but not as easily. In working with spring guns as you are aware with coil springs in cars they store a lot of energy that can hurt you if not taken into consideration and the guns are capable of heating the air in the compression chamber to the temperatures that will ignite petroleum oils and if there is significant amount it can lead to not just dieseling but actual detonation and explosions.
So just wanted to make sure you are aware of the risks and safety precaution that you need to know to be safe and have an enjoyable experience with the great sport of air guns.
BD
Chris thanks.
And I know exactly what you mean about that 8 year old kid inside. I’m 53 I think. 🙂
And I have been a machinist for over 30 years now and I still can’t stop taking things apart.
And I think your going to love this air gun stuff.
Its definitely more complex then what I remember it to be when I was a kid. And I’m lov’n every minute of air gunning.
And depending on the topic Sunday’s can be just as buisy on the blog if not more than other days. And that’s a good thing. 🙂
So I know it’s not January 15 yet. I just have one question. I’m looking to purchase a new rifle for hunting rabbit and squirrel. Is the new rifle that you will be telling us if on the day before shot show something I should wait for before I make a purchase?
Pop,
Tell me how you came by your handle — Pop’s SLR.
B.B.
I inherited my Dad’s Theoben SLR 98…and with it…a new love for airguns, accuracy, and hunting.
Pop,
That’s what I thought. Any man who owns a Theoben 98 SLR has all the air rifle he needs for rabbit and squirrel.
Buy your gun.
B.B.
It’s for my buddy. He has a npxl .25 that is beyond his ken.
Now that I’m shooting my B30 again, I will confess to a real enjoyment of magnum power whatever reasons we might come up to dismiss it. There is something about that powerful impact. It also just seems to be very flat-shooting, and the accuracy certainly helps.
I noticed the difference between my Savage in .223 and my Anschutz in .22LR. The Savage was the superior rifle at 100 yards. So the Anschutz’s prowess is within that distance. It makes you think that rimfire is really a transitional round whose effective range is not much different from airguns. I also noticed the different impact of the .223. Branches that I shot in the berm went cartwheeling away whereas they would have just jerked with the .22LR.
Matt61
Matt61
Ain’t mass and energy cool.
A Savage in .223?
Many moons ago when I was in my late teens and early twenties, I had a Savage Springfield bolt action chambered in .223 with a Tasco 3-9 scope. It was a relatively cheap model and Dad and I reworked the stock and made it slimmer and lighter. We did not glass bed it, but we did free float the barrel. With our anal hand loads it would shoot sub MOA all day long out to 150 yards with an almost flat trajectory. I quite literally flipped a deer in the air with a head shot at over 250 yards with it.
Now as far as the .22LR being a transitional round, I would have to disagree. You really do not want to shoot a rabbit, squirrel of dove with a .223. In reality, you probably do not want to use the hypervelocity .22LR rounds either. They can do a lot of damage to a small critter IF you do hit it. I strongly suspect they are too fast for the twist rate in most .22 rimfire rifles.
Once again when I was young, I took the hunter safety course in school and they informed us that though it is illegal to hunt deer with a .23 or smaller rifle, more deer have been killed with the .22LR than any other cartridge in the world. I have taken a few myself.
“What good is 500+FPE if you can’t hit what you are shooting at?”
This is all a good explanation for magnum airguns, it a deer can be killed with a 22 or those calibers just over it, why does anyone need to hunt deer with a 30-06 or slug out of a shotgun? Its a larger margin for error and obviously more instant and powerful of an event. Like a field tip mo longer ever being used for deer in archery but modern broadheads weren’t always around, and modern bowhunters didn’t flint out their own, there must have been a time that solid points were hunted with, and they worked but of course your gonna want a broadhead. Perfect example is the last roof chewing squirrel from my friends house, he was so close that i overestimated the hold over and hit him in the top shoulder/back. If I had been using the 177 he would have been gone, but the more powerful 22 gave him a fatal wound and he was not going anywhere.
If you get the right combo of powder, primer, and bullet, that Savage will shoot 1/4 inch or less at 100 yds. Win. 748, Hodgden CFE & Varget are good powders to try.
Mike
BB,
I see that Air Venturi has brought out a line of .177 pellets and that they are made in Germany. Would you happen to know who is manufacturing them?
/product/air-venturi-pellets-177-cal-7-48-grains-wadcutter-250ct?p=1137
/product/air-venturi-pellets-177-cal-8-64-grains-pointed-250ct?p=1135
/product/air-venturi-pellets-177-cal-8-18-grains-domed-250ct?p=1136
RR,
No, I don’t. But from the low price and the appearance of the pellets in the picture, I would guess that it’s not H&N. They haven’t told me anything about these pellets.
B.B.
BB,
I did not think so either. For a brief moment I thought they might be RWS, but they are shaped differently than their offerings. It could be the company is located on the eastern side of Germany.
PA has also just started carrying some pellets from Coal out of Slovenia. It is starting to look like we are going to have a bunch of new pellets to test.
RR
Darn and I thought I already found my magic pellets fot my air gun’s.
😉
And Pa.Oldman mentioned the pellets made by Coal up above. Slovenia well that’s interesting. The JSB’s are from Checkloslovakia if I’m remembering right.
Maybe the new pellets will be good although when I looked at the picture of them on the Pyramyd AIR page they looked a little ruff around the edges but you never know. Will see what Pa.Oldman says about them. I believe he said Monday he is getting his.
Sometimes your`re lucky!
Went tot my german gunsmith today. He had this Nice Anschutz cast alloy frame match diopter. Its the one witch they mounted on the Anschutz 64. He sold it tot me for only 20 euro`s! This one looks like new. Its worth at least 8 times more.
The diopter has found a new home… The receiver of my .22 hw80.
My hw85 got the diopter that came off my hw80. I dont have tot switch diopters anymore.
Great score! Hoping to run into a top shelf bipod in the same good deal price range.
Anybody remember crosman “lubricated super pells” in a red and black square tin? Wadcutter with a stepped/ribbed head? They are oldy moldys, found em at the flea market in a box of junk for a quarter!
There’s about a dozen left in the tin, needless to say, they are definitely not lubricated anymore!
The original price sticker says 99c for 250 pellets. Wonder what year they’re from, look 70s or early 80s
/blog/2008/02/crosman-pellets-they-werent-always-premiers/
I got some very old .22 rocket pellets. They are packed in a plastic container. The container looks like a childs toy, cos the container is a rocket. On top, the rockets round ‘nucliair’ head, you can screw the head, so there is an opening out of witch you can drop some pellets out.
It says: made in England, armour piercing pellets.
They look like the gamo pellets. The collector who gave them to me said the pellets were very old….. and should be a collectors item by now.
Does anyone have some info about these pellets?
Dutchjozef,
Those sound like something a certain British maker would create. They were always making fad pellets about 20-30 years ago. I believe the base brand is Champion. I have shot many of their pellets and found them to be as poor as the cheapest Chinese pellets. More to look at than to shoot.
B.B.
BB,
Your right about that. All those pellets with different shapes do not schoot accurately. I found that pointed pellets, hollow points, slugs (rabbit magnum) and all those other types dont give the maximum accuracy. I have no clue why they make those pellets, we`d be beter off if the manufacturers focused on extremely accurate domes.
My Dutch gunsmith asked me what my toughts were on the pellets he sells. So we went through his pellet inventory. I suggested he`d drop at least 15 different types, and replace them with some pellets who have proven tot be accurate. He added some of the suggested pellets, but he didnt drop the lousy pellets!
I asked why he didnt drop them…. He said the general public wants tot buy those pellets, if he didnt sell them…..they`d buy them somewhere else.
Dutchjozef,
And that is a perfect example of a free market in operation. The dealer sells what people want to buy.
That is why I cannot understand when people criticize companies for what they make or how they price it. If they are wrong, the market will tell them, and only the nimble will survive. We don’t need design police on the sidelines, regulating what should and should not be made. That is communism, and it doesn’t work.
That doesn’t mean that we cannot or should not discuss how we feel. There are over 50,000 active readers on this blog, and their thoughts are important to all airgun manufacturers. But no one says they have to impliment any of them.
B.B.
BugBuster, yes, I know about bent op rods on the Garand, the one Achilles heel in the rifle of genius. That’s good to know that IMR 4064 is not a threat, but even if it were, I have a safeguard. My gunsmith designed some kind of two-piece track to keep the op rod from being bent. So, that’s where customization works in my favor. And with all the different loads I’m trying its reassuring.
Mike, sub-quarter MOA is asking a lot even from a Savage, but I can believe anything about this gun. 🙂 I’m surprised it’s not the rage in police departments with its low price and super accuracy. Instead, they seem to prefer the Remington 700. I’m supposing this is because of its record as a military sniper rifle. But I understand that those military rifles are all heavily rebuilt from their stock configuration.
RidgeRunner, yes, why not a Savage in .223? I got it as a police sniper with the intention to use it as the cheapest target rifle I could get my hands on. And the universal caliber was supposed to help me find cheap ammo. Recently, I checked back and found that Savage has discontinued the .223 in all their current production rifles! Why the heck they would do that and market less common calibers I have no idea. But they have some kind of service that is not exactly customization but which allows you to mix and match basic options, so you can get any rifle in .223 if you want. The round can do plenty of damage with shot placement.
My use of the term “transitional” for .22LR was not very exact. I just meant that the effective range seemed to overlap heavily with airguns and seemed closer to them than to centerfire technology that can go out hundreds of yards. I’m not entirely surprised at the widespread use of .22LR on deer and other prey animals. My understanding is that subsistence hunters of all cultures do things with much less equipment than we would consider necessary. It’s partly because they cannot afford more and partly because they are very good at what they do. I’ve heard of Eskimos hunting polar bears with .22LR. And in view of our conversation about wearing out guns, there were apparently some very bizarre reloading practices among the American Indians during the settling of the West. The settlers figured that they would tip the balance of weaponry to their side by not providing reloading components to the Indians. As a result, the Indians kept reloading what they had to the point of failure which in some cases was 30 times per case!? In part, I think they got away with this because of the lower pressures they were using, but they obviously were not thinking of long-term healthcare.
Matt61
Matt,
Im western europe the legal limit to hunt deer with is at LEAST .222 caliber. Yet, most deer have been shot with .22 caliber.
Poaching is the key word! In our country most serious shooters have an unregistered .22 rifle. They are mostly unscoped because of the zeroing issues (you dont want to draw unnecessary attention while re-zeroing) and cos of the hiding the gun….you need a compact space. Most popular palces are outside in a plastic container under the pavement/gravel at them premises, or between the ceiling and the kitchen unit.
We use a home made silencer. It reduces the shot report dramatically. The.22s are given from father to son. Youre now looking at a third generation of family poachers. My grandfather used this particular .22 in wwII, when war was declared over in 1945…the germans were still in our region. He shot some of the occupationers and made them disappear. If you really interested know how he did it, Ill tell you per email. This blog is not the place for such details.
Dear B.B./anyone,
[off topic] I just mounted a Bug Buster 3-9x Easy Tap scope to my Crosman 2250 rifle (a 2240 with skeleton stock and plastic receiver)
1) At 13.9 oz. the scope is too heavy and throws the lighter weight rifle off-balance (in my opinion).
2) I cannot get the scope close enough to my eye to see a correct sight picture.
I bought the scope because it ‘focuses’ down to 3 yds. Is there any other scope that ‘focuses’ this close or closer? And is lighter (the 4x Bug Buster is only .4 oz lighter)? And can I get a Picatinny or other adapter that allows me to place the scope closer to my eye (I assume I need to buy the steel receiver for the rifle from Crosman)?
Thanks!
Joe,
The Bug Buster is the best one. But in your case I recommend a vintage Weaver or even Leupold M8 4X scope. Clear as glass and not other worries.
B.B.
just purchased an RWS 45 from a pawn shop last week; mfg in 87 and seems a mirror of the one you’re testing, exc, missing front sight. works properly, with good pellet “punch” but don’t know much else yet. plan to scope it anyhow. very interested in results of your tests and tune up efforts. own and shoot a number of springers, Thanks and Merry Christmas!
Jack,
Welcome to the blog and Merry Christmas.
Please keep us informed of your progress as you test your rifle, too.
I think you will find the tuning information interesting.
B.B.