by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 7
Part 8
Today’s report is the continuation of a guest blog from reader HiveSeeker about his Crosman 2400KT.
If you’d like to write a guest post for this blog, please email me.
Over to you, HiveSeeker.
The 2400KT CO2 carbine is available exclusively from the Crosman Custom Shop.
This report covers:
- Velocity .22 — Wow!
- Crosman SSP pellets
- RWS Hobby pellets
- The Crosman clan
- Benjamin Discovery domed magnum pellets
- Benjamin Discovery hollow point pellets
- Beeman Kodiak pellets
- JSB Match Exact Jumbo Monster pellets
- Noise
- The most powerful non-PCP air pistols
- More muzzle energy!
- B.B.’s Crosman 2240 conversion to air
Velocity .22 — Wow!
Our shots-per-fill and .177 velocity discussion have already tipped my hand — the Crosman 2400KT is a powerhouse CO2 pistol in .22! That’s one of the most important things I have to report in this blog.
I was hoping for velocities over 500 fps in my HiveSeeker .22, and that was what I got with almost everything I tested. The 2400KT posted an average velocity of 573 fps with the middleweight 14.3-grain Benjamin domed magnum. Velocities ranged from 673 fps with the 9.5-grain alloy Crosman SSP, down to 451 fps with the aptly-named 25.39-grain JSB Exact Jumbo Monster. I had definitely attained what I wanted in the velocity department! Go ahead and take a look:
Notes:
1. B.B. reports that this pellet is identical to the boxed Crosman Premier, with the possible exception of single-die production.
2. B.B. reports that this pellet is identical to the boxed Crosman Premier. From the Benjamin Ultimate Hunting Pellet Assortment (UHPA).
3. From the 500-pellet tin (BHP22).
4. From UHPA.
As with the .177 pellets, I won’t be repeating specific velocities much in the ensuing discussion — you can get that from the above table. Below are some individual comments on only the most interesting of the various pellets tested.
Since I want to use the .22 HiveSeeker 2400KT for light small game hunting and pest control, I tested an even wider assortment of pellets to fully evaluate this pistol’s capabilities and potential.
Crosman SSP pellets
I think that 673 fps in any non-PCP .22 pistol is noteworthy — even with an alloy pellet. This was the only loose-fitting pellet of the bunch. It was by far the loudest of all the .22s tested, and louder in this caliber than its little brother was in .177.
RWS Hobby pellets
Another lightweight, the RWS Hobby, posted an average velocity just over the mark at 609 fps — not bad for lead in a .22 CO2 pistol!
The Crosman clan
These five pellets are very similar, and I’ll only comment on two of them. Except for domed or hollow point, they’re identical in nearly every way including weight (14.3 grains). They also performed similarly, except for the rebel of the family, the Benjamin Discovery hollowpoint from the Ultimate Hunting Pellet Assortment (hereafter UHPA). All five pellets (except that Benjamin hollow point UHPA) had average velocities that fell within 5 fps of each other. This is a real testament to Crosman quality control and manufacturing!
Meet the Crosmans! Can you tell the difference? I can’t without a scorecard! From left to right: Crosman Premier ultra magnum, Benjamin Discovery domed magnum (UHPA), Crosman Premier hollow point, Benjamin Discovery hollow point (500-pellet tin BHP22), and Benjamin Discovery hollow point (UHPA).
Benjamin Discovery domed magnum (UHPA) pellets
You’ll recall that this was the representative pellet I chose for the extended shots-per-fill test. When I averaged all the Crosman clan velocities (except the Benjamin hollow point UHPA), the average was 573 fps — exactly what the Benjamin domed magnum scored. So, yes, it does seem to be a very good representative for the group. Muzzle energy was 10.43 ft-lbs.
Benjamin Discovery hollow point (UHPA) pellets
This was the black sheep of the Crosman clan. I actually chronographed it twice because I thought the first test might have been a fluke. It wasn’t. The pellet posted an average velocity of 558 fps. This is only 15 fps lower than the rest of the Crosman clan — not a lot, really — but compared to its tight-knit siblings, this pellet stood apart. This 15 fps makes it stand apart from the pack even more in terms of muzzle energy, at about a half foot-pound less than all the other 14.3-grain Crosman pellets tested here.
Beeman Kodiak pellets
The Beeman Kodiak heavyweight dropped the 2400KT under 500 fps — but at 487 fps, not by much. Spread was tight at 11 fps, and I hope this will translate to consistent downrange accuracy for this slower pellet, especially since this one is traditionally a good hunter. This heavyweight also broke the 11 ft-lb mark in terms of muzzle energy.
JSB Match Exact Jumbo Monster pellets
This pellet is well-named — it’s huge! After fighting to load so many other tipping and flipping pellets in that notorious Crosman breech, it was sheer pleasure loading these big, easy beer cans! At 451, fps this was the slowest pellet, but it also had the only single-digit velocity spread in .177 or .22 — 9 fps. I hope that portends good, repeatable field accuracy for this potential hunter, because it generated the highest muzzle energy of all the other pellets at 11.47 ft-lbs.
I just had to show you this one! These jumbo beer cans were so easy to load. I’m hoping that the small 9 fps spread means that slow and steady does the job for downrange hunting accuracy.
In summarizing velocity performance for the unmodified .22 caliber 2400KT, all I can say is “Wow!” I was expecting velocities of at least 500 fps out of the box, but this fine little carbine has surpassed all my expectations.
Noise
As already mentioned for both calibers, some of the faster pellets were noticeably louder. However, the 18-inch .22 barrel really did seem to lessen the sound level compared to the 10.1-inch .177 barrel. (The very loud .22 Crosman SSP was a noisy exception.) Overall, I would rate the noise to be medium for the .22, and medium to medium-high for the .177. The longer-barreled .22 is definitely more neighborhood-friendly.
The most powerful non-PCP air pistols
In Part 1, I was initially looking at several powerful non-PCP pistols as candidates for my next purchase. When my chronograph started spitting out velocities even higher than I’d hoped for, it prompted me to go back and see how the HiveSeeker 2400KT stacks up against some of those earlier .22 contenders.
My previous finalist was the Browning 800 Express. This pistol posted 441 fps with the Crosman Premier when B.B.’s friend Mac tested the .22 version (Browning 800 Mag — Part 5). I was astonished to discover that the 2400KT was besting “the most powerful spring-piston handgun made” by 130 fps! To be fair, Mac found that this pellet was not a good one for the Browning, and the Express came within 70 fps of the 2400KT with both the RWS Hobby and RWS Superdome. A longer barrel — as we discussed in Part 5 — definitely provides an advantage for the 2400KT. But 70 fps is still a respectable lead!
Though no longer commercially available, the Crosman Outdoorsman 2250XE came closest to the 2400KT in off-the-shelf performance, following only about 25 fps behind with three different pellets (see Crosman Outdoorsman 2250XE: Part 2). I suspect this former Crosman Custom Shop offering is almost identical to my HiveSeeker in powerplant construction.
I also compared the 2400KT’s nearest living (commercially available) relative, the Crosman 2240. The 2400KT surpasses that popular gun by about 120 fps for every pellet tested (Crosman’s 2240 pistol: Part 2).
The table below summarizes some of these .22 air pistol comparisons. If you’re in the market for a powerful .22 pistol but aren’t ready to move up to a PCP, most of the commercially available options will be on this list.
Comparison table of velocities with different pellets for some of the most powerful .22 non-PCP pistols. All data except for Crosman 2400KT is from B.B.’s blog entries unless noted.
Notes:
1. Pyramyd AIR tech shop testing.
2. The Premier tested in the Crosman 2400KT was the Crosman Premier ultra magnum from the 500-pellet tin (LDP22).
3. The Crosman Premier and Beeman Kodiak would not fit in the breech of the Hatsan 25 Supercharger and could not be tested.
4. From the Benjamin Ultimate Hunting Pellet Assortment (UHPA).
5. From the 500-pellet tin (BHP22).
I’d already included barrel length in the table above for the barrel-length-and-velocity discussion, which we covered in Part 5. Some of these stock guns have barrels half the size of the 18-inch HiveSeeker’s; but even if the 2400KT is only faster than its colleagues because of its barrel length, it’s still among the fastest non-PCP .22 pistols you can buy.
Of course, velocity wasn’t the only factor I was interested in. A number of these other pistols, particularly the Browning 800 Express and Webley Alecto Ultra, require very high cocking or pumping effort. My arms, which were begging for a vacation from such calisthenics in Part 1, are happy with my new purchase. The Crosman 2400KT is one power-packed — and easy to use — .22 pistol!
More muzzle energy!
Now that we’ve examined velocity, there are two reasons I want to take a closer look at muzzle energy. First, I’d like to take the HiveSeeker small game hunting. Is it powerful enough for the job? Most modern sources recommend that a hunting airgun post a lower limit of 12 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle (Hunting with airguns). As you can see from our first velocity table above, the stock 2400KT falls shy of that 12-foot-pound recommendation.
Second, you’ll remember that my 2400KT is replacing my old Crosman 1377, which is now in airgun heaven. As technology has advanced, the standard for a hunting pistol has also kept pace. Pistols that used to be considered competent hunters — like the 1377 — no longer make the grade. So, how much more powerful is my new pistol?
Right about the time I started working on this blog, B.B. posted the vintage BSA Scorpion pistol (BSA Scorpion air pistol — Parts 1 and 2). He included the BSF S20 Match pistol and the Webley Hurricane, mentioning that “in their day, these 3 were considered to be the most powerful air pistols around.” How would they stack up today? Well, that blog mentioned the Beeman P1; and before I knew it, I was tracking down data on many of the historically powerful air pistols!
The table below compares muzzle energy for a number of the more powerful modern and historical non-PCP air pistols. As we saw above, muzzle energy can vary with the same gun. In making my comparison, I tried to stay as close as possible to the Crosman Premier Light in .177 (7.9 grains), and Crosman Premier in .22 (14.3 grains). These are both middleweight pellets in their respective calibers, and they should provide a good representative measure. Where those pellets weren’t used, I chose the closest-weight match.
Comparison table of muzzle energy for some of the most powerful historical and modern non-PCP air pistols. All data except for Crosman 2400KT is from B.B.’s blog entries unless noted.
Notes:
1. The Crosman Premier was also tested but found to be a poor performer in the Browning 800 Express.
2. Pyramyd AIR tech shop testing.
As you can see, the HiveSeeker .22 is more than twice as powerful as my old .177 Crosman 1377, with a muzzle energy of 10.36 foot-pounds compared to 4.65 foot-pounds. That’s definitely more punch! You can also see that .22 airguns tend to have higher muzzle energy than .177s, as in the cases of the dual-caliber Browning 800 Express (1.00 ft-lb difference) and Webley Alecto (1.11 ft-lb difference). The difference between calibers is much wider in the 2400KT, at 4.68 foot-pounds (though with the barrel length difference we’ve already discussed). This wide gap again indicates that the 2400KT in .177 is aimed at something other than maximum velocity; nevertheless, the .177 2400KT still places in the middle of the table, with the yesteryear power trio in B.B.’s BSA Scorpion blog retired to the bottom of the list. Times have changed!
B.B.’s Crosman 2240 conversion to air
You’ll recall that the direction this blog has taken arose in part from a comment that fellow reader G&G posted to B.B.’s Crosman 2240 conversion to air: “I will want to see just how close it comes to being the same as an existing gun you could just purchase.” We’ll finally attempt to answer that question now.
I included B.B.’s modified 2240 in the comparison tables above, even though their main purpose is to compare non-PCP pistols. B.B.’s modifications included the PowerMax HiPAC PCP conversion kit filled to 2250 psi, a new striker spring, steel breech and Crosman 14.5-inch barrel. This setup beat the HiveSeeker by 31 fps with the RWS Hobby, and by only 17 or 18 fps with the Crosman Premier and RWS Superdome. I would say that’s fairly close, but B.B. was only using a 14.5-inch barrel. Our previous discussion in Part 5 shows that he could widen that velocity gap even more with a longer barrel. So, in answer to our original question, the 2400KT approaches the velocities B.B. generated with his HiPAC conversion, but can’t match them — especially if more modding continues.
The Crosman 2400KT still represents an impressive value. For less than the cost of just some of B.B.’s upgrades — not even including the price of the base pistol itself — you get an adjustable-trigger carbine that nears the performance of a 2240 converted to air with a steel breech, longer barrel, and striker spring upgrade. This tells me that Crosman really knows what it’s doing with this pistol. But even if you like to mod, the 2400KT provides a very price-friendly starting point — with a lot of the modding already done for you!
Well, we’ve seen that this pistol can shoot fast. But does it shoot fair? B.B. likes Colonel Townsend Whelen’s quote, “Only accurate guns are interesting.” I’m coming to like that quote more and more, too. In Part 7, we’ll finally decide how interesting the Crosman 2400KT really is!
Comprehensive. Great reporting. Thanks much.
I think you’ve done more than Crosman to sell these guns–at least for me. Again, thanks for your careful study.
Rob and crew,
Thanks for being such a supportive crowd to write for! Major kudos go to B.B. for his editing and posting work on this, as well. If you’ve noticed all the pellet and research blog links sprinkled about, I really put him to work!
Rob, your are right that Crosman does not advertise these much. In fact, when I first started my “new gun” hunt I had overlooked the 2400KT entirely until an online acquaintance recommended it. I don’t think Crosman makes a ton of money on these, considering the custom build at this price point. But it’s a service I am certainly glad they offer — it’s a very nice gun for what you pay.
Please tell me where you are getting these .22 pellet velocities? I just received my Custom Shop .22 2400KT 18″ and I cannot even get a 14.5gr Superdome over 500fps. What’s your ambient temp when you do these fps tests? Do you ever mention that? I didn’t see it. Mine is roughly 66-67 degrees F.
Saab900,
Welcome to the blog!
Oh, and by the way, Saabs aren’t supposed to start ALL the time! 😉
That’s a line from the movie, “Crazy People” The character Saab said it.
B.B.
Thanks B.B. – I’m a little late to the party but I’d still like to know the conditions of the velocity testing. Ambient temperature? Time between shots? Both questions are valid for CO2 guns. I think I read every word of this blog and liked it. Well done – save for these details – which may be buried in the comments which I did not read. It’s not Summer yet here so I get my readings indoors from a ProChrono Digital with infrared light bars. Thus my 67F ambient. My immediate worry is whether I have a Custom Shop dud or will this 2400KT come to life at 80+F or not. Given my ambient the MVs I’m getting are pitiful.
Btw, I can 2nd the findings on the most accurate .22 pellets for the Crosman barrel. Years ago a friend built a custom Ransom rest for his stock 2240 and I supplied a dozen types and brands of good pellets. We took our time, allowing the gun to warm back to the roughly 80F ambient. Tightest groups at 20yds were the RWS Superdome, the Meisterkugeln and the JSB Exact Diabolo. I did not have the AA Falcon but now have them on order,
Saab9000,
This was a guest blog. You need to talk to HiveSeeker, who did the testing. He should be getting comments to these old reports, but I will try to contact him for you.
B.B.
Hello Saab9000,
Please let me echo B.B.’s welcome! Most of my velocity testing was done at much higher temperatures, mostly 84 degrees F but some as high as 88 degrees (yes, sweat dripping off me as I tested–wish I could control the weather!). Probably the most mention of ambient temperate (and the wait between shots I used for all my testing) is in the barrel test, in Part 10 at:
/blog/2017/12/crosman-2400kt-co2-air-rifle-part-10/
“Below are the velocity curves from these stock Crosman barrels. All testing was completed at 84 degrees F using the Chimera, except for the 18 inch barrel for which I already had data at 88 degrees F from another 2400KT. (Be aware that CO2 velocities will be slightly lower at cooler temperatures. Detailed testing by Stephen Archer found that for .22 guns velocity can vary 1.8 to 2.0 fps for each degree F.) I waited 90 seconds between shots to allow the CO2 cartridge and gun to warm back up, which yielded slightly higher velocities and also better simulated hunting conditions, where shooting opportunities usually do not occur in rapid succession.”
The mentioned velocity testing with temperature change was done by Stephen Archer with a QB78, and apparently the physics of the Crosman 2400KT is not comparable. When I did some chrony testing at 78 degrees with the 18 inch barrel I could not break 500 fps–a much more dramatic drop than I was expecting. This might be another blog project when I get the time and energy!
So, your results are not unexpected from my limited low temperature experiences. One thing you might try is warming the CO2 cartridges in your pants pocket a half hour or so before shooting.
Thank you HiveSeeker for the links and info to the shooting temperatures. I think my 2400KT will be just fine – come Summer 🙂
I don’t know if this is the best place for this but here goes:
I wanted to fill in a blank concerning the universe of pellets and their inherent ballistic coefficient (BC). This pertains to the rules of humane hunting with airguns.
Usually seen is the minimum energy at the muzzle (i.e. 12ft-lbs). This does not however mean anything downrange per the ft-lbs actually delivered to the target.
What I will use as examples are the charted muzzle velocity and muzzle energy figures found in HiveSeeker’s “Crosman’s 2400KT carbine: Part 6”, 88ºF.
I will use the 14.5gr Superdome (BC=0.012) and the 15.89gr JSB Exact Diabolo (BC=0.031) plus info I found online regarding the BC of each pellet and a program allowing entry of weight, projectile BC, muzzle velocity, temperature, altitude, wind conditions, zeroing distance, results charting and graphing parameters and so on.
You can create two (or more) profiles and overlay the trajectory graphs for a visual look-see and also generate individual charts showing each pellet’s behavior from its launch out to whatever distance you want the chart to go and at what yardage intervals. Besides the particular pellet info I modified certain defaults to: 0 wind speed, 50yds chart range, 5yd chart steps, 88ºF, 350ft altitude, 50% RH, etc.
Note that the higher the BC the better.
Results:
The lighter 0.012BC H&N Superdome leaves the 2400KT @ 572fps with ~11ft-lbs.
The heavier 0.031BC JSB Exact Diabolo leaves the 2400KT @ 552fps with ~11ft-lbs
However, just 25yds downrange here’s what’s happened:
The lighter 0.012BC H&N Superdome is traveling @ 445fps and carrying just 6ft-lbs.
The heavier 0.031BC JSB Exact Diabolo is traveling @ 501fps and carrying 9ft-lbs.
Moreover, the JSB overtook the H&N at roughly the 15 – 20 yard mark. IOW: Passed it, in-flight.
The morale of this example is to don’t just look at muzzle velocity and initial energy. Look to the pellet’s BC b/c that defines how well it slices through air; how much velocity it retains over time and distance (flight flatness) and all that equates into the ft-lbs delivered downrange, at and into the target.
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/
Saab,
Saved the top link. Check out “Chairgun” on the Hawke scope website. You will love it.
Chris
Hey Chris,
Did you see on Hawke’s web site that they are no longer supporting Chairgun? Glad we got ours before they stop making it available.
https://www.hawkeoptics.com/chairgun-and-x-act-end-of-life.html
Geo
Geo,
I did not know. What a bummer! That was a real good tool for newbies. I will look into what they recommended and also that other link that Saab provided the other day.
Thanks for the heads up,….. I have not been on the site in awhile.
Chris
Chris
It appears that the Chairgun program will be available on Hawke’s web site for a period of time as a legacy program. It just won’t be updated or supported anymore. So people will still be able to download it. One thing though, Chairgun requires that JAVA be installed on your system in order for the program to run.
Geo
Saab,
Interesting analyses, and understood that a variety of factors will affect pellet energy over range. Muzzle energy is just that — measured at the muzzle. It’s a starting point, and more work is needed to determine how much of that energy remains upon arrival at the target. Chairgun is a handy app that will do some of that work for you if your pellet is in the database, or you can add a pellet and estimate BC using two chronographs or via separate muzzle and target readings.
Thanks for adding to the discussion.
I’ve gotta feeling the “Shooters Calculator” I used is related to Chairgun – but which I have not used. It filled my needs. The Hardairmagazine listing of BCs for “common” 177, 22 and 25cal pellets may not be extensive but they describe how they came to their results + caveats and all that seemed legit. They use some Doppler gizmo for muzzle and 30yd velocities, for example. No Chrony allowed! 😉 I found the BC factor very revealing and surprising. I’ve only been part-time a-gunning for a few years or so and BC was new to me. I don’t hunt but it’s nice to know which pellets at least fly flatter than others. Accuracy is of course #1 and when you get accuracy + high BC – that’s a wrap.
The tools at our disposal in this day and age are pretty amazing. Due to the limitations of my back yard I don’t shoot much past 20 yards, and most of what I worked on was muzzle velocity (meaning at the muzzle, LOL) and 10 yard accuracy. All of this gets even more interesting as you push it out to range.
Very nice job, Hive Seeker. Looking forward to accuracy results. This might be something I will pursue.
Fred DPRoNJ
Hiveseeker,
Great report and very well written. Lot’s of data, charts, test results, pellet types and nice photos.
What more could one ask for? Great blog for the weekend. Nice job ! 🙂
Short on time now, but will read,..and reread,…and of course have questions later.
Again, nice job.
Chris
Of course you know what this means don’t you,…..B.B. gets the weekend off,…..you on the other hand,…..don’t. 😉
B.B. may have the weekend off, but he earned it! (And may need it just to recuperate.) I dropped a ton of research blog links in there, not to mention a passel of pellets!
Did you get the velocities for the 18″ KT 177?
Tom,
I did, and left a response at that blog, thank you!! Definitely faster than the 10 inch barrel.
I own three of these things…I know that part 7 will reveal that you kt is very “interesting”.
Tom and Edith get an all paid expense two weeks in Hawaii ! This was one of the greatest Blogs ever !
Thank you very much !
Pete
Orcutt, California
Pete,
I would just settle for a week of uninterrupted sleep 🙂
Edith
Edith,
I know exactly what you are saying. My girl friend of 25 years and I live next door to each other. I can learn to play the Ukulele at 3 in the morning or snore at any time. The all paid vacation has option “A”, you go to Hawaii first or option “B” ,Tom goes first.
There, how is that ?
Pete
Orcutt, California
Oh yeah…I agree with Pete; excellent job, Hiveseeker!!! BTW, I’m building one of these in .25 cal right now. I’m interested to see how it lobs 30 grain pellets downrange. Both of my .22 versions do great with JSB monsters, so it should be an interesting comparisson.
Diaboloslinger,
Thank you, Sir, and Pete as well.
In all my research, including mods, I did not come across any mention of a .25! Where did you get the barrel?
BNM Custom advertises about as much as the Crosman custom shop, but they make multishot breeches that use marauder magazines for the 22xx platform. The kits fit the 2400kt platform as well, and come with a barrel shroud that is integral with the breech. I have a .25 cal kit on the way that I ordered with a 20″ barrel, which I believe is an M-rod barrel. Tickle the keys on your Google machine and you’ll track down their website. I already use two of these kits in .22 and .177, and they’re awesome!!!
bnmcustom.com
Diaboloslinger,
Thanks for the information! Their photo gallery has some awesome-looking mods in there!
It took me a whole to figure out that to find their products for sale, you have to scroll to the bottom of the page…
As for 25cal pellet BCs there are eight here already tested.
https://hardairmagazine.com/ballistic-coefficients/
These BCs were determined at MUCH higher velocities so choose well as you will need the slipperiest pellet possible 🙂
Been reading 6 parts now, hoping to see some groups. Darn…..cliffhanger again! Show us how your babies shoot!
Don’t overlook the H&N FTT pellets. Because they’re available in several head sizes, you’re more likely to find one that is magic for your barrel. Good luck!
Feinwerk,
Thanks for the recommendation — which, as it turns out, is a good one. Part 7 will reveal all!
Hiveseeker,
If your .22 cal proves to be accurate I’m in oh yeah. I was thinking of ordering one of the new style P1322 classics but when you add up the cost of the stock and steel breach it’s right at the same price you paid for your gun. Already own the Hatsan 25 Supercharger and while accurate the thing is beast. It is heavy, hard to cock and has no option for a stock. Be glad you didn’t order one, the weight and cock effort offset the accuracy and it just isn’t something it would recommend for toting around the woods, this in a gun to shoot off the bench. So bring on part 7 so wee can see how it shoots
David
Pa.oldman,
If you’d said “.177” I would have told you not to hesitate. For the .22, you’ll have to judge for yourself but I don’t think you’ll be disappointed (please stay tuned to this channel). As to power, you’ll get a 100+ fps advantage over the P1322 or 1322 with the 18 inch barrel, and should still get at least 50 fps more if you go shorter. And don’t forget the adjustable trigger!
Im pretty sure I’ve seen a stock for the hatsan pistols, it might have been an off brand budK or older model though… Im surprised hiveseeker didn’t mention the Benjamin trail pistol, didn’t have a chrony when i owned one but rabbits kicked over on the spot out to 25-30 yrds, it was very accurate, if not powerful, only takes 4 or 6 lbs for rabbit if I remember, and the estimates were in the 7-9lb depending on pellet. It LOVED those gimmicky lethals, a lot of guns like them, actually… but with a 4x scope and pellets lazer guided rabbits were too easy. I call the trail q serious bug backpack contender. Squirrel body shots past 20yards won’t happen, but we can often get closer then that and heads the only target for small pellets anyway.. happy hunting!
RDNA
Maybe there is a stock for the Hatsan some where but the thing is still a beast to cock @ almost 60 lbs. :’-(
David
RifledDNA,
I was looking primarily at .22 pistols in general, and then mostly traditionally powerful pistols on that muzzle energy table–though if I’d included more the Benjamin Trail NP would have deserved a place there.
Oh yeah, that was a criteria wasn’t it? Derrr.
At last Part 6! Hope Part 7 won’t be too far away. Phenomenal performance from that package. Still many things to learn and appreciate from a CO2 powerplant.
Very nice report,I have been up grading the 2300 and 2240 for
several years now.I wonder what fps I could achieve with
the full up grade on 2400KT.I have gotten 640 fps with the premier pellet.
On a Custom Shop 2300 with a 14″ bbl.I added the heavy hammer spring
which alone can add 35/40% to velocity,A new heavy valve and a larger
air outlet between the bbl.and lower tube.
Can you tell me if the Webley Alectro Ultra has been discontinued?
I have backed away from it because of the extra pumping to get the
max out of it but I may just add it to my collection anyway.
You are right, We are in the Golden Age of Air Gunning right now
The new models and products being offered today are amazing and
will add more converts to the hobby.
I read your question about the Webley Alectro and thought no, they are at PA now. I went on over to PA to make sure and I don’t see them……Maybe B.B. or Edith could let us know.
Bradly,
Webley doesn’t make the Alecto anymore. I don’t have any info about the reason for dropping it.
Edith
Webley Alecto is going out of line? Wow, that’s a surprise to me.
Fred_BR,
Let me rephrase my statement. I was told that the Alecto is going away. I just looked at the U.S. importer’s website and their 2015 catalog, and the Alecto is not shown. I then looked at the UK Webley site, and it still shows the Alecto in the current lineup of Webley airguns. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s still in production. Maybe they just haven’t updated their website! So, let’s just say that the Alecto is no longer available to U.S. retailers.
Edith
I think the absence of the Alecto from the Pyramyd site is fairly recent. I could have sworn it was still there when I checked a couple links as I was wrapping up this blog.
If it has gone the way of the dodo (extinct), my guess would be cost as the reason. In that price range, I would jump straight to a PCP.
Hiveseeker
I was hoping to have both my disco tubes back for my 2 highly modified 2240s by this report but I have only gotten the 16.5 inch tube back with the steel hipac end on it and as yet have not had a chance to get any testing done with it due to other issues with the shorter 14.5 inch tube .
The 16.5 inch tube is 105cc worth of volume that will hold 2000 psi safely and the 14.5 inch tube is 87cc at the same pressure. The reason for no testing with my 16.5 inch tube as of yet since I got it Tuesday of last week is when the 14.5 inch tube was in the lathe having it aluminum tube lightly polished it was wobbling just a bit and some pressure was applied to it to try and straighten the wobble and the hipac end broke right at the joint where the o ring sits between the threads and the flange on the hipac tube end.
There are two new aluminum ends to replace the steel hipac ends being made as we speak so I am reluctant to pressurize the new 16.5 inch tube until I have the much stronger aluminum end on it so I can feel safe to use it and put it thru its paces.
Both guns are 177 with a 20 inch barrel for the 14.5 inch tube and a 24 inch barrel for the 16.5 inch tube and the tube lengths bring them to 1/2 inch short of the barrel lengths of each gun.
I cannot give any accurate numbers as of yet since I have not actually tested with the new tubes but I can say that when I was able to get the Hipac plus two extensions to hold 2200 psi for enough to shoot some shot strings 6 months ago I was getting in the low 800fps with the CP 10.5 pellets out of the 20 inch barreled gun.
I am hoping and looking to tune them to give me 20 shots at some where in the neighborhood of 850 fps per 2000 to 2200 psi fill with either CP 10.5s or JSB 10.34s, but since I do not have the complete tubes in my hand and am leery of pressurizing the 16.5 inch tube I do have since I was informed that the wall thickness where the one hipac end broke was only .025″ thick I do not want the tube I have to blow up causing damage to the gun or myself.
I will report my final tuning results to you when I have both gins tuned and fully tested and hope that I can achieve my goal of 850fps for 20 shots per fill.
BD
Buldawg76,
You and Gunfun1 may make a modder out of me yet!! I’m looking forward to your report!
I’m not sure if I would go all the way to a conversion to air, but barring that what mods would you recommend a newbie start with? A striker spring upgrade would seem to be one of the common entry level mods.
HiveSeeker
The best to mods that will give you the most bang for your buck is and adjustable hammer spring end cap and opening up the transfer port on the 22 to 3/16″ in the valve and barrel then use ice maker plastic tubing as a transfer port seal as the ice maker tubing is 1/4 OD and 3/16″ ID the only issue with that mod is you need to spot face the valve and barrel seats to 1.4 ” by .050″ deep so that it holds the tubing in place .
That cannot be done for the 177 as 3/16″ is just slightly under the 177 pellets size and it allows the nose of the pellet to try to fall into the port instead of smoothly going past it but can be done you just have to load the pellet and with the barrel point downward shake the gun to get the pellet to slide past the port before closing the bolt.
So for the best bang for the buck without special machining work being done would be to just get an adjustable hammer spring end cap as the stock spring is strong enough and with mine I find a nut that will fit inside the hammer to add about 1/4 inch of preload to the spring from the stock setting as well as add a little more weight to the hammer giving it slightly more inertia. There is an end cap that crosman makes that will replace the factory one but right know I cannot remember which gun it is actually for so that you can order it from crosman and you will need the cap and spring guide, maybe GF1 will read this and chime in as I know he knows the gun you need to get the end cap and spring guide from.
Or to start with just find a nut about 1/4 in thickness that will fit inside the hammer to ad some more tension on the spring and some more weight to the hammer, One that will fit good is a nylock style nut that has the nylon in it to keep it from loosening on a screw in either 6×32 threads or 8x 32 threads as I cannot remember which it is I used but that would be the cheapest quickest and simplest way to add some more fps to both gun without any mods that cannot be undone easily.
BD
I noticed i’ve got an adjustable hammer sprin tensioner on one of my paintball guns yesterday while considering mods for mine and I’ll be taking measurements today but it looks like that $5 paintball gun’s gonna be a good investment.
Reb
If you can get it to fit the 2400 you can turn the power up some but you will lose shot count in the process so good luck, you can always just put a nut or some small washers inside the hammer to add tension to the spring.
BD
I picked up some of my drillbits yesterday and a driver so I can hand drill a pilot hole to mount it but I have no tap. It is just plastic but I’d still rather not take a chance on screwing it up,it’s cross-pinned into the paintball gun so I guess I have 360 degrees of error compensation to get the grip frame screw to line up just so. I exhausted the gas today so I can start the disassembly and evaluation.My goal is actually to be able to adjust shotcount and report more-so than velocity.
Reb
if it is plastic and it fits the ID of the 2400 tube then if you just drill the two holes 180 degrees opposite each other that holds the end cap in the 8 x 32 pitch screws should cut their own thread into the plastic end cap and it would be enough to allow for adjustment of the hammer spring especially if you are after more shot count and less report noise .
it would also allow you to turn it up when you needed or wanted extra power as well.
BD
Hiveseeker
Lot of info there. Thanks.
And go to the Crosman website and go to the diagrams. Look up the 2300S. That’s the adjustable end cap you need. It comes as a assembly. Get that part number for the assembly. And I don’t think the spring is considered part of the assembly. I would definitely get the spring also because it will be the correct legnth.
And been busy packing and getting things in order for moving. Kind of hectic right now. So may not get to pop into the blog as much for the next week or so.
And I do believe you will be happy with that 2300S adjustable end cap.
GF,
Take care. I don’t envy the move. Get set up in your new place and hurry back!
If I even know a little about you,…it is,…you won’t be able to stay away ! 😉
Chris
Hiveseeker
Thanks, and you know your right.
I will be back. And I hope I can pop in and keep up with things on the blog during the move. Should be able to with my phone.
I’m interested in your accuracy report so I will be watching for it.
GF,
Yeah, will do. Waiting for a good day, 70 or so. Will take the day off. Should be a 200+ shot day with 7 pellets. First, groupings with 10’s at 30yds. Second, zero out with best pellet. Third, set up targets at 20,30,40 and yes,…50yds. to get hold over/under data.
It will be a “work” day, but,…a whole lot more fun than a WORK day ! 😉
Chris
Chris, USA
I see I wrote Hiveseeker when I was replying to you above about the move and being back. Sorry about that.
And like you say about the air gun data collecting. It is work but its the work I could do every day and never get tired of it.
And don’t know about where your at. But the weather is starting to stay pretty nice here now. So I guess its getting pretty close to time for you to start on your outside range.
Gunfun1,
No problem,…I’ve had some “practice” figuring out your post with that awesome spellcheck/auto correct/ or what ever it is you got on that smart phone…. 😉
Chronied the TX for the first time today. Check out the post near the bottom and chime in between packing and moving boxes, if you got the time.
Chris
Chris, USA
Glad you can decifer my phone.
And going to check out your chrony results now.
Gunfun1,
I replied here as I did not see any comment below on the chrony results.
As you can see, if you read, I was doubting the results. Did get some help though.
I tried again today with a different lighting set up and got much better results, (spread).
I won’t burden you with the results, ( I know you are busy ), but rather,.. just wanted to let you know that I am getting better (chrony) results.
I will say that I am very interested in some fps increase and am thinking of the HO kit from Vortex. (No need to reply on that now), as it won’t happen soon, but just wanted to let you know what I was thinking.
It would seem that I have a .22 with a .177 power plant from what B.B. said.
Anyways,…just an update.
Chris
Buldawg76 and Gunfun1,
Thanks for the suggestions. While I’m pretty handy in some other DIY arenas, I’ve been very hesitant to “mess” with guns of any kind. However, if I get another 2400KT it may be a tinkerer for me!
Hiveseeker
Thend cap replacement is pretty straight forward.
Remove one screw in the back of the breech that is normally used to hold the rear sight on.
Then take the rear screw of the trigger grip assembly out.
At that point the the old end cap and spring will slide out.
Then just reverse the above when you assemble. It should be a drop in replacement. I can have it done in under 5 minutes easily.
Its a quick and simple mod that will allow you to be able to adjust your power level for different types of shooting. High for hunting and low for indoor use and anywhere inbetween.
I think you would be surprised how versatile it makes your gun. And that’s a mod that I believe Crosman should make mandatory on theses type of guns.
And I have to wait again for the next part for your accuracy results. Well I’ll be keeping an eye out for it.
Thanks, Gunfun1. I know a lot of the parts for the Crosman 2XXX guns are interchangeable and will keep these in mind if I decide to order a tinkerer gun.
Hiveseeker
Oh and I forgot thank you for a very well written and detailed report on your two 2400s as you really did go all out in comparing them to as many similar guns as any one could have hoped for so very very excellent report.
BD
Buldawg76,
You’re welcome! I, in turn, have learned a lot from your comments over the many blogs.
HiveSeeker
When I get my two 2240 carbines /rifles up and tuned I will give you some number on their performance and accuracy.
BD
Hiveseeker,
Let me add on my congratulations for an excellent report.
I’m curious to know how using the available 10.1″ Lothar Walther Match barrel would affect accuracy and velocity. Any ideas?
Jim
Jim,
We’ve already had some discussion on this specifically in terms of velocity (check the previous Part 1-5 links above, especially Part 5). With the 10.1 inch Lothar Walther barrel, the 2400KT gets almost exactly the same velocity with middleweight lead pellets as the .22 with the 18 inch Crosman barrel. The previous blogs include a couple of my guesses as to why.
Regarding accuracy, which is a whole other ballgame, the .177 Lothar Walther match barrel is more accurate. We’ll be talking about that in Part 7!
I really have enjoyed your report and can relate to all the testing you have done but would the comparison be better made to rifle/carbine. I know it is on what used to be a pistol but with an 18″ bbl its not a pistol anymore. How does it compare to factory carbines in the same price range.
Sam, I wondered the same thing. I know Crosman used to list the 2250 at 550 fps with a 14.63″ barrel. They listed the 2260 at 600 fps with a 24″ barrel. If those #’s are true, then a 16.5 to 19″ barrel would shoot faster than that? B.B. tested a 2250 and got about 550 fps out of her. /blog/2011/06/crosman-outdsoorsman-2250xe-part-3/
Only complain I have with my 2260 (and others that had reviews on PA’s site) as well as the 2250 was the drop off in # of shots. Only about 25 or so good shots. I always wish it held two C02 carts.
That answers part of the question I was trying to answer when I discovered a part6 on this the 2400.
Excellently performed too I’ll add!
I’ll also add that although I have been unable to test mine at hunting ranges I’ve been impressed so far.whit some cobbled together open sights!
It can be a mathematical challenge to fit 10 .22 pellets in under 1″ unless you get the right pellet and they all follow the leader through the same hole,which is what min’s been doing with the Monsters at my new indoor 8 yd range,flying through the chrony at just under 400fps.14.3 cphp’s went through at just under500fps and here’s one to try; Berman round pellets.,They gave the Monsters a run for their money in initial testing but theJSBs seem to bee closer to THE pellets for mine.I’ll be getting some of the 18 gr ones just to see but I’m thinking this one’s just gonna like longer pelleots. phone’s goin nuts on me so time to sign off.
Thanks for another great installment Hiveseeket!
Reb
The question I had was;is thew an adapter tba would screw into the gas tube and allow me to directly use an Airsource cartridge instead of having to mount it elsewhere?
When I went to Wally’s for co2 for my paintball gun they were outta the larger canisters leaving only 90 gram carts and an adapter from paintball to AS, my assistant had it installed before I even knew it wasoutta the package and the stem on the endcap prohibits screwing it into my other one to check that way but it looks like I’ve got enough barrel to clear one with over an inch left. So I have a 90 gram AS and the adapter but would prefer not to have it mounted to the bottom of the grip paintball style (for now anyways). Just still not up to drilling and rapping on a new gun. ;). .
Sam (and crew below) make a good point. Especially with the shoulder stock, the 2400KT shoots like a rifle rather than a handheld pistol. I continued comparing it to other pistols, because the small chassis frame is still a pistol frame, and you can always remove the shoulder stock and install pistol grips. When I researched .22 CO2 rifles for background comparison, I only came up with two: the 2260 you reference, and the Hammerli 850 AirMagnum (which takes a 90-gram CO2 tank and is in a class all its own). The 2400KT holds its own against the 2260; in fact, I believe the 2260 is essentially many of the same parts dropped into a rifle stock (/blog/2005/11/crosman-2260-real-value-in-a-gas-rifle/).
On a related topic, I think that the 14 inch barrel is probably the longest that can probably be comfortably shot with pistol grips, and you would probably not want the added weight of the muzzle brake option.
bb and others,
Off topic here but will the Daisy Powerline 953 target pro rifle be able to pass the “deal wood test” ie. will it go through a one inch block of pin or fir when shot at a distance of approximetly 5 feet with its most hard hitting pellet.
UtkarshGupta
UtkarshGupta
It is very doubtful it will go completely thru pine or fir of 1 inch thick as it is only a 500 to 550fps powered gun and is designed as a 10 meter target gun not a hunting gun. I have a 853 which is basically the same gun and it may put a pellet 1/4 ” deep into the wood and maybe with a pointed pellet 1/2″ deep but that is still doubtful.
BD
BD,
The other day, you mentioned a B40, (TX clone), and some tunes you did. P.A. does not show it. Is it an older gun? What, if any, additional fps did you get?
Also,…in your opinion,… It would seem that with a tune, that you need to “break it in”,…so,…how many shots do you give a “tune”, before you move onto a second or third try at something different?
Thanks, Chris
Chris,USA
Yes it is no longer made and I am not sure as to the exact year but I believe it to be around 2007 or 08 that the Chinese stop production of the gun which is almost a perfect copy of the TX 200 and sold for 325. The main differences I have come across is it has a conical shaped end to the barrel where the pellet is loaded and a corresponding cone shaped rubber seal versus the TX 200 flat barrel end and a o ring seal for the breech. I also has a very similar trigger make up with just some slight difference in contours of some of the sear and trigger parts, the piston is not polished to a smooth finish like the TX but does have the two nylon ring that the TX has on the piston.
As far as a tune when I bought the gun it had a vortek 12 fpe kit in it and the best I could get out of it was around 650 fps with 10.3 gr pellets and the low 700 with 7.9 gr pellets. I had also just traded a 22lr on armslist for a RWS 48 in 177 and was buying a vortek kit for it and while talking to Tom at vortek and discussing the velocities I was getting with my b40 and that it had a 12fpe kit in it he said if I would send him the 12 fpe kit back he would exchange it for the HO kit. So sent the 12 fpe kit back as well as buying the 48 kit and putting the HO kit in the B40 as it is the same kit the TX uses. I had also bought some problem solver seals from Maccari for the TX/b40 that were some what over size as when I measured the compression chamber on the 40 it was approx. .080″ out of round and measured at the biggest ID at .9985″. I honed the compression chamber till it had a nice crosshatch finish in it before installing the black seal; The seals measured at 1.004″ and 1.013″ in OD so I tried the black 1.004″ seal first with lithium grease as the lube on the piston seal and piston rings and the supplied vortek grease on the spring and guides and now after 20 shots to burn some of the lube off I chronyed it and it was shooting 7.9 at 884 fps and the 10.3 at 745 fps. Then I shot it another 200 shot or until the smoking and lube burning smell was mostly gone and chronyed it again and the 7.9 had dropped to 850 fps and the 10.3 had dropped to 707 fps which I felt was to much of a loss since it should gain fps as the seal seated so I felt the black seal was may be not sealing as completely as it should so I installed the red seal that was 1.013″ and barely lubed it since the chamber was already lubed and shot it 200 time until the oil burning smell was gone as it never did smoke with this seal but I could feel a definite slight drag in the cylinder when closing chamber after cocking so I knew the seal was contacting the chamber walls a good bit tighter and would break in with more shots than the black seal. After the 200 shots I chronyed for a base line to use to see if it improved after another 500 plus shot thru it and got 833 with the 7.9s and 706 with the 10.3s so it is a bit lower than with the black seal when it was heavily coated with grease as I had over done it when first assy the gun with the new spring kit and seal which account for the higher velocities than the red seal is showing know but I am hoping that the red seal is not fully seated yet and will improve with more shots on the gun.
But to say a spring gun needs X number of shot to be broke in is not possible as every gun is unique to its self and some may be broke in in 100 shots while others may take 1000 to 1500 shots to fully seat and stabilize in their velocities and group stabilizing so I an giving then 40 another 500 plus shots to retest and see if it has improved at all or stayed the same as my target goal is to be able to shoot JSB 10.34s at an average of 800 fps.
If it does get close to those number then I have two choices of rehone the cylinder to try and get more of the out of roundness out of it or buy a new TX chamber and start over.
I bought the B40 for 260 bucks with a vortek kit in it with all the original parts so I can spend a little more on it to hopefully get what I want from it before it is time to just be satisfied with what it is and save for a TX.
BD
BD,
Thank you for all that info. I will “boil it down” to see ( this = that ) and make notes. Nothing like (data) from someone who has actually done it.
I do suppose that 200 shots would be ok for a tune break in. You got to draw the line somewhere before moving on or staying with what you got. No doubt, a chrony would be invaluable!
Got to work today, so back later.
Chris
Chris,USA
I have tried four different seal in this gun so far, two with the 12fpe kit in it and I was just not going to get the result I wanted out of a 12 fpe kit and that is why I went to the HO kit which the only difference is a spring of .113″ wire diameter and 28 coils for the 12 fpe kit to a spring of .118″ wire diameter and 31 coils for the HO kit
But the best thing about the two kits is there is no real noticeable difference in recoil or should I say bump when shot since that is all it really is is just a slight bump and if held tightly when shot it does not try to jump or move in your hands at all. That was one of my main concerns when swapping to the HO kit but it is difficult to perceive any real difference other than velocity increase.
The 200 shot mark I stated was just a number of shots on the new red seal to chrony for a base line numbers to gage if after 500 plus more shots it has seated any better and actually sped up in velocity rather than just changing from the black seal to the red seal and shooting 1000 shots and see what it chronyed at. So at least I have a starting set of numbers to see if it gets any better with more shots versus just shooting blind for 1000 shot and then chronying it and not have any previous data to compare to see if in fact it did improve or stayed the same. as the black seal actually gave the better numbers when it had excess lube on the seal. So it may get the black seal put back in and just be kept oiled every 200 or so shots to give the numbers I want or get a new chamber to start fresh with.
It is still only in the middle of the testing stage at this point so there is still many shoots to go before any changes are made.
BD
Buldawg76,
As I am sure that you are well aware,.080 is a lot of “out of round”, way too much for a compression cylinder. Did you make any attempt to straighten it? I have an idea that I believe would work, if you are interested, I would be happy to explain it to you.
Bugbuster
Bugbuster
Sorry for the late reply as I was out of town over the weekend. I would be interested in your suggestion but the problem is the out of round is only on the insider in the form of wear because the outside of the chamber is less that .001″ out of round so there is nothing to straighten the only fix is to hone the dickens out of the inside to bring it into roundness and hope I can get a seal big enough to seal in it or buy a new TX chamber for the gun.
I am not ready to do that yet and is why I installed a seal the is .020″ larger than the largest ID of the chamber and am letting it seat into the chamber.
I would be interested to hear you fix for a chamber that is out of round inside and outside.
BD
Buldawg76,
My idea would only work with thin wall tubing with a uniform wall thickness and obviously, will not work in this application. But,here it goes!
1 Locate the LOW spot on the tube and mark it for reference.
2 Cut two pieces of new, clean and straight .5″ (5/8′ OD) copper tubing, heat it until dead soft, then squeeze them flat, they should be a little over 1″ wide when flattened. Sheet lead with a uniform thickness would be even better. The length will be determined by two factors, the width of the vise jaws and the length of the tubing.
3 A precision milling machine vise such as a Kurt or clone of one,(the wider the better) would be necessary (PREFERABLE).
4 Place the tube in the vise sandwiched between the malleable lead or copper “buffers” and set your reference mark at TDC. The “buffers” are to prevent putting two divots in the tube where the vise jaws end if you cannot clamp the entire length.
5 Put a dial indicator on the movable jaw PERPENDICULAR to the tube and tighten a few thousandths of an inch past half the out of round measurement then check the progress. Sneak up on it, otherwise, you will have to rotate the tube 90 degrees and start over.
In my opinion, It would be in your best interest to replace the tube, even if you were able to true the bore concentric to the OD, you will end up .080″ to .160″ oversize and then would have to build up the piston tube at both ends, not to mention at that point the piston cylinder will be very, very thin. Have you tried Mike Melnick for a replacement
Bugbuster
Bugbuster
I have sent Mike several emails and called a couple times but it just went to voice mail and have yet to get any reply so I do not believe there are any parts to be had for the B40 , but the nice thing is that a TX chamber will work as they are practically the same gun.
The chamber is a very thick and hardened piece of steel so to get it to squeeze back round per your method would be a task without any results because if it was the whole chamber out of round it would require several tons of pressure in a precision set of hardened dies to squeeze it back round.
Luckily I am going to be going to the PA store next week and will take my chamber and piston with me to compare to a TX chamber and piston and if they are the same which I believe that they are I can just buy new parts for under 100 bucks and start with new parts.
My best friend here has bought a Boss Hoss 502 cubic inch motorcycle in ST. Marys Ohio which is 3 hours southwest of Solon, Ohio and has agreed to include a stop at the store on our trip so I can be sure that the parts are identical before buying along with more pellets and some other stuff and not have to pay for shipping.
I do appreciate the info as there is always time when tubing is in need of some straightening.
BD
BD,
Wow,…what a wealth of info. I made 1 1/2 pages of notes. And yes, it gave me some fps increase info. with tunes that I was seeking.
183 fps increase with the 7.9’s is real good with the HO kit/red seal tune. And 56fps with the 10.3 was good too. ( from when you first got it, before any tunes).
I guess I have a couple of questions..
1),..Are saying the TX has a “HO” kit already in it?
2),..How would you compare the seal with the HO kit compared to the oversized red seal?
3),..Why is your goal 10.34’s at 800fps avg.? Is that some magic # that works for the FT shooting that you are doing? Flatter tragectory?
(As stated before, I have a lot of shooting to do before I consider a tune ). It was good the HO kit did not increase the “thump”. I would just like the flatter trajectory that comes with FPS increases with the .22. And the fpe at impact. While not chronied yet, 750 is a long way from 1100, so no chance of hitting that dreaded supersonic barrier, even with a tune. 😉
Thanks again, good info. to “ponder” while “getting good”.
Chris
Chris, USA
Sorry for the late reply as I was out of town over the weekend.
Question 1, I do not know what spring a stock TX has in it but you can measure the wire diameter of your spring and count the coils and tell if it is a 12 fpe spring which I believe it most likely is so it should be .113″ wire diameter and 28 coils counting the closed ends.
Question 2, When you order the Vortek kits you have a choice of the proprietary red/o ring seal or a proseal red parachute type seal which is the like the stock seal in a TX only it is a yellow / white color seal. Or you can get the kit with no seal at all for 5 bucks less. I did not know what diameter the Vortek proseal red seal was but the Maccari problem solver seals stated between .995″ and 1.030″ so that is why I got the Vortek o ring seal and tried it first before putting in the largest red seal after I had shot the gun several hundred shots with the black seal and found it losing FPS. it may turn out that the red seal still does not give me what I want and a new chamber is the fix but I am still in the testing phase so cannot give any conclusions at this point.
Question 3, The 800 fps is not a magic number for FT target shooting but just as you presumed it is to get a flat a trajectory as possible to keep the hold unders as small as possible. If I could get it to shoot the 10.3s at 930 fps like my Mrod does it would be even better but I believe the recoil for that velocity would negate any benefit that the velocity provided. I would actually like to get it up to 850 fps but I believe that is a little optimistic for the gun so if I can just get close to 800 I will be happy and then starts the search for the most accurate pellet which may not even be the 10.3 JSBs so there is still a lot more variable to get sorted out.
If you are shooting a 22 TX then your spring will most likely be a good bit bigger wire diameter and coil count than the 177 model but then again I do not know for sure as I do not own a TX but rather its Chinese copy.
I will reveal more as the info is obtained. Although my testing and shooting will be at a stand still most likely the most of next week since my best friend here has just purchased a 2007 Boss Hoss motorcycle that is in St, Marys Ohio and it is a 502 CI Chevy big block with 502 HP in a 1300 pound motorcycle which has a two speed trans with second being an overdrive that is not to be shifted into until above 55 mph, it will do 120 mph in first gear before even having to shift to second and can smoke the 300mm rear tire from a stop all the way to 120 mph with ease or light it up at will at any speed from around 0 to 150 mph. the best part is I am going with him to get it and our first stop is going to be Solon, Ohio at Pyramidair’s actual store since it is only three hours away from where the bike is in Ohio. I am anxious for him to get the bike of his dreams and for me to actually go to Pyramidair’s store.
BD
buldawg76,
Thank you very much.You eased my mind.
UtkarshGurta
Glad I could help and give you some insight as to the power limitations of the 953 and what it was designed to be used for.
BD
UtkarshGupta,
Kind of an odd question. What kind of shooting are you doing at only 5ft.?
With that rifle, you should get pretty good groups at 25 or 30ft.
Just curious….
Chris
Chris,
Well ase the matter falls its all about customs.I live in India where you cant bring in a .22 or .25 or any one of the larger callibers are not allowed for import ie. in other words banned.Only .177 is allowed. That too of a specific takedown power.And they do not state the muzzle power and they go with the 1″ wood block test. Then their is custom duty from 35% to 100% and delivery charge of 100 doller ( double the price of the rifle). So that leaves me with the lowest price option to me and i left the benjamin discovery for this reason. Any one knows any seller who gives free international delivery and are there any people on this blog from india.And please can others also testify whether it will pass that wood or not(buldawg76 no offence just double checking).
UtkarshGupta
I would have to say that even an extensively modifiedd 953 wouldn’t be capable if passing through 1″ pine unless the mods included switching from one to multiple pump strokes or co2,but min’s super accurate out to 30 gfsor so
My US Shooting Team Daisy 953 (~1984 special version to help fund the USST — 853 stock, sling, peep/globe sight — “BB” loading port sealed shut, standard barrel, not the 853 barrel) achieved 450fps with the 8.3gr RWS Meisterkugeln Rifle — that’s only 3.74ft-lbs of muzzle energy.
If you’re thinking of hunting with it, don’t…
baron bulfraed,
I never thought of hunting with it but can you provide an estimate, like will it pass a PET bottle both sides. Also can any one suggest a pair of nice sights(front and rear)for it since the one with the target sights is on back order.
One last thing to say THIS IS THE BEST AIRGUNNING BLOG IN THE WORLD AND THE MOST VERSATILE ONE not only for newbies like me but also for the veterns.
UtkarshGupta
UtkarshGupta,
Yes, this is a GREAT site for anyone interested in air gunning !
You reply was very interesting and a look into another country’s “outlook” on air guns in general. The “wood block test” is a bit odd. It would seem that a “fairer” test would be the 12 fpe limit the UK has.
And the 35%~100% “duty” and 100$ “delivery” charge is,..?..well…uhhh….this is a “family site”,..so I shall refrain from comment on that. 😉
I mentioned the other day that I wish more “newbies”, [me too 🙂 ], would post comments. Welcome !, and best of luck in your air gunning adventures.
Chris
UtkarshGupta,
Welcome to the blog.
The 953 will not penetrate the wood. In fact, it will probably bounce off it and come back at the shooter. This is dangerous, so I don’t advise trying it.
B.B.
I will second that. I know for a (fact), that they will come back at you.
I set up a little “gallery” with 3″ pieces of 2×2. 1st. shot sent it off a wall 20′ to my right, continued another 10′ off another wall behind me, and another 10′, before coming to rest on my kitchen floor.
That was with a .177 pellet pistol at 429fps avg. at 24′.
Oooops!,…did I say “me” ? What I meant was,… that I “heard” that someone did this.
😉
Hiveseeker,
Still need to re-read, but 2 questions….
1) As pictured above, (minus scopes), how much do you have in each gun?
2) How many hours did it take to put together such a detailed report?
I “might” consider these, or, rather one.
Thanks, Chris
Chris,
See part 1 for the cost:
The .177 cal set up minus scope and rings was $142.68
The .22 cal set up minus scope and rings was $123.57
David
Chris,
Here is the link to the custom shop.
https://www.crosman.com/custom-shop/#
Put one together the way you want it 🙂
David
Pa.oldman,
Thank you, link and $ noted. I am very surprised at the low cost.
Co2 is easy and convienant, so that is always a “fun” factor.
Chris
Chris USA,
With thanks to Pa.oldman for saving me from looking up the numbers, these are reasonably priced guns. A couple notes: For the .177, about a third of the cost was the Lothar Walther match barrel, which is worth it. For the .22, I sprung for the simulated carbon fiber stock; if I had stuck with the standard black stock, price would have been just over $100 if memory serves.
As to how long this blog took, not including actual shooting time, I would say about 15-20 hours of writing time — but I’m a major perfectionist. As you well know, B.B. can crank out a very nice blog in one day, and I really put him to work on this one with all the tables and extra pellet and other blog links. This was also a much more detailed blog than average, with the other gun comparisons thrown in there.
If you got a little over$100 and aren’t concerned with co2 availability,build one and get it on order before summer’s gone again.Looks like we got rain coming til Monday but I picked up another 5 carts yesterday so I’d be sure to have some on hand when it clears up.I’m gonna try to get some decent 25 yd groups,which should prove interesting with my goalies,cobbled together open sights.I haven’t heard of anyone rigging their gun like I’ve got the”REBEL YELL!!!” Set up.it keeps the gun compact and lightweight and works great for close up work!I think my vision is gonna be the most limiting factor,and no scratches on the barrel til you take it off.I’m gonna find some see- through mounts and use them as far out as they prove effective and reserve the scope for long range and precise work,if I decide to go there.
Reb
B.B.,
With the TX, came a sample bottle of Napier, Power Airgun Oil. 10ml or 0.42oz.
What is it’s purpose? Where is it to be used?
Thank you, Chris
Chris,
Napier is an oil that the Brits try to sell to airgunners. Supposedly it cleans the bore and makes the pellets go faster.
When I tested it for Pyramyd AIR many years ago I found that it did none of that.
I would just leave it alone, of use it on my fishing reels, as it is a very thin lubricating oil.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you. As ususal, you are a “wealth of knowledge” and a good reminder that in all likelyhood, you have “been there, done that”. 😉
I think that I will just save it for my fishing reels,..or,…something.
Chris
A “bottle”? All I find on Napier’s site is a spray. Based on the description, I’d be afraid to do anything with it. They claim the spray can be used on all parts of spring or PCP…
But if the stuff is silicone (safe for spring chambers and PCP pressure chambers) it isn’t going to do anything for moving parts. If it’s a true oil (for hinges, water repellent, barrels) it isn’t safe for the chambers.
B.W.,
Thanks for that info. It is in, like an eye drop bottle, with the same type of tip.
Who knows? Just thought I would ask. Will hold off using,.. until further info.
Thanks, Chris
Of course you can do small pest control with a sub 12ft/lb airgun…..have a little browse of the British airgun Youtube videos to see just that, we’ve been mopping up the squirrel, rat, rabbit and pigeon population for decades with 10 to 12fpe, for rabbit sized pest you need to be able to apply 7fpe at the animal, your little carbine should be retaining approx 8.5 at 35 yards
Heck, my HW35 produces 10.5 and you could fill a truck with the bunnies that has dropped.
Pellet placement is absolutely everything though and hitting a Penny 5 times is your hunting absolute maximum range.
I’d be happier to use an ultra accurate 11ft/lb rifle than miss with 20ft/lb.
Dom,
The “penny” rule is a good one to go by. That’s what I am holding myself to.
And of course the “fpe at impact” rule as well.
I’m not ashamed to say that my “penny rule” limits me to 30 yards with a springer and 40 with my PCP, though was 5 yards further when I was younger, I guess if I had a 40 ft/lb PCP you could stretch the target size out to a dime but, ultimately you’ve got no hydrostatic shock and a limited wound channel so nothing beats the central nervous system…if that’s not a bit graphic.
It’s kinda why I don’t really “get” high energy airguns, in the lower echelons shot placement is still everything, and there’s a limit to my own accuracy that extra power doesn’t address (and in a springer often deteriorates), and the really high powered ones bring nothing I can see that a rimfire doesn’t already address.
But then, over here, rabbits are about the size of it….there’s a few pest control firms that shoot fox with 40ft/lb airguns…but most use silenced 22’s
I worry that these 150ft/lb airguns may end up subject to controls that exist for firearms (as they are here) and that the government won’t have the wit to differentiate between them and a Red Ryder.
Dom,
Not “graphic” a bit. Rather, the opposite. Well stated.
As for your 30yd. limit, I hope I can do as well. We’ll see.
And, while not in the market for a 150fpe “plinker”,..yet,..I do share your concern.
Chris
Dom,
I believe you are not off the mark in your pest control assessment, and — in skilled hands! — hunting assessment. However, B.B. and Pyramyd AIR take a very conservative approach here, and assuming you can still hit that penny or quarter (/article/Airgun_Hunting_April_2012/83) at hunting ranges, more power is preferred if available. Happily, we have a much wider range of options available today!
No, all things being equal, extra grunt is a help, most hunters here use 177, 20fpe would allow the use of larger calibres and still retain the more forgiving trajectory.
My point was, that with skill, practice and perfect shot placement…small pest control is demonstrably possible with 11fpe
But, boy, you do have to be disciplined.
Wow, this is one thorough report and just part of a series. This will be one of the most-thoroughly discussed guns in the history of the blog. I understand the point of the comment about only accurate guns are interesting, but I resist its absolutism. Consider benchresting where accuracy is taken to its limit. Most people would consider that boring. I don’t mean the kind where you put a rear bag under the rifle to get great groups. I mean the whole undertaking of handloading, fixed rest, using a camera device to release the trigger, firelapping, recrowning, barrel cooling and basically taking fanatical pains to squeeze out a few thousandths of an inch difference in groups. In this context, your most accurate gun could be pretty boring. Then, there’s the case of your quick handling carbine for snap-shooting. It wouldn’t reach the startling line for a benchrest competition. But the small barrel size and ergonomics for rapid handling mean that it could zip them in for snap shoots in a way that a benchrest rifle couldn’t compare with. The actual criteria may not be just accuracy but accuracy for a purpose. And of course, it is relative to the shooter skill…
Friday’s post puts me in mind of hunting which I assume is the purpose for such a powerful gun. What do people do with the squirrels that they kill? Does anybody eat them? I knew of one guy who reported that he was forced to eat a squirrel as a child as a lesson in not killing things without a reason, and it was not a good experience. But I also seem to recall from somewhere that they taste like chicken which doesn’t sound bad. Anyone heard of Burgoo which I was just reading about in a novel? Apparently, it is a kind of stew, common in the Midwest and especially Kentucky made out of the meat of small animals like squirrels with sauce and vegetables. It also sounds like some kind of frontier dish developed with small game that you would find in what used to be the Eastern Woodlands. The description was all about people eating big spoonfuls of the stew with the juice running down their chins. Real frontier-stuff. But it sounded pretty good.
Matt61
Matt61,
Thank you, sir. And interesting and thoughtful analysis of the Townsend quote! I could respond that it depends on what “floats your boat” or interests you as an individual, and that some (like myself) love digging into the details, tweaking things ad infinitum, and even playing around with calculations a bit. But I think the actual intent of the quote is that a gun is only interesting if you can hit the intended target. Whether you are serious as death as a military sniper, or just popping tin cans in the back yard, a gun is only “interesting” if you can hit what you are pointing it at. That was my read (and what I meant by using that quote where I did).
As to the Burgoo, I can’t help you! Though as to eating game, for me it’s always been “You shoot it, you eat it!”
Yes, I think your term of “intended target” and mine of “purpose” are essentially equivalent. I resist “whatever floats your boat” as a clliche. But cliche’s are often grounded in truth and can be amusing. When my brother was working at Taco Bell as a teenager in one of the most detested jobs of his life, he and his colleagues were required to do “suggestive selling.” If some one ordered something, you were supposed to suggest other things they could buy for a better value. Most people said no. Some got angry. Enough said yes to convince some marketing analyst that this was worthwhile. Then there was the day a rather blank-faced person showed up. In response to the suggestive sell, he said, “Whatever turns you on.”
Matt61
Matt61
I definitely eat the sqerrials if I shoot them.
We usually boil them with some onions, garlic and salt. When the meat starts falling off the bone or comes off easy with a fork then that’s done.
We then take the meat of the bone and let it set in some beer batter then bread it with some Andy’s fish breading then deep fry it.
If I never told you what it was you would think it was chicken. The trick to getting the wild taste out if you will is the boiling in the garlic, onions and salt. I like it.
Wow, this sounds like Burgoo. I always thought boiling meat removed the taste but it sounds like the various spices and ingredients can make up for that. I’m reminded of the childhood fairy tale or fable about stone soup. Some guy hoodwinks a town into giving him a free meal by claiming to make soup out of a stone. But in the process of instructing them on how to prepare it, he has them add in so many other tasty ingredients it comes out well. I don’t go in for gamey meat, but a little wildness might have it points.
Gunfun1, congratulations on your new farm by the way with all the distance for long-range shooting.
Matt61
Matt61
You got it exactly right. Depends on how much of the spices you add to make the flavor of the meat come out the way you want. And I like just a bit of the wild taste also.
And thanks about the house. And yes I will be able to stretch the guns out for sure out there when ever I want. The only way I could get out past 80 yards now has been if I go out to my brother’s house.
And out taking a break from the moving right now shooting the spring guns (Tx and LGU) the last time at this house. Got all my other stuff packed up to refill the pcp gun’s. Figerued I would leave the spring guns out so I could grab and shoot if the opportunity arose.
I sure will be glad when its done. Can’t wait to get settled in and do some BBQ’n and shoot’n at the new place.
🙂
Hiveseeker,
I said I would have some questions, but after taking a good bit of time reading your report….
What’s left to ask?
Fine, fine job,… ( and B.B. too for all the assistance ).
I will keep the 2400KT in mind for the next plinker. Looking forward to your accuracy report.
Chris
B.B., Edith,
Just noticed the “Ethical Aigun Hunting” link at the top of the page. Very nice. Watched both videos.
Is this new? If not, then sorry I missed it before now. Nice intro to air hunting.
As a thought, B.B. did a report on this very topic awhile back. In my opinion, that would be a good thing to include directly or as a link.
Thanks, Chris
B.B., Edith,
Ignore that,…It appears to be the same article. My mistake. 🙁 Very “long” week.
Very good none the less and good food for thought on “wanna be air hunters”. Nice niche within the sight.
Chris
Chris,
This is that report. Pyramyd AIR decided to make it permanent.
B.B.
Chris,
Pyramyd AIR liked that blog report so much, that they wanted it front and center. To create the page linked on the banner, we altered the blog report by removing some text that didn’t relate directly to hunting and added two video links and the article link at the end. Pyramyd AIR also linked to it in a recent email campaign that addressed hunting appropriate critters with airguns.
Thanks,
Edith
Hiveseeker, this is an extremely well-done article, but do you REALLY think you’ll have accuracy covered in just one part?
I’m looking forward to 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 7.4 and 7.7. I figure 7.5 and 7.55, and 7.6 are just going to be fluff to finish padding out your book, but the rest of it will be really useful. 😉
Thank you very much for all of the work you and Sassy Sandy are putting into this. I know if it was my gal, she wouldn’t let me take away her shootin’ iron for this long without having to make it up to her in some (probably expensive) way! It’s especially nice seeing the comparisons between the .22 and the .177 and all of the other options you had along the way, both in airguns and in ammo, and the amazing amount of data you have compiled in these articles!
Thanks, Qjay!
Most of these blog series run much shorter than this (three, maybe four, parts) but this gun is unusual in several ways–including no manufacturer specs at all, requiring more testing and research. Havining said that, though, I’ve had to trim it down a bit. We will try to wrap it all up in a hefty Part 7!
My wife’s been pretty generous in letting me spend so much quality time with her Sassy Sandy! I’m a better shot than she is, but she is an absolutely incredible shot considering how much less time she spends shooting than I do! She would certainly pass me with more practice time.
Don’t feel like you have to wrap it all up in one more part, Hiveseeker!
There’s plenty more room for more info, especially since you are testing two airguns, not just one.
That said, you are also testing several different types of pellet, in each gun, and I assume you will have pictures of the targets.
Seeing one blog entry for each gun and a third entry to wrap up the accuracy and velocity testing would not hurt my feelings at all, especially if you do have comparison data for some of the other guns you have compared to in the past entries.
bb and others,
Thank you for the warm welcome. One last question. How do we attach the front sights on the daisy powerline 953. I see a railing their but its not stated which one. The same goes for the rear too.
Utkarsh Gupta.
Utkarsh,
The stabilizer weight has a mini dovetail for the front sight to slide into with a screw for retentionand the rear clamps on like a scope would.
UtkarshGupta,
The manuals for all Daisy airguns are on this website. Scroll to the bottom of the home page and click on the manuals tab.
Here is the manual for the 953. I shows how to remove and install sights:
/airgun-resources/manuals/Daisy_953_Manual.pdf
B.B.
First impressions of the new Colt SAA BB revolver (in no particular order):
Arrived Sat. afternoon, 3/21/15 via FedEx.
Heavier than my Colt .22 lr and my .22 lr/.22 WMR Ruger Single Six Convertible were.
Vestigial ‘firing pin’ is spring-loaded and can be pushed inside the hammer.
FWIW, the hammer, when released and hitting an empty chamber with no CO2 gas installed, sounds just like I remember my powder guns sounding.
Still don’t care for the white handles—would have preferred the stag grips of the Crosman Single Action Six or even black plastic grips with the traditional colt rampant on it. Either that or wood grips. Also would have preferred it in .22 pellet caliber with a rifled bbl. I wonder if a rifled bbl could be screwed into the existing frame? Or smoothbore bbls as well. That way we could have any bbl length we wanted, from 3” to Buntline. Or could Umarex simply rifle the cylinder and leave the bbl smoothbored?
So beautiful and shiny—afraid to touch it for fear of getting fingerprints on the finish!
Would have preferred that the cylinder base pin actually worked so that the cylinder could be removed. Just one more bit of authenticity I would have liked.
I wonder if you can fire all-plastic-body darts in this gun without somehow harming it?
I wish that Umarex’s initial offering was the 4 ¾” barreled gunfighter model, with the case-hardened frame.
The lack of 4-5 hammer clicks doesn’t bother me, oddly enough. Even though that was one of the things about my powder guns that I loved, and also one of the main reasons I returned a non-firing replica Colt SAA months ago.
The hammer can not be pulled back with the safety ‘’ON’. The gun comes from the factory with the safety ‘ON’. Agatha Christie might be proud, but I imagine she’d be as initially confused by this as I was.
I notice that PA now offers on their website 4 different hand-tooled leather holsters for this pistol. They’re reasonably priced, at around $35 each. The holsters do not come with a belt for that price. I’d love to find a reasonably priced holster with a 45 degree steel insert to deflect any BBs that went off prematurely while practicing fast draw.
Joe,
Thanks for the detailed report.
B.B.
B.B.,
I chronied the .22 TX today with JSB 15.89 for the first time. (yeaaa me)
Without going into a whole lot of detail,,,here’s the results…..random pellets
From cold, low 735.5, high 801.0, avg. 768.9, spread 65.57, sd 18.22
Next was, low 689.1, high 753.9, avg. 723.8, spread 64.77, sd 22.15
The second string of 10 was weighed and head sorted. (just play’in)
Question,…How does this look in general? Overall?
I would say the chrony/gun set up was very good and steady. Gun was in a holder that is (homemade) and free to move. Gun was not held. Muzzle was 18′ from 1st eye and 3″ above. I was thinking I would not get the extreme high and lows.
What ya think?
Thanks, Chris
18″ from 1st eye,……not 18 feet.
Chris,
What I think is that you are having fun with your new chronograph.
B.B.
B.B.,
Really?…That’s it? 😉 Forget the weigh and head sort stuff.
I thought that the spread would be much less. And after only a 10 shot first string the fps avg dropped 45fps.
If you say it’s “all good” and “no worries”,…then that’s the way it is. I got 6 other pellets to try out. My groups are all touching and need to go to measuring the overall hole and deduct pellet dia. (don’t you hate that?) 😉
Just wanted your opinion on the #’s and your opinion on “gun health”.
Thanks, Chris
P.S. ….yes it is fun! 🙂
Chris
You sure are trying to put B.B. on the spot.
twotalon
TT,
No “spot” intended. None at all. And yes I know that there are a lot of variables. Maybe I was too close and getting muzzle blast error?
That spread just seemed a bit extreme,…that’s all.
Have you got any ideas or does it all sound good?
First time out, so I was just asking……
Chris
Chris
Your average velocity looks somewhere around the right area, but otherwise there is a problem.
Those are horrible velocity spreads , and the fact that the average velocity changed so much between strings , you have some kind of problem .
Could be a lighting problem with the chrono, along with your rest setup or a sick rifle , or both .
Test your other pellets and see if it still looks anywhere near this bad. Your rifle could just be having a fit over a pellet that it severely does not like.
If your other pellets all look this bad, I would check the breech seal first.
twotalon
TT,
Thank you. I suspected “something” but too much of a “newbie” to know for sure.
I will follow your advice,..check the seal and test more pellets.
One thing for sure,…this IS the place to ask!
Chris
Chris
See how it comes out, and we will explore the possibilities .
twotalon
TT,
The seal looks good from a quick glance but I will say It looks a bit “dry and chalky”, Maybe some “pellgun” oil?
And now that I think about it,…(my groups are very good and getting better). That does not sound like a gun problem, but rather a chrony/ lighting issue. I will say that it worked great from the first shot today. 100% read every shot.
Who know’s…..
Chris
Chris
DO NOT put Pellgun oil on it….detonation.
Will need to start a new thread for more. No more room.
twotalon
Chris,
Okay — go and do the same thing 10 more times. Then tell me what you have.
Too little data to draw conclusions from a gun you don’t know yet.
As for velocity, that’s what I expect from a .22 TX. The powerplant is really optimized to .177, I think.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thank you,…will do. I’ll try different pellets to see if the (spread) is still there. Yeah,..it will be different than using the 15.89’s again. But, we’ll see if the spreads are as “horrible” as Twotalon said.
Also will move the crony back to at 3′ to see if that helps at all.
As for the “optimized” .177/.22 part…that’s kind of why I was exploring simple tunes to help improve that a bit.
Thaks again, Chris
Will try to actually fire this handgun soon. Next week is really busy, learning how to use a home dialysis machine which, since it’s keeping me alive, is the immediate priority.
Here’s to all you other old geezers out there with less-than-perfectly-healthy bodies. :^>
B.B.,
You’re welcome, sir.
Thank you for all your hard work here.
JoeB
Dom– Are you using a British penny or an American penny? What is the diameter of a British penny? Ed
Now, I have something unique for the blog. Take a look at this.
http://deti.mil.by/templates/swf/Pistol/index.swf
I find the simulation uncannily realistic. You have 30 seconds for 3 shots, and your gun will move more as time passes. After 3 shots, hit the top option in the window to get another 3. Maybe Duskwight can provide some additional illumination about the Russian text.
Matt61
Want to know if you’re sick? It’s when you have a brand new airgun, in this case the Colt SAA, sitting in your office but you have no urge to take it to your basement range and shoot it.
JoeB,
Not sure what to say except,.. that I wish you all the best in getting back to good health.
While not the same,..I know what it is like to be “beat down” from a hard day at work and lacking the motivation to do anything.
I do find that once I start shooting, (lucky I can do it indoors at 41′), I feel better and really start to get “into it” and even will do 20~40 shots.
“on Orcas”,..what is that? Sorry, it is too unique not to ask.
Take care, Chris
Hi Chris,
I agree with you about shooting bringing with it its own energy.
Orcas is an island in the San Juans, off the coast of Washington state, up towards the Canadian border, about 40 minutes above Seattle. Very beautiful place.
http://www.visitsanjuans.com/the-islands/orcas-island
Thanks for asking,
JoeB
JoeB on Orcas Island,
Yes, it is beautiful,…looks like “Paradise”, if such a place exist.
I have always been “drawn” to water and fishing, but can’t swim a lick.
Who knows?,….a past life?,..though not sure I really “buy into” all that.
At any rate,….have some fun and hope all goes well,.. and even more,….gets better.
Chris
Thank you, Chris. I already feel better.
JoeB
TT,
Ok,….no pellgun oil. Got another suggestion? It does look dry and not as a seal should look.
Chris
Chris
If you could just wipe it with silicone chamber oil , but I don’t think it would do any good.
I don’t know what a TX seal should look like. I do know what a 97K seal looks like , and there is not always any way to tell if it is leaking by looks.
For now, run your other pellets and we will go from there . Hope it is just your lighting setup.
twotalon
TT,
Thanks for all your advice! Got to get outa’ here due to work at 6am. “)
Chris
Posting here as it seems the original question was in a spot not intended to have comments added…
In the Shooting Chrony line, ALL the “MASTER” models have the remoted control head.
The Alpha model has one string of up to 32 shots.
The Beta model has 6 strings of 10 shots each, and string memory can be held while unit is turned off, so one can review at home.
The Gamma model handles 50 strings of 10 shots (and includes elapsed time between shots for some reason.
Buldawg76,
At least we agree on one thing, a new compression tube is in order.
I however, respectfully disagree with you on some other points. To begin with, I am at a loss since I have no idea as to the dimensions or qualities of the compression tube. Most importantly, I do not know the nominal wall thickness or if it (the tube) is hardened, heat treated or even spring steel which is doubtful. Think about it, if it is as hard as you say it is, how can you explain .080″ wear on the bore? That is a lot! Did the piston tube exhibit excessive wear? If not , it must be harder than Woodpecker lips and the compression tube not! Your idea of a hardened die would not work because of springback, you will have to squeeze the tube past half the out of round dimension, unsupported, so the whole tube can flex uniformly, admittedly, this will not be perfect. but will be damn close. I also believe that it would not take near the force that you believe to bend the tube.
The bottom line is that we are both speculating here, you believe one thing, and I another, hopefully, you will be able to locate a replacement part and be able to repair your AG. Just for S&G, when you get your new part, as an experiment try my idea on the old one, it is junk anyway. The “buffers” won’t be necessary, but leave the solid head where the transfer port is outside the jaws.
Bugbuster
Thanks all for the valuable discussion. I’m new to airguns in general. In 6 months or so I’ve been bitten hard by the airgun bug and have graduated from two replica CO2 handguns (Umarex HPP and Colt Python 357) to a break barrel Gamo Hornet rifle and now a brand new Crosman 2400KT (14.5″ barrel). For my 2400KT, other than putting a TKO muzzle break on it, it is basically stock from the CCS.
I got a new Chrony today and was able to get avg velocities of only ~450 fps on my new 2400KT with Crosman Premier Ultra Magnum (14.3 gr) and a new Crosman 12g. CO2 bottle. I see here that the poster gets about 100 fps more with the same setup. I am confused as to why I may be getting so low velocities. I understand there will be variations between same model guns due to normal manufacturing variability, but 100 fps? I shoot down in my basement where it is a consistent 65F. Could that be the issue? I also shot with and without the TKO muzzle break and the numbers did not change much.
Looking forward to your input. Thanks.
JumboCano,
Welcome to the blog.
You’re right — 100 f.p.s. is too great a variation between 2 similar guns. The temperature will account for some of that, but not much. However with warmer weather coming perhaps you can chronograph the gun again when the temp is higher?
I suspect the difference is in your valve. Yours may be rougher than the one in HiveSeeker’s gun. It’s probably possible to smooth the gas passages in your valve and transfer port. I know the transfer port is especially critical in these guns. Also, are you sure the rubber gasket that’s between the gas tu=be and the barrel is seated correctly. There can be a loss of gas there that will reduce the velocity.
My guess is that your gun will probably increase slowly over time as it breaks in. And by paying attention ton the places I have noted, you might speed this up.
B.B.
Thanks for your prompt reply, B.B. Big fan here BTW.
I have yet to try to disassemble the gun to get to the seals, etc, but I’ll give it a go. I have a lot to read and learn about improving the performance and will get to it in the next weeks. And as you say, with warmer weather I hope to see improvements as well.
I’m somewhat frustrated that I have issues with a new gun, but it may be that these are easily fixed.
Thanks again.
JumboCano,
My guns were tested between 84-88 degrees or so. I would retest when the weather warms and see if that makes a difference. I agree that 100 fps is a wider gap than I would expect due to temperature, though.
Regarding the velocities of your 177,Ive just received my 2400kt in 177,it has a 24″ barrel .I was very worried that I went to long and should have chosen the 18″ instead after reading some thoughts of others, but to my surprise I got around 675 out of Crosman competition wadcutters and 630ish out of the Crosman heavyweights. The Crosman lead free gave me 800 fps but I think there junk. Tomorrow ill do complete strings and post them if u like
I’ve squeezed every last ounce of energy that I think possible from my C02 powered 2300kt w/14.5″ barrel and all the standard mods. This thing LOVES JSB Exact Jumbo Monster 25.39gr lead! They stack at 10 meters and fortunately have the highest energy of all weights tested. (Stacks Crosman Premium 14.3’s too at 605fps). I’ve duplicated dozens of times that at 75 degrees F with JSB 25.39gr lead a 3-4fps spread averaging 480fps for 13lbs at the muzzle! I’m betting the Summer heat will net me 500fps. I only get 9 full power shots per Powerlet now, (it was 30 when stock) which I’m fine with. I’m looking into Bulk filling C02 conversion options (no external tanks) since I already have the C02 set-up. Excellent project review series you are putting together! Fantastic read. Thank you. Darren
Darren,
sounds like you’re going through some Co2!
I just ordered a HIpac for my 2400 so I can stop changing out the 12g carts and had co nsidered going with a paintball adapter mounted to the bottom of the grip to follow the lower line of the stock. But I feel like it’s time to sign into the darker side of airguns
With this extensive write up of this article on the 2400KT I’m wondering if Crosman will now throw up it’s feet on their desk kickback and just bask in their glory/accomplishment? Or will they take it to the next level of new technologies that come along?