by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Ruger 10/22 rimfire rifle
- AirForce Airguns Talon SS
- The test
- The results
- Bottom line
- The surprise
- A goldmine of data!
- The results
This report tested the relative accuracy of an AirForce Talon SS against a Ruger 10/22 rimfire. I went to the range several times to shoot all the 10-shot groups I needed, so it took some time to get to today’s report.
I had a preconception of how accurate a Ruger 10/22 was, and I knew very well how accurate an AirForce Talon SS was. I figured the Ruger didn’t stand a chance against the air rifle. If I’d used any of the standard Ruger 10/22s I have shot up to this point, things would have worked out as I expected.
Ruger 10/22 rimfire rifle
But the rifle I used in this test was chosen because it surprised me with its accuracy. I got it in trade at a gun show and was surprised when I saw how well it shot. In fact, it was the accuracy of this rifle that inspired this test to begin with. I have owned a number of 10/22s and shot many others; but until this rifle came along, I’d never seen a standard Ruger right out of the box that shot this well.
The Ruger 10/22 Sporter is surprisingly accurate.
I’ve also owned a 10/22 Target, which is Ruger’s best attempt at making an accurate rifle right out of the box. That one was very accurate and had a better trigger than the rifle I’m using in this test — 4.40 lbs. against 6+ lbs. for the Sporter. But even that rifle was not as accurate as this stock Ruger Sporter. The best 50-yard 10-shot group fired with the 10/22 Target with 8 different brands of ammo — each shot 3 times for record (240 shots in all) — was 0.608 inches between centers.
My 10/22 Target was an accurate rifle, but not as accurate as this Sporter.
I even own a highly customized 10/22 that has been worked on in many ways and has a custom bull barrel. Over $800 in upgrades has been spent on this rifle, yet not even it can do as good as what I’m about to show you. The Talon SS probably could not have been challenged by a more worthy opponent than this Ruger Sporter!
My customized 10/22 above and the standard carbine below. Even when $800+ was poured into the Ruger, it still couldn’t perform as well as the standard Sporter!
Johnny Hill of Tin Starr Bullets told me the reason my Ruger is so accurate is because it doesn’t have a barrel band like you find on a Ruger 10/22 carbine. Several blog readers mentioned that in the comments to Part 1. I read those comments, but it didn’t register. But, boy, it does now!
AirForce Airguns Talon SS
My Talon SS is the same one I’ve owned since the beginning of 2001. I installed a 24-inch optional .22-caliber barrel on the SS, and I have an aftermarket bloop tube silencer (frame extender — mounted to quiet the report). Besides that, the gun is stock. Stock, as in 14 years old and still using all the same parts that came with it. Though I know how to rebuild this air rifle, I’ve never been inside this one — neither inside the trigger nor inside the powerplant or valve.
My Talon SS is stock, except for the 24-inch barrel and frame extender that muffles the sound.
The longer barrel lets me dial back the power and still get great velocity. That means I get more shots per fill, which is my goal.
For this test, I shot each rifle 10 times at 50 yards. I used the most accurate pellet I know for my SS, which is the JSB Exact Jumbo that weighs 15.89 grains, and I used the CCI Standard Speed long rifle cartridge in the Ruger. Each gun fired ten 10-shot groups at 50 yards. All shooting was done from a rest on windless days when conditions were absolutely ideal.
Three best Talon SS groups
The 3 best Talon SS groups measured:
Three best Talon SS groups. From the left — 0.696″, 0.706″ and 0.843″.
The 3 best Ruger 10/22 groups measured:
Three best Ruger 10/22 groups. From the left — 0.545″, 0.65″ and 0.69″.
All groups — center-to-center
The worst Talon SS group measured 1.326 inches. The worst 10/22 group measured 1.107 inches.
These are the worst groups shot by each rifle. Talon SS on the left and Ruger 10/22 on the right. 1.326″ and 1.107″, respectively.
The Talon SS averaged 1.013 inches for 10 shots across all 10 groups. The Ruger 10/22 averaged 0.892 inches for 10 shots across 10 groups. On average, the Ruger’s groups were 0.121 inches smaller than those of the Talon SS.
The Ruger was more consistent (shot smaller groups) than the Talon SS in this test. The SS had two very large groups that were 0.326 inches and 0.296 inches greater than one inch in size, while the Ruger’s largest group was only 0.107 inches over one inch. That was where the air rifle lost most of its ground.
Can I explain why the SS shot those 2 large groups? One reason might be because the pressure was falling in the reservoir. I shot 3 groups per fill on power setting 8, which should give me 40 good shots. Because of that, I felt safe shooting only 30 shots per fill.
Even though all shots were fired in the range that was considered safe, at some point in the power curve, things might be less stable than they are at other points of the curve.
Consistency is what I was testing in both rifles, along with accuracy. At the same time the SS reservoir pressure was dropping, I was also testing the consistency of the CCI ammo in the Ruger.
I’m surprised by these results. Not that the SS did poorly, because I don’t think it did. You shoot ten 10-shot 50-yard groups with a PCP and see what you wind up with!
I didn’t pick and choose which groups to show you — these are10 groups from both rifles, just as they were shot.
I’m surprised by the consistency of this particular Ruger 10/22. I know the 10/22 is a very popular firearm — one that I’ve tested extensively for other articles. But this particular rifle is performing beyond my expectations for all 10/22s.
To be fair, I’ll include the CCI ammunition in my statement of surprise. The CCI ammo is almost as consistent as the best target ammunition. I’ve tested CCI ammo in 10/22s for years, and this is the first time I’ve gotten results this good.
What you can do with this report is pit your own 10/22 against mine and see what happens. Or pit your best PCP against what I’ve done with the Talon SS and see how well you can do.
I doubt there are that many box-standard Ruger 10/22s that can equal this one, but I know for a fact that each and every Talon SS that comes out of the AirForce factory can do what you see here. I tested them extensively during the 3 years that I worked there; and in all that time, I found only one barrel (from thousands) that wasn’t this accurate. And that problem was fixed in 5 minutes with a barrel change!
A goldmine of data!
What I now have is a good baseline on this particular Talon SS. I can use that in other tests. For example, I can shoot several 10-shot groups with my SS mounted with an Aeon scope at 32x, and several more 10-shot groups — shooting half the shots at 8x and the other half at 14x. That will reveal if there really is scope shift as the scope’s power is changed — the way it seemed in Part 4 of the BSA Supersport SE report.
I also have an idea of how to test the Bullseye ZR scope mount used in the same article. But I’ll save the particulars of that test design until I think about it some more.
A test like this one takes a lot of time to conduct and even more to compile and write. I probably have 16 total hours invested in today’s blog. They’re good hours, though, because they’ve advanced our understanding of a number of things we often take for granted. That’s the most valuable result a test like this can produce.
97 thoughts on “Talon SS versus Ruger 10/22: Part 2”
Interesting blog today. I was surprised by the results. CCI standard velocity is typically good stuff, but off the shelf Ruger 10/22s can be a mixed bag. I have a 10/22 Sporter model that shoots five shot groups with your gun, but only after some aftermarket mods. I may have to try some 10 shot groups just to see what it will do. Looking forward to more posts in this blog series.
Great blog, BB!
I have really been looking forward to seeing this big finale; it must have been tough forcing yourself to go out and spend 16 HOURS doing this kind of tough shooting!
It does actually make me want to take a more run-of-the-mill .22 and a more average airgun out to do some target practice. the 10 10 shot groups with a couple of .22 rifles; maybe a 10/22 and an old school JC Higgins and an antique Stevens single shot… or a Marlin Papoose, Henry AR 7, and a 10/22 takedown to make things a little more “fair” and compare them to a Benjamin 392, a Crosman Vantage .22, and a “Beeman” Silver Kodiak X2 with the .22 barrel on it. Heck, maybe even a Gamo Big Cat or a Shanghai B1 or B3 in .22 would be fun to add in…
Does anyone have an extra $1500 or so?
Well, nevermind, I’ll just have to go use some of the stuff I already have…
The best part about this test, is it is something just about anyone can already do using guns we probably already have. This might FINALLY justify the “added expense” of a chrony! Sweet!
Then imagine the pistol tests! Whoo, get out the Hi-Standard, a Browning Buck Mark (I’d love to compare the powder to the air on a 10M range) and…
I know this seems expensive if you don’t own any of the guns that were used, but really I was just using what I had. I chose the Talon SS because it is a relatively low-cost PCP that I had owned for a long time, and I chose the 10-22 because it is the rifle that more shooters own than any other. Or at least they talk about it more.
I didn’t go out of my way to make this an expensive undertaking.
>I doubt there are that many box-standard Ruger 10/22s that can equal this one
I’m not sure about that these days, B.B.. I’ve seen a good number of new 10/22s purchased by new Appleseed participants for use as “LTRs” (Liberty Training Rifles). Most of the shooting and my observations are based on the Appleseed 25 m /28 yard range and scaled AQT targets for that range. I can’t prove it but I suspect the barrels on 10/22s have become more accurate over the last several years (and perhaps the barrels on their rifles in general). Personally, I own four Ruger rifles–two 10/22s and two Hawkeye 77s. A buddy of mine sold his beautiful Number 1 simply because my cheaper Hawkeyes shoot so much better than his older and very nicely finished Number 1!
On the other hand, I still don’t consider 10/22s to be particularly accurate rimfire rifles. Though it’s a bit of an apples and oranges comparison (semi-auto vs. bolt action repeater), a less expensive Savage 93 in 17 HMR can usually out-shoot a 10/22 by a good margin and oftentimes out-shoot much more expensive Anschutz and CZ 22LRs. Of course you’ll spend more on 17 HMR ammo–even these days with hyper inflated 22LR ammo prices.
I agree completely. This 10-22 is definitely a ringer. I chose it partly to see just how good it is. I guess I found out!
BB, in a nutshell…your super accurate Ruger is probably some years old. Yes, they don’t make them like they used to. I have the opinion that the modern Ruger 10/22 is highly overrated, and a very poor platform for a custom build.
Sorry, hope I don’t open up a can of worms here…
My shooting buddy, Otho, and I were discussing that very thing yesterday. He thinks this Ruger is a very rare bird as well.
I do believe I am going to invest some money in a trigger to improve the rifle a little. Ruger has one they just brought out that seems to challenge the big boys for not too much money.
I know you clocked in 16 hours doing this report but your ruger is highly modified and will therefore not live up to a stock ruger which is present to us reguler guys. So overall its pointless you did this report. I am new but i threw my opinion in since its a BIT logical.
Are their any airsoft rifles that can be used for target practice. Our customs rules are a bit elated therefore i decided to say bye to pcps and then the springers.I have a price limit of about $150 but may extend upto $200.
You must have missed it but I said several times that this Ruger is not modified in any way. It is just as it came from the factory. What makes it different is how accurate it is. It doesn’t shoot like a standard Ruger. The Talon SS does shoot like all other Talon SS rifles.
Yes, there are airsoft guns that can be used for target practice. Look at the sniper rifles. I don’t know what kinds of airsoft guns you can buy in India, but if you can also buy aftermarket parts, most of these guns will accept a tighter barrel, which is the key to accuracy in airsoft.
how can you afford all these guns.are they gifts for testing.or do you have a good income..it seems most of your testing are high end guns..but i still like to read your blog. many thanks!
Welcome to the blog.
I sense that you are a younger shooter? I struggled for many years when I had a family to provide for, so I understand the comment. But I am now almost 68 years old and time, and some very good trading, has allowed me to amass a nice collection.
The guns I test for this blog are loaned to me by Pyramyd Air. I return them after writing my reports. They have found that their customers feel better buying certain airguns when they know what to expect. Occasionally I will buy an airgun that I test, but that is rare.
And finally, I don’t always test high-end guns. I have tested a great many low-cost airguns in this blog over the past 10 years. Look around the archives and see what has been done.
Every once in a while you happily run into a rifle that shoots way better than it should. I have a Remington Nylon 66 that will shoot a ragged hole at 25 yards with Federal Bulk Pack HP’s. But, it will only shoot like that with this ammo.
Even the Wolf Match Extra isn’t as good in this rifle. You just never know..
your results are amazing. I’m very impressed with the Talon’s 50 yard results. A great bargain for a PCP indeed. With it’s interchangeability in barrels, tank fittings, stocks and so on, it could be considered the “Ruger 10/22” of pcp’s. One quick question, on the 10/22, were you feeding the rounds manually like one would do in bench rest competitions or did you shoot from a loaded magazine?
I used the magazine. There was one failure to feed out of 100 shots, and that bullet got damaged, so it wasn’t used.
Somewhat unrelated, although this report is 50 percent about a PCP airgun, so only slightly off-topic.
Most of us here have come to believe that despite the lawyer written sections of manuals and traditional wisdom, CO2 guns can be stored for years with CO2 in them with no harm to the gun. Springers, well once cocked, the clock starts ticking, except for gas piston ones.
But what about multi-pumps such as the Benjamin 392 and Sheridan Blue Streak? I’m not referring to the two or three pumps put in them for storage, but perhaps six pumps or so.
And what of PCPs? Is it OK to store one long term with, say, 2300 psi in the reservoir?
Preferable — if you drain it back to zero for storage and then refill later you are putting more stress on the reservoir (most PCPs have small enough reservoirs that they miss out on the Federal hydrostatic pressure check; but not the AirForce tanks — they are supposed to be tested every five years [mine are probably coming due, even though I’ve only cycled them about three times each — mostly due to having to empty them so I could transport across country; going from near sea level to the heights of the Rockies and Great Divide would have been risky).
I wouldn’t even be certain of that — based upon owning three three vehicles using gas struts to hold the tail gates open… I’ve had to replace those struts every 5-7 years as they eventually leak down from being in a compressed state most of the time — they work okay in 80deg weather, but fail to hold the hatch up when it drops into the 40s.
Time to go to work, when I let something like “… three three…” get past me
You will find the vehicles that the gas struts tend to fail most on are the one with the rod end facing up so that the gas stored in the shock body is allowed to very slowly over time seep out and there by losing the required pressure to hold the hatches open.
If your vehicles mounting of the struts will allow them to be mounted with the rod facing down and body end up in the closed position you will never have to replace them since the gas cannot seep out the closed end of the strut like it does around the rod when it is mounted rod end up.
Sorry — my Jeep Cherokee is the example that disproves your statement… The stowed position is vertical with the cylinder part upper, and the piston shaft below… And even configured to be nearly vertical with the tail gate up and in the same relative position (unlike at least one prior vehicle where the strut angle was \ when stowed and / when opened)
I guess I should have stated that it gives a longer life span as nothing last forever.
But my 45 years experience as an auto tech I replaced far more gas struts the had the rod end facing down the facing up.
It is the same with any type of spray aerosol whether its paint or brake clean or what have you if you store the can upside down the gas propellant cannot leak out over time as easily and the aerosol will last much longer then if stored upright where the gas propellant can and does seep out past the spray head seal.
Meant rod end facing up than facing down.
I store my Talon SS with 3,000 psi in the reservoir at all times. It has lasted since 2001 that way. PCPs SHOULD be stored with air in them.
Multi-pumps are different. Their valves aren’t made to contain high pressures for a long time. While one pump of air can be contained for many years, 8 pumps should be fired as soon as convenient. Failure to do so can stress the valve seats and extrude the soft parts of the valve seals.
OK, thanks. I have two Marauders that have probably never had less than 1600 psi in them, and they have had about 2300 in them for quite some time now. I always put three pumps in my multipumpers. but from now on, I’ll go with just one for storage. (Hey, now I have a good excuse to go down into the basement and shoot a couple rounds!)
Off topic. Do you know of an open rear sight, preferably, receiver sight that can be attached to the BSA Mercury springer? The only ones I can locate require being slid on from the rear but the BSA dovetail groves do not extend to the rear of the receiver. I’d also get one of these for my Crosman 140 (actually the Sears model) with the dovetail not extending to the rear of the receiver.
Appreciate any information you have.
Specifically, no, I don’t know of any sights for the Mercury. The high hump of the BSA’s relatively narrow spring tube makes it difficult for the jaws of a peep sight to grab the dovetails, because the sight high-centers on the tube.
Of course you can take the action out of the stock and remove the plastic end cap to see if the sight will just slide on the dovetails.
You can’t do that with a Mercury Tom, it has a screw off receiver end/trigger unit, the same part as the airsporter, which used to set your scope rather forwards in the days of rather smaller airgun scopes, in fact getting a peep sight, which I assume he wants, to fit would be a challege and would probably need a stock mounting, the only other thing I could suggest, if he’s happy with a v notch is an HW77 rear sight which will fit the dovetails and at least give a longer sight radius than stock.
Check out the Williams AG receiver sights, they will open up wide enough to slip over a plunge cut dovetail. If the bottom your dovetail cut is less than .125″ to the top of the spring tube you are good to go. The actual clamping length of this sight is 15/16″, overall length 1 and 25/32″ which includes aperture. What is the diameter of the spring tube and end cap? The only problem I can imagine would be that the aperture my be too far forward for this installation, but they also make one with a U notched blade. I prefer the ones with the target knobs.
Thanks, ordered the Williams AG sight. If by chance it doesn’t work on the BSA Mercury, I have all kinds of .22’s and other air guns. that it can be used on so nothing lost.
I REALLY, appreciate the reply, I have done this several times in the past on these blogs and in too many cases, I never even received a response of any kind, a little etiquette goes a long way, I believe. I have been remiss myself on a few occasions, mostly because the responses were too asinine. Anyway, I gave you the best dimensions as I could from my sight, hopefully, it will work on your rifle, it is a nice but somewhat expensive one.
For what it is worth, I have a machinist background and appliance technician, if you have a problem, let me know, I will help you as much as I can , no B.S., if I don’t know, I will tell you that.
Thanks for your comments. I’m kind of a self taught machinist, I guess that means amateur, but I do have my own lathe, vertical mill, etc. Enjoy rebuilding old air guns and doing gunsmithing mainly on cowboy action guns.
Hey, you have to start somewhere. I love working with metal, but not wood. A friend of mine told me years ago that a German friend of his told him that wood is alive till you burn it, very true. It constantly expands and contracts when exposed to the elements, which can play havoc with a full stocked rifles accuracy. If you insist on a wooden stock, laminate is the best way to go, that is my opinion. I will take function over beauty every time and have no problem with synthetic stocks, that’s me, on rare occasion, you can get both.
I have two lathes, but no milling machine. One is an old South Bend and a Jet 1340GHE, fortunately, I have access to some good mills and a close friend of mine has a tool grinding business.
Two questions for you, which model sight did you order and when you say “cowboy action guns” do you mean SAA’s ?
I bought the Williams 5D-AG. I don’t need the target knobs so all the Williams receiver sight I have ar the 5D models.
I tune up or repair the Colt Single Actions, Ruger Single actions, Model 1897 shotguns, and mainly Marlin lever actions but will work on the Winchester clones. I’m turning 75 in May and have real slowed down my Cowboy Action shooting so that work is really way down.
I was given a broken air rifle last year and sort of fell into working on air guns when I fixed the air rifle. Since then, I’ve accumulated about 20 more to repair. However, one is a Marksman Plainsman that needs a pump lever so may never get repaired. Two have CO2 leaks that so far are resisting my efforts to fix. Without looking at my gun list, I think right now I have 38 operational air guns.
Before you go crazy, you need to know that some of the vintage CO2 guns and pneumatics have pinholes in their reservoirs from the casting process. These can never be sealed because the leaks cannot be found.
Pinholes may explain one of the guns. However, my Crosman 1077 was working fine. It was made in May 1995. When it started leaking, it was all of a sudden. I replaced the seals. Funny thing, it leaks very slowly when the CO2 cartridge is installed. I can still get one to one and a half magazines fired before it doesn’t have enough power to fire a pellet. But, if I leave the CO2 cartridge in the gun, a week later it still has enough CO2 in the cartridge to move a tissue around on the work bench. It does not leak all the way to empty. So far, its a mystery as to why.
The 1077 is too new to have the pinhole problem, plus it isn’t made from cast metal.
The problem is a small particle of dirt, or more likely a very small pinhole in one of the seals. I would suspect the o-rings first.
At high pressure the seal deforms enough to leak. When the pressure drops below a certain point, the seal closes and leaks no further.
Let me know if the Williams sight works on your BSA Mercury when you receive it.
Do you notice any appreciable peining of the cylinder bolt notches on SAAs that have been fanned a lot and what is your opinion on these new Gletcher replica CO2 BB guns?
Perhaps you can help me out here,I have two AGs I am trying to get back on line, a Daisy Powerline 922 and a Crosman .357 CO2 revolver. I would like to totally reseal both, but the Daisy also has several minor plastic parts that have partially disintegrated or broken over the years. The round, flimsy bolt knob on it broke off many years ago and I made a new one out of solid brass with the same profile as the op-rod on an M- carbine.
I haven’t noticed appreciate pining of SAA notches. I don’t know anyone that really fans the guns. In Cowboy Action, many of us may slip hammer the guns and some can fire VERY fast that way. If the bolt is functioning properly and the SAA is not out of tune, the notches don’t normaly cause problems.
The only replica guns I have are a PPKS and a Gamo P23.. Both are fun guns with no trouble yet. I just bought three of the replica SAA Tom wrote up here on the blog. But, they are for my grown sons for Christmas and sit on the closet shelf unopened. The best information I find on most of the air guns comes from Tom’s blog and write ups by Jim Chapman.
Seal kits are available for the Crosman 357. My 357 was gotten in a trade and was filthy, but works fine, so I haven’t worked on it. The Daisy Powerline 922 should be repairable. Contact Daisy for parts and user manual. Daisy should have parts. I haven’t worked on a 922, but many of the parts are probably the same as in the 880, 822, 22G, etc so you can get parts.
So we don’t tie up the blog, I’ll be glad to help any way I can, so send me an e-mail if you desire. firstname.lastname@example.org
Thanks for your help, I entered you email address into my contact list first thing this morning! I am not familiar with the term “slip hammer”, could you explain that please?
As distasteful as this my be to you, I believe that you should at least run a CO2 cylinder, pellgun oil and BBs through all three SAAs, since they only carry a 90 day limited warranty. That will be long gone by Christmas!
Which are your favorite air rifles? Which power plants do you prefer?
Please let me know if the cylinder on the SSAs is steel or pot metal, I’m thinking the latter.
The SAA do not have steel cylinders. Went ahead and checked out each and they are functioning fine.
Slip hammer is similar to fanning, just not a hard on the gun. With two hand hold, off hand moves hammer to rear while shooting hand holds trigger back. Gun fires when hammer slips out from under the off hand thumb. Some people are good enough to actually slip hammer with just the shooting hand, but its harder to do accurately in my opinion.
My favorite air rifle has become my Marauder .25 cal., but I enjoy shooting my FWB 124, BSA Mercury, and my Blue Streak and Silver Streak Sheridans. My Crosman 140 and Benjamin 392 aren’t bad either. My Crosman 2240 with shoulder stock and 14″ barrel with HIPAC adapter is also fun. I usually shoot the 2240 on CO2, but can also use 2000 psi air. Of course, the Crosman 1077 is fun if I can ever get the CO2 leak problem solved. Heck, I like to shoot most of the air guns I have at one time or another.
Has Ruger gone to hammer forged barrels as opposed to button rifled ones as they had originally used in the past? I know personally that some of their older rifles were not nearly as accurate as I believe they should have been.
Were the present groups from your Talon SS as good as they had been from previous testing? The pellet that you show on the target of the worst group appears to show oxidation, the one on the best did not, could that have caused a negative effect on accuracy? What was the approximate muzzle velocity with this pellet in your rifle?
Ruger hammer-forges their Target barrels. I don’t know if they make the other barrels that way, but when a company spends $750,000 per rifling machine to hammer forge, it seems to me they will rifle all their barrels that way. And hammer forging is much faster.
As far as the corroded pellet versus the shiny one — I don’t know the answer. Both pellets came from the same tin.
Interesting blog that brought back memories of shooting my old Remington 521T (.22 lr) equipped with Lyman peep sights. Amazing accuracy.
Those are impressive 50 yard groups from both the 10/22 and the Talon SS.
Interesting that the Talon SS prefers 15.89 grain JSB’s.
When B.B. talks about groups shot with an Airforce Airgun I’ll never forget his 1.003″ group shot with a Condor SS at 100 Yards using 18.1 grain JSB’s.
This report may be the final nudge I needed to buy the Talon. I am ready to purchase my second PCP and if this accuracy is typical from them I can’t wait to try one. Are the Air Force Condor and Talon as pellet sensitive as some Marauders?
That is an incredible Ruger 10/22. I have owned four myself and counting the ones owned by my Son, Brother, two Nephews, and Cousins can say I’ve fired nearly ten more. None of them would shoot groups like that from the factory.
I wouldn’t call any AirForce guns pellet-sensitive. But they do have their favorites. I shoot the Talon SS with the 24-inch barrel because it gives me a smooth and accurate 30-34 foot-pounds and 40 shots per fill. If I want power I can get up to 45 foot-pounds but the accuracy suffers a bit.
But I find that the Condor also does its best in the 36-45 foot-pounds range rather than the 65 foot-pounds it can produce at the top.
The Ruger is a one in a thousand gun. I just lucked into it in a trade with a dealer who never shoots the guns he sells.
What did you trade for that Ruger? Seems like you may have gotten the best end of that bargain?
As I recall, it was a .22 Hornet that was probably a Stevens.
Sounds like its worthwhile to remove the barrel band from the standard Ruger 10/22. I’ve admired the Ruger 10/22 target model, but I now think that is confusing the original design intention of a handy, balanced carbine. With the target model you get more accuracy but not as much as a real target rifle, and you lose the handling characteristics. If I ever bought this gun, it would probably be the stock model which is still impressively cheap.
I continue to be amazed at the lack of .22LR ammo out there. Where is all going?!!
I surfing the net and cam across a home-made lead-dipper that looks to be a very practical design that would keep any dross out of the pour.
I think I have a couple of empty Co2 cartridges in the project-box – if I do I’ll put one together and let you know how well it works.
That’s interesting but I din’t think it holds enough lead. A good dipper should hold about 5 times what the bullet weighs and some of my bullets would fill that dipper with only 2 bullets.
5 times the weight… some pretty big bullets eh!
Agree, thinking about casting large jigs and fishing weights (1 to 3 ounces) I would use my larger ladle and that would hold about 5 times the capacity I needed and that was more to keep the heat-mass up than to fill the mould cavities.
Still thinking about getting a big-bore pellet rifle and casting bullets for it. I have around 45 pounds of pure lead sitting doing nothing – wouldn’t want to neglect that!
B.B., I’ve had several 10/22 and none were that good! You did get a ringer. I’ve had one of those type guns before. I bought a old junky looking Winchester Mod. 60 pump in 22lr. It was loose, no finish and very worn. But that gun was so accurate, you’d just have to see it to believe it (kind of like your 10/22). I can’t explain why. That was my first Winchester 60 pump, so, I assumed they all shot that good. Well I saved my money, sold that one and bought one that “looked” like new. When I shot it, I was so disappointed! It shot like, well like a Winchester pump should have. Just ok. I tried several more, trying to get the accuracy that I had in the first one. Never happened. I wish I could have that “ringer” back. Live and learn. Bradly
This is a lesson I had to learn over the years. I have had so many accurate guns and thought I could always get more like them. Needless to say, this 10-22 will probably not become available until my estate sale.
Don’t say that… Some unscrupulous silent reader might seek to speed that event <G>
Second that,….you still got alot of “newbies” and “oldies” to teach. 😉
P.S. Tried different lighting and got better spreads with the 15.89’s. Results in future. Still “got to do it 10 more times”, as the Doctor ordered. 😉
Once again you’ve demonstrated just how good air rifles are. I’ve read too many of your articles to count. You are a great ambassador for the airgun community.
I’d like to formally thank you for all the writings and reviews you’ve done. Before I’ve purchased any of my air rifles, I’ve researched what you have to say about the models I’ve considered purchasing.
I’ve never owned a PCP rifle before but wanted one to compliment my RWS 34 and Benjamin 392. I scoured the internet for your reviews and what other Forum members had to say about different rifles. Based on your extensive knowledge, articles, and videos, this weekend I ordered an AirForce Talon SS in the 177 caliber. I almost exclusively shoot targets in my backyard under 30 meters in range. I’m planning to order a 24-inch 22 caliber barrel caliber barrel to use for longer range shooting when my wife and I go camping. I don’t hunt anymore and have a rule of don’t shoot it if you won’t eat it.
Thanks again BB. I love how you put out reviews from everything from pumps, pellets, and guns. I’ve benefited greatly from your writings.
Thank you for all those compliments! That makes everything worthwhile.
I think you will really like the Talon SS. And even though you don’t hunt with it, I bet that 24-inch .22 barrel becomes your favorite — just because of what it does to the gun.
I was at a field target match Saturday in Tennessee and we had a guy with an 11ish FPE TX 200 shoot about a 1 inch group in the wind warming up. In the match, I saw him hit shots at 45 or 50 yards with nary a miss and score a 50/60- He’s been shooting for 20 plus years. I was full of confidence and thought I was going to double my score but I haved it instead 🙂 but I had fun.
Interesting test, BB. I wonder if the difference between the 2 groups might be explained by the quality and consistency (bullet to bullet) of the CCI ammo you used? I shoot mostly JSB and H&N pellets and I do notice that some (very few) pellets are not quite “perfect” due to a tiny nick here or there or a slight bend in the skirt. When I read your results, it was the first thing that crossed my mind. Mind you, as you pointed out, those are not shabby groups with an AG at 50 yards.
Welcome to the blog.
Of course the only way to know if that is right is to test it. Have you ever tested your theory?
I have tested but not rigorously. Maybe I need to do that.
Tom, sorry to post this question here for it pertains to the Colt peacemaker and not the talon vs. 1022. I was looking for an email address to you specifically but could not find it, however I guess it might be nice for fellow readers to weigh in.
I have noticed with shooting the peacemaker (over 10 -12g CO2 cylinders worth) that two shots out of six kick way out. I draw a 1 1/2″ circle on an index card and shoot at 15-16 feet. Oddly one kicks up and to the left nearly at the same impact point. So I shoot six, one goes up to the left, after reload all six “cartridges” one of the next six kicks up and to the left almost in the same hole. The other problem shot goes down and to the right but not as consistently. There are two cartridges that shoot very close together nearly dead center. If I only shoot those two shells six times I can get them into a very tight less than 3/4″ group, rested of course. And it’s consistent over many strings of shots.
Naturally by looking at them, there is no obvious problem or difference in appearance of the six cartridges.
so I am guessing that these Cartridges are not equal. Given the design of the gun, I don’t see how this is happening. Any thoughts?
1) have you marked the “cartridges” so that you always put them into the same orientation?
2) have you marked the cylinder so that they are always put into the same position?
3) after all these markings, determine first that it is always the same combination (cartridge 1 in cylinder hole 1, etc.)
THEN rotate the cartridges around one position.
If the effect moves with the position, it can be blamed on the cartridge, otherwise it is likely the cylinder (mis-timed/offset)
I will try that. I think I can test the cylinder with the two that shoot dead center. And rotate them through the positions. Then as last resort do all the shells. Really a lot of trouble for just a can plinking pistol but it has peaked my interest. It sure is a lot of fun to shoot even with the couple BBs kicking out. When I think about it. When I repeatedly shot the two, I was probably putting them in the same position of the cylinder.
You can always post on the current page — we don’t worry about the topic.
I don’t know what is wrong. But I would identify those cartridges and set them aside. Then I would start shooting just those two and see if by rotating them in the chambers (mark the base with a Sharpie) the thrown shots can be moved.
The same thing happens with centerfire cartridges and this is what is done. But you need different cartridges if they are the problem.
Curious about one point. What confidence level would you want to use to determine that the two groups were “statistically significantly different”?
A typical confidence level is 95% which means that once in twenty such experiments that you’d be fooled into believing that there was a difference when there wasn’t. Of course that means that you’d often miss a “small” difference. So other tests could be designed to detect at least a 10% relative difference.
At the 95% confidence level I don’t think that the results indicate that the Talon SS and Ruger have different group sizes.
Estimating the bootstrap statistics quickly it seems that there is a about a 33% chance that the Talon SS is better than the Ruger. There are 10 group sizes for each so 10*10 or 100 combinations. 33 combinations of the group size have Talon SS better than Ruger if I added correctly.
Ugh… There is a 33% chance that one random group from Talon would be better than one random group from Ruger. You have a sample of ten such groups so the odds would be lower than 33% that the Talon would have a lower average size than the Ruger.
So proper bootstrap with a sample of 10, or making the assumption of normality could be used for determining if there is a significant difference.
Ok, Did bootstrap by sampling Talon SS values 10 times and Ruger 10 times. Take average of 10 values for each and calculate the difference. Did this 30 times using a sample of 1000 each of the 30 trials. The sampling is with replacement. Programmed whole thing in Excel.
Get average difference of 0.121 inches with a standard deviation of 0.091 inches.
(0.121- 0) / 0.091 = 1.33 std dev.
A 95% confidence interval would be 1.96 Std dev, so the difference is not significant at the 95% confidence level using bootstrap method.
I always go for the 95 percent level of confidence. I didn’t do the math on this but I hope you are right. My gut tells me that the Ruger is really better, though.
The whole point of statistics of course is to try to mathematically verify what your gut leads you to believe. You can’t “prove” anything with statistics, just infer with some degree of probability.
1.33 std dev is a little better than 80%. So under the experimental conditions cited, the Ruger is probably better than the Talon SS. However to confirm this at the 95% Confidence Level, you’d need more groups.
The point is that small sample statistics are poor. In general you need more data than most shooters gather, which leaves them chasing their tail. Imagine the frustration of a shooter who shoots one 10-shot group with each. One day the Ruger is better, another the Talon SS is better.
Taylor & Grubbs’ paper gives a 95% confidence interval for group size in Table 2 in terms of std dev.
Lower 2.5% = 2.482
Upper 2.5% = 5.409
2.482/3.813 = 0.65
5.409/3.813 = 1.42
For the Talon SS the mean is 1.013
low value = 0.695
0.695/1.013 = 0.69
high value = 1.326
1.326/1.013 = 1.31
So there is no indication at the 95% confidence interval the Talon SS group sizes have any outliers (flyers).
The same test can be applied to the Ruger groups, with the same results.
There is another test that can be used to see if the experimental data conforms to the theoretical model. The F-Test is used to test the ratio of variances to see if the two variances are equal. The F-Test is a bit odd in that the larger value always goes in the numerator. The F-Test is also sensitive to a distribution being not a “normal distribution”. I think that the extreme spread for a 10-shot group would be sufficiently like a normal distribution for the F-test to give decent though not exact results.
Looking at Taylor and Grubbs’ paper again the RSD for a 10-shot group is:
0.745/3.813 = 19.5%
the std dev for the Talon SS is 0.220 and RSD:
0.220/1.013 = 17.7%
the std dev for the Ruger is 0.209 and RSD:
0.209/0.892 = 23.4%
F-Talon = (19.5/17.7)^2 = 1.21
F Critical 95% CI with infinite degrees of freedom (DF) in numerator and 9 DF in denominator is 2.71. So the critical F value is not exceeded and the observed distribution has the variance expected.
F-Ruger = (23.4/19.5)^2 = 1.44
F Critical 95% CI with 9 DF in numerator and infinite DF in denominator is 1.88. So the critical F value is not exceeded and the observed distribution has the variance expected.
So the gist is that it would be possible to use the expected std dev of 19.4% relative instead of the measured standard deviations.
In order to use the normal distribution as the basis for a test, a two-sided T-test is used to determine if the two systems have different performance. There were twenty groups, but 2 degrees of freedom were used to determine the averages for each system (Ruger & Talon SS). So about 18 degrees of freedom. At 95% CI and 18 degrees of Freedom T-Critical is 2.101.
The twist here is that in the previous post it was shown that we could use the theoretical variances which have infinite degrees of freedom. For infinite degrees of freedom, T-critical is 1.96 at the 95% CI.
For Talon SS the std dev is:
1.013 * 0.194 = 0.196
0.892 * 0.194 = 0.173
Now the std dev of the mean difference is
SQRT( (0.196^2 + 0.173^2) / 10 ) = 0.0826
test T-value is:
0.121 / 0.0826 = 1.46
Since this is less than 1.96 the test does not indicate that the two means are different at the 95% CI.
Notice that using the theoretical RSD of 19.4% increases the sensitivity of the test in two ways. First the degrees of freedom go from about 18 (ignoring effects of combining std dev) to infinity.
Second the std dev of mean would have been
sqrt ( (0.220^2 + 0.209^2)/10) = 0.0959
so the experimental std dev is greater than the theoretical one.
Of course one should not first calculate using both methods and then decide which is “better.” You should decide how you are going to do the test before you collect the data.
I am a new comer to air guns. I have recently been given a Russian Baikal MP-61. I have a target set at 10 meters, use a peep site and RWS R10 match pellets. Using a bench rest I have been able to shoot 5 pellets in 1/4″ CTC. When I look at the targets sent by experts, I generally see a one hole entry for 10 shots. I have only been shooting now for about 4 months, and I am sure it requires a lot of practice, but I am hoping that you might be able to give some advise to improve my accuracy. As a senior (70 years young) I am enjoying this new sport with a friend and look forward to many happy times.
First, I would say you are doing very good already.
Second, that’s one wild looking gun!
I am new too, and have found that breathing control is very critical. Rest and shoulder the rifle and just look through the sight. Breath heavy a few times and just watch what that does as you look at the target, (very poor). Now, let out about half a breath and hold it. You will be much more on target and hold it there (better). Only hold breath about 5 seconds. If you are not ready to pull the trigger after 5 seconds, breath, hold, and aim again.
The other thing I have found is the position of your trigger finger on the trigger. Keep the trigger (between) the tip of the finger and the first joint. And, pull “straight” back as best you can. And, pull it easy and steady as possible.
Hope some of this helps. You are doing great already. 🙂
Chris…..thank you for the tips. I have tried to remember about the finger, but I find at times I am not using the tip. It takes a conscious effort, but I am sure in time it will become second nature. The breathing I think I have under control….I found that exhaling and hold worked best for me. I will continue to beware of these points. Again thank you for the response as it is greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the blog.
You may think you are old, but really you are on the high end of the average airgunner age. 45-70 is the average range for serious airgunners.
One-quarter-inch for a Baikal IZH 61 may be as good as your rifle can do! If the receiver is plastic instead of metal, some of them don’t shoot very tight.
Are you using the artillery hold? See this video:
Besides that, I would try different target pellets and even RWS Hobbys. Each pellet works best in some guns and not in others.
BB…..I believe the receiver is plastic. I have tried several pellets and have found the R10 to be the most consistent and accurate, but I have not tried the RWS hobby which I will do.
I have watched the video which I found most helpful. I am using a relaxed grip, but I do not use the sandbag to support my hand, I support my elbow on a table. I do find that when I become anxious I have a tendency to grip the handle and have to constantly remind myself to relax….but I think this may take time and experience.
What rifle do you recommend for its accuracy and ease of use. This particular rifle is light, easy trigger pull and cock.
Thank you for responding…..it is appreciated.
You should also know that many .177 pellets come in different head sizes. In the case of the R10 I believe they range from 4.49mm to 4.53mm. The sizes are marked on the back of the tin. On the PA website, you’ll find the size listed under specifications. These head sizes do make a lot of difference in the accuracy.
Start investigating the HW 30S.
The trigger is adjustable and MUCH better than the trigger on your rifle! And the cocking effort isn’t much harder.
Thanks BB…..I am checking into the pellets and the rifle.
One thing that no one has addressed as of yet, is your sight picture. No ones eyes can clearly focus on both SIGHTS and target simultaneously, when using metallic sights. Regardless of what you are shooting rifle or pistol, you have to focus on the front sight, it has to be crystal clear, consequently, the notch or aperture (rear sight) and the target will be a little fuzzy, there is no getting around that.
If you can consistently shoot 5 shot, 1/4′ CTC groups at 10 meters, That is excellent shooting, period! I crunched some numbers before I posted this reply and this is what I came up with: If your rifle and pellet combination were capable of shooting a perfect .177″ one hole group at 10 meters, which the vast majority or any are capable of, you are holding your sight picture to less than a .007 of an inch radius deviation in relation to the bulls eye. This was based on an approximate sight radius of 22″.
I have three of the IZH61 myself, it sounds like you have a really accurate one. Specifically, what sights do you have on yours, what is the size of your aperture? Are you a “lefty” or a “righty”? One other thing that I have noticed is that if the original rear sight is left in place, it can obstruct the ideal sight picture with the aperture sight.
One other thing, many people have a lot of B.S. and embellish (I am being kind here) on the ACTUAL distance these one hole groups were shot at, I, as you, are “old school”, you may have two on me, more or less BUT, I KNOW my limitations and am not embarrassed to tell someone that I don’t know something!
Keep up the good work, with your 10 meter groups, in my opinion, you need VERY little advice, you have your act together, be safe!
I am a righty using a rear air Venturi site. The 1/4 ” is the best I have done a few times but my average is generally 1/2″. I have a setup in the house that is 33′ 4″ and shoot targets mounted on a trap. I am sorry that I don’t know much about the equipment as I am just a beginner. A friend has given me the rifle and has coached me on the basics of shooting. I find it fun and exciting and look forward to making progress.
I had started shooting 4 months ago with a Daisy BB gun which states it’s the most accurate gun and about 5-6 weeks ago changed to the IZH61. I had been able to get better groupings with the BB gun, but I was shooting at 16′. I had then changed to the 10 meters with that as well and had been able to maintain the grouping.
Thank you for your response and encouragement….maybe some day I will be able to post a 3/16 group.
It sounds like you own a Daisy Avanti Champion 499. If so, you have the world’s most accurate BB gun. Yes, it is extremely accurate!
I wrote several blogs about that one, including this:
The groups you report are similar to what I have been able to do with the IZH 61 that has the plastic receiver. I think you are doing fine. Keep it up.
Do you have the post front sight or the one with the aperture? Even a .5″ CTC group is not too shabby at 10 meters for a person of your experience. That is still only two hair widths sighting error, you will get better, I’m sure. Perhaps you should take B.B.s advice and shoot 10 shot groups, then when you do get a one hole group, you have earned your bragging rights!
The reason I asked if you were right or left handed was because the IZH is a natural for a lefty, which I am. Due to it’s extremely low cocking effort, I hold mine by the pistol grip with my left, drop it from my shoulder and cock it with my right.
P.S. gunSIGHT, not gunSITE.
I am also doing the 10 shots now, trying to expand my capabilities. With 10 I generally shoot between 1/2 and 3/4″ however, even a 1″ will crop up. I can’t wait for the day that I will be able to brag. I will keep on t rying.
I am using a post on the front sight….I find that one the easiest for me. Sounds like a perfect gun for a lefty.
Thanks for the response and correction…..it is appreciated.
I have a quick followup question about the Talon SS with the 24 inch barrel installed. The barrel will be longer than the sound suppressing shroud on the stock rifle. Do you just slide the end cap over the 24 inch barrel and seat it and just have a step in diameter at the stock shroud and exposed 24 inch barrel?
Look at the picture closely. That is bloop tube silencer over the barrel. I have moved the end cap forward.
Thanks BB. I didn’t think of looking at the picture of your picture. Does the bloop tube silence the gun with the 24 inch barrel installed? Sorry for the questions. I’m inexperienced regarding AirForce guns and you’re a walking encyclopedia.
Yes, the tube does quiet the rifle’s report significantly. These are aftermarket items. I bought mine from Airhog. It wasn’t cheap. I think they run over $100.
With the 24 inch barrel and with the power dialed to 8, my SS is very quiet this way.
Since 1982 I have had 10, 1022’s and I still own 5. The one I bought in 2002 at Dick’s Sporting Goods for my USAF retirement present for $179 OTD has shot sub MOA from day one. Best 10 shot group is .38 CTC with ELy Match ammo. With CCI ST it will still for 5/8 of an inch all day at 50y.
My most expensive 1022 has about $1200 in it and will keep up now that it has a Freddersen barrel.
But without a noise reduction device, I prefer my airguns. I can shoot without driving anywhere.
Due to the lack of .22 ammo for the past year I have started a nice collection of air rifles. During that time I have primarily used .22 and .25 air rifles, a combination of PCP and springers. When I really want tight groups and incredible accuracy I grab my JSB pellets. Crosman pellets are usually a good secondary option.
This past holiday I purchased a new .22 LR Henry rifle, expecting accuracy and consistency. Once I loaded and shot close to 50 Federal .22 rounds through my rifle I was disgusted by the lack of accuracy. I thought I had purchased a terrible rifle. Going back to my air rifle experience over the past year I thought, will .22 LR rounds from other companies shoot different? Sure enough, I changed rounds from Federal to CCI and I was shooting with the accuracy I was looking for. Thankfully this past week my local Wal-Mart got a large shipment of .22 LR rounds. I stocked up on CCI rounds, leaving the Federal bulk packs on the shelf for the next buyer.
First rifle I bought with my own money was a Ruger 10/22 Sporter in the 1970’s.
Sold my Stevens single shot .22, a very early model Daisy 880 and added birthday money to fund the transaction and then enlisted the help of my sister since I was few years away from the legal age.
Best take away here is not to sell an accurate firearm that you treasure, they are not all created equal nor easily replaced.
Boy — is that the truth!
I own a 10-22 sporter like yours, walnut, nice checkering.accurate.mine has a brass bead insert front sight.
To me a barrel band is like a rifle that needs the barrel floated.can’t hit the broad side of a big barn.when I buy a powder burner I look for rifles that have no barrel band but a barrel that’s floated.I know some are accurate but its a rule thumb a floated or free barrel will knock the center out of the bull.
I like the weight and how my sporter fits and shoulders too.
I’ll address my comments to you since you authored this outstanding review of how the Talon SS stacks up. I would really like to aim my comments at new air gun shooters who are looking to get into PCP rifles such as myself.
I really appreciate all of the reviews you’ve done in the past and this current review about the Talon SS. To give a quick background, I’m 54 years old. I’ve shot guns my whole life including my time serving in the military. I kind of got out of shooting the past 10 years due to cost and availability of ammo, and the inconvenience of having to go someplace to safely shoot. I was at Cabelas here in Utah and saw these great lineups of air rifles. I had no idea airguns we’re so high tech from the 766 I had as a kid. Anyways, I bought my first Springer and Benjamin 392. However, I wanted more. I wanted a PCP that I could target shoot out to 50 meters. However, I didn’t want to pay the cost and inconvenience of a scuba tank. There’s not a lot of dive shops in Salt Lake City. I was kind of scared reading people’s horror stories of filling up a PCP with a hand pump. Plus the cost of a pump is nearly the cost of a rifle.
To sum it up, I saw your video and articles about filling up a PCP using a hand pump. I took the plunge and bought a 0.177 Talon SS along with an AirForce pump. I primarily shoot targets up to. 30 meters. I also bought a 24″ 0.22 barrel and a micro-meter tank. To those of you who are leary about using a hand pump, I’ll tell you it’s not bad. It took (7) 5-minute pump sessions with 15 minutes of cool down between sessions to fill the tank from empty. It takes (2) 5-minute sessions to fill from 1800 psi to 3000 psi. I pumped exactly how you demonstrated in you video. I didn’t break a sweat or run out of breath. It takes a little time but to me it is worth a little time to avoid relying on a scuba tank.
I picked up the rifle, pump, and scope on clearance from AirForce and the rings, barrel, and Micro-Meter tank from PA. I also purchased a shroud to silence the gun with the 24″ barrel installed. The Talon SS is an awesome PCP. To those of you scared of about using a hand pump, don’t be. Watch BB’s video and go for it.
I have to say that is, indeed, good accuracy for a factory 10/22 deluxe (which is the model in the first picture that has a 20″ barrel and a checkered stock). CCI standard is good ammo, but I bet if you fed it some slightly higher quality ammo, the groups would be more consistent, if not better overall. All my 10/22’s like CCI standard, but they all LOVE Eley Club and SK plus. I have a stock-barreled 10/22 in an axiom (lightweight) stock that will hover around 1/2″ at 50 yards with great consistency. I think it is worth saying that with even a slight crosswind, the 10/22 will dominate. I definitely KNOW that there are far more accurate .22lr rimfires for comparable money to the 10/22. A guy that I compete with at my rifle club shoots a taper-barreled savage mkII in a plastic stock that will shoot around 0.4-0.5″ at 50 yards, and he paid $180 for that rifle brand new. I have the heavy barreled thumbhole version of the MKII with a barrel tuner on it and I consistently get 0.2-0.3″ groups at 50 yards with Eley Edge, and I have about $550 in it minus scope, base, and rings. Isn’t that a lot cheaper than the Talon and all the support gear? I love airguns probably a lot more than is healthy, but for all-out accuracy for the money, I don’t think they can be compared to a good rim-fire. That is great that you got a very nice-shooting 10/22 deluxe, but I have to wonder what was wrong with your heavily modded one. My Kidd-barreled 10/22 shoots 0.4″-ish at 50 yards without a tuner on it, and I am running a stock trigger and a lighter stock so I can make hunter class weight. Others have definitely done a bit better for a lot less than $800, including the price of a stock rifle.