by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Some basic truths
- What am I saying?
- What many do wrong
- Ready, fire, aim!
- Back to airgunners
- Use the sights!
- The end
Homework assignment. You need to watch the movie, “Karate Kid.” The moral of the movie is to slow down, concentrate and focus power! At least that’s what Mr. Miyagi tells Daniel-san.
Another phrase from WWII is, “Straighten up and fly right.” It pretty much means the same thing.
I almost titled this report, “Why I shoot muzzle loaders,” but I thought that would turn off the very people I was reaching out to today.
Some basic truths
1. When shooting lead bullets in a big borte airgun, always size the bullet at least one-thousandth of an inch larger than the bore. This is the principal reason 9mm big bore airguns are not accurate when shot with 9mm bullets (0.356-inches) but tighten right up when shot with 0.357-inch and even 0.358-inch bullets.
2. The longer the bullet or pellet in a given caliber, the faster it has to spin to stabilize. Anyone who has ever thrown an American football in a spiral pass knows this.
By the way, there are two different ways of getting the spin faster. Decrease the twist rate ratio or drive the bullet faster.
3. Overloading a black powder arm beyond a certain point does not increase its power. An airgun corollary to this is the fact that an impact type air valve (i.e., knock open) has a pressure limit, above which it will degrade in power.
I learned all this stuff and a lot more by shooting muzzle loading firearms. They forced me to slow down and contemplate what I was doing.
What am I saying?
Do you need to shoot muzzle loaders? Of course not! What I’m saying is if you want to enjoy airgunning to its fullest you need to learn at least the basics of firearms performance, so you can apply them to your hobby.
What many do wrong
Daniel-san wanted to learn karate very quickly. Mr. Miyagi had him wash and wax all his cars. Then he had him sand the extensive deck that covered almost the entire backyard of Miyagi’s home. Finally he had him paint the fence that ran around the perimeter of the property. When the boy finally rebelled at all the work, his trainer showed him that what he was really doing was developing muscle memory and reflexes.
Ready, fire, aim!
Many new airgunners buy an air rifle, scope it and then discover they can’t hit anything. Was the gun they bought accurate? Was the scope proper for the gun? Was it properly mounted? Is it adjusted outside the range and is the reticle floating? Is the shooter familiar with the special hold we call the artillery hold? What we often see is they just finished watching a Jason Bourne movie and they want to shoot like him. Here is the deal — even Jason Bourne can’t shoot like Jason Bourne!
Like young Daniel-san, these new airgunners want to start shooting at the expert level. But if they lack the basics, they can never rise that high.
Here is an example of what I am saying. Yesterday a young woman called her mother because her car “broke down.” What was wrong? Well, It didn’t “go” when she put it in gear.
Obviously the transmission was broken.
Or, was it?
Automatic transmissions work by using hydraulic pressure to move the parts that on manual transmissions have to be moved by people. In an automatic transmission, a fluid that resembles oil is used to generate and transmit the hydraulic pressure to the parts that need it. It is called automatic transmission fluid. Don’t get hung up on the fact that I called ATF oil. I know it has loads of additives and is vastly different from motor oil. I’m just making a simple point. Without ATF, an automatic transmission will not work.
In fact, if the automatic transmission is low on ATF, it acts just like it is broken. Add ATF to the correct level and the transmission just might start working again!
But, since adding ATF is not something you can do with a smart phone app, a younger person might not even be aware that is has to be done. That’s not a slur against young people. It’s just the way our world works these days. How can they know what they haven’t been exposed to?
Back to airgunners
How does this apply to airguns? Well, I run into new shooters who buy a gun and can’t mount the scope. The gun has open sights, but since they have never used open sights, they sit around thinking their new airgun will not work. Think I’m exaggerating?
Use the sights!
What about this one — a guy has an airgun that’s getting 4-inch groups at 10 yards and he’s blaming the cheap scope that came with the gun. Why not take that scope off and try shooting with the open sights? Then you would know whether it is the scope or the gun. “Well,” he says, “I’m 48 years old and these tired eyes just can’t see well enough to shoot with open sights any more.”
Poor you! I’m a little older (69), and my sighting eye that went blind last April has a repaired retina, a serious cataract, astigmatism and sees 20/100 before correction, but I have continued to use open sights.
The difference is, I learned many years ago how to put wax on and take wax off.
That’s the lesson today. Learn more about how to shoot. I’ve done it through a lot of reading and by shooting muzzle loading firearms that put me in contact with the lowest levels of gun operation. To get any more basic than shooting a flintlock I would have to make the gunpowder myself, which I also know how to do.
The end
I know I’m preaching to the choir today. The people who bring me their shooting problems — the Daniel-sans of the airgun world — usually haven’t got the time to listen to my answers. They just want to shoot!
Yes they are out there among us.
We have to guide them.
High schools should have a set of classes that teach basic life skills that can’t be done with an app.
Checking/changing the oil, knowing what the different color puddles under your car mean, changing a flat, working within a household budget, cooking, how to fill out a 1040ez.
Today’s appliances are designed to be replaced instead of repaired. Growing up a maytwg washer lasted 20+years (remember the Mayfair repairmen commercials?)
Today’s washers are designed to be replaced after 5-8 years (a friend is a sears & maytag service tech.)
But fixit shops are making a come back, including ones that you bring your broken items to and qualified people TEACH you how to repair your own stuff.
Speaking of muzzle loaders, aren’t we due for a new chapter of teach me to shoot?
Have fun at shotshow. .
45Bravo,
I would love to do another chapter of Teach me to shoot, but the response I got from the flintlock videos was underwhelming. I thought I was boring readers, so I stopped. There is more to tell, of course, because I am B.B. Pelletier! 😉
B.B.
The response early on seemed positive and enthusiastic.
I wonder if the flintlock road was too off track for some people, even though the correlation between the way an airgun and black powder guns act are similar.
Maybe a different path.
45Bravo,
I went that way because several readers expressed an interest in it. But I think their interest was casual, not committed.
B.B.
BB,
I enjoyed the entire series of teach me to shoot blogs and am looking forward to additional installments. I don’t always comment when I like a blog but, true fully, I can’t think of a blog that I didn’t like.
I would like to encourage you to continue the teach me to shoot blogs.
Thanks,
Jim
I hate autocorrect. true fully should be truthfully.
Jim
BB
I for one, enjoy practically every article you decide to publish on your blog. I think the fault lies with us for not providing you with more feedback on articles not immediately pertaining to airguns. When you do write articles on fire arms, black powder guns, and shooting, etc, I feel I have too little knowledge of the subject to evan mack a half educated comment. Of coarse this flies in the face of the advice I would give my classical guitar students about there being no stupid questions.
However, I was able usually able to understand the point you were making, and how relevant the crossover to airguns was from your detailed explanations, and of those folks who did bother to comment.
Your blog is pure gold for people around the world who enjoy the wonderful hobby of airguns, and airgun shooting. I know from experience, how much I have transferred the knowledge from my decade of competitive archery to shooting airguns. Everything from aiming, releasing the string (trigger), to follow through, and the importance of setting up the next shot so it’s identical to the previous one.
Please continue writing the articles you feel are relevant. Anyway, knowledge is never wasted on those with a keen interest to learn something new each day.
Ciao
Titus
Back in the 70s, my junior high school had shop classes. I took classes in drafting and wood shop. Electrical shop was an option, but I couldn’t fit it in my schedule. Like you I think shop classes should be a standard part of the junior high – high school curricula, especially for those students who don’t have the academic ability for college.
B.B., I’m sure you’ve heard about the new pcp air rifle from Benjamin, the Wildfire. Based on the 1077. I’ve read about you and your 1077, and yours is certainly more accurate than mine. I hope Pyramid Air gets the first one to you for a review, as the new gun is generating a lot of interest on the Gateway to airguns forum. Seems it’s going to sell from $139-$149. 2000 psi rated for hand pump use, and, just like the 1077, it’s a 12 shot repeater. It has all the makings of a great seller.
I hate autocorrect, it should be maytag washer, and maytag repairman.
Mr. Gaylord:
Daniel-san was committed to his sport. He kept coming back. Not every junior who comes out to shoot with the crew is so committed. I’ve learned working with juniors that they all want to have fun. If it’s fun from the beginning, they’re more likely to come back and develop their marksmanship skills. So I try to build on their “fun factor” first.
Having said that, I wish had a penny for every new junior I’ve heard say something like “this gun doesn’t shoot right”. In 10 meter shooting there’s no scopes. It’s all aperture sights, circles within circules with the black bull centered in the middle.
I’ve found that the absolute first step with every new junior is to not only insure that they have fun right from the beginning but also quickly build their confidence in their ability to hit the target.
I use the big target, close range and large front aperture method. It’s built on the very adjustable Air Force Edge platform. This, in my opinion, is the best 10 meter rifle for a junior to shoot. Not the least expensive. But definitely a rifle they can grow into.
As their marksmanship improves, the distances increase, their positions and hold control improve and the front aperture can get smaller.
And then competition begins to be fun. To say nothing of possible future college scholarship funds.
Respectfully submitted
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Ventrue Crew 357
Chelsea , MI
Bravo! It is indeed most difficult to teach this generation to shoot. I applaud your efforts!
William,
Thank you for your comment. You obviously understand the problem and have learned to deal with it.
Good show!
B.B.
I am reminded of the “……teach a boy to fish and feed him for a lifetime” story. I started with a cane pole, then a push button caster and fished my entire youth. Later, I advanced my knowledge and got nicer equipment and became much more skilled at all levels. And, if I had to,… I can still feed myself through fishing.
Basic cooking skills is something else that is seriously lacking today. I hate to think of all of the money that will be wasted on eating out 24/7 and all of the unhealthy “food” that involves. Good article.
Chris U
Do any outside accuracy testing with the Maximus yet?
We got freezing rain going on here today and tomorrow. Suppose to get from a 1/4″ to 3/4″ by tomorrow evening. And it was just 68° the last few days.
The cornstalks that are left in the feild are blowing up nice when hit with the pellet. Makes a nice blast of ice flying everywhere. Fun stuff.
GF1,
No outside. 28F now. Mom and Dad help today. Just sent you and Vana2 and Buldawg76 an E-mail. We are going to get that ice tonight and in the AM. It will do nice,…. I am confident. Really though,…. it is for 15-40 yards. I got a feeling it will be a no miss “critter getter”. The 1″ kill zone ought to be right in that 15-40. I still need to do Chairgun.
Chris U
Mine hits bottle caps out to 50 yards no problem. Mine is actually a little on the unfair side for critters. A sparrow at 50 yards is really too easy.
What size critters you plan on getting from 15-40 yards?
GF1,
Squirrels. Spot and stalk. The occasional Chipmunk. I really do not have any pest birds. I do not feed the birds but would not mind. A bit of cost associated with that,…. but that would be a critter magnet. My 30-100 in the woods provides a fair bit of opportunity for critters crossing the shooting lane. That is usually the M-rod and sometimes the TX and LGU if at the bench. That is not really “fair” either. 😉 I have yet to ever see a rabbit in my yard. Have seen about 40 Turkeys over the 10 years I have been here.
Chris U
Sqerrials don’t stand a chance at those distances. The chipmunk. Well that’s a little different.
You going to be using your rest or standing unsupported shooting?
Back when I was a kid if I had my Maximus then. It would of been bad news for rabbits and sqerrials. Open sight and standing unsupported for the most part.
That’s what is nice about a very accurate gun. When you do unsupported shooting you have more room for sight error placement.
Reminds me of one of my buddies when we was young. Won’t mention the air gun. He had. But you would of thought he was the worse shot in the world when he first got it. He would shoot our other buddies air gun an he could anything. His gun nope. But after he shot his for awhile he was a very good shot with it. And me and the other buddy hated shooting it when it was our turn. He didn’t care. He shot them all good.
Yep the gun does make a difference. But when a person learns on a gun that is hard to shoot helps. I believe anyway. You pick up that good gun and it’s like night in day how it hits compared to that other one.
That’s what gun my Maximus is. It hits. And it takes nothing special to do it.
GF1,
Well,…. yet to do it,….. but off hand and braced on whatever, if convenient. It is light and balanced nice. I think I will do well off hand. I can practice off hand at my 41′ indoor range this Winter for nice practice sessions. I am very pleased with it.
Rested will be for sight in only and to make sure the sight in is as accurate as it can be. After that,…. it will be up to me.
Chris U
Sounds fun the way your headed with your Maximus.
That’s what my junior high school days and younger than that consisted of everyday. Couldn’t wait to get home from school and head out to the woods and lake and shoot and fish.
I been getting in the woods alot more this last year and now since I got my sqerrial dog or I should say puppy. Both his parents were sqerrial dogs. I been spending my free time if you want to calm it free with him in the woods. He has tree’d several already. Haven’t took him out with guns yet though. Although he’s around them when we shoot at the house.
Kind of funny. I still find it mighty relaxing to get out in the woods and enjoy a day of the other noise. Wildlife peice and quiet. Love it is all I can say.
And suppose to say free time.
Not calm time.
Although calm time sounds right too.
GF1,….. see bottom for new post.
BB,
I most certainly understand the challenges of teaching the youth of today to do things such as shooting air rifles. My chore is doubly difficult with my grandson. Not only does he expect to be an expert shooter the first time he tries, but he has ADHD so it has to happen now or his mind is elsewhere almost instantly. Teaching him to slow down is indeed challenging, but fortunately I have considerable experience as I too have ADHD. I have learned to be able to focus on…look a squirrel!
RR,
I have found the solution for “ADHD” (which I don’t believe in, by the way) is to shorten the experiences the boy likes most. Tell him that, until he can learn to do whatever it is you are teaching him, he really isn’t ready for that next (exciting to him) step. They learn to focus like a pointer if you do it right.
William Schooley has some good tips in his comment above.
B.B.
You don’t believe in a well documented medical condition?
I have some adults I want you to meet, without their medicine they can’t hold down jobs. I am sure they would be delighted to hear their medical condition has been declared false by the renowned medical doctor B.B. Pelletier.
Steven,
I didn’t mean to trip your trigger.
What I meant is — the “diagnosis” of ADHD in young boys is premature and unwarranted. They act that way because that is a part of growing up.
I do not dispute that a real medical problem exists, but, like COPD is pronounced on all men who snore loudly, a lot of what is said regarding ADHDmis not warranted. That is what I don’t believe.
B.B.
Those are all good points, I am just sick of the whole anti-science thing that has been so popular in the USA lately. On top of that, I manage an excellent worker that suffers from ADHD. Brilliant fellow, does his job very well, and when he can’t get his medicine due to DEA meddling, he is useless.
Everyone who gets a sleep study has Sleep Apnea, heck of a coincidence that.
Steven,
I think we are in agreement. I could tell you some funny stories about Hurricane Harlan who really did suffer that way (when I was in the Army), but I think I’ve said enough.
B.B.
BB,
I myself was skeptical of such until a few years ago my wife said I had all of the symptoms and suggested I see our doctor about it. After he evaluated me, he gave me a RX for amphetamines. Immediately I noticed my ability to focus on tasks rose dramatically.
As for your solution, this is how I managed to cope with the world throughout my life before this was diagnosed. At present this is how my grandson is learning to cope with the world and what I am using to teach him to shoot. This is also how his knowledgeable teachers are working with him. Hopefully he will not need medications.
I had a similar experience. Turns out I had low thyroid hormone.
My condition had been ignored for years, and it had major impact on my life, because it looked like ADHD to some.
B.B.,
Interesting how often your blog centers on human nature and managing behavior and personality traits. It’s more of that overall context stuff that makes reading you so rewarding.
One must learn to love the process involved in a pursuit in order to gain the rewards. And if you can’t do that, then you are in the wrong field. I love shooting, and sometimes hit the bull. I love bird photography, and sometimes I get the shot. But I love the doing. If it was only about the rewards, I’d have quit. Sorta counter-intuitive….
Thanks!
Walt
Walt,
That’s not counterintuitive to me! I love my job — hence I don’t work a day in my life.
B.B.
B.B.,
Your essay above reminds me of another: “Zen in the art of Archery,” by Eugen Herrigel in the 1940s. It was the influential work that began the endless (but I do not mean endless in a negative sense) “Zen and the Art of” texts.
Your lesson from a while back describing how to shoot air pistol illustrated excellent classic Herrigel-like techniques, by the way.
Michael
Humble Pie for breakfast today.
I was initially defensive reading the article especially when we got to the car analogy as I pride myself and being someone who does exhaustive research and learn everything possible before starting something new.
I take forever to make a decision as I abhor not having all of the details.
All that being said, I’ll the darned if I didn’t buy the fastest + cheapest springer I could find, slap a scope on there. …. wonder why I couldn’t hit anything … and promptly go buy a better scope
Happy to report after exhaustive hours and days reading this blog I am now merrily clicking away with my new second-hand Diana 34 with open sights and shooting far better than I ever did with my hyperdrive scoped first attempt.
However, my improved shooting is not primarily due to the more accurate (lower velocity) rifle. I slowed down, learned how to hold her, where she likes my hands and 10 tins of pellets later what she likes to eat.
Belgrath04,
First of all, most of us have done exactly the same thing (powerful airgun).
Secondly, I write in generalities. I know there are careful people like you, but they don’t need my preaching. It’s the ones who are inventing new universes to inhabit that need to be brought back to the start point. They are the ones I write for, most of the time.
B.B.
My point was that even as cautious as my personality typically is,
I too needed the preaching to slow me back down and restore the focused and methodical approach any new endeavour warrants
My boys have finally reached the age where they want to try hunting….lots of deer, elk and moose in our area.
This thinking b.b. is exactly the reason (as well as the historical aspect) that I am starting them off with a Sharps carbine (45-70).
Open sights, single shot…make that first shot count. And not worry if your scope gets bumped or your magazine lips get bent.
CSD,
Bully for you! That’s the way to do it. And make sure they can shoot on their hind legs, though always take a rest if one is available.
B.B.
BB, you should have also advised new air gunners to read the manual. A couple of days back a new guy about my age was jumping up and down in the forum, claiming how bad the air gun( Evolution copy) is and cursed the manufacturer and all of us who said good things about it. Each and every issue was addressed in the manual. Everyone thinks shooting is as easy as videogames, put the cross hair/ sights on the target and pull the trigger, your target is annihilated.
All said and done, I think I will still be working towards getting the Chinese scope. 😉
There’s an app for that. Would tell ya ta have fun at Shot, but know you’re workin’ fuzzy lil’ tail off. So Come home safe. Shoot/ride safe,
Beaz
Beaz,
Tail’s gettin’ shiny from bein’ worked so hard. Gonna hafta get me a union card soon.
B.B.
Note from your enabler. New bike would be cheaper. 2 wheeled therapy will fix what ever ails ya. Maybe some Jack if it’s terminal.
Beaz
Beaz,
The leader of my church fellowship group is The Little General — Robert E. Lee. You may remember him from his flat track racing days when he was a national champion, racing with Bart Markel, Mert Lawell and Gary Nixon. Talk about an enabler!
B.B.
Cool, legends. Ask if he ever raced with or knew Buddy Stubbs. He was national from that era. Owns 2 Dealerships here. Bought my bike from him. Send snail mail info & I’ll send copy of Buddy’s Museum that he narrates. Snortin’ Norton’s, Ariel Square fours, some real gems.
Beaze,
Robert says Buddy raced about 10 years before he did. He knows of him but they maybe didn’t meet.
B.B.
The other option is something I mentioned a few months back.
Start mentoring someone to take some of the workload.
Not someone a green as a Daniel san, but also, someone not as old and cranky as some of us regular ones on here..
I will second that. ROTC program? Future journalist/air gun interested person? Local schools? Engineering student? It may add some time in some areas, but would shorten time in others. Something to think about at any rate.
Heck,…. you could get into video’s and all of that!!!! 😉
“Grumpy”?!?!?!?!,…… who the $@&% is grumpy around here? 😉
I never said grumpy, cranky? Yes…
And I resemble that remark sometimes..
45,
Yup,… caught that after I hit the “post” button. BB really needs an “EDIT MY POST” option so we can go back and fix (just) our own post.
I resemble that at times myself. 🙂
That’s probably not a good idea, as people would be changing too much of their post when things don’t go their way.
You have seen that in the forums I am sure.
That manual video is long before he became guardian of the round table..
Tom has done videos.
Have you ever seen the video manual he did for the Talon SS?
It’s a full length movie!
Well, an hour anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4_6F_Ybh60
45Bravo,
No,… I have not seen. I will check it out. Thank you.
45Bravo,
Just did a quick scan of the video,…… VERY nice!
Hahaha! Great stuff, B.B.!
I’ve been away for a while and need to get caught up on your writing, but I really enjoyed this piece. =D
It reminded me of the guy who couldn’t believe I killed a deer at 70 yards with
“a gun that doesn’t even have adjustable sights” (my Hawken replica).
I assured him that the sights were adjustable…with a file, a drift rod, and a hammer. =)
Keep up the good work; I’m looking forward to another new year of great articles. Thank you.
take care & God bless,
dave
I enjoy these philosophical blogs, BB.
Shooting flintlocks vs other types of firearms is like comparing a tea ceremony to buying a big gulp for a caffeine fix :).
Springers are about the closest match.
I dont remember the flintlock video from teach me to shoot. That was one series that unfortunately I couldn’t get into, sorry, mainly stylistic differences. Seems like it is popular, though.
By the way, although I often disagree with you about pellgunoil, nothing wrong with calling ATF oil!
Very good writing. Some times we all need to remember to slow down a little.
After 28 years shooting air guns I obtained a new 1377, and could not hit a thing, was getting 1 inch groups at 10 meters, and just could not figure this out I have never had this problem with a 13xx in my life. Then I got my self to slow down and think about what I was doing, had I just realized that the pump head was dry, and that I was changing up pellets to quickly all would have been well. Now the same 1377 is turning in good sub half inch groups every time.
So yes it is important to remember to slow down, and pay attention to ones actions. This is how we learn.
All,
For those of you with an interest in the new Gamo Swarm, Rick has done a quick review of it. Most interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihw6wCbDeg4
RR,
Looks a bit funky,… but I like the concept. Way to go Gamo on innovation! I see that one showing up at Wally’s.
Chris,
One issue I see is it protrudes up in front of the scope. How much does it interfere with the sight picture?
BB,
Above we were talking of teaching today’s youth to shoot and William Schooley mentioned his school shooting program. A short while back I ran across this school shooting program and thought more states should investigate and possibly introduce this program.
http://www.studentairrifleprogram.org/
Perhaps we the shooters can spread the word about such and help introduce this to the youth of coming generations.
GF1,
I did the Chairgun today for the .22 Maximus, based on the chrony data from the 15.89’s and the 18.13’s. Chairgun amazes me every time I get on there. Turns out from 0-25, both pellets are right on the same arc. After 25, the 18.13’s will drop out of the 1″ kill zone 2 feet sooner than the 15.89’s. 40ft. vs 42ft.
Sight in range to keep the pellets in the 1″ kill zone the longest was 35yds. (18.13) and 37yds. (15.89).
FPE was 24.2 for the 18.13’s and 23.44 for the 15.89’s. So ballistic wise,.. the heavier pellets are not worth it.
1″ kill zone was close too. 7.7-40.2 (18.13) and 8.0-42.3 (15.89) Cool stuff! But, paper will tell the real story.
Chris U
Sounds good to me on both. But I think you’ll like what you see when you get outside to test the JSB 15.89’s. And I always have noticed that the jsb18.13’s gave pretty close to the same results as the 15.89’s when I shoot them. But the lighter 15.89’s do shoot a little flatter.
What scope height distance do you have? And did you try different scope heights with Chairgun just for the heck of it to see if one height my be better than the other?
GF1,
I have 1.5″ from scope center to bore center. The front lens cap is about 2mm off the barrel,… so I do not see making that any better (lower). I knew you said that you had not chronied yours,…. so I thought that you might be interested in some #’s plugged into Chairgun.
Chris U
What diameter objective lense does your scope have?
GF1,…… 40 mm.
Chris U
Ok but why did you say you can’t see it going any lower. Why not higher?
Try a higher scope distance and some different sight in distances with both pellets and see what it does with the 1″ kill zone. Maybe the 18.13’s would benefit from a different setup when you try it on Chairgun.
GF1,
Interesting. I thought lower was better. You have always said that,…. that you always try to get your scopes right down close to the barrel. If you were to (guess),… what would going up higher do? Push the 1″ kill zone out further? Extend the 1″ kill zone spread?
Chris U
It depends on what distance you will be shooting at most of your shots.
If your shooting longer distances most of the time a higher scope mount and and say 50 yard sight in would be good for a particular pellet. But then you might need alot of hold under if you shoot in say 40 yards and closer.
That’s why I say try different scope heights and zero distances and see if it shifts your kill zone to a different distance.
That’s what is cool about Chairgun. It might not be exactly true when you get out there and try it outside on some paper. But at least on the Chairgun program you can see what things do if you change them up from how you normally set up your scope.
GF1, Starting new thread.
Oooops on the above,…. 40yds. vs 42yds.,….. not feet.
GF1,
What do you think of that barrel band? An open figure 8 with set screws forcing the tube and the barrel to bottom out on the center. Do you think that there would be any benefit of grinding out the barrel side and doing away with the barrel set screw?,….. free float the barrel in other words.
Chris U
Back when I had my Discovery’s I tryed multiple things with the barrel band.
Here’s the things I did.
1)No barrel band at all.
2)Two barrel bands. One in factory location and one close to the end of the barrel by the fill fitting.
3)Tryed moving barrel bands in different location to maybe dampen harmonics.
4)Tryed one barrel band in different locations to try to dampen harmonics.
The best accuracy I got was with barrel band in factory location with another band out towards the end of the barrel by the fill fitting. Not much difference. But a difference. Maybe a 1/8″ better groups at 50 yards.
The Maximus I have right now still has only one barrel band in the factory location and set screws locked up hard. It is accurate as can be. Supposedly Crosman is using different technology to make the Maximus barrel. And they are supposedly going to start using that technology on the Marauder barrels. If you search it you’ll find some stuff about it.
GF1,
Thank you for the good and informative chat. Now,….. time to go shoot it some! 🙂
Indoors,……. 🙁 Gonna try some off hand. That breech is a “B” to load,… but I am sure I will get my own method going on eventually. Really, there is no excuse for that. Open the breech at the front or move the bolt back 1/4″. It is VERY obvious that not many of the engineers have ever tried loading one.
Later,….. Chris
Chris U
The 1377/22 and 2240 steel breech’s are the same as well as the Discovery’s.
What I do after I cock the bolt. I drop the pellet in the breech then use the top of my finger nail on my pointing finger/trigger finger and push on the skirt of the pellet and load it in the barrel. Then push the bolt closed.
What I see happening all the time if I let the bolt push the pellet in the barrel it trys to tilt the pellet and then you can feel the pellet drag on something. Possibly tearing the pellet up.
So I try to use my finger like I said to get it gently past that spot. Definitely a design flaw though.
GF
You have to love those breech end design flaws . A real pain .
tt
TT
Yep and it’s actually a pretty easy fix. I keep saying I’m going to do it to the Maximus. But the darn thing is just shooting to good for me to take it apart. I’m leaving well enough alone.
The barrels need another angle on the lead in of the barrel. Kind of like a double chamfer if you will. That way the pellet transitions from the breech to the barrel smoothly instead of a step there.
And it not good to put a real big single chamfer in the barrel cause the bolt probe o-ring won’t seal right then. So the double chamfer works good if you don’t get carried away and make it to big.
Oh and you get any ice up your way? We got around a 1/4″ on everything right now. More to come later they say too. My steel spinners all had a coating of ice on them. First shot at them and it was a explosion of ice shrapnel flying everywhere. Pretty cool. 🙂
GF
We had ice a couple weeks back . Had to walk around on the stuff for a week before it went away .
Forecast for here is fairly warm for the next week . Rain, yes….ice, no. Suits me . Lower electric bill and no snow .
Agree on breech end stuff . Smooth transition without snags .
tt
TT
We had ice a couple weeks back also. Weather’s been crazy. Don’t care for this ice stuff. Would rather have snow any day. But after this weekend all next week is suppose to be in the upper 50’s which is fine by me. And yes the furnace needs a break. Have been doing the fireplace though too. Love going outside and smelling the wood burning.
And yep just one more step they could of done to the barrels and it would of made things so much nicer.
Maximus trigger modification,…..
After doing some research and finding the I had two 4-40 screws and light spring,… I decided to “go for it”.
On Friday I gave the trigger pull weight,… which averaged 5#, 14oz. over 5 shots.
Now it is averaging 2#, 13oz. over 5 shots. (Lyman trigger gauge).
I was told the gun would not fire with the safety button out, but mine fired just fine. Trigger pull averaged JUST 13oz. over 5 shots (with the safety out). Why? The spring that pushes the sear into the hammer. By having the safety out, that spring had less tension. The cocking “click” was also much lighter sounding. It passed the drop test just fine. The safety is back in as 13oz. is just a bit light.
The 2 screws modify the length of trigger pull (top screw) and the bottom screw acts as a trigger over travel stop. The spring was out a ball point pen and I cut maybe 1/4″ from the length and re-bent square. Plus the usual clean and re-lube with moly and silicone in all the right places. The heavy trigger pull is because of the spring that is directly behind the trigger (and) as stated above,… how much pressure is being exerted by the safety button/sear spring.
Easy to do. Spent about an hour but I could do it 15 minutes now easy from action out,.. to action back in.
Chris U
I was wondering how long it was going to take you before you done something with the trigger. 😉
And the reason yours still fires with out the safety button in is because the way you have the spring bent. And I’m guessing you mean the striker won’t catch the sear when you cock the gun. That’s what happens if there isn’t enough spring pressure to hold the sear up. I’m betting if you put the stock spring back in with out the safety the striker won’t catch the sear. Now if you bent that factory spring up a little where it rides under the sear then it would probably work just fine with out the safety button.
GF1,
The gun fired just fine with and without the safety button in, before and after modification. The only thing I did (not) measure was the pull with the stock trigger spring in and safety removed. From the data I collected today, it should have been lighter than with the safety in.
I am much happier and I will be trying it out real soon on the indoor range.
Chris U
So that means if the gun fired fine. That means it had to cock fine first.
So it was said that because the button was out of the gun it would be like the safety was on and the gun wouldn’t fire when the trigger was pulled after it was cocked. Is that what you mean by they said it wouldn’t fire. Just trying to understand what was thought.
GF1,
I do not know. It was not explained. After being inside the trigger housing,…. what I can say is if that sear/safety spring was bent in more a closed position, then without the safety being in, the spring would not have enough pressure to push the sear up. Maybe mine is bent in a more open position? I don’t know. Just reporting on what mine did/is doing.
Chris U
Ok that’s what I was wondering about your spring though.
The more open it is the better the sear will catch the striker and the pull will be a little harder. The less it’s bent the less the sear will engage the striker and then it will have less trigger pull. That is if you can get the gun to cock.
If you get it light with the less bent spring pressure you have to watch for accidental firing of the gun. That’s what you should also test for.
Cock the gun and (DON’T) load a pellet. Then bump the butt of the gun on the floor and also give the gun a hit with the palm of your hand on each side to see if the gun discharges.
Got to watch play’n around with those triggers you know.
GF1,
Yep, I know. I did the bump test even when the trigger was at 13 oz.. But yes,… like you said,… it that sear won’t latch the you can’t cock the gun and you can’t fire the gun. So I suppose that is what they meant when they said that the gun won’t fire if the safety is out. A more accurate statement would be that you will not be able to cock the gun at all (hence, you can’t fire it either). Mine just turned out to not be that way.
Chris U
Just thought I would add in the bump test. You know as they say. Kids don’t try this at home unless you understand what could happen. You forget your disclaimer. 🙂
GF
How do you guys live with such brutally heavy trigger pulls ????
tt
TT
I can’t. I tryed the Maximus for a little bit with the factory stock on the gun.
I went back to no stock on the gun with the fully adjustable 2 stage Crosman 1720T trigger grip assembly and 1399 stock. It’s a excellent trigger.
Here read the discription. It tells about the trigger. Also click on the manual for more about how it adjusts.
/product/crosman-1720t-pcp-target-air-pistol?m=2705
TT,
I have not had much experience in playing with triggers, other than what guns I have. Most are 1-1 1/2#. The only thing I can offer is that I remember BB saying that if a trigger can break clean and consistent,…. then that will make up for a world of other sins. The Maximus does that. I am happy in that the pull was reduced in 1/2 with little time and no cost to me. Also, I got it for a nice, (cheap), go to woods walker and off hand plinker. I will not be spending another 100+ on it. For the purpose that I bought it for,… I am more than pleased.
Plus,… this thing is out shooting the TX and LGU indoors, easily,… without even trying too hard. I am talking making 1 small hole with 5 pellets and then,.. you do not even see the last 5 pellets making any change to the hole. You can chalk that up to me,.. or PCP vs Springers,…. or whatever,…. but that is what it is.
Chris
I was trying to yank GFs chain , but he didn’t bite .
tt
TT
I knew where you was going. Figured it would be just as well if I explained what I did to my Maximus.
And when you do get some guns with good trigger’s they definitely will spoil ya.
And like Chris said though. Even with the factory trigger the Maximus is a good shooter. It just don’t have that precise trigger feel like a good trigger has.
Chris U
I don’t know if this will post in the right place. It’s suppose to be down where you replied to TT about your 5-10 shot indoor group.
I think when you get your Maximus outside your are going to be most happy. That’s how mine shoots at outside distances. It’s like the pellet is on a wire attached to the target. The pellets just keep going to the same place. I have already said it to many times. But that’s really how good mine shoots.
GF1,
Well,… let’s hope so. I am very impressed so far. Now with the trigger lighter,.. all the more. It says something when it out shoots a TX and LGU. Sure,.. PCP vs Springers,… but still. Groups do not get any better the further out you get,.. so things look promising.
That LGU still out shoots the TX on a consistent basis. I still can not believe you got rid of that thing.
Chris U
I have done strange things throughout time.
It’s ok with me I suppose. At least I got to exsperiance it. And another came along to take its place to try out.
I like shooting different guns is my problem. Just can’t afford to keep buying. So some go at certain times. It all works out. 🙂
I was thinking,… can I load/chamber a pellet in the Maximus and then de-cock it? Well first, it can not be done unless fully cocked. So,.. cock, load, chamber pellet (and then) pull back on bolt again, and while holding bolt pressure,.. pull the trigger while allowing the bolt to slowly come back forward.
I figured the hammer spring is susceptible to fatigue just like in a springer,… so this way,… it is loaded (no pellet fumble),… and when target is spotted,…. just cock and shoot.
Now many of you may go DUH!,… well of course you can! I had never heard it discussed with PCP’s,… so I thought that I would just pass it on. This would be for single shots,… not magazine/clip fed.
Chris U
It can be done with the Marauder to. Just take the mag out when the bolt is back. But like you said with the Maximus. There is that pellet still in the barrel.
I don’t think I would get in the practice of decocking the gun though just cause your walking in the woods. And how long do you think it will be till you see a sqerrial when you get in the woods. I myself don’t like to walk around with the bolt cocked either. So for the most part I don’t load a pellet in my single shot guns or magizine guns like the Marauder till I’m ready to take the shot.
Why load. Do you think the sqerrial will run and you won’t have time for the shot. Most of the time a sqerrial will stay quiet and still up in the tree and try to hide from ya. They are nice unmoving targets.
Oh and the 1720T, 1377/22, 2240, Marauder pistol and so on with that design can be decocked like you mentioned.
GF1,
Why load? One less step for a shot and no spring fatigue. You are right,… they do try to hide. I love it when they move around to the other side of the tree and then “peek” out at you. I plan to have it ready bench side and use it if I see something to my other 330 degrees. It is just an idea,… one which I plan to employ.
Chris U
A routine is ok to have. Just as long as you don’t forget to get that pellet out of the barrel before the gun is put away. A double load is one thing. But what could be dangerous is if you forget the pellets in the barrel. Then get the gun out at another time. Then think your dry firing the gun for some reason. But you end up putting a hole through something.
But I’m sure you got the plan figured out as you said.
GF1,
Yup,…. safety first. A gun never comes in the house loaded or put away loaded. No reason to do the pre-chamber bit in the house. No kids around, just me. If so, the ammo and guns would be separate and the guns would be trigger locked. I do not have a gun safe.
Chris U
Just say’n. You know how it is with accidents. Most of the time it’s from being in a hurry or forgetting to do something. Just to easy to mess up.
Even when we bird hunted with shot guns we never had the gun cocked and ready to fire. Seen to many people trip over a branch or slip and a bunch more things when out hunting. A loaded gun is not a good thing. It really don’t take me long at all to get a pellet out of my belt pellet pouch and cock and load the gun then aim and shoot. If I’m in that much of a hurry to take a shot I probably shouldn’t be taking it.
GF1,
Got it. All good and wise advice.
Check out these new products that are supposed to be at the Shot Show. Some of you may have seen them,… but for those that have not,…. an easy link. Those expanding pellets look flat out wicked!!! Probably don’t shoot worth a darn,… but wow.
https://hardairmagazine.com/news/11-amazing-new-umarex-products-launched-2017-shot-show/
Chris U
Boy your just full of info today.
The 700fpe 50 caliber air gun is cool. As well as the 70 shot pcp for $300. And those exspanding pellets have a similar shape as my favorite JSB 10.34 grn. pellets. Will have to try some for the fun of it. And yes love full auto air guns. Can’t wait to hear more about it too.
Now what will BB be able to report on new from the Shot Show. Probably alot more actually from what I have seen in his blog from the past shows. We shall see. Bet there will be some interesting stuff. 🙂
GF1,
The “tide” seems to be turning on giving us consumers what we want. Heck,… B.B.’s report might be a 3-4 parter,… and that might be assuming that he includes 10 items per report. Then he will have all of his “kids” (us) wanting him to test this and that,…. and it starts all over again for 2017. A cool time to be into air gunning.
Chris U
Yep all true. And always ready to hear what he reports about Shot Show. I think this will be a interesting year. Can’t wait.
Chris,
It will be at least a 4-parter. I was at the Sig range today and tomorrow I’m at the Media Day ranges. Tuesday’s report will cover that.
B.B.
B.B. What do you mean when you say ” decrease the twist ratio” and how can I determine the twist rate of my many air guns?
Halfstep,
A smaller ration means the bullet spins faster at a given velocity. 1:10″ is faster than 1:15″.
Your airguns are probably all 1:16″, unless they are big bores.
B.B.
B.B. Thanks for the quick response. If all are 1:16 does that mean all guns of a given velocity should be loaded with a pellet of a particular length or is that a twist that stabilizes all typical pellet lengths across the full range of air gun velocities that one might encounter. I specifically would like to know if you would recommend short pellets at the slower pistol velocities. Do pistol barrels have a smaller twist ratio to get more spin at a lower velocity? Probably not of interest to many so if you are inclined to answer wait until after SHOT. You have plenty on your plate as is.
Halfstep,
What is means is the twist ratio doesn’t mean as much with a pellet as with a bullet. Here is a test I did on that.
/blog/2013/07/how-does-rifling-twist-rate-affect-velocity-andor-accuracy-part-13/
B.B.
B.B. Thanks again and I’m sorry I’m taking your time on subjects covered but I’m new to this forum and read your work and the comments for hours nearly every day [ recently retired ;0) ] I’m still waaaayyyy behind on your articles (or should I say “tomes of articles”) Promise I’ll be up to speed eventually and will read this test right away.