by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Umarex NXG APX multi-pump air rifle.
This report covers:
• Sight-in
• Accuracy, starting with Premier lite pellets
• On to RWS Superdome pellets
• What to do?
• Anything else?
• Summary
It’s been a long time since I looked at the Umrarex NXG APX air rifle kit. The last part was published on October 3, and it was an accuracy test at 10 meters with open sights. The next test was supposed to be shot at 25 yards with the scoped rifle, and that is what I’ll do today, but there was a problem.
Try though I did, I couldn’t find a scope mount that fit the top rail of the rifle! Without that, there’s no way of mounting a scope, and there goes the test.
A couple days ago, a reader mentioned this fact (the undersized scope rail) in a comment, and that prompted me to read Part 3, again. When I did, my eye fell on the product title of this rifle, it’s a kit — as in, it comes with a scope! Maybe the manufacturer put in a scope and a mount that has a smaller clamp? You have to hope!
When I opened the box I found the scope with the mounts attached. Lo and behold — they did fit. Although, the scope is only 4x and has no parallax adjustment, and the scope tube is only .75 inches. I mounted it on the rifle and proceeded with today’s test. If the scope didn’t align with the target, I didn’t know what I was going to do because I don’t have any backup optics this size.
Sight-in
But I didn’t need them. The scope aligned fine with the target. The test was back on! However, I first had to adjust the scope’s eyepiece to get the reticle sharp. Some shooters think the eyepiece is there to focus the target, and I will admit to having done that a time or two, but the focus is really there to make the reticle lines sharp. When you do that, of course, the scope is out of focus at all distances except for the one the fixed parallax is set for. Well, that and everything beyond to infinity.
Since this scope is only 4x, the focus at 25 yards does not matter because the target is too small to see any detail. So, I got away with sharpening the reticle lines.
I sighted-in the scope and discovered that there are no click detents in the adjustments. The adjustments do work well without them, but it feels strange not to hear and feel them when the wheels are turned.
That settled, I moved back to 25 yards and started the test. Each pellet tested was shot 10 times from a rested position. I decided on pumping 5 strokes per shot, so discounting the sight-in sessions that took 6 shots, there were a total of 50 pump strokes per pellet tested, and I tested 4 pellets. That’s 200 pump strokes, which makes me an expert on the ease of pumping this rifle.
The rifle has to be held at the pistol grip when it’s pumped because the scope gets in the way of holding it higher up on the receiver. But this rifle is so easy to pump that it’s not a problem! I could have shot it all day this way. So, the scope does not detract from the fun of shooting the NXG APX, and that’s something that cannot be said of all multi-pumps that get scoped.
Accuracy, starting with Premier lite pellets
The first pellet tested was the Crosman Premier 7.9-grain dome — the pellet we call the Premier lite. This was a good pellet at 10 meters. How would it do at 25 yards? I could see some of the pellets impacting the target through the scope, and they didn’t look that good. Ten went into 1.439 inches at 25 yards. That’s not so good!
Ten Premier lites in 1.439 inches at 25 yards is not a good start.
On to RWS Superdome pellets
Next in line were RWS Superdomes that had also done okay at 10 meters. They were even worse than the Premiers at 25 yards, though, because 10 made a 1.683-inch group. This was getting disheartening!
Ten RWS Superdomes went into 1.683 inches at 25 yards. Something was wrong, and I needed to find out what.
What to do?
At this point, I was getting a bit down. Sure, the scope isn’t the best, and the trigger is stiff and heavy, but I know I can shoot better than this! There had to be something else at work. My thought was perhaps a pellet with a larger head might help. Since I had no other ideas, it seemed like it was worth a try, so the next pellet I tried was the Air Arms Falcon that has a 4.52mm head. If you’ve been reading this blog for a couple months, you know that the Falcons have saved the day several times so far.
Ten Falcons made a group that measures 1.116 inches between centers. While that’s nothing to write home about, it’s significantly smaller than the first 2 groups. Perhaps, the larger head size made a difference after all?
Ten Air Arms Falcon pellets went into this 1.116-inch group at 25 yards. This is better, but still not as good as I’d hoped this rifle could do.
Anything else?
Now that I had an indication that pellet head size might make a difference, I had one more trick in my bag. I thought about using a heavy pellet, because all the pellets so far have either been light or medium weight. And, as luck would have it, Pyramyd AIR had just shipped me a couple tins of H&N Baracuda Match pellets with large head sizes. They had asked me over a month ago what head sizes I had; and when I checked, all I could find in the .177 Baracuda Match was a 4.50mm head. I have several tins of them, but nothing larger. So, PA shipped me this pellet with 4.52mm and 4.53mm heads, because they want me to test them for you. I selected the 4.53mm pellet for this test test.
And that solved the problem! Ten pellets went into 0.769 inches at 25 yards! That’s an extremely significant result, and it demonstrates the value of having pellets with the right size head. It probably also validates my thoughts on trying heavier pellets in a pneumatic to improve accuracy, although I can see more testing is needed in this area.
Now we’re talking! Ten H&N Baracuda Match pellets with 4.53mm heads went into 0.769 inches at 25 yards.
Summary
I could shoot more groups with this rifle, and I’m sure that sooner or later there would be one that’s even better. And I could adjust the scope so the pellets hit the center of the bull at 25 yards. But I don’t need to. I think this last test has told us everything we need to know about the Umarex NXG APX multi-pump rifle. It’s accurate, easy to pump, shoots both BBs and pellets, and comes with a scope. At the price, I don’t think there’s any room to complain.
I am rather surprised that the manufacturer opted to make his own rail specification in this day and age rather than modernizing this completely and used the standard Picatinny rails instead. Granted that it might be molded into the frame which is even better or worse depending on how you look at it. Better in one sense that all the manufacturer would have to do is fix the mold. Worse in the fact that this would entail the whole previous batch of rifles with a rail that would need an additional adapter so that other mounts can be used.
On a side note I’ll be battening down the hatches so to speak as the storm is predicted to be right on top of us by Tuesday at the latest.
More likely they discovered a shipping container full of cheap scopes that wouldn’t fit anything, and designed the gun around the scope…
The entire kit is $60? At that price I doubt the scope was nitrogen purged, and probably doesn’t even have gaskets/seals at the moving parts (eyepiece, adjustment screw shafts).
A 3/4″ tube? That’s smaller than the old JIS eyepiece standard that used to be found on department store telescopes (an alt/az mount 2.4″ refractor used to sell for around this price… In 1969!)
Yeah, there must be some mystery behind this scope. Why would a manufacturer design a rifle around a specialized scope and mount that only they make?
Matt61
Baron,
The 3/4″ tube is the unfortunate standard or so it seems at this price point both Daisy and Gamo. Both my 880S and my Gamo Recon Whisper came with these soda straw scopes. Not sure if Crosman is guilty of the same with the scope they bundle with the 760 and 664 kits.
David
THE MAGIC PELLET!
Don’t you just love it when that happens? The Barracuda Match in 4.53mm head sizeis the top performer in several of my guns and I’m thrilled to see you start using them. That means extra testing for the different head sizes but it can be worth it, especially if you also evaluate chrony data for velocity spread. In .22 cal, I favor this pellet in the 5.53mm size, BTW.
How much a difference a hundredth of an inch can make to a pellet’s accuracy? Will a tightly fitting head be more accurate than one just right? I rather doubt if the head were smaller than the skirt allowing it to tip while in the barrel will be conducive to accuracy. On a bolt action you can just about feel if the whole pellet is resisting, but in a break barrel you can actually see if the pellet’s head grabs the walls of the barrel before the skirt does.
I have not read all of of BB’s articles (reading August 2009 now) but the general trend I see so far is that pellets with good fit are best for accuracy. Light to Medium weight pellets for springers and Medium to Heavy weight for pneumatics, CO2 and PCPs.
Siraniko
Don’t hold that 100% true about those pellet weights being specific to a certain power plant.
I have been well surprised at times about what I thought a certain pellet was going to do in a gun.
As it goes you have to find what works in a particular gun be it heavy, light, long, short or whatever design it is.
I stopped thinking a long time ago what a pellet should do because it will make a liar out of you real quick if you try to predict.
True. I’m only now learning that there are more to pellets than get, load, aim and fire. Airguns here when I was growing up came in only two powerplants CO2 and pump-up. There were only a handful of people who used springers. Now I come back to airgunning after 25 years and there are more people using springers and some makers have advanced to making PCPs albeit manufacturing in boutique fashion, on order not mass produced which keeps prices high. Most of the young airgunners around are still going for power. The older ones are going for accuracy.
There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception. — James Thurber
Siraniko
I like that saying from James Thurber.
Siraniko,
Gunfun1 is right. I remember being surprised, as was B.B., when he discovered that the Crosman Premier Lites turned out to be the best pellet in the Marauder .177 Cal. (Powerful PCP, light pellet). I have never found a heavy pellet to be best in a CO2 gun. Anyway, take heed to GF1’s comments.
G&G
G&G thanks.
It still amazes me when I think something is going to go one way we these air rifles and it turns around and slaps me right in the face.
The only advice I can give is experiment and see what happens with what you have in front of you.
I’m still learning. I never knew that the pellet’s weight was a factor in their accuracy. When I was growing up there was only one brand/style available and just before I went away from airgunning there was a diabolo type introduced. Now there are some more local brands to choose from if you know where to look and if your pocket is deep enough even imported ones were available. Still catching up on the archives (up to August 2009 now, strangely it deals with BB’s 50 yard experiment using his Whiscombe and studying the relationship between velocity and accuracy.)
There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception. — James Thurber
Siraniko,
Actually, one, one-hundredth of an inch is a rather large figure in relation to barrel bores and or corresponding projectile diameters which are designed fit them, at least up to and including the .50 BMG, anything above that I am totally unfamiliar with.
One, one-hundredth of an inch equals .010″. Airgun pellets can be anywhere from the nominal size of 4.5 mm to 4,53 mm, just using the .177 caliber as an example. A 4.5 mm pellet should measure .1771654″ or rounding it off, .1772, each increase of .01 mm is only .0003937″ which is slightly less than four ten-thousandths of an inch, the largest diameter (4.53 mm) should measure .1783465″ which would be .1783 rounded. Not very much. I have to chuckle in amusement when I see posts of people sorting pellets by head diameter using dial calipers. Personally, I believe if you wish to sort from a given tin of pellets, weight, and obviously culling damaged pellets will be more important, I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time.
Bugbuster
Right on.
Bugbuster,
What you say does make sense. Over here our .22 cal local pellets are usually oversized. We have resorted to using a resizer that allows us to bring them down closer to the proper size when using an imported air rifle without resizing the pellet’s skirt really gets mashed up during loading. Our local barrels are usually based on true .22 rimfire specifications. We have found acceptable accuracy with the resized pellets. I will probably invest in a scale to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.
For ten meter plinking these will do. For farther out I still have to make more tests. I have abandoned experimentation with other cheaper pellets as that is equal to continuing a particular action in the hope of attaining a different result from the past results.
Siraniko,
I need a little more information, what is the make and model of your air rifle and pellet type and weight? Just out of curiosity, in which country do you live, I reside in the northeastern U.S.A.
The SAAMI (standard barrel dimension) for a .22 caliber rimfire is .222″ which is .0055″ (rounded) larger than the nominal groove diameter of a 5.5 mm air rifle barrel. Correct me if I am wrong, your local pellets are made to fit .22 caliber rimfire bores so must be swaged down approximately .0055″ to fit an industry standard air rifle barrel, yes?
Even without any more specifics, I believe that a tapered adjustable swaging die could be easily fabricated to correct the oversize pellet issue.
Air Gun making in the Philippines is still cottage industry. Armscor tried making it into a factory made industry but the market was not there. Witness that their PCP which they produced in 2009 only had a run of 30 before they stopped production. Before that they were producing a line of CO2 powered rifles and pistols. They have unfortunately stopped production this year to concentrate on their overseas contracts (they are known as Rock Island Armory over there I believe).
Due to our unfortunate episode in the 70’s which our then President declared Martial Law for 20 years, guns were not available to anyone. During that time came some relaxation of the rules and people were allowed airguns of local manufacture. Some enterprising gunsmiths made use of production barrels for rimfire and made them for airguns which led to the widespread use of that standard for our barrels which is why I believe that our local pellets are very much oversized for imported airguns. Barrels here are made of brass or steel.
This is why we had to make a swaging die to resize local pellets for use in imported rifles. Bolt action pneumatics swage upon loading but springers require resizing to get them in the bore.
There are a few companies like Farco that managed to make more than 30 guns come out, although I believe they were CO2, now that I think about it. As I understand it, the biggest problem with with HPA/PCP right now is the lack of infrastructure for charging them. Scuba compressors are on the spendy side, and the shops there charge a lot (compared to local wages) because they are focused on tourists and the extra cash they carry.
Consider making a CO2 to HPA conversion if you have a pump or compressor; it is very popular to do here with guns like the 2240, for example. If you don’t have a pump, consider building one, if you have the skills. I know they aren’t EASY to make, but they have a lot of aftermarket reseal kits available, and I can hope you would be able to find something you could work with.
My personal mechanical skills are VERY weak, but it doesn’t stop me from trying. 😉
Ask around, I have heard there are a lot of those old airguns stashed away in attics and under floorboards, just in case. You might be able to find one in your family that would need enough work to justify the difficulty.
If you do get it figured out, I definitely hope you will be willing to tell us about it here! 😀
Farco and family are still making airguns but their mass production leaves a lot to be desired. They are out for quantity not quality to my mind. If they were out for quality they would have changed their pumping system to something that would give some mechanical advantage. They still insist on producing a front pumped air rifle which requires 30 strokes of up to about 75 lbs of effort! Their barrels are soldered in to minimize leaks but when they do our smiths are swearing left and right to do the repair.
The boutique airgun makers are alive and well producing quality CO2 and PCPs. There are some who do convert CO2 to PCP but we are careful with such conversions as that not all are aware of the vast pressure differences. HPA manual Air pumps here cost two to three times that of a Farco airgun. I have been studying the feasibility but the safety concerns are very concerning. Some guy in Indonesia I believe blew his face off when he filled his Chinese CO2 tank with HPA using it in what appears to be a AirForce knock-off.
PCPs right now are considered the high end of airguns there are several local producers but they are not made in volume. Spring air rifles are not made here due to poor metallurgy.
Right now the best thing I can do is educate others by translating some of BB’s articles someday.
Speaking of building a pump! I caught a deal at Harbor Freight the the day on a bicycle pump fo$10. It’s a 2 stage that has a guage going up to 160psi. It’s a one tire at a time deal. By50psi I’m wore out! It’s all plastic and wouldn’t last long without special attention to technique.
Reb,
There are some decent aluminum bicycle pumps that will go to 200 PSI in the $10-30 range, but they are a lot of work. Your average $10-30 “emergency tire compressor” will usually go 160-200 lbs as well, and plugs right into your car’s lighter. It really is an excellent value for those ranges, and mine receives a lot of use in the shop, even though I do have a regular shop compressor as well.
The one for use in your car DOES need power, and the battery powered ones are a little more expensive and a lot heavier, but they can also be used to jump-start your car, or run your laptop if there’s a power outage. The good news is they are only about $75 at Costco. 😀
Siraniko,
You didn’t give me any specifics about your air rifle. If it is a break barrel, the process will be a lot easier. Are you familiar with a metal alloy called Cerrosafe? It can be melted in boiling water and poured into the breech of a rifle and once removed can be measured to determine the actual dimensions of the chamber, bore and groove diameter among others. With this information, I believe it should be relatively simple to fabricate an adjustable, tapered swaging die for your pellets.
I’m using my father’s .22 cal Hatsan 60 break barrel. We are using a brass swaging die we made years ago for a Crosman 1400 we had years ago. The 1400 fell to the wayside unfortunately about 25-30 years ago because we could not find replacement seals for it. We also did not know of the “miracle” of Pellgun Oil for its maintenance otherwise I would still be shooting that. Anyway getting offhand groups of an inch at 10 meters is good enough for me now. If I were to shoot regularly at farther distances then I will really have to look for better pellets.
I have heard of Cerrosafe but have never encountered anybody using it on our shores. Researching into it considering the use of a related metal alloy among railroad enthusiasts convinces me that it does not exist here.
Cerrosafe can be replaced with Sulfur and Graphite, among other things. Use 4 parts sulfur and 1 part graphite, buy volume, you can purchase them at any “feed ‘n’ seed” or farm store here, not sure about there.
Definitely do some research, tho. For example, if you heat this mixture too fast, it will catch fire, and even if heated slowly, it puts out unpleasant and unsafe fumes. It is reusable, cheap, and effective, but you have to do your research. Knowledge isn’t expensive, but you DO have to work for it. 😉
Qjay,
I doubt if I can find the sulfur here that easily. Due to our nation’s history I’m sure this is a monitored item as that it is a component that can be repurposed. I am not hot on the idea of slugging the bore as that I am getting adequate results as is. I may re-visit the idea though if ever I have need for such exacting measurements. As Bugbuster mentioned above it doesn’t make much sense if your pellets are regularly shaped but have irregular weight. I would rather use my time weighing the pellets for use rather making myself cross-eyed measuring pellet diameter with a caliper even if it were digital.
Siraniko,
Are quality pellets difficult to find there or are they just cost prohibitive? What is the nominal weight of the local pellets?
I believe that I have found a simple solution to size them through the use of a tapered pin reamer. Brass, bronze or even mild steel could be used for the die body. A 5.00 mm tapered reamer has a minor diameter of .193″, the major diameter is .250″. This gives you a taper of approximately .020″ per inch on the diameter. The second choice would be a # 4 tapered pin reamer which has a slightly greater taper, around .0008″ per inch. As an example, if a pellet measures .2″ from the head diameter to the bottom of the skirt, regardless of how deep the pellet is pushed into the die, the skirt will always remain .004″ larger than the head. If the # 4 reamer is used, the skirt diameter will be less than .0002″ larger, an insignificant amount. I really believe this would work. The more I think of it, I may try this myself!
Ojay is correct about using sulfur for chamber casts, I just remembered that this morning. I recalled reading that several years ago. You are also correct in that sulfur can be used for other purposes. Sulfur, powered charcoal and potassium nitrate mixed in the proper ratio = black powder. When you have time, type (using sulfur for chamber casting) into your search engine, very informative.
One more thing, check out McMaster Carr, it is an industrial supply company which sells practically anything you can imagine. I deal with them a lot. Someone remarked about them on the web saying ” If they don’t have it, you don’t need it” and I believe that!
Bugbuster,
Quality pellets here are expensive 1000 pellets of JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Heavy .22 Cal from PyramydAir will cost you $34 there, over here after taxes and middleman it comes out $90, and there is no buy 4 get 1 free in the sale. Local pellets weigh around >18 grains.
Are you by chance a benchrest shooter? Your solution reminds me of the stories on how far the lengths some would go to ensure they have the best ammunition. I will keep you solution in mind but since I’m not shooting at 50 yards but keeping myself at 10 meters I will call myself satisfied for now. When I do find a place where I can shoot that for or even farther I will probably buckle down and buy the pellets even at that price. Failing that I may invest in having your solution made by a reputable machinist.
I’m just getting back to this hobby/obsession after 25 years of absence. I’m dusting off and revitalizing our CO2 guns and trying to master the artillery hold. Despite BB’s non-endorsement of the use of the ATF and STP Oil Treatment mixture, I have found it a good enough substitute for PellGun Oil. Much as I would like to purchase it with our present economy here and minimal income to spare I will use this mix until I can find a good enough substitute or a relatively cheap source of Pellgun Oil. If ever I do graduate to a PCP I will start looking for silicone based lubricants to avoid ignition.
McMaster Carr is not around here in Southeast Asia to my knowledge. Alibaba.com is though but I’m still trying the find out the cost of the customs duties before thinking of ordering from overseas. I will look around locally first though as that there are quite a number of individuals here in the Philippines who deal in airguns.
“How much a difference a hundredth of an inch can make to a pellet’s accuracy?”
B.B. isn’t talking about “a hundredth of an inch” — remember, these are metric sizes: “so the next pellet I tried was the Air Arms Falcon that has a 4.52mm… as luck would have it, Pyramyd AIR had just shipped me a couple tins of H&N Baracuda Match pellets with large head sizes… PA shipped me this pellet with 4.52mm and 4.53mm heads, because they want me to test them for you. I selected the 4.53mm pellet for this test.”
To go to extreme decimal inch equivalents, here are those numbers, in millimeters (mm) and micrometers (um) converted from metric to inch:
H&N Baracuda Match = 4.50mm (4500 um) = 0.1771653543309″
Air Arms Falcon and H&N Baracuda Match: 4.52mm (4520 um) = 0.1779527559057″ (+0.0007874015748″ greater)
H&N Baracuda Match: 4.53mm (4530 um) = 0.17834645669311″ (+0.00118110236221″)
So were not talking about “a hundredth of an inch” (1/100 = 0.010″ = 0.254mm, which you’d never get to fit in the breech without undue and distorting force), we’re talking about differences of 0.000787″ (that’s about 8 ten thousandths of an inch) and 0.00118″ (a BRCH over one-one thousandth of an inch from the 4.50mm H&N Baracuda Match to the 4.53mm H&N Baracuda Match.
To put that number into perspective, a single human hair ranges from 17 to 180 micrometers (0.00067″ to 0.00709″).
Sorry my mistake such is the pitfalls of mixing metric and imperial units.
No need to apologize — Maybe someday America will drag itself out of the 19th century, and adopt a measurement system that’s easy to make sense of. The length of King Caractacus’* arm from his helbow to the tip of his index finger is hardly a good basis for accurate measurement!
*Actually King Caratacus, a leader of assorted tribes in Britain who resisted the Roman invasion of Britain in AD43
Feinwerk,
I guess I am late to the party on this. Well, at least I made it!
B.B.
Ssssalright. Isn’t it nice to know there is still something new to explore? Source material for another blog perhaps. The Baracuda Match .177/4.53 hd shoots well in my rws 34p, my alecto ultra pistol (cant remember if youve reviewed that great pistol, btw), but not so great in my TX200 HC. This pellet may also transform the performance of other guns. Being a heavyweight, it’ll extract max muzzle energy from pumpers and pcps, buck crosswinds better, but will be a bit slower and require more elevation holdover at longer distances. This pellet also has a higher ballistic coefficient than most, helping retain more velocity downrange.
I’m sure you have limited time to test various pellets, which is frustrating. If you do some tests comparing various head sizes of the same pellet, I recommend you record and present chronograph data of avg velocity and extreme spread to help identify the winner for a particular gun.
Better late then never as they say.
And that pellet sure did transform that gun. I will say that I was quite surprised.
Looks like the gun could be a nice little plinker for the price.
Hello BB and Airgunners
I’m happy to see you found a pellet this rifle likes to shoot. I know the feeling well, but it usually takes me a lot longer time wise as well as having to use many more pellets. There is one question about the pellet you chose. How would you know if the H+N Barracuda pellet in 4.50 wouldn’t shoot as good? I guess what I’m saying is I am surprised you reached the conclusion of a larger head pellet being the better one so quickly. As I alluded to earlier, I would need to try all the head sizes I have before coming to any definite conclusion.
That being said, it looks like this NXG APX Multi Pump will be an excellent plinker. That is if you are into multi pump rifles. I know there is a large contingent who are avid fans, and would rather shoot one then any other. I like to cock once, and my gun is ready for action. However, I will support any method as it allows us more guns to choose from. May there always be diverse attitudes concerning the methods of propelling a pellet gun.
Ciao
Titus
Titus,
I did this as fast as I did by using one part experience and one part luck. Experience told me a heavier pellet would be more accurate in a pneumatic. And, when I saw what the larger head on the Falcon did to the group size, choosing the 4.53mm Baracuda Match seemed a given.
The luck came into the picture when it worked.
B.B.
I have had pellets load loose into a barrel and pretty much that shot will usually be different than the other shots.
I think that’s why that .22 cal. Walther LGU I just got is working so well. I been using the heavier 15.88 JSB pellets in it. And when I load the pellet the head is definatly a tighter fit in this gun’s barrel.
And what is surprising is that this springer is shooting that heavy pellet in the low 600 fps zone and its very,very accurate.
But on the other hand I have had the JSB 10.34’s load loose in one barrel and tight in another guns barrel and still gave good results from the gun.
And when I was a kid all I thought about a pellet was that it was to soft and I didn’t like how that back part squished to easy in my fingers.
Now I even know what that back is called. Amazing. 🙂
Seems promising but if this were to be the rifle on every boy’s Christmas list I think it should have decent accuracy with pellets you can pick up at any Wal-Mart or sporting goods store, and that means the basic offerings from crosman and gamo. My 880 seems to eat crosman pellets from Wal-Mart pretty well.
Tim,
Unfortunately, it almost never happens that the cheaper pellets available at the big box stores work very well in any gun regardless of the gun’s quality. Apparently you found one that did but that is unusual.
One of B.B.’s rules as outlined in the P.A. catalog for accurate shooting (there are ten of them I think) is to use premium pellets. However, we are most likely talking about a kid’s rifle in this case and their expectations are very different from most of ours. But if you want to create a new generation of lifetime air gun enthusiasts they need to be able to hit what they are aiming at or they will lose interest fast.
G&G
While on the subject of the multi pump rifles, I’ve been itching for a gun that doesn’t seem to exist. Given the similarities between a multi pump and a pcp, why don’t we see any shrouded multi pumps?
I’d love to see, basically, a 392/7, set up to accept a scope properly, with the barrel shroud like a marauder. If the power could be brought up closer to the level of a discovery that would be great but if not so be it. If they could keep the price point around that of a disco I’d think there would be a market.
Not every one can afford to get into pcp, especially if you need something quiet. A multi pump doesn’t have a springer’s hold sensitivity which means it’s easier to rest it on something or hold it against a tree to stabilize it.
Seems like a perfect low budget small game gun to me, but no one makes it, unless you know of a gun I should look at.
Tim
You sound like me. This day and age with all the technology available I believe that the manufacturer’s should incorporate a shroud on guns.
Of course there are certain types of guns that you may not want shrouded.
But for me I would like a lot of the air rifles that I’m thinking of shrouded.
I think I’m tired of saying that now I have said it so much in the past.
Tim,
Maybe you should give serious thought to one of these.
/product/benjamin-discovery-rifle-pump?m=1534
I personally would really like a nice multipump, but with setups like this, it may be questionable to the manufacturers as to whether there is enough of a market to invest in a production line to build one.
It’s all BB’s fault. He showed Crosman that they could build an inexpensive PCP and there was a huge market for such. The Discovery and then the Marauder took off big time. These have basically killed further development of single stroke pneumatics and multipumps, most especially since we have shown them with our wallets that we want more power than these will deliver.
FX has built what you want, the Independence. I would really like to see Crosman come out with a version of it based upon the Katana. A major issue is going to be weight. We have also voted for lighter air rifles.
That is what happens when we buy what is almost what we want. We are buying it, so we must like it, so they make more of it. Every once in a while, someone will come along and take a chance, but not often.
I do blame BB. I think as penance he should start whispering in their ears about a shrouded 392.
That gun you mentioned looks awesome. I was really just thinking a shrouded 392, since that would be cheaper. Either of them would be awesome for something like an extended hunting trip. Yours is likely far out of my price range, but it’s going in my list of things to buy one of these days if I suddenly find myself rich or if my wife cheats on me and has to let me buy whatever I want.
As for the disco, maybe one day but right now I need quiet. Unless something happens I’ll be buying a .22 marauder in about two months. I know the disco can be quieted but by the time I get I quiet, tune the power up where I want it, I might as well get the mrod.
NO!!! Not a shrouded 392! We want something better than that! We want Crosman to bring back the Katana and turn it into a multipump.
The Katana was a cross between the Discovery and the Marauder. It was built especially for Pyramyd AIR. I wish I had picked one of them up when I had the chance.
RR
I liked the Katana also and have thought the same. I do wish I would of got one. And I did like the stock they put on them.
RR
I would like to see a 12 + fpe multi pump with a rifled steel barrel and Weaver rail that is easier to pump then the 392. Discovery or better accuracy would be good.
B.B. reviewed a 392 with a modified pumping action some years ago wish that mod was still available. I would jump on that mod for my 392.
David
Have you contacted Mac1? I do not know if he still builds the steroid rifles, but he still sells the parts for such.
http://www.mac1airgunshop.com/
That is why I want the Katana brought back as a pumper. With a longer barrel and reservoir you would get a more efficient pump stroke and more efficient use of the air. If it was based on the Discovery/Katana most of the parts are already in the production stream.
Also there are after market upgrades that would likely fit, such as an action block with Picatinny rails along the top. That action block also allows the barrel to be shrouded. You can even mod it to take the Marauder magazine.
I think Crosman is really missing the boat on this one. If they could bring this thing to market, have it produce +12FPE, shoot a minimum of 2 MOA at 50 yards and have it priced between the Discovery and the Marauder, it would sell big time. I would buy one for sure, man.
By the way, when you get that Marauder you will probably forget that multipump stuff.
I just saw at Croswords that Crosman is marketing a new manual pump which strangely looks like having the articulations of the pump assist 392 on both sides which BB reported back in January 2008.
Siraniko,
That would be the butterfly pump that we have been waiting for for the past 4 years.
B.B.
A.K.A. “The Godot Pump.”
Oh, relatively obscure theatrical reference. Good one, though. 🙂
Qua, qua, qua.
B.B.,
I saw on the Yellow that the Turbo Pump project has been killed by Crosman. Comment at the bottom from Chip Honeycutt (Chip at Crosman) in this thread:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1415585431
Too bad too,
Mark N
Mark,
Thank you for that update. I was pretty sure they weren’t going to make it.
B.B.,
Siraniko,
I am computer stupid, I posted on this blog because there was no place to reply under your last post! I really like to have the post I am responding to on the monitor so I can answer all relevant questions asked. This time, I had to write down a few notes, so if i omit something, please excuse me. By the way, your English is excellent, much more so than posts made by far too many Americans. I sincerely believe that cellphone texting is making them illiterate by using acronyms constantly and being too lazy to even spell check, and when they do spell check, a homonym comes up and since it sounds like the word they want, bingo, they use it! Makes me nuts!
Sorry about the rant, now to answer your questions. No, i am not a benchrest shooter, just someone with a bad case of OCD. I have enjoyed shooting for half a century, more or less. I just find it very satisfying to be able to launch a small “metal pill” and have it impact where I was aiming at several feet to several hundreds of yards away. What size groups are you getting at 10 meters with your local pellets?
I don’t know what to tell you about the oil situation. First, let me regress somewhat. The first air rifle I ever owned was a Daisy model 922 pneumatic. I used to shoot boring bees with it as they hovered in the air, when my eyesight was better, many moons ago as the Indians would say. A boring bee is about the size of a bumblebee and will chew a round hole approximately .375″ into soft untreated wood to lay their eggs, very destructive!
My second rifle was a Chinese medium powered side lever made by EMEI and I believe is called a TS-45, don’t hold me to this, it was given to me by a friend. The sights on it are near identical to an SKS 7.62 X 39 mm rifle, it has no safety, the trigger is horrible and the rear sight was spot welded on the compression tube crooked, so you get an automatic windage change with any elevation on the tangent rear sight! Apparently, however, it must have a good barrel because it is very accurate and I plan on rebuilding it! It shot well until this past spring then lost its power. When I disassembled it, I discovered that the leather piston seal had disintegrated due to insufficient lubrication, I didn’t know it had to be oiled, DUH! To make a long story short, I was able to purchase a new seal and reassembled it used a full synthetic SAE 0-20 motor oil on the piston seal, probably not the best choice, but it works. Fortunately, The piston seals came in a set of three and I replaced the breech seal at the same time which also came with extras. This is how I became interested in airguns.
I get where you are coming from. Half the time I have to ask my kids what those abbreviations mean. English is our second language but it is evolving to something else from what I learned before.
No problem with the OCD. From a bench within a quarter of an inch with local pellets using a local copy of the Crosman 160. Call me a slacker but that is good enough accuracy for me right now. Just restarted about 3 months ago.
Now I know where you got your name.
I’ll be reading you on the next blog.
Siraniko,
As I was scrolling down to locate your last post, I re-read some of your others. Wow! You are correct, premium pellets are outrageous there, .09 U.S. every time you squeeze the trigger, ouch! Can you get Crosman pellets? I have had some good luck with them and they cost considerably less than JSB’s and H&N’s.
Are you shooting only .22 caliber or do you have a .177 also? What do you mean by “within a quarter of an inch”, is that CTC? How many shots per group? If I am interpreting this correctly, that is excellent.What type of sights are you using?
I believe that you stated a while back that you had a pneumatic air rifle that you had to retire because the seal on the pump went bad and is no longer available. Could the piston head not be modified to use possibly the cup out of an automotive brake piston or o-rings? Just wondering. Tell me more about your 160, I am not familiar with that model and with a lot of others for that matter.
I did an inquiry very early this morning to McMaster Carr to see if they ship to the Philippines, and they replied with the following: Due to the cost of complying with extensive U.S. export regulations, they only deal with established international customers, too bad. Even so, if you could access their website, there is a huge amount of useful information there, properties of materials, dimensions and in many cases even CAD drawings of the product.
You got me on the bee thing, unfortunately, I missed many more than I actually hit. When i did connect though, the pellet made a resounding splat and the bee would literally disappear! I have a new game now, I call it Beeminton. You take an old badminton racquet, install about a 2′ extension to the handle and swat them, Sometimes, if you are lucky you can get a twofer or a threefer since they are very territorial and fight amongst themselves constantly.
I have a friend whose son moved to the Philippines years ago and another friend, an airline pilot who married a Philippine woman a year or two ago. They have a child but he hasn’t been able to get them back to the U.S. yet, I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago. I’ll have to find out where they live over there.
RidgeRunner,
Regarding the Independence there is one thing I have never quite understood. Don’t you have to fill it initially with air like any other PCP? Then if you pump it 3 times after each shot the PSI does not drop? Or can you fill it with the pump alone which doesn’t seem feasible to me?
G&G
G&G
I do rember there is somebody here on the blog that has one so maybe they can help.
But if I’m remembering right from the info on a website the FX Indapendance. Can be filled with compressed air or pumped up by the on board hand pump and also topped of in between shots. Pretty versatile.
GF1,
I figured if you had to tune the TX that you would want to upgrade the trigger on the LGU. 😉
Just bustin’ yer chops, man.
RR
Ha ha, and no again on the trigger change on the LGU. 🙂
But I am working on a little experiment on the TX right exactly right now. Getting ready to go try it out. And then there will be one more thing I will do if this works like what I tested at work last night on something of a smaller scale.
Its got something to do with a rubber washer I made and the second part of the change will consist of some slots being milled in a piece. I have to order that extra piece incase this don’t work out so I will still have the original to put back in. And I don’t want the gun being down while I’m waiting for parts so the second half of the experiment may take another week or so till I get that part. Fingers crossed that this produces the same results I got last night. 🙂
G&G,
You can fill it with just the onboard pump, but that is a lot of pumping. I would rather fill it with a hand pump. The onboard pump is great for topping off between shots. You can fill it before you hit the woods and keep it topped off all day long.
You can recharge the independence air reservoir from zero with the onboard pump. The reservoir is small and the pressure drops a little with each shot. You can top it off with a few pumps between shots (for the most consistency) or shoot several times quickly (it has a rotary magazine) and then recharge with a larger number of pumps.
Tim,
As far as I know, that gun doesn’t exist yet. But airgun manufacturers like Crosman do read this blog, so we may hope.
B.B.
B.B.,
The rifle I was talking about is the FX Independence and you can keep a full charge in it by pumping 3 times with the on board pump for every shot taken. What I don’t understand is how it gets the initial full charge.
It’s very expensive though, $1800.
G&G
G&G
They have a used one on a website right now for sale for $1495 and its a .22 cal. and a FX Monsoon for $1395 and it is also a.22 cal.
And yes the Monsoons are like $1500 to $1700 depending on if you get a wood stock or a synthetic stock. I think the Independance comes only in the synthetic stock.
Ridgerunner, Gunfun1, and G&G,
Steve Woodward’s Custom Benjamin 392 ACP (Air Conserving Pumper) MK II is what you seem to be looking for. Pump 8 times, shoot. Pump 3 times, shoot; pump three times, shoot; pump three times, shoot; and so on. All shots are full power, but only the first shot requires more than three pumps. $340.
Michael
Michael
Thanks and yes I have read about that gun.
And you did post about it in the right place here where we are talking about the used FX guns.
But does it have something to keep it quiet? Because that’s what I was initially looking for. The self contained pcps are awesome, but the quiet part was what I was looking for.
Right, I definitely see market niches for shrouded pumpers and co2 air rifles.
Someone offers a silencer for the 397/392. I saw it on the web yesterday.
BB,
Speaking of the Katana, do you still have it or did it get sent back?
RR,
I sent it back years ago.
B.B.
XF airguns makes two self contained PCP models the Indy & the Independence, but at $1800 – $2000 or so they are defiantly out of my price range so i am waiting for somebody in China, Russia or in some other place to make some kind of copy. You would think that a Marauder would not take that much modification to have a similar pump system. I hope self contained PCPs become a real force in air rifles as they at least to my mind solve all the problems of all the support equipment needed by PCPs with none of the drawbacks of a springer.
B.B.:
I was glad to see you found a pellet that shoots accurately in the APX at 25 yards.
I really love mine, which I shoot at close range (small basement), and get sub .30″ ten-shot groups with pellets ranging from RWS Hobbies to Crosman Ultras. On a good day, I can get ten Hobbies inside .25″ with this gun.
What I really love about the accurate and easy pumping gun is the price!
I have no trouble mounting scopes when I use an inexpensive UTG 11mm to Weaver adapter, which fits the narrow APX rail just fine. I first mounted a Leapers 4X that has an AO that focuses down to close range, but then I switched to an old Bushnell 4-12X with a thin target reticle. Both set ups are rock solid.
This is a great gun for penny pinchers who can’t stand inaccurate guns. I’m going to shoot mine all winter to keep up competition rimfire benchrest skills. The APX and a winter’s worth of pellets are considerably less than one brick of .22 match ammo.
I like to use H&N Field Trophies and with spectacular results, even if i say so myself lol. but when i tried a local gun shop i hadn’t used before because it seemed to me a bit posh and expensive, they said they only sold ‘hunting pellets’ and they had the Barracuda Match along side other pellets with ‘rabbit stopper’, ‘heavies’, and ‘magnum’ in the names. So i thought in for a penny, in for a pound,-or in this case in for a lot of pennies, in for a lot of pounds- I’ll give them a go. Wow! Was i impressed, they did well in all my pneumatics’s. especially my cheap Chinese multi pump that i love so dearly. I’m definitely getting some more of these, but next time I’ll go some where cheaper. Atb
TTFN
Best wishes, Wing Commander Sir Nigel Tetlington-Smythe.
I have had good performance from the H&N Field Target Trophy in .177/4.51mm head size and .22/5.53 head size.
What about trying those adjustable pieces that go under the rings [can’t remember what they are called]. that way you could use a better scope. Harry
When I tried the apx I got the same results for pellets, heavier was better. I didn’t mount the scope fully, slapped it on looked through and decided just to use the convenient open sights. My best groups were hovering inside an inch with the worst getting to 2.5-3″ at 20-25 yds. Plenty good of a start for plinking and 10 meter target fun, and more time in to it could definitely get the apx to be spot on with the right pellet. Great Christmas tree surprise, perfect for fledgling marksmen.
Tom,
Off-Topic, but with all of the replica revolver talk during the past week, I went through my CO2 revolver collection yesterday. Then it dawned on me. Of all of the double-actions,only the Webley was truly ambidextrous. This is true not only with the placement of its controls, but its grips, unlike the grips of American 20th century revolvers, are ambidextrous, too.
Then I saw something I’d never before noticed about all swing-out cylinder revolvers: the crescent-shaped cylinder shield on the grip side of the frame is always flared on the left hand side. Why?
I have never fired an actual powder-burning swing-out revolver, but if I did, because I am left-handed, would I risk injury to my trigger finger (between the first and second knuckles) from expelled hot gases?
Michael
Michael,
Most revolvers swing out to the left, it’s true. That is a right-hand bias.
But as for the gasses and lead being spit from the cylinder, it comes out both side. No favoritism there.
B.B.
I suspect that “flare” is the guide for the cylinder lock pin.
When you push the cylinder release, it pushes a spring-loaded pin into the cylinder axis, releasing the rear of the cylinder from the frame (the front end of that pin may then retract a “hook” where the cylinder crane fits under the barrel).
When closing the cylinder, the flare allow the spring-loaded pin (which is now sticking out again) to be depressed, until the cylinder is in alignment and the pin pops into the hole in the frame.
Michael,
How about a M1895 Nagant for your replica collection?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUR9X-yHXTg
kevin
Kevin,
I have always considered the Nagant and SAA to be accidentally designed for lefties like me!
Is Gletcher a brand name owned by Umarex for distribution purposes, or are they an actual competitor? I suspect the latter because they have a blowback P.08 with brown grips and a BB magazine separate from the CO2.
Michael
Michael,
B.B. is 100% correct about the gasses, bullet shavings and unburned powder being expelled at a very high velocity between the cylinder and forcing cone of all revolvers with the possible exception of the Nagant model 1895. This is normal and will not strike the shooting hand, just DO NOT place any part of your body near the barrel/cylinder junction. I did that many years ago (I knew better) with a S&W model 28. I was picking kernels of powder out of my left forearm for days! The “spitting” problem becomes even worse if the revolver is out of time. This condition exists when the bolt does not fully engage the cylinder notches.
If you wish to see a graphic example of this, drape a newspaper over a magnum, .357 or larger and fire it, instant confetti.
Bug,
The Mythbusters put an analog thumb (pig bone wrapped in meat) alongside the cylinder of a S&W 500 Magnum and cut it in half with one shot. That’s is how bad those gasses and shavings can get.
B.B.
B.B.,
Never fired anything larger than a .44 Magnum in a handgun, not really sure that I would want to! I love the .41 Mag, used to have a S&W model 657 with the 8 3/8 barrel. I believe the .41 hand loaded with the right components gives up very little to the .44 and is a lot more controllable.
As far as rifles go, I have shot many different calibers from .22 rimfire through .300 Win Mag, although nothing in between the .300 Win Mag and the .50 BMG not counting the M2HB MG.
I can certainly believe the results obtained by Mythbusters with the S&W .500 Mag, I distinctly remember how my arm felt from the lowly .357 Mag! Are you aware that some people have actually manufactured pistols in .50 BMG? That would make the S&W .500 seem like a .22 long in comparison. Want no parts of either one!
Tom and Bugbuster,
I wonder why .357 and .44 magnum owners do not simply take them to the range with .38 Special and .44 Special ammo, respectively, just to be able to enjoy (I presume enjoy) shooting these expensive guns they bought and also get some practice in with them. Don’t these have significantly less recoil than their magnum counterparts?
Also, when it come to .44 Special, if one wanted the “stopping power,” more or less, of 45 ACP but preferred the design simplicity/superiority of the revolver (over the semi-auto), why not buy a stout, 4 inch S&W 29 and shoot it with .44 Special exclusively, not even purchasing any magnum ammo, essentially buying the 29 to be used as if it were a .44SPL?
Michael
Michael,
As luck would have it, I blundered into an S&W 44 Spl. a few years ago. It has when we (me and the S&W factory archive people) believe to be a genuine round butt and a 4-inch bb. Someone reblued it year ago, which cust off most of the collector value, but it’s still a pretty gun and nice to shoot.
B.B.
Michael,
I handloaded the ammo for all of my firearms except for rimfire and shotgun shells and I also had a .38 special revolver. My first .44 mag was a Ruger Blackhawk which I sold to buy the S&W 657. The Ruger was accurate, but noisy. I bought it to use for deer hunting, when you cocked it, unfortunately, it was like snapping twigs.
Yes .38 special and I am certain .44 special have considerably less recoil than their magnum counterparts although I never reloaded any .44 specials, actually, I never loaded any .44 mags either. When I loaded swaged lead bullets, I kept the velocities down, when I loaded jacketed hollow points, you wouldn’t want to get in their way.
Actually, I prefer autos over revolvers for self defense, the first pistol I ever bought was a Colt Government Model in .38 super after graduating from high school. That was a long time ago, at that time it cost either $76 or $94 new in the box with two mags. There are many good calibers out there, 9×19 mm, .38 super .40 S&W, 10 mm and of course the venerable .45 ACP which is now over 100 years old and just about everybody is currently manufacturing. They will all do the job with the proper ammunition and bullet placement. Never could see much use for the .45 GAP (.45 ACP short) however, an overly expensive, proprietary cartridge.
I don,t like alloy frames and polymer ones even less, that’s just my preference. As far as the S&W 29 goes, even though it is a fine weapon, it is very bulky due to the diameter of the six shot cylinder, even more so than many large frame autos with a single colume
Michael,
Whoops, hit the reply button instead spell check.I was almost finished, let me continue the post. I was trying to say an auto with a single column (stack) magazine. Hey, that’s just my opinion and I’m sure you know what they say about opinions. I say if it makes you happy and works for you, doesn’t damage or infringe upon the rights of others, go for it.
I do shoot both my 6″ round butt target “K” frame as well as my 3″ python almost exclusively with .38 special wadcutters. The fact my Python really is a .38 special (as opposed to a .357 Mag) is a story for another day, but know Pythons have been known to come in alternate flavors. Also handy for winning after-shooting-session bar-bets from time to time. Round butt 6″ target “K” frames ain’t so common either. Point being, a mild .38 is infinitely more pleasant to shoot and much more accurate than ball of flame roaring .357 mags. Lets the gun itself last MUCH longer, too. I will admit to a certain amount of entertainment value for the mag rounds in a short barrel, though.
Really, a mag revolver is ideally suited for training newbies on just how different loadings can be and how the differences on powder and velocity effect what comes out the end of that barrel.
Just as a tip, if you utilize this teaching regimen, start them off with a blank, as there’s no better way to differentiate what the see on TV vs real life. Explain fully what’s going to happen as they work their way up through wad-cutter, standard, and the plus-P round and make sure, when they touch the Magnum off, they know before-hand, it’s going to make a bigger boom…
Remember, nobody likes to be suprised, nor kloped in the forehead from recoil. Despite what you may see on youtube, it ain’t funny.
Bugbuster and 103David,
All very good to know, and knowledge is what I’m after.
I am not an owner of real firearms, and I have never shot one. It’s not a political thing with me, it’s just that I don’t hunt, shoot for sport, or think I would feel more safe with a (real) gun in my possession. Well, I would feel more safe in my home if I had seven or eight shotguns hidden around the house. But I DO feel safe in my house even though it is firearm-less, so, no need for a slough of unsafely stored shotguns.
I am an airgunner only.
But I have a curious nature and have long found firearms to be fascinating. I can’t learn enough about ’em! I also am a film scholar, and the role of firearms in cinema is huge.
Think of me this way: there are loads of folks who LOVE airplanes but never learn to fly them or feel compelled to. I guess I’m that way with powder burners.
Michael
Michael,
Here are some things to watch for in the movies in regard to pistols mostly, and I am sure I will omit some.
1 Suppressors (silencers) do not work on revolvers, with the possible exception of the 1895 Nagant.
2 How many times have you seen someone being held at gunpoint by a person holding a single action revolver (Colt SAA) or auto (Colt 1911) with the hammer down? The handgun cannot fire at that instant unless the hammer is manually cocked before pulling the trigger.
3 No revolver with a swing out cylinder buzzes when the cylinder is spun while open.
4 If you wish to damage your revolver with a swing out cylinder, always open the cylinder and snap it closed with a quick snap of your wrist, looks very cool but not at all good for the pistol. It makes me cringe every time I see that. No one with any knowledge of revolvers does that!
5 Count the number of shots fired from revolvers, especially in many of the older westerns, the vast majority only held six at the time without reloading.
6 Hardly any weapon fired ever exhibits any sign of recoil, that’s because there is none with the blanks that they are using.
Bugbuster,
Here’s a #7 for you (albeit not involving revolvers): submachine guns that are able to fire in full auto for a minute or more without emptying their mags, AND they are controllable with one hand. AND this 5 1/2 pound brick is carried and waved around as if it were, Gee, plastic! Perhaps this is a combination of your #5 and #6.
#8 Hero has one handgun and takes out 3 bad guys with handguns and two bad guys with submachine guns. All of them miss multiple times, but every one of his shots is right in the kill zone.
Regarding #6, there is a cool Frank Drebin/Leslie Nielsen stab at the 36 round capacity revolver cliche in one of the Naked Gun movies (or perhaps the original TV series Police Squad). Both the detective and the crook have revolvers, and they must have fired 60 shots between them.
Regarding #4, I don’t know if that holds true with top breaks or not, but I have already found a video on youtube of a dolt with his new Webley MK VI BB gun snapping it up,
Regarding #3, I think that is what is called taking cinematic license in order to make the scene even more tension-filled than it already would be. (It is almost always done in a Russian-Roulette scene.)
Michael
Michael,
In regard to #8 don’t you know that the “good guys” are always better shots? Do you remember the A- Team series and all the automatic weapons fire, I don’t recall anyone ever being killed, do you? I thought the Sledge Hammer series was pretty humorous also.
I was never a fan of top breaks and personally believe the Webley is an ugly revolver, my favorites are S&W. Even snapping a real one, which has a steel frame, closed is not a good idea. Since most replicas are made from die cast pot metal (zinc alloy),which is brittle, this moron will soon be submitting a report to someone stating that the pistol is not durable, imagine that!
I just remembered another one, sawed-off shotguns, usually a double barrel around 12″ long being fired with one hand. B.S.! My brother-in-law cleaned out houses for a realtor years ago and found one which he gave to me. It was destroyed years ago by the way. This was only a 12 gauge single barrel Savage maybe 14″ long. One day I thought I would use it to destroy a nest of ground bees (yellow jackets). I loaded it with a 2 3/4 low brass shell, probably 7 1/2 or 6 shot, held it with one hand and put the muzzle in the entrance hole. I pulled the trigger and immediately, my upper lip was rudely introduced to mister muzzle. I don’t even believe Arnold could control the muzzle flip with one hand.
And then there is that shlocky movie “The Master Gunfighter”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_Gunfighter
First, it was 90% sword fights…
Then there is the revolver (in the 1830s yet)
http://www.jabootu.com/tmg.htm
Well said. I have a Colt Model 1911 in .45acp AND a Charter Arms Bulldog Pug in .44 special. My first .44 magnum was a Ruger Redhawk. An old pal of mine that worked at a gun store told me he often sold a shiny new .44 magnum handun and a box of factory ammo to a customer, only to have him return the gun and the box of ammo with one round shot. The factory ammo can be pretty brutal. So, I was smart. Since I am a hand loader, and actually enjoy hand loading, I started off with reduced loads, and worked my way up. Worked great for me.
Birdmove,
Since my post above I have read several online articles regarding the resurgence of the .44 Special. Big bullet, manageable recoil, less chance of over-penetration . . . sounds pretty good. They are, as I understand it, low velocity for the bullet weight, so they are for short range, perhaps.
Michael
Low velocity, but big bullets. Maybe 180-240 grains. They will knock you on your butt and put a big hole in a bad guy.
Yet another reason not to get this gun. How about this? A friend tells me that he and his wife were shooting a friend’s long-barreled .357 magnum. Neither had any experience with guns, and, at the last minute, the wife decided to support the long barrel with her off-hand as if it was a rifle… There were horrific burns and the wife told me that she had a hole clear through her hand. I thought it was just from the heat, but now I see that it was from the gases directly. They had to drive some distance to the hospital, and what her state of mind was I cannot imagine.
Matt61
Matt,
There certainly could have been tiny bits of molten lead going through her as well. She’s very lucky she did not lose her hand, or at least part of it.
Michael
And that’s why IHMSA requires home made “blast shields” in their matches.
B.B.,
Proprietary mounts that only accommodate a 0.75″ scope tube? Seems like a conscious effort to sabotage a new airgun model.
The caption under your photo says it’s the NGX APX instead of NXG APX or maybe it should read, XXX XXX.
kevin
kevin,
Thanks. I fixed the typo.
Edith
I must say I am very disappointed in this rifle especially because it is intended as a starter rifle. This gun should shoot reasonably well with the ammo provided in the kit and the “off the shelf ammo” mom and dad will most likely buy for the young shooter at Wally World or Sport Authority not some high end premium pellet available only from speciality retailers like Pyramyd AIR. A gun like this is meant spark the interest of the newbe as such you should be able to “hit the bull”. The soda straw scope is a sin all similarly priced rifles inflict on new owners. At least with rifles like the Daisy 880S you can upgrade down the road to something better because those rifles have a standard dove tail mount. Umarex missed the mark with this one sorry to say. If the rifle B.B. received is typical of what Umarex is shipping a lot of kids going to be disappointed .
David
David,
You have to put today’s test into perspective. This is an inexpensive gun that I subjected to the same test as an expensive model. The designers probably meant this rifle to hit cans at 20 yards, which it will do all day long.
I tested it this way because it looked like it had some promise. And from these results, I see that it does indeed perform.
I do agree that the dovetail should be made more standard. I tried using a BKL mount, and it did hold, but it tipped forward on the rail when the screw was tightened.
B.B.
B.B.
Good point looking back at the 880S you reported on the NXG APX really doesn’t shoot worse. I do enjoy shooting bb’s at soda bottles and tin cans with my unscoped 880S. It really doesn’t pay to put a better scope on these rifles they just weren’t meant to be tack drivers at 25yds.
That BKL mount costs as much as the rifle almost as nutty as me putting a $100 Bug Buster on my 880S for giggles.
David
to all
Personally, I would be curious as to how the various pellets grouped at 25 yards using 10 pumps instead of 5. Would it be better or worse? With the additional pressure, would not the lead pellets obturate better within the bore? Just wondering. I do agree however that the rifle does show potential for it’s cost
I have been playing with an old Daisy model 856 recently which belongs to a friend of mine. I don’t know how old is, it is pellet only but it shoots surprisingly well, even with the cheap Daisy 7.9 grain wadcutter pellets bought at Tractor Supply! The range has been around 20′ or so with the OEM supplied scope. It has been too cold, wet and miserable here lately to shoot at longer ranges.
In my opinion, for new shooters, this rifle would be an excellent choice, even with the cheap, crappy Daisy pellets previously mentioned, $3.70 per 500, including tax. Initially, start at close range, and pay attention to group size. Teach them the basics, SAFETY first and foremost,( ALWAYS KEEP THE MUZZLE POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION, THEN, IF THE WEAPON DOES GOES OFF UNEXPECTEDLY FOR ANY REASON,NO HARM, NO FOUL), proper hold, breathing and trigger control. Once the groups are there, extend the range, hopefully, at some point you may have to buy a better quality pellet that exceeds their skill.
There is a very nice rifle on the market currently which some of you may not be aware of, it is of Chinese manufacture, has a very nice checkered wooden stock and is a medium powered side lever springer. It is a QB58FC, it is available in ,177 and .22 caliber. Check them out!
I’d be very interested in ten pumps, as well.
Even 5 shot groups would show how accurate it will be for “general use” and that would leave BB with the same number of pumps, albeit half of them would be tougher.
I tell you what, BB. I’ll volunteer to come out and pump for you. Just hook me up with a plane ticket and a couch for a few days. 😉 Of course, I might accidentally become barricaded into a room full of airguns and giggle continuously.
Qjay,
I believe 10 shot groups with 10 pumps per shot would be more meaningful, I think Tom would even agree and he has to do all the work, sorry Tom.
I am not so sure of that, I think that speed is very important to accuracy. More meaningful would be 10 shots at 10 pumps then 10 at 9 pumps, 8 pumps, 7 pumps, and so on.
There may be a serious difference in POI at each speed level.
Just saying.
Mike
Mike In Atl
Let me clarify my previous post. I should have stated that 10 shots with 10 pumps per shot at 25 yards would be more meaningful, at least to me. Almost, without exception, if you get good groups at a distance and shooting under identical conditions, everything being the same, any groups shot at a closer range should be smaller.
I am not sure of what you are not sure of, however, I do agree with you that there will definitely be a change of POI with each pump (more or less), especially in elevation at 25 yards. If the rifle exceeds your accuracy criteria within the ranges you wish to use it, buy it and you can have all the fun shooting it and filling in all the blanks.
A good while back there was some speculation as to whether Sam Colt was left handed or not. This was based on the placement of the capping aperature in the recoil shield being on the right side of the revolver where it was perceived as being more difficult for a right-hander to get at. Later on the loading gates for his cartridge revolvers were also on the right side theoreticaly also being slower to reload for a right-hander.
Now really, this was even sillier than the interminable “What’s Best, Revolver or Auto?” faux ‘controversies’ on the covers of the “Guns, Buns & Blammo” mags of those days. As almost any of us with even a little experience knows, a quick 90 degree flip of the wrist to the left puts the loading gate at the top where it becomes equally accesable no matter which paw you use.
However , someone did actually manufacture a mirror image peacemaker-like piece (apparently very high quality,) flipped with the loading gate and ejector housing on the left side.
It doesn’t seem to be noted if this made anything easier or quicker for anyone.
Unfortunately, I don’t remember the name of the maker but I’m sure it’s out there somewhere. I always say, “life is short, get what you want.” If that’s a left handed revolver, please go for it. (But we all do want to know how it goes, so report back, okay?)
Just as an addendum, my personal experience with right/left handed facility comes from learning Rennaissiance Fencing later in life (my fourties.) This is a sport that’s likely the closest thing to a real, honest-to-God sword fight you’re ever likely to experience. Nothing at all like that hot-house-flower of modern Olympic style fencing.
At the start, it occurred to me, while learning something entirely new, there’s absolutely nothing in our genetic make-up that makes right vs left hand any easier or more adept than the other. And it was equally easy to see some ambidextrous facility might come in handy from time to time in this endevour. Think “switch-hitting” and how it can nicely flambozzle an opponent. Anyway, for such a simple thing, it worked out very well. (See “The Princess Bride.”)
About the only guy I could never beat was an ex-Polish cavalry trooper, then in his late 70’s, who is the only guy I ever met that had actually killed anybody with a sword. (German invasion of Poland, WWII.)
No matter how smart you are, it’s hard to beat real-life experience.
Heck, a more viable excuse would be the military market.
Cavalry used a saber in the right hand, and revolvers were holstered to be drawn by the left hand. So… even in camp to reload, it is easier to leave the revolver in the left hand that drew it, and operate the ram and nipple caps with the right hand, then reholster the pistol… If one is suddenly attacked, one can drop the loading supplies keeping the gun in the left, and draw the saber with the right.
The virtues of right and left-handed use are more general in the combat sports and even beyond with switch hitters in baseball. There are benefits, but they come at a price of a generally lower level of skill at both sides. It is hard to be as good at two sides as one. So, there is a trade-off based on a lot of things including the level of your opponent and your own ambidexterity.
Interesting about the Renaissance fencing. The hard part is finding people who teach authentic techniques. The rapier was a transitional weapon between the medieval broadsword and the foil or smallsword that was specialized for thrusting. A big question is how much the rapier blade was used for cutting in addition. And did you use a dagger in the offhand? That complicates things considerably. One vivid description I’ve read describes a lot of punching and kicking to go with the swordfighting which would liven up things considerably.
You read about the Poles finding the German invaders with cavalry and other archaic weapons. Your 70 year old friend is one who seems to have made it work.
Matt61
The foil was never a combat weapon — and I believe the “small sword” was the transitional form (My weapons reference books are 18 miles away — in a house that may be rotting away [my father reported buckling panelling and mildew/mold in all the bedrooms])
The (non-sport) rapier does have a bit of an edge, but is designed mostly for thrusting through soft materials — the <> shape is quite thick relative to the edge-to-edge distance. The cutting edges are more suited for draw cuts (slide the blade along the opponent’s body) and not to chopping (slash, not hack). A broadsword <=> blade is much wider, and proportionately thinner. This makes it useful for chopping cuts (and the edges don’t have to sharper than a cold chisel… Heck Hungry surprised Sir Hilary once during a lecture: She was used to tapping a cookie tin with her custom-made sword… Then, just to discuss differences in swords, asked me for permission to do the same with Hungry (I’d loaned Hungry and Reluctant* to the SCA demo room at the convention). Hungry does NOT have an edge — a 1/16″ flat surface that won’t cut cardboard — yet she balances such that her weight under a light hacking stroke let that flat edge slice right through the cookie tin!
My rapier is 44.25″ overall, 36.25 blade, 3/4″ edge-to-edge, and 3/16″ thick. An earlier period “sword rapier” is 43.25, 37, 1.25 by 3/16.
* Hungry is a broadsword of 38.5″ overall length, 32.5″ blade that is 2.5″ wide and about 3/16″ thick, with a very heavy pommel. Reluctant is a bastard sword measuring 49″ overall, 38.5″ blade of 1.875 width and 1/4″ thick. Both were from the initial offerings by Museum Replicas Inc (five models, 500 of each produced, made in Italy by Del Tin Armoire; after the demand was proven, MRI moved most production to cheaper Windlass Steelcrafts of India)
Is Sir Hilary a woman? In tests of cutting, I cannot help but consider the question of how the Western broadswords match up against the ultimate standard, the Japanese katana. I hope, one day, to get both from Cold Steel which makes great reproductions. No less a person than R. Lee Emery has tested the two swords and found the katana to be superior. The cuts do more damage and the tanto point is better reinforced for stabbing. Does that mean that the katana is a superior sword?
Not necessarily. In the marginal discipline of hoplology, the study of weaponry, a central principle is that a weapon cannot be evaluated outside of its context for use. That sounds obvious. But for swords it means that while Japanese swords were technically more advanced than Western swords in some respects, Western armor with its metal rings and articulated plates was superior to anything the Japanese had. So, the higher quality of the Japanese sword would have been largely irrelevant in that environment. While it would do more damage against plate armor, according the Ermy test, it didn’t come close to breaking through, and that is only supposing that it got past the shields which were more extensively used in Japan. Against unarmored opponents, the symmetry of the Western broadsword made possible a wider variety of techniques than was possible with the curved Japanese blade. A lot of attention was focused on winding the blade, or rotating it around its long axis, when held against another blade to achieve leverage. And there were exotic cuts that allowed you to hit with the “inside” or back edge of the blade by surprise. A gauntlet allowed the blade to be grasped so that the heavy hilt could be used to clobber the opponent in the “murder” stroke. So for the ultimate match-up between the medieval knight and the samurai, other things being equal, it would probably depend on the skill of the individual more than their equipment.
Matt61
One of the first women to be knighted in the SCA. They never did figure out an honorific (Dame and Lady had other aspects than earning rank as an armored fighter)
The katana (and related ilk) are slicing blades, most often seen is a draw cut (even those impressive two-handed overhead chops don’t really have the blade hitting perpendicular to the target, but at just enough of an angle for a small slicing action from the shallow curve of the blade).
Western broadswords weren’t as much for slicing — and in the case of an opponent in ring or (chain) mail, much of the damage inflicted is blunt force — broken ribs, that type of thing. Again: Western is a cold (metal cutter) chisel where oriental is more a wood (carving) chisel. Nobody is going to slice a finger stroking a cold chisel — you can’t say that for the wood chisel.
Good points, and I’ll admit to never being quite as good left-handed as right handed, about 85 or 90 % by my less than scientific reckoning, but that was considerably in excess of what was necessary to whack the besnockers out of a flambozaled, less than experienced right-handed opponent. Sort of a variation on the two guys being chased by the. grizzly. “I don’t know if we can outrun this bear,” says the first guy. “I’m not worried,” says the second guy, “I just need to outrun you.”
Or to put it a bit more succinctly, “I just need to be a little better left handed than you are right handed.”
I’ll take this opportunity to stongly recommend William Goldman’s “The Princess Bride.” ( and the movie of the same name as well.). Very funny, featuring Giants, beautiful, heroic characters, the blackest of villans, amazing sword fights and rodents of unusual size.
But to illustrate my left/right thesis, from the (very edited) “Pincess Bride.”
“But one of us must begin,” said Inigo, And so saying he took up the sword and he put it in his left hand.
The man in black was also left-handed.
The touched swords. The man in black launched his assault with no warning and terrifying speed and strength.
Inigo never panicked.
“You are better than I am,” said Inigo.
“But then why are you smiling,” said the man in black?
“Because,” said inigo, “I know something you do not.”
“And what is that,” said the man in black?”
“I am not left handed,” inigo replied.
Throwing the sword into his right hand, the tide of battle turned.
There was no dealing with Inigo and the man in black was facing his doom.
“You are amazing!” he cried as inigo increased the already blinding speed of the blade.
“Thank you. It has not come without effort,” said Inigo.
“But I smile now,” said the man in black.”
“And why?,” said Inigo.
“Because I am not left-handed either,” said the man in black, and he he too switched hands.
And now, the battle was finally and truly joined
—The Princess Bride, by William Goldman, 1973. Buy it, read it, it’s way fun. The movie, too.
More later for them that’s interested
I was introduced to that movie by a friend and I remember that scene as one of its funny moments. Otherwise, I wasn’t sure of what to make of that film. Fantasy is supposed to break the bounds of reality, but this film seemed also to be playing with even the idea of fantasy. I didn’t get that bit where the hero loses all control of his body and is flopping around limp. But it’s entertaining. My favorite part was when the hero is climbing a cliff by pulling himself up a rope at about the speed that Usain Bolt runs the hundred. After that, even the left-hand bit couldn’t really surprise me.
Matt61
B.B.,
What is the advantage to a multi pump if it is a single shot gun? I’m not sure why you would need to be able to shoot a gun at a FPS less than the maximum it can generate unless of course the rifle can legitimately be used for 10 meter competition.
I guess I just don’t get the advantage of being able to shoot this rifle at 500 FPS vs. the maximum 800 FPS. Of course you don’t have to pump it as many times but if you use a break barrel you only have to cock it once, period.
Anyone can chime in.
G&G
G&G
Man I’m glad you brought this up.
One of my favorite things I like to do with a pump gun is use the amount of pumps to range the gun for different distance shooting like field target match’s. BB told of a guy (Ron or Rob Robbison cant remember the first name) that does this also withe a Sheridan if I’m remembering the gun right also. But he has a sheet sheet made up of how many pumps for a given distance. That is really some fun shooting when you do that.
And also one of the advantages of a pump gun is if your pest controlling in a barn and there is equipment that can be damaged in there. With the pump gun you can pick the velocity you need to dispatch the pest and also at the same time have the velocity low enough so if there is a pass through or missed shot on the pest you have less chance of the pellet damaging something important if you accidently hit it.
Agreed. I used consider buying the Benjamin 397 as a poor man’s Air Force Talon which could adjust power by way of pumps. There are a lot of comments about just powerful the 397 series is on all 8 pumps.
Matt61
I had a .22 cal. Benjamin pump gun when I was a kid. It was like going from a .22 cal. LR gun to a 50 cal. round compared to the 760’s and 880’s or whatever they all were back then.
All my buddy’s wanted to shoot it all the time. So the nice person that I was we would share it when we were out shooting in the woods. We would each get 3 shots at something then we would rotate the gun we were shooting to the next person.
There was 4 of us. It seemed like it took forever for me to get to shoot my gun again.
But really we had fun and I couldn’t of thought of a better gun to have at that time. And those were the days.
Yes, one blog commenter wrote that a Benjamin pump gun and ice cubes for targets was pure bliss.
Matt61
Matt61
And how could that not be fun.
🙂
G&G,
We used to have lots of mice in our home in Maryland. I taught Edith how to shoot them with my Sheridan Blue Streak, but they were so small she only needed to use 3 pumps to kill one. Eight pumps is the max, and that would have buried a pellet in our oak floors.
B.B.
Hey,
Well, all of you brought up very good reasons for a multi-pump. I never would have thought of the hunting use cause I am not a hunter (no, I have nothing against hunting I just never got into it). Thanks for all the replies.
G&G
B.B.,
I meant to include the following: I looked for one of your standard reviews of the Benjamin 397 in the archives but I could not find one. There were several articles about the 397 but none that tested the velocity and accuracy. Please point me to your review of this rifle (I have to believe you did one somewhere along the line). Again, I am specifically looking for velocity and accuracy. I appreciate it very much.
I am interested because this is a classic gun that I have been looking at a long time about purchasing. You have made several comments about this rifle possibly going out of production in the near future. I think I will end up disappointed if I don’t have one.
G&G
Here is Paul Capello’s take on the 392,different caliber but same
power plant : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35fQcuFnjR8#t=286
Hope that helps a little with your Q’s.
JTinAl,
Thank you very much, that was very helpful but I would still like to see the numbers with .177 cal.
Thanks again.
G&G
Finally found a notepad doc. that I saved over a year ago.
I got this while searching for the same info you’re looking for.
The green crosman airgun forum is a treasure trove of info
but the search function on network54 is one of the worst
I’ve had to deal with. Anyway here’s what I found to be
about the average of all the posts about stock 397’s :
Original stock 397 velocities with 7.9 grain CPL pellets:
1 pump = 273 fps
2 = 415
3 = 495
4 = 553
5 = 603
6 = 646
G&G,
I put a quality adjustable objective 3×9 scope on a Benjamin 397 using an intermount. The rifle typically gets 1 1/2″ ten shot groups at 25 yards with a variety of quality pellets.
Crosman Premier 10.5 grain pellets average 625fps for 9.1fpe with seven pumps. Six pumps average 593fps.
Depending on the pellet used, the rifle does not always exhaust all of its air after eight pumps. Plinking out to 20 yards is easily done with three or four pumps for 450-500fps.
Like others on this blog, I would like a multi-pump/on-board pump rifle based upon the Discovery/Marauder.
In the absence of a better multi-pump rifle, I’m considering trying again with a Benjamin 392 and a scope mount from Ballistic Enterprises.
Hope this information has been useful.
Sincerely,
RB
Reminds me of a story I heard about one of my cousin’s kids. (We were never able to figure out which cousin this one belonged to because no one on either side of the family would claim the relationship. It’s been many years but we still don’t know.). Anyway, it seems the kid mentioned that there was a mouse problem where he lived and someone suggested shooting them with a slingshot. Not much was subsequently heard about it until somebody remembered a year or two later and asked the kid how the mouse project was going. “Not bad,” he said, “once I figured out peanut-butter was the easiest way to catch them…but the neighbors remain a bit mystified…”
The sort of comment that you don’t think too much about but kind of nags at you.
Another year or so goes by, and someone asks the kid for clarification. “Why do you need to catch them first?”
“Well,” he says, ’cause it’s hard to load them in the slingshot otherwise.”
Turns out, he’s been using his slingshot to launch them down the street to his neighbor’s back yard where they land, not too much the worse for wear and they take up happy residence.
It would seem there’s more than one interpretation to the phrase, “Shoot them with a slingshot.”
David,
I don’t care who you are — that’s just funny! 😉
B.B.
B.B.
If you want funny, check out some of the squirrel catapult videos.
twotalon
I’m just thinking I finally have the best reason ever to get a .50 cal airgun. Mouse oughta fit just FINE….
Tom,
You have CATS! Chasing down a wascally mouse is the greatest pleasure they can have. Cats are genetically engineered to hunt little critters like that. Chase it, catch it, play with it until it is broken, get bored, go take a knap.
By the way, a lot of folks now think that whole, “Mama cat must teach the litter how to hunt for them to be able to do it” is a myth. The mama cat might need to teach it’s kitten to immediately kill it and eat it, but every cat will catch it. Some just might carry it off in its mouth, and if left alone, will not let it get away and will eventually kill it. I’ll admit, killing a mouse by having a cat smack it around is not humane, but it IS “the circle of life” Hakuna matata, hakuna matata. ;^)
(I do my hunting in the meat section at the local supermarket, BTW.)
Michael
Michael,
The cats were either not interested or else they would cripple the mouse to play with it. Edith didn’t want them to suffer.
B.B.
G&G,
If you are shooting indoors at reduced ranges and you have a pellet which is accurate with X number of pumps, say 3 to 5 as an example, why go the full 10? If the groups are there, FPS and FPE are meaningless. You will be able to spend more time shooting and less time pumping, less wear and tear on the rifle, plus, the report will be quieter.
Many years ago Speer used to market practice cartridges which could be used in anything chambered for .38 Special or .357 Magnum for shooting at reduced ranges. The cases and “bullets” were both made from plastic, both measured .695″ in length, COL 1.190, the projectile weighed 14.9 grains and was powered by a large pistol primer. With the proper bullet trap, they could used over and over again and were very accurate. Same principle, cheap, quiet shooting, much less noise than standard ammunition.
And as my father discovered — a large pistol primer was powerful enough for the plastic wadcutter to puncture the vinyl back of a dining room chair — from 20 odd feet away.
{I wonder what he ever did with those — I’d bought them around ’79 as I recall}
Baron Wulfraed,
1979 is in the neighborhood, I believe I had mine maybe a couple of years earlier than that, I shot them in the basement though. The black plastic wadcutter was very sharp, more so than any lead bullet and would cut a perfectly round hole in paper targets and apparently vinyl chair coverings also.
I just have to ask, what was your father shooting at?
Who knows… I’d just brought them home that day… Best guess is that he didn’t think the primer would be that powerful, and expected the chair to stop the wadcutter (well — it DID stop it… after it punctured the material).
I’d apparently left him the entire set when I was hired by Lockheed and moved to the PRCa — otherwise I’d have been able to use at least one with my T/C Contender .357Mag
Baron Wulfraed,
Ten to one your mother threw them away after she saw the chair!
I still have a few of them left, haven’t, used them in decades.
Must be nice living in a “safe” state as the PRCa, where you don’t have to lose sleep wondering when someone will jump out and “bust a cap in your a$$” with a .50 caliber BMG or “assault weapon” unless someone smuggled it back into the country from Mexico, thank you Eric, great job!
Considering how many sets of finger prints I had to submit to retain ownership of my measly $700 HK-91 (now insured for $2500 with accessories based on blue&red book values).
Baron Wulfraed,
It sounds almost as bad as all the paperwork necessary to posses an MG. Never fired a 91 or a 93, had a 21 once with a Navy lower which had a lot in common with the 91. It was uncontrollable, even set on three shot burst, let alone full auto. Not crazy about the fluted chambers, they sure make your fired brass ugly! Very violent ejection akin to an SKS or AK
HK-91 is semi-auto only…
I did buy the ejection port rubber buffer (and the $20 philips screwdriver with the insert for adjusting the rear sight — should have spent the $150 for the bipod)
Baron Wulfraed,
I assumed your rifle is a semi-auto version of the G3. If my memory serves me correctly, we’re talking over seventeen years ago, my HK21 put a nasty dent into the body of the cartridge case during ejection. Does your 91 do this? Does the rubber ejection port buffer alleviate this problem?
Ran out of reply indents so…
Not really. But then, that fluted chamber results in cases that would take too much time to clean and size that I never bothered…
Mostly the buffer bounces the cases forward — they land around 5-10 feet in front of the firing line, rather than annoying the next station to the right.
All guns are always loaded and always point your gun in a safe direction? Jon Erik Hexum demonstrated that the fiber wadding in a blank, as soft as it is, can be driven through one’s skull and deep into his brain.
Michael
Let me repeat: a UTG 11mm-to-Weaver adapter, costing $9 from Pyramyd, solves the scope mounting problem with the Umarex APX.
You airgun elitists can trash inexpensive multi pumps if it makes you feel superior, but that’s a big crock of BS in the real world of people on limited budgets or people who have other uses for their money.
The APX is an easy to pump, inexpensive airgun that shoots inexpensive pellets very accurately.
Must be terrible, huh?
You got to start somewhere and work your way up I suppose.
Every season has its time.
Leon,
Maybe all this talk about higher end guns has made your charge justified, Gunfun a d myself have been among the gulty with the back and forth posts about my HW50S. But I do own a few low cost guns that I still use and enjoy, one is a Gamo Recon Whisper that shoots very well for an $80 break barrel and the other is a Daisy 880S. My dissapointment withtbe NXG APX
Sorry hit post by accident
My disappointment with the NXG APX is that it was billed an an improved 880 and it really is basically just the same gun with cut away stock which doesn’t appeal to me.
David
David there are people here on the blog that have higher dollar guns than I have.
Gunfun,
I know that, most of the guns you own are in reach most. I saved for my two new guns. Now I got to start that all over again maybe next one will finally be a PCP. What I paid for both of them I could have that PCP already. Thanks I wasn’t sure whether the HW50S was the gun I should get your input helped and I am absolutely loving this gun. Put another 100 rounds through it yesterday and it is shooting groups approaching 3/8″ territory. Wow!
David
David
I’m glad you like the 50. When I was a kid I always wanted one of the exotic European air guns that I saw in my 1970 Air Rifle Headquarters catalog I got a hold of some how.
You know the Weirauch’s, FWB’s and Diana’s and such. I had my pump guns that I could verily afford but I saved up and bought them with my grass cutting money.
Well guess what I got a Diana 54 Air King around 6 years ago. Then got on the pcp kick. Then just a little while back I got my Weirauch that I never could afford when I was a kid. Yes finally a Weirauch. The HW50s.
Now a Air Arms TX that I never new existed till I found Pyramyd AIR. Then a Walther LGU.
Oh and last but not least by any means I just now tonight got my FWB 300s from RidgeRunner. (and I need to get off this computer so I can get to opening it) And yes waited along time for this one too.
So yes I’m glad that I had a chance to shoot my pump guns when I was a kid then. An all the other steps of the way that followed with airgunning
And now is that season to evolve into that next class of air guns. The sky’s the limit.
Gunfun,
My first air rifle was a Gamo Bone Collector Bull Whisper which I promptly returned for the Benji Trail NP. Really couldn’t hit squat with either so I went the multi pump route adding a 392 to the Benji. I shot the 392 better and went on to buy a Ruger Air Hawk as my first .177 cal. air rifle. Always thought I would move on to a 34 and a TX some day. But the deal on the 460 Magnum was just to good to pass on. Got the rifle and RWS 3-9×44 Night Pro with mount and rings for $450, yeah my 460 Magnum was New Old Stock with the T05 trigger but as you know from your Air King that is still a very nice trigger. Something about the HW50S just called out to me It was a few bucks less than the 34 Premium had nice open sights and it was made by the company that made the German Beeman rifles. Oh and unlike the 34 Premium it was in stock. Not sure I’ll ever get that TX now that I have the 460 Magnum but if I do it’s going to be a .22 cal that is for sure.
David
I spent yesterday shooting a 7$ P17 (Marksman 2004) that I bought from “wallyworld” in supposedly broken condition…..outfitted with a 4X Centerpoint mildot I scored for 5$.I won’t bore you with the fortune in airguns I passed on the way out the back door! My point is that airgun fun IS where you find it,and solely dependent on what YOU think of the airgun you’re shooting.FWIW,….I had a ball!!
I still shoot my 760’s from a time gone by.
Everytime I pick them up it reminds me of different times in my life.
Yep had some good times with those air guns.
FrankB,
It sounds like you may have repaired the gun you bought. Is that the case, or did you just get lucky? Or was it as simple as lubrication?
B.B.
Ha! All I can figure is that it was not the purchaser’s cup of tea……there was zero issues with it.I have never had the slightest issue with it! The only quirk is that the pins aren’t held captive so I check them from time to time.I find it really interesting that the frame has holes in the right places to put grub screws.Must have been too costly labor-wise to implement?
Gunfun,
By the way that post flew before I had a chance to edit it. I was going to just send the second part didn’t mean any offend you.
David
David no offense at all.
Leon,
I agree with you. I do not see a multipump that costs twice as much as this performing twice as well.
Real people with real-life incomes and real-life economic priorities should have relatively affordable ($70 more or less is a very big deal to too many Americans these days) things that are effective, and practical and fun. It’s part of the right to the pursuit of happiness, in my opinion. The way things are headed, in the future almost everybody will be employed but for tiny paychecks.
I think this looks like a very good value and, as you point out, the mounting issue is not an issue, although the solution ups the cost to $80. Even at $80, I think it’s a good value, especially with a holiday coupon.
I can afford better than this rifle, but I might get one anyway because it is accurate and looks like it would be fun to shoot. I LOVE it when something that is inexpensive outperforms things that cost much, much more.
Michael
Honest question.
If a person would keep buying these guns doesn’t one at some point in time wish they would of saved up for a better gun?
Its a good starter gun. But there’s far more to be had in the air gun world.
I wonder how many 760’s have been sold now. How much are they now 30 bucks or something.
There is a place for these type of guns for sure. But I’m glad all the others of better quality are out there also.
That’s what I like about air guns. All the different types that are available.
If a person sticks with air guns long enough I know they will want to advance. There is just something about them that makes that happen.
What about the guy who has a better gun already and wants a beater, don’t care if it falls over, but it’s still accurate and therefore fun to shoot, gun?
Say a guy has a Martin HD-28 but wants a $70 guitar to take camping? If he can find one with low action that will stay in tune and not fall apart under string tension, he should not buy it?
Michael
I kind of think that’s what I just said.
???
I Like mine. But, the super cheapo scope that comes with it literally fell apart on me right out of the box. The threads that hold in the objective lens retainer were broken apart, and the lens fell out right out of the box. I went with the adapters you mentioned above and mounted an inexpensive 3×9 scope with Weaver mounts. Works good. This thing does soak up the oil, and has 3-4 seals/wipers to oil each time.
I decided to try Daisy wadcutter .177 pellets (from Tractor Supply in some of my springers. I used NRA 5 meter bb gun targets (11/16 ” diameter bull) at 10 meters ,off a bag, indoors. The following guns could put 5 consecutive shots in the bull-Hy-Score 810M(Diana 65) , 6/16″ group, peep rear, blade front. Beeman C1, Winchester 600 (Brazil). Slavia 618. Daisy (Gamo) 131. My Marksman almost made it ( by 1/16″). My 10 meter plinking range has 20@ 2 or 3″@ plastic ex medicine containers for targets. They hang from strings and can be hard to hit when the wind is blowing. I would not use these pellets for formal target shooting, they seem to be adequate for plinking and training. Has anyone else tried these pellets ? Ed
Ed,
The Daisy 300 pack and the Gamo pellestI picked up from Wally World for the cheep pellet chalange grouped well with my HW50S but they varied to much in head size some and one or two actually fell out as I closed the barrel. I have had the same thing happen with .22 cal Gamo pellets in my Benji Trail NP I have 3 almost full tins of Gamo .22 cal pellets I won’t use in the Benji glad I have a 392 so the won’t go to waste.
David
I for one am not impressed at all with this gun as a 760 will shoot circles around it all day long and will accept any scope with 11mm dovetails and puts out just as fast of fps for 20 buck less. I have one I bought for my grandson and with a 4×32 bushnell 30 buck scope on it he can pick paint balls off of golf Ts at 15 yards all day long and the only mod I have done to it was to put an 80 model rifled barrel in it instead of the stock smoothbore barrel.
This NGX is the quintessential Mattelomatic if there ever was one .
it is cheap looking and the fact that the only scope that fits it is a cheap 20 year old 3/4 design toy scope is just plain ridiculous. it will never be in my list of guns to have as my two 1400s will out shoot it with ease.
BD
I have both an NPG and 760. I like them both. My NPG outshoots my 760, but I love to shoot that 760 too. It’s a late model now with over 2000 pellets gone down range with nary a hint of a problem.
Buldawg,
What you have there is no longer a 760. You want to compare out of the box stock models the Crosman 664GT or Daisy 880S would be the rifles. Price wise both the Crosman and Daisy are better deals. The 880S I own shoots well out to 15 yds then the groups start to open up, but at the shorter range my rifle is not pellet fussy. Someone wants to pay extra for the Mattelomatic let them.
David
Pa oldman
You are right in that it has a rifled barrel in if now but then so does the NGX so it is somewhat of a fair comparison and it just does not seem even logical to put a uncommon scope mounting rail on this gun that severalty limits its accuracy capabilities due to only being able to mount very cheap scopes on it. It costs 20 bucks more than a 760 also.
BD.
Buldawg,
I agree, the scope mount is not right and the price is too high. Save $10 and buy the kid a Daisy 880S. You don’t need to mount the scope newbes should learn to shoot with open sights. The 880S has decent open sights not glowie xmax color sights like so many rifles today.
David
Pa.oldman
I will agree on the gun being priced to high and the scope mount should be to a standard in use to day. but when it come to the daisy or crosman for kids I have to admit I am biased towards crosman as I had 1400 as a kid my self and still have it a today. My grandkids have learned to shoot with a 760 with open sights till they could hit what they were shooting at then went to target diopter sights until they could hit what they were shooting at with them and have made it to scopes now so I agree with you that they need to start with open sights first and move up as the master each style of sight.
BD
My NPG will out shoot my Daisy 880.
GF1
My wife sent me this picture of a mutant cat.
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/IMG_0909_zpsf0d13388.jpg
What you think of that ?
twotalon
She’s adorable! What paws! Maybe a touch of bobcat in her ancestry?
Les
Les
Just a short haired calico polydactyle. The camera setup made the feet look larger and the legs look longer than actual. But you can see lots of toes !!!!
twotalon
TT
That cat has some paws. I like the colors on the cat. Cool looking cat.
Tom,
Too bad the test has completed, because I wonder how the well-performing budget air rifle might do with the well-performing budget pellet, the Winchester Hollowpoint.
Michael
And all the hundred of other .177 pellets available.
There has to be a good one for the gun out there you would think.
Gunfun1,
A good one? You should read B.B./Tom’s report on this airgun.
Air Arms Falcons did well with the rifle at 25 yards with its limited scope. With open sights 10 Hobbies made a half inch group at 10 meters, which is impressive for any gun under $100. With BBs it is among the most accurate long guns on the market regardless of price. All this and with a coupon it’s a little over $60.
If you hate this rifle so much, I have a suggestion: don’t buy it.
Michael
What are you talking about?
How do you get hate out of that?
I read the reports. Read at the beginning of this report what I wrote.
Its in between Feinwerk and Titus Groans replies.
It ain’t got anything to do with hate.
???
Keeping in mind that the test was over so it was a moot point, I suggested one particular pellet. Your response was, “There has to be a good one for the gun out there you would think.”
That suggests that no good pellets were discovered for the NXG APX in this test; therefore, I pointed out that two pellets and BBs were indeed accurate in it.
Again, I suggested that one specific pellet might have done well, and you responded, “And all the hundred of other .177 pellets available.” Of course I knew you had read the report. I was merely responding to your sarcasm with sarcasm of my own.
Shaking Hands & Burying the Hatchet,
Michael
Why are you suggesting the Winchester pellet?
1st, a correction. I meant the Baracuda Match, not the Falcons. Wy the Winchesters? Similar in skirt length and width and, my micrometer tells me, a bit wider than the 2.5 on the tin. Also, if this is a product appealing to budget-conscious folks, then a budget friendly pellet that is accurate in the NXG APX would be very cool.
Michael
Michael
I guess it didn’t come out to clear the way I said it.
Maybe it should of went like this.
Out of all the hundred pellets out there that are available maybe there is a better one to be found.
Did I do better this time or do I still sound sarcastic?
No need for a hand shake, all good to me. I don’t get upset I just ask questions.
Oh and I would of responded sooner but I didn’t get a email notice from your reply. And didn’t check back in on this blog. I was into today’s current blog.
Gunfun1,
No hard feelings. It is often difficult for all of us both to write and read the “tone” intended.
I am very tempted to purchase one of these simply to use as a BB backyard plinker. It would be great to have even halfway decent smoothbore accuracy with enough power to reach out to 20 yards.
Michael
That’s the thing with BB testing he does. He goes through a lot of trouble to get these reports done and he’s always on a time schedule and he don’t get to spend a lot of time on all the products he tests.
That’s why I really believe there could be a even better pellet out there to be found for the gun.
And what better way for somebody learning about air guns and how pellets affect accuracy from a particular gun.
At 59 dollars I believe is what it costs sure helps out the wallet to have some extra pellet money.
If you do get one of these I would like to know if you do any pellet experimenting.
That’s my problem is I always feel there is more to be found in the way something performs. Almost a curse I guess.
Anyway I got to go see what’s up on today’s blog. Talk to you later.
While I did get some promising groups with my NPG and the Winchester hollow points, and round nose, I found other pellets threw less fliers. I would saw to try the RWS Supermags, RWS Basics, and the Crosman Premier Super Match wad cutters. I still want to try some more pellets in it.
I am really glad in reading that there is another way to get a scope on this gun. I love my MSP guns, but really like to have them scope-able. I had crossed this gun off the list after finding out you could not mount a scope on it, then back on the list after one poster said he used a 11mm to weaver adapter.
I would like to see a quality MSP gun, I don’t know why these seem to be looked down upon but they just do, they are the “kids” guns, the cheap guns whatever. I have two 2200 magnum rifles from years ago and two 2100’s, and love them all. I would love to see a good, accurate, easy to pump, MSP rifle and if it could stay under $200 I know I would be a customer, but sad to say I think I might be one of the few.
As for mounting a better scope on this air rifle, I saw a youtube video where a gent did some serious target shooting with his. He mounted an expensive electronic day and night scope on it. Here is what he used:
https://www.amazon.com/UTG-Airgun-Picatinny-Weaver-Adaptor/dp/B007BNHFLQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1499281698&sr=1-2&keywords=11mm+to+weaver+adapters
I have used these myself on another airgun, and they work. If the NXG has an odd sized scope rail, and I don’t own one of these, then maybe these adapters have enough movement to fit the rail on the NXG. I am a fan of multi pump airguns, and own a Daisy 880, Crosman 760, 1322 and 1377 carbines, Remington Airmaster 77, and Crosman Model 66. By the way, the new Remington is not the same as the old one like I have. Crosman has gone to a plastic receiver on the new Airmasters. For those that want one, you have to buy the original Crosman 2100 to get the metal receiver. The newer “Legacy” model also has a plastic receiver. The 2100 is still in the Crosman lineup, and I am afraid they will drop it for the Legacy eventually. I do not like this trend, metal to plastic, at all, despite owning some plastic airguns. Can the Benjamin 397 and 392 be far behind in this trend? They are all brass, wood, and metal, and I would love to get one. I don’t want to spend money on new airguns as my health situation has yet to be resolved. But, I do have airguns to shoot, and do that almost every day. Like motorcycle riding, shooting airguns lets me forget about my problems, for a while. And, I always keep up with BB’s blog and airguns in general.
Well, I recently did buy a Umarex APX NPG. I have a few other multi pump airguns that I enjoy. I tried a few pellets in the NPG with the open sights. My eyesight requires a scope, but I didn’t have as much trouble with these open sights as I do with most airguns. I deiced to mount the included 4×15 scope. I’ve had these before and they were always included with an inexpensive air rifle. They have all been pretty horrible, and I have always gone to a better scope. I went to mount this 4×15. I tilted the gun a bit with the muzzle down, and the front most threaded retainer on the scope fell off! Checked it out and found the threads messed up from the factory. I have a few scopes still new in the box, so I mounted one. It’s a Pinty 3×9 non-AO, red/green illuminated retticle. I used the adapters I mentioned above in a previous message here, as the Pinty comes with rings for s Weaver/Pickatinny mount. These little adapters work fine. A gent on youtube did a pretty extensive pellet test video, and he mounted a very high tech nightscope on his. That scope is probably worth 10-12n times what the NPG cost. He has done 3 videos, the second two using this scope. Here is the first one with this fancy scope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-fWPD7KRRg
I haven’t decided yet whether or not I will keep this air rifle. This guy, in his second video, backs the target out to 35 yards.
I tried BB’s in my NPG and found what I seem to find in my multi-pumpers. That is, why did I even waste my time trying them. The BB’s literally have a mind of their own, and fly helter skelter where ever they want.
So, I’m in the pellet testing stage right now. Too many fliers, too much inconsistency. I can say that the NPG soaks up 2-3 times the oil compared to my other multi’s. I have very few “premium” pellets, but tried a good number of Crosman, a couple of Winchester, some H&N Barracuda Hunters, even some Gamo Match and Daisy wad cutters, some Beeman coated hollow points, etc.
Just like in my newer plastic Crosman 760 smooth bore, the NPG shows a liking for the Crosman Premier Super Match wad cutters. Also the Winchester round nose. Best group so far from 11 yards and from a rest is a group with the Crosman’s with 5 into 5/16″. I have an impressive group with the Winchester round nose with 4 into about 1/8″, but got one minor flier which wrecked that group. These last groups, using 8 pumps. But, this thing will shoot that 4 into 1/8″, then the next two groups had no pellets touching! The Crosman’s seem a bit more consistent.
The Pinty scope is a non-AO, so I may be getting some paralax problems. However, I removed the front scope ring, and with the adjuster underneath, I focused the objective lens for the sharpest picture I could get at 11 yards. The reticle is one of those range finder types, which I don’t care for, but the sight picture is good, and I even use it at 9 power this close.
Here is another pretty in depth pellet testing video with the NPG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nl39SAaBYg&t=345s
I wasn’t going to buy any more airguns till I see how a major health problem I have gets sorted out. But, I finally decided that, I get so much enjoyment target shooting, testing pellets, scopes etc, that I would go ahead and order one of these. I shoot almost every day on my acre of land.
I picked this APG up from the Post Office a week ago this next Monday. I still may return it, but want a few more days of testing before I decide. The scope falling apart didn’t give me that warm, fuzzy feeling.
BB, if you would rather I never post Youtube videos here, say the word, and I won’t ever do it again. Just thought some of your readers would like to see these two, if the have an NPG or are thinking of getting one.
Ooops. That second Youtube video was supposed to be this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACOxXf3GuIg&t=215s
For anyone that owns this NPG, I’d suggest you get a tin of the RWS Meisterkugeln (spelling, pronunciation??) 8.2 grain rifle pellets and try them. Boy, did these tighten up my groups even more. 5 shot groups using 8 pumps rested of 1/8″-1/4″, and lots of them. I shot these yesterday, but they were at 7 yards. Why only 7? Because, 1. this air rifle wasn’t shooting very tight groups at all, hence the short distance, and 2. 7 yards is a good distance for a practical airgun purpose for me. That’s a good, workable distance for night ratting using a scope mounted red LED flashlight, and shooting rats as they go into our chicken coop at night to raid food at the feeder. I’ve even used my Crosman Model 760 smooth bore for this.
I haven’t tried any super pellets such as JSB and H&N other than the Barracuda Hunters, and they didn’t do very well. Prior to using the RWS Meisterkugelns, I was using RWS Basics and Crosman Premier Super Match. All wad cutters.