by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Takedown rifle
- What am I saying?
- Whiscombe
- Takedown guns that work
- Same caliber for pistol and rifle
- The truth
- Dual fuel airguns
- Cocks on opening AND closing!
- What else?
Sometimes an idea for a blog just overwhelms me. Today is such a time.
Takedown rifle
I was reading about a takedown AR in the May edition of Firearms News. This 5.56mm rifle breaks down to three pieces that are less than 18 inches long, and it even comes with a backpack to carry it. I scanned the article and it seemed like a great idea — until it hit me. I have been down this road before and it leads nowhere! Takedown rifles do not function the way most people think.
The author showed several targets that seemed reasonable for an AR. Now, ARs are not that accurate, as everyone who shoots them is aware. They are good for five shots in 2 inches at 100 yards and good ones can do a little better, but accuracy is not their strong suit — anymore than it is the strength of an AK. The author showed a 4-inch group of five at 200 yards, which is very good for an AR. He also showed a 1-1/4-inch group of three at 100 yards. Okay — three shots is a modern gun writer’s way of fudging the truth. A rifle that can put 3 in to 1-1/4-inches will put 10 into 2.5 inches. That is the real accuracy of the rifle. Still, for an AR it’s not that bad.
Then he showed a picture of the rifle broken into three pieces and stuffed into a backpack. Also pretty amazing. But, wait a minute — where did his scope go? Oh, it had to come off the rifle. But don’t worry, it’s quick to attach and detach.
That’s the flaw! Sure, this rifle may come apart into three pieces and go together quickly and, sure, it may be accurate at 100 yards — BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME! I guarantee you the writer had the gun together with the scope mounted for some time and he worked hard to get it re-sighted before he shot those groups!
What am I saying?
I’m saying you can have a gun that comes apart and you can have a gun that hits the target and shoots good groups, but I have yet to see a gun that can be put together and hit the target or shoot good groups right away. Yes, one gun can do both things — but there is a down time required to get the gun resighted after putting it together. And, it’s longer than five minutes!
Whiscombe
I have the ultimate rifle that allows barrel swaps — a Whiscombe. It doesn’t break down for storage or transportation — just for a caliber change. After I swap the barrel I have to spend a lot of time (30 minutes or longer) resighting the gun for the new barrel. And the scope stayed mounted on the gun when the barrels were changed!
My Whiscombe rifle has barrels in all 4 smallbore calibers. The scope stays mounted, but you still have to sight in each time the barrel is changed.
Another gun that allows barrel swapping is my AirForce TalonSS. I can put 3 different barrel lengths in any of 4 different calibers on the one gun — That’s a combination of 12 different configurations. After any changes, though, time has to be spent sighting it all in!
Takedown guns that work
The takedown guns I described don’t work the way advertisers imply. But there is a version that does work exactly as expected — the takedown that uses open sights. I have a Marlin model 39 lever action rimfire that comes apart into a very small package of two parts and yet it’s accurate the instant it’s back together. Same for a Winchester model 61 slide action rifle. These rifles have both their open sights on the barreled action, which is the key to their success.
A Marlin 39 lever action comes apart in two short sections. When it is assembled it is perfectly sighted in because both sights are on the front section.
Same caliber for pistol and rifle
This is a firearm story, but it’s similar to those airguns that shoot both BBs and pellets. It centers on a lever action rifle and single action revolver that use the same cartridge. The sales pitch is you only need one cartridge for both guns. The truth is somewhat different.
The truth
Yes the same cartridge will fit and operate in both guns. It will — there is no denying it. But if you care anything about hitting your target — well, you may want to reconsider. Factory ammo that has been loaded-down to be safe — even in vintage revolvers — is what works in everything. Shoot it and you’ll soon be wanting something better!
I had a Winchester model 92 rifle in .44-40 caliber. I reloaded for it and got it shooting 2-inch five-shot groups at 100 yards. However, to do that I had to exceed the pressures that even a modern handgun is built to take. It was no problem for the rifle, but those pressures were dangerous in a revolver.
Yes you can have both a rifle and a revolver chambered for the same cartridge but no — neither one will perform its best with cartridges made for both. Back in the blackpowder days all you could get was one load, so at that time they worked as well as anything. Not so today.
Dual fuel airguns
Crosman came up with this concept with the launch of the Benjamin Discovery in 2007. It sounded so good! You could use either compressed air or CO2 in the same rifle. As long as your pellets held out you were always in business.
The truth was somewhat messier. To fill the rifle with air required one fill adaptor; CO2 needed a different one. You could not switch from one gas to the other without degassing the gun completely in between.
I swear what I am about to say is true. I heard from people using their Discos on CO2 who said they wished their guns were a little more powerful and not so sensitive to temperature, and those using air wished they got more shots per fill. I will use that thought as the summary to why dual fuel doesn’t work. As proof I offer this — the original Marauders were offered with the dual fuel capability. Today Crosman has scrubbed every reference to that concept from their manual and they state emphatically in the warnings that only compressed air is to be used!
Cocks on opening AND closing!
This one was developed for spring guns and I first saw it on the Erma ELG10. What looked like a finger lever on a lever action rifle was actually just the handle on a long underlever that cocked the mainspring.
What looks like a finger lever is just the handle of a longer underlever to cock the mainspring. Force is applied in both directions to cock the gun!
You guys probably never heard of the ELG10, so why mention it? I mention it because a Belgian firm named Rutten has had the same design on a group of rifles they call Windstars for the past 25 years and they are selling it the same way. Namely that by cocking in both directions the effort is decreased by half. In fact, it is not. These guns, whether they are made by Erma or Rutten, do not cock with half the effort. In fact they take TWICE the effort, because the lever pulls just as hard in each direction (about 33-35 lbs.).
What else?
Okay, I have kicked the anthill. Now it’s your turn to vent. What things bother you because they don’t work as advertised? Let’s stick to airguns to keep this manageble.
B.B.
I bought my brother a Marlin model 39 over 30 years ago; he had trouble seeing the open sights, so we mounted a receiver sight on it; still, when it breaks down, both sights are on the barreled action section of the gun; hence, it shoots great and right to the point of aim the second you re-assemble it. Like you said, it’s the only take-down gun (at least that I have seen so far) that works as advertised without tweaking!
And thank you for the pistol-rifle-same-caliber write up; I was thinking of going this route, and you just changed my mind.
Keep up the good work,
take care & God bless,
dave
Dave,
Sorry about messing with your p[lans, but I’ve never seen a pistol/rifle combo that worked as I imagined it should.
B.B.
Well, as you said, back in the 1877, a Winchester ’73 in .44-40 and a “Colt Frontier” or “Frontier Six-Shooter” (a model P in .44-40 caliber) made some sense; but in today’s world of nearly limitless possibilities of bullets and powders, there’s no reason to limit either the rifle or the pistol. And the more I read what you said, the more sense it made; thanks for being a straight shooter and telling it like it is. =D
Dave,
Yes, when all cartridges were loaded the same with black powder, it did make sense. But smokeless powder and, as you noted, the variety of better bullets available today, have ended the time this is effective.
There is one possibility that I haven’t tested. A lever action rifle coupled with a Desert Eagle pistol — both chambered in .357 Magnum — might be an exception. The DE can handle rifle pressures, so the same rounds may work well on both.
B.B.
B.B.,
It’s funny you should mention that caliber; I have a S&W 681 (basically a 686 with fixed sights) that I bought for my Dad as a home defense gun over 35 years ago; he had trouble with the thin stock wooden grips, so I got him a set of Pachmayr grips for it. Right before he passed away, he gave the gun to me; hence, it is an heirloom.
I was thinking of getting a .357 lever action rifle so I could reload for both guns, and take the rifle when I go on vacation trips to places where the 681 cannot travel.
Fortunately, the carry laws are being fixed in the states around me (SC, the last holdout, now has reciprocity with GA); so perhaps if I’m thinking about going somewhere that doesn’t welcome my 681, I should just stay home, hahaha!
But my thoughts were that the 681 is much tougher than the K-frame; according to my mechanical engineering gun bud, it can handle a steady diet of full-power .357 loads that would rattle a K-frame. I know it’s not quite as strong as a Ruger GP 100, let alone the Desert Eagle, but I thought I might be able to get a load that shot decently in both the 681 and something like a Marlin 1894 in .357 caliber.
But I grew up in the golden age of westerns, so I think the 1873 Winchester and Frontier Six-Shooter have influenced my thinking. =>
Thanks again, B.B!
dave
I have a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 and a Glock 19 both shooting 9mm Luger, and I think they both work pretty well. The Sub 2000 could be described as gimmicky. It’s not as accurate as a scoped carbine rifle, but at 100 yds it will hit a pie plate, and use the same magazines as the pistol. It folds to fit in a briefcase or backpack.
Take it to the range, and it never fails to attract attention. I guess the “gimmick” attraction is all too often a big compromise somewhere.
Dave,
I have often thought that if I lived in Alaska I would want a short barreled revolver and a lever action carbine chambered in S&W 500 Magnum. Something like that might work.
RR,
There was a Spanish made double barrel .410 shot available years ago (how long ago? – ’twas $33.00 🙂 ) that folded so the barrels would touch the stock.
A couple of my trapper friends had them because they were compact, good for small game and could shoot slugs (though not very accurately). Heard that they also used pistol ammunition in them but never saw it done.
It’s another of those guns I wished that I had picked up when I had a chance.
Hank
RidgeRunner, I think you’re right; in Alaska, that combo would rock!
Interestingly, at the Base where I work, there are a LOT of people who were stationed in Alaska at some point, and every single one of them says they would move back there in a heartbeat. They are all hunters, shooters, outdoors people…yeah, even the women want to move back there. *shrugs*
I’ve never been there, so I guess I’m missing out. =>
B.B.,
Over here with the external hammer rifles it is popular for some manufacturer’s to make them into what they call three cock rifles, meaning that they have a low, medium and high power setting. Being powered by CO2 the Point of Impact rarely stays the same.
Siraniko
BB
What about the the Air Arms S510 TDR PCP Air Rifle? That appears that the sight will remain in alignment.
SP4449
Sp4449,
The TDR required the removal of the scope to fit in its case. Here is my report.
/blog/2015/12/air-arms-s410-tdr-precharged-pneumatic-pellet-rifle-part-5/
B.B.
Not any more it doesn’t. The new 510 TDR comes in a hard case with a pretty big cut out that will allow most scopes to fit.
So you really can just pull it out, put the butt stock on and shoot
Tyler,
That’s good to hear. In that case, the TDR is a go.
B.B.
BB
The case has space for a scope as you showed in the first part of the report. IF a scope with all the features you wanted and of the correct size existed it might solve the problem. Tyler’s comment below seems to offer some hope.
Great reports, thanks.
SP4449
Good article and one sure to get a bunch of responses. Pellets come to mind first. Lot’s of gimmicky designs. What also comes to mind is that there is many aspects to air guns and related equipment. One is well served to at least have a basic understanding of each aspect. Having that well in hand will help one to avoid gimmicks. Plus,.. with the internet today,.. gimmicks will be weeded out in short order. True innovation is different, but can also have it’s pitfalls until any bugs are worked out. True improvement is almost always good.
As long as people remain uneducated on a topic/product,… there will always be a market for the latest gimmicky thing coming down the pike.
Good Day one and all,…. Chris
Chris,
Gimmicky pellets is a good one. They are like fishing lures and camouflage, which are made to catch the eye of the fisherman and the hunter.
RR,
Yup, designed for sales appeal, not necessarily functionality.
Have to laugh about the “designer” camo patterns sold these days – they are way too detailed to be any good beyond 10 yards. If the color and pattern exactly matches the background then they good if you don’t move much. But, they lack contrast and excessive detail makes them look like a dark or light human shaped blob which is very obvious. Don’t break up the human form very well.
I like large, contrasty patterns that break up my outline when moving through the bush – like the camo they use on military ships. Used to make my own “ghillie-suit” camo out of patches of cloth attached to my jacket and pants.
Many of the commercially available ghillie-suits are funny – they lack contract and look like a swamp-monster or Cousin It with a bad hair day LOL!
Have to wonder about the camo-clothes fad that is on. An attractive young lady wants to be noticed so she wears camo clothes that are designed to destroy her shape… duh – that’s counter productive! And parents dress their kids up in camo which makes them less visible and send them out to play on the streets – dangerous! Guess they don’t like their kids and have good insurance policies.
Happy Monday eh!
Hank
Chris USA
You hit the nail on the head, Chris. Gimmicks have always been used in an attempt to sell more product then if it was just made with the bare necessities needed to get the job done. How boring is that? When it comes to pellets, I have been taken in at least a half dozen times. I once bought 4 tins of H+N Neue Spitzkugel pellets when they first came out over 5 years ago. Two tins in .177 cal- 8.49g, and two tins in .22 cal- 15.89g. They have a very slightly pointed flat head, with a body similar to JSB’s .177- 10.34gr Exact Heavies. On my best day I can manage 1.5 in groups at 10 meters with my best 10 meter airgun (TAU-200). I still have all four tins, with about 450 pellets left in the single tin of .177 cal I opened. Both tins of 300 .22 cal pellets remain sealed. One might argue since they were only $12 a tin, my loss was negligible. However, I might have purchased 4 tins of H+N Field Target Trophies that I know will give me 1/2 inch groups at 25 meters in all calibers. They don’t look near as cool though.
This is merely one example of the times I’ve fallen for the gimmick factor. I noticed the airgun store I deal with still lists them for sale, however they’re now listed as Neue Spitzkugel Short Distance pellets. They’re likely old stock from their original order, as I haven’t seen them listed on H+N’s web page. They always seem to see me coming. jajaja
Ciao
Titu
Titus,
Like B.B. has pointed out in the past,… that is the (reality) of marketing a product. Buyer beware for sure. On pellets,… it seems a bit odd as pellet dies can not be cheap. Add in a metal or plastic point,… what does that add? Press a bb into the head? With all of the current and varied options these days,… it must be profitable. If not,… why do it?
Don’t feel too bad,… I have made a few mistakes myself. Luckily I found this blog early on and have managed to avoid more pitfalls than I have become victim to. Well worth the price of admission!!!! 😉
Chris
Titus,
In all reality,… I am surprised that “they” have not come out with a pellet that is the same on the front as it is on the rear. (dome/dome) That way,… we old guys that have failing sight can’t ever load a pellet backwards!
I have heard of “dumbbell” pellets,… but I do not know it that would be the same thing or not. Trust me,.. if “they” think that there is a market for an idiot/dumb proof pellet,… we will all see one very soon! 😉
BB,
Break barrel sproingers with the scope mounted on the receivers. There may be a couple that lock up true, but you can bet they are few and far between in the lower price range. The new Sig sounds promising, but it is not in the lower price range either.
BB,
We also have the velocity race, most especially with sproingers. Some manufacturers have started touting power also, but unless you have accuracy, velocity and power are not worth a hill of beans.
Speaking of gimmicky pellets, whatever happened to the Umarex Havox pellets?
RR,
I don’t know. I have a sample of them, which is one or two of each caliber, but I’ve never seen them for sale.
B.B.
BB,
Very likely manufacturing costs eliminated them. That and maybe accuracy. If they were accurate there would be those who would buy them at any reasonable cost, but many people balk at paying five cents a pellet now. Those would likely be in the twenty-five to fifty cent range.
B.B.
Sounds like two for one is really 0 for three!
-Y
PS whatever happened to, “If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.”?
Yogi,
I think that is today’s alternate title. 😉
B.B.
BB,
I remember having a cheap Crosman CO2 pistol that shot bbs and pellets. It was pretty good for hitting feral soda cans out to about 25 yards with pellets, but you had better be pretty close if you hoped to hit them with bbs.
BB and all,
On a historical note concerning the rifle / pistol combination, when the U.S. Army was using the Trapdoor Springfield chambered in .45-70, they contracted Colt to produce two hundred single action Army revolvers chambered in .45-70 for field trials. The objective was to equip cavalry units with the Trapdoor carbines and these pistols. It chambered five rounds and was a massive pistol. What they discovered was that the recoil was more than the average person could deal with and the project was dropped. I have personally seen one of these pistols. I am not a small man and I would be most hesitant to pull the trigger on that monster. It would have to be a life or death situation.
RR,
That is a revolver I have never heard of. I wonder where one can read about it?
I once had a modern .45/70 revolver on special order but I cancelled it after thinking it through.
B.B.
BB,
It would likely take some digging to find out anything more about it. Maybe Colt can provide some information. I saw it over forty years ago in a display case at a gun shop. Maybe the NRA museum might have some information?
RidgeRunner, my hand hurts just thinking about touching off a round from that beast…but I’d love to see a picture of it if you have one!
Dave,
Sadly I do not. I saw that pistol in a display case at a gun shop in Newport News, VA about forty-one years ago. It was not for sale at the time. Where it is now is anybody’s guess.
I think the Gamo “Whisper” noise reduction was mostly imaginary. And my new Urban is not exactly quiet, but it looks like it has a muffler for a small engine out there.
JerryC,
Take the baffles out and fire it. I think you will change your mind. Remember that you are shooting a .22 caliber PCP that is making nearly 25 FPE with a short barrel. That is the formula for a loud report, So it’s doing a lot on the Urban and the Coyote. Where it IS just a gimmick, along with most other silencers, is on springers, particularly in .177, IMHO.
Half
On springers I think they are more useful as a handle to make cocking the rifle easier on the palm.
Geo,
Yes on that. Made with that in mind,… it would be a benefit. Added length/leverage and easier to the hand.
I think so many people were already formulating their response they missed the last line “airguns only”.
The gimmicky device I would have to nominate is the double barreled air rifle you reviewed last year.
Where is it now
?
45Bravo,
I have no idea.
B.B.
45Bravo,
No, I did report on a double barreled shotgun from this year’s SHOT Show.
B.B.
BB,
I thought you did a review of a twin barreled PCP also. Beeman, maybe? Or maybe I saw it on AGD’s Stranger Guns series. It exists though.
I think that double shotgun is a gimmick. Heck I think that an air shotgun used for anything but Airbolts is a gimmick, for that matter. Not enough shot to be useful.
Half
Half,
It’s here:
/blog/2016/09/beeman-double-barrel-air-rifle-part-4/
B.B.
By where is it now I meant where in the world of airguns is that model selling.
On the PA website it is listed as “preorder now”. With no eta on when it will be in stock. And listed as out of stock.
It died a quiet death.
A 4 part series from you, and it went to the graveyard where it belonged.
Did we see a future rare model that in 20 years will be on the rare airgun radar?
45Bravo,
Yes, I remember that double barrel air rifle review; when I read about that gun, all I could think was, “Why?,”
as in, why would anyone even think of making such a thing?
Back to your “airguns only” comment, you reminded me of one airgun I saw that was really neither fish nor fowl. I wish I had a pic, but we had no smart phones back in those days.
Anyway, I took a Sheridan pump-up pistol and got a guy at work to help me fabricate an aluminum folding stock for it (which, since it wasn’t a firearm, was totally legal). Then, using a Sheridan intermount, I added a short but heavy and bulky 4X scope to it. The idea was to make a back-packable airgun that could harvest small game if need be. The result was a heavy bulky gimmicky gun that is blown away by my current 1322 with a 12″ barrel, which is lighter, more powerful, and more accurate.
What happened to the pseudo-backpacker airgun? It got sold off, cheaply, to a friend. =>
But thanks for bringing up the memory for me!
take care,
dave
Sorry, it was 2016.
/blog/?s=Doubl&btnGo=
45Bravo,
Here’s a “Stranger Guns” episode on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjHoeX3UUcY
Half
Hello.
The QB 57 side lever airrifle is an interesting TDR design.
The POI remains the same, because both the open sights and the scope (there is an 11mm rail on top of the front handle) stays with the barrel, when it is taken apart.
Hello.
The QB 57 side lever air rifle is an interesting TDR design.
The POI remains the same, because both the open sights and the scope (there is an 11mm rail on top of the front handle) stays with the barrel, when it is taken apart.
Sorry. I tried to post a jpg.picture of it, but it wouldn’t allow it !
Krasi,
do you have a QB 57? I’ve always wonder about those. I’ve never seen one in person, just read about them. Some swear by them.
Doc
Hello Doc.
I have one in both .177 and .22.
That way it is even possible to change barrels on the same stock/mechanism.
One is with the AK front sight and one is without it.
To me it seems a little like the mother of airgun bullpups at least for break barrels.
Quite precise even….
Krasi
What about scopes with astronomical amounts of magnification but only are only usable in the lower 2/3 of it’s advertised range. When manufacturers and advertisers find or develop an exploitable feature ( realistic or not) it’s their job to use it to their benefit. Our job is to sort the wheat from the chaff through due diligence and using applied experience. This blog is like a Gleanor combine taking in what’s put in front of it, deconstructing it, then separating the functional from the superfluous. Thanks B.B. for clarifying and educating, keep on threshing.
Carl
Carl,
I just be bringin’ in the sheaves! 😉
B.B.
Sorry folks but I am going to bypass the airguns only instructions because this particular firearm was gifted to me by BB Pelletier himself. It is a Marlin Papoose “hiking gun” or “camp gun” in .22 caliber that comes apart and is made to be stored into a fitted carrying case. As my eyesight has never been good but is failing as I grow older, I find it necessary to fit a scope to my long guns (I even added a scope to my Hakim and it is very accurate). So I needed to add a scope to my little Papoose and found a Tasco 3X-7X for under $20 at Wally World. So before you laugh, it fits perfectly mounted on the receiver in the case. It is also very accurate with the scope as you can see on the attached target. The only caveat is that I limit my shooting to 25 yards. 48/50 shots in a 1″ circle with this little sweet shooter is totally acceptable to me, even with the el cheapo scope. I did have to add a “stop” clamp as the inertia of the bolt literally caused the scope to slide backwards, no matter how tight I screwed the flimsy mounts to the dovetail grooves. I left the barrel inside the sleeve, but the front and rear sights are attached to the barrel, so with open sights, the zeroing is not affected by taking the rifle apart for storage.
Bob in Houston
Bob,
I forgot about the Papoose. I have one, too, and it is accurate after assembly because the scope remains on the receiver. Gotta pick the right scope to fit in the case, but the Papoose does work.
Well done!
B.B.
BB,
The Ruger 1022 Takedown is configured like that too.
OK, let’s clarify the statement about using the same cartridges in the rifle and the revolver. When you say that, are you speaking strictly about firearms? Or firearms and airguns?
I think the new Cowboy Lever Action BB rifle was supposed to be able to use the same BB cartridges used in the Umarex Colt SAA revolvers. Is that true or not true?
Charles,
Yes, I was referring to firearms.
B.B.
BB,
May we also assume that you were excluding .22lr guns, as my Browning 22 BLR and Ruger MK II Target put the lie to your statement otherwise. 🙂
Half
Hal;f,
Any time the sights go with the barrel the gun can be disassembled.
B.B.
BB,
I was actually referring to the handgun/rifle ammo sharing statement.
I have pretty good luck with repeatable accuracy on my old Armalite AR7 and my new Henry Survival rifle. They have removable barrels and the peep sight stays on the receiver.
Half
Half,
Yes, those barrels have a tapered breech that centers them like the rifle B-I-L mentioned.
Apparently I was too broad brush with this.
B.B.
B.B.,
good read. I too had several Winchester 61’s that were very accurate. But, like you said, I used open sights so they never needed reset. Dual Fuel, I hear good reviews with the Umarex Gauntlet using C02. Not a “Nice” airgun (was cheap in the day), but my Daisy 990 dual fuel works very good. It’s a pumper or a C02 gun. Point of impact will change depending on how many pumps you are used to putting in the gun vs C02.
I beef, I’ve never had a dual ammo air gun (gun that shoots bbs and pellets) work very good with both. In fact, the ones I have that are smooth bore work much better than the rifled versions as it pertains to shooting both well. Most every rifled barrel airgun I have had that claims to shoots bbs doesn’t do it well at all.
Doc
B.B.,
I know you said airguns, but my Brother had an HK 4 pistol that shot multiple calibers (22lr, .25, .32 & .380). His shot the center fire ok, but was horrible with 22 lr.
Doc
B.B.,
One thing has long confused me regarding the benefit of having a lever action rifle and a revolver chambered in the same cartridge.
Yes, one has to pack only one type of cartridge, but if it were two different cartridges, the number of cartridges that would have to be packed and carried would still be the same.
Also, the longer sight radius of the rifle’s sights are an advantage, as is the stability of shouldering the gun. And we know that longwer barrels allow the gases to e`xpamd more, producing greater velocity than will the samecartidge shot through a shorter barrel. But returns diminish. And is the difference worth having a weaker cartridge for the rifle than it otherwise could be chambered for?
If I were a cowboy of a certain era, I would have preferred the quick-reload Schofield and a lever-action rifle chambered BIG. The right tool for the job
Michael
Wow. “gases to expand more.” Must drink more coffee!
Michael
What about the Beeman Double Barrel air rifle as a gimmick.
Doc
Doc,
I think my report, cited earlier, proved that it is.
B.B.
Mr. Gaylord:
Dual fuels?
In my opinion, Bah Humbug!!
The crew has a couple of Crosman Challenger 2009 dual fuel rifles. Good rifle on HPA. But the aggravation of CO2 just isn’t worth the effort. We run crew rifles HPA only.
Just one rifle coach’s opinion. The experience of others may be different.
Respectfully.
William Schooley
Rifle Coach
Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
Why do they sell air rifle combos with such poor scopes? Why would a manufacturer put their name on a crap scope? To me it screams, “Enjoy the feeling of a failed scope within the first can of pellets”. RWS branded scope on a M34 “combo” shot the objective lense loose, more than once.
For the most part, very few scope manufacturer/retailers list the AO range of adjustment, or minimum focus distance in the specifications page of the scope in question.
Why doesn’t an air rifle from say, Diana (RWS), shoot best with RWS pellets? Seems like LW barrels frequently shoot best with JSB, doesn’t seem a stretch to have pellets made for the barrel… or vice versa.
EL54 ether injected air rifle, seems like a bad idea on the face of it. Enter: Firearm debate. That said, would be interesting to shoot one. I know this is a long obsolete rifle, it still amazed me the first time I ran across one, even more amazed how long it was built (27 years?). Long time for something that never caught on?
Why would you build an air rifle for the USA market, with a scope rail, with enough droop to require an adapted/adjustable scope mount to affix a scope to? I have a Terrus, with a straight barrel, that a droop compensating mount barely got on paper at 25 yards. It is an otherwise boringly accurate rifle (to borrow a phrase) capable of an inch at 40 yards. Would it be so hard to build a fixture to rapidly or automatically measure droop?
Why aren’t the sharp edges taken off by the mfgr. as built, since it seems like so many rifles wind up with OEM damaged piston seals? Does it really add so much cost to the rifle that it wouldn’t sell? I have only taken apart two air rifles and both had damaged seal lips. Maybe that is why advertised doesn’t meet actual velocities…
MMCM13,
All good points! 🙂
B.B,
Great blog! I do understand your position and will offer the exception that makes the rule; TRUE!
I can’t believe you so quickly forgot all the rifle and pistol combinations that shoot .22LR!
Wouldn’t a pistol from the Custom Shop at Anshutz .22LR 1416 L AV P and the Anshutz .22LR 1416 Thumhole Special Rifle meet your requirements for an INTERESTING pistol and rifle pair shooting the very same caliber round? In fact built using sister barrel blanks just differing slightly in length! Might we’ll be accurate too! Lol!
I know, I know…limit yourself to just airguns!
So I’ll toss out any of the DAQ air Pistols and rifles with matching calibers.
And last but not least the DAQ the .25, pistols that can also have .22 or maybe even .177 barrels screwed into the breech as long as each barrel leade is properly made and each barrel is witnessed marked for exact (re)installation.
But I’ll go back to all the .22LR pistol rifle combinations beyond the Anshutz line that exist and will exist for years to come!
Thanks again for the fun head scratcher!
shootski
Wow, so much for the Bourne and Bond movies with snipers assembling a gun then getting off a deadly accurate first shot. It’s not just a matter of resighting the scope. My M1 gunsmith, who is a two-time winner of the Nathan Hale Cup at Camp Perry for top civilian shooter, told me that you want to take a gun apart as infrequently as you can to preserve accuracy. Apparently, it takes awhile for the parts to settle down into the right configuration. Incidentally, I read a memoir of a Navy SEAL who wrote of how their commander rousted them out on a surprise night mission to see at what range they could get a guaranteed first shot. They tried for a shot at 800 yards through a window and hit the sill.
The assessment of the combat accuracy of the AR confirms what I’ve heard. Without the TLC of the range, you shouldn’t expect too much. I was reading a report from a guy who was deeply involved in the adoption of the M27 rifle by the Marines, and he mentioned that the military’s accuracy standard for the AR is something like 3 MOA.
Not about airguns but on the general theme of takedowns, some of you may recall the story of the young guy I know who was unable to turn in homework assignments or even to get out of bed and take showers. Then, he surprised everyone by joining the army. Last weekend, he graduated from basic training with flying colors and was one of three people in his company to qualify as expert in marksmanship. Apparently all of his practice with airsoft counted for something. The father is now as pleased as he could be with his prodigal son. Cue the song, “I’ll Make a Man Out of You” from the soundtrack to the movie, Mulan.
Also on the subject of takedowns, my cast is coming off in three weeks, and I’ll be interested to see how my shooting is affected. Based on dry firing at targets with my finger, the firing sequence is still intact in my mind. We’ll see how the hands respond. But it will be awhile before I can resume shooting my B30 offhand. When they replaced my cast during a recent appointment, my left arm was shriveled down to nothing, and it looked like Frankenstein with a lot of sutures.
Matt61
Matt61,
Best wishes on your arm getting back to normal. Thank you for the update on your former protégé. I think that a few of us were holding our breath,… or conversely,… not holding it! 😉 I am glad that it all turned out well.
It has been proven that video games can have positive effects. Me?,.. not a real fan of them. I am sure the paint ball practice had some positive effect.
Chris
Thanks. Another three weeks for my arm. I gave the kid my two airsoft rifles, so maybe I can take some credit for his shooting.
Matt61
I have a Marlin Model 1894 in .357 magnum that shoots pretty well. It prefers 125 grain JHP bullets. I bought it when I still had my Dan Wesson Model 15-6, which I literally wore out years ago. And, no, the Marlin is no long range tack driver, but does fine to at least 50 yards.
I also have an ancient (made about 1930 per Savage) Savage pump action tube magazine take down rifle with an octagon barrel. Open sights only, but a good shooter and fire .22 rimfire. Has a large knurled knob that, when removed detaches the stock, and the action easily. Good to 50 yards. Maybe not any more with my old eyes, but would group well for me at 50 yards when I was younger.
Crosman, please return the “Bugout Kit” with a 1322 with quick detachable stock, and I will buy one.Would be nicer with a steel breech, but I’ve installed three of those on Crosman airguns with good results.
This may have been mentioned above, but silencers on the end of break barrels seem like a gimmick. Perhaps in super magnum break barrels they make a difference, but I don’t think they do most of the time. I’d love to see some testing on this.
Rambler,
Ahh,… but let us not forget the all important marketing rule,…. the “COOL” factor. Add in some neon colored insets and fiber optics sights and who could resist one? 😉 LOL
I think you nailed it there Chris.
In my gamo experience no. They are pretty lousy.
In my hw97 experience yes.
Im trying to find a way to record the sound with enough fidelity to capture it.
The mechanical noise overwhems your ears and most mics arent capable of recording impulse noise.
If you can get some good test results, I’d love to see them.
I have a Browning 22 breakdown rifle. The scope and action and stock are one piece the barrel and forgrip are the other. It comes apart with a 1/4 turn. I actually had it for thirty years and never took it apart. Then I spotted one in a gun shop and they called it a Browning breakdown rifle. I was suprised at the price. The one I have is in predict condition except for a little damage at the scope mount. I purchased a new scope and found it to be extreamly accurate. I don’t really need to take it apart. But it dose not seem to change much when I did. I actually don’t shoot it very often. And now that I know it’s value I keep it in a separate gun safe.
Cocking in both directions sounds great, for an underlever or sidelever. I dont want to always pull down. It might not be practical in real life, but i dont know.
Pistol/rifle same caliber
Many years go I acquired a S&W model 29 – .44 magnum and loved it – still do. After a time, I bought a Marlin carbine same caliber
Didn’t work at all. Good loads for the rifle were way too hot for a pistol. To my thinking it was too dangerous having rifle only cartridge that would fit my pistol. Rifle would keyhole at 5 yards with what I considered safe loads . Sold it after trying for a year to find a compromise. If they came out with a rifle that would stabilize a relatively slow moving bullet, I might try again. Probably not – haven’t shot a powder burner since I got hooked on airguns.
les,
Welcome to the blog.
B.B.