by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
The Generation II Benjamin Fortitude.
This report covers:
Through the receiver
Power adjust instructions
Testing the rifle at its lowest power
Adjusting the power down
Air Arms Falcon pellets
How is the air?
What I haven’t told you
Today we continue the velocity test of the Benjamin Fortitude Generation 2. We are doing this because Crosman has made the Fortitude velocity adjustable by the owner.
Through the receiver
The Fortitude allows the user to both adjust the velocity as well as depressurizing the rifle in case of an overfill or a need for maintenance. The optional degassing tool fits through the hollow head of the Allen screw that adjusts the velocity, so you use an Allen wrench to adjust power. It’s a regular 3/16-inch Allen wrench, and the head of the bolt that must be turned is near enough to the end of the receiver that the short end of the wrench will work. Both the power adjustment wrench and the degassing tool fit through an opening in the rear of the receiver. The Allen bolt head has been drilled out so the degassing tool will fit through, so don’t be fooled by the looks.
You are looking through the drilled-out head of the Allen screw that’s used to adjust power. The degassing tool fits through this hole. It’s hard to see. Don’t miss it.
… and God laughs! That is a non-scriptural saying that I find to be very true. The Scottish poet, Robert Burnes, said it in a different way in the poem, To a Mouse. “The best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men gang aft agley.” When I started this report I was already writing it in my head and I wanted to say to you that today would be a short report because there wasn’t much to do. Boy — was that wrong!
Power adjust instructions
The instructions for adjusting the Fortitude’s power are not in the manual. They are on a separate sheet of paper in the plastic bag with the manual and magazine. And here they are if you lose yours.
The power ajustment instructions.
Read the instructions and follow them to the letter. But because I knew better, I fooled around for some time, and had to back up and do it by the book. First, let all the tension off the hammer spring.
Testing the rifle at its lowest power
In the last velocity test I ran out of Crosman Premier Heavy pellets, so I switched to JSB Exact Heavys that averaged around 790 f.p.s. at the end of the last test. On the lowest power I got the following results.
What happened? Why did the velocity drop like that? I waited 15 seconds between each shot as I did at the end of the last report, but by shot seven I started waiting 30 seconds between shots. As you see, it didn’t change much.
So I loaded the magazine with another 10 of the same pellets and started a second string — this time with 30 seconds between shots. Let’s look.
Now I was really puzzled. And then I remembered my time at AirForce. We could not get the TalonSS to be as consistent at it’s lowest power setting. It wasn’t this bad, but it did vary more than it should. That was what inspired the MicroMeter valve and tank.
I wondered whether one turn of the power adjustment up would stabilize things. So I put one turn on the adjustment and retested with the same pellet.
The average for this string is 577 f.p.s. The spread is 34 f.p.s. which is a lot, but it’s less than either of the two previous strings. I think if I wanted to shoot this Fortitude at low power it would have to be with at least one full turn up from the lowest setting.
The instructions say for the highest power to turn the power adjustment screw 6 turns up from the lowest setting. Well, I did that and then I added an extra half turn — just in case. That was my airgunner move. The result was a rifle that would not cock! Read the instructions and follow them TO THE LETTER! I had to turn the power all the way back to the lowest setting, which is where the adjustment screw stops turning, and then carefully turn it up SIX turns and no more!
The average for this string is 809 f.p.s. at that speed this 10.34-grain pellet develops 15.03 foot pounds at the muzzle. The spread ranges from 794 to 825 — a difference of 31 f.p.s. So it’s about at stable on high power as it is on low power plus one turn up.
Adjusting the power down
Now I wanted to see what sort of power I got by turning the power adjuster one turn lower. The factory setting is 4 turns up, which is two turns down from the top and gives 790 f.p.s. with this pellet. What does one turn down give me?
This string averaged 807 f.p.s. the spread went from a low of 799 to a high of 813— a difference of 14 f.p.s. This is the tightest spread we have seen with this pellet. I’m going to leave the power set here for now.
Air Arms Falcon pellets
Next I tried some 7.33-grain Air Arms Falcon domes at this same power setting. Here is what I got.
The average for Falcons is 896 f.p.s. with a spread from 888 to 905. That’s a difference of 17 f.p.s. Given what we have seen with the first pellet I think that spread may be a tight one for this pellet.
How is the air?
The rifle was sitting at 2,800 psi when this test started. I have fired 60 shots and the gauge now reads 2,300 psi. Based on what was learned in the Part 2 testing, there are a lot more shots remaining.
What I haven’t told you
I put this little admission at the end of today’s report, though it happened in the very beginning. I knew I wanted to write about the Fortitude today and I knew I had already done the velocity test, so I thought it was time for the first accuracy test. I spent about 45 minutes trying out different scopes and mounts, only to settle on the Meopta Optika6. I had it mounted and ready to start shooting when I read Part 2 thoroughly and discovered there was still more velocity testing to be done. The good news is the scope is ready to go and it will be quick the next time.
Look at the 8th shot in each string. It’s usually the slowest shot in the string. I don’t know why it is, but that should be remembered.
The Fortitude Gen2 handles air extremely well, but it does not get tight shot strings. That may make very little difference when we get to accuracy, and I think the accuracy testing should be done at the current power setting.
We are talking about a PPP rifle here, and I believe the Fortitude is delivering. We all saw the test group that was sent with the rifle. And I established that I can handle the trigger in today’s test, so I know I am ready to move on.
105 thoughts on “Benjamin Fortitude PCP air rifle Gen2: Part 3”
When you placed at low power, did that mean the 0 preload setting? Just wondering about the range of power adjustability. If it is unstable at 0 preload, would it be stable with 1 or 2 turns from 0 preload? Our does it require the 4 turns to be stable?
Maybe I didn’t explain it very well. Yes, I was at 0 preload for the first and second strings. Then I turned one turn of thje adjustment screw toward the high end and determined that was necessary for stability at the lowest setting.
Had to read the article again to see it. I glossed over it missing that critical sentence. Thanks!
If it follows like the AirForce talon he references, the number of turns are just a guideline, not an absolute.(other than. The max number)
But you can turn it anywhere in between, to find where THE GUN WANTS TO SHOOT BEST with the pellet you choose.
A lot of people choose a velocity they want to shoot and try to make the gun shoot there.
I have always Tested through the entire range and find where the gun performs best.
And that’s my tune.
Regardless of the velocity.
That’s how I do it too.
My gun likes the 4 turns in from zero the best. And that’s with JSB and AirArms 10.34’s. It even likes the Winchester 9 grain round nose pellets.
And I did the full range of power adjusting (again) after I got the shroud to not contact the air tube. It was a night and day difference in groups after eliminating the contacting. And I tried with my barrel band back on as well as off.
I’m still getting my best groups with it off. The gun now groups like I expected it to. It’s getting nice round 3/4″ ten shot groups at 50 yards. And my spring mods on my trigger helped too.
Any links or details on your spring mods? I think I’d like to try some on mine.
It’s pretty simple. Cut about 3 coils off the spring that goes behind the trigger blade. Then find a coil spring that fits the inside diameter of the spring you just cut. Make it about a 3/16 of a inch longer. That spring will now hold the trigger forward but will have a light first stage feel.
Next take the spring that holds the safety push button in place. Bend it so it has about 5° less pressure on the sear and the safety when you have the trigger assembled again. That spring is the let off pressure when the shot goes off. That will be your second stage feel.
Be careful on that safety sear spring though. Two things can happen. First the gun won’t cock and catch the latch if your too light on pressure. The second thing is if you get it where that second stage pull is to light the that means the sear is verily catching the strike when you cock the gun. In other words if your that light you can bump the gun when its cocked and it can go off.
So don’t load no pellets when your cocking and test firing the gun until you know the gun won’t shoot until (you) pull the trigger.
I hope I didn’t make that sound more complicated than it is. Let me know what you think.
Thanks; it does sound simple and while I like to tinker, I’m thinking of holding off for now, especially this being my only real rifle (other than a 760 and my son’s Red Ryder) and my feeling a healthy dose of “it ain’t broke”!
I do have a Bandit pistol coming too, to join my P17 and 1322 and my son’s PSM45 so I’m not all that short on guns to shoot 🙂
If your a tinker I’m sure you will have no problem doing the trigger mod.
If you do and you need something just holler. I post usually everyday. You don’t have to come back to this report. You can post on the the daily report BB does.
$300 for this, that can get up to 200 shots per fill is appealing to plinking.
Or $300 for the Air Venturi Avenger.
Tough call, but will have to see how the Avenger performs.
It’s a great time to be an Airgunner.
Just to say. My regulator on my gen2 Fortitude did need to break in.
When I got my accuracy issue figured out I needed to wait between shots to keep the guns poi (point of impact) consistent. I probably got close to 400 shots through it now and I don’t have to wait between shots at all.
And another thing if I set the gun down for a long period of time and then I shoot again. The first shot is always on poi. In other words a good thing for pesting or hunting when your waiting for maybe longer periods of time between shots.
And to say man the Fortitude is quiet. I really do like the gun now once I got a few little things done to my liking.
Will be waiting for your accuracy test.
Thanks for the break-in confirmation. I suspected that it did need one.
Yep it was obvious on paper even.
Once the regulator started breaking in the groups started tightening up. It got better and better then finally stayed good.
The biggest hint that it was the regulator breaking in and not the barrel or something breaking in was the time span between shots. The more it broke in the less time it needed.
Now it needs no time between shots. I can shoot a shot and as quick as I can pull the bolt to load another shot with the mag I can shoot.
Thanks. THat is what I suspected an also what I needed to know.
That is good to hear about the regulator. How much silicone chamber oil did you add to the fill air over that time? I appreciate your comments including the trigger mods and barrel fix. – Don
Thanks and probably about 4 drops in the guns Foster fitting about 3 times over the period of 500 pellets now.
I usually add it more often on a new gun so I know I’m getting the gun lubbed up nice. After that probably about 4 drops every 1500 shots or so.
Very helpful. Thanks. – Don
Yep no problem.
You’re on a nice PCP roll, B.B. so I think I’ll post my first share anywhere of my latest airgun invention. My TalonP has two tanks now and is regulated. (Well, it’s not really a TalonP any longer, given all the mods I’ve made to it.) I re-spun my stock design (reported here: https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2016/09/2016-pyramyd-air-cup-part-1/#comment-387495) to hold a second 213 cc tank with a regulator. So my AirForce gun has two gauges like an Avenger now!
Here are some details: I got the tank and reg from JDS Airman’s “going out of business sale”, but it was set over 100 psi off spec (I know, because I have a large and very accurate Wika gauge) so I had to buy an extensive set of Belleville springs and preload washers from McMaster and reset it myself. I also had to do some work on the JDS valve stem seal to reduce creep. Next time I’ll buy a quality Ninja Paintball or Air Venturi reg!
The regulator is set to 2300 psi. and it connects to the AF tank via a braided steel hose and elbow. I drilled and tapped the regulator bonnet for the hose NPT fitting. The heat shrink tubing on the hose is to protect the gun’s frame and tank from scratches from the stainless steel hose braid, but it proved to be unnecessary because there’s plenty of clearance. The black heat shrink looks nice though (as would all black hardware but JDS ships with chintzy looking chrome) and aesthetics is also the primary purpose of my 3D-printed ASA thread protector.
The 213 cc AF tank is way overkill as a plenum (though PCP plenums are commonly undersized), but both 213 cc tanks contribute air after “falling off the regulator” so it’s still an unconventional but useful way to store air that adds shots before a fill is necessary while also adding regulation. I originally tuned it using boxed 22 cal. Premiere pellets (my TalonP has an 18.5″ custom fitted 22 cal. FX barrel now). I got thirty-one 35.7 ft*lb shots (1060.6 fps) before velocity started to drop.
However, at the same power wheel preload setting that I used for tuning the Premiers (6+3 on the Power Wheel), I get 1046 fps and 38.6 ft*lb from JSB Exact Jumbos and far better velocity consistency and accuracy than with the Premiers, so I’ll have to do more tuning testing with the Jumbos. Hades pellets were not as good and I shot about the same result as I shot with the Hades using Jumbo Heavies. JSB Express and Express RS were worse than the heavier JSBs, but still not quite as bad as the boxed Premiers, or worse, tins of Wally World CPHPs or Piranhas. I have at least a dozen more pellets to try, but 0.69″ ctc from the Exact Jumbos is decent for 10 shots at 30 yards–far better than I could ever get from the OEM 25 cal Walther barrel, despite thousands of pellets in testing and, in desperation, even cutting off the barrel’s choke and re-crowing it! Hopefully there will be more improvement to be found from my custom barrel installation.
I improved the cheek weld position of my 3D-printed stock design a little (still using Taulman 618 nylon for it) and now it’s perfect for me in all shooting positions (I shoot with a sling in all positions.) The scope height is slightly lower than an AR-15 and, for close-in and high angle shots on tree rats, lower is better. The low height is achieved with a very low cheek weld behind the sloping profile up to the tank. It’s the lowest height possible, even on the small AF tank, without a droop fitting. The bubble level helps to mitigate the cant sensitivity that’s also a characteristic of high sight line / scope mounting too. Due to the plumbing, a Spin-Loc tank is required. Both tanks get removed with the stock from the gun as an assembly.
Nice setup. Good thoughting. Looks nice also. I had thought of making a stack of progressively shorter reservoir tubing with the manifold as the butt stock.
I need to get back into my Talon SS again. These AirForce air rifles are so cool.
Nice looking build! Extremely well done!
Wow, that’s some setup! Thanks for the pic.
P.S. Sorry I’ve not posted here in a while but, looking at the above, I realized that you guys already know how I tend to “go big” when I DO post! (I recall B.B. replying “holy guest blog” or something similar to my reply post once in the past! ;))
You haven’t posted for a while have you.
And I like your setup. I tried that with my .25 caliber Condor SS sometime back. I didn’t have your fancy stock though. 🙂
I used a 20 cubic inch bottle tethered to the Foster fitting on the guns bottle. I set my regulator on the tethered bottle at 1900 psi. It made good velocity and still grouped good. But I felt I needed a bigger regulated bottle and something that had a higher max fill pressure rating.
It seemed that the smaller volume regulated bottle feeding the guns bigger bottle to 1900 psi didn’t give the shot count I was after.
I see you only got 31 shots. I got about 38 with the 20 cubic inch bottle. But what is funny Condor SS gets 28 usable shots with just the factory bottle. So that’s why I was saying I thought I should of got alot more full power shots with the tethered regulated bottle.
Oh and just a note. I myself like the regulated bottles over the internal regulators for numerous reasons.
But I will say again I like your stock. 🙂
Given the smaller 213 cc AF bottles, I’m very happy with the increased shot count. I could only get about three optimum accuracy shots on each side of the tuned velocity peak (100 psi on the upper side and 100 psi on the bottom side so only six shots consuming 200 psi of air were optimum shots). Now I get about 21 shots from 3000 to 2300 off the bulk tank and then twice as many shots below the setpoint with both tanks contributing air (another 6) for 27 shots total. In Chrony testing, the CPs actually gave me 31 shots total before the velocity dropped at all but I might be getting slightly less than 30 shots with the somewhat heavier JSB Jumbos (more energy too) but it’s still nearly 30 shots. I have to do more chrony testing of the JSBs. There’s a .21 liter 4500 psi Chinese carbon bottle that’s sold on Ebay, but it has a metric thread (like your larger tank Condor). Regs for metric bottles are nearly only Chinese, AFAIK. Externally, it’s only slightly larger than my 213 cc paintball bottles and I think I could redesign the stock yet again for it, but I only have a Hill Mk4 pump so I’m not sure it’s worth the trouble to got to higher pressures unless I get a compressor. Jefferson State Air Rifles has a 5/8-18UNF thread reg, but it’s externally adjustable and pricey! Due to the plumbing, accommodating a rotating pressure adjusting bonnet is problematic. The hose would need to rotate on a Foster fitting or something like that (while pressurized?).
The Condor bottle is about 30 cu. in.. So you should get only 2/3 the number of shots for any given pressure drop with the 20 cu. in. bottle as you got with the 30 cu. in. Condor tank. Or looking at it in the reciprocal direction, your larger bottle provide 3/2 (1.5) times the shots for any given pressure drop as your smaller bottle.
The problem with the smaller second regulated tank is it limits the “fill pressure” of your larger original bottle to only 1900 psi. and 2/3 * (3000-1900)=733. I don’t know what your single bottle fill pressure was but a single bottle fill pressure of 1900+733=2633 “breaks even” with the regulated contribution of air from the smaller bottle down to the regulated set point of 1900. Below 1900, both bottles contribute air. So yes, I can see how you’d only get 10 more shots (38 vs. 28). You really get hurt by the lower starting pressure on the larger bottle (compared to single bottle operation) and the fact that the smaller bottle contributes only 2/3 the larger bottle below the regulator set point.
Go to the Air Ordinance sight and check out the bigger volume regulated HPA bottle they sale for their full auto SMG pellet gun. It would do the trick but you would have to print up a different stock
Thanks, Gunfun1. As always, you have some great suggestions and ideas! That’s the Ninja 48-3000 tank. Ninja also makes a 45-4500 carbon tank that’s about the same size as that 48, but with a rounded bottom. I talked to Ray at Ninja about the 45 tank (great product support from real shooting sports enthusiasts, BTW) and it’s 1lb 11.4oz and 10.22″ long x 3.57″ diameter. My little 213cc / 13 cu. in. paintball tank (same size as the AF tank) and reg is around 1lb 1 oz including plumbing and 9.75″ long x 2.0″ diameter. The larger tank’s extra diameter is actually more of a problem than the extra length, because the regulator would be offset lower and the hose connection would interfere behind the wrist of one’s hand. The way I could make it fit would be to angle the tank more with the reg pointing more upwards and then turn a custom bonnet on my lathe with a side hose connection to loop the hose out to the side and back into the AF tank NPT hole. Some of the larger tank would kind of nestle-in under the shooter’s arm and it would not contact the shooter shoulder as the “butt weld” contact point at the butt end of the smaller tank.
I actually think my gun with its 18.5″ / 14mm dia. 22 barrel balances better with the extra weight of my setup. (It’s just slightly muzzle heavy at the pistol grip, which is what I like.) Another 10oz would probably be a touch muzzle light, but still okay. Total weight with scope would increase to ~8lbs–about the same as a light springer! 😉
I might spin the stock design again for the larger tank someday! I looked at the JSAR video on their pricey adjustable regulators this AM. It’s hard to tell, but it looks like the pressure adjust collar on the reg does not rotate the ASA connection at the bonnet. A rotation of the bonnet is a deal killer for my hose connection, because pressure adjustments would require full de-gassing and plumbing disassembly and one might as well just re-Belleville shim a non-adjustable reg at that point! So the hot setup for shot count would be the 4500 psi bottle with the JSAR 5/8-18UNF 2000-3000 psi regulator (Oh, and an air compressor to replace my Hill Mk4! too–all $$$!)
BTW, one of the reasons that I’m so happy with the shot count increase is my giddiness is based on operating with no pressure changes outside of normal shot-to-shot pellet variations (which cause accuracy to measurably suffer when shooting off a bench or prone with a sling). That benefit is going from about 6 shots to 30 shots (5x increase in maximally accurate shots)! However, when I shoot off-hand and can’t hold to that accuracy anyway, the extra tank and regulation “only” about doubles my shot count (shots go from about 16-18 shots to a shot count in the mid-thirties with a 35-ish ft*lb energy level tune). This barrel is looking to be reasonably accurate. The more accurate the gun, the more the potential benefit in this mod! Have I mentioned that I already have a 28″ TJ’s 257 barrel just waiting for me to fit and chamber it (for slugs) for this gun? 🙂 It’ll need some air!
Maybe you should try the 18″ barrel. Yours has a 12″ barrel right? Your shot count and velocity might increase with your set up.
And I had one of those full auto Air Ordinance SMG pellet guns. And that’s exactly how I shot it. I would tuck the big bottle under my arm. It actually worked out pretty good.
Tucked under the arms works then. Good to know. It’s always hard to tell about these kinds of ergo question until trying it.
No. I have a 18.5″ FX 22 cal barrel that I installed to replace the original 12″ 25 cal. TalonP LW barrel that, despite extreme patience and radical efforts, I could never get to shoot any pellets or slugs well. My new FX barrel is not a Smooth Bore barrel; it’s conventional rifling. It’s shooting well and I found a few pellets that are right there, accuracy wise, with the JSB Jumbos at 30 yards today: H&N Sniper Magnum, Beeman Destroyer, AA Field Heavy, and maybe even RWS Hobby wadcutters–at least if the constant light to moderate wind would stop blowing the wadcutters sideways. (It does stop around here…in the winter! :() The wadcutters surprised me at 30 yards. 5.53 mm head size Baracuda Match were pretty good too. It’s not my very most accurate air rifle. That would actually still be my .177 LGV springer, which has come very close to shooting Bob Stern’s Air Gun Guild challenge (5 groups of 5 shots on one target all completely covered by a dime at 50 yards) but I think I’ll need windless days and pellet gage sorting and weighing to meet Bob’s challenge with that .177! A custom aligned Hatsan air stripper helped improve accuracy a bit on my LGV and I have one in 22 cal. too but I need to do some machining and I can’t find the necessary lathe gears to make the 22 cal air strippper alignment tool since I moved.
Why did you decide to go with the 18″ FX barrel instead of the 18″ AirForce Lothar Walther barrel?
I got a really good deal on it when the FX factory switched to smooth twist and also got a .177, which I’m undecided about what I’ll do with it. Might put it on my Diana 34, which is a much more difficult machining operation than the AF install machine work. Right now, the Diana 34 sports a full Xisico barrel (and barrel block) in 22, because the original Diana Chinese 12-land .177 barrel was very pellet picky and not very accurate either. They had a quality control problem with them a bit over 10 years ago. Some would shoot. Some did not shoot. I got a lemon but the Xisico barrel shoots okay.
That would probably be a good home for the .177 barrel.
>That would probably be a good home for the .177 barrel.
I think that’s what I’ll do, Gunfun1. My 22 cal. FX barrel is 18.5″ long it’s a good length for PCP. However, my bare .177 FX barrel is only about 12″, as I recall, and I don’t like the extreme velocity hit of short barrels on PCPs (and .177 needs a different AF valve to preclude air dumps too). My Diana 34 came with a muzzle weight so I can use it or some other sort of barrel moderator, “LDC” or extension for a little extra length to reduce cocking effort. 12″ is a perfectly adequate length for good springer performance and I’ve buttoned the 34’s piston and done a trigger job on it so it’s a deserving platform for a nice barrel.
That sounds like a good guest blog.
I would be interested to see what you do to get the barrel ro work on the 34. And of course some velocity and accuracy info.
I bet BB wouldn’t mind.
>That sounds like a good guest blog.
>I would be interested to see what you do to get the barrel ro work on the >34. And of course some velocity and accuracy info.
>I bet BB wouldn’t mind.
I’ve actually already devised a good method and I tested it by installing my TalonP OEM L-W barrel into the Diana’s barrel block as an educational experiment. 25 cal is underpowered in the Diana 34. (It was shooting in the 500+fps range with typical lighter 25 cal pellets.) The barrel’s accuracy was still just so-so at even 25 yards. (50 yards was where I had an ever bigger beef with OEM barrel on my TalonP.) I’ll have to find my notes for how I machined that tricky angled beech (made even trickier, because a 25 cal bore barely fits into a Diana 34 barrel block, given the break action’s pivot location, but my installation method worked great. The key to making the job relatively easy was installing the barrel like a 22LR (or even larger caliber) barrel liner is typically installed with epoxy. I machined the three pieces separately: the barrel block, a spacer sleeve (machined at an angle to match the barrel block face for the o-ring groove), and the barrel. Then I bonded the spacer sleeve into the barrel block, followed by the barrel after the spacer epoxy set. I did use both my hobby lathe and mill (the mill to machine the desired angles on the ends of the barrel and spacer. It’s a bit technical for this venue but, due to the machine tools required for the job, at least B.B. would not have to worry about the average air-gunner attempting to do it and “bricking” their gun. But yeah, when I find the time to do it, I’ll take enough photos for a guest blog. I’m pretty sure I can bore out the L-W barrel and re-use the barrel block with a new spacer.
That will work. I’m sure people would be interested.
Just keep right on doing that! 🙂
You bet, B.B.! I might have to write a real guest blog on eyeglass prescriptions for shooting someday. (I could never find that Shotgun News article by a shooting-savvy optometrist that’s undoubtedly in one of my old magazine piles that I promised to provide here on your blog.) I’ve spent quite a few hours watching optician training videos on YouTube and I’m “hacking” my prescription and ordering glasses online with good results (My eyes are nearly 62 years old now.) But I’m not a licensed optometrist or optician so I’d have to speak in terms of what “works for me” (not necessarily others ;)). This is a great YouTube channel and great instructor/presenter:
Start here, if you’re interested. (Most optometrists won’t even bother with this stuff for shooters and don’t understand what we need!):
Fred formerly of the DPRoNJ now Happily in GA,
I would have “talked” more last night, but I was typing with my thumbs.
As for the Morini and the Steyr. If you want one of the top of the liners, go for it. I might take the Steyr over the Morini simply because the name sounds better. At that level, there probably really is not difference in quality. One may rest in your hand better, which will require you to try them out. Ahh. Shucks.
The reason I was pushing the Izzy is as you have learned, you have to take a serious jump up to better it. I also have no problem with the absolutely awesome mechanical trigger. Since I do not compete, I have my trigger set at “think”. I take position, start aiming, very carefully feel the trigger and when I “think” it goes off. There is also zero over travel.
My Izzy was my third airgun following my Gamo CFX and a Crosman CO2 pistol. The Crosman very quickly went away. The CFX is gone now also. It was many years before another air pistol took up permanent residence at RRHFWA. I finally allowed a Webley Senior and a Predom to move in.
If I was to have to get rid of my entire “collection”, my Izzy would be the next to last one to go. The last to go would be my 1906 BSA. 😉
RidgeRunner of the DPRoVA
I would go for the Morini I think it sounds better. It’s a Italian. 😉
OH NO! We are about to break loose with German and Italian ethnic jokes! Everybody run!
There is a shooter at my range who brought a Brocock Bull Pup to the range. He had the bolt/lever on the left side.
When he shot at the 100 yard bell it was, “ding,ding,ding,ding,ding,ding,ding”. The whole magazine in less than 10 seconds. Had the lever been on the right side that right handed shooter would not have been able to do that.
Why is it that the lever is on the right side for right handed shooters? That is wrong! He could pull, shoot, pull shoot, without removing his trigger finger from the trigger or loosing his sight picture. If the lever had been on the otherside he could not had done this.
I believe that a gun for a right handed shooter, approximately 80% of the population, the cocking lever should always be on the left side. Otherwise it is ergonomically wrong….
So PCP’s need a shoot counter, PLUS a little bell that tells you when the regulator has had enough time to “fill-up”. The darkside is getting darker all the time…
Hi, I’m Yogi. I’m a springer dude.
I shoot left and have the lever on the left side on the Red Wolf. I cock the rifle with the trigger hand (when bench rested). If the rifle was rested well (and) the off hand was under the butt end/grip,… then yes,… you could leave your trigger hand in place and cock with the other hand (that would otherwise be holding the front or be near the front). Plus, the Bull Pup may be different given the short design and where the lever is positioned along the stock. So, while it may have worked for him, that is not the normal. Also,.. could?? the lever have been swapped to the other side anyways?
Mechanical things are typically designed to be manipulated by the dominant hand as many people are more comfortable with that. To see what I mean, for fun, ask people to eat their soup holding their spoon in the “wrong” hand.
Agreed, from an efficiency perspective, right-handed guns should have the bolt/lever on the left but most people would find that awkward; would be nice if they were all designed to be ambidextrous so we had a choice.
Myself, I am right-eye dominant and right-handed but can also work with many tools (hammer, saw, screwdrivers etc) equally well with my left hand. All of my bait-casting (fishing) reels are left-handed for that reason – it is more efficient to reel with the left hand.
I agree if it were a stiff bolt, “bolt action”. A good lever should be as smooth as butter…….
FWIW-I’m right handed, right eye dominant and I cock by springers with my left hand. Now don’t get me started on side cocking spring guns, lol.
PS I have never understood why in the UK they move the steering wheel to the other side, but the clutch, brake, and accelerator all stay in the same position relative to each other?
And they tend to keep the shifter in the center of the car. So that means you need to shift a stick shift manual trans with your left hand instead of your right.
Correct, unless it is a race car. Then the driver and the shifter are on the right.
This is because most race tracks(except NASCAR which is turn left) have more right handed turns than left handed turns.
All I know is I would rather slam 3rd gear in a 4 speed car shifting up and away from me with my right hand than pulling and shifting up in 3rd gear with my left hand.
And don’t tell me they changed the shift pattern in the European 4 speed cars where first gear is still closest to your left hand. I could do it but I still got the normal right hand H pattern embedded in my brain. I drove some Porches and rode in my buddies Ferrari 308 GTI. Back in the late 80’s if I remember right. Both of those cars were left hand drive cars with the normal right hand shift H pattern.
I guess when it’s all said and done be it cars or guns. I could get use to either if I had to. Left or right handed.
I could NEVER get used to a left cold water tap. NEVER.
🙂 right again.
I’m right eye dominant and shoot right handed. But I am left handed. And I can work with either hand.
About the only thing I do left handed is write or draw. And referring to draw. I can use either hand shooting a pistol but not a rifle. 😉
And speaking of shooting long distance and drawing. I watched Quigley down under with Tom Selleck. Haven’t seen that movie quite some time. Was very good to see again.
Love it towards the end with his pistol confrontation. They put a pistol in his belt and 4 of them are standing with pistols aiming at him. He pulls the pistol and they are down before one even sets off a shot. Then he says “I never said I didn’t know how to use one. I just never had no use for one.” Referring to the pistol as the old Aborigines hands him his rifle.
Give this a try.
Take a bolt action rifle in the 9-10 pound range. While standing and sighting, take your left hand off of the forestock and bring it back to the action, only holding the rifle up and to your shoulder with your right hand clasping the grip.
Now, while standing and sighting, maintain your grip on the forestock and let go of the grip with your right hand and bring it up to operate the bolt.
Yeah, the leverage would really work against you with a bolt action rifle in the 9-10 pound range but not so much with a short bullpup like a Lelya.
Still, if you were target shooting a benched rifle it would be nice to be able to work the lever with the off-hand and not have to disturb the the trigger hand.
Think that a lot of designs could be made ambidextrous with a bit of design effort. Know that there are left-handed aftermarket lever kits for the Impact.
I definitely agree with what you said.
For a right (eye) shooter let the gun rest on a bag or a bipod. Right hand on the trigger. Slap that bolt with the left hand. That makes for very fast shooting.
I had one of my first .25 caliber Marauder rifles set up that way. I’ll have to see if I can look up a picture and post it. But I think that was on a old phone from about 6 or more years ago. So probably can’t get the picture anymore.
and that is they way it ought to be.
Nothing is more Fubar’d that having the cold water from the left side tap!
Except maybe cocking PCP’s with the wrong hand…
I think right hand firearms are designed so the empty case ejects on the opposite side as the shooter. The habit just carries over into air guns.
Good point. Couldn’t they have a left handed bolt and a right side ejection?
I believe they could.
Man I could shoot my bolt action rimfires pretty fast if that was the case. Bench resting of course. Would be tough to do standing unsupported though.
And thinking more. Semi auto firearms are pretty popular now days. Bench resting and standing unsupported. A semi auto can shoot good groups too ya know. You just got to slow down to get something accomplished.
So in that case of a semi auto what side the bolts on doesn’t really matter. But ejection does. But you could always put a catch bag for the cases on the gun. Then ejection side doesn’t matter any more.
Maybe that’s why among other reasons I’m not thinking of. And for another thing that’s just how they make firearms. Why would anyone shoot left handed anyway. 😉
A couple of thoughts on adjusting the hammer spring tension…
– When making adjustments, I fire a couple of shots to settle the hammer spring in place (it is under compression and then likely twisted when the screw is turned) before checking the velocity. When tuning, I find that the rifle settles (spring and plenum pressures) more quickly when I am increasing velocity rather than decreasing it.
– Pellets are a variable that can be easily minimized, so I always use sorted pellets when doing serious testing.
Ideally, the rifle is broken in before any serious tuning/evaluation can be done – know that you don’t have time for this. I have 6 PCPs and none of them need a dwell time for the regulator to stabilize between shots. Two of the rifles have reg pressure gauges that show a “flick” of the needle when shot and are back to full pressure in a fraction of a second.
You might want to inspect the magazine (the chassis and the carrier) for burrs and alignment.
Thanks. I will.
I agree on the ergonomics , think of an AR-15. It is perfect because the shooting hand never leaves the gun and the bolt closing and charging handle are run with your off hand . I think that most PCPs should put the cocking handle on the left side anyways . Most Bull Pups on the market are built down to a price with terrible trigger linkages and crappy stocks ( no design input ) . In my opinion the only Bull Pup rifles that are set up right are the Air Arms Galahad and the Benjamin Bulldog due to ambidextrous controls. I am sure there are some others like Daystate and FX but I have no experience with them . I was really excited to see the Galahad due to the ergonomics. My 2 cents for today .
I agree too.
What would be nice is if the manufacturers would recognize the need for a bolt that can be set as a left or right.
That’s what is nice about most of the Benjamin and Crosman guns with the type of breech the Marauder rifle has and rear pull bolt. They can be switched from one side or the other.
Very smart thinking if you ask me.
The Bulldog?! As I recall when I shot one you had to be a contortionist to operate it. Did they change the design?
Is the only difference between the Maximus and the Euro Maximus the hammer spring tension? If so, is there some way to get into the Euro Maximus to increase the hammer spring tension?My Euro Maximus is not that hard to cockroach that’s why I’m wondering.
No, I’m not doing the things you might think I am
Stock my .22 was shooting around 650 FPS. Supposed to be “up to 750.”
Maximum I’ve been able to get is 712; supposed to be “up to 800.”
Minimum I’ve been able to get is 350; supposed to be “up to 600.”
I’m currently set at 650 fps and I can easily get at least 100 shots on a fill 🙂
I got a bunch of Gauntlet magazines so I don’t have to load pellets until I’m almost out of air and I am ***really*** enjoying shooting this rifle.
To update my previous comments from a few weeks back:
After around 650 shots, my 2nd Swarm Fusion Gen2 rifle also started to have misloads/misfeeds just like the 1st one. I was also never able to get good groups with it (JSB, CPHP, CPDUM, H&N FTT, Daisy HP). Happily, I’ve been able to return it.
Looks like the Fortitude is the rifle for me!
If it helps anyone else, these are the reasons I went with the Fortitude:
3. Cost of magazines (Gauntlet mags work great!)
4. Cost of rifle
5. Potential for easier/simpler modifications (not really planning on any though although if I can easily lighten the trigger a little bit . . .)
In hindsight, I’d also add ease of repair and support.
Did I mention I’m really enjoying shooting the rifle? 😀
What pellet you shooting in your Fortitude and what grain?
The Gauntlet single shot trays work as well in the Fortitude.
At 36 yards, CPHP and Daisy HP work great.
I also have three others (attached picture) I’m going to try, but those two work well and are quite inexpensive—a winning combination for me, since I’m going through a tin a week 🙂
Let us know how your other pellets do.
And that’s how to do it. Shoot alot. It does make a difference.
I only buy gauntlet single shot trays for any gun they fit, they are just better.
Same here on the single shot trays.
No the design is the same they are convertible to a left hand bolt . Not as ergonomic as the Galahad but a pretty good rifle that shoots well . The beauty of the Galahad is the forward mounted and reversible cocking lever. But then the Galahad comes at a Jaguar price point versus the Bulldogs Chevy price !!
I’ll wait on the Walther. It comes at a VW Bug price (although that is pretty high nowadays) and you do not have to be a contortionist to shoot it.
Space X launch today (2 people in space for first time in decades from US soil) at 4:33 PM if all goes well (weather, other) for anyone not aware and may want to watch on TV. I have Direct TV which the Discovery Channel has “exclusive”? access to everything. I would guess???? that they would broadcast it on regular antenna TV,.. maybe? If not, maybe the internet. If all else fails,… catch it on the evening news.
At any rate,.. just some FYI
It’s about time! The shuttle was a perfect example of using existing technology and parts combined with saving money and too much compromise. Space ships and Nuclear plants need the best designs and quality control. Usually that is less expensive in the long run if failure is catastrophic, especially when form follows function.
It will be interesting to see how the privatization of space ships changes the space race.
I am unsure has to how the power limit is obtained . I highly doubt it would be that easy . It is most likely a different valve body . In order for a gun to be accepted in the UK market they can not be easily converted . I have never seen a Euro version . Unable to give specifics
Well got a pretty significant discovery I made today with my Forttude. As it goes ole Gunfun1 is always after more accuracy.
When I first got the gun I was fighting accuracy because of the regulator breaking in and also found the shroud contacting the air tube. In the process of finding those things out the gun got real accurate when I removed the shroud. But the gun was loud. And that I don’t like. The shroud is one reason I got the Fortitude. I already have a very accurate .22 Maximus. So I want quiet and accuracy out of the Fortitude.
But anyway the the above got straightened out and the regulator got broke in. It’s been shooting pretty good. But I decided to unscrew the muzzle end cap and take out the 3 baffles and the coil spring. (And to note the hole through the center of the baffles are twice as big as a .177 caliber pellet approximately. So no don’t think that the pellets were clipping the baffles making accuracy issues. And I see no clipping on the baffles or muzzle end cap anyway).
I screwed the muzzle end cap back onto the shroud with no baffle or spring this time and shot. Now I get like 6 pellets touching at a bit under a half inch” group and the other 4 pellets make the group about .700″. So I’m thinking that I might have something to do with those 4 pellets that make the group grow. Oh and all my testing with the Fortitude has been at 50 yards.
And here is another thing that I never would of believed until I shot. My Fortitude is still super quiet without the baffles and spring. And to note I have my striker spring set at the factory 4 turns.
If somebody try’s this with their Fortitude let me know how their accuracy is and how the sound level is.
Oh and I think the baffles are causing a pressure issue with the accuracy part.
Glad the baffles out worked for better accuracy. The theory (pressure issue) sounds plausible.
What I’m surprised about is how quiet still. I guess there is enough volume in the shroud to (absorb) the sound.
Something I remember in my younger days there was experiments happening with sound canceling mufflers. Some kind of speaker played sound waves or something that canceled the sound that came out of the muffler. Not joking it was seriously happening. But maybe it happened at the wrong time and died. Back then everybody wanted to hear their muscle cars not make them quiet.
That is interesting, have you tried the Marauder with the baffles removed to see how that changes accuracy or sound level?
I think the Marauder has 5 baffles, your gen 2 Fortitude 3 baffles and my gen 1 Fortitude has one.
I have been too busy lately and have not been shooting in a while, if I can find the time and I hope soon, I will try removing the baffle and see about accuracy and sound levels.
I did try with the Marauders I had. Removing the baffles didn’t change anything accuracy wise on them for some reason. But they did get louder. So not sure what is going on with the Fortitude. Both guns use the same baffle and spring and shroud setup.
And really the gen1 Fortitude only has one baffle.
And ok if you do try removing the baffle let me know what happens.
Will let you know.
The three baffles don’t seem to have much effect on sound levels from my minimal experimentation. I didn’t check accuracy.
However, I seem to have affected the barrel because my shroud is now touching the air tube and POI has moved. I was able to remove the shroud and push the barrel back upward a bit. Will test POI later today.
I think this may have something to do with your shroud touching now.
I have found on some of the Benjamin and Crosman guns with these types of shrouds that they are not tightened all the way. Then when I tighten them so they are secure it pulls the shroud a certain way.
And yep that’s what I have done is unthreaded the shroud off the barrel and bent it then tried the shroud secured on the barrel again.
After doing that the gun seems to get more consistent and better groups if the shroud and barrel is centered better. I usually even take the barrel band off too. I just don’t like when the shroud contacts the band.
Let me know how it turns out when you get a chance to shoot yours again.
It needed more bending but I got it doing pretty good. Not entirely satisfied because now the shroud is touching the top of the barrel band. There is a very narrow margin where it is nicely centered and doesn’t touch, and I want/need to get it back there. Taking a break before trying again.
If you have it set like that give it a try with the barrel band off.
That is a good way that you have it now. Zero the scope that way and give it a try. I have a feeling you will like the groups you see.
You can always at sometime try to bend the barrel again and put the barrel band back on you know.
Great discovery. I wonder if the accuracy obtained without the baffles and spring will be preserved when the barrel band is re-installed. – Don
I’m going to say the accuracy will suffer again with the barrel band back on. My barrel band contacts the barrel and I don’t care for that. If the band was a nice fit to the barrel and air tube then I would try it again.
And another thing my Fortitude is shooting really good. It’s right there with my FWB 300 and my .22 Maximus. So I don’t want to take a chance and messing that up now that its shooting how I want. Plus I like a free floating barrel. Shrouded or unshrouded barrels. I have seen to much accuracy change with barrel bands. Sometimes for the good sometimes for the bad.
And I guess I should say something about my Maximus before somebody goes “But what about your Maximus. You have a barrel band on it”.
On that gun and some other Crosman and Benjamin guns the barrel band fits the barrel pretty good and they use a set screw to secure the barrel to the band and another set screw to secure the barrel band to the air tube. So on those guns the barrel band locks everything in. And I have moved those type of barrel bands in different location on the barrel and improved accuracy.
So probably the best thing for me to say is if a person has a suspicion about accuracy. Try some of the things just mentioned and see what happens. And take notes so you can put it back to what way you like. That’s all I can say.
Those are useful comments about barrel band fit, location and your preference for a floating barrel. Shroud, barrel band and baffle springs could influence barrel vibrations.
Is your barrel in contact with the shroud via o-rings or is it free floating within the shroud? – Don
The barrel inside the shroud has a piece on the muzzle with holes drilled around it to allow the air pressure to vent back to the shroud when the pellet leaves the barrel. That piece has a o-ring around it also that keeps the barrel centered to the shroud. If that o-ring wasn’t there I bet there would be accuracy problems.
In the Marauder EVPL it looks like that piece is held in place by the baffle spring and baffles. If the Fortitude is similar, how does it stay in place without the baffle parts? – Don
GF1 may chime in soon but on my gen 1 Fortitude it seems to be glued on or perhaps just a friction fit, but it is well stuck onto the end of the barrel.
I haven’t took that end piece off the barrel on my Fortitude. But I have on my Marauder rifles I had. They may have been glued. But I know I took at least one off with a pair of pliers. I don’t remember what it looked like inside.
But anyway I think Don was thinking that piece would come off without the baffles and spring. Nope its staying on the best I can tell.
Yes indeed they are stuck to stay.
Yep they are.
From what I have seen it’s a pressed fit.
It’s not coming off easily.
Read my reply to Mike.
Glad to know nothing special needs to be done to keep it in place. Thanks. – Don
There was, perhaps is an issue with the stripper in the Gauntlet and here is a video on it, I think I have it set to the correct point it is a long video but the stripper issue is what is key, you are talking about the Fortitude stripper which I think does not have this problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DTZxZBFpdU?t=613
Thanks for the video link. Very interesting. BTW the internal air stripper on the marauder pistol has a different hole pattern but is for a shroud smaller than that on the marauder rifle. – Don
Yes Mr. Hajimoto has a lot of videos of interest he seems to be a smart guy about things airgun related. Also, the hole pattern will differ with different manufacturers, I liked the way he explained his design. I guess he prints it on a 3D printer.
Like you said with the spring and baffle in place the crack he noted might not be a problem as the stripper would be held in place by that hardware. On the other hand it could cause the stripper to bounce against the spring creating a barrel vibration and loss of accuracy.
Always a lot to think about when moving/changing parts.
Yep no problem.