by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
My new Sheridan Supergrade is in fantastic condition, despite the wood check at the butt.
The cheekpiece makes the Supergrade stand out!
This report covers:
- The test
- JSB Exact
- Crosman Premier
- Sheridan Cylindricals
- Predator Polymag
- Crosman Premiers
- H&N Baracuda
- H&N Field Target Trophy
- Evaluation so far
- 10-shot group
- Summary
- 22 caliber club
Today I moved back to 25 yards to test the Sheridan Supergrade. There were also a couple extra tests readers asked me to do and they are included in this report.
The test
I shot with the rifle rested on a sandbag. I pumped the rifle 5 times for every shot in today’s report. I also wore my reading glasses to make the front sight as sharp as possible. The bullseye became a little fuzzier than usual, but I think you are going to see that it didn’t matter.
JSB Exact
The first pellet I shot was the one I expected to be the best — the JSB Exact. The first shot went into the top of the bull, so I settled down and did not look again until I went down to change the target. Five shots went into 0.889-inches. Four of those shots are in a much tighter 0.415-inches. I won’t call the first shot a flier, but when you see the other targets I think you will agree there was probably a small sighting error for that shot.
Five JSB Exact pellets went into 0.889-inches at 25 yards, with the last 4 going into 0.415-inches. I think the first shot in the black was a small sighting error.
Crosman Premier
Next up were the now-vintage Crosman Premiers I have saved. After confirming the first shot was on paper I settled down again and shot the other 4. Once again I didn’t look at the group until I went to the pellet trap to change targets. I was stunned to see 5 pellets had grouped in 0.397-inches at 25 yards! This group is a little more to the left of center than the first one, but I’ll take it!
Five Crosman Premiers made this 0.397-inch group at 25 yards!
Sheridan Cylindricals
Now it was time to address a reader request. 1stblue asked me this.
I wonder if the cylindrical ammo would do better if it were sorted by weight and pellet gauged? Maybe just do 20 or so. Also, pure lead might be a better material choice now, considering advances in manufacturing tech. They might do better at longer ranges? It would be nice if there were more choices in non diablo style. I haven’t fired my Sheridan co2 pistol since the 80’s or or 90’s. I may just get some new .20 cal. pellets. Have a nice day folks! R
So I pulled out my .20 caliber Pelletgage that reader JerryC was kind enough to give me and I started sorting. However, there was a snag. The largest hole in the .20 caliber gage I have is 5.11mm and every pellet refused to pass through. So I couldn’t gage the pellets.
But I did sort them by weight. The vintage Sheridan Cylindricals I have range from 14.8 grains to 15.2 grains. I sorted until I had 7 that weighed exactly 15 grains. So, I did some sorting, but not everything that was requested.
The results were what I expected. Though I conducted this test exactly like the first two, when it was over 5 pellets had landed in a scattered group that measures 1.432-inches between centers. These vintage pellets simply do not measure up to today’s premium pellets.
Even when sorted by weight, five Sheridan Cylindrical pellets went into 1.432-inches at 25 yards.
Predator Polymag
Here is the second thing I promised a reader. I forgot to include the Predator Polymag pellet in the previous test at 10 meters. It was just an oversight. But today we will see how they do at 25 yards.
They do very well! In fact, they were the most accurate pellet in the 5-shot test. Five pellets made a group that measures 0.316-inches between centers at 25 yards. Almost time for the trime!
Five Predator Polymag pellets went into 0.316-inches at 25 yards. This is the best 5-shot group of the test.
H&N Baracuda
The next pellet I tested was the H&N Baracuda. Five went into 0.603-inches at 25 yards. While that’s very good, it isn’t up to the standards of the Premiers and Predators.
Five H&N Baracuda pellets went into 0.602-inches at 25 yards.
H&N Field Target Trophy
The final pellet I tested with 5 shots groups was the H&N Field Target Trophy. They gave a strange J-shaped group that measures 0.611-inches between centers.
The Supergrade put 5 H&N Field Target Trophy pellets into a 0.611-inch group at 25 yards.
Evaluation so far
This Supergrade is rocking! A 0.316-inch group at 25 yards is nothing to sneeze at. And Premiers are nearly as small. Now it’s time to see what can be done with 10 shots.
10-shot group
I chose the Predator Polymag for the 10-shot group. The Crosman Premier would have been good, as well. Every shot got the same five pumps.
Ten shots went into 0.898-inches at 25 yards, with 9 in 0.547-inches. Not bad for a multi-pump.
Ten Predator Polymags went into 0.898-inches at 25 yards.
Summary
This will be the final report on this Sheridan Supergrade. In it I have shown you how to boost velocity, adjust the trigger and maintain the valve. We have looked into the owner’s manual that everyone agrees is much better than the manuals of today.
With each passing year the Supergrade reveals more of its original glory, as time exposes the genius of its design. It was too expensive for its day and it’s still too expensive today, which is how all the fine classic airguns mature.
22-caliber club
I see that Pyramyd AIR has a new program they are calling the .22 caliber club, where designated products will ship out in 22 hours from the order or you will get $5 in Bullseye Bucks. I shop online a lot and this is the first program I’ve seen like this. Am I missing something, or is this new?
BB
Of all the Supergrades you have had is this one the most accurate or is this the norm for these guns?
Very nice shooting is all I can say. I’m impressed.
GF1,
Yes, this is the most accurate and the most powerful.
B.B.
B.B.,
I think you should christen this one the “Super-Dooper Grade.” Well, maybe not. That does sound a little undignified. ;^) “Ex20caliber?”
But you have to admit, this one is THE one. Let this one get away, and it will surely be one of those you regret no longer having. Perhaps this Supergrade and your Diana Model 27 deserve a special place of honor beside each other?
Michael
Michael,
That’s a good idea!
B.B.
B.B.,
I was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy shown by the Supergrade. How I wish that the Seneca would be exhibiting similar accuracy when you test it. Looking at the construction of the Supergrade in contrast with the 39x the attachment of the barrel might also have bearing on the accuracy you have shown. Regarding the oversize Sheridan Cylindrical pellets were they more difficult to chamber than the modern pellets?
Siraniko
PS: Section10-shot group, First paragraph, Last sentence: Every shot got the samne (same) five pumps.
BB
Also to me looking at most of the tighter groups. It looks like you have 1-2 shots hitting right and the other shots to the left and a bit higher than those other 2 shots.
I’m thinking that’s your hold or trigger finger moving the fun a bit.
Moving the (gun). Not moving the (fun).
GF1,
The gun is the fun! 🙂
B.B.
DING! :^)
🙂
GF1,
It has been my experience that it does not take much with some funs. 😉
🙂
BB and Fellow Airgunners
I’m was astonished to see the Predator Polymags do so well in the Supergrade. They also perform consistently well in all my .20 cal Weihrauchs (HW80-HW98-HW45), however I would have never expected a group as small as .316 in. Especially with iron sights at 25 yards. I’m sure the person aiming, and pulling the trigger had something to say about that. The JSB Exacts, and H+N Barracudas almost always give me the tightest, most consistent groups in my HW80, and HW98, while the discontinued 10.96 grain Beeman Silver Stings (pointed), and 11.42 grain Beeman FTS Double Gold shine equally well with my HW45 Silver Star. I hope the companies that still make the last few .20 cal pellets continue to do so. It would be a shame to see such a versatile caliber go the way of the Dodo.
Ciao
Titus
Hi Titus,
Being only two thousands of an inch smaller than a standard .22 pellet, I have always viewed the .20 caliber as a marketing ploy rather than a viable caliber standing on its own merits.
You have some fine Weihrauchs in .20 and describe the caliber as being versatile. Would you mind sharing some of your experience with the .20 as I may need to adjust my opinion.
Thanks,
Hank
Hank
The .20 caliber is basically .020″ smaller than a .22 caliber. Not .002″ smaller.
A .22 caliber pellet would not even load in a .20 caliber gun. And a .20 caliber pellet would be loose in a .22 caliber gun.
OOPS!!! missed placed the decimal point! Need another coffee!!
Thanks GF1!
Hank
All good. 🙂
Hank
I could be wrong but I don’t think the .20 cal was a marketing ploy. Rather I think it may have been a manufacturer’s attempt to corner the market on pellets made for its guns and also control the quality of the ammo used in it.
It might have been much later used as a marketing ploy by some (read Dr. Beeman).
As an owner of two Sheridan bluestreaks, a Beeman R7, and an HW97 all in .20 cal, I will tell you the caliber has definite merit.
It’s just a shame the pellet choices are not as broad as the .177 or even .22 calibers. I have a few boxes of the Crosman .20 premiers left. I wish I had bought more, my Beemans love them!
SL,
Manufactures introducing proprietary formats into a market with existing standard formats rubs me the wrong way (severely) unless the new format is technologically superior.
You are the second today to positively comment about the .20 format. I can see the advantage of more energy for pest control and better wind performance over the .177 but what are the benefits over the .22? So far, price, availability (of ammo and rifles) and selection are strongly against the .20.
Would you mind sharing some of your thoughts on the merits of the .20… I am wondering if passing up the $10 Supergrade (many years ago) was a bad decision 🙂
Thanks,
Hank
Hank,
I think the benefits claims over a .22 was less drop/flatter shooting. Just like it was in the rimfire days of 5mm (.20) mag vs the .22 mag. I have never owned a .20 air gun, just .177 and .22. That said, I would like one.
Doc
Good point Doc,
The .20s are a bit lighter than the .22s and (especially) in terms of springers that would benefit the velocity/trajectory.
Not so much with PCPs which are usually shooting 850-950 or more fps across the .177 to .25 caliber range. Trajectories are pretty easy to dope out to 40-45 yards.
Hank
Hank
Doc nailed it.
I also hate it when manufacturers introduce proprietary formats (think pcp fill nipples) but sometimes when I’m done being mad I’ll take a closer look at the new format and realize it is an improvement and definitely has its place. You see this alot in the bicycle industry.
That being said…
PCP MANUFACTURERS: FOSTER FITTINGS ONLY!!!
SL,
Agree with you about the PCP industry standardizing on Foster fittings. Would make everyone’s life easier.
I added a Foster nipple to my Weihrauch fill probe so that I can switch it in and out easily. I just have to watch that I don’t misplace it somewhere 🙂
Would be an idea if the propriety fill probes were machined with the Foster quick disconnect male on the hose end. That way it could accommodate their special design needs and still be Foster compatible.
Hank
Hank,
What is the reason for something other than a male foster? I mean,.. is there some benefit to the other design’s that I am unaware of? Any basic answer will work,… even if it is,.. “I have no clue”. 😉
Chris,
The male foster works well if the fill point is at the end of the reservoir (which I think is a good location for it) but can be awkward if the fill point is in the forearm of the stock.
You need to have a large clearance around the filler to clip on the Foster female and get your fingers in to release it.
The 1/4″ diameter, 2″ long probe for my Weihrauchs can easily go anywhere on the gun by comparison.
Hank
Hank,
I don’t know if the SPA does it with all their PCPs or if Diana requested it, but my stormrider has the Foster male turned right onto the brass fill probe.
I have 2 guns that each use a different sized probe plus a gun with the male Foster and a double ended male Foster for hooking my SCBA tank to my compressor. To keep track of them I attached a small pill bottle to the carry handle of my SCBA tank and I just keep all but the one I’m using at the time in there. If you are a pumper you could probably find a spot on the pump to do the same thing. It was obvious to me that I was going to have to find a safe storage solution right away ’cause those probes are exactly the sort of kibble that my house likes to snack on. 🙂
Half
Half,
Machining the male Foster on the back of a propriety fill probe is an obvious thing to me but neither of my Weihrauchs nor my Walthers have it – they all thread directly on to a Hill pump hose (which is a nuisance).
First thing I did was to standardize everything – rifles, compressor, pump and tank are all Fosterized now 🙂
I keep all the loose parts on the dolly my scuba tank is mounted on so I don’t have to go searching for them.
Hank
BB
Wonderful shooting! I know that a peep rear sight is capable but a front post can be a problem for older eyes. We know it is critical to get that front post in focus even if the target is fuzzy. A globe front sight is much better for my eyes at 25 yards. Your rifle was rocking but so were you to get these results.
Your rifle’s accuracy may even be better than you. Results for 10 shot groups may be under 1/2 inch if a scope could be mounted. I’m not suggesting you do this. I detect that you like this Sheridan Supergrade with the original sights.
What about those Polymags!
Decksniper
Decksniper (and B.B.)
what is the difference in a globe sight? Is that where the front sight is encased by metal/plastic? So in a sense, would a “Marlin” or Winchester front sight that has the metal cover (can be removed) be considered a globe sight? Also when talking about peeps, I have the cheap peep on a couple my guns. But those target peeps, have the big “eye piece”. I assume those are more precise due to seeing them on target guns. Are they “harder” to use for old eyes? I always thought it would be neat, for my old eyes, to have a rear peep with the big eye piece to block out distractions (light or whatever) yet still have a larger opening so I could see.
Doc
Doc,
I’m pretty sure that a globe sight is technically a hooded front sight that has interchangable elements that are stamped from sheetmetal. They can be circles that fit perfectly around the bullseye of a 10 meter target or a circle that is big enough to allow a tiny amount to be visible all around the bull. Some are a post that comes to a taper and is topped with a bead.
Here are some others.
Half
Halfstep,
Very interesting. The only peep I have is the 499. It is my indoor plinker at 24′. (souped up with a Red Ryder spring,… +150 fps). I took one of the ring sights and found a (very) small washer that was a “press fit” and I love it. I do ring binder/paper reinforcement stickers and there is just a wee bit of light around the OD of the sticker at that range. I color them black. It is really almost a no-miss set up if I do not pull a shot.
It would be fun to play with all of the options in your picture. I think that the cross-hairs would be the first one that I would have to try.
Chris,
The front sight for my FWB 603 is an acrylic (Lexan? Plexiglass?) disk with a chamfered hole in the middle. Cool design because you can see the target (with a ring around it) through the clear disk and the hole.
Would be pretty easy to make a custom insert for your reinforcement grommets. The size of the hole could be drilled to suit the target and size of the chamfer dictates the width of the ring around the hole.
Have a great weekend eh!
Hank
Hank,
I remember those clear sights now. I had forgotten about them. Nice concept.
The ring binder reinforcement stickers are my (target), not part of the sighting system,.. unless I misunderstood your comment.
Chris
Sorry, was not clear.
Meant that it would be easy to make a custom sight to suit your ring binder reinforcement sticker target and the fixed range you are shooting at indoors.
Hank
Half,
thanks for the pic. I have had a break barrel with a globe front sight, but the posts/element wasn’t changeable. The “triangle” shaped posts was “made” into it.
Doc
Doc
Halfstep replied with a good picture of many front globe sight insert choices. I prefer the circular ones at 25 yards because they allow me to center a bull that I can barely see without it. Some shooters may prefer other inserts. The rear peep sight is a must for me at that distance. I can still do okay at 10 meters with a front post thanks to cataract surgery but not at 25 yards. My Mauser 98K and Springfield 1903 both have removable hoods over the front sights. They protect the front sight and may help get a sight picture for quick shots but for me at least these and the hoods you mention may not help that much for target shooting. The rubber cup extensions do help block unwanted glare.
Decksniper
Decksniper,
I also feel the “hoods” over the front sights of my guns hinder me from a fast shot. I keep them off my Marlin bolt and my Winchester 92 lever. Just me. I would like to try the rubber cup ext. on a peep. Seems like it would help with a clearer shot.
Doc
Doc
UTG rubber scope eyeshade is available for about $13 and adjusts for different sizes. Just be sure there is a way on your rear peep to attach it.
Decksniper
Doc,
The UTG eye cup that Decksniper recommended is quite long. It is too stiff too. I would guess 6 1/2″ long. Tube diameter is close to 1 7/8″. I have one on my M-rod and have it on a 4-16×56 UTG scope. I ended up removing about 2 1/2″ from the clamp end. I have 4 rings left with the clamp on the 4th ring. I then modified the eye cup quite extensively to fit my eye, nose and cheek. It took about 2 hours of very careful cutting and fitting.
It is perfect now. When I come down on it, there is very light contact all the way around without flexing any of it. I can recommend it but don’t figure on just putting it on and using it. There does not seem to be a whole lot out there for add on eye cups. Anything that you do to reduce that gap will be beneficial and if you get it perfect,… well then,.. that is perfect! 😉
As a test,.. you could fashion up a light cardboard tube and try that first. I think you find it to be a step in the right direction.
Here it is,
/product/utg-rubber-scope-eyeshade-for-36-40-41-5-43mm-eyepiece?a=5118
Fine shooting B.B.!
When I am shooting unsorted pellets and there is a sub-group with a couple of satellites I tend to believe the sub-group and write-off the other hits as non-conformists or shooter error.
I am impressed with the Polymag group – always thought of them as being gimmicky. It is difficult enough to swage an accurate pellet without the complexity of inserting another component. They do have a nice long aspect-ratio which would help longitudinal stability. I might invest in a tin and do some sorting/testing to see for myself.
Happy Friday all!!
Hank
But look at the difference that 10 shots made with the poly mags verses the 5 shot group.
Those 5 extra shots did open up the group. As BB usually points out about the more shots taken the more the group will grow.
Gunfun1,
The group spread does grow as the round count increases, as you have pointed out, but only up to a point thereafter the group becomes stable. I have shot 40 shot groups at 100M (indoor) with a match grade AR15, Vortex Spitfire 3X optic and had all the rounds stay within 1.4″ ctc. I feel pretty good about that group at my current dvanced age. With my .308 DAQ LA I was able to get a session up to 20 shots at which point the group had settled to remaining within 2.75″ at 80M. That took filling after every shot (since I don’t use a tethered regulator) and a great deal of patience and attention to detail. One of those details I must admit I learned late in life from B.B.; and that is…to not shoot out your point of aim up until that revelatation I used my cross hair arms to stay on PoA (Point of Aim) or just shot one round per bull.
shootski
Shootski
I have seen the same with the different air guns I have owned. And with my .22 rimfire guns also with group size and how many shots you make in that group.
And yep that is the only true way to get accurate group sizing. I use 1/2 mildot scopes. So what I usually do is aim a 1/2 mildot under or over at the target bullseye.
Thank you for that fine display of shooting prowess with iron sights!
When the chips are down, that’s the core technology we depend on,
and I suppose its ok to put the cylindricals to bed for good, but the rifle
is a beauty and a “keeper”. R
P.S. I want to sell my house and move to the country, allot;)
1stblue
I think you would be most happy if you did move to the country. I grew up on a farm as a kid. Then lived in town when I got out my own. Missed every bit of living in the country.
Finally got a place out in the country going on about 4 years now and me and the family love it. Nobody bothering you, quiet, the wildlife that routinely makes their way through the yard. And of course the shoot’n, 4 wheel’n and fish’n. 🙂
Hey guys, a friend of mine asked me to look at his Benjamin Regal NP. His complaint is that it is not very accurate. He sent the Daisy pellets he was using with it, and I tried a few and got about an 8″ group at 18 yards. The only other 177 pellets I had was some pointed crosmans that gave me a (rushed) 10 shot group of about 3″. It was getting dark, so I gave up for the night. I think all he really needs is the right pellet and the artillery hold. My question is, what pellets should I get to try out? 177 isn’t my thing, so I would like to find a handful of good candidates for this gun and try to find one for him. Any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Captain Bravo,
Check out .177 pellet samplers. PA, IIRC, has them as well as other shops. Haven’t bought any in years so don’t know how wide of a selection of brands/pllts you will find.
hth,
shootski
Captain Bravo
I would try some JSB 8.4 and 10.34 grain pellets. The JSB’s are quality pellets and they usually shoot good in most guns I have used them in.
But here’s the thing about this situation. You never really know till you try different pellets. What works in one gun might not work in another.
Shootski and Gunfun1,
I wasn’t sure how heavy I should go with this gun. I’ve read several places not to use too light a pellet with the higher powered springers. I really wanted some of the samplers that Shootski mentioned, but many of them are out of stock a lot of places.
So, I’ve got RWS 8.3s, Crosman 10.5s, H&N 10.65s, JSB 8.4s and 10.34s in my Pyramyd cart. Do you see any concerns with those?
Thanks.
CB
Captain Bravo
I have used all those pellets you mentioned in the past with good luck on different guns. I would say make a order with what’s in your cart if your not concerned with cost. And it is always nice to have different types of pellets around for just in case purposes like now.
I wouldn’t say that cost is not a concern, but I would like to help get this gun figured out. And, if I have 177 pellets on hand, I may just keep my eyes open for a 177 rifle of my own. Thanks for the advice
Captain Bravo.
No problem.
Gunfun1
I am just wondering if you have tried the JSB Match Exact Express 7.87 gr pellet. My FWB 300S prefers these over the 8.4 and 10.34 gr you list above. Unlike you and your wonderful playground I am limited to 25 yards so that is a factor. I’m guessing the 10.34 gr is more stable at 50 yards. The JSB Express pellet is also the best I have found for my LGV Olympia, HW 30S, 2400KT, 1300KT and Avanti 753S; all when shooting for score at 25 yards.
Decksniper
Decksniper
My FWB 300 definitely works better with heavier pellets than lighter pellets.
My 300 is modified. The spring and piston seal is different than stock.
That means more velocity.
Oh and my HW30s even shoots better with JSB 10.34’s.
One of the things it’s about is wind. I always have better luck with heavier pellets in the wind.
Oh and no I haven’t tryed the lighter 7.8 JSB’s. So you may be very well right. But I can say the JSB 10.34’s are better than the JSB 8.4’s in my 300. But remember. I usually shoot at 20 yards and out. And most of my shots are at 30 to 60 yards. So saying that. Velocity and weight usually helps with me and this gun.
Captain,
8″ group at 18 yards… sounds like something is loose.
A scope (if present) can scatter pellets all over the place if it is adjusted too far off the optical center and the inner tube is not held firm by the spring.
Suggest that you check that all the screws are tight and that the barrel is clean. Season the barrel with a few shots before evaluating pellets/accuracy.
Hank
Hank,
I guess you’ve never had the displeasure of shooting Daisy pellets. Trust me when I say they can make the best gun/scope combo shoot like a shotgun. 😉
Half
Vana2 and Halfstep,
I expected nothing out of the Daisy pellets and they pretty much delivered. In thinking back though, part of that may have been me not fully seating the pellets. They fit very tight, so tight that I really had to push to get them seated. Some of them may have been sticking out out a little and had the skirts deformed when I closed the barrel. To give them a fair shake, I should take a pen or something and make sure they are fully seated to see of they can do better. But the Crosmans did so much better with less effort on getting them seated that I am not sure it is worth it.
I did go over it and tightened everything before shooting it, which was one reason I was so late getting out there. I really think some different pellets and some training on the artillery hold and he will be much happier with this gun.
Thanks for the advice.
Halfstep
What guns have you tryed the Daisy wadcutters in?
Oh wait a minute. Captain Bravo said Daisy pellets. He didn’t say what kind.
What Daisy pellets have you tryed also?
I have used the wadcutters and pointed with good luck out to 30 yards.
And thinking about that. What distance was you shooting the Daisy pellets at. Just curious. Maybe you could do up one of your graphs and compare them to other pellets in the same gun.
GF1,
I shoot Daisy Wadcutters, Hollowpoints and Pointed out of any gun I buy when I’m testing them for accuracy. That’s the only reason I own any of those pellets. Those guns have included a RWS 52, 2 Daisy CMP 853s, 2 P17s, Several Crosman and Gamo breakbarrels, Gamo Coyote, 2 Browning Buckmark spring pistols, a Daisy 777, Daisy 717, an FWB 124 and others. In other words, a bunch of guns.
As for posting a chart, I probably have already posted a couple in the past. I make a chart for each gun with 40 or more pellets and looking back on the ones for my .177 guns just now, I found that in the spot where I record the 12 yard, 10 shot group size, for the three different Daisy pellets I mostly just recorded the word “SUX” I remember many times that I just quit shooting them after 5 or 6 shots because they grouped so poorly that there was no point in continuing.
I did see, when checking just now that the Hollowpoints grouped .403″ in one of my CMP 853s at 12 yards but Ruger Hollowpoints did .170″ in the same gun so that’s what I stocked up on.
I also remember that the Hollowpoints were close enough to some other pellets in my grandson’s Ruger Explorer that I would buy them for that gun if I didn’t have so many other cheap pellets already.
I bought about 20 belt packs of the Wadcutters from Academy Sports because they used a picture of the old Daisy Quicksilvers in their online copy. Those are obsolete but they shoot really well out of my Crosman Mark II. Not so with the Precision Max.
I know you like ’em in your Wildfire and 1077 but I get better results with RWS Basics,Hobbies and Crosman Precision Competition Wadcutters and Hunting Pointed.
I will keep trying to find a place for them but no joy so far, and that’s a bummer because I think they may be the cheapest .177 pellet out there.
Half
Halfstep
How about that. You didn’t list one gun that I have.
Here’s the guns that I have that they work good in out to 25-30 yards.
1077, WildFire, older smooth bore 760, Colt Python pellet pistol, HW30s, FWB 300 and the older Benjamin pump pistol I refound a little while back.
Maybe get you the guns I just listed and give them a try and see what happens. Oh and I would of thought at least your 124 would of shot them good. But as it goes pellets do surprising things in different guns.
GF1,
Where I said you like ’em in your Wildfire and 1077, I was trying to say that in my 2 Wildfires and 3 1077s those other pellets I listed did better. But you’re right, I don’t own any of the other guns you listed.
Cheap pellets are all I test in some of my guns, like the Wildfires and the 1077s, just because I know I’d never shoot really expensive ones out of ’em. So when I say I shoot 40 pellets out of “all my guns”, “most of my guns” would really be more accurate.
I wouldn’t mind owning a FWB 300 or the two different length Pythons but I won’t be gettin’ ’em just to try out Daisy’s crappy pellets in. Well, maybe the Pythons. Those Daisies weren’t the best out of your FWB, were they?
I have a few guns that I haven’t ever run accuracy tests on because I got them back when we didn’t have the choices we have now and I haven’t shot ’em in years. I have a Crosman A.I.R. 17, a 1377, a Model 73 and a Model 262. Maybe they will be “the Ones” that test good with Daisies. I think I’ll put that on my “To Do” list.
Half
Halfstep
Why would you think the Daisy wadcutters would be the best out of my FWB 300?
Of course not. The JSB 10.34’s are the best out of my 300. But the Daisy wadcutters are definitely better out of my FWB 300 than they are out of the other guns. Wonder why that is?
GF1,
It was a question. I would have been surprised if you said yes, but when you mentioned the 300 I thought they might be, so I asked. I watched Joe W. Rhea on YouTube shoot JSB pellets loaded backwards out of a 300 and he got better groups that way than he did shooting Daisies the right way out of it. 5 JSBs backwards grouped about an inch at 40 yards while the 6 Daisies went about 9 inches loaded straight. He feels about like I do about ’em, I guess.
Half
Halfstep
At least he’s got a gun and I have a gun and tryed them.
You know what I’m going to say next?
It ain’t going to be nothing about what someone did. It’s going to be about what I did. What it is going to be about though is get you a gun and tell the results from your gun. Not what you seen or heard. And even if you do what would that have to do with my results. Nothing.
GF1,
I listed 20 guns that I shot them out of . How many do I have to try them out of before it will be okay with you for me to express an opinion on them to Vana2 and Captain Bravo, which is all I was trying to do.
Half
Halfstep
Why are you worried about if it’s ok with me what you express.
I guess where I’m going is you say they shoot like crap. So I say show me some group’s out of the guns you listed above you shot them in.
I want to see what you think is crappy groups with the Daisy pellets and your guns. You gave some group sizes of other pellets. But nothing on the Daisy’s. And I rightly don’t care what kind of groups you got. I just want you see for myself what your groups look like.
As they say in Missouri. Show Me.
Halfstep,
See the bottom in about 5 minutes. Out of room.
Yes. The Daisy pellets are pretty awful.
With my limited experience 8″ at 18yds is not a pellet issue even the lockup would likely give an oval and a scope would have to be trashed to get that varied. Without seeing it first hand i am betting piston seal going bad and gone and if a scope is involved STOP and remove it or it will be trashed if it has not been damaged yet. I got a new rifle years ago started off doing sub 1″ groups @ 35yds and by the 3rd tin of 200 [a .25] it was all going south 4″ groups an kick. An imperfection in the breech which coupled with the Hatsan factory breech gaskets are softer than they should be led to a self destructing piston seal.
What is she shot cycle like and if its violent its likely a trashed piston seal. Also check the breech and for good measure the crown. Oh and don’t forget to check the screws holding the action to the stock.So at the risk of coming off condescending every rifle new or new to you you should inspect from end to end. I am error prone, for instance the first thing i should have mentioned is checking that the screws are tight.
B.B.,
maybe you’ve already done it and I’ve missed it. Would you ever consider doing a blog on open sights? There are so many different kinds, then different types within those styles. Just a thought. I know you are super busy. Maybe someday in the future if you ever get caught up. (See my comment to Vana2 (Hank) above.
Doc
Doc,
I typed open sights into the Search box and got these.
/blog/2016/03/some-thoughts-on-open-sights/
/blog/2012/03/learning-to-shoot-with-open-sights-part-5/
/blog/2011/04/my-eyes-are-too-bad-to-use-open-sights/
B.B.
To say that gun is a keeper is a major understatement! That thing with you at the trigger shoots good for any air rifle. For a multi pump it shoots up to another level. A multi pump that could shoot birds or rats at 25 yards with consistency. And you have done it using the open sights to boot!
Now we know it can be done. We just need the airguns that will do it. I suppose there may be a few select Benjamin 392’s or 397’s that might do it, but not the standard off the shelf ones. My multi pumpers won’t group like that. The farthest safe airgun backstop I have shooting off the table I use is about 17 yards. Seems like the best I’ve done at that distance is around 3/4″, and I can’t get that every time. I only shoot the less expensive pellets. Mostly RWS and Crosman. I can see that I should blow my budget and but a tin of the Polymags in .177 and .22.
I say BRAVO!! to you, and challenge air gun makers to put more effort into their line of multi pumpers with accuracy in mind. The jury is still out on the new Dragonfly.
By the way, I live near the volcano action in Leilani Estates on the big island of Hawaii. I’m about 10-12 miles from the burning houses. Formerly from Washington State near Seattle, we moved here in 2011.
Birdmove,
I wondered. I knew you were from Hawaii, but could not remember what island. Wow!,… that is too close for comfort. I wish you the very, very best on avoiding any sort of loss. One thing for sure,.. things will be looking a bit different after it is all over. (Which I hope is sooner, rather than later).
Yeah, it’s never dull living near the most active volcano in the world. The big island is constantly getting bigger. I like it best when the lava just flows to the sea adding new land, and not destroying peoples houses.
Birdmove
I bet that gets kind of crazy living so close to it. Seen some different pictures of it.
B.B.,
Fine, fine shooting. The polymags surprised me. They apparently struck a nice front/rear balance, at least in .20 caliber. I have shot the metal mags in .22. They did not win out in testing. Everything being the same, the plastic would be lighter than the metal and have a different front/rear weight ratio. I may have to try some polys.
Chris
Chris
Speaking of pellets. I been shooting some of the H&N hollow point pellets out of my .25 Condor SS. And they are grouping as well as the Baracudas and JSB 33.95’s.
GF1,
What?,… no Daisy pellets? 😉 That is good that it is not super pellet picky.
Chris
If Daisy made a .25 caliber wadcutter I would sure try it.
Do you know how much energy transfer it would have. That heavy big diameter flat head shooting at 950 fps. Would definitely make a nice pop when it hit.
I been saying for a long time now I wish someone would make a .25 caliber wadcutter. And don’t bring up the distance at how good it will be or won’t be. You just never know. Even if it was 30-50 yards at a 1-1/2″ I would be happy.
You know they make some .22 wadcutters. You should try some in your Maximus. I use to shoot them in my .22 Discovery I had. Definitely thumpers.
GF1,
Yup,.. they would pack a wallop! For high priced .25’s,… I would at least want consistent head size and weight. I would have to see some (serious) data to see if they would even come close in comparing. In .177 or .22,… let alone a .25. I would not ever buy them without seeing that first.
For the average critter getter range my Maximus is used for, a wad cutter may do well but it would at least be a premium pellet. Don’t just knock them out of the tree,… knock them 2 trees over! 😉
Chris
And where would you get that data from to see how the wadcutters do? Let’s see. Get some for yourself and test them. 😉
Chris,
Any discussion of Polymags (and similar designs) gets me thinking. (Just spouting off (not directed AT you 🙂 )…
I still think that they are putting the pointy-thingie on the wrong end of the pellet.
IMHO the point isn’t going to help ballistics at typical pellet velocities and you don’t need a point to aid penetration. If someone is very under gunned for what they are shooting at, having a pointed pellet isn’t going to help – e.g. nobody should try to kill a raccoon with a 7fpe .177.
The drag helps stabilize a pellet but too much is not a good thing for range and trajectory. Would like to see a domed head (weight forward) design with a plastic cone to reduce the drag… Think I just added another project to my list 🙂
Anyway, done ranting. Have a good one!
Hank
Hank
Sounds to me like you just described a centfire rifle bullet.
GF1,
Why couldn’t a boat tail bullet be used? If it is all lead, sized right, high enough fps and the grooves and lands provided a 100% seal,…. why not? No traditional skirt needed.
Chris
Yep exactly on the shape. That’s what I was getting at.
But that’s the next problem. Firearm bullets are usually a different diameter than the small bore air gun sizes. By small bore air guns I mean .177, .22 and 25 caliber. And even some of the .30, .35 caliber air guns.
And then there would probably be a problem with the air seal at the back of the bullet. A firearm has a lot of pressure behind the bullet when it fires. It don’t necessarily seal the back of a bullet like a air gun pellet does. A firearm bullets relies on the big pressure charge to push the bullet.
But anyway. I’m going to post a couple pictures in a few about my new can plinking holder I made. And it even included coat hangers to make. 🙂
GF1,
To me,… soft lead, re-sized to air gun OD,… it should work. If the rifling seals, then no need for a skirt. Your Condor ( .25?) makes great power. Keep the bullet 34-45 grain and it just might work. I would check re-loading supply sites for ammo/bullets. You could make a OD re-sizer.
Interesting job on the can holder/target/thingy. 😉
Chris,
Full length contact between a bullet and the rifling might be too much drag for an air gun.
Think that a ring at front and back to engage the rifling might be better.
Hank
Hank,
Good point. Some calculations would have to be done to see what the difference is between a powder force and a PCP force,.. even a maximum PCP force.. If the PCP force is less, then that reinforces your point.
Chris
For the most part the air gun would have less force than the firearm.
Maybe someone can post some info on firearm pressure. Like how much pressure is be hind a bullet in a given round.
GF
Black powder is supposed to be most efficient at about 7,000 psi. Some smokeless calibers run up to 50,000 psi .
You gonna do what with air ?
tt
Chris
Need to find something to back this. But I’m thinking a firearm has blow by in the rifling when the round is fired
In other words the bullet in a firearm has some. And I mean only some leeway in how it fits because pressure is so high.
It’s all a balance is what it comes down too.
And I’ll post a picture below in a minute of my MRKll design can plinkinking target.
GF1,
The bullet in a firearm UPSETS, or obturates into the groove and lands (as well as with airguns) to avoid the blowby of which you speak. in the case of a firearm round the case also OBTURATES to seal the chamber and thereby the breech/receiver. You may remember that B.B. in his discussions of Big Bores invartiably indicates that undersized bullets result in poor accuracy and recommends a slug that is at least 0.001″ oversized.
Do you remember if that oversized is the grooves or lands? My personal experience is to use the groove dimension since unlike in skirted pellets there is typically insufficient pressure to do the obturation. In firearms there is typically enough pressure and heat to obturte the slug into the lands as well as the groove.
Blowby in any barreled weapon causes inacuracy! My theory supported by many others thoughts and experiments is that the turbulence just in front of the muzzle plays havoc with the rounds path at the absolutely worst point in the external balistic regime.
Hope that helps!
To all the Mom’s: Happy Mother’s Day!
Now remember please; they won’t shoot their eyes out if you Moms teach them about safety first! Hmm! You will just need to learn to shoot if you don’t already!
shootski
Shootski
Anything that involves the way a projectile moves down the barrel will as you call it upset it’s flight. Be it a air gun or firearm.
And yes in front of the barrel with air pressure what ever way the power is generated can change the way a projectile fly’s.
Thank you for backing me up. I don’t know how many times I said this.
GF1,
I still have your back on the turbulence at the muzzel!
But understand, UPSET is a very specific term about the bullet in a firearm engaging the bore, it means the same thing as OBTURATE; bullets do not OBTURATE by force of gas pressure in airguns! Some might say they do, but I think even with a hollowed out tail that won’t happen. Pellet skirts OBTURATE if the skirt is not too stiff or the airgun is able to very quickly apply high pressure to the skirt; because as soon as the pellet starts to move down the bore it is invariably too late for pellet skirt expansion since the pressure behind the pellet is already dropping.
Internal balistics of airguns (defined as limited to inside the bore only) appear to be very different from that of firearms. It is an area that is mostly theoretical in borh airguns and firearms as most efforts to observe what happens inside the bore change what actually happens.
So in short: firearms that have poor OBTURATION (cause blowby or blow back) are likely going to be Safe Queens” since the won’t be interesting! Airguns may suffer a similar fate unless the shooter keeps looking for the pellet that works or makes a modfication(s) that fixes the issue.
Are we having FUN! I hope so!
shootski
Shootski
It all comes down to how the projectile hits the paper.
There will always be variables whatever the power charge and fit is.
Once you think you figure that out. Don’t be surprised if your mind gets changed.
And how much have we learned over time.
Shootski,
You obviously are much more schooled than I on the subject. I am 99% sure that I have seen pellet testing where the fired pellet was captured un-harmed and the fired pellet was shorter and fatter. From what I gathered at the time, the pellet suffered a bit of a squish effect brought on by resistance from the rifling on the front end and pressure on the back end. It was very obvious in a picture when an unfired pellet and fired pellet were placed side by side.
For a pure Diabolo design, waist expansion would do nothing. For something that has a cylindrical waist, or if the pellet was bullet shaped, then waist expansion/squish might play into what you are talking about.
I have no clue where to find it now. Maybe someone else will see this and remember.
Shootski,
On the topic of turbulence, I have played with the baffle cones and other aspects on the .25 M-rod quite extensively. Just the other day I put it all back to stock and was getting 3-4″ groups at 100 yards. Then, I pulled the baffles and put in muzzle weights (3/4×1/2 bronze bushings) and proceeded to shoot 1 5/8 and 1 1/4″. I have tried a combination of weights and baffles as well as nothing too.
My .22 Maximus does very well with this:
/product/crosman-np214-001-trail-baffle?a=7784
But, very poor with this:
/product/hatsan-air-stripper-for-select-22-cal-hatsan-air-guns?a=4557
So, go figure.
Chris,
Are you talking about using bullet shaped boat tail projectiles in SMALL caliber airguns? (177, .22, .25, .30) I want to make sure I understand what you were proposing in your initial comment before I chime in.
Half
GF1,
If you have ever taken apart a Foster 12 ga. slug you will see that it is a “cup” of lead with a plastic core. The weight-forward design helps to keep it stable.
I am thinking about those Crosman “ash can” pellets (but with a domed head) with one of those polymag points mounted in the back of the pellet to streamline it.
Hank
Hank
Yep I can see it working. Then the next step is shooting and see what happens.
I bet it would be critical for the outside diameter fit to the rifling.
But in theroy the back stabilizing should help. And that would also aid in deep seating the projectile deeper in the barrel.
Have you tried the H&N Grizzly projectiles? They are a bullet shape for air guns so to call them pellets might be inappropriate. I would be interested in your thoughts on how well they work.
Gerald
Participant
No I have not tryed them. Sorry.
Chris USA tryed something like that at one time. Or maybe something else.
I wish I knew.
Participant,
Yes I have,.. .25 in the M-rod. It was back in mid 2016. Just now looking back at my targets, I see the average at 50 yards was around 1 1/2″ ~2″. The best I found was 1 3/8″ 8/8 and 4 of those was 5/8″. I still have a full can and a partial, so I should try them again. The gun is slightly different now and I am much better than I was then.
I had high hopes for them, but other pellets were doing much better, even then. I shoot the 33.95 and 25.39 JSB’s now.
Gunfun and Chris
Thanks for your input, as Chris said, I also have high hopes for them. I like the better ballistic coefficient of them compared to the pellet. That means more down range energy and less hold over. My thought is that the gun would have to be tuned for them at the expense of loosing accuracy of other pellets.
Gerald
Gerald
If you do try them let us know.
Chris and all
Here’s my can plinking holder.
As I always say. Simple but effective. I made it from a old humming bird feeder pole, some yarn and coat hanger hooks.
Figured the hooks would be the best. That way if one can gets shot up faster than another I can change each individual can. I originally was going to tie the cans to the yarn. But would not be as efficient.
And I think I’m going to make 3 or 4 of them up and place them at different location and distances.
Anyway here I go. Shooting time. 🙂
And up closer to see the coat hanger hooks.
Here is Mrkll
I removed 2 cans on the ground. Then I added them up on top of the humming bird rod.
The reason why. Higher powered guns had to much energy to move all the cans tetherd together good. They would just Peirce through. But that was also because of distance.
Anyway here is what I got now. And also the cans suspended in the air keep moving for your next shot.
Oh also you can change out target sizes real easy too. Hmm what will my next targets be. 🙂
And yep MRKll is definitely more fun with the 1077/WildFire conversion.
25 yard’s, cans swing’n and Daisy wadcutters.
I hit ever shot with the 12 shot clip.
How much more accurate can you expect than that shooting free hand standing with open sights.
Now who’s going to do that next? Maybe it is about who’s on the trigger. 😉
Whoops redot sight.
But you know what I mean. 🙂
GF1,
Nice. Here’s an idea, use two stakes and hang the cans between them spaced a few inches apart. Maybe the cans would have a tendency to move more when hit with a pellet without the other cans hanging on the same string. You are having way too much fun 🙂
Geo
The curve and over hang needs to be there. Is that what you mean? Two stakes side by side with the string straight down will make tangles. The over hang spaces them apart.
Right now with the Mrkll design with the strings side by side there is no tangle. Notice I have the can height staggard. They actually hit the other can and knock them out of the way.
TT
Nowhere to respond. Right. That’s what I’m talking about with pressure.
Halfstep,
Yes, that is what I am talking about. I am not sure what, if any, is available though. I am not a re-loader so I have no clue what is out there. Soft lead, re-size if needed. Loading/seating may be tricky. At least the shape would be there and that what are talking about.
A test of seal could be an air nozzle with a rubber tip to see if the grooves and lands are providing a 100% seal or not, set a lower pressure.
Chris U,
My thoughts on that are as follows.
I think boat tails are generally used on spire point and conical type bullets with copper jackets. The jacket and the boat tail work because the bullets are going many times faster than any practical air gun could fire them. Several Mach, in some cases. The jacket keeps the bullet engaged with the rifling because the speed would just strip lead off of the bullet instead of imparting spin. The boat tail decreases turbulence at those velocities, but I don’t think it has the same impact at airgun speeds. Those bullets have no drag stabilization only gyroscopic spin stabilization. The long shape requires lots of it and with a reasonable twist rate a firearm barrel can provide it because of the speed. It seems to me that an airgun barrel would need a twist rate that would make it hard to get the bullet down the barrel without stripping out, like a barber pole spiral.
I also would expect any air gun that could fire spire point bullets to operate at such high air pressures that its tank would be very heavy.
I have never reloaded but I use to subscribe to every major gun mag in print in my younger days and all of this is based on what I think I recall about boat tailed bullets. If my recollections are wrong then none of this is worth the time it took for anyone to read it. 😉
Half
Halfstep,
I did a (quick) look on Brownell’s site earlier and the lightest boat tail in .22 that I could find was 100 grain = long!. At 20 grains, a .22 pellet is getting heavy. The only thing that I think might benefit from a boat tail design would be the Grizzly pellet that has no skirt and very bullet shaped.
/product/h-n-grizzly-pellets-25-cal-31-grains-hollowpoint-150ct?p=1225
The Pile Driver in .22 is very bullet shaped and (does) have a boat tail:
/product/h-n-piledriver-pellets-22-cal-30-grains-domed-150ct?p=1224
All in all, an interesting thing to ponder. Thank you for your reply. You obviously know more on the topic of boat tails than I. Both of those are 30 grain plus, so (lots) of push will be required and maybe a different twist rate than normal.
I was out shooting earlier with Maximus at my Coduece spinners. I painted the paddles fluorescent orange. Very nice at 40 yards. I also did a shot with my nail gun cartridge reactive target. Very nice too. I also got my fluorescent orange cans set out at 30, 50, 70 and 100 yards. All in all,.. a good day.
Chris U,
I’ve been shooting today, but it’s been indoors, so far. I discovered, while trying to find some group sizes in different guns with Daisy WC to share with GF1, that I have 15 pellets now that I didn’t have when I bought my Coyote SE in .177. So I have been doing my 12 yd work to see which of them will be worthwhile to try at longer distances.
I don’t know if I posted it or not but I discovered that the Coyote has the hammer spring adjust just like the Urban. So I have been doing a little experimenting at 12 yds and have discovered that the few pellets that I have worked with so far shoot better, at 12 yards anyway, with a lighter setting than the factory setting. I plan to explore that more but, for now, I’m going outside and shooting up some of my own orange cans.
If anyone is interested AGD just posted a Definitive Guide to the Gamo Urban on their website.
Half
Halfstep,
15 ehh?,… That is a (very) respectable collection of pellets to try. I did look up the Coyote. Nice. A bit pricey for a Gamo IMO. For testing, weather permitting, I use 25 yards. If I am on my game for the session, I trust that. If not, I repeat later. I maybe have 8 in .22 and 4 in .25.
Adjustments are good. To me,… if it has it,.. they ought to at least advertise it. I mean really,…. at least that gets them in the same “ball park” as the M-rod.
It’s actually a BSA with Gamo branding and Gamo silencer. A pretty good gun for the money!
Chris U,
That was 15 ADDITIONAL pellets. With those I shoot 49 through most of my .177 guns now and I have small amounts of about a dozen obsolete pellets that I try in select guns in addition to the 49. There are many in that group of 49 that will not be replaced because they have not been accurate in any gun I’ve tried them in. Some have only been as accurate as other pellets that are cheaper and easy to find locally. I just want to give each gun a chance to eat what it likes if I can. I want to be a good host, so to speak. 🙂
Half
Chris
Nowhere to reply below on your comment about Rural King.
Yep I like the Rural King we have. They even sell chicks and ducklings and rabbits. They got firearms and ammo. Even go karts and utv’s. Just about whatever you need to do something.
And we use to have a Tractor Supply Company years ago but it went away. Then some years later Rural King popped up.
But yep you will have to let me know what you think about your Rural King when you get it.
Halfstep
What did you come up with on the Daisy wadcutters?
Did you see below what my Gauntlet did with them. At 25 yards it actually did better than my other guns with the Daisy wadcutters.
For the most part I usually get around 1-1/2″ groups at 25 yards with the other guns. For me that’s good enough for plinking. But was definitely surprised with the Gauntlet 25 yard group. The next question is will the Gauntlet repeat that. I’m thinking it will but haven’t tryed any more groups.
GF1
These were fired from my Coyote yesterday, Left-12 yards indoors, Right- 20 yards outside, dead calm winds. This is pretty typical of what I call inaccurate, even for a cheap pellet.
Now look at the center of the right hand photo. That is Crosman Precision Hunting Pointed pellets. That one stray pellet was not a called flyer but this is still what I would call an accurate cheap pellet.
What velocity would you guess your wildfire is shooting the Daisies?
Half
Halfstep
Any of the group’s you shot with all the pellets would be good enough for plinking cans from what I see.
And my WildFire is shooting the Daisy wadcutters at around 865 fps.
But do you mean the Gauntlet? That’s what I shot the group’s with the Daisy wadcutters below. I didn’t chrony them in the Gauntlet but they are definitely shooting faster out of the Gauntlet than the WildFire.
So did you check out the group’s I got below with the Gauntlet?
Oh and here’s something I was going to bring up before and forgot. I have had for some reason better luck with the Daisy wadcutters in the tins of 500 than the ones in the 250 plastic clip on containers. Maybe that’s why your not getting good results? And I haven’t really measured the difference of the two. But I do know the ones in the tin of 500 load harder in my guns and clips. So maybe the head and skirts are sized different in the two different containers. I don’t have any in the 250 count anymore or for a long time now. But I can measure some head and skirts sizes of the ones I have in the 500 count. Then you can measure your 250 count and see if there’s a difference.
GF1
I think at 25 or 30 yards I would miss a tomato paste can more often than I would want with the Daisy WCs. Did you see how much better the Pointed Crosmans shot? I’d rather spend 50 or 75 cents more per 500 count for that accuracy level.
I meant the Wildfire because I figured it was shooting slower than the gauntlet. Now that I know I can adjust the hammer spring in my Coyote I am going to try pellets at lower velocities to see how it impacts accuracy. The Daisy pellets are on my list because I’d like to be able to shoot them.
I would like to know the head size. I can use my new PelletGage on mine. All of my WCs are in the black belt pack.
Is the accuracy with the Wildfire better or worse than the Gauntlet with the Daisy pellets?
Half
Halfstep
My Gauntlet shoots the Daisy wadcutters the best out of my guns. The FWB 300 is next. The WildFire and others are all pretty equal to each other as in 3rd place to the FWB and Gauntlet.
And the reason I would not use the Crosman pellets is that I don’t like harder pellets.
And here is some head sizes on the Daisy wadcutters I have in the tins of 500.
3 pellets measured .176″ and 2 of the 5 measured .175″.
Here is the skirt size of the 5 pellets and I measured them in order in relation to head size.
The first 3 I measured was .184″ and the last 2 was .183″.
So the skirt diameters followed the head diameters. I probably should of measured at least 10 but at least this will give a idea to compare to what your pellets measure. Curious to know.
GF1,
I measured 10 pellets with a Mitutoyo dial caliper and got 8 that measure .177″ and 2 that measured .174″ on the head. The skirts ran between .186″ and .189″ with .186″ being most common, so these are definitely different from yours.
I weighed those 10 pellets and got these numbers. 2@ 7.7gr, 1@ 7.8, 2@ 7.9, 1@ 8.0, 2@ 8.1, 1@ 8.4 and 1 @ 8.6. That ain’t too hot in a 10 pellet sample.
The skirts are formed differently from pellet to pellet and they don’t stand at the same height when you set them on their nose side by side. That’s why I call ’em crappy.
How many of those tins did you buy and from where? Did you notice the difference because you got better results when you ran out of belt packs and had to buy the tins instead or did you have to buy belts packs at some point and lost the accuracy that you had been getting with the ones in the tin? Was it a really noticeable difference?
Half
GF1,
We have a Rural King coming to the local town soon. Anxious to check it out. Now, we have a TSC and if I am in there it is usually to find some hard to find part for my latest diabolical “invention”. 🙂
Halfstep
I always get the tins of 500 from the local Rural King farm supply store and PA. But I ran out one time when I was waiting for my PA order to arrive. All the farm supply had was the 250 count belt packs. And yes that’s when I saw accuracy change. I have never got the belt packs since. I have to say though my groups were better than what you showed but not as good as what I get with the 500 count tins.
And all in all I think what it comes down to is I want the wadcutters for the hit when I’m can plinking. And I don’t want to spend alot and I don’t like hard pellets. So for what I use the Daisy wadcutters for they work for me. And the results I have got are acceptable to me.
That’s about all I can say. For me I’m happy with them.
Halfstep,
Yup, thanks for the heads up on the “Definitive Guide”. One thing I noticed as I read through the information was that they stated the Urban as having a SAT trigger instead of a CAT trigger. Matters not to me because with the 2.5mm x 9mm screw mod, my Urban’s trigger is just about perfect. They also made note of the ability to adjust the hammer spring. Also interesting was the fact that they achieved the best groups at 35 yards with the H&N Baracudas with a 10-shot group of .290″. That’s pretty amazing.
Man, I wish the weather would cooperate. When the weather is good, I don’t have the time and when I have the time, the weather is not good. Still have yet to shoot the Urban out at longer distances. I have been confined to shooting in my basement at 17 yards. It’s getting a little boring shooting hole in hole at 19 yards though. Not as many starlings coming to my feeders now 🙂
Geo,
If you have two screws in your trigger group ( one is right in the trigger proper ) I believe that is the CAT. I don’t think the SAT has a first stage adjustment and the letters S A T are cut into the trigger. I understood the guy in the video to say that they used to have the CAT and now they have just the SAT. I have the CAT on both Urbans and the Cotote and the CAT is still listed as a feature on the gun everywhere I looked for it this morning, so who knows?
I discovered this weekend that with a swap out of one part I can put my Coyote .177 action in my Urban’s stock. That should make the Coyote much lighter and I definitely prefer the pistol grip on the Urban stock.
It”s been sunny and mid 80s here for a week and 94 expected today The humidity has been untypically low as well. I’ll see if I can push some of it up to you so you can stretch that baby out to 50 yds. I want to hear about your results when you do.
I have forgotten. Did you say you live in the U.P. or not?
Half
Half,
Yeah, my Urban has the CAT trigger with two screws. The reviewer made is sound as if Gamo changed the type of trigger used in the Urban. Who knows?
Cool that you can swap out the Coyote stock for the Urban’s stock. I too like the thumb hole stock on the Urban. It should cut the weight down a couple of pounds at least.
I am in southwest Michigan near Kalamazoo. Yes, there really is a Kalamazoo 🙂
Our weather has been cold, down in the 40s and windy as well. Now it’s warming up to the 70s and 80s but raining everyday. And, my grass is getting really high because I have not mowed yet. I won’t mow until the grass is good and dry. The wife has had me driving around getting mulch and hanging plants. No time to mow grass or to shoot 🙁
Halfstep,
Could not reply to the above comment you posted to GF1 regarding measuring pellets. Digital calipers are not really accurate enough. You need to use the pelletgage or as I did, use a calibrated micrometer with a .0001″ vernier barrel. I did a test some time ago and measured 10 to 20 samples of JSB, RWS Superdome, and Crosman Premiers. At the start I use my digital calipers to measure the head sizes and skirt sizes. Calipers are only accurate to .001″ and it’s difficult to get a good feel with them. Then I tried measuring the same pellets with my 0-1″ Starrett micrometer. I used a jewler’s eyepiece to observe when I was rubbing material. I could also lock the mic at a setting and then close it slightly until I could feel a drag on the pellet. This is still a diametrical size and the pellets are not perfectly round either. I did get different results with the mic verses the caliper. Also the JSBs and Superdomes were very consistent on head sizes. The CPs were all over the map. Which I believe is the reason I would get fliers about 2 out of 10 shots with them.
The point is that you will get different results when measuring with different methods. The pelletgage is probably the most accurate because it sees all points on the circumference of the pellet, not just two random points.
Geo
The pellet gage can’t measure out of round. That is a problem that causes inaccuracy.
And I really think we are stretching things a bit far on this pellet plinking stuff.
The way I see it is if I hit a can 10 out of 10 shots at whatever distance. That means that pellet and gun are accurate enough to do what I want. I don’t even need to know what group it will shoot. I already know what group it will shoot. It will shoot a can sized group at that given distance. And that will be accurate plinking.
GF1,
I agree with you. I don’t do any plinking. My main purpose is pesting and some target shooting to verify that my shots are accurate and zeroed in at the range I shoot mostly. I want the best and most accurate pellet I can get for my airgun…thank you.
Geo
I’m the same way when it comes to my pesting and target shooting.
But when it comes to plinking. I do want accurate also. And if I hit what I’m plinking at every shot the only way I see it is that it is doing the job I want. In other words that is a accurate shooting pellet out of that gun.
Now here’s the difference. Just so happens that is a 12 oz can that I hit at 25 yards every shot. Now let’s put a dime out at 25 yards. Well I’m probably not going to hit every shot. So now all of a sudden that gun and pellet is not accurate.
What I’m getting at is that’s the case with my pesting and target shooting guns also. Just cause I have a accurate gun and pellet at 50 yards doesn’t mean that I’ll be able to get the same results at a 100 yards.
So that’s my reason for saying the Daisy wadcutters do shoot hood for how I use them.
Geo
GF1 gave his measurements in inches so I did mine in inches. I can read to about .0005″ with my calipers. The pelletgage is in mm and because .001″ = .025mm, converting pelletgage mm to inches didn’t seem like it would be as accurate as I could get with my calipers. For the purposes of my discussion with GF1, 001″ was more than close enough to show that my pellet lot is different from his.
I have to disagree with you on your assessment of the pelletgages accuracy, at least as it regards Crosman pellets. I have measured over 1000 Ultra mags and Hollow points recently and have found the fact that the gage is measuring all points around the head, to use you words, is actually a hindrance. Those pellets tend to have a tiny line of flash that I, at least, can’t readily see running down their length. It might cause the gage to read, for example, 5.55mm. If you apply a tiny bit of force to the skirt the pellet will then pass through the 5.55mm hole and the 5.54mm and will not go through the 5.53 hole, until you add a touch more pressure, then it will pass, as well as through the 5.52mm and eventually give an accurate diameter reading of 5.51mm. It is gradually shaving down the flash until it actually does make contact with the entire circumference of the pellet head. Before I discovered this I was measuring most of the pellets up to that point as 5.55mm when they were really 5.51mm. ( those are measurements for this discussion, not the actual measurements that I got).
I could see the same thing happening to a pellet that was dented slightly or otherwise deformed a little around the head. The displaced lead could require a larger hole for the pellet to pass through and wouldn’t give the best picture of the diameter of the remaining, undamaged part of the head and that’s what will be engaging the rifling. Having said that, I’m never going to be willing to try to hold 1000 pellets in my hand and mic each individual one, especially in .177″, so the pelletgage is just going to have to be good enough for me. And the flash issue has only been evident in Crosman pellets, so far.
I see that Kalamazoo is at about the same Latitude as Chicago. I guess you get all that ” Lake Effect” snow that I hear about on the Weather Channel? And, by the way, don’t let me ever catch you insinuating again that shooting and cutting grass have the same priority. My wife reads this blog sometimes and I don’t want her pickin’ up any foolish notions! Enjoy the day. 🙂
Half
Halfstep
Did you see my comment to Geo about the pellet gage.
The pellet gage will not show a out of round head on a pellet. To find that you need to measure multiple points around the diameter of the pellet head.
A out of round head will cause accuracy problems at some point depending on how out of round. So I suggest after you use the pellet gage that you also use your calipers to check for out of round.
That would at least be a good experiment to see what difference you get shooting the out of round heads compared to uniform heads.
GF1
Roger that.
Half
Halfstep,
That is a very good description of the pellet gage usage. I do believe that B.B. said that a slight wiggle along with slight pressure is what worked for him. I found that to be true. Mine is a .25 and I chose that gage because they are the most expensive pellets I shoot and also the ones that I shoot at 100 yards.
I have nothing bad to say about it,.. but I can not say that it has helped me at all either. At my most extreme, I would weigh (and) head sort and shot only those pellets in a group. It is tougher than one might think to get 20 pellets that fit (both) that criteria.
It could be just me and that I can not shoot well enough to see the difference between sorted and un-sorted.
Something that I forgot to mention when I got those great groups at 100 yards the other day was that I was “holding off” on some shots based on what my Vana2 wind indicators were showing. The breeze was minimal and sporadic,.. so anything that I was doing was a purely uneducated guess. Whatever happened, it worked. I also acknowledge that it could have been just pure luck too.
Chris,
Truth be told, a huge portion of my result are dependent on luck, windy or not, far out or in close. That’s why I spend so much time finding accurate pellets for my guns.
I’m with you, the pelletgage does it”s job, but I don’t know whether it makes me and my gun more accurate. All the sorting with the Crosman pellets that I spoke of was for some velocity stuff I was doing on one of my guns. Shooting pellets that weigh the same and have the same head diameter would make the graphic image of the valve performance in that gun more representative than would be the case shooting a mix of head sizes and weights. More wintertime Tom Foolery than anything else, really.
Half
Halfstep,
I agree with you. I don’t own a pelletgage and only know what I have read about it. I will say that when I used a micrometer I was able to get a more accurate size than with my digital calipers.
Yes, I know that that the Crosman pellets have a parting line which can make checking them with a pelletgage inaccurate as well. I read here on the blog about someone else having the same issue as you with shaving the parting line with the pelletgage and getting a smaller actual head size than first thought.
I am very confident in the measurements I made with the micrometer though.
Actually I think I’m a little bit north of you in Chicago and yes, we do get the lake effect snow. We are 35 miles east of the lake so we don’t get near as much as just a few miles west of us. LOL, okay I understand where your priorities lie. Just remember this…happy wife, happy life. My wife was nagging this afternoon that our grass is too high and needs cutting. She’s right though because I have yet to cut it this spring and the weeds are growing like crazy with all the rain we’ve gotten over the past few days. So, for me it’s looking like cutting the grass has to come before shooting. Thanks for the laugh 🙂
Geo,
I’m actually in KY at the Falls of the Ohio. And before you ask, No we don’t get “River Effect” snow ! 🙂
Get that grass cut so you can report your long range results.
Half
Geo,
I said Chicago earlier when what I meant was Detroit. Hope you got your grass cut cause it looks like you have rain on the way.
Half
Half,
Yes…now I remember that you lived in Kentucky.
Yup on getting the grass cut 🙂
Very nice shooting.
I’d like to see results with it scoped.
Well I decided to try something today. This is with my .177 caliber Gauntlet. And to note it shoots the JSB 10.34’s at about a .650″-.750″ ten shot group at 50 yards.
Here is the Gauntlet with the Daisy wadcutters. The group on the left is 50 yards and it is a 10 shot group. Two pellets went in the same hole. The 10 shot group on the right is at 25 yards. And the wind was blowing around 3-7 mph to the left. And on the 25 yard shot I aimed a 1/2 mil dot under. I was figuring it would hit high so that’s why I did the hold under.
Not bad at 25 yards to me anyway. And of course as I knew already was going to happen not so good at 50 yards. Wadcutters tend to start opening up after 30 yards or so. And as it goes if I was plinking or pesting birds or mice I would use the Daisy wadcutters in my Gauntlet.
GF1,
All in all,… not bad. That surprises me.
Chris
Yep not bad in closer anyway. But for sure not as good as the JSB 10.34’s.
And I could definitely feel them draging on something when the bolt pushed them forward on each shot. And that was using the magazine. I didn’t try the single shot tray. And to note the JSB round nose pellets load smooth with the bolt. So I’m thinking the flat nose wadcutters try to catch on the barrel some way.
And I did try shooting the wadcutters at the cans with the Gauntlet. They definitely knocked the can around more than the round nose JSB’s. You have to hit the rim of the top and bottom of the can with the JSB’s to get the can to move good. The wadcutters I could hit anywhere on the can and it would knock it good.
Anyway back to shoot’n.
And I meant to say I would use the wadcutters in my Gauntlet to pest birds or mice at (25 yards). Definitely not at 50 yards.
GF1,
Packing the “wallop” or not,… I do not think that I would (ever) use a known,.. LESS accurate pellet. Make all the arguments you want,… I would never do it.
Chris
For me it would be about where I was shooting at.
If I’m shooting in a barn at 25 yards and under with the Gauntlet I would use the wadcutters to lessen the chance of pass through. Now if I was outside it would be the JSB’s.
And actually if I was shooting in a barn it would be a multi-pump and the wadcutters. That way I can control velocity to prevent the pass through. Better than with a PCP or springer or Co2 gun. Your stuck with velocity they produce with them guns.
But as it goes there’s a proper tool for the job. So for me anyway I don’t use one type I use multiple types of guns and a pellet for how I use that gun.
Chris,
I sort of feel the same way, most of the time anyway. When I miss I want to know that I missed and that it wasn’t because of repeated errant pellets. I’m usually only plinking but I like to do it with the smallest targets at the longest distance that I can.
When I’m supplying pellets for friends or family to shoot with me, I will definitely go with the cheape$t pellet that is ” good enough “.If they want better, let ’em bring better, I say!
Half