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American Zimmerstutzen

An American Zimmerstutzen: Part 1

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↓ 165 comments

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

American Zimmerstutzen
What in the world is this?

A history of airguns

This report covers:

  • Firearm
  • Hand made
  • Covered in “charms”
  • How does it work?
  • Where are we going with this?
  • Summary

Today I have something so strange there are no words for it. I titled this report, An American Zimmerstutzen, simply because Whatizit wouldn’t attract many readers. But that’s what I wanted to call it. What in the world is this strange little gun and why does it even exist?

American Zimmerstutzen size
It’s not that big, as the Red Ryder shows.

Firearm

First, this is a firearm. It uses .22 caliber blank cartridges to launch what I was told are .22 caliber lead pellets. That won’t work very well because .22 caliber pellets are not really .22 caliber. More on that later.

American Zimmerstutzen receiver top
Looking down from the top on the receiver. Doesn’t look like anything I’ve ever seen!

American Zimmerstutzen receiver right
Does this right-side view clear it up?

Hand made

Next the gun is almost entirely made by hand. And I do mean hand — as in no machine tools. Files, mostly. Another big story.

Covered in “charms”

No, they aren’t charms, but I don’t know what else to call them. Medallions? Escutcheons? Jooles? When I point some of them out to you, you’ll start to see what I mean.

American Zimmerstutzen butt
There are lots of them, but what are they?

American Zimmerstutzen medallion
This medallion from the left side of the butt is a big clue.

How does it work?

The blank is set off and gas from it gets behind the projectile, launching it. Sound simple enough, doesn’t it? Well, folks, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet!

Where are we going with this?

I don’t know! I haven’t worked up the courage to shoot it yet. I bought the blanks, but I wanted to understand the gun better before I started to shoot it.

Well, there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. I don’t know if you remember that I hate being lied to, but the pawn shop that sold this gun lied through their teeth when they listed it. I’m going to save that story for another time, but I will give you a great big clue.

American Zimmerstutzen hang tag
This is a huge clue, but it’s not what you think.

Summary

I could tell you a lot more about this gun today, but instead I want you guys to talk about it. I only know what I know because I’ve been studying the gun for many months, and you guys often come up this thinks I never thought of. I don’t want to stifle that.

That should keep you talking all weekend.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.
See Full Bio

165 thoughts on “An American Zimmerstutzen: Part 1”

  3. G’day BB,
    I would get someone to run a nitric acid test on that “gold”. If true the rest maybe silver…I can’t see any rust.
    Got to be made in an English speaking country “VICTORY” etc.
    It certainly looks a “custom made”.
    875897 that is a lot of guns manufactured or some ones telephone number
    Cheers Bob

  4. B.B.,

    I think it has a built in pellet mold. Or does it swage them right on the gun? That way they will always fit the barrel nicely.

    The .22 blank cartridge is just to ignite a good charge of black powder that will get the pellet going hypersonic.

    It looks like the gun had a ram rod at one time.

    It reminds me of a steam engine I made from the junk pile out back when I was a kid. The steam engine worked though. Not sure about this gun.

    The stock looks a little like an old Marlin design, the trigger looks like a musket trigger or a model 1900 Winchester .22. Or it could be a Flobert rifle that went through a space and time warp.

    The gun from the left side and the trigger has a familar look to it but I can’t place it.

    Would love to get my hands on it for a better look see.

    You really know how to set up a good mystery.

    Hope you are doing well.

    Don

    • GF,

      I saw you post that you got your new 392, but haven’t been able to keep up on posts since then. ( still running my brother around to his Chemo appointments) Are you having any sighting issues with it using iron sights?

      Half

      • Halfstep
        Well how can I say this. It feels like I remember it as a kid when held other than I have to place the bottom of the butt of the stock up high on my shoulder to get the line of sight right with open sights.

        I’m thinking the shape of the stock is more suited for a younger smaller shooter. It is hard to get the line of sight right with open sights.

        But I have to say at 25 yards I have the rear sight set at about a 1/16″ up off the barrel and no problem with point of aim (POA) to point of impact (POI) at the target with Crosman Premier pellets and hollow points or JSB 15 and 18 grain pellets. Don’t have any other .22 caliber pellets right now to try.

        It’s not that accurate of a gun compared to my pcp’s and spring guns I have right now though. Getting about 1 inch group’s at 25 yards with open sights.

        I put the Air Venturi intermount and my Hawke scope and a UTG scope on and pretty much same results of group size. And yes the breech mounted Air Venturi intermount is way better than the Crosman mounts that go on the barrel. And then when scoped. Now the line of sight happens naturally. Basically normal shouldering and seeing through the scope right.

        And I tryed different pumps and it is making good power. But it’s not a 50 yard gun; well mine anyway. But mine is the most accurate at 3 pumps. If I go more pumps groups start opening up. I even tried putting a couple drops of oil down the barrel. Same results.

        I come to the conclusion that it does shoot like I remember from the one I had as a kid. It will go through a tin can no problem at 25 yards and even 50 yards. So the power is there. But the accuracy diminishes out past about 40 yards. It will hit tin cans and aluminum cans all day long out to 40 yards. Which is the distance we shot at when we was kids. And of course squirrel and rabbits and pest birds.

        So all in all yes it’s nice to get a 392 back in my hands. But I can say I still enjoy the pcp’s we have today compared to the 392. Imagine if I could go back in time and show up with my .25 Condor SS and my buddy’s have a try with it. I bet they would be so excited that I can’t say those words here on the blog what the response and words would be.

        But all in all it’s good to have a 392 again.

        • GF1

          I’m glad you’re enjoying it and can remember enough about the gun to be able to say that they are still about the same as back then. I never had one as a kid, or any other guns, for that matter, but after a number of guys here had talked the gun up, I bought one to keep in my truck for when plinking opportunities present themselves away from home. The sighting issues have put a damper on that, so far. When I asked for feedback on this before nobody replied, so I thought I had a defective gun. Not so sure,now.

          Just to make sure that I am following you, you’re saying that the butt of the gun has to be held unnaturally high in the shoulder pocket to get your eye low low enough on the comb to shoot at reasonable distances? That’s what I have to do with mine if I want to shoot anything with the rear sight adjusted down more than 3/16ths from the barrel. If that’s right and it turns out to be a quirk of the gun, because it’s meant for younger shooters, I may do some woodworking on my stock to lower the comb. I would really like to be able to use my Williams peep sight instead of a scope, since the gun will be knocking around in my truck and, as you noted, doesn’t really have pinpoint long range accuracy anyway.

          Am I understanding you correctly? And thanks so much for the help.

          Half

          • Halfstep
            Yep pretty much the way I see it too.

            The stock is not ergonomic for certain shooters.

            It’s a solid gun for sure. Right now if I was in control of Crosman the 392 would get a Maximus breech and barrel and a Marauder stock. They would then have the pumper we all have been talking about minus the shroud and baffles the Marauder has. And of course the trigger.

            And speaking of the trigger. The 392 is similar to the Maximus, Discovery trigger in the way of the sear spring. I did lighten the pressure of that spring in my 392. It did help the trigger pull. The trigger pull was rediculously heavy. That did help accuracy.

            All I can say now is I do like it. But if it could turn it into a modern equiped pumper I would like it more.

            Man just think if some of us here on the blog worked at Crosman right now and had some pull in how things go there. Ain’t it a shame when all the other red tape gets in the way of making a good gun.

            What us poor air gunners have to put up with. Shame, shame, shame.

              • Chris
                Not much modding can be done to them. Your pretty well locked in with the barrel soldered on. Which I might say is excellent by Crosman/Benjamin. Like that old Benjamin pump pistol I have.

                You can open up the transfer port hole in the valve a bit and mod the trigger. But no barrel or breech changes or transfer port orafice size change. There’s things that can be done to the valve as well as pump head space and such. But the gun makes power now. It just needs a better barrel to make accuracy.

                So if your a modder this one ain’t the best choice to go places with. It’s a get what you see solid old school pumper is the way I see it. Which is not a bad thing. You just have to shoot it in it’s usable limits. Then it’s a very fine gun as it is.

  6. BB,

    That inscription is from the Trenton watch company, Ney Jersey, which existed between 1885 and 1908. About 1934000 watches were made which places this piece at around 1895.

    The rifle is probably from slightly earlier. I would estimate it around 1870 when there was quite a flurry of innovations in gun design.. This gun looks as a proof of concept.

    I will look whether I can get some more info from the design of the triggerguard, barrel and chamber. They were probably lifted from another gun,

    Regards,

    August

      • Don’t worry RR, I am sure August just made that up 😉

        As it is clearly proof that the native Americans had experimented with firearms before the Europeans came around.

        They probably had help from the atlanteans, because some of the symbols such as the octagons are atlantean in origin.

        It has such a strange appearance to us because it actually does not use gunpowder at all. But uses a process that we now know as the Bohr-Rothstein mass drive.

        Carel

    • August,

      I think I can make out the words “PHILADELPHIA” and “WATCH” and maybe “CASE” on that 5-petaled plate (along with the more obvious, “WARRANTED TEN YEARS).
      How did you identify it as a Trenton, NJ company.

      Also, is that the back or front cover of a pocket watch that has been reformed into that shape or was it used originally, somehow, by the manufacturer in that shape?

      Half

          • Half,

            I found that image on eBay, the description said it was gold filled whatever that means, but this is a different item than the one B.B. has. They made many of those and may have even made some out of gold, I am going to guess copper brass or other plated or even gold covered metals.

            Mike

            Edit to add, I am not sure about the cover in the pictures it looks like the front cover.

            Edit to add, looking again yes it is the back cover.

  7. BB,

    WOW! I haven’t seen an Utopian Atomizer in ages! Not many of these made it to Earth and most of them were destroyed in the Neanderthal Revolt. Of course the pawn shop dealer was lying through his teeth. He was absolutely clueless about it, but he had to try to talk the price up somehow. If he had an idea what it was he would have never sold it. Well, you certainly have something unique. Be careful with it though. It can make mincemeat of a M1 Abrams.

  8. B.B.,

    I am speechless. First, I can not even believe that you possess this. It looks like something found in a museum. Second, never in a million years would I ever expect this to be in a pawn shop. You are soooooo lucky!

    The inlay work is amazing. So well done and precise yet at the same time clearly showing handmade.. All of the inlays have rounded edges that “flow” into the wood. All are raised just a bit. It would appear that any hand cuts and so on were filed and then polished (absence of file marks). This person was as much a wood worker/carver as they were a metal worker.

    (Hint for others,.. there is some inscription just ahead of the receiver on the octagon barrel.)

    Last, I love gadgets and gadgetry. If hand made, all the better. I would not want to venture a guess on any of it.

    The condition is amazing. Nice patina to the parts and not a spec. of rust. Again, hard to believe that you would ever come across something like this, or anyone for that matter.

    Ok,…. well I guess that I was not so “speechless” after all. More like drooling, slurred words and confusion,… 🙂

    Good Day to one and all,….. Chris (a.k.a. the Grinch,… as I am green with envy!) 😉

  10. Now that is something completely different!!!

    Can see why you have been studying it for months B.B. – it would take that long to make sense of all the bits an pieces. Don’t suppose that it came with a detailed owners manual eh? 🙂

    As to the “medallions” I don’t have a clue – seen a car that someone decorated with all manners of lights, stickers, dangley thingies, flags and plush toys… maybe he was a previous owner of this gun.

    Would love to get my hands on this American Zimmerstutzen to check it out… I am next in line after Chris LOL!!

    Happy Friday all!
    Hank

  11. Whoever built the breech mechanism certainly didn’t believe in the KISS principle. Don’t think I’d ever go cheek to cheek with this gun. This is one to shoot with a string on the trigger from a distance.

    Brent

  13. B.B.

    I’m so pleased that the surgery was successful and that you’ve surprised the surgeons. God is good.

    I recall seeing a similar larger rifle, black powder propellant, that was very exotic and ornate to my 17-year-old eye. The owner of the gun shop said that it was a German schutzen (sp?) rifle used for competitive shooting sports. As I recall his rifle, it seems like a forerunner of an Olympic free rifle.

    I also recall seeing a Parlor rifle that was designed to be used for target shooting indoors.

    After those guesses, I’ve run dry. Waiting on you to shed some light.

    Blessings,
    Dan

  14. BB,

    Ridgerunner, I completely agree with you. I am the bore in the party at this moment. Your Utopian Atomizer is just a lost more fun than the facts, so we promote these to alternative facts and you can just ignore them.

    The medallions are all parts from watch cases as far as I can see from the material and forms. The conversion then probably has been done by a competent watchmaker/gunsmith.

    The rifle was previously a single shot (See Chris USA remark on the barrel inscription) bolt action. The bolt has probably been converted en placed more to the front of the rifle to convert it to a repeating bolt action rifle. The caps were in the bolt.

    Does anybody know this rifle? The pistol grip looks non American to me. The bolt has three circular grooves at the end and the trigger and trigger guard are placed far more to the back than is comfortable. I am not well enough versed in these 19 century guns to be able to know offhand what the original was.

    Regards,

    August

    • August,

      You did it to me again! While contemplating this in the shower I came to pretty much the same conclusions you put forth here.

      I am not sure of the original make and model of this rifle, but it appears to be an early .22 bolt action rifle that could have possibly been converted from a side lock muzzle loader.

  16. Long time reader, first time commenting. Have to agree with August. Former pawnbroker, worker not owner. Hey,we were Beeman dealers. Started my habit!
    Back then there was “rolled gold” plating was used for watch cases. Real gold,real thin. Used for durability purposes. And price!
    If when testing for gold you must get past the plating or it will test good. Hard to do without damaging the item.
    The silver is probably “nickel silver”. Low silver content, like coins. Used for durability purposes. Some were solid some were plated.
    this was probably solid as it would be too tacky to use silver plate.
    Any pawn shop should know this. If they don’t I could use a job!
    Very nice repurposing of broken timepieces. Really cool stuff!
    Glad you’re back. Take care.

      • B.B.,

        Yep. I used to haunt every pawn shop within a 50 mile radius looking for vintage guitars incorrectly priced too low because pawn brokers rarely know much about musical instruments.

        A pawnbroker might or might not be knowledgeable about coins, watches, firearms or professional tools. But all pawnbrokers know their gem stones, semi-precious stones, silver, platinum and gold. There are a few used jewelry stores around here that are essentially pawn shops that deal only with fine jewelry, collectible costume jewelry, watches and perhaps coins and collectible stamps. Nothing big.

        Michael

  18. BB,

    I believe I know how the lockworks operate. It works in the conventional way with the additional ability of telling an opponent that he is about to be shot.

    See photo below.

    Half

  20. This one is for the experts. But, which ones?Antiques Roadshow?MOMA? N.R.A. museum? B.B., you may have a national treasure, but for whoose country? I cant see any wear marks from normal use, and Heath Robinson was known for the needlessly complex, I would defer to August. I think it is folk art based on one or more weapons, and it appears to have decorative elements on the stock like a Native American war trophy weapon. Too steam punk
    to be Indian maybe. The trigger, from the photo, wont have much, if any travel before it hits the guard. It doesnt look comfortable to shoot, I wouldn’t know how besides.One to look at? Very Kewell.
    Robert

  21. B.B.,
    I’m glad you made it through surgery successfully, and are back with us again. =>
    As for this gun, although it stinks that the seller lied to you, you still wound up with an amazing gun!
    I have to admit I’ve never seen anything quite like this; it does remind me a little bit of some of the guns
    I saw in the Cody Museum, some of the Native American guns that they decorated with brass tacks.
    But these embellishments are much more diverse and there’s a lot more of them.
    This is what I call a “Coffee Table Gun,” as in, when people come over for a visit,
    you put this out on your coffee table so that can all gawk at it and say things like,
    “Juswhatintheheckisthatthingyagothere?” =)~
    I think it’s pretty cool. =>
    take care & God bless,
    dave

  22. Mr Gaylord:

    With today’s posting, you’ve truly gone all “Ian McCollum” on us. This looks like something I’d expect to see on his forgotten weapons channel and not on your blog.
    Are the two of you planning to team up together with the weird and wonderful from yesteryear? What’s next? BB’s Friday videos of odd airguns? 🙂 🙂

    Glad to see you came through surgery and are back with us today.

    Respectfully,
    William Schooley

  23. BB,
    Hi, I am a Canadian from QC that spend the winter in Port St.Lucie, FL. I am new to the sport of Air gun. Would you know a club or a place in my area where I could practice the sport and have some guidance.

    Thank you for any information and sorry for my funny english (french Canadian)
    Yves

    • Yves,

      Welcome too. You might try asking around at local gun stores to see if they know of any. They might know of shooting clubs and ranges that also have air gun clubs within the powder burner crowd. Call range owners. Call 4-H and maybe the Boy Scout’s to see if the leaders know of any. It is tuff in Ohio too to find much.

      What are you currently shooting and what would you like to shoot? Depending on your living circumstance, most any air gun can be shot safely indoors with a proper pellet trap and back stop.

      Chris

      • Chris USA

        I am from the powder burner crowd at home. But here in the US I can not buy a rifle being an alien. Lot easier to go AIR and I am ready for the switch over to air gun.
        What I would like to shoot? I am waiting to find a club and see from there what they suggest : is there restriction may be and also I want to be able to import properly the arm back in Quebec.

        Thanks for your reply
        Yves

      • Chris,
        I gave your question a second tough ( what I would like to shoot ) Here is what I think: If I go hand gun I like very much what BB wrote about the Venturie’s V10. If I go rifle I like the Sig ASP20 but without the silencer ( not permitted in Canada ) I have to think when I return home
        Yves

        • Yves,

          We have a few reader’s that are also regular poster’s that live north of the U.S. border. Perhaps they can offer some Canada friendly items for you to consider? You might get a hold of Pyramid Air too. They might have someone more familiar with export marketing legalities,.. Canada being specific, and can offer options to fit the bill.

          From what I have gathered,… if you are already into firearms in Canada, then you can get about any airgun you want (minus a silencer). Other than that, the gun has to be of a lower FPE level if one is not firearm permitted. Best wishes going forwards.

          Chris

  24. B.B.,

    I believe the tag says “golp,” not “gold.” Have you acid tested it for golp?

    All of the fabulous baubles and doodads remind me of American Indian trade rifles, although this is too complex to be one of those. Maybe a reverse-Indian trade rifle? A colonist trade rifle?

    I see brass and pewter, not gold and silver, but I am color blind, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

    Glad you are back in the saddle,

    Michael

  27. I had to laugh at the picture of the Morse code key, I am a amateur radio operator.
    I looked at the gun the key. Over and over. Could it be?
    So I looked it up.
    The Utopia Telegraph and wire company produced these for their traveling lineman.
    When they found a break in the telegraph they would attach a wire to the ramrod and fire the wire across the line.
    Unfortunately due to distant lighting strikes, built-up static and poor grounding when the operator used the key it completed the circuit.
    You can guess what happened to the operator, and horse if he was mounted.
    Quickly earning it’s nickname, utopian atomizer.
    The ramrod was vaporized.
    Production quickly stopped.
    Why this telegrapher choose to bedazzle the stock is a mistery but he dit dit, dit dit.

  28. B.B.,

    Im surprised that you could build this device so quickly!
    I KNOW where the basic “design” came from! You saw it during your anethesia induced dillerium.
    The blade on the right side of the stock gave it away as well as the scimitar on the wrong side of the stock. Much of the rest of the escutcheons, joowles, medallions and other inlays are actually from the shoes of the Old Guard that were worn out; you know the tow taps, heel guard and side clicks. The “rifle” itself was a designed as an attempt to supplant the M-16s that were to replace the Garands currently in favor with the Tomb of the Unknown’s guard detail.
    Fortunately during the shootout that ensure the presentation Sig M-17s had no difficulty in laying down the law!

    Glad your back! Get over those anethisia induced dreams…

    shootski

  29. shootski,

    Oh, my “dreams” went way beyond this gun! Years ago when I was in three hospitals for 3 months they use dilaudid for pain control and it made me both paranoid and have hallucinations. I was reading the acoustic tiles on the ceiling of the room as ads for cheap broken tools. I got angry at the hospital for allowing the workers fo put those ads up there!

    B.B.

    • B.B.,

      I remember your writing about that at the time. You must be allergic to Dilaudid/Exalgo. My mother came out of anesthesia on a Demerol drip and was completely delusional for three days. Paranoia, hallucinations, false physical sensations. Some minor side effects lingered for six months. Turns out, she is allergic to Demerol.

      An overdose of such a medication with a patient who is also allergic can result in permanent brain damage, including catatonic stupors or comas. Both Peter Green (founder of Fleetwood Mac), Syd Barrett (founder of Pink Floyd), and a friend of mine from high school likely suffered from developing allergies to LSD and then taking a huge amount of the stuff.

      Dilaudid/Exalgo should be added to your medical records for allergies.

      Michael

  30. B.B.,

    Wait. Could it be? Could this be the winner of the Pentagon contract to replace the M4?

    Also, one of the coyotes that prowls the large FAA facility/nature reserve area behind my house looks an awful lot like a chupacabra. ;^)

    Michael

  31. BB,

    Ridgerunner, I do not think that it is converted from a sidelock percussion as normally that type of lock has two though going bolts which screw from the opposing site of the stock to anchore the lock in the stock. No holes are visible for that on the opposing site of the stock.

    However, the triggerguard, trigger and the way the trigger pivot is anchored looks like earlier guns than a single bolt action from around 1860.

    Seeing the size of this gun and the placement of the trigger could this bean converted children’s gun?

    Regards,

    August

  32. B.B.,

    Maybe this is “forbidden” to ask?,…. or maybe impolite to ask?,….. but I am going for it anyways,….. I never have been one to bend to being politically correct.

    I would be interested to know how the negotiations went. (you know,… the back and forth. The discussion. The barter, etc.), and what you were able to get it for? Everyone reading this article is wondering the same,… you know it.

    If I were to ever run up on this and knowing what I know today,….. I would go 200 just for the mere fact that it is such an oddity. I would (also) be very suspect that it might be a very rare piece, while knowing nothing about it and hoping that my gut instinct might really pay off. While it could be,… it just as well could be a “one of” that some no-name machinist/woodworker had put together after about a year of mucking about.

    At any rate,…. there it is. I am tossing it out there.

    Chris

      • Don,

        Perhaps? Perhaps not? Still,…. anyone of us would have loved to have been in that position. It would be interesting to know how the “Godfather” handled the negotiations. Me? I am afraid that my copious amounts of drool, shaking hands and stuttering speech would have been a dead giveaway as to my interest in said item. 😉

        Chris

          • Don,

            Sometime,.. when we have more time,… you will have to explain the benefits of paying more than the asking price (in a non-bidding situation). In reality,… I would be a bit “cooler” customer than giving my interest away is such an obvious manner. I will admit though,…. it would have been a serious challenge to “maintain my cool”. 😉

            Of course,… B.B. has much more experience in such matter’s, and in that,…. makes my inquiry all the more poignant.

            Chris

  35. B.B.,

    Watch case makers of rolled gold cases would often grade them as 10 years (10 microns), 20 years (20 microns), or, rarely, 40 years (40 microns). The years were what one could hope for before the edges would begin to “brass” from wear.

    Some of the other charms are recognizable shapes, others not. Still, they remind me of those small, white metal Milagro medals from Latin America. I believe this is of Latin American origin. Indeed, I am confident of that.

    Michael

  37. BB
    It’s from Northern Africa probably belonged to a native from there who worked in support of the French Foreign Legion if not an actual member.
    Lift the safety and pull back the bolt/ hammer to engage the sear. The safety may just pop up when hit by the hammer head being retracted. A few rounds of shot are loaded into the front when the spring loaded square cam device is rotated out of the way. A round is loaded when it is pushed into the barrel with that brass looking plunger with the cross slots on the head. Not sure how the empty blank or BB shot case? is extracted, can’t see anything.

    Now without seeing the insides or instructions I can only guess that the trigger is somehow pulled up and forward on cocking … or … it is for show only and the sear is actuated by your thumb by pushing up on the block at the end of it. He too may have had an extra thumb. You never know .
    The sword and knife would be standard carry equipment and the worn boot taps would come from the Legion members as well as the watch covers. Other bits and pieces could come from old saddle and rigging parts or captured enemy equipment.

    Glad the doctor fixed you up just fine .

    Don’t worry about checking the M17 with a light pellet, mine just arrived today. Speaking of which the SIG blister pack was a total surprise. I was all ready with my scissors and pocket knife but when I removed the blister pack from the display box the upper half just lifted right off and it remains a nice storage container. Talk about a total surprise. SIG has done it again and solved one of the most irritating things associated with a new airgun, unpacking it…. THANK YOU SIG SAUER !

    Speaking of SIG I see they donated some beautiful custom M17s to the Tomb Guard Sentinels who guard the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Way to go Sig.

    Bob M

      • BB
        Totally understand. Opening the box and ‘plastic enclosure’ becomes a non-event all of a sudden. The outer box designer must have been a student of Origami. Interlocking flaps, display rack handle and backup closing flap. Excellent design for display and storage.
        Bob M.

        • Bob
          Sorry but got to say I like the good old fashioned boxes that guns come in.

          What can I say.

          Here’s the question. Why did the plastic enclosures come about.

          Two reasons I can think about.
          1) makes it harder for someone to open a package to steal it from a store. Or conceal it in the package to get it out of the store.

          2) now it can’t be returned as new because it’s been opened.

          And yes it could go farther beyond what I mentioned. Maybe. Everybody is going “recycle” now days. But don’t people save thier packaging thier guns come in?

          But seriously. I like to keep the boxes my guns come in. And yes the paperwork and such that comes with them. If you go to sell them it makes for a better presentation. It’s like getting them old muscle cars with the owners manual, sales slip and build sheet still in the glove box. Documentation is cool.

          Documentation and presitation. The heck with that plastic wrap stuff.

          But then again. Show a picture of the Sig enclosure your talking about. I’m guessing it’s something different than what is a normal blister pack?

          • GF1
            The third reason is to put it on display so customers can look directly at it.

            Why would anyone want to return a unopened airgun? You might want to keep it unopened as a collectable but you would need to use it to find a problem. I don’t think they require it to be unopened to return it for a problem. The blister pack is disposable. P/A sends refurbs in a plain cardboard box.

            I accidently dumped Google Play from my phone and lost my ability to e mail pictures I take. Need to fix that. Its a rectangular molded tray that the pistol sits in and the top is just like a regular box top that slides down on it reaching the bottom. Once covered it slides into a regular cardboard box with cutouts to see the pistol through.

            Bob M

            • Bob
              Why return a unopened air gun? Maybe it was received as a gift to let’s say a kid. And maybe the parents didn’t want the kid to have it. Or maybe someone decided they didn’t want it. They decided they wanted something different.

              And some places will knock off a given fee on a returned product if the package it comes in is open. But that may apply only if it was used I think.

  38. BB,

    Bob: You are pulling our legs. It then should be made from one of the French military rifles of that period (Chassepot, Gras or Lebel) who all have different bolts and different bore sizes.

    The Arabians mostly incorporated the older French/enlish percussion and flintlock locks in their jezails which were quite accurate rifles by the way.

    Regards,

    August

  39. B.B.,

    You Sir! Are a very wise man.

    LISTEN UP BLOG READERS!

    B.B. has CLICK BAITED US!!!!!

    Even Coach Schooley and August fell for it!

    Doubt that!
    Here is my theory : Tom was worried that while he was in a DOWN Status his blog readership stats would be reduced. So he dug out a piece with lots of MISTery and potential conundrums for us to debate.

    shootski

    PS: MIST is a German word ;^)

  41. A co-conspirator ?
    You all are forgetting one thing. BB said the entire rifle was ‘almost’ made entirely by hand so it may only resemble other rifles. They still have places all around that area that make firearms in small shops. Did you not see the crescent moon on the left side of the stock.?
    Oh by the way, he made it for his young son when he reached their age for manhood at the time.

    Bob M

  42. My guess on that thing..
    First, the receiver comes from a “normal” .22 / flobert rifle. The stock probably, too.
    Second: the right contraption outside the bolt house and fires the blank. The pressure is vented inside the bolt and pushes the projectile (which is Loaded into the barrel) forward. Thus, the projectile does not experience a sharp pressure peak.

    In Europe, many gunshop apprentices had to made a small bore rifle as part of becoming a certified worker in the field. Such a work is called “Gesellenstück” in Germany. Many of those guns had unusual mechanisms, as they served as a proof of the workers skill, back in the days they were taken with the people to job interviews.

    • Mel 83
      If the led shot was shoved down the barrel it may block the pressure port. Notice the square block on the barrel adjacent to the outboard ‘push button’. Although the ram rod may have been calibrated to prevent that. By the way his son was probably involved in the making as an apprentice
      Bob M.

  43. BB,

    It looks from the worn surfaces and the placement of the connection of the side contraption that the bolt uses the backlash of the gun to load the blancs or blancs with a ball.

    Blancs with no blackpowder and a ball exist in Europe for zimmerstutzen.

    Regards,

    August

  44. I still want to know if the gun BB is reporting on ever got shot.

    And again like I said above in my example of a parlor gun.

    What were these guns used for? Just to get loaded up with ornaments and talked about.

    Why did they load them up with ornaments. Or should I say. Why did they take the time to load them up with the ornaments? Presitation of the gun they made as it’s been mentioned here. That it just adds “bling” to the gun.

    What was the significance of what the gun is? Was that a fad that happened back then. Or did they really do it to promote what they made as something that was different to be sought after over the other guns people put together at the time. In other words what made this gun more sought after than another in that time period. Was it just nothing more than a sales pitch?

    • GF1
      Ok here is a picture of the Sig Sauer M17, and probably others too, packaging box. Preformed two part plastic that contains the pistol and is then slid into the cardboard box with an open display cut out. No staples glue or sonic-sealed together plastic.

      A scary thing happened here. When I transferred the picture from my phone to my laptop storage. I started to name it and this popped up as a suggestion “Sig Sauer X5 parts display”. Now how did the computer know what was in the picture ? All I wrote was Sig ! …. I don’t think I like what’s going on with these algorithms.
      Bob M

      • Bob
        Probably because the picture still is copied and gives a address to that picture of where it came from or how it was named.

        And yep I do like the package the Sig came in. It can double as case or even a display case. Nice. That needs done by more manufacturers instead of the blister packages you have to cut open.

      • Bob M,

        I think the how they do it is getting more complex all the time.
        It is the why they are doing it that has never changed; just like in the pre Internet age INTELLIGENCE
        is everything! It isn’t just knowing your ENEMY and their intentions. The meat of Intel collecting is to have as many of the pieces of the puzzle so you have a hope of answering any question with a high probability of accuracy.

        What’s the question! That is the QUESTION!

        To eat cookie, or NOT to eat cookie; there is no question! Cookie Monster

        Wieder wird’s have never been spoken.

        shootski

        • Shootski
          I figured it out.
          In my photos section I have a picture of a Sig Sauer X5 open parts diagram, IPC pic, and it’s also identified in those terms. It seems to have picked up on that entry as a suggestion when I entered “Sig” They are right next to each other now.

          My concern was that somehow the picture I took was analyzed and evaluated to determine what was in it by a super computer without my knowledge. It would make you leery of things appearing in the background of a photo wouldn’t it.

    • RR
      Now that’s cool stuff. Too bad they don’t have a video showing it working.

      Looks like it’s pretty well made.

      And your link shows multiple pictures when you open it.

      • GF1,

        Check out the site a bit more. There is a video showing assembly and firing. I am doing my best to talk Kathy into letting me have one. This thing is awesome!

        • RR,

          I am confused. Does this the remove the hand from the required action? Reaching/aiming behind oneself would seem awkwards. Is there mirrors or lasers involved? What if the shot is a bit off? Ouch! I think that I will be staying with the “non-powered, non-firing, non-accessorized roll thank you! 😉

          Chris

          • Chris,

            I am so sorry that you are so limited with your abilities. Perhaps my living in the woods enhances my flexibility when required. After all, bears do go in the woods. 😉

        • RR,

          After further research,… I do believe that this is a “combo” invention from “across the pond” and likely Bidet inspired in that it also combines the use of water. I still do not like the idea,….. 😉 Just sayin’.

          Chris

            • RR,

              Pretty sure that B.B. did a feature on that puppy. However,…. I do not recall him ever mentioning that it is intended to be pointed in the rear/downward facing position while on the,…

              Now,… on the other hand,…. if this thing could shoot a steady, unbroken stream of paper,…. say 20-40 ft.,…. then this might have some (serious) appeal to the high school-er crowd on a Saturday night of debauchery. 😉 Not that I would know anything of such matters,….. just sayin’.

              Chris

  48. All,

    On the $5000 x 5 times give-away at P.A.,….. if I am understanding correctly,….

    Q: To enter,…. all you have to do is to have a current “wish list” created? That’s all? No special upload link?

    I read the “rules” several times and that appears to be all there is to it.

    Chris

        • Chris,

          I don’t know. I have never given it any thought. I can “have” (get to test) anything I want, so I don’t lust after things like most people.

          I suppose I would most like an FWB 10-meter target rifle. I won’t even ask to test one because they are so expensive and I would turn it into a used gun by testing.

          B.B.

          • B.B.,

            I did ponder the erector set group of guns. No doubt, they could be made to fit like a glove,… adjustable “hamsters” and all.

            “lust”,….? Ok. I prefer “A desire for something and a willingness to work towards it and acquire said item”. Lust is too filled with fraught. I must admit though,… I have fallen victim in the past! 😉 Only human, I guess? 🙂 The Red Wolf was a look, find, drool, buy… sort of thing. Not too much lust involved. I knew what features I already wanted by hanging around here. Not a bad thing as it happens.

            Q: By the way,… have you got to shoot a Red Wolf yet in any of your outings?

            You do very well for the parameters that you have to operate within. Of course,…. your propensity to explore the oddities is what really stands out. It is nice that you have that freedom as well.

            Chris

          • BB
            Yipes. So what makes you keep shooting and talking about air guns? And I almost said guns in general. But we are on a air gun blog after all.

            It’s another drive you have I suppose.

            I can think of a few things but what’s your answer.

          • B.B.,

            FWB 10-meter is a great rifle to desire. PA could sell it as a throughly tested desirable purchase by
            The Godfather of Airguns! Tom you could even offer to sign a provenance letter of ownership…
            instant collectable! Okay, I know, I know, the problem with that ploy would be: You wouldn’t want to give it up.

            shootski

            • Shootski,

              You do not know how many times I have brought that up. You would think that a gun tested by B.B., complete with a multi-part blog, chrony testing and accuracy testing,… with different pellets mind you,…. would demand a premium. Include the targets. Apparently,… it does not work that way. At the very least,… still sell it at full retail and advertise it as a separate special item.

              Chris

  50. B.B.,

    That is really sad! You, The Godfather of Airguns of all people, should be allowed to play.
    Are you a contractor or employee?
    It may not be the case in actual fact…but then you did say UNWRITTEN RULE.

    shootski

  51. All,

    Unless I am remembering wrong (highly likely),… I could have sworn that Pyramid Air offered Sightron scopes in the (recent) past. You know,…. the really high end ones that you see in competitions. If I am imagining things,… anyone is free to say so,…..

    Chris

      • GF1,

        Thanks. I am not (totally) nuts after all. 😉 One of those would have been on my “wish list”. Odd that they discontinued it/the line. Maybe too pricey for the average P.A. crowd? Not worth carrying for the limited sales? Still,… it is nice to have upper level options if one is so inclined. I did search it and pulled up nothing a few hours ago.

        Thanks again,… Chris

        • Chris
          No problem.

          Did you see what scope Pyramyd AIR shows as a similar item. And priced about the same as the Sightron.

          /product/hawke-sport-optics-10-50×60-ed-sidewinder-rifle-scope-illuminated?a=7428

          • GF1,

            Similar???? For the cost difference,…. I would think that there IS a difference. I had thought that the Sightron scopes were/are in the $2000-3000 range-ish. By the way,…. that exact pick IS on the wish list. 🙂

            Chris

            • Chris
              All I know is alot of good features for the Hawke scope I posted the link to for how much it costs.

              I wonder how much the other turrets cost for the Hawke scope?

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