by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- It depends
- One hand for me!
- One hand target hold
- Limp wrist
- Why ever hold with just one hand?
- Why use two hands?
- What I’m not discussing
- Last word
I’m writing this report for all the newer readers we have been getting over the past few months. I see a lot of discussion about handguns and many people are having problems with the hold. What’s right — one hand or two?
It depends
Like most things, this issue has no single correct answer. It’s a situational question. What you are doing dictates how you should hold your handgun.
One hand for me!
I started out only holding handguns in one hand. I was in my 50s before I ever tried holding with two — I was that rigid! My teachers were men like Elmer Keith who held handguns in what was considered a classic fashion at the time. It wasn’t until the 1970s that I saw a person hold a handgun with two hands, and when I did I was shocked. Then I learned that law enforcement was teaching this hold and that people were doing so much better with it than with a one-hand hold.
What finally convinced me was losing an informal 5-shot “match” to a local police handgun trainer in the late 1990s. We shot in Atlantic Guns in Silver Spring, Maryland and we both shot a Feinwerkbau P30 10-meter pistol. I shot one-handed and he used two hands, and after 5 shots his group at 10 meters was smaller than mine. I felt like Robin Hood at an archery match where the other guy split my arrow (see Robin Hood, Men in Tights). I lost a $20 bet that I thought was a sure thing, and, worst of all, my wife witnessed the whole thing. Losing in front of her made me feel pretty bad!
After that, I decided to experiment with a two-hand hold and see what was the big deal. It turned out that some guns — mainly semiautomatics — do lend themselves to a two-hand hold. There are exceptions like the German Luger, but they are few. Generally the boxy semiautos like to be held by two hands. I found I could shoot noticeably better using two hands than using just one. But it doesn’t end there, because it isn’t that simple.
One hand target hold
I had learned how to hold a 1911-style pistol with just one hand many years earlier. The man who taught me also demonstrated the capability of that gun that until then I thought was pretty inaccurate. A 1911A1 in Lieutenant Colonel Bonsall’s hands was a real shooting machine! He got me interested enough to pay attention to what he did, and I could see immediate results. I reported on that special hold in this report.
Limp wrist
If you hold some semiautomatic pistols too lightly in one hand, they will not function reliably. This is called “limp-wristing” the gun and the 1911-style guns are very susceptible to it. But holding with two hands makes it more difficult to limp-wrist the gun.
Limp-wristing does this — some guns like those built on the 1911 platforms use the recoil momentum to operate their slide. That momentum extracts and ejects the fired cartridge, cocks the hammer and strips another cartridge from the magazine before loading it into the chamber. This all happens in a fraction of a second — too fast to see, really. If you hold the gun loosely, you allow the gun’s mass to absorb some of the recoil momentum, taking it away from the slide that needs it to complete the reloading and cocking cycle. The most common symptom of a limp-wristed gun is a “stovepipe” jam. That’s when an empty cartridge is found sticking out of the ejection port on top of the slide — usually with the open end of the cartridge sticking out. The correction for this problem is to hold the pistol more tightly, so that your hand stops it when the gun fires.
Why ever hold with just one hand?
If a two-hand hold is more accurate — and I admit that I believe it usually is — then why would you ever hold a handgun with just one hand? Good question. Here are some reasons.
The rules of 10-meter air pistol, free pistol (.22 caliber pistol shooting at 50 yards), sport pistol and many other sports require a one-hand hold. If you try to hold the gun with your other hand you will be disqualified.
Then there are sports like Cowboy Action Shooting that may allow a two-hand hold, but many people prefer not to use it. Cowboys shot with one hand and the single actions were made to work well that way. The only good reason for shooting two-handed is to speed up your shooting because of faster recoil recovery and your thumb action to cock the gun is easier. If a shooter is motivated by his score he’ll use two hands. If history is his focus, he’ll use one. That goes for women, as well, except that women, being smaller-boned on average, may have a more legitimate reason to use two hands. They may also be historically correct in doing so.
Why use two hands?
We know that two hands give the shooter greater control of the handgun, but why would you want to do it? Well, hunters want accurate shot placement, and a two-hand hold gives them an advantage. Shooters in the action pistol sports and other timed events such as shooting at bowling pins need all the advantages they can get to lower their time scores. Two hands allows for that, because with two hands the handgun is at the apex of a triangle, rather than a weight on the end of a pole. A triangle is far more stable when moving rapidly.
What I’m not discussing
I have not addressed any of the specialized two-hand holds. These are all proprietary and shooters argue over them like they do sports teams. Personally, I use a couple different two-hand holds, depending on what I’m doing. So don’t think I forgot about this — I just didn’t address it.
Last word
My last word on the subject is that everyone needs to learn how to shoot a handgun one-handed just as all drivers should learn how to drive a manual shift car. Don’t tell me that you will never need to drive a stick because you will always have an automatic. I have seen too many instances where a person was in a situation they didn’t count on and were stymied because they were not up to the task.
You may not prefer to shoot one-handed, but at least learn how.
Tom,
I’m a believer that range time with a powder burner should include two handed, strong hand, and weak hand practice.
Jim
Jim,
I almost got into the strong hand/weak hand discussion. But I thought there was enough information in this report for a first time discussion.
I also though about mentioning barracaded shots, but again — too much info.
B.B.
Tom,
I read you article on the one handed hold for the 1911. Great information. I’m going to try it next time I’m at the range.
Jim
B.B.
I heartily concur with your sentiments here! When I shot .22 long rifle target pistol matches, it was 2-pound trigger minimum and one-hand hold only. While I can shoot better with a two-hand hold, you can get pretty darn accurate with one (and LOTS of practice! =>). Also, you never know when you might sustain an injury; that’s why I practice one-hand shooting with both the right and left hand for my self-defense handguns. The best practice is to shoot my .177 caliber Webley Tempest one-handed; when you can shoot a good group that way, doing the same with any firearm will seem pretty easy by comparison. A great write up; thank you!
take care & God bless,
dave
Dave,
You answered a question I had after reading BB’s article. One of my most accurate air handguns is the Crosman 1377. The Crosman is pretty barrel heavy so difficult with with my old weak wrist to properly hold it one handed, let alone shoot it. Happily I have a Webley Tempest. Since I can’t group well with it no matter what I try may as well have fun shooting it one handed and get some practice and who knows ? Thanks for the reply and thank you BB for another enlightening post.
Harvey
Thanks for the kind words; you are most welcome, Harvey! =D
The NPistol was a bigger to shoot one handed with all that weight at arm’s length and still trying to align the sights. I now have a dot sight mounted and dialed in. Just waiting for it to warm up a bit so I don’t shoot up the house too bad.
Totally concur about learning to shoot one-handed, behind the back handed, and any-which-way-handed, and all that. One never know how things are going to work out, do one?
But I one day I asked Dad, about the one-hand-two-hand thing.
Now Dad was just about the only guy I ever knew that had the honest-to-God-point-blank-shoot-out with a very cranky enemy officer armed with a Nambu pistol in one hand and a Katana in the other. The enemy officer, one-handed, proceeded to empty the Nambu at Dad, sequentially missing him approximately seven or eight or so times.
As Dad later related, “As trained, I carefully aimed at his mid-section and got him right between the eyes.”
In other words, missed his intended target by at least two feet.
This would be the poster replay of the average point-blank-gun-fight.
. (This witnessed by the full Platoon he was leading at the time and very many years later verified by the surviving Platoon members to me.). Whew!!
“So,” I said, what’s the verdict?” One hand or two.?
“Two hands only if you want to hit what you’re aiming at.”
As has been said, “Truth is truth and opinion really doesn’t enter in to it.”
Addendum.
I still have the Katana and a photo of Cousin John-Dean holding the Nambu.
Not picking, but you meant “losing” instead of “loosing.”
Joem5636,
Right you are. I made the changes. Thanks.
There was nothing to loose, because nothing was too tight.
B.B.
And my spell check changed “nit” ….
B.B.
I wish you many blessing for 2016. 2015 has been a bummer…..
FWIW, I shoot my RWS LP8 with 2 hands and my RWS 6G with one hand. The grip and the weight make all the difference.
The article reminds me of a great Olympic story. Please correct me if I have some facts wrong.
In 1936 a Hungarian Calvary Officer won the Gold Medal in small bore pistol shooting right handed. During WWII,
he lost his right hand. At the 1956 Olympics in Helsinki, he won the Silver Medal shooting left handed.
Happy New Year all,
-Yogi
Yogi:
This one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1roly_Tak%C3%A1cs
He won gold in 1948 & 1952 left handed after his right hand of injured in 1938. Inspiring story.
Jim
Thanks for the link! Yes that is the guy. They say it but do not emphasis it, he won the gold medal in 1952 and coached the silver medal winner. How would he have felt if he had coached the gold medal winner and won the silver? Very Inspiring story..
Happy New Year….
-Y
Yogi,
From what little bit I was able to read about him, I believe he would have been first in line to congratulate the winner.
Jim
Happy New Year
Jim
Happy New Year to All!
B.B.,
Many people receive their training from TV and film. Obviously westerns and early police programs show one-handed holds. The SAA shot by John Wayne in countless westerns was held with one hand on the same manner as Clint Eastwood held his .44 magnum S&W in the early 1970s (One difference in realism was that in old westerns guns have no recoil, whereas Harry Callahan apparently shot with a stiff wrist and limp elbow — his revolver thrust upward with each shot.)
For the past 25 years TV and cinema cops use two-hold techniques. But bad guys often use one-hand holds as a representation of their outlaw nature. They don’t shoot the “proper” way because they themselves are not proper citizens.
Check this one out, the transitional hold used by Paul Kersey (Charles Bronson) at a gun range in the first Death Wish film: http://shrineofcharlesbronson.blogspot.com/2013/02/review-death-wish-1974.html
Michael
B.B.
Can you comment on how much of a difference either the one-handed grip versus two-handed grip makes when shooting a semi-automatic BB/pellet air pistol with blowback? How much of a difference is there when shooting non-blowback semi-automatic BB/pellet air pistols or BB/pellet revolvers with either a one-handed or two-handed grip? Or due to the reduced power and recoil of air pistols / revolvers, is there really no significant difference or advantage to shooting one-handed or two-handed?
Charles,
It isn’t the recoil that two hands helps with. It’s the steadiness. Regardless of what kind of handgun it is, a two-handed hold done right is always steadier than one hand.
B.B.
Had to abort sight-in on the 2240 last night. The Gamo sight has it hitting the very edge of my backstop and flipping pellets into the shower.
Had to fill it first so it’s got a fresh 2000psi. Woulda left a nasty dent in the back door!
Just about as warm as it’s gonna get today, i’ve got the 2240 clamped in my rest but still no clean backer.
B.B.,
Regarding “The Fido Effect”, yesterdays blog,…I just tried 10 dry and 10 with Pellgun Oil on thumb and 1st 2 fingers, 1 drop per 5 shots. It cut the group in half. This is the first time I tried it. All shots were good. I urge you to explore it, as I will more. A slight “messy”, but it worked first time out. I am thinking foam with oil and a hand wipe between loading and shooting. 1 flyer on first group, none on 2nd.
Chris USA
That is a big difference. So the oil has to be making a bearing surface in a sense. It’s helping stabilize the bb as it moves down the barrel. Probably helping to seal the air that try’s to push past.
Did you do any chrony readings? I bet it sped up the velocity of the bb too.
GF1,
Will most likely try some chrony this weekend. The TX and LGU are getting lonely. 😉 Stay tuned.
Chris USA
So your saying your going to brave the cold and get some trigger time on the LGU and Tx.
30 degrees here right now and dead calm out. I been shooting since 11:30 this morning.
GF1,
That?,…is coming from Mr. heated and a/c cooled enclosed breezeway shooter?
Me thinks,….not. Indoor 41′ will do fine,…. thank you. 😉 Chris
Chris USA
I was waiting to see if you noticed that I didn’t include that.
Yep got my dual burner “Mr.Heater” propane heater cranking. A nice toasty 70 degrees in here right now with the the window open.
Matter of fact I think I better turn it down a little right now. Get’n a little to warm. 😉
GF1,
🙂 Your gonna’ get me looking for another house with a breezeway yet!!!!
I am happy for ya’,….and for us,…..with all the shooting you get to do year round, we get the benefit of all your shooting and testing. That is a good thing…..
Chris USA
If anybody shoots air guns at home I would say a breezeway is number one priority when looking for a house. Not kidding its definitely made a difference in how much I get to shoot.
And don’t know about testing. I really ain’t done much lately. But I did just go put me out a new reactivate target so to speak.
I had some old 1″ diameter pipe poles that are about 6′ tall and curve at a 90 degree angle at the top. We used them at the other house to hold the hummingbird feeders from. Tryed to put food out for them here this summer but no luck yet with getting any to come. I think it’s to open and they have other food sources.
But anyway I put a foot long piece of string on it and a hook. So I took a aluminum can and poked a hole in it and hung it on the hook. Pretty fun knocking it around. And I seriously mean around. If I hit the bottom of the can just right the can will do about 4 quick loops. Pretty fun.
But back to shooting. The daylight is fading.
Stay tuned… love that! Pun totally intended!
RDNA
And totally true.
Wonder how many people out there actually get inside their guns and try to make them better.
Or how many people are happy with a gun as is. Or don’t want to brave getting inside.
Most of the air guns seem to be pretty good as is. And you know its pretty easy to mess up if you you don’t really know what’s going on when you try to tune.
Maybe we’ll enough should be left alone. All depending on the gun and the person.
But yea that is a good way to look at it. “Stay tuned”
CHRIS USA
Fantastic! Thanks for taking the time to try it out!
Today I tried a few groups with Copperhead BB’s. with no significant difference in group size oil or no oil. The Copperheads run considerably smaller than the premium ones I had been using and with a lot more variation in size. (Thanks to B.B. suggesting the BB gage!) So there’s more to learn! Thanks again for the confirmation!
Fido 3030
Fido3030,
1 caution. In testing, removing the oil residue from the barrel would be a concern. Once you run some lubed bb’s down the barrel, there is going to be residue left. Pipe cleaners or a .177 swab/mop would be the trick for that. Plus, you have the bbgage, which I do not. Sounds to me like you got some testing to do. 😉 (bb type/brand, lube, no lube, bb size,….you get the idea).
I will try some more, but test over time is the true test of something. I will say, my jaw dropped when I went down range to have a look see.
Fido3030,
On the outside chance that the comment did not come off right,…..your idea appears to be a good thing. My point was that if you are testing lubed and non lubed of different bb’s, it would be important to have a “dry” barrel, for (dry) testing. As for me, the same applies. Ideally, all dry test would be performed first, followed by all “wet” test. That is why I wanted you to consider any residue and how it might skew your testing. That’s all.
Just dove into this metal receiver Powermaster66, as expected, it’s not much different from the 760’s aside from it’s longer stroke. This one does have a rear anchor for the barrel shroud inside the receiver, metal breech-block/ transfer port and was full of oily yet rusted copperhead BB’s.
CHRIS USA
Good points. It alao might be best to store a gun with the muzzle down so the oil doesn’t gum up the action and saturate a wooden sock over time.
Fido3030
Fido3030,
No problem on the oil saturation. It will not happen. What oil are you using and what gun are you testing in?
Also, you did not say if you had a chrony. If not, I will do what I can for you.
Fido3030,
Looking over recent blogs, you do have a chrony….. ;( Sorry. Getting old I guess. I will do some this weekend to see if it went up from the 219.
As for the “wooden sock”, you got to get out more,….they make em’ in cotton these days. Much more comfortable and no splinters! 😉 Outa’ here,…..Chris
BB and all,
I have an off topic question about the Air Venturi scuba tank adapter that I received today. It worked great for filling but when I went to take it off the tank the black knob backed off leaving the adapter on the tank. No, I didn’t over tighten the adapter when I put it on – finger tight only and, yes, I bled the pressure off first.
It appears that there is a hole for a set screw but the grub screw is missing. Can anyone confirm that the knob is held on with a screw? And if yes, does anyone know the size?
Thanks,
Jim
Jim,
I’m sorry, but I can’t figure out what you are talking about from your description. This may be a case where you need to call Pyramyd Air’s tech department.
B.B.
Tom,
It was just a missing set screw..
Thanks,
Jim
CHRIS USA
Hi, Here’s some Chrony dope:
Gun Daisy 840; BB’s Umarex gaged at 4.42 mm (most common size–not a lot of variation)
Distance 5 m: Indoor; Pellgun oil.
Velocity Dry: 335 fps; Velocity heavy oil 336 .
Groups: Dry 3/8 inch ctc; with oil 7/16. About as close as I can hold so I don’t think difference is significant.
Comment: I’ve been shooting this gun a lot and the barrel may be thoroughly oiled. This is better than an 840 would be expected to shoot, which is what we’re after anyway. The gaged and sorted BB’s may also be significant.
The barrel is not readily removable like a 499 for “degreasing,” which would be necessary for really thorough testing. Of course the barrel removal and degreasing could introduce other sources of error……
Anyway adding the oil certainly doesn’t seem to hurt anything. I think for sure it helps prevent fliers. Earlier I roughened a spot on one side of some unsorted Umarex BB’s. Without oil the group was 7/8 inch; with oil it was 7/16. (only one 5 shot group each).
Hope you can make something of this. At least the 840 shoots well. Now I know a little of what B.B. goes through in his gun tests!!! And almost every day!
Happy New year to all!
Fido3030
Fido3030
What error do you think removing the barrel would cause?
Point of impact in relation to point of aim. Or group size?
Fido3030,
Thank you for that. Yes, it is a bit of work,…but it’s fun and really fun when see an improvement. That fact that the 840 is shooting better than usual is a good sign. I do not think that removing the barrel will do anything on the 499. I even used a bit of Teflon thread tape on the threads. It is all a pretty nice and tight fit assy.
You may remember, I put a clear pvc tubing/sleeve on the barrel. The idea here was to dampen barrel harmonics. That was my first test. It cut the groups in half from normal on average. It was 1/4″ id and was too tight to go straight on. I just cut one long slit, end to end, put it on and electrical tape around that. It worked well and can be easily removed.
As for cleaning fixed barrels,….pipe cleaners, 1/8″ wood dowel rod with some paper towel taped on or fishing or weed wacker line with some paper towel taped on it. For the flexible versions, feeding in at breech and pulling through to muzzle would be the ticket. I do not think I would go so far as to use any solvents. A couple of dry pulls ought to do it well enough.
I will do some chrony on it this weekend. I have around 50 ten shoot bulls saved, so I have plenty of “dry data”.
I have had real good luck with duct tape on the back of my homemade paper targets (for pellets) but have yet to find something that does well for bb’s. It makes it hard to measure a group when the paper is all tore up. It is not too bad if you have some shot separation, but is real tuff when they all start landing in the same 3/8″ hole. One thing I have yet to try for bb’s is electrical tape on the back of the target. My gut tells me that may be perfect. We’ll see.
B.B.,
Excellent article. I shoot pistols two-handed simply because I am a terrible one-handed shot. I need to make time for much more practice. At least with two hands I can hit soda cans at 25 yards with my P1. My brother-in-law uses the classic one hand hold and he usually outshoots me.
I also agree with you on learning to drive a manual transmission car. My wife taught me to drive a manual and now my favorite car has a stick. They can even make an economy car fun to drive.
By extension, everyone should also be able to drive a motorcycle (I do). Never know when that will be your only means of escape…
Paul in LIberty County
CHRIS USA and Gunfun1
Hi, I meant taking the barrel out of the 840 eventually causing problems. I haven’t done it, so maybe it wouldn’t be. The 499 is straight forward and shouldn’t be a problem. I’m thinking about degreasing the 840 without disassembly by holding muzzle down and using solvent (alcohol?) on a cleaning rod. I think I can keep it off the seals. Thoughts?
A while back someone mentioned a ball floating in a glass tube on an air stream. I wonder if it would be possible to make a verticle glass tubing wind-tunnel with a floating BB to see exactly what the oil does. Thoughts?
Fido3030
Fido3030,
Pellgun oil is silicone based so I do know how well alcohol would work. Muzzle down sounds good, at least tilted down slightly. As for a tube test, check out a pet supply store that has aquarium supplies. They sell stiff tubing of all sizes, some as low as 1/16″ id.. That would a good cheap first start. Then regulate the air down real low. I am not sure what it would show but it would be interesting. I would guess the oiled bb would “float” higher due to a better “seal”.
Correction,…I do NOT know how well alcohol would work. Man,…I hate that!
Fido3030,
Some updates,…..As mentioned above, I have been trying different combinations of tape on the back of targets to get clean bb holes. I tried duct tape, electrical tape, a combo of 1 each, 2 layers duct tape and 3 layers duct tape. Thus far, the 3 layers of duct tape have shown the best results. Just passing that along since you are collecting group data.
As for the 499, the oiled bb’s are taking up to 5 seconds to reach the breech!!! The oil is at work! Groups are tighter. The “THWACK” is louder. 😉 Still need to chrony.
I did do a bit easier way to oil the bb’s. I took a cheap sponge, the one’s that stay soft and folded it in half. I then took a sharp knife and cut a shallow V in it. Unfolded, there is a nice little “well” that the bb’s will lay in. Put about 10 drops of Pellgun oil in the well and drop in the bb’s. Roll ’em around and you have lubed bb’s. Keep an old T-shirt nearby to wipe fingers on and you are good to go. This would be a good set up even if a person was not doing the lube bit. Best I have tried thus far.
Hope some of that helps. I do appreciate all of your testing.
Fido3030
That was me that mentioned the glass tube. We have gauge at work that measures air flow through parts we make and if a seal is leaking or not.
The ball rising in the tube tells the air flow but also you can see how the ball never touches the glass tube. It is always suspended in the center of the tube. The air trys to pass by or blow by is what I should say.
But yes I bet your idea of adding oil in the glass tube with a BB would give some good information.
Gunfun1
Thanks for the input. I’ve been searching for glass tubing that’s about the size of a BB gun barrel. Maybe an aquarium pump for an air source? Maybe use glass tube as a BB gun barrel sleeved inside a metal tube?? This is getting interesting.
Fido3030
Fido3030
I don’t know the insides of the Daisy bb guns very well. Haven’t owned one. So don’t know what to suggest about the glass tube as a barrel.
It would be a nice idea for testing just so a person would be able to see. If you come up with something make sure you comment about it. I’m interested.
Fido3030,
Check out the aquarium stuff first. I think it would do close to what you want to try. And much cheaper.
The pellet testers, (wish I knew where to look and how to post it), are a bit more specialized. bb’s are pretty much the same, except for the diameter. Pellets are a whole different ball game. You have the pelletgage, so you are way ahead of the rest of the crowd. The airflow test may show diameter diff. and out of round. It will be interesting to see what you come up with if you pursue the idea further.
CHRIS USA
I have the BB gage. I just ordered the Pellet Gage for measuring lead BB’s which are too large for the BBG. I really like the BB gage. It’s showing which brands have a large variation and let’s me shoot the same size for groups, eliminating one variable. The oil still makes a difference.
The verticle tube might show surface variations if the BB oscillates from side to side or up and down in the airflow.
Lots of things to try……
Fido3030
CHRIS USA
Great work! That sounds like a good way to get a consistent amount of oil on the BB’s. Also, the time for the BB to drop down the barrel of the 499 is a good measure of oil build-up so you can maintain consistency as oil collects in the barrel. I will try that by dropping a BB down the muzzle of the 840 and then shooting it out before shooting a group for record. Do you use a small dowel rod to make sure BB’s are all the way down the 499? Have you tried masking tape as a target backer? Are you using Pellgun oil? I think you are putting more oil on the BB’s than I do. I’ll have to try that.
Fido3030
Fido3030,
Questions,…questions! 😉 The 499 bb’s drop all by themselves, just longer to get there. I have not tried masking tape, I will try. Yes on the Pellgun oil. And no, the sponge and oil on it is “just right”. Perfect I would say. Very light. And, very easy. You know how those bb’s can get away from you. Chrony results Sat. or Sun.
CHRIS USA and Gunfun1
I fired some dry cotton cleaning pellets through the 840. Guess what. The groups with dry pellets (Umarex gaged 4.42) opened up ro almost an inch with fliers. Worst I’ve seen in quite a while. Residual oil in the barrel must have been affecting even the “dry” pellets and possibly over-lubricated the “oiled” ones. I guess it’s important to develop a methadology to maintain the optimum amount of oil on the pellets and in the bore. Probably start with a clean and dry bore (easy in a 499).
Fido3030
Fido3030
I’m one of the people that does not clean my pellet gun barrels. And notice I say (pellet) gun.
I shoot my pellets dry. But I know some people lubricate pellets and some don’t.
What I have found though is if the groups I’m shooting start to get bigger I put a few drops of RWS silicone oil in the barrel where the pellets loaded at. That will usually get the groups back to normal in about 10 shots or so.
Now as far as BB guns go where the barrel is a smooth bore with no rifling. I can see lubing a bb could help.
You know you and Chris is going to make me get a 499 yet. 🙂
Get the 499!
I have little interest in a dedicated target BB gun but I’ve got a couple nice repeaters I need to choose one from.
Reb
I know I should get a 499. I know I’ll have fun with it. Especially with all this accuracy extraction talk going on.
I still just want a 99 with good sights or I may go with a nice 25.
REB
FWIW I bought some 99’s back in the day and was very disappointed in the accuracy. Nice sights, sling, etc. but doesn’t shoot better than a Red Ryder on average. I’ve had better luck with 25’s, one was exceptional, but none came close to 499 or 840. Just my 2 cents
Fido3030
I’ve got a grizzly that the plastic reservoir cracked on. Comes with a new barrel already pressed in like the x53’valves.
REB
Does the barrel rattle? The last new one i bought did. I popped off the front sight/bushing and put a wooden bushing around the inner barrel that holds it firmly inside the outer barrel. Then put sight/bushing back on. Then it shot as well as the others. It’s a great design but they missed QC on that one. Hope this helps. I’ve never heard of a bad 499
Fido3030
It did rattle and hissed when pumping, after I disassembled it I found the plastic had cracked around where the barrel is pressed in, they’re trying to free float that barrel with brittle plastic!
REB
That’s a shame. It’s a good design. I’ve had very good luck with mine except what i said before.
Fido3030
GF1,
If any one could max. one out, it would be you. This is one where a stronger spring is not an option. I would love to see you machine a piston for one ( or two,..hint ). Very simple design.
I just pulled a patch through this Powermaster66 and I’m glad I did! Of course this is a rebuild and it smells more like an old fishing reel than a gun but it’s looking promising.
🙂
Fido3030,
Sorry on the above, I did mean the bbgage. And great idea on the cleaning pellets. I did think of that after the fact but did not figure you had any just laying around. Great conformation on the 840! The oil film is obviously working to the good. Now that I have sent lubed bb’s down the barrel on the 499, I think I will just shoot it that way from now on. Plus, I have it the way I want it with the piston/seal modification, lubing the cocking lever and shoe and lubing the trigger with moly. The trigger is crazy smooth and light.
I just looked at the 499. I am near 100% sure that you can do the lube bits on the cocking lever and the cocking shoe and the trigger just by removing the cocking lever. It is only 1 bolt and can be removed quite easy as the cocking lever is under no pressure and will come right out. At the point, you will see the shoe that I am talking about. Lube the front of that (muzzle side) and the (bottom) and the cocking lever where it contacts the shoe and of course the pivot/bolt hole and the sides also. For the trigger, look in there with a flashlight and you will see some black plastic looking pieces on the front/muzzle side. Poke some moly in there as best you can and that is it. Go a bit heavy, it will not hurt. You will be amazed at the cocking effort and trigger pull. The trigger assy. is riveted together, so there is no real tear down you can do there anyways.
The (bottom) mentioned above,….heavy lube there is important as this is where the cocking shoe contacts the rod latch on the trigger. You will not be able to see it, or not well anyways, so the extra lube you put on the bottom of the shoe will do the job once you have the lever back in and cock it a few times.
Let me know if you try it. 1 bolt and some lube and you will not believe the difference.
On the masking tape, have you tried it, or any kind of tape? I do use a cardboard backer. Same as what you would see grocery items packed in. A piece of duct tape over the holes on the backer and I can use it 1 more time. Of course, we are talking about what to put on the back of the target/paper.
Keep us posted,…..Chris
Fido3030,
A bit of an update,…I did the chrony with lubed bb’s. 5 shots. HI 239. LO 232, AVG 235,…..which is up from the previous 219. It could be the TX seal is breaking in a bit, or the lubed bb’s, or a combo of both.
I am getting low on Avanti bb’s. About 150-200 left so I will have to cut back a bit. Going to get 2 tubs with the PA order today.
I did do the masking tape test as well. 5 shots each. I did 1 layer and another with 2 layers. Not bad. Better than nothing at all for sure. I will say the triple duct tape did seem to do a bit better, but not ideal. I will keep trying new things. The duct tape I have been using is a cheaper kind. I may try some Gorilla Tape or premium duct tape. The goal is have 2 bb’s touching and still see each hole. If I can do that, I will be happy for bb targets.
A side note, just saw on the TV news that California passed a law that all pellet and bb guns must be pink from now on. It should be interesting. The California sales will stop/slow or we are going to see a whole lot more pink air guns. A pink wood stocked TX200 anyone?
Checked it out and there’s a lot more to the new legislation than the color of an airgun. They’re taking guns from potential hostiles! Reminds me of Fred’s Democratik People’s republik of New Jersey.
Minority Report justice?!
Chris USA
Just thought I would let you know. I switched over to gorilla tape when I moved out to this house.
It gives a much firmer backing and it does seem to hold tight and smooth. In other words hard to get a wrinkle when your putting it on. And it sticks very well. I won’t even think about going back to the cheap gray tape.
GF1,
I just got back from shopping. I got a roll of the Gorilla tape. I look forward to trying it on bb targets. I will get those shot bb targets looking proper yet!!!!! 😉
Chris USA
It’s pretty tuff stuff. I wonder if the lower powered bb will make it through. But it does work nice with pellets.
Let me know how it goes.
GF1,
Went real well. Better than the 3 layer duct tape. 10 shot with bb’s. A couple of pairs landed real close to each and maintained separation without tearing the paper. As for power, they made it through fine. I will be sticking to the Gorilla tape!
Quite odd,…..you have not requested a 41′ test with the new mod and the lubed bb’s. You slippin’ there or what bud? 😉
Chris USA
Good I’m glad the gorilla tape is working for you. And I guess I keep under estimating the bb’s power.
How much does a BB weigh? You said your averaging 235 fps. If you tell the weight we can see what energy its making.
Hey by the way can you do a 41′ test with the oiled bb’s? I don’t know why I haven’t thought of that yet. 🙂
GF1,
Before,….10/10 (2 1/8″), 8/10 (1″),……Now,….10/10 (1 13/16″), 8/10 (7/8″).
Weigh,….really? Well ok,…. 5.5 grains.
Since I am doing all the work here,….you get to do the math! 😉
What are ya’ thinkin’? Coon gun? Maybe a little bigger critter? 😉 Chris
Chris USA
.67 fpe if I done the math right.
Just surprised that it’s punching through the gorilla tape.
Bet it won’t at 41′. Will it poke through one side of a aluminum can at 41′?
GF1,
10/10 on the Gorilla tape. Broke the can on 1 side enough for the bb to enter, but no bb inside. (All at 41′).
.67 fpe huh???? A “mouse”?,….. maybe??? 😉
Chris USA
Sounds like a good gun for a mouse. But watch out for ricochetes if you miss.
GF1,
Spot on , on the .67 per PA calculator. Cute on the mouse/ricochet bit? The hunter becomes the hunted,……..lucky,…for them!,….I don’t have any! 😉
So,….you any closer to get gettin’ one now that I have done all the “basic” stuff?
Chris USA
I just use my phone. It’s got a caculater. Yours should too.
But the formula is.
fps x fps x weight of the pellet ÷ 450240 = fpe
If I got a 499 I would definitely need to make me a bb trap for inside and outside use. Just don’t like bb’s scattered around the yard.
I know pellets too. But it seems that the bb’s like to lift up off the ground and go flying when you cut grass and their hard compared to a lead pellet. At least the pellets tend to bury theirself in the ground. One way or a half dozen others I guess. Just me.
Thought I’d give the 1077 a shot but something ain’t right with this one, I started releasing gas to make sure it punctured the cartridge but still no bang.
Could I be doing something wrong? I thought this gun would be good for my nephews but if I’m having trouble with it what could I expect their experience to be like?
Reb
I got a 1077. They have two little tabs on the receiver that allows you to slide the barrel forward incase of a pellet jam. Never tryed but maybe if that’s forward it won’t allow the gun to fire. I never tryed to fire when it was forward so don’t know.
See if that’s what’s wrong. Oh and is it a new or used gun by the way?
Just picked it up at Wally’s and I guess I was supposed to have the magazine in because I finally got something outta it and ran that cartridge out, got a mag loaded and will see how it likes these excite econs in just a moment.
Reb
Cool let me know how you like it.
I definitely like mine. Works real good with the HPA 88 gram tank that me and Buldawg did.
Find you one of the 88 gram adapters and give it a try. You can pull the trigger as fast as you want with the HPA and velocity won’t slow down.
I bought it as a Birthday present so I won’t be getting carried away with it but if it does well enough I’m sure I’ll get one to play with.
It’ll probably be alright if I can straighten the sights.
They were putting another half dozen out after I got mine so if it don’t work out with this one I’ll just exchange until I get one that’s up to snuff
This one put all 12 in about 1″ @ 12′
B.B., Some time ago you wrote a blog about learning how to shoot a handgun from an Army marksman. I remember it being full of all kinds of advice gems but, despite several lengthy search sessions, I’ve never been able to find it in the archives. I hope you are still monitoring the comments here and can give me a steer or a link. Much appreciated!
-Cal
Cal,
I gave the link to that report in this article.
Here it is:
/blog/2011/05/beeman-p1hw-45-air-pistol-part-3/
B.B.
Bingo! I bookmarked it this time and I’m sure I can remember to search for that beautiful P1 pistol to find it too, if I somehow lose the bookmark. Thanks so much!
B.B.
I wonder how one shoots a break barrel springer airpistol accurately and what kind of accuracy is possible say at 10 or 15 mtrs.
Manish
India
Manish
Read this report:
/blog/2011/05/beeman-p1hw-45-air-pistol-part-3/
I can usually keep the HW 45 in one inch at 10 meters. In the old days I could do a lot better.
B.B.
Cal,
Here is another BB link where Tom talks about the same hold and the same marksman with a bonus video.
/article/How_to_hold_an_air_pistol_for_greatest_accuracy_September_2009/70
Oh yeah–I remember that video now too. Bookmarked and thanks too, Mike!