Home Blog  
Education / Training How powerful were the big bore airguns of the past?: Part 1

How powerful were the big bore airguns of the past?: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

The history of airguns

This report covers:

  • New blog section — History of airguns!
  • How powerful?
  • Wood was first
  • Iron and steel
  • How fast — Spaltology
  • Velocity of the big bore airguns of antiquity
  • Available air pressure
  • Why this is important

New blog section — History of airguns!

Today I announce a new section of the blog that will be dedicated to the history of airguns. Monday’s posting about the Rise of the BB gun was the inaugural report for the series — History of airguns. Today is the second in what Pyramyd AIR and I hope will become a favorite of blog readers.

My goal is to document the history of airguns in these reports, and the really neat thing is, we will keep track of all these reports on a special page that holds the table of contents. The articles listed will be links, so all you need to do is hover your cursor and click to get there!

As the number of reports grows, they will be grouped into categories for ease of management. For example, all BB gun reports will be in the BB gun section, and so on. But, until we get a few more reports, the links will just be listed as they come.

How powerful?

Today’s report addresses the power of the big bore airguns of the past. How powerful were they and how did people living 300 years ago measure the power of an airgun? They didn’t use chronographs; those were still hundreds of years in the future. So how did people in the year 1715 gauge the power of an airgun — or for that matter, of a firearm? They started simply. They judged the force of a shot by what it could do, and they set up tests to demonstrate those results.

Wood was first

The first “test” was to see how deeply a ball fired from an airgun penetrated into a piece of wood. That’s not so different from today — is it? But wood has many problems. Should it be a living tree or wood that has been cut into lumber? If lumber, should it be green or dry? Does it matter if the shot goes across the grain or with it? Does the species of wood make any difference? And so on. As it turns out, soft woods like balsa provide vastly different results than hard woods like ironwood and hickory. And it is easier to penetrate across the grain, rather than traveling with it. Wood is not a very good way to test the power of a gun.

Iron and steel

What about iron and steel? While there are many alloys of both metals, the outcome of shooting a lead ball at them isn’t affected by those differences as much as it is with wood. This was widely accepted in the past, and testing of airgun power was tied to how deformed a ball would be after it hit a steel plate. But before we continue, you must understand that the plate the ball strikes has to be immobile for what follows to make sense. If the plate can move, some of the ball’s energy is used to move it, thus rendering the flattened ball less accurate for what comes next.

In the 1957 book, Smith’s Standard Encyclopedia of Gas, Air and Spring Guns of the World, by noted gun writer W.H.B. Smith, there is a drawing of a smashed lead ball from history. It was fired from a Perkins steam gun (ca. 1825) at an immobile iron plate 100 feet from the muzzle. The ball is shown in its original shape and also as it flattened against the iron plate. If the image in the book is life-sized, the ball measures 0.453-inches in diameter. That sounds about right for a gun of the period, though it is on the small side.

ball from Perkins gun
Ball from Perkins gun, before and after striking an iron plate at 100 feet. Image taken from Lateral Science, a scientific pamphlet published July 8, 1912. Image B is on the left and C is on the right.

I know that steam is not air, but the principal of this gun remains the same. The Perkins gun had a barrel length of 6 feet and was capable of firing 500 to 1000 balls per minute. Yes, it was fully automatic — not in the sense that a machine gun is automatic, but just as a water hose sprays water in a continuous stream, so the Perkins gun sprayed bullets. Perkins’ gun generated the unbelievable steam pressure of 900+ psi, at a time when air pressure was not able to compete. More on that in a moment.

How fast — Splatology

Before I talk about the air pressure the antique airguns generated, let’s first look at that deformed ball — for it actually tells us how fast it was traveling when it hit the iron plate. Big bore maker, Gary Barnes, did extensive testing of lead balls shot from big bore airguns in the late 1990s. He discovered that all lead balls deform the same when they hit steel plates at the same velocity. So a .32 caliber ball and a .50 caliber ball both flatten by the same amount when both hit the plate at the same speed. From this he created Splatology — the science of determining the terminal velocity (velocity at the steel plate) of a lead ball by its appearance. If you follow the link, you can read that article.

There is a quiz at the end of that report. You can take it if you like and find the answers at the beginning of the next blog.

From Splatology we know that the ball from the Perkins gun hit the iron plate 100 feet away at a terminal velocity of 560 to 580 f.p.s. So the muzzle velocity had to have been higher — perhaps 625-650 f.p.s. In other words, we can accurately know the velocity of a shot taken nearly two centuries ago! That is the upper end of power for a big bore airgun from the past. But wait — there’s more!

Velocity of the big bore airguns of antiquity

One more point before I get to the air pressure at which these antique big bore guns operated. The Perkins gun was more powerful than most airguns of its day. That means that the velocity those other guns generated was also lower. However, some of the Perkins gun’s velocity was offset by the fact that it was firing a continuous stream of bullets, where the airguns fired but one shot at a time. And some more velocity is given up because the Perkins gun used steam and not air. Air is thinner than steam and flows faster through a valve. So, even though the steam pressure in the Perkins gun might get up over 900 psi and the air pressure in true airguns of antiquity does not go that high, the muzzle velocities of the best airguns are very close to those of the Perkins gun — closer than the difference in pressures would suggest. Let’s take a look at what they worked with.

Available air pressure

There are many accounts of vintage and antique airguns operating. Most of them are unsubstantiated by facts — either in the articles or from tests that have been run to prove or disprove the claims. So, in 1998 Dennis Quackenbush approached me with an idea. Why not create a couple hand pumps that were similar in all respects to those of antiquity and test them to see what they could do?

We did just that and I published the results in Airgun Revue Number 4. And I republished an abbreviated version of that article in a three part blog report in 2008. There is far too much detail to cover here, but in that series you will discover that Dennis and I proved that the hand pumps of antiquity could generate from 750 to 850 psi — though 850 was really pushing the envelope. Theoretically it is possible for a hand pump from that time to generate pressures up over 1200 psi, but to do so the pump’s piston has to be very small.  The number of pump strokes such a pump would require to fill a reservoir to that kind of pressure becomes enormous.

Suffice to say we now know that the antique big bore airguns operated at air pressures ranging from 450 to 800 psi. The earlier guns (and pumps) from the years 1600 through 1800 probably operate at the lower end of this scale, while the guns and pumps made at the end of the 19th century are at the higher end. That means whatever velocity those antique airguns were able to achieve had to be achieved by air pressurized within these limits.

You have read in this blog that velocity is achieved in a pneumatic gun by the length of time the valve remains open and the length of time the air has to push against the pellet, which is the barrel length. Only when both of these things are optimized does the air pressure come into play. So valve dwell time and barrel length are more important than the available air pressure. If you need a refresher on this concept or if you are a new blog reader and missed this discussion, look at this report.

Why this is important

Someone might look at these references and ask why it’s so important. Who cares how a big bore airgun operated in 1715? I think the answer is — you care. Or you should.

If you know what is possible with just a puny amount of air pressure in an airgun of the right design, you’ll know a lot about pneumatic airguns in general. There are airgun designers today who are building guns that use pressures of 4500 psi and more. They do it in hopes of getting more from the gun they design. But I would ask them this question — more what? More accuracy? It doesn’t work that way. An Olympic target rifle that runs on 3000 psi is just as accurate as one that runs on 4500 psi. Yes, there are several models in each category.

Does higher air pressure give you more shots per fill? Maybe — but how many more will you get? Will your gun get 3 powerful shots where a gun that fills to 3000 psi only gets 2? Is it worth the effort to find an air supply that can fill up to 4500 psi — knowing that you are limiting the number of places that can supply you air at that pressure by a factor of at least 10? When the Benjamin Discovery was launched it demonstrated to the world that air pressure is not what makes an airgun work well. It runs on a fill of just 2000 psi, yet still gets 1000 f.p.s. in .177 caliber.

Do you think greater air pressure gives you more power? Maybe that’s not important. We already have 500 foot-pound rifles shooting all the way through 1500 pound bison – how much more power do we need? Ask any big bore airgun hunter about bullet penetration and they’ll tell you that unless their bullet strikes a major bone it’s not staying inside the animals they shoot.

What I am saying is there is great value in knowing how these antique airguns worked. Knowing how airguns of the past operated gives us the foundation to design them for the future.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

283 thoughts on “How powerful were the big bore airguns of the past?: Part 1”

  1. B.B.,

    You probably know that Davis S sold several complete sets of airgun revue on the yellow for $120.00 (over a year ago) but you may not know of the recent set that sold on the white forum for $210.00. Definitely a testimony as to the quality of what you wrote many years ago and a testimony to the value of what you’re writing today.

    Thanks you for the issues that started my collection. I’ll always cherish them.

    You know I’m not the spelling police but….in your article today you said in the second to the last paragraph, “…that unless their bullet strikes a major bore it’s not staying inside the animals they shoot.” Instead of “bore” I think you meant “bone”. Forgive me. I hate spelling and grammar police and now I are one.


  2. Thank you again! Guess were locked and loaded! As I get older I have more time for this blog and many others! Can’t wait for the new one! My computer has been sending your returns to junk? Semper fi!

  3. BB
    This is a very great blog and comes at a time when I am building me a 25 caliber marauder into a hyper powered bottled beast to out shoot a much higher dollar custom gun and the fact that I don’t need the high air pressure but rather proper flow and balance of the system as a whole to achieve my goal is very inspiring and a real confidence boost.

    I am trying to complete the gun right now but my health has been fighting me for the last week as I have all the parts to complete it but just cannot seem to get my body to cooperate and get it put together. I am in hopes of having it completed and tuned to post results and some pictures when you do the last report on your 25 marauder conversion as mine is using all the same parts as yours with the exception of the air cylinder and internals.

    It is supposed to be capable of shooting 45 grain pellet/bullets at 1050 fps for 100 fpe but the accuracy is what will determine my final tune and pellet/bullet selection as I have a sampler pack of air gun specific 25 caliber hollow point spitzer bullets on their way in 31gr, 37gr and 45grains to test along with the JSB 25.39 and 33.95s and H&N 31.02. So hopefully out of those 6 projectiles I can find one to tune to shoot at 70 to 100 fpe and group with in 1 inch at 100 yards to out shoot this high dollar custom gun in my FT club.

    When done I will have approximately 1100 dollar total in the gun with all the parts and mods done to it so we will see if the claims of the parts maker are true or not and if I can put a frown on our FT member face when my half the price of his gun that I built out shoots the gun he paid someone else to build for him at over twice the cost.


      • BB
        It is a Wicked Air Rifles 500cc bottled kit that use the same RAI stock and butt adapter as you put on your 25 marauder but instead of the factory air cylinder it has a drop down block right at the end of the modular stock with a 500cc 3500 psi bottle on the front and I am using their WAR valve and a Huma regulator set at 160bar/2300psi output. I am hoping for at least 40 shots in the 950 to 1000 fps range and possibly more as it all depends on what give me the best accuracy at 100 yards with which ever pellet/bullet groups best at what velocity.

        Do you have a date as to when the last report on your 25 marauder will be or are you done with the report on it as I was thinking you still had a 50 yard test to go and was going to post result and pictures of my 25 when that report is posted so if its already done then I will post when I get it together and tuned to the level that works best at 100 yards.


          • BB
            You should be able to tune it to get 16 shot per fill with JSB 25,39s shooting in the mid to high 800 fps with out any problem you just need to max out the hammer spring and shorten the stroke with the air screw wide open and you will be close but it may require a fill to 3200 psi instead of 3000 psi.

            Waiting for the next report and I got my Brod for bottled Mrod together today as far as just having to install the breech/barrel assy in the am and it is filled to 2000 psi overnight to test for leaks so if it passes the leak test then the barrel will be installed and testing will begin.


    • Bulldawg76,

      I applaud your efforts as well. Regarding health, I’m right there with you brother. We’ve got to be tough SOBs to fight through all this and come out the other end kicking and screaming.

      What I can appreciate about what your attempting to do is the fact that the cost is $1,100. However, I have no idea how much a maker such as Crosman would charge for a rifle that cost them $1,100 to build. But I would be willing to gamble something that it would approach $2,000.

      On the other hand, I appreciate less that you are starting with a Marauder. That seems to me to be somewhat unimportant since the rifle you end up with probably does not resemble a Marauder very much except for the general configuration. By the way, are you using the original Marauder barrel or something else? Since it is a .25 cal. gun the barrel is a Green Mountain one right?

      I’m sure the custom F.T. gun that is your quarry does not shoot 100 fpe nor can it by rule so that comp. is less important too. I would rather see your rifle shoot 19 fpe and group .30″ to .40″ ctc at 50 yards as far as a comparison is concerned. But I understand that would be under powered for .25 cal.

      In any event, good luck and I look forward to your final product regardless of caliber or FPE.


      • Tandwweir
        Yea it sucks getting old and if I would have known I was going to live this long I would not have beat my body up with dirt bike and drag bikes so much ( just kidding as I would not change a thing ) as I had way to much fun and would still be doing it today if my body would cooperate as my mind still has the burning desire to live on the edge as the adrenalin rush is second to none.

        I agree if crosman was to build a gun or modify a marauder like I am doing it would be well over 2000 bucks to sell for a profit. I am able to do it because I get a very good deal on the 25 marauder which has allowed me to build the gun I want for easily half the price.

        The gun is exactly the same as the 25 that BB is testing with the RAI modular stock and AR butt stock with fold away butt stock option. The difference is the 500cc bottle and highly modified WAR valve and regulator being installed to allow for the huge power increase and shot count over a stock marauder. No the Rapid HM1000x shoot JSB 25.39 grain pellets at 930 fps for 48.77 fpe so I will be shooting at 70 to 100 fpe so that I can not only hit the 100 yard spinner as his Rapid does but actually spin it several time around instead of just swinging it back and forth.

        I already have a 19.8 fpe 177 marauder that does shoot .3 to .4 inch groups at 50 yards so I don’t need two guns for the same purpose as my 177 is my FT gun and shoots JSB 10.34s at 925 fps for 40 shots with a 15 fps spread.

        I am building the 25 to see just what can be obtained out of one and to prove my fellow FT club member that you don’t have to spend 2500 dollars to have a custom gun built for you to do the same thing as his Rapid does and he made me the challenge that it could not be done with a marauder so as always I have become used to being the underdog and never accept the statement it cannot be done as I have yet to be proven wrong with all my toys I have now as I have a 76 Shovelhead that will outrun any new twin cam Harley that rolls off the showroom floor since I was told that it could not be done and proved them wrong. I am not about to give in now as I now it can be done and I will get all the satisfaction of building and tuning it myself which to me is what its all about as anyone can throw money at someone and have it built for them but its the man that choses to do it himself that truly is the winner.

        I will post results on the next report that BB does on his 25 marauder.


        • Bulldawg76,

          Wow. My Marauder doesn’t come close to those size groups. Nor does anyone else’s I know. Well, I shouldn’t say it doesn’t come close cause I will occasionally get groups of 1/2″. You must have gotten lucky with the barrel.

          I can relate to being told I can’t make something happen. My neck hairs stand up also. Actually I respond that way to almost any challenge which is not always my best character trait.

          But, to reiterate, you are having to build it yourself to get such a high quality rifle at that price. That’s something most of us would(will) never do. I really hope you can do it.


          None of my Rapids (I have 2) shoot that fast. I have a T.M. .20 caliber for F.T. and benchrest tuned for 19 FPE and a B.M. 500 .177 cal. shooting at just under 12 FPE for benchrest (light varmint class). Of course your friend’s HM1000 is for hunting

          • G&G
            My .177 Marauder shot the JSB 10.34’s in the lower 900 fps range. And I got .500″ center to center groups all day long. I would get a occasional .375″ center to center groups. And .450″ groups came pretty often.

            That’s what surprises me when people say they don’t get that good of groups with a .177 caliber Marauder.

            Now a .22 caliber Marauder no luck for me but there are people that say they do get good results with them.

            Now my .25 Marauder is a real good shooter I guess for the .25 caliber. I can hold .650″ to 750″ center to center groups all day long with it. And that’s even after I just turned the power up on it

            • GF1,

              Well, as I said, 1/2″ with my .177 Marauder is about the best I can get and as you know I’m no slouch when it comes to benchrest. I am telling the truth, I know several people with Marauders of different calibers and none of them shoot any better either. I must be in the part of the country that get’s the average Marauders.

              Beyond that, I can’t remember ever seeing a Marauder doing particularly well in any competitions. Almost no one ever uses one for that. We need to remember that the Marauder was never intended to be a match gun and it’s not. But it’s a heck of a budget rifle. Of course, with significant modification it can be a match gun but then it’s not really a Marauder anymore is it?

              Again, don’t get me wrong, I like mine very much. Especially since I put the custom stock on it as I really hated the Gen 1 wood stock. But I wouldn’t dream of using it when I need my best effort.


              • G&G
                For some reason I’m like that. Even flying my R/C airplanes in competion to drag racing and motocross racing.

                I never had high dollar equipment. I didn’t win all the time but I definitely took my fair share of the money home.

                And got to tell you a little secret. I always ate my Wheaties when I was a kid growing up. It ain’t got nothing to do with what part of the country you live in.

              • G&G
                And forgot on the serious side here.

                Getting the tune right on a Marauder makes all the difference in the world for the pellet you choose.

                A Marauder will shoot fairly good out of the box. But when you get the striker and spring adjustment and transfer port adjustment right they are heck of good shooting guns.

                Believe me I know. I think over time I have had 7 different Marauders. You got to know how to tune them to get the full bennifit out of them.

              • Tandwweir
                I disagree with your statement that a marauder does not do well in competitions or was not intended to be a competition gun. I shoot with several national champions in my FT club and one being a three time national champion shoots a marauder exclusively and was used to win the championships and are you forgetting that Ray Apelles of Team USA shoots a marauder as his competition gun.

                So I do believe that a marauder is indeed and very fine candidate for competition match shooting and my 177 is a GEN 1 in a Boyds thumbhole blaster stock which makes a world of difference as to the ability to hold and steady the gun in my FT matches. My marauder is far more accurate than I am as with it secured in a shooting rest it will drop pellet on top of pellet at 50 yards provided there is no wind to affect the pellets flight as that is how I sight my guns in so it takes the Me out of the equation. Then once sighted it is all up to me to do as well as the gun is capable of shooting which I am my worst enemy at a match since I have shortness of breath and easily elevated heart rates and our FT range is in the woods with hills and ravines I have to navigate from shooting lane to shooting lane which gets me out of wind and my heart racing and I have to battle those to keep the gun as steady as possible to hit my targets.


          • Tandwweir
            I am sorry your Mrod does not shoot better groups but let me ask if you have tuned it different than the factory setting to get the best power/shot count for the pellet you use or it likes as stock it is just mediocre in its performance and will not perform as well as it is capable of shooting.

            I have mine tuned to shoot JSB 10.34s at and average of 925 fps for 40 shots with a ES max of 15 fps over the 40 shots at a 3000 psi fill down to 2300 psi and make 19.8 to 19.5 fpe from the start of a fill to the end of the fill. So if you are not shooting at least above 850 fps with whichever pellet you use that may be the reason you cannot get better groups. I shoot in the hunter class which allows for 20fpe power level so I am tuned right at the upper limit so as to keep as flat of a trajectory as possible and allow for only three holds in sighting which are dead zero from 20 to 40 yards, 1 mil dot under at 41 to 55 yards and 2 mil dots under from 10 to 19 yards.
            We have kill zones from 1/2 inch to 1 1/4 inch on our field targets and there is one maybe two target at 50 yards with 1/2 inch kill zones so to be able to drop those target you must shoot inside of 1/2 inch circle. We also have a spinner on our sight in range that is 3/8 inch square at 50 yards and I can spin it repeatedly.

            I have always played the underdog and have very seldom if ever lost a challenge as I buy used and rebuild to my liking and level of performance and spend less in the long run than buying new and having to modify to my liking anyway.

            There is no hope in doing it as I KNOW I can do it and have no doubts as to winning the challenge with ease so its just a matter of time and perseverance to achieve the goal. I am the type that will always build what I want rather than buy it as I cannot buy the exact gun I want with the limited funds I have but I can build anything I want as my labor is free and am capable of doing the machine work or have friends that can/will help do what I cannot, So it is not a choice I have to buy the gun I want as I have to build what I want since nobody make what I want that I am willing to pay them what they want for it and the satisfaction of building it myself far outweighs any price I would pay to buy it . Even if I had unlimited funds I would still build my guns as its just in my nature to do so and that will never change.


  4. BB,

    Thanks for yet another great report. I truly am looking forward to more in this series, as I have long been an amateur history-buff and this is a new topic for me. Seriously, thank you.

    Spelling police? Read almost any of my posts/comments and you’ll very quickly see that I have NO room to talk 😉


  5. B.B.

    Some hours later I must bring here some links to photos I made in Vienna Arsenal. Several examples of Girardoni rifles and, what’s more important, speaking of fill pressure, the pump. It’s actually a hand pump and something I could call Da Pump.


  6. Excellent move BB. This should be fascinating as a series, and this particular topic is a fine way forward. Presumably the Griardoni/Girandoni military rifles were competitive enough to be used alongside and against conventional Brown Bess powder burners, what sort of power did they put out?

  7. BB,

    Put me down for a 1000 PSI Liege style big bore! Seriously. I use a hand pump. Filling a Benjamin Rogue that way is a chore.

    Though it is not a big bore, I have been considering getting a Marauder and tuning it down to 2000 PSI. I have a Talon SS that had an operating pressure of 1800 PSI. I was also getting 30+ shots. When I finish rebuilding it, I am going to try to adjust the valve to be in that range again. Filling an air rifle to those pressures is so quick and easy.

    • RR,

      If your Talon SS has a 24-inch barrel, that is a rifle I built for my late friend, Mac. He wanted raw power and I got it at a lower fill pressure. And check the barrel length. It may be 25 inches. If so, it’s a Weihrauch barrel — not a Lothar Walther.


      • BB,

        Same one. If you remember I sold the barrel at the Roanoke show and bought my 1906 BSA. I have an 18″ .25 LW barrel for it now. I will be concentrating on accuracy with this and not power, though I am certain it will have plenty for the task. I am also not concerned with shot count. I will likely end up with about 20+ shots with a fill pressure of around 2000 PSI. With such a low fill pressure it will not take much effort to refill if I need to.

    • RR
      I remember you and BB talking about that Talon. Remember I asked if you wanted to sell it.

      And by the way how do you like Lloyd’s Rogue? How does it shoot and what are you using for ammo?

      • GF1,
        Well, it is not for sale at the moment. I am not anywhere near finished tinkering with it. I probably never will be. 😉

        As for the Rogue, I sure am glad I did not buy one. I have shot several different bullets ranging in weight from 105gr up to 170gr. I have also shot the H&N Grizzly and JSB pellets through it. I have tried all kinds of variations of the programmed settings. About the best group I have gotten has been around 4″ at 50 yards. Not likely going to win the Extreme Benchrest or LASSO with that.

        And man, does it ever suck down the air. It is definitely not hand pump friendly.

        Crosman had the opportunity to really do something and they blew it. They changed Lloyd’s original design in order to make it cheaper to build and ended up producing a big bore boondoggle.

        • RR
          So that Rogue is a production model? For some reason I thought it was a one off that Lloyd made first before it went into production.

          And don’t you just hate when somebody changes a design and messes it up. Sometimes it pays to just leave well enough alone.

          And I see you took the hint about the Talon. Are you sure you don’t want to sell it? 🙂

                  • GF1,

                    Not slip’n, just not paying attention. You do have me scratching my head though. I seem to recall at one point that you liked it better than the TX200. What changed your mind?

                    Do you still have your Marauders? Check out what I commented to Reb just below. Food for thought.

                    • RR
                      I ended up getting another 4 wheeler for the kids. The LGU was my only .22 caliber airgun that I had so I decided to sell it to help with the 4 wheeler. Now no more .22 caliber air guns. So don’t need to by any .22 caliber pellets.

                      I have right now the 1077 converted to HPA, the Tx and FWB 300s I got from you. And the M8. All .177 caliber rifles. And my gen2 Woodstock .25 caliber Marauder.

                      I’m right now debating on getting a .177 LGU or a .177 air king again. I had a .177 air king at the other house but it was a hair on the loud side. Out here where I’m at now it don’t matter. I shoot firearms out here now. And I think I used the air king as a trade in on the Monsoon.

                      But that’s what I got now and where I think I’m going.

      • Exactly what I am saying. That is to me a major selling point for the Marauder. Give it a 24″ LW barrel, lengthen the shroud, lengthen the reservoir to match and tune it to 2000 PSI. It will be just as powerful, if not more so, easy to fill and if you tune it right, probably as accurate any air rifle out there, bar none.

        • RR
          Why give it a 24″ Lothar Walther barrel?

          The .177 and .25 caliber barrels are just fine. The choices Crosman made on the components in those models are matched nicely.

          Of course it’s possible to make changes to anything. But I don’t think that there would be that big of improvement if a different barrel was installed in the calibers I just mentioned.

          But I guess if it would help a mediocre shooter be a little better. Than good I suppose. It’s all about what a person wants out of a gun I guess.

          • GF1,

            With the longer barrel you can make more efficient use of the air, most especially if I lower the operating pressure to 2000 PSI.

            I had a .177 25″ HW barrel on the Talon SS originally. Tuning it down as low as I could and putting an o ring behind the top hat allowed me to shoot 16 gr Eunjins at around 800 FPS. Everything else still went supersonic. Lots and lots of power for a .177. I just could not hit anything with it. With the Eunjins it was grouping about 1″ at 25 yards. Everything else looked like a shotgun blast.

  8. Something needs to be remembered about a valve under high pressure.

    It is harder to make that valve open.

    A high pressure valve at a lower pressure is easier to open.

    That means that lower pressure valve would use a lighter spring, a lighter hammer or striker. And it wouldn’t need to swing as far.

    And then comes figuring out the right settings to get a consistent fps. And once that’s done is that the correct setting to give the optimum performance from that projectile.

    And ain’t even got to the part of the equation with how the pellet or whatever is used fits the barrel. The sealing of the projectile to the rifling of the barrel. Oh and forgot maybe that big bore air gun is a smooth bore. Now how do we get the right shape and fit of the projectile. I don’t know if I want to call it a pellet. Maybe a round ball. Maybe a dumbell shape.

    And what is the best way to control a valve. Mechanical with cams or electronically with solinoids.

    BB yes I have been paying attention in airgun history class. Only if they taught us this stuff in history class throughout school.

    Although I do remember one history teacher talking about Lewis and Clark and air guns. That was Lewis and Clark wasn’t it? 😉

    And BB by the way I’m happy you are making a history section. Love reading about air gun history. I was like that growing up with cars and motorcycles and airplanes and so on. Read and tryed to learn everything I could about them. So keep the air gun history comming. I’m listening. No skipping this class. I promise. 🙂

  9. I’m guessing that the relative inefficiency of the material used and the tolerances material technology dictated in the early days was somewhat overcome by the rolling resistance of the heavy balls fired….creating it’s own valving effect in much the same way a pellet skirt is part of the process, certainly with spring piston guns.
    The upkeep and maintenance must have been hard with leather seals having to be kept moistened with organic greases and tallows

    • Dom,

      I have 2 springers and a pumper (the Crosman 101) that have leather pistons that have lasted decades with the only maintenance being a couple of drops of oil in the chamber each time I open a new can of pellets.

      I recently serviced the Kelly (clean/lub and replaced the spring) and it is shooting very smoothly and consistently at 500 fps. It is well over 30 years old and has a leather piston.

      Modern technology has made fantastic advances but the old technology still has merit. For example, flint knapping – a 10,000 year old “primitive” technology produces obsidian or chert blades that are 500 times sharper than a razorblade!

  10. The History blog is going to be very interesting! Love the details on how thing work.

    You should never underestimate the power in those antique air weapons!

    When I was a teenager my friend’s father found out that I had made a leather piston seal for my Crosman 101 and asked me to make one for the air-cane he had. I don’t know what caliber it was but the bore was “pinky-size” (is that a valid unit of measure?) so I am guessing it would be around .375 diameter.

    Anyway, I was not present when he tested the air-cane by shooting it into the fireplace (duh!!!) but I saw the damage to the fire-bricks and was told that all the ash in the fireplace was spread all over the room. 🙂

    I did see some tests where a moderate number of strokes would easily drive the ball through a 2×4. Pretty awesome piece!

  11. I am on a roll today LOL! Came across this and thought I would share it.

    Slightly off topic… I have mentioned a couple of time that my rifle shooting style is heavily influenced by my archery experience. Well, I now realize it goes further back than that – all the way back to my years of hunting with slingshots.

    I recently bought some latex sheets and tubing for slingshot bands as I promised my granddaughter we would make a couple of slingshots this weekend.

    While surfing the net looking for materials I came across the Pocket Predator site with excellent instructions on how to shoot a slingshot. He calls the process: SLIDAAR. Stance, Look, Inhale, Draw, Anchor, Aim, Release.

    I included the instructions I copied below (a BIG thank-you to the author!) for your reference. If you think bow or pistol or rifle instead of “slingshot”, I feel that the gist of the instructions are still very valid. Have a read and see what you think…

    Copied from http://www.pocketpredator.com/

    For each and every shot, until it becomes automatic reflex, force yourself to go through each step in aiming. SLIDAAR

    1. Take your Stance. Stand exactly sideways to your target, feet shoulder width, even weight distribution on both your feet.

    2. Look at your target in HD (High Definition). If it’s a coke can, don’t look at the can… read the label and shoot at a letter, not the can. You’re aiming at the target within the target.

    3. Inhale, pushing your stomach out completely filling your lungs.

    4. Exhale slowly begin to Draw the bands in the low position at the same time.

    5. Raise and finish drawing the slingshot to your Anchor slightly ahead of aligning your aiming hand… Aim making sure your bands are exactly in line and centered vertically on the target.

    6. Do not rush your shot. Only release when everything is perfect. If it’s not perfect, don’t fire… do steps 1-5 again.

    7. Release with a relaxed movement pulling back and away with the pouch holding hand.

    8. Periodically check to make sure you’re not overcompensating with the hold on your slingshot… that is, sometimes people will tighten their holding hand to much at the point of release trying to compensate to much for the release of tension… incidentally moving the fork a little just prior to release, throwing off the shot. This is the “yips”

    • Vana2
      Now where was this slingshot theory back when we were shooting our homemade sling shots as I did stand sideways to my targets and slowly pulled the bands back until I was at a comfortable aiming and release point but did not breathe or necessarily release in a relaxed fashion but I was quite accurate with them after I found that large very round ( 1.2 inch ) sized marbles or ball bearing were easiest to hold in the pouches as they had more diameter to grip with and also did way more damage to the targets I shot at and especially liked the marbles shattering on hard targets like rocks or metal stakes. I did shoot rock as well but their non uniform shapes made for some guess work in the trajectory they would take so I tried to stick to marbles and ball bearing if possible.

      I would have like to seen that air cane as it would be great as a self defense weapon for using in the “no firearms allowed zones” we have today since technically it is not a firearm but would most definitely stop an attacker in his tracks from the impact of the projectile and if not just the fact that there was no powder involved. I do use a cane at times as well does the wife so that would be a great weapon of open carry with no attention drawn by law enforcement or the authorities, much less a criminal. Alabama is an open carry state but the police still tend to frown upon it even though no laws are being broken so the Air cane would be perfect.


    • Vana2
      I had a couple of those wrist rockets as a kid and I have one now that I got about 6 years ago.

      They are definitely accurate and deadly. I used mine as a kid to shoot snakes around the farm when they were in a unwanted place.

      There also was a overabundance of carp in the lake out on the farm. They use to be up around the bank in the shallow water. We use to shoot them in the head with the sling shot. Most of the time they would float to the top. They got brought back to my dad. I remember him chopping them up and putting them in buckets and throwing them out in the feild before he plowed at the beginning of the season and after harvest. So I always new I would get some sling shot action.

      • GF1

        Its my Friday off today and I am going fishing with my granddaughter in a couple of hours. We have specific instructions to catch some fish for supper. My daughter (the family gardener) also wants the fish “trimmings” to soak in water to put on the vegetables. The fish-water seems to help – the tomato plants are over 6 feet tall!

        I have had a couple of the commercial slingshots (one of them was a wrist-rocket) but I always preferred my home made ones that were tailored to my draw length and preferences. Potted many a partridge, rabbit and squirrel with them.

        The best thing that I made for rabbit and partridge hunting was a cross between a rabbit-stick and a boomerang. It was basically a very heavy hardwood boomerang (’bout 1 3/8″ thick) that would “fly” in the ground-effect at an 6″ altitude. Worked great!

        • Vana2
          Now your talking boomerang. I had a few store bought ones when I was a kid.

          I did make a simple one to teach my daughters with. I glued two wood paint stirring sticks together at the end you hold at a little bigger than a 90 degree angle. Worked great.

          And have you ever tryed taking two strings tied to a leather pouch. Make a slip knot in one string and put it on your pointing finger then you hold the other string with your finger and thumb. Put a rock or whatever in the pouch and start swinging it at your side. You just point your finger at what you want to hit.

          I found all I needed to do is one rotaion and point and let go. You could really get some good velocity at close distances. And I could even hit things far away out in a feild by just releasing with my finger pointed up a little higher.

          I need to show my daughters how to use one. I don’t think I have yet.

              • Gunfun1
                You better start practicing so you can hit the bad guy and not your wife or daughters and I tried one of those as a kid also but found it way to hard to be accurate as compared to a slingshot and the slingshot is quicker to load and shoot but may not have as much power since the sling can hurl large rock a good distance with a lot of power so I would say its more of an outdoor weapon and not a home defense tool.


                • Buldawg
                  It’s to stop the bad guys out at the farther distances. 🙂

                  And you know its all in the wrist with string and pouch.

                  And I was actually pretty good with the string sling and a sling shot.

                  I could hit birds at 30 yards with the sling shot. And I use to wait for a flock of starlings to land out in the feild when I was a kid and sling rocks at them with the string sling.

                  So could you imagine using them at night time on some body that ain’t suppose to be on your property and they are up to no good. All I can say is the string sling is deadly quiet. With just one revolution with a quick flick of the wrist you wouldn’t even hear any wind noise from the string.

                  • L.S,

                    The roman legions used slingshots quite a lot. Not the regular soldier, but the auxiliaries, mostly non Romans supporting the legions. They made slingshot munition by putting a thumb in sand and filling the hole with lead or they used round brick balls (an amazing 3,5 “ size) . These are about 200 grammes. I have some lying around here.

                    They were quite feared with them as they could put up quite a barrage with those as reloading is fast. So defense is not a real bad idea if you train the whole family with them.


                    I love this subject as my interest is in older guns and technology. I for instance would be quite interested to see how Weirauch kept their HW50 that long in production and how they incorporated new technology in a gun which has held the same good reputation over the years. I was just contemplating this as I recently bought a 2 year old 50 and a basket case HW50 of the 70’s to restore. They are the same guns, but they handle quite differently.

                    Another subject of interest for a blog would be the status of older springs. This HW has something which still shoots but is definitively not regularly coiled anymore. When is it better to replace and when is it better to keep? I do not want to change the character of the old gun to much as that is a why I have them. From clock springs I know that the springs of around the 1900’s are at least halve as strong as the current new ones of similar dimensions and I have to buy thinner springs in order to get good results when repairing them.



                  • Guynfun1
                    Yea a sling would be good at longer distances and is a deadly weapon in the right hands. I was pretty good with my wrist rocket as well and would save the ball bearings out of failed bearings in the cars I worked on for my ammo and a hardened steel ball are very devastating to most anything you shoot with it since it is harder than most all other objects you would shoot with it .

                    A night time intruder hit with a steel ball bearing would likely be seriously injured if not killed when hit by a half inch ball bearing as it would not mushroom but rather likely go clean thru them or at least do major internal damage and yes I could hit a persons center mass at 30 feet as well.


                    • Buldawg
                      I would say it would put a damper on their intrusion.

                      Especially if you kept slinging projectiles at them. And they didn’t know where they were coming from.

                  • Gunfun1
                    Now I got to get my wrist rocket out and start practicing with it so I can bombard them intruders with rapid fire ball bearings but just need to get good enough so that I don’t miss and leave huge holes in all the walls.LOl

                    I will just stick to my 8 round 12 ga shotgun as its much easier to throw 9 balls at a time at them.


                    • Buldawg
                      No not in the house.

                      Use that sling shot and the string sling if you see somebody messing around out on your property.

                      Remember I ain’t got nobody around me. And there ain’t suppose to be nobody around me.

                      Unless I know about it.

                      I guess I need to post signs around my property that says beware of falling rocks.

                      I wonder if they would get it since all there that’s out there is feilds and trees.

                  • Gunfun1
                    I don’t have near the property you have so it could be a neighbor walking over to talk or who knows as I live in a small neighborhood and not out on several acres without any one for 1/4 miles or more so it would not be hard for me to miss and hit a neighbors house with the slingshot or string sling.

                    I was talking about my shotgun inside my house as a middle of the night intruder in the house is going to get a big surprise with 8 rounds out a semi auto 12 ga with alternating 00 buckshot and #4 buckshot then I have a 38 special right next to my bed as well and a 22 mag both being revolvers and then two carbon fiber knives so I have a small arsenal within arm reach.

                    I will not be a victim in my own home by any means in this day and age. the wife has a 9mm semi auto next to her as well and is actually a better shot with a pistol than I am so intruders beware as you will not get out alive.


                    • Buldawg
                      I got the home defense part covered for inside the house.

                      And nope no neighbor’s walking over to talk.

                      But no I really wouldn’t use a sling shot or string sling for outside protection either. I doe have that covered also.

                      But you never know what weapon you will need to learn how to use if there was some kind of disaster that happened.

                      So that’s why I plan to and have been teaching my daughters about shooting, hunting, fishing and how to use alternate means of protection.

                      So you just never know when a sling shot or string sling could come in handy.

                    • G&G
                      That’s a good question. I remember it was mentioned a while back when we were talking about sling shots. But I don’t remember what the fps was. Sorry.

                      And on the string sling I don’t know either. I never had a chrony back then.

                      I do know this though that we use to shoot at a old car door that was in a scrap pile out on the farm when I was a kid. I would say we were 30 to 40 yards away and it would put big dents in the doors.

                      My dad worked by a steel mill also and the train tracks went right past his work. They would have the slag on the train cars. They were gray color round pepples about the same as size of a marble and smooth and semi round ( definatly not as good as a ball bearing but they worked). My dad would bring me 5 gallon buckets full home. But that’s what we shot with.

                      I use to shoot sqerrial and rabbit with the wrist rocket sling shot all the time.

                    • Tandwweir
                      Check out the link that Vana2 placed in his post above about the pocket predator slingshots as it stated that they are getting around 260 to 300 fps with 1/2 inch lead balls and has videos of the guy lighting matches and cutting playing cards in half at over 100 feet distances.


          • GF1,

            The store bought boomerangs are typically light weight “sport” ‘rangs for looping flight. The ones I made were designed for straight-line flight. They would loop if you put a lot of snap into the throw but they were way too heavy for that – besides, it was safer that they didn’t come back!

            Yup, slingshot in the back left pocket, sling in the back right. I make my slings with long (shoulder to finger-tip) leather straps or if I don’t have leather, hockey-skate laces make a good substitute. One rotation and release – there was no accuracy or extra power in multiple rotations and it was out and out dangerous!

            Awesome power and range on a sling, with practice quite accurate as well.

              • GF1,

                The fishing was pretty good. Mostly bass and panfish – my granddaughter caught a nice pike that she was very excited about.

                When we go out in mid afternoon we bring a big snack and it is more for fun than serious fishing – we had a 20-minute water-fight that left both of us soaked. Growing old is mandatory… growing up is optional 🙂

            • Ha. Fellow slinger. That’s a type of shooting that I’ve been neglecting. I’ll try to squeeze it in with archery on future range trips. Your sling sounds on the long side, and reminds me of the famous Balearic slingers favored by the Roman armies. They came from the Balearic islands that I think are off Spain. These guys carried three slings of different sizes, the longest of which they wrapped around their waists; I forget where they put the other ones. They must have had a lot of spacing when they broke out the long ones. And you’re right about the practice which was probably even more intense, if anything, than the longbow. The story is that they were trained for accuracy from childhood by having their meals mounted on poles, and they didn’t get to eat until they knocked they meal down with their sling.

              You’re right on about the single rotation. This was the suggestion of an Apache Indian who was supposed to know the ancient secrets of his tribe. That’s hard to verify, but this guy was apparently able, from a distance of 35 yards, to hit an iron rung of the kind they used to have on telephone polls any time he wanted.


    • This reminds me of a question which you might be able to answer from your archery background. While I was shooting my traditional recurve and longbows recently, a kid asked me how I was aiming. He had a compound bow with a sight. When he mentioned it, I realized that I didn’t know. I aligned the body, looked at my aimpoint, and that was it. So what is the answer for traditional bows. And the same question is even more interesting for a traditional sling where the body alignment is not so crucial.


      • I have always found that consistent stance was critical. Didn’t matter if it was throwing a ball, swinging a bat or golf club or sling, shooting a slingshot, bow or a gun, the stance was the foundation for the delivery.

        Like you, I shoot a bow instinctively and have no idea on how much compensation I use – my subconscious takes care of those details.

        Same with hold-over/under with the rifles – auto-pilot 🙂

  12. BB –and all readers- some more air gun history—-1795. England in on the verge of a revolution- King Georges, carriage is attacked by a mob (the King is rescued by his guards)-Lord Onslow, sitting next to the King claims that the object that went through the coach window, missing the King ,came from a” wind gun or blowpipe”. Later, there was a strong rumor that the King was to be killed at the opera, by a poison dart, fired by an air gun. This is known as the “pop gun plot”. Dr. Parkinson (he named the disease) was implicated in the plot, but it never took place. Can you imagine what history would have been like, if the King of England had been shot or killed with an air gun ? My source for this information is ” the Great Mutiny” by James Dugan (p29). Ed

  13. B.B.,

    I’ve been a history freak since I was a kid. I could never get enough of Greek and Roman history. I took four years of Latin in High School mostly for the history. Nowadays any time period or part of the world fascinates me.

    Anyway, you couldn’t have picked a more interesting topic for me given my penchant for history and current infatuation with air guns.

    Have a great weekend and have some fun.


  14. Fascinating. There’s a lot here to digest, but one question jumps out now. What is the mechanism of the Perkins steam gun that could perform like a machine gun without being one? I imagine a continuous jet of steam from a reservoir with an opening like a coffee grinder where you can feed down the lead balls…

    I just caught up on the called flyers blog. So, B.B., you are coming out against the wisdom of focusing on the front sight only? Interesting. I would have thought that would degrade accuracy, but apparently not. Also, superstar shooter David Tubb claims that the way to follow through is to call your shot. So the two processes are intertwined.

    Sam, I believe you may have come up with the most interesting blog question in some time with this issue of scope height over bore. I’m not aware of any blog on this subject, although I may well have missed it. Anyway, to save B.B. the trouble and for my own interest, I looked around on the internet. This topic comes up quite a bit in forums, but there seems to be a lot of disagreement about it. What looks to be a slight majority seem to think this effect does not exist or is inconsequential. The remainder are pretty strongly in favor, but I haven’t yet seen any explanation of how this is supposed to work. So, as usual the PA blog will have to take the lead.

    I’m in agreement with your explanation of how scope height changes your zero distance, but I think there is confusion resulting from a number of different processes that are being merged together. If I have a rifle, scope and mount that I zero at 25 yards then switch out the mount for a higher one, keeping everything else the same, then undoubtedly, the zero will change exactly as you described it.

    But once I get a 25 yard zero with my high mount, will the change of impact from 25 yards to 100 yards be different from the configuration with a low mount? I don’t see how. The bullet and rifle don’t know how high the mount is on the rifle.

    Now in changing the zero from 25 yards to 100 yards, will the adjustment be different for the high mount compared to the low mount? That is, will there be a different number of elevation clicks? That is what I meant about a different click value depending on the mount. I think at some level, yes. But the question for both this and the switch between low and high mounts is how significant is this effect. My own guess is that when switching mounts, the effect is probably perceptible, but the difference in click value between the low and high mount configurations is probably not.

    The right triangle geometry behind this situation is simple although the questions we are asking about it are not. I came up with the following relationship between click rate and scope height over bore.

    du/dx = [(sqr rt[(r^2 – y^2)/x^2)] + 1]/r(sqr rt[1 – (x/r)^2]


    du/dx = the rate of angular change of the scope per unit distance to target (click value)

    r = distance of the scope to the target

    x = horizontal distance to target

    y = scope height over bore

    I’ll check this with blog reader Victor and one other knowledgeable person, but I believe I’m right. I’m not going to plug numbers which is tedious, but two things stand out. The scope height over bore becomes insignificant the further out you go, so any effect is confined to near distance. The second point is that while scope height over bore has some relation to click value, it is immensely complicated and connected with a lot of other things. This suggests to me that the only reason that we don’t see extremely chaotic behavior in adjusting scopes at different heights is that the effects must be so small that we don’t notice them. Anyway, I’ll check and follow up.

    Reb, I can’t make it to the Texas show I’m afraid, but I’ll look forward to the report. If you visit, take a pic with B.B. and get it posted. 🙂


      • Reb,

        Really? Why would you say that? Lessin’ maybe you got 3 heads and 6 arms or something? If so,..think of it,….you could shoot 3 rifles at once! Maybe a demo? Really though,…go if you can. I bet the ‘Ol B.B. would be glad to see you and give you the “Grand Tour”.


        • I’ve been told I can be a bad influence-I smoke and drink and sometimes use harsher language than is allowed here on the blog but I’m sure I’ll see him there and introduce myself and take up some of his time.

            • I’m gonna be wiped out after the show! I’ll probably have to take quite a few breaks. I’m only good for about 100yds at a time even with my cane. I’ll try not to get on his nerves too bad.

            • Okay, folks, remember this tip if you ever meet the Queen of England. The word is that after a lifetime of socializing, she is a master of small talk, but do not question her deeply about any subject, like airguns, as she has not had time to study anything very deeply. That sounds like the exact opposite of B.B.

              Also, do not try to engage the Queen’s husband, the Prince Consort Philip, in conversation as he is an odd character with only one purpose in life.


          • Reb
            Bad influence? You just can’t imagine some of the get together we use to have out on the farm.

            I think you would have no problem fitting in where I come from.

            I heard Chris and Buldawg talking the other day about long hair. Up to about 4 years ago I had my hair halfway down my back. I have always been a long hair country boy. Now it’s a little longer than shoulder length.

              • Reb
                Just like anything you got to take care of it.

                I don’t know how many times I wore my hair up under my hat for a certain occasion.

                But for some reason before the night was through the hat got lost. All I can remember is a lot of surprised faces when that happened. And that’s just fine with me.

                  • Chris USA
                    For some reason I always have tryed to be a little different than what people thought I should be.

                    What fun is that if I have to go around with a straight face all day and follow the dotted line.

                    Just ain’t gonna happen and never will.

    • I never thought to put it into a specific math equation. I just know two things.

      One. I had a 3x9x40 on a side mount and experienced the same issue, plus having to come up with a way to get a good cheek weld.

      Two. I guessed your one hundred was high based on using a side mount and your 25 yard zero being dead on. You confirmed.

      The 7.62×39 and 7.92×33 are both roughly 25-200 yard rounds based on a 2″ height over bore.

      • Yes, you were right that I was high at 100. And I’m agreement generally with how you say a high mount will change the point of impact. But how do you know that the rise in elevation between 25 and 100 was due to the scope height and not the bullet trajectory?


    • Matt61
      I know you and Sam have been talking back and forth about this.

      I don’t know if I can explain this right. But me and Chris USA I believe had this conversation a while back about scope height.

      You have to think àbout the trajectory of the projectile in relation to the scope height and zeroing in distance.

      If the scope is placed straight and level from the front of the scope to the back when you look through it. Then your gun barrel will have to be angled up or down differently for the low or higher mounted scope at a a given distance.

      That’s how the holdover and under comes into play. The Chairgun Pro balistic caculater will show how scope height and zero distances will help a certain ballistic coefficient projectile stay in a certain area of the scope at broadest range possible. In other words closer to reticle center. That way you plot out your scopes vision I guess I can say to the guns projectile performance.

      But I think you already know this so I might not be explaining what your trying to get at.

        • Reb
          Go to the Hawke website.

          They have free downloads of the program.

          They have apps available for phones. I have it on my phone.

          All you got to do is get it and just start plugging numbers in from how you have one of your guns set up now with a scope on it. It has a drop down for type of pellet, then you punch in what velocity your gun shoots that pellet at. Then you punch in scope height and zero in distance like say 30 yards. You can also punch in how big a kill zone you want.

          All you do then is hit the button and it will give a graph of your pellet trajectory. You can even get a scope veiw that shows hold overs and unders at a given distance.

          Then if you want to see how scope hieght makes a difference on the graph of the trajectory and the scope veiw. You just input a different distance and it shows how the projectile trajectory changes in relation to the scope veiw.

          It’s not that bad once you start messing with it.

          What I like about Chairgun is that it’s air gun related. Although they do have the .17 hmr as one of the projectiles in the program. I like the program. But remember its just a estimating tool. It’s not like hard data like when you shoot and collect data. You know for when you dope your scope.

          • I doubt I have room on this phone for it. I think I’ve still got it on the computer which was gonna be set up today but my assistant’s mother went into the hospital last night and she had no-one to watch the baby

                • Matt61
                  I have both the Chairgun pro and the Hawke BRC on my PC and Iphone with no issues or fear of viruses and as long as you have a antivirus software installed on your PC, which if you don’t then you are way more at risk searching on the internet than downloading the Hawke programs.

                  So go to Hawke.com and download them and you will be amazed at the info they provides as I use it to calculate my holdovers for FT shooting and how to tune the gun so that it shoots with the longest range of zero hold and only two hold over mil dots to remember. It also has a app for phones that will allow you to have a set zero distances and then say your gun is zeroed at 50 yards and you want to adjust the elevation for a 100 yard zero hold if you have inputted all the info on the gun, scope and pellet it will tell you how many clicks elevation to add in to have a zero hold at 100 yards.

                  Its well worth it and its all free.


          • GF1

            Thanks for the info on ChairGun Pro. I downloaded it no problem and stayed up playing with it till 2:30 am. The visual aspect is great I have learned a lot from it that is obvious once you play with the numbers a little. It looks like with the setup I have on my M-Rod I can sight in at about 25 yds and the pellet will just rise to touch my sight line and then fall giving one zero location. Makes for no hold under. I am going to see if this works out in the real world. Thanks again.

            • Benji
              No problem. Chairgun will give you ideas to start with but you still have to go out and shoot to see what the real world results are as you say.

              Chairgun is just a estimating tool. And definitely fun to plug numbers in and see what happens.

              Did you punch in your kill zone? I usually use 1″. Then I try to change my zero in distance to try to keep the pellet trajectory in that area as much of the pellets flight as possible. When you get it right you will not have to put much hold over or under at the 60 and in distances.

              Let me know your results when you get out there and shoot. And remember magnification changes things also.

              • Yep my squirrels are scrawny I use 1/2 inch for the kill zone. Around the house I don’t shoot more than 40 yds so I will use the program to optimize my site distance for 15 to 40 yds. Speaking of magnification I used to shoot a lot, up to 1,500 rounds per day for ground squirrel control in alfalfa fields with 22 rimfire up to 250 yards (that was stretching it). I would get good at my holdover until I changed my magnification and then all would go out the window. I ended up using 6 power for all shots as my close shots were measured in a few feet. I think with the mil dot reticle the angle between the dots does not change with magnification not sure.

                  • yep the dots do change with magnification no wonder I hated changing magnification. Thanks I am new to mill dot scopes. No wonder changing magnification messed me up so much. I learned something very valuable, thanks. Next I need to see if changing the adjustable objective makes a difference other than minimizing the parallax. Again I don’t think so we will see. That has a pellet gun shop here said it did. Quick answer, I put my utg 2-16 in a vice and checked against a background, The AO did not seem to change the POI or the mill dot angle. That would drive me crazy.

                    • Benji
                      Again shoot and see what parallax does if you change it when shooting at a given distance.

                      Remember the pellets flight has to be factored in.

                      You can’t go by just changing parallax while looking at a object. You have to shoot so you see what it does when the pellet impacts.

                    • GF1
                      We are getting so far down on the reply list I have to go back up. That is what I tested I changed the objective focus shot at same target, made it hard to see but I could detect no change in poi at 34yds probably not the best distance but all I have in the back yard. No change. Did the same for magnification, No change. My groups are between .5 and .75 at 34 yds so maybe not accurate enough to tell. I went by the group centers. I used 5 shot groups as I use a pump to refill. If I did not make sure my eye was centered in the scope view the POI changed significantly when I was out of focus. So you need to be sure your cheek weld and scope are lined up or make sure you have as much parallax as possible removed by your focus. I suggest both. But like I say my guns are not shooting in the same hole!!!!

                  • GF1
                    I was pretty sure that scopes are designed so that the parallax AO and magnification changes do not shift the reticle. That said obviously all scopes are not equal and no scope is perfect. I checked my utg 2×16 and leupold 3-9 my POI did not change as long as I kept my eye centered in the scope. At least for the accuracy of my pellet guns and the accuracy of me. So the good news my scopes are better than I am. Can’t say the same for any of my pellet guns. Fun making them better though.

                    • Benji
                      The parallax doesn’t cause the reticle to shift.

                      What I was getting at is see what happens if you change your focus at a given distance and then shoot. Change back to your original focus and shoot.

                      I would like to know if it changes the pellets POI.

              • GF1
                I spent some time today, wasted some but finally have some numbers to share. My plan was to sight in at 24 yards the distance that chairgun showed as a single near and far sight point for my M-Rod. I put stakes in the ground every 5 yards out to 40 yards. I don’t have a safe backstop past that. Any way my first set of data made no sense. I used a spread sheet to plot the data against ChairGun. I finally checked a couple of shots at 24 yds; guess I got lost on the way to the 5th stake. I was not sited in at 24 yds. At least the data and plot showed that I did not have a ballistic set of data. I started the second set of data with my gage at 2400 psi which is about in the center of my psi range for the best shot grouping, I should have pumped it up a little but was lazy. I ended at 1800 psi which is a little low 2000 is where I should have stopped when shooting for elevation. Oh I do not have a chronograph (maybe for Christmas) so I had to make an educated guess. I had the 10 for 10 at PA so I knew my gun shot light 11.8 grain pellets average of 885 fps from 3000 psi. I figure with the CP cardboard box pellets I am around 850 fps, they are giving me my best groups now. My back yard slopes up from the back porch so I started shooting about 20 degrees down slope at 5 yards to about 2 degrees upslope at 40 yards. At less than 10 yards I don’t think gravity has much effect anyway and the rest of the distances are close to level. I had about 5 mph wind from right to left. I only measured the vertical distance from zero anyway. I checked my 5 yd offset against my scope height and they agreed pretty well. I did not have a easy way to get a good measurement even with calipers but they matched ok. Any way here is the data.

                Profile GA
                MV 850 (Ft/s)
                ZR 24 (Yard)
                BC 0.019
                SH 1.7 (Inch)
                AmbT 20 (deg C)
                AmbP 29.95 (“Hg)
                WindS 2 (mph)
                WindA 45 (deg)
                Incline -3 (deg)

                Ballistics Table Measured

                Range POI POI
                (Yard) (In) (In)

                0 -1.70 -1.70
                5 -1.08 -1.00
                10 -0.60 -0.55
                15 -0.25 -0.34
                20 -0.05 -0.18
                25 0.00 -0.04
                30 -0.12 -0.14
                35 -0.42 -0.58
                40 -0.91 -1.24

                • I wondered where this reply went it took off while I was typing I had to start over guess you get two versions of same story. The first reply could be deleted although it does have some additional info

              • GF1

                I finally had some time to try some real numbers against ChairGun Pro, I drove stakes in the ground at 5 yard increments out to 40 yards my longest safe backstop range. The 25 yard stake was set at 24 yards for this test and to sight in. I set up chairgun with the following data:

                Profile GA
                MV 850 (Ft/s)
                ZR 24 (Yard)
                BC 0.019
                SH 1.7 (Inch)
                AmbT 20 (deg C)
                AmbP 29.95 (“Hg)
                WindS 2 (mph)
                WindA 45 (deg)
                Incline -3 (deg)

                I do not have a chronograph (maybe for Christmas) so I had to do some estimating. I had the 10 for 10 done at PA so I knew what My M-Rod did when new with a light pellet 11.8 grains. It was about 885 fps from a 3000 psi fill. So I figure I am about 850 fps with CP 14.3 grain cardboard box. These are now my best grouping pellets. My first test came out haywire. At least the data told me I did something wrong. I plotted the data in excel and saw my trajectory was not possible without wings. I figured I made a mistake and tied a shot at 10 yds no change; tried at 24 and found I had not sited in at 24 yards guess I cannot count 5 stakes. So I started over. The wind came up but I was only woried about the vertical distances anyway hopefully minimal up or downdrafts. I set my scope on 9 power and had no trouble with focus at 5 yards. Below is the new set of data:

                Table Measured

                Range POI POI
                (Yard) (In) (In)

                0 -1.70 -1.70
                5 -1.08 -1.00
                10 -0.60 -0.55
                15 -0.25 -0.34
                20 -0.05 -0.18
                25 0.00 -0.04
                30 -0.12 -0.14
                35 -0.42 -0.58
                40 -0.91 -1.24

                By the time I got sighted in and started on the second set of data I was at 2600 psi right where my gun is most accurate. So I started the test. The above measured data matched the
                calculated very well. I got down to 1750 psi by the time I got to the end of the test so I think that is why the 40 yd shot is dropping so much. I shot two shot groups as long as they felt good and were touching. I am now confident in my gun and that if something looked wrong I would be able to go back and fill in the data for a particular distance the data is very repeatable. I shot a five shot group at 40 yards because my gun is finally grouping very good my vertical spread was 0.32 inches very good for me even though my pressure is getting low.

                It shows that with chairpro you can get a good idea on how to set up your gun for particular sets of distances and then refine with real data. I am sure I could go back and adjust the input data in ChairGun Pro to better match my data, especially the muzzle velocity If I knew what it was. I can’t resist I just checked; 800 fps (my first guess) gives -1.20 inches at 40 yards.

                • Benji
                  That’s actually pretty good data. The 20 yard distance you have a little bit of spread

                  But over all it looks like your staying pretty close to scope zero at those distances if I’m understanding right your data right.

                  And I guess you chose 9 power because its the highest magnification your scope has? Just wondering why 9 power.

                  Now it makes me wonder what your POI verses POA would be out past 40 yards. But it looks like you got a good set up to me.

                  • GF1
                    Not sure the 15 and 20 yard shots don’t look real good on the plot either but the two shot group was within less than 0.05 inch diff. If I get a Chronograph someday I will go where I can shoot past 40 yards and try some more tests. Velocity is too important past 40 yards. Yea and thanks my gun is finally starting to get good groups at least for me, I am now close to sub dime groups at 40 yards that is my goal for now. I am also starting to think that it takes a while for a pellet gun to settle down after changing pellets even though it makes no sense to me.

                    • Benji
                      I believe 100% that you should try to shoot at least 100 of the same pellets through a gun before changing to a different pellet.

                      And I usually put a target out at every 10 yards from 10-50 yards. I think 5 yard intervals is to close a distance. But you definitely got the right idea.

                      Next take those targets and label them for the distance their at after you at them. Then put them on a table side by side. Tape them together if you want. Then circle the group you shoot on each paper. Then start at 10 yards and play connect the dots on up to the 50 yard target.

                      Now what you have in front of you is your pellets flight it took. The trajectory basically.

                      Try it and see what you think and let me know what you think.

        • Reb,

          Chairgun does work well. Although it’s been awhile, it’s pretty easy to use and quite customizable,…is that a word? On a phone though, I don’t know. Like GF1 said,…nothing beats going out and collecting actual data. A few on here mentioned stuff I did not even figure out yet. Chris

      • Yes, just plugged the parameters into chairgun. Going from a 2″ HOB to 3.5″ pushes near zero from around 25 yards to around 45 yards for the same 200 yard far zero.

      • Yes, I remember that conversation. I don’t think we disagree. Probably the ballistic calculator can actually solve that equation that I wrote or something like it.


        • Sam
          Chairgun pro is a air gun specific balistic caculater. Although it has the .17 hmr listed. It can stretch out to some longer distances. But I still don’t think it would represent anything close to the balistic of those centerfire rounds you and Matt61 have been talking about.

          How are you coming up with a foot high at 100 yards? That would also depend on the velocity, weight and coefficient of drag on that bullet. So I’m thinking that two different center fire rounds you were talking about would fly different. They could both be a foot high at a 100 yards.

          But the only way to truly test that would be to put you out a big enough piece of paper at a 100 yards and shoot both rounds and see what happens. Then change the zero in distance and shoot both rounds again.

          Hopefully were you shoot at you can see what happens out at the 200 plus yard distance also.

          When were talking air guns that first and second zero could be in at a lot closer distance than the centerfire rounds because of the balistic diffrences of the projectiles (pellets verses bullets).

            • Plug in a standard BC of .28 for the round and a MV of 2350. Plug in HOB of 2″.

              Those are pretty standard ballpark figures for all the 120-125 grain 7.62×39 rounds.

              Plug in 200 yard for zero.

              Change one variable (HOB). From 2″ to 3.5″.

          • Yes. I have put steel targets waaay out there.

            7.62×39 , 7.92×33 will not fire out of the same rifle. My point was more that the intetmediate rounds with .30ish diameter but less case capacity do well with a 25-200 zero. As does 30-30.

            But for combat purposes where a slightly greater vertical dispersion is allowed the 5.56 and 5.45×39 get along well with a 25-300 zero.

        • Good, I was going to ask what happened in Chairgun when you changed the scope height. All agreed that when you change your scope height, you will need to establish a new zero. But at the range, I got my zero at 25 yards. So, then how do you use Chairgun? Will it tell you what adjustment to make to go from 25 yards to 100 yards? If so, is there a way to check if that adjustment would be different for a lower scope height? That’s what I was getting at with the click value business.


          • Matt61
            I will have to see. But I don’t think it gives click values between heights of the scope for the fact that the scope is mounted and your wanting that data for that scope set up. It might give click values for a scope set up for different ranges so you can do clicks on your scope instead of hold overs. I do know that you can do a print out of the scope veiw of the reticle with the yards next to the correct mildot if you got the laptop or desktop program. The phone version you can pull it up and have it by you to reference when your shooting.

            And yes pellets not centerfire rounds. Although it does list balistics for the .17 hmr.

            You know you can search online and find balistic caculaters for center fire guns. But I don’t think none of them will give clicks between two set up heights either.

            • That is my problem. I don’t have that many different scope heights to choose from, and I can generally get a zero at a close distance. The critical question for me is how to adjust to stay zeroed at a further distance. Once you get the zero close up, it’s my suspicion that the scope height will not affect how much you change your elevation to a farther distance. But that remains to be established.

              Speaking of calculators, here’s what I found.


              This confirms my guess that by zeroing an inch low at 25 yards, I should be dead on at 100 yards. By way of experiment, I will give this a try next time. If it works, it seems reasonable to suppose that elevation is due mostly to ballistics and the angle of inclination of the gun (point of aim) and not to other features of the gun.

              I wonder if ballistic calculators are more useful for airguns than firearms. The curve in the trajectory is much more pronounced for common shooting distances.


            • Here’s the answer to my question from an internet source! These are instructions on elevation changes with the 7.62X39mm cartridge for various distances and for different heights of the scope over the bore. The person claims to have obtained this from a ballistics calculator.

              Edit: sorry thats with 3 inches above the bore.
              If you zero at 50 yards it might look like this
              50 yard zero:
              25 yard: 1″ low
              50: dead on
              100: 1″ high
              200: 2″ low
              250: 7″ low
              300: 14″ low

              For 2 inches above the bore
              50 yard zero:
              25 yard: .8 low
              50: dead on
              100: .2 high
              200: 5.9″ low
              250: 12.7″ low
              300: 22.4″ low

              This would seem to indicate that for a scope height difference of an inch, which is pretty significant, the difference in elevation changes that you make from one distance to another are not that great. And this assumes that you are aiming low and high appropriately relative to your shooting distance. If your point of aim is different, your trajectory could change radically. Of course what you believe from the internet is your own choice. 🙂


              • Matt61
                I will just respond here.

                I’m not that up on the computer stuff so I guess you could get a virus from downloading the Chairgun program. But maybe not. I don’t know.

                And I see you found your answer to scope hieght and the changes it makes.

                But the thing that comes to mind is why are you worried about the second zero? That’s what hold over and under does for you along with adjusting clicks for windage and elevation.

                I think in actual shooting that the first and second zero will never be true to each other. The wind and other things will make it hard for them to work out like the piece of paper says. Or the program.

                That’s why you hear of people dopeing their scope. That way they have proven data for a particular shot that was taken.

                It might not be the exact same conditions for the shot your taking but it will get you closer than a program or guessing.

                Maybe I’m looking deeper than what your worried about. And really it still comes down to shooting for true results.

                • That’s a good question about the second zero. I’m not worried about it at all. I was myself wondering why that kept coming up. My problem is very real world. To get your gun sighted, you will almost certainly shoot at the shortest distance possible to get on paper. Once you’re there, you then have to figure out how to adjust to zero at your shooting distance further out. Rarely if ever will this coincide with the second zero. To get to your shooting distance, you will either need to use holdover or make sighting adjustments, which are versions of the same thing. My problem is figuring out how adjustment. I’ve never had that problem before because I’ve probably never dealt with a centerfire cartridge with the same trajectory as a 7.62X39mm.

                  This is also why I was less concerned about scope height. That seems to be most important when you are switching between mounts. But I only had one and had got on paper at 25 yards. So, from there it was finding the elevation which seems to depend more on the aimpoint of my zero than anything else.


                  • You may rarely Reach out to a rifles second zero. But your second zero with your HOB determines your first zero, not the other way around.

                    The rifle is set up to maximize its point blank zero first.

                    Put another way, next time you are at the range, ask a former marine to show you.

                    • Sam
                      That’s the whole point. Why worry about the second zero.

                      If I make a shot at a bird with a air gun at 50 yards I’m not in no way concerned with my second zero. I could care less what the second zero is.

                      If I shoot at a bird with a air gun at 100 yards I either put in the right amount of clicks or use my hold over.

                      Same if I’m using a centerfire round on let’s say a ground hog. At 70 yards I use my zero and if I shoot out at 200 yards I use clicks or hold over.

                      If a balistic caculater tells me that my second zero falls at a given distance that’s fine. But I only worry about what distance my first zero is at. The second zero is along for the ride so to speak.

            • Gunfun1
              Yes it will if you set up two different files with the different set of scope heights and all other data in to it. You will have to switch from one file to the other but as long as you create different files with the different info in each file on your phone it will show you the differences when you switch from one file to the other and turn the phone sideways.


          • Matt61
            If you download Chairgun pro into your phone and input all the data as Sam said for the 7.62 x39 rounds using your 25 yards zero distance and then turn your phone sideways it brings up a chart that gives you click values , MOA, MIL and inch values for distances out to 500 yards for POI and drift values so yes if you zero at 25 yards and have inputted all the correct data for the gun and bullet you are shooting it will give you how many click to adjust the scope to hit 100 yards or 200 yards with a zero hold and can calculate wind drift as well and the hold for that if you put the wind speed and direction in as well.


            • Buldawg
              Nevertheless treid entering the data from a centerfire projectile into Chairgun.

              But you would have to know the coefficient of drag of that bullet for the program to work out right.

              That’s the thing about Chairgun. It’s got data on file for different brand pellets.

              But if you know all the data from other rounds than yep it will still caculaters.

              • Gunfun1
                You are correct in you need to know the BC of the projectile you are using but Sam gave the BC for the most common 7.62 x39 rounds used above so mat61 just needs to plug in that and the rest of the numbers and he would have a wealth of info on hand when he goes to the range to sight his guns.


    • Matt

      I will try to give a simple explanation. Bullet trajectories are parabolic curves (not circular) they change the rate of curve with distance. A straight line (site line) will normally cross the parabolic bullet path twice. If you have a French curve you can draw a line that starts horizontal and drops lower faster (bullet slows). Draw two lines from different heights above the beginning of your first line that cross the curved at your site distance. This will be exaggerated but you will see it will affect the over and under height verses distances. Not as simple as I hoped.

      • Yes, I understand your construction. That is what I was trying to calculate. But I think the situation is a little different. Since the distance is inside of 100 yards, I don’t believe that the far zero comes into play. It’s a matter of adjusting the near zero between 25 and 100 yards. Yes, in principle the different scope heights will have some effect. Just what the effect is and how significant is the question, and I think it really needs to be quantified.

        I’m certainly not going to run numbers by hand, so maybe it is time to head to the Chairgun calculator.


        • Matt61
          Also see on Chairgun what happens to the trajectory plot when you keep scope height the same but change your first zero and compare to how it affects the second zero.

          Then change scope height and then try different first zero distances and see what happens to your second zero.

          If it wasn’t for reading the blog throughout the day. I could keep myself well occupied with Chairgun. I like punching in different numbers and see how affects things. Try changing vocity in the program and see how things change. Pretty cool stuff if you ask me.

        • Matt61

          If I remember correctly my M-Rod sighted at10 yards shoots 3/8 lnch high at 20 and a tad low at 30 yards. Generally you want your site line to closely match the the trajectory path at the distances your shooting. Say all your shots would always be between 75 and 100 yards and you try and match the slope of your trajectory out there your scope height would be astronomical, well not really but maybe a few feet. So IMO unless you know your shot distance will always be at some set known mid range distances lower mounts are better. I don’t like shooting under at close range. This is just theory, there are so many variables that the trajectory programs mentioned above will be close but not perfect. In any case once this scope height was set up any changes would negate the benefit; different tin of pellets wear on the gun etc etc.

          • my memory was not so good I checked the targets and had resighted at 20 yards. The chairgun pro showed my numbers did not work so I checked my old targets. There is a distance fairly short with a pellet rifle (about 25 yards for my rifle that gives a single site distance on the ballistic trajectory. If you site closer than that it will be your first zero distance and further will be your second zero distance on the ballistic curve.

        • Matt61
          Even shooting air guns there is a place in the pellets flight that intersects at your first zero. Then rises in the arch of the flight above your first zero. As the pellet looses velocity it starts dropping and will intersect at a second zero point wich is the same as the first sightin distance zero.

          It’s then scope hieght if all other numbers stay the same that will change how that scope sees the pellet fly.

          • Matt61
            I should say that’s a example. Because there can be a time when there isn’t a second zero with a air gun.

            If you have your scope zeroed at let’s say 70 yards for some reason. If the pellets trajectory does the majority of its rise before 70 yards and starts falling at say 50 yards. Then that pellet will only intersect its first zero only one time at 70 yards. They pellet will be out of momentum and hit the ground.

            So zeroing in of the gun at different distances does change first and second zero points. As well as scope height and the other factors that have to do with the pellets flight.

            • I understand first and second zeroes to be the points of intersection that a bullet trajectory makes with a straight line to the target. The first zero is the intersection on the way up, and the second zero is the intersection on the way up. If the pellet in your example is falling when it hits 70 yards there must have been a first zero on the way up, even if the shooter is not making use of it.

              Similarly, I expect that for firearms, the far zero is rarely used, and most practical shooting takes place with the near zero.


              • Matt61
                Yep I don’t think that the 2nd zero is used often either because that is most of the time at the end of the projectiles trajectory.

                But something you said above makes me think you did a typo. You said first zero is on the way up and I agree with that. Then you said the second zero intersects on the way up. Did you mean that the second zero intersects on the way down?

                And I see what you mean about the 70 yard zero. Yes there would still be a first zero now that I think about it. The pellet should rise above the reticle center at some point because the barrel is lower than the scope.

                I’m just picturing this in my head. I ain’t useing the program but I’m thinking if we zeroed at 70 yards that the first zero would be in closer to the muzzle of the gun when the pellet leaves the barrel.

                • Gunfun1 and Matt61
                  I know this for a fact in that my FT 177 marauder is sighted per the chairgun program with the scope height, pellet used and velocity shooting and using the far zero as my sight in zero allows me to shoot at a 1/2 inch kill zone with only three holds being from 20 to 40 yards is dead on zero then 41 to 55 yards is 1 mil dot under zero and 10 to 19 yards is 2 mil dots under zero and I hit my targets with better than 50% accuracy taking into account me being short winded and elevated heart rate from walking up and down the hills on our FT range.

                  So I cannot say its 100% accurate but the way I used it to sight my marauder in works quite well for me and keeps me from having to remember more than three sighting holds for 10 to 55 yards with a zero hold, a 1 mil dot under hold and a 2 mil dot under hold depending on the yardage the target I am shooting at is from my shooting position.


                  • Buldawg
                    I just don’t like to use that much hold over or under.

                    I like to zero my gun at the correct distance so I only need a half mildot over or half mildot under for different distances I shoot at between 10 and 60 yards at 6 magnification.

                    I don’t like if I have to put over 2 mildot of hold in at those closer distances.

                    But if the way you got yours set up and it works for you then great.

                    • Guynfun1
                      I know you shoot at 6 power and sight for the middle distances so you only have minimum hold over and unders but I cannot see well enough at that low of a power to hit the kill zones out at 40 plus yards so I sight at the far zero distances and the only have to use hold unders for the entire match and only have the zero and 1 mil dot and 2 mil dot hold to use for the whole match and it makes it easier for me to use that method.

                      If I could see better at the lower power I may use your method but I cannot so I use what works for me and is easier to only have to remember the three holds.


    • Okay, how about this. Unless you have your ballistic calculator along–even if you do–perhaps the most important factor among the ones listed in zeroing your gun is where you choose your point of aim (if zeroing at a short distance for a longer one). The most surprising fact for me is the following. The ballistic tables show the 7.62X39mm round rising about 1 inch in 100 yards. So, if I zeroed about 1 inch low at 25 yards, the round should be roughly centered at 100 yards. (I did this on an earlier occasion and that is what happened.) That one inch of elevation on the 25 yard target is equivalent to 4 MOA. With the same gun, if I zeroed dead center at 25 yards, 4 MOA will put me four inches high at 100 yard which seems to be about what happened last time. Significantly different trajectories with different sighting aimpoints for the same gun. This is probably exaggerated with the blooping trajectory of the 7.62X39mm cartridge but is probably a general principle.

      The fact is that all of these different factors we’ve discussed–how the scope tube is aligned for elevation, the scope height over bore, and where you are aiming to zero your gun–are all versions of the same thing which is the angle the bore makes with the horizontal. And in looking for the most important factor, it makes sense to look for the biggest deviation from horizontal which would be where you are aiming.

      The big lesson for me is to aim at your sighting target in a way that is most appropriate for the whatever distance you want to shoot at. This is common wisdom among hunters that I forgot since I was so enamored of my pinwheel target at 25 yards. Also, it’s probably fair to say that for sighting in shorter than your shooting distance, you want to aim low because your errors will be much less than centered or high.


        • I was thinking of how hunters might zero at 75 yards. If that’s their near zero they would know to shoot low at targets less than 75 yards and high for anything over that. With hunting calibers, it seems like it would be easier to do that with a near zero than a far zero.


    • Okay, I’m going to come clean. The mathematical expression I posted earlier is utterly and completely wrong. The correct answer is much simpler.

      du/dx = -1/y


      du/dx = rate of angular change of the scope per unit distance to the target (value of each elevation click)

      y = scope height above the bore

      It is very intuitive. As your scope gets higher above the bore, the rate of change gets less negative which is to say more positive. The rate increases. In other words, with a higher scope height, each click moves you further. However, the data table I copied elsewhere shows that the difference in click value between different scope heights is very small. So, lessons learned from all this are:

      -If you change your scope height, you will definitely need to re-zero.

      -Once you’ve rezeroed with the new scope height, your elevation adjustment in moving between distances will not differ that much from before.

      -You had better be careful of your aimpoint when zeroing at any distance other than the desired shooting distance. If you are short of your near zero, aim low. If you are short of your far zero, aim high.

      Now for the final piece of the puzzle. My elevation in going from 25 to 100 yards was still way more than the calculations predict. I should have been 4 inches high and I was about double that. The only thing I can think of is that with the side rail on the AK, perhaps my mount was not pushed all the way forward. So, the question now is: How does moving your scope backwards along the barrel axis change your aimpoint? I say that it will move your aimpoint up. That would help explain my result. Any opinions about this?


  15. All,

    A bit of an update,….I have noticed no change in acurracy in going from 12fpe tune to the HO kit on the TX. The “winners” seem to be the JSB’s in 15.89 and 18.13. Will do a couple of hundred of each to pin it down more. The AA 13.43 and 16.0 were close behind. (in .22 @ 25yds.) Quite the spread on weight’s huh?

    The (one) surprise in the bunch was the RWS 14.5 which grouped around 20mm. with the 12fpe kit and 60~70mm with the stock and HO kit.


    • Chris USA
      But here’s the question. How about now give us some data to compare when the gun was stock verses your tune kits.

      That’s what I want to know is if the kits helped with accuracy over stock out of the box performance.

      I know the answer to that question for my Tx. Accuracy before and after my tune.

      • GF1,

        I spent a couple of hours going over the groups and even looking at the targets. I save them all in notebooks. I even looked at sub-groups to see if there was a pellet that “wanted” to be good, despite me maybe having a “bad” day.

        The “qualifier”, the one,…would be that it has been a couple of months since the HO tune. One would hope,…that I have got better since then. Mine is .22 and yours is .177. I don’t know. I am just reporting what I did, shot and kept (good) records on. That’s all I can say.


          • GF1,

            19mm. with AA 13.43 before 12fpe (stock),….13mm. with JSB 18.13 with 12fpe tune (1x),….and 15mm with AA 13.43 with HO tune. {Averages} with all (10pellets) on HO tune, showed the JSB 15.89 and 18.13 best. (18mm. and 18mm). All 10 shot groups, all 25yds.

            I’m not sure what you want. I keep good records and targets, and this is what I got. Just ’cause I got a great group 1x does not mean I can do it over an average.

            And note,…there is only a 6mm. spread regardless of tune. For me being a newbie, that’s pretty good.


            • Chris USA
              Exactly what you just showed.

              I wanted to know if both tune kits improved your guns groups over the stock untouched gun.

              And it looks like that did happen.

              But are you getting better groups now because you can shoot better

              Have you thought about putting the factory spring and components back in your Tx to see if you can shoot better groups with it now since your more use to the gun. That way you would know if you improved or if the kits improved your group’s.

              Do you see what I mean.

              • GF1,

                Short answer,….the HO produces a “little” over stock on fpe,..but,…is (smoother) than stock. So for a 6mm. difference,..I will stick with the HO…..at least for now. As I said,..I want to give the 2 types of JSB’s a couple of hundred run’s one at a time to see if one out does the other.

                After all, my 18mm. avg. @ 25yd. has a long way to go to get to your 25yd. let alone the 50yd.

                ( a tip on airguning for ya’all,….you can get 80% “there” in a year,….the other 20% may take another 5 years). Unless you got a whole lot of time on your hands and/or got a whole lot of natural talent. Me??? Challenged on the first, and still trying to figure out the second. 😉


                  • GF1,

                    The “scoop” on that,……if I ain’t getting 3/4″ on 4 ten shot groups @ 25,….I ain’t waistin’ the lead on 50. I did on my 10 pellet test,…on some. First things first I guess.

                    My 41′ to 25yd. went that way (crap to oh wow). Now the 25yd to 50yd.

                    Funny,….winter and doing 41′ with a new TX,…the 25 yd. was “scarey”. Now the 25 ain’t so bad and the 50….?…..well,…I can hit a can 5/5 over and over at 50.

                    🙂 ,Chris

                    • Chris USA
                      If you keep practicing at 50 yards the closer distances will become easier.

                      Try a 100 shots this weekend at 50 yards no matter what the groups look like on paper.

                      Then come back the next day and shoot at the closer distances. But always keep shooting some 50 yard groups throughout the day.

                      Don’t get hung up on shooting close distances. Stretch it out and your gonna see what I mean if you keep doing it.

  16. GF1,

    As crazy as that sounds, I will try it. 25yds~30yds.,… close?…….some here,…including me,…might differ on that view,…just a weeeee bit. 😉

    Notes made, posted on forehead, will try.

    Really?,….anyone else “down” with this line of thought?

    • I was hitting a 2″ telephone pole insulator 5 for 5 @ 60yds offhand with my 392 on a daily basis. There’s no way I coulda done that practicing @ 10m but after a tin of pellets it was coming along well

      • Reb,

        Not bad!,…..I still have to try the off hand bit. Per GF1’s recommendations, that 50 practice, might,.. just might,…look like a shotgun pattern. Not sure how to sort out 4 ten’s with a target like that….we’ll see…

        Huh?,….you shootin’ at phone poles? 😉 out’a here….Chris

          • Reb,

            When was the last time you saw a glass telephone pole insulator, green/blue glass or clear? You might just be telling on your age a’bit,….just sayin’….. 😉 R.R. tracks are good for the “forgotten” ones,……don’t ask how I know this…..

            • My brother has been an engineer for about 5 years now and has a collection as well as a switching post in his front yard. I wound up with a DERAIL sign in my short career as a conductor.

        • Don’t sweat group sizes justt get better. I also used to have a 10″ steel plate that was 50yds from my bathroom window that sounded a lot like a bell. As long as you’re hitting it you can’t be far off your mark.

          • Reb
            I find a door frame to prop up against real quick. 🙂

            But on the serious side you are right. Shooting free hand takes some work and muscles.

            But after shooting 10 shots standing free hand bench resting is way easy.

              • Reb
                Offhand shooting is hard to do. There is ways to hold the gun to help. And muscles make a difference.

                But muscle stamina is important too. It’s how long your muscles can endure. The more shots that you can maintain the easyier it is to make just one shot.

              • Reb
                That is true. And I think I’m getting lazy. I use to do a lot of free hand shooting.

                I do shoot the HPA converted 1077 out in the back yard free hand at cans placed out there.

                But I do have my shooting stick and fully extended setting by the back door. So I do have it ready for action.

                And your right though. Free hand shooting should be practiced evertime a shooting session happens. That needs to be stayed on top off to keep good at for sure.

        • Mine is still not where I want it but that’s why I keep practicing and keep in mind my limitations.
          Took a nasty spill yesterday on my bike, the heel of my left Palm got ripped open and my left hip is bruised and I frogged my glute. I probably won’t be doing much of anything today but I’ll still get a few in.

            • This one was a freak, the chain completely derailed off the front sprocket and my left foot slipped off.
              I was checking out different technologies for keeping them attached earlier but I’m still concerned about not being able to disconnect in case of emergency.
              The good thing about it is I somehow got my left hand out in time to protect my head.

              • Reb
                Make sure the chain stays on. Then you ain’t got to worry about your foot getting knocked off.

                And there is no way I would but something on the peddles to hold your feet there.

                Is that what you mean? I know they use to have them peddles that had those cups like steel toe shoes that were made into the peddles. That way they held your foot in place put you could still pull your foot out fast if needed.

                • Check out the clipless pedals.
                  You gotta get the shoes to match but they got some with recessed cleats for walking in too.
                  On the slo-mo, I asked and he said it was a program imbedded in the video mode of his Samsung Galaxy Note5. But he said there should be a number of apps you could download.

              • Reb,

                Been meaning to ask,….you got one of those real light ones? I helped my brother move one time years ago and when I went to pick up the bike, I almost fell over it was so light.

                • The last one I bought was am alloy framed 26 with quick release hubs and discover brakes” and it was light but I left it outside and it disappeared.
                  This is one my buddy picked up at Wally’s for my birthday.

    • Chris USA
      Really it works try it. The 50 yard shooting.

      Like I said. Don’t worry about the groups you get. Just concentrate on your hold and follow through as normal. I think you will be surprised at how it turns out in the end.

  17. Chris USA,

    GF1 is absolutely correct. Shoot at 50 yrds. for several groups, using your best form and TRY to get the best groups that you can. It doesn’t matter that you don’t like the resulting group sizes. (Not at THIS point in rime anyway).
    As ling as you do your part with your shooting form, it is nearly guaranteed that at what you’re calling “closer distances” you’ll see tighter groups. Even though you are actually shooting at 25 or 30 now, tell your MIND that ir’s still 50. Go ahead…your brain will know the truth, but your “mind” will still be tightening your concentration and your form as it did when you actually WERE shooting at 50 yrds., even in reallity it’s now back to 25 or 30 yrds again.
    And as your concentration and form are tightened again, you really WILL see that your groups are tightened as well.
    It really is a basic exercise applicable to all forms of shooting-sports, guns, bows; airguns, etc.
    Go ahead and try it a few times…you’ll be happily surprised.


    • Denny,

      Thank you on explaining “How” it works. When doing most things, I like to know the what/how/why. I will try it. I have the extra callenge of my 50yd, being 60ft. into dark woods. I can barely make out a 16oz. RedBull can which has a lot of silver on it. The best I have come up is to put a good (50$) LED flashlight aimed at the target.

      I use 48′ plastic electric fence poles as target holders. Lots of clips for cardboard backers and a steel stake on the bottom. The Hawke scope I have does not have illuminated reticle. The UTG I have, does have the lighted option. The flashlight gets rubber banded to a separate pole. The can is on a 48″ fiberglass rod/driveway marker. Both scopes are 1/2 mil-dots. The lighted reticle makes a HUGE difference. It allows me to see the holdover clearly. On the Hawke, when I pull off the target, (8 1/2″x11″ paper with four 9/16″ dots) and go to the can, the reticle all but dissapears, let alone make out the mil-dots with any clarity.

      Thanks again, it may just be the “push” my 25 and 30yds. needed. Chris

      • Chris USA
        You keep saying your 50 yard target is hard to see.

        I use my Hawke scopes in all kinds off light conditions.

        Matter of fact at my old house my 50 yard target started inside a clearing in the woods with trees over hanging. Lots of shade in the summertime when the leaves are on the trees. I had no problem seeing my targets. Especially if it was white paper. I would even shoot at brown sticks or dryed up leaves on the ground farther up in the dark woods. I had no problem whatsoever seeing the reticle.

        Maybe where I was shooting from made the difference in being able to see the target and reticle. I was always in the shade. Be it in the breezway and with about 3′ of shade in front of me. Or out under a tree. But I would always make sure I have the most shade in front of me.

        And I always made sure if its sunny that the sun was above or behind or even to the left or right of me. Never in front of me.

        And another thing I shoot at 6 power. The lower the magnification you can use the better. It allows for a brighter sight picture. And here’s something for you. I myself at 50 yards can shoot basically the same size groups on 3 power as I can on 12 power. But the target and reticle is much brighter on 3 power.

        So maybe you need to try some different locations to shoot from and experiment with the lower magnifications and see what….well what you can see.

        • GF1,

          In the shade 100% of the time. I keep it on 7, but yes you are right in that lower mag. will give a better/brighter picture. As for location, that is fixed the way the yard and woods is layed out. Maybe you got better eyes? I do not know. The white paper is not too bad. It is what it is. For being new, I guess I want the best picture possible at 50yds. The light helps. The lighted retical helps. But,…that’s just me.

          Let’s face it, people have been hunting “in the dark” for a long time without lighted reticals.

          On the side. I got a drooper mount for the LGU and some Weaver rings. Proper ones. Plus a screw to do the “Yankee Tune” trigger tune that BD76 turned me onto. Hopefully get the .033″ shims out and get the scope dialed back closer to optical/mirror center. Only 40 clicks up off mirror center now.
          But, works good as is.

          Talk later,…Chris

          • Chris USA
            You will have to let me know if that drooper mount gets you on the money. And how the spring works out. And you know I think you missed what I was talking about the other day. Sometimes a heavier trigger pull is needed to tune to a guns shot cycle. But any way let me know if the lighter trigger works out better for you with the LGU. I used the little heavier pull to keep the gun in place. Basically timed out to the shot cycle and shot leaving the barrel.

            I do wear glasses so I guess that’s helping when I shoot.

            • GF1,

              You will be the first to know. I trust your experience and judgement. “Heavier pull to keep gun in place”,…Mmmm,…we will have to talk more on that. For me, the heavier pull is a curse. The TX breaks at 1/4 the pull of the LGU, at least. When going from the TX to the LGU, I am constantly pulling the sight picture for the first few trys.

              The only way I can see it is,.. if,..you are (very) steady at trigger pull/release, then the timing might make more sense. First things first,…I will be trying the 50yd. tommorrow,…then back to the 25 with the TX. The LGU, I will be “playing” with. Chris

              • Chris USA
                I was taught to use my finger tip on the trigger. That’s suppose to keep you from pulling the gun sideways.

                And remember to use follow through on your trigger finger.

                In other words keep pulling on the trigger till you see the pellet hit and the gun has settled and doesn’t move anymore. Then you can release the trigger.

      • GF1,

        Not a problem at all. I’m very glad glad that I was able to give something that Chris can use to more clearly understand how and why YOUR excellent suggestion actually works.
        I’ve learned e few things over the past several decades, and it all came from good “teachers” beginning with a couple of knowledgable and experienced people in the service, and continuing through the years to include my former father-in-law Earl Zoeller (RIP). I’m quite happy to say that my learning is continuing throygh today thanks to BB and the mwmbers of this very blog..
        Again, just glad that I can “give back” a little. 🙂


        • Denny
          The way I grew up is I always practiced at the hard things to do and then the easy things become a peice of cake.

          And yes BB and all the blog members always have some interesting things to say.

          It’s definitely a good place to hang out.

          By the way what kind if air guns do you have?

  18. As of now, just a couple of the replicas…but I’ve only been recently able to devote any time or funds to this interest. For now I have the Umarex Colt SAA, and the Beretta M84fs.My first purchase this time was before I new much of anything at all about any type bb of airguns (before I found this blog or the American Airgunner tv show). It was a 1911a1 copy in airsoft sold by Ignite. Not a bad first-buy but I like and enjoy the SAA and the M84fe much more.
    Presently the only air rifle I have is the Winchester M14 by Daisy. (the M84 and the M14 were both purchased from PA).
    My next one will be a “more serious” type of rifle. Still in the process of narrowing my selection though…thinking along the lines of the Gamo Big Cat or one of the newer NP offerings, probably in .22. Looking for something between 900 and 1200 fps between say 150 and 300 dollars. Fpe isn’t important to me as I’ll only be using it for casual target shooting, not hunting. While I do want to scope it at some point itvwill have iron sights from the factory as a basic “must have” feature.
    Stiill deciding, but all of you folks here are helping me MUCH more than you know.
    All of my previous shooting experience has been with firearms of various tuypes, and archery, (first compound wih sight, then later recurve with only the bow, the string, and the nock-set for the nocking point).
    There really ARE many aspects that the diferent shooting sports. share. That makes easier for me to adapt and adjust to airgunning…easier, not easy 🙂
    But like I said, I am learning alot from the filks here.


    • Should read. “any type of airguns…”
      “…at some point it will have iron…”
      “…of various types…”
      “…from the folks…”

      Sorry for all the typos…looks like I need to shoot more and type less 😉


      • Denny
        Me and my phone struggle with what it thinks I should say all the time.

        And yep those are cool guns.

        And as far as a choice for your serious air gun choice. I hope others have some suggestions. But I have two that I will suggest from what you just said about what your looking for.

        Both are Weihrauch break barrels. The first is the HW30 and if you want a little more power the HW50s. They are both light weight guns that are pretty easy to cock. And the come with sights. And the front sight has interchangeable inserts.

        I had a HW50s a few years back and it was a nice gun. And I have had a lot of different brands and type of air guns. But I’ll just say Im not a fan of the choices you said. I had Gamo’s and their a no for me. But some people like them. And the Benjamin NP’s I have had also but not the new NP 2. I do like Crosman and Benjamin alot. But just not their Nitro piston guns. And again that’s my opinion because there is people that like them.

        You will find that the German spring guns are pretty good quality. And the Air Arms Mrk lll under lever spring guns along with the Walther LGU under levers are excellent spring guns. I would save up the money and by one of them first. Because if your like me you will keep trying to find the best.

        Good luck. Lots of choices out there. 🙂

      • Denny,

        TX200 and Walther LGU are very nice. The wood and engraving on the TX are something you’ll drool over,…though not recommended. Mine are both in .22. Quality of build is top notch on both. Hope your a “righty” as the TX in left will “stretch” the wallet a bit more,….I know. LGU is ambi. stock.

        Gunfun1 can give you the “lowdown”, and I can give it from a new shooter point of view.

  19. Gunfun1
    Yea I agree with you that you need to teach your daughters all the ways that different forms of weapons can be used and how to use them effectively and how to improvise as well since this world is not getting any safer and it may come to the point that the simple weapons will make the difference between living and dying.

    I to have inside and outside covered as far as self defense goes and although I do not have near the property you have without any close neighbors. Our small neighborhood is very close knit so it will be very difficult for any stranger to enter our neighborhood without being seen and most likely photographed and stopped at gun point if they are doing something they should not be doing as I do know my end of the circle is very closely watched as my neighbor at the other end of the circle is retired like me and is home most always as well and carries a derringer in his pocket at all times and was a local police officer and will nor hesitate to confront a would be criminal at gunpoint as well would I.

    We have our own neighborhood watch so it is enter at your own risk and when we are away from home traveling I let the neighbors know so they keep an eye on my house and will stop the criminal at gun point and hold them until police arrive so no worries about much crime here as there is only one way in and out by road and my old neighbor owns all the property around the neighborhood and he dose not take trespassing lightly so if caught on his land they will be detained at gun point as well.


    • Buldawg
      Kind of sounds like how it was when I was growing up.

      It was all farm land and we had about 4 neighbor farmers that were probably 3/4 of a mile away in different directions. Everybody always watched if there was something out of the normal going on. If my dad had the truck out in the feild or likewise with the other farmers that meant something was going on. We never had the trucks out in the feild. It was tractors or farm equipment or us kids on dirt bikes. So we even new with all that ground around when something wrong was happening.

      Back then we had cb’s so the messages got passed along pretty quick. And the truckers did as well. So it was pretty easy to put a call out for the truckers to be on the look out.

      Definitely different times back then. People were ready to step in and help if something wrong was going down.

      • Gunfun1,

        Well, as promised, you (along with all here 😉 ), will be the first to know how the Drooper/Weaver riser did on the LGU. 1st 2 shots went 2 1/8″ right and 2″ high. (that is good since I was currently 40 clicks up and 42 out from mirror center). Final was 10 clicks up and 20 out from mirror center. I’m happy.

        The “Yankee Tune” on the trigger worked out as well. ( Thanks Buldawg76 for the link). It worked close as to what was instructed. A 20mm screw rounded and polished, ended up working perfect.

        Since the 1st. screw had not been messed with from factory settings, I knew that it took 25 turns out for it to fall out. That was the (base data). NOTE: new screw at 27 turns in, eliminated the 2nd stage stop and went straight through to fire mode. In the end, 26 1/4 turns in worked perfect.

        As for the pull weight screw, I had turned it out and kept notes, so I knew that I had backed it out 4 1/2 turns. It took another 1 1/4 turns to remove it, hence it was in 5 3/4 turns from factory. For the test, I went and ran it back in the 4 1/2 + the 1 1/4. In the end after shooting, it was 3 turns out from factory.

        Overall, if the TX is adjusted 100% perfect for me, tha LGU trigger is now 95%. That’s pretty good as the LGU trigger (was) at least 4x heavier/harder.

        As for groups, only 4x ten. My steady was not the best today. I was playing with Windage and Elevation as well as 1st stage trigger adjustments and trigger pull weight,…all at the same shooting session. Off target shots as needed. 4x ten shots at 30 yds……25,25,24 and 21mm. That is average for me.

        Got to go now, cooking up some “Ghost Pepper” hot sauce for someone I know. Any other “chili head’s” out there? 😉 , Chris

          • Gunfun1,

            😉 Yea, I am pretty darn proud of myself. The 1st. stage mods. took longer than expected. It was amazing how little it took on the 1st. stage to change things. That was the whole point of the “Yankee Tune”,…to get that extra 1~2 turns adjustment.

            No 50yds. yet. That was the plan. Oh, by the way,….since I seemed to do “ok” with the LGU with high’s only,….I took the 5/8″ riser (+high’s) off the TX and went back to highs only. The comb to barrel height is darn near identical on both. LGU is drooper mount + med. rings now. Wanted to go low’s on the LGU but glad I did not,….the scope only clears the Weaver rail by just over 1mm with the mediums. Chris

            • Chris USA
              So your scope is closer to the barrel now is what it sounds like your saying.

              And are you going to try some 50 yard shots today?

              It’s real nice outside here in my neck of the woods today. I’m shooting better today then yesterday too. So that’s all good with me.

              Let me know if you get to do the 50 yard shooting today.

        • Chris
          Glad you got the trigger modded and working much better than the factory lawyer trigger so that its not as big of a switch going from the TX to the LGU when shooting and having the big difference in the triggers that they had before.

          Also glad the drooper mount got your scope closer to centered and at a comfortable height to shoot with so you don’t suffer neck strain like you had been in the past.

          So now you got the guns fine tuned and well oiled its all on you now to practice practice practice till you turn blue to get those groups shrunk to 1/2 inch LOL


      • Gunfun1
        Yea I am very happy in my little neighborhood as we all have a good time and throw block parties on holidays at least in my corner of the neighborhood and all get along great.

        It almost like we have all lived and grown up here together so I pity the criminal that try’s to do harm in our territory as we had a incident one time several years back of someone breaking into a house at night and before the burglar knew what had happened he was surrounded by four guys with guns as he exited the house and the look on his face was priceless as he waited for police to arrive.

        It was different years ago for sure but there are still people today that will stand together when needed also they are just farther and fewer to be found.


  20. BB,

    What an excellent column! While I’m not too quallified to comment on details of old-time pneumatic guns in particular, I’m very excited indeed at the idea of seeing regular entries devoted to airgun history in general!

    As I peruse the various forums out there, I definitely see quite a lack of knowledge of older airguns–even as the virtues of some of those seem to be making a bit of a comeback! The current popularity of the venerable HW 35–an early 1950’s design still being manufactured–is a case in point.

    Very much looking forward to future installments!

    • Mike,

      We are trying this because of the positive response to the articles about vintage and antique airguns. They usually get more attention over the long run than do the cut-an-dried test reports I do.

      And this is a lot more fun for me.


  21. BB—, Anyone—Can you identify the air rifle that I found in a junktique shop (we buy junk, we sell antiques) last week? It is MARKED–IMC PIONiER 3 cal 4.5 mm 1978 a2348 This serial # is repeated on the barrel. It has a separate buttstock, held on to a long steel receiver, by a thru-bolt. Two slabs of thin wood are on each side of the receiver,for the forearm. The trigger pull varies between 1 1/2- 1- 3/4 lb., too light, (in my opinion) for a youth rifle. I had to replace the short, fat screw (the factory front sight) with a Williams shorty ramp and a bead front sight. Using Crosman box premiers, and rws 10. it groups in 1 3/4 (10 r) at 10 M. If the factory had put a proper front sight on this rifle, it would compare to the Bronco( with open sights). I am going outside to my plinking range to compare it with my Bronco. Ed

  22. Zimbabweed, I have a recent gift? Air Rifle IMC PIONIER 3 4.5 mm 1983 A0113, Has a Seal of some kind on butt stock with numeral 12 in the center of the seal? Just in the cleaning stage but fired about 50 wadcutters? Front site as you mentioned It is a really neat rifle with blonde forearm and matching butt stock! Be nice to have some info on this rifle also my RWS Diana 24 air rifle? PS to Chris USA? Have you tried “MONK JUICE”? Semper fi!

    • J.Lee,

      Monk Juice?,….ain’t heard of that one. Sirracha with the Rooster on the bootle, Yucatan Sunshine ( a Habenaro blend ) and Tabasco Chipolte,…..try ’em. Chris

      P.S. I went to a shop one time that had at least 250-300 different bottles. All different. Lot’s of “one of” and “mom and pop’s” for sure. Dave’s Insanity brand, ghost sauce, 1 capfull was it,.. in a good size bowl of chili. No problems, but that was my limit.

      • Chris,USA
        Try Firehouse Subs if you want a good selection of hot sauces as they have at least 100 bottles of the stuff on the counter free for the trying but most are out of my league.


        • BD76,

          Thanks for the tip,…however I never go out to eat as I can generally do (much) better here and for a whole lot less, healthier too. Heck,….on a budget,…I ain’t getting all the airgun goodies if I go out and blow it on munchies. ‘Course,..it’s just me and I ain’t hard to please, but I do like good food. 😉 Chris

  23. Chris USA, Monk juice is made by monks at the Monastery! Very STRONG! Uses? In chili etc.,most of the old timers that I shoot and play golf with, poor it in their beer while on the course and hunting! They can’t live without Monk Juice! At their ages 79 to 91 years! They hunt and shoot all types rifles, pistols and bows etc.! They make some great deer jerky and of course it is made with monk juice! Semper fi!

    • J.Lee,

      Thank you. I love it! I have not been sick in 30+ years and I always joke with the guys at work that it’s the hot sauce. Actually, there is pretty good evidence to support that. 79~91,….that’s better than most of us can hope for. I am pretty sure “The Man” has it calculated out to the extent that you work untill ya’ croak. Rrrribit 😉

        • I used to eat a buncha spicy stuff but go my fill of the flaming scoots. One of my buddies recently got a juicer to do his own version of v8 and liqified some jalapenos.
          Just sniffing it made my eyes water.

  24. J-Lee, everyone else–My pioneer air rifle is a Rumanian youth trainer that seems to have been imported a few years ago. There is a lot of info on the internet. Re the horror stories, mine just went head to head with my Diana 22 and my Bronco. It is just as good, and the trigger might be a bit better. Ed

    • I think Buldawg picked one of those up a while back and he liked it too.I been looking at them because of the easy cocking aspect but that’s the first I recall about it having a nice trigger too.

    • Ed
      I have an IMC pioneer rifle as well and mine was not shooting when I got it as the seal had deteriorated and it is now sporting a old dodge pickup truck 7/8 ” rear wheel cylinder piston seal as it means to propel the pellet and shot in the mid 450 fps ranges but the barrel is slightly bent to the right or left as I forget now since I had to drift the rear sight in its dovetail to get it to hit at tem meters.

      It is a nice little youth gun for sure and easy to cock and shoot with a decent trigger for what it is.


  25. Finally found a combination that works for my 1″ resettable target at such close range! I discovered it earlier today while shooting the Regal offhand with 7.9 gr Crosman pointed pellets .

  26. BB–Reb– I just read your 2009 report on the pioneer Rumanian rifles. I guess that I am lucky to get one with a good trigger. I retested the trigger pull and was horrified to find it too hard for me to pull. Then I discovered that the safety was on! Well, now I know that it works. BB, as per your article, the front sight had been clipped or ground down to uselessness. There is a shiny screw in the center of the safety. I wonder if someone adjusted the trigger to the light 1 1/2 lb pull? If they did, why did they leave the front sight in such an unusable condition, and why didn,t they move the rear sight to correct the 4″ right impact?

  27. Had to shut the range down.
    A skunk mustard got close enough to get scared which wouldn’t a killed the deal but it’s after 10:00.
    I mustard fired 50 rounds at my resettable and the Regal’s getting where I can cock it with my left again.

  28. Reb–I just finished searching the web re Romanian pionier air rifles. A few show a shiny screw in the center of the safety, just like mine.The rest of the metal, including the screws, is blued. Why this screw is shiny in some guns, will probably remain a mystery, My gun just got a light trigger by luck, not intent. Ed

  29. For what it’s worth? My IMC PIONIER 3 is right on! It has ease of cocking, has a lot of power for such a small air rifle! I new about the safety and it does have little pull in 1st stage or play and then your right there! Font sight is short but the housing over the sight seems to be ease of accuracy and with punch! Overall length is 37.50 inch’s! I cleaned it up let it set over night with pellgunoil and maybe a little spring work to tone down vibes! But! maybe my go to play plinker? I’ll take it out to my range tomorrow and check a little closer! Semper fi!

Leave a Comment

Buy With Confidence

  • Free Shipping

    Get FREE shipping on qualifying orders! Any order $150+ with a shipping address in the contiguous US will receive the option for free ground shipping on items sold & shipped by Pyramyd AIR during checkout. Certain restrictions apply.

    Free shipping may not be combined with a coupon unless stated otherwise.

    View Shipping Info

  • Shipping Time Frame

    We work hard to get all orders placed by 12 pm EST out the door within 24 hours on weekdays because we know how excited you are to receive your order. Weekends and holiday shipping times will vary.

    During busy holidays, we step our efforts to ship all orders as fast as possible, but you may experience an additional 1-2 day delay before your order ships. This may also happen if you change your order during processing.

    View Shipping Times

  • Shipping Restrictions

    It's important to know that due to state and local laws, there are certain restrictions for various products. It's up to you to research and comply with the laws in your state, county, and city. If you live in a state or city where air guns are treated as firearms you may be able to take advantage of our FFL special program.

    U.S. federal law requires that all airsoft guns are sold with a 1/4-inch blaze orange muzzle or an orange flash hider to avoid the guns being mistaken for firearms.

    View Shipping Restrictions

  • Expert Service and Repair

    Get the most out of your equipment when you work with the expert technicians at Pyramyd AIR. With over 25 years of combined experience, we offer a range of comprehensive in-house services tailored to kickstart your next adventure.

    If you're picking up a new air gun, our team can test and tune the equipment before it leaves the warehouse. We can even set up an optic or other equipment so you can get out shooting without the hassle. For bowhunters, our certified master bow technicians provide services such as assembly, optics zeroing, and full equipment setup, which can maximize the potential of your purchase.

    By leveraging our expertise and precision, we ensure that your equipment is finely tuned to meet your specific needs and get you ready for your outdoor pursuits. So look out for our services when shopping for something new, and let our experts help you get the most from your outdoor adventures.

    View Service Info

  • Warranty Info

    Shop and purchase with confidence knowing that all of our air guns (except airsoft) are protected by a minimum 1-year manufacturer's warranty from the date of purchase unless otherwise noted on the product page.

    A warranty is provided by each manufacturer to ensure that your product is free of defect in both materials and workmanship.

    View Warranty Details

  • Exchanges / Refunds

    Didn't get what you wanted or have a problem? We understand that sometimes things aren't right and our team is serious about resolving these issues quickly. We can often help you fix small to medium issues over the phone or email.

    If you need to return an item please read our return policy.

    Learn About Returns

Get FREE shipping on qualifying orders! Any order $150+ with a shipping address in the contiguous US will receive the option for free ground shipping on items sold & shipped by Pyramyd AIR during checkout. Certain restrictions apply.

Free shipping may not be combined with a coupon unless stated otherwise.

View Shipping Info

Text JOIN to 91256 and get $10 OFF Your Next $50+ Order!

* By providing your number above, you agree to receive recurring autodialed marketing text msgs (e.g. cart reminders) to the mobile number used at opt-in from Pyramyd AIR on 91256. Reply with birthday MM/DD/YYYY to verify legal age of 18+ in order to receive texts. Consent is not a condition of purchase. Msg frequency may vary. Msg & data rates may apply. Reply HELP for help and STOP to cancel. See Terms and Conditions & Privacy Policy.