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Education / Training Tell BB gun: Part 4

Tell BB gun: Part 4

by Tom GaylordZ
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

BB gun
This military-looking BB gun is large and good-looking!

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

History of airguns

This report covers:

  • One more time
  • Comment 1 — clean the barrel
  • Comment 2 — try Marksman oversized BBs
  • Comment 3 — turn the shot tube to change where the balls impact
  • The test
  • Marksman BBs
  • 4.55 lead balls
  • Discussion/summary

One more time

I hadn’t planned to do a fourth report on the Tell BB gun, but several readers’ comments and questions changed my mind. This will be a short report.

Comment 1 — clean the barrel

Reader Feinwerk said this: “It sounds and looks to me like the barrel may be fouled. Look at the nasty dark rings around the target holes. And when you described having to ram 5 of the larger sized lead balls down, after which others rolled freely, it strongly suggested to me that you cleared some debris from the bore. Any way to pull some patches through this barrel?”

I told him I would and that was the first thing I did. The tight spot I mentioned was about 1.5 inches down from the muzzle. And it was dirty. I felt the tight/dirty spot when I pushed a wire brush through the bore. But it only took a couple brush strokes before it was gone. 

After running the brush through the bore several times I pushed a couple clean patches through. The first came out very dirty and the second was almost clean. Then I dropped a Marksman oversized BB through the shot tube and it took about two seconds to roll all the way through. The bore was now clean.

Comment 2 — try Marksman oversized BBs

Reader Michael said this: “Obviously I’ll never again suggest the abnormally large variant of Marksman BBs because of what they did to your Pioneer BB76 gun, but what about Daisy Match Grade Avanti Precision Ground Shot?  They are bigger than the Daisy Premium Grade BBs and are more uniform as well.”

I paused on this one because I still haven’t removed that oversized BB from the Pioneer shot tube yet. I knew the Daisy Match Grade shot were too small from the tests I did in Part 3 with larger balls, but the Marksman BBs measure 0.176-inches and should fit fine. I dropped one into the Tell shot tube and it went to the bottom in a couple seconds. That made me include them in today’s test.

Comment 3 — turn (rotate) the shot tube to change where the balls impact

Reader RidgeRunner suggested that I rotate the shot tube in the gun to change the point of impact. I was surprised I hadn’t thought to do that before. That, I had to try. I rotated the shot tube through several positions before finding what I would call the best one. This I did with the 4.55mm lead balls that I knew were accurate in this gun.

Stock up on Air Gun Ammo

The test

This won’t be a biggie. I already know that the Tell isn’t a tackdriver. What I’m interested in finding out is what these changes do to that, if anything.

I shot from 5 meters, as before. The gun was rested on the UTG monopod and I was seated. I took a 6 o’clock hold on the bullseye.

Marksman BBs

Marksman BBs rolled all the way down the shot tube, so there was no need to push them in with a cleaning rod. But they went all over the place. Ten BBs landed in a “group” that measures 5.324-inches between centers. It’s pretty bad!

The Tell gun threw 10 Marksman BBs into this 5.324-inch group at 5 meters. I’m not using the dime today, because these groups are too big. Notice the one BB that nicked the edge of the target paper on the lower right side.

4.55 lead balls

Hopefully the 4.55mm lead balls will do better. The first shot had to be pushed down the shot tube, so the size of this ball is ideal. The first shot hit the target above and slightly to the right of center. The shots that followed were all pushed home until number 7. That one rolled all the way down the shot tube and so did all remaining balls.

For 9 shots I thought adjusting the shot tube had worked, but shot ten was different. I heard and felt the gun fire and then I heard the BB hit the target. It was a “bang — pop”, with a noticeable lag between firing and the ball hitting the target. Since the target was only 16 feet away, that means the ball was going quite slow. It did hit the paper in perfect alignment, left and right, but it landed almost three inches below the center of the 9-shot main group.

4.55mm group
The 4.55mm lead ball did drop down and move left after I rotated the shot tube. Nine of the balls are in 2.13-inches at 5 meters, but the weak last shot opens the group to 4.523-inches between centers.


Well, the shot tube did need to be cleaned. So that was good. Marksman BBs don’t work, despite their size. And turning the shot tube to move the group also works very well.

But the Tell BB gun is still not an accurate airgun. So I’m forced to restate my opinion from Part 3. This test has taught us that this gun likes larger round balls, but very little else. It’s still hard to cock and not that fun to shoot because of the lack of accuracy.

But at least I did what you readers wanted me to and you got to see the results. I guess this BB gun is more of a collectible than a shooter.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

232 thoughts on “Tell BB gun: Part 4”

    • I agree completely – looks interesting, but certainly not a shooter. Add in the 60 pounds of force to cock it, and one wonders if it was just a mistake on the path to something else.

      It would look good on a wall, but that is about it . . .


  1. Whenever a full size “BB” gun comes up here it always reminds me just how much I would like to have something with 499 accuracy along with nice high quality machined metal parts, nice wood furniture and decent target sights – and designed for steel BB’s because I like to avoid lead when shooting inside my house in the areas where pets and children roam. I’m also reminded about the Diana Oktoberfestgewher. The Canadian Diana distributor doesn’t seem to carry it but if that one was designed for steel BB’s instead of the 4.4 lead balls I would probably already have been pestering them to see if they could bring one in for me as a special order.

    The 499 is great but I feel like a giant when I’m shooting it! Even though it isn’t exactly what I want (being CO2 powered and not target style) I think I’m going to go ahead and get the M1 carbine replica.

  2. BB,

    Well, at least you gave her a chance. It is a real shame, most especially the way she is put together. There are some issues with this old gal that really deserve a look see inside, such as the hard cocking, the non functioning gravity feed, etcetera, but it is certainly understandable that you would be reluctant to do such. You just do not have the time to give to that. There are way too many other airguns for you to shoot for us that will be much more “interesting”.

    I am glad the idea of rotating the barrel helped to improve the POI some. Others who have rotating barrels on their bb guns should remember that little trick, most especially when so many bb guns have mostly fixed sights.

    Should a company build a high quality, adult size bb gun similar to this? That is not likely going to happen, no matter how much some of us, including myself, want them to. The market is not there. Think about it. This thing is full of real steel, not stamp metal. There is a lot of wood there, not a slightly shaped piece of board. Yes, you could go to a synthetic stock, but we would want a decent, solid feeling one. It would have to be able to shoot with a 499 and give it a run for its money.

    Something like this would have a price tag. How many adults are going to buy it? A few. Not tens or hundreds of thousands. The financial return is just not there.

  3. BB,

    Here is a thought for the bb shooters and even your little contest. I do not know the outer diameter of a 499 barrel, but if it would slide almost snugly into either a .22 or .25 barrel, you could convert a cheap break barrel into a very powerful adult size bb gun.

    Drill a small hole at the breech end of the 499 barrel for a small magnet to hold the bb in place. Coat the barrel with epoxy to hold it in place and seal the rifling in the break barrel. Slide the 499 barrel into the breech, making sure the end of the barrel is at least flush with the end of the other barrel. Let set overnight.

    I do not know how well this will work or how hard it is to get a 499 barrel or if it will even fit anything, but it sure would be fun.

    • RR,

      I like it. I would go the McMaster Carr route unless you can pick up some tubing from the local hardware store. They do carry some. Yes,… cheap break barrel with focus on “cheap”. Epoxy would allow for a pretty sloppy fit and still turn out just fine. The 499 barrel would be too short for most break barrels (with out pulling mine to measure) I think. It would be a mean bb shooter for sure.


      • Chris,

        I am not sure it would be too short. That would depend on how straight the bb flies out of the 499 barrel and the caliber of the break barrel. How much “room” does the bb have down the bore? How steady is the shooter with follow through?

        It could make for an interesting winter workshop experiment, assuming Daisy will even sell a 499 barrel. Now, if you could find the right I.D. tubing with excellent tolerances, that may be a better way to go. Also, reducing the spring power a bit may be warranted. This will likely be a .25 air rifle. That little bb is not going to offer much back pressure, even with the reduced bore size.

        • Daisy sells parts for current model guns. Quite reasonable prices, too. Of course, just buying a Daisy 499B versus trying to kludge up a sproinger to try to duplicate the accuracy of aforesaid Daisy?

          • Paco,

            I have a ’59 Model 99. I really have no desire to own a 499. Now I really would like to have a good quality, adult size bb gun. This Tell with some work might be ideal. A tuned down break barrel with a 99 barrel inserted in the bore would be pretty cool, very rugged and possibly very accurate.

        • RidgeRunner,

          No reason you couldn’t cut the outer barrel down a bit. Most target air rifles have a sleeve that extends a few inches (as does the TX200), so, say two inches of sleeve past the muzzle for your custom BB gun should be fine. Obviously, it would also protect the actual 499 muzzle.

          Regarding a BB-retaining method, as long as the neodymium magnet is not too big/powerful, it should be fine, but I have worked with them a little with loudspeaker and guitar pickup experiments, and I have suffered more blood blisters than I care to admit. A less-powerful ceramic magnet might be easier to work with while also not reducing velocity, which a powerful neodymium certainly could do if it were too strong.

          Or, you might instead install an o-ring behind the 499 barrel that is just slightly too narrow in the center.


          • Michael,

            You may be on to something with the O-ring idea. Insert the barrel far enough in the breech to allow two O-rings as you describe and they would hold the bb centered in the breech until fired.

    • Interesting thoughts RR.

      Mostly from a technical perspective though. Don’t think that it would be difficult to bore out a barrel to accept an 499 tube and sweat-solder or epoxy it in place. Seen rare earth magnets that have a screw-hole for mounting them so one of those might serve as a “breech”.

      Don’t think that the exercise would be worth the effort as the platform is not very accurate beyond 15 feet. BBs, sheet metal, plastic and low power seem to be where that technology is – IMHO, machined steel parts are not going to improve the accuracy or the effective range.

      Still, it might be fun to do …just “because” eh!


      • Hank,

        The magnet with the hole sounds like a possibility. This platform would be far more rugged and likely more powerful. As far as accuracy, well we are talking smooth bore. If I could repeatedly rip a feral soda can apart at 25+ yards, I would be tickled.

        • RR,

          Yeah, minute-of-a-soda-can accuracy at 25 yards with a BB would be something to get excited about.

          I had a Model 25 for a short while. Liked that it was a pump-action repeater …that is about all I liked about it. Was OK for indoor plinking at very close range but much beyond 25 feet you could see the BBs arcing way off of the direction of aim. With that gun, a garbage pail at 25 yards would be a challenge.

          GF1 has an idea – use a PCP as the chassis. You should be able to find a Maximus or something like that (second-hand) for a reasonable price and it would be easy enough to swap barrels back and forth.


          • My old 25 (1950s) still shoots as new. A little oil once and a while is the only maintenance. I got rid of the original shoulder stock and fitted the back end of a shot out 1898 Winchester/Remington?. It is not much longer, butI like the looks. The old rifle was three generations old and the rifling was gone.

            • Bob,

              That is the one I had (in the mid 60s) but it was a smooth bore.

              We grew up shooting pellet guns. BB guns didn’t have the range, accuracy or power to compare to the pellet guns so they were not favored.

              I bought my 25 second hand, put a couple of hundred BBs through it and sold it. I liked that it was a fast shooting repeater and it was fun to shoot but found it to be to limited.

              I look at the Model 25 every now and then. If I get a BB gun it might be a 25 or more likely a 499.


          • Hank,

            That is why I will never get rid of my Model 99. It will time after time hit those feral soda cans at 25 yards. True, I do have to give it a little elevation at that range and it rarely penetrates, but it will knock them around and dent them. I was pretty good at hitting carpenter bees with it out to about 10 yards.

      • GF1,

        Yeah, that would be nice but very expensive unless you could easily change the barrel out for regular pellets.

        I can get a sproinger for next to nothing. Plus the break barrel makes for easy loading.

      • GF1,

        The 499 barrel is more pipe like as opposed to thin tubing.

        ((I just pulled mine)). Overall 12″, the barrel is 8″ and the funnel/guide at the front is 4″. I remembered it being longer,.. but that is what it is. Barrel OD is .299″. It all comes out as one assembly and just unscrews from the front.


  4. Ridgerunner ,

    Very similar to relining a firearm barrel . I would use Acraglas from Brownells . This would be better on a low powered springer . Some of the magnum springers would blow /burn the piston seal without the resistance of the pellet. Probably drastically shorten the life of the mainspring also due to the violent bounce back . Try to find a Stoeger X5 or a Air Venturi Bronco would be a good route to go . My 2 cents for today !

    Gene Salvino

    • Gene,

      As I was thinking and just commenting to Chris up a couple of frames. Not knowing the O.D. of the 499 barrel or tubing, my assumption was for a .25 air rifle. Finding one of those with low power is pretty much zip. The spring would likely have to be shortened or replaced with a lower powered one. I would still want that bb to zip, but I would not want it to beat itself to death in the process.

  5. BB ,

    That’s a shame how it shoots . Sounds like it needs a complete teardown and all the hardened lube and rust scrubbed out . Take the action out of the stock and soak it in some mineral spirits or diesel fuel overnight , just might get it going without the possibility of damaging the gun . I have a 6″ piece of PVC pipe with a cap on one end that I use to soak old nasty actions in mineral spirits . I think it is 36″ long . Works good on those cheap old guns that no one wants to pay to tear down like single barrels and beat up 22 rifles. It has freed up many glued together guns !! After I blow the guns dry I just spray with some Ballistol or Deep Creep . Another option is to spray the action with Sea Foam Deep Creep, it is a amazing penetrant that works like a light oil and will protect the gun well . It is one of the few things I use besides Ballistol or Grease .

    Gene Salvino

  6. Ridgerunner ,

    You are right , a 177 gun would have to be bored out . That ruins the cost factor for sure ! Maybe a Hatsan 95 in 25 would be the only reasonably powered 25 . I believe they shoot about 625 with 20 grains when new . Food for thought . Weihrauch HW80 and R1 Beemans came in 25 also , they only shoot about 650 to 700 with 20 grains also . Maybe find a 25 cal . R1 barrel used ?

    Gene Salvino

  7. BB

    Does it seem odd that the debris inside the barrel was all in one place? When I was a kid I would drop firecrackers inside a steel pipe and enjoy the mighty blast at incoming tanks. Reckon someone dropped some of those tiny Chinese New Year firecrackers in the Tell?


  8. BB,
    As nice as it is, I think here’s a case where the good looking M1 carbine is the solution,
    but it would be hard to decide real wood or faux. As a manufacturing accomplishment,
    I think the faux is notable.
    I wish my P1 came in .25 cal..

  9. I brought this up in a round about way on another part of the report on this gun.

    I wonder if this gun had a linkage setup like a break barrel or under lever spring gun if the force to cock it maybe reduced to say 30 pounds of cocking effort.

    Makes me wonder if people realize the cocking systems on springers reduce cocking effort.

    Maybe not half the effort. But definitely makes the cocking easier by some amount.

    You know like how we all hoped for the butterfly hand pump to reduce pumping effort.

    With the gun BB is testing its all spring pressure you feel when you cock it.

    It makes me think there is significant recoiling someway when the gun fires also.

    I’m thinking there is several things adding up to give this particular gun bad accuracy. Even the tube that was made.

    Wonder if anyone else out there has had one and what results they got.

  10. I think today’s comments could be added to BB’s “what do you want” report; I guess we all want a 499 that looks like Tell.
    Also Crosman can make her 2260 / 1077 CO2s look like Tell or M1903.

  11. BB
    I’m sure you thought of it on your own,, but what do you suppose caused that last shot to be so weak? And as a second question,, brought up by GF!,, did you notice much recoil in the firing cycle?
    The previous owner installed the homemade barrel well enough to get it to shoot,, but there are certainly unsolved mysteries inside that aren’t likely to be uncovered given the time and effort necessary.
    I really enjoy these “this old gun” stories.

  12. B.B.,

    In your byline:

    “by Tom GaylordZ
    Writing as B.B. Pelletier”

    Who is this guy?!!!

    Sad that all the suggestions didn’t make the Tell a shooter!


    • You know what is sad, is you ripping on the Kennedy’s driving and flying skills, but it was a Kennedy that told the truth to the American people they may in fact fry in very short order. He didn’t try to spare our feelings about the true level of threat we faced. And another thing, do you want to rip on the shuttle pilots flying skills, or how the ones who blew up in a rocket, so some corrupt politician who doesn’t pay taxes, can ride around in a armoured limo, and watch t.v. and play golf, and now get sick, on the tax payers dime, I might add. Or do you just want to talk about the mis fortune of others in a particular socially elite class? You can’t make this stuff up in Holliwood. A Kennedy served with distinction in WW2, more than the one who wants to save me from the truth.

      • 1stblue,

        I always enjoy a debate,… but I just ain’t goin’ there. I am reminded of a couple of sayings though that I have heard over the years. 1) Things that always were,.. are not anymore. 2) A fellow swore he was standing atop a rock,.. when in fact it was quick sand,.. yet swore it to be a rock, right up til the end. 3) Well?,… I guess it would be,.. Be careful what you wish for.


      • 1stblue,

        I’m sorry if you misunderstood my point! Somehow it must have touched a raw nerve in you. The rest of your examples had nothing to do with illusions leading to bad ends. I would never question those tragic accidents involving astronauts or the heroic service in PT Boats by JFK!

        “Optical illusions are everywhere and they can lead to BAD outcomes.”

        I ripped no one. I just used two high profile examples of optical illusions leading to bad outcomes.

        I hope that helps you understand where I’m coming from and allows you to not be so upset.


        • So, I know snark when I read it, but yes, my goat can be got, I am a little touchy about my heroes, flawed they may be. I always thought NASA was a good deal, even if all I got out of the deal were space food sticks, Tang, and Mylar. The V.W. is a serious ding in my book, tho. That, and orange overalls for G.I. Joe.
          Be well!

          • 1stblue,

            Your SNARK detector needs to go to the Cal Lab for a recalibration.

            You need to read the NTSB Accident Report on the Kennedy Jr. crash. Or the Teddy accident investigation at the bridge. Both of those had nighttime illusions as the core causal factor.

            I have got to ask… V.W. (as in Volks Wagon?) what has that got to do with NASA? Also G.I. Joe’s Orange Flight Suit as well as the Astronaut’s have a lineage dating from Naval Aviators Bright Orange Flight Suits post Korean War and ending with the Vietnam Police Action changeover to ones in green. I know i would Not have been happy flying/running around ‘Nam in one of those Orange ones I wore as a Flight Instructor. They must have had lots of the Orange Flight Suits in the Naval Stores to get rid of and gave them to NASA.


  13. B.B.,
    Great job, thanks for humoring us and giving it one more go. I had high hopes of seeing better groups after the additional measures. You definitely cleared something out of the barrel but I guess there were more problems.



    • Fish,

      I like the idea. I have never played with them but think I have a site or two saved.

      I will ask,… are they like air guns? It could be like us and our,.. “bb guns”. More than meets the eye perhaps? Not sure I need another “rabbit hole” to go down. 😉 I ain’t found my way out of THIS one yet! 🙂


      • I’ve recently grown interest in them. I like cheap, addictive toys. I was about to buy one from BassPro, but it was an over 20 bucks joke. I’ve decided to build a better one with a 1/2 in 5 ft PVC pipe and a 1/2 3/4 female reducer adaptor. Using camo tape and etc… it’ll be an under 5 dollar decent blowgun. Actually, I was wondering if the .50 cal blowgun darts would work in a 1/2 PVC pipe. In theory, they might, but there is always a but…

        • B.B.,

          I think it would be a good idea to do this every month, with a different high end airgun each month. I would not want to send Pyramyd AIR into the poor house doing this so it would have to go thru the powers that be, so could you send it up the flagpole and see if it is doable?


          • Mike,

            You bring up a most interesting quandary. “Quandary” you ask? Where does a company draw the line?

            I will admit,.. I do frequent GTA, HAM and AGN daily,… but this is “home”.

            I think?,.. that PA is a “sponsor” on all 3 sites. As you might know,.. these (GTA and AGN anyways) are wide open and have many threads going on at the same time. Contest are a frequent event. Sponsor,.. sponsored giveaways.

            I saw this “shift” taking place several years ago and (pretty sure) I have questioned BB on this,.. and just what is the current “lay of the land”? As I recall,.. no comment.

            I am all for “spreading the word” and info. sharing to further the industry. But,.. at the end of the day,.. it is about the bottom line for any 1 specific vendor in the current mix. X amount of giveaway will = how much return?

            I do not think that it is as easy as,… “let’s give away a top end air gun every month”.

            But,.. what do I know? 😉


            • Chris,

              Thinking about the monthly giveaway it is a somewhat complex business decision 3 points come to mind.

              1. Can we afford to giveaway 12 $1,000 airguns in a year and not damage the bottom line.

              2. Come tax time we can write off $12,000 in business losses.

              3. More traffic at the blog, more readers, more posters, more sales.

              Pyramyd AIR used to do a $5,000 Christmas giveaway using the folks wish list but I do not recall them doing it last year and probably not this year either.

              The profit margin is not so great on airguns or PA is just rolling profits back into the company, a wise choice for sure.

              It is a nice thing that someone will get the Godfathers Golden (desert) gun.

              Classic Firearms must have deep pockets as they give away a high end firearm almost weekly https://www.classicfirearms.com/ this week a $10,000 package.


              • Mike,

                Yea,.. not sure. I think? PA did the BIG contest last year and this year,.. but I might be wrong.

                What is nice is to see all these (small time) You Tube guys that started doing air gun reviews and have made it into jobs and competition notoriety. Quite a few of those guys get loaner guns and sponsored along the way.

                I seem to recall that BB has said on more than one occasion that mark up is not all that great on air gun stuff. 11% off and free shipping seems to be about a good as it gets around here. Oh,.. the 4 for 3 on pellets too. That gives you a pretty good idea where the break even point lies.

                One thing for sure,… the industry is hot right now.


            • BB,
              Doesn’t have to be a $1000 giveaway every month. It could be a ~$1000 yearly thing – a giveaway under ~$80 monthly. The value of the giveaway could be adjusted according to the yearly budget – one month, something $30, the next month, something over $100. I cannot think of any better way of marketing – motivating the customers to visit the site every single day…

  14. I don’t know if this Tell BB Gun has a chance of achieving mediocre accuracy but this series can’t help but remind me of the Swedish Excellent that B.B. did awhile back. Sizing / sorting the ammo was a revelation that I’ll never forget from B.B.’s Swedish Excellent testing.

    • Fish,

      The 753 will have it all over the others in accuracy at that range. That is what it was designed for.

      The 499 would be cheaper to buy and feed, but you would have to shorten your range for great accuracy. Also, it will be more difficult for most adults to shoulder properly. Too short.

      The TR5 is a cheap Chinese copy of an air rifle that had mediocre accuracy at best.

      Now, is the 30S you refer to a Weihrauch HW30S? If so, that is the one I would personally buy. I bought my grandson one in .177 for him to learn to shoot with. At 10 meters it would probably give a 753 a hard way to go. If you stretched it out to 25 yards, I am fairly certain it would do better than a 753. It also has a very slight advantage in power. I have an old Feinwerkbau rear aperture to mount on it and later I will change that to a scope, maybe.

      Would I get one in .22? Myself, no. I would step up to the HW50 for more power and range. I have a low powered .22. You will not be happy with it.

      Of course, you do have to consider your backstop. It is easier to stop a slow .177 than a fast .177.

    • Fish,

      There is one other thing you need to keep in mind.

      You are asking for our opinions. You will likely find everyone of us has a slightly different one.

      As an example, I am strictly an outdoor shooter. I am also one who likes long range shooting. At close range (25 yards or less) I like “plinking”. Hence the spinners, empty CO2 cartridges and feral soda cans.

      I do take my plinking very serious though. The various air rifles I plink with our very accurate. My plinking air pistol is a Baikal 46M. I have owned a Daisy 717 and a Webley Tempest, but got rid of them because they were not accurate enough. I do own a Webley Senior now and it is nowhere as accurate as my Izzy, but it is going nowhere. That is a long story in itself.

      You may need to rethink the question you are asking and who you are asking. The question you should be asking is “What am I going to do with this airgun?” and ask it of yourself. Give it serious thought. Decide what you want this airgun to do. None of them will do everything, but some will cover a range of options well.

      • I don’t have the backyard / outdoor option anymore. As a plinker, I’d like it to be a casual fun with airguns – getting into the car and driving to a range or an out of town safe spot won’t work, not practical for me. Indoor is the way to go. So I know what I’ll do with it; that’s how my list came up.

  15. For 10 meter shooting, your choices will all work. Some better and some much better. For BBs the 499 is the way to go. Ammo cost is minuscule compared to lead pellets. BBs can also be reused from a soft lined trap. Front and rear sites are entry level but very usable.

    The TR5 will introduce you to the vagaries of the springer type recoil for zero chance of any accuracy gain. Cool looking, but I would prefer an original Russian gun.

    I don’t know if the 30S comes with a factory option for target sights. That would be an additional cost consideration.

    The 753 is the 10 meter target gun on your list. I have an original Gamo made one. Nice gun as are the later ones. Shoots better than most shooters. Full size gun with enough heft to aid in position shooting. If you are willing to put in the hours of practice this gun will see you far down the accuracy trail.

      • Fish,

        Whooow, dude! Talk about a step up! Those things are awesome! I used to own one. BB owns it now. If you get one, do not bother with the 499 unless you just want to shoot bbs. The 499 will have nothing on the Edge at any range except cost.

        If you get an Edge, start saving your pennies to buy an eighteen inch barrel. It will give you a little more velocity. When you get tired of the “Bloop!”, I can tell you how I made mine real quiet. If you should decide the trigger is not “nice” enough, I can tell you how I made mine lighter, very crisp and with almost zero overtravel.

        Another thing I would highly recommend is, even if you have read these reports of BB’s before, read them again. He has put out more good information about this air rifle than anyone else out there.




        P.S. I want another. If you get one and do not like it, let me know. We will work something out.

        • If 10m range was doable, then why not a competition 10m rifle, I thought. When you think that way, Edge actually turns out to be an economical choice. Buying it would be better than buying an 753 and then wanting to buy something else, until you have everything right, from trigger to barrel – you know how it is…
          The problem is will 10m space even be possible, not worth it for a range that’s shorter. I’m guessing 499 will be the one for me.

  16. B.B.,

    For me I hope the blog does not start giveaways on a regular basis. As Shootski said what is next popup adds.

    Folks posting just to enter the contest will dilute the quality of the comments. There is a reason this is the only blog I follow daily.


    • Maybe the quality won’t be diluted. Maybe giveaways won’t lead to popup ads either. Actually, it might even be good for the blog. Having a couple of new folks around could be fun.

      • Fish,

        There was a thread on another forum that asked about how people felt about PA’s flat out bombing e-mail accts. with new stuff. The consensus was that it majorly ticked off at least 80-90% of the PA customers. Most unsubscribed and those that did not were in the market for a deal and currently shopping.


      • Fish,

        I am a member of Airgun Nation. All I do there is make entries when they have giveaways and occasionally check their classifieds.

        There is nothing wrong with Airgun Nation or similar forums as they are a good way to communicate with other airgunners and ask questions.

        As for this blog, we are provided with an education, can read “standardized” reviews and communicate with each other in a monitored venue. Although I get out of hand every once in a while, we tend to act civilized with each other. We come here to learn, to gain knowledge from BB and others.

        We are indeed blessed that PA sponsors this blog and lets BB run with it as he sees fit. We appreciate it enough that we do not post links to PA’s direct competition, or even mention them by name.

        Now, as for your concern with lead dust. Build a “silent” pellet trap using the recommended putty to capture the pellets and bbs.

        • RR,

          My take on that is,… (discussion forums) are one thing and (vendor sites),.. like PA,.. are different.

          You could argue that another discussion forum is in “competition” with this one,.. but that seems a bit trivial.

          As for vendors like PA,… like A of A,…. then I do agree that we should (not) do direct links to PA’s competition out of respect for PA. They are both for profit and often are selling the same items.

          I can see where some people might have confusion and be afraid to link/mention anything at all here.

          As for loyalty, I give PA first option on anything I buy,… to a point. I will pay “some” extra for PA being local, easy call up, great service, great pellet packaging, etc.,… to a point. And now,.. air guns, stuff and ammo seem to be in very short supply industry wide right now,.. so you may have to go somewhere else.

          That’s my take on the topic.


    • Don,

      I think you are right, doing it thru the blog would not be good. I do not think it will happen anyway but if it did it should be like some of the other giveaways Pyramyd AIR has done, just a simple page on the PA website where you submit you email address.


  17. For outside shooting at feral cans I still use the Red Ryder the most. No need to reload, easy to cock. Plenty accurate to 25 yards. No I don’t hit the can every time at 25 yards, that is too boring. I toss cans from 5 yards out to 20 yards. After shooting the cans move away so the hold over keeps changing. I don’t factor in an estimate of the yardage and the hold over. I use the sight picture to set the hold over. Often the bottom of the front blade is above the top of the rear sight to get enough hold over. I usually start locking in on the hold over after 20 or 30 shots. I don’t sholder the gun, I place the stock against the side my chin where I get a good alignment with the sights.

    So for 60 bucks for the gun, 5 bucks for 2400 rounds of daisy premium bbs and 4 bucks for a tube of Crosman Pellgun oil your are good for hours of shooting. The Red Ryder is also reliable, keep the ammo clean, especially if you recycle it. Give the Red Ryder a couple drops of oil in the oil hole every time you use it.

    Building a longer stock out of a board would be a piece of cake, I like it the way it is.

    So for 70 bucks that is hard to beat.

    It could be fun inside with animated reactive targets. Just be aware of ricochets.

    Always wear safety glasses.


    • Don,

      25 yards for a Red Ryder????,… you DO like a challenge! 😉 And I ain’t talkin’ about the bb gettin’ there either,… but rather the 12″ random circle that it “might” land within. 🙂


      • Chris,

        Yep 15 yards is a fairly easy hit. At 25 that is where I give up. 20 yards is less than 50 50 hit. I would guess with your magnum 499 20 yards would be 50 50 or better.


        • Don,

          I have not tried it at 25 yards,… but I think 50/50 is fair. The peeps have the advantage over the opens and I would go rested.

          A quick check of notes,…. the “magnum 499″ did 8 of 10 shots in 7/8” at 42′ (14 yards). So,… minute of pop can might be doable at 25 yards.


          • Chris U,

            I had not really ever measured or counted targets with my Red Ryder so it was my best guess. I made a wire hanger to hold a Pepsi can at the right distance.

            I decided to test for my self. Here are the results of 10 shots in a row:

            10 yds 9 out of 10 hits.

            After this I decided to start my test after two shots hit the can.

            15 yds 7 out of 10 hits

            20 yds 4 out of ten hits

            After this I figured 25 was out of the question, but it took maybe 10 shots at 20 yards to get two in a row. So I was warming up and locking into the gun. Sometimes that happens. I hit the can on my first shot at 25 yds so I just kept on going.

            25 yds 6 out of ten hits

            Don’t ask me to do it again.

            Chris your peep sight would be good but would need to be raised a few inches. On the Red Ryder I had the barrel band sitting in the bottom of the rear notch and the top of the front blade just over the top of the can. They were lob shots for sure but that is what is fun when you get locked in. That puts a smile on my face.

            I was having more trouble with windage than elevation at the shorter ranges because of a breeze and the can was hanging vertical.


            PS I did not follow my oun advice and did not oil the gun till after the 15 yard shots. Also I was shooting sitting down. For 10, 15, and 20 yds I had my elbows on the table. When I went to 25 yards I decided to go with out my elbows rested it just felt better.

            • Don,

              LOL!!!!! x 10 !!!! 🙂

              Thank you for going to ALL of that effort to see where (in fact) the humble Red Ryder resides in the “long range” bb shooting world. Quite impressive,.. in my opinion.

              I can relate to being “locked in”. That does make a difference.

              Not sure,… but you may have set the new high bar for the Red Ryder? 😉


            • Michael,

              Per notes, 255 fps, RR spring mod 412 fps (both avg., for 10 shots) 409-414 spread.

              Oddly, new stock was 205 and I tore it down and did a re-lube an got 255. Still 100% stock. Maybe it was not broke in yet?

              Cobalt got as high as 421.

              Yea,… I have been into it about 4 times. It is worth it.


                • BB,

                  I really struggle with getting pics from the phone, to my e-mail, to saved and posted again. I have done it,…but wow! I do not do it often. I am sure I have said quite a bit already in the past when someone showed interest,… but I am sure that comments are scattered over several blogs.

                  It is not hard. I do have a pic of the homemade spring tool that Cobalt posted. That is the biggest thing. Not so much taking apart, but rather going back together with the stronger spring.

                  You could do it very easy with all of your tear down experience. If you are interested, I could give you a few pointers. It is well worth it and I think that you would be very pleasantly surprised. I probably have other related saved links too but would have to verify.


                  • Chris,

                    I have one Red Ryder that is a little bit better (Less bad?) than a 12 gauge. But yep, your’re right. They are fun to shoot, but where the BB goes, nobody klnows, not for sure!

                    This 499 is a keeper no matter what, but also no matter what, it isn’t a magnum like yours.


              • Chris,

                My first 499, which I still have, shoots around 230 fps. Late last year I purchased one that shoots about 325 fps. I don’t know if it has been gone into to make it hotter than stock or if it was simply an overachiever right off the line.


                • Michael,

                  I assume those are actual chrony numbers,.. as best you “about” remember? PA says 240. I can’t explain 325. I doubt they changed springs, but maybe they did. A check of older/newer models (if applicable) VS spring part #’s may be in order.


                  If you have the manuals, there is an exploded view that list part #’s.

                  • Chris,

                    Ah! You are indeed a careful reader – excellent. I wish more of my students had been so.

                    “Around 230” is my recollection when I chronied my first 499. I really erred by adding “about” when I wrote of the second 499. It was between 325 and 330 for the five shots I put over the chrony. I remember because I was very interested in seeing how that second one performed because that high velocity was the reason I purchased it, used, from Dennis Baker. He chronies most of the used air guns he sells and puts an fps number right there in the description. Over the years I have bought five or six air guns from him and every single one chronied extremely close to what he got.

                    My experience is that he is a top-drawer seller, completely forthcoming. I’ve had enough disappointments in air gun purchases that the way he does business means a lot to me. Dennis is among the very best IMO.

                    It is a hot shooter for a 499. In his description Dennis would have added if it had been modded for more power to his knowledge. I suspect the original owner did indeed soup it up a bit, and Dennis simply did not notice that it was roughly 100 fps. over spec. After all, 325 is right there with what a new Red Ryder can do.


                    • Michael,

                      Not bad. The seal is hard plastic. Given seal OD, wear, compression chamber ID, lube,.. I guess it is possible.

                      I did a TX200 seal from a Vortek kit,… as best I recall. I sanded the OD down a bit and shaved the inner lip of the seal to make it more pliable (parachute),.. but did not really gain (or loose) anything from the stock hard seal.

                      As you already know,… there is not a finer or more accurate bb shooter on the market. 😉


                    • Michael,

                      10 shots from a Red Ryder looks more like a shotgun blast. 10 from a 499 looks more like 1/2″. Of course,… you already know that! 😉


  18. Benji-Don,

    You just made my day! I don’t think that I would have ever thought about shooting a Red Ryder at “long range!” It sounds like an absolute blast (and cheap, too)! I have shot at lots of cans in the back yard, but haven’t really stretched the range. I know a lot of people who love to shoot at gongs (offhand) at the rifle range because they make a satisfying sound when hit. But by doing it in miniature with a Red Ryder and a soda can sounds like great fun. (and did I already mention cheap, too?)
    Thanks again.


    • Bill,

      The Red Ryder is so stress free. It is not a tack driver, so there is no bad feeling when you miss, and a bit of joy when you hit. I try not to focus too much and just build up a good muscle memory and consistent technique.

      Before you know it you have 50 shots down range. I have been thinking of putting the cans close an trying shots from the hip. There was a bb gun made for that but I forget it’s name.


  19. B.B.,

    Glad IT finally sees the issue! I thought it was because they didn’t recognize your NEW Byline monicker:

    “by Tom GaylordZ
    Writing as B.B. Pelletier”

    Who is this GaylordZ guy?


    More seriously; on the Golden Gun contest if TODAY is the day you already have a number of posters…I know it is a technicality but some folks still post to older posts from time to time…do they count?



  20. PA,
    I don’t want to be a difficult customer 😉 , but I think a section for blowguns is a must for an airgun vendor. When you shop for a blowgun online, all you see it over priced junk. I believe it would be profitable for PA if she sold quality ones.

    • Fish,

      I have not delved into the “quality” aspects of blow guns. Do you know what dictates “quality”? I do not.

      Like airguns, quality can be a bit subjective. Fit, finish, accuracy, build material, etc.,… just to name a few.


      • /blog/2017/05/blowguns-the-first-airguns/
        above link explains most I’d like to say.
        quality issue… u know there’re airguns at amazon, walmart, academy, basspro and such; mostly good looking but cheap and inaccurate. if u want quality pellets and this and that, u find an online shop like PA —- just like that… yeah, it’s a subjective matter but i think u get what i’m saying…
        quality bgs such as: cold steel hunting bgs, 4ft single piece competition bgs, even 6-8 ft ‘originals’ made from bamboo and etc…

        • Fish,

          I do remember reading that. Yea,… that is a pretty good primer on the topic. Link saved for further review (which includes sub-links to other resources).

          Thanks,… Chris

    • Fish, what’s your experience with blowguns? Share if you like, because I’m a blowgun enthusiast myself. I have a vested interest in seeing them offered by PA, because I have some ideas/designs for some innovations that would not only relate to quality but also new features and performance that would transform the shooting experience.

      • hey mos… nice to meet u buddy…
        i used to build them when i was a kid. usually 2ft – 2.5ft ones made of pvc and such. it was fun. recently, i wanna go back to the hobby and decided to buy one this time, but then i’ve found out they’re horrible. they fall apart, bent out of box, look cheap in hand, and such. i wanted to have a 4ft one, and most come in 2 pieces – so no accuracy. cold steel is not bad, but their cal-s are for hunting and you get stuck with their darts only – they offer no target darts, this and that… building them is more fun anyhow. i wanna learn to make them wth bamboo one day – ‘old school.’ :^)
        i’ve bought 2ft and 4ft 1/2 pvcs. 2ft one will be nice, but i noticed the other is not straight. actually good luck finding a flawlessly straight 4ft pvc, they all are bent a little. i wanna learn how to straighten them.
        long story short, i wish to be able to find a good quality single piece 4 ft 50 or 40 cal blowgun that can shoot target darts like a boss, and i’ve not seen any yet.
        what’s ur story, man?

        • Fish,

          I assume that you have hit the local big box home improvement store, like Lowe’s or Home Depot?

          Also, McMaster Carr industrial catalog has literally everything you could ever want. You can order on line.


        • Fish, it’s true the two piece barrels are generally a joke. The plastic connectors don’t keep things aligned. Cold Steel actually makes a 1 piece 4 foot blowgun that is sub 40 caliber. I don’t know how good the quality is on it. If you are willing to go the .625 caliber route, one easy way to mod some Cold Steel darts into target darts is to order a set of their “Zytel Broadheads”. I dislike the plastic broadheads, but if you take some boltcutters and cut the broadhead off, you’re left with the steel shaft, which performs pretty well for target shooting, even if you don’t sharpen the tip of the shaft, since it’s pretty narrow. The other advantage to the Zytel darts is that the cones seemed to be molded with a slightly thinner wall, so it’s pretty easy to find 1/2 inch EMT conduit that will fit– most of the Cold Steel .625 darts fit too tight to work in the conduit. For straightening PVC, you might be able to bind it to a piece of aluminum angle or corner guard and brace it straight that way.

  21. BB

    Okay, with the system down I have an unrelated question.

    After adjusting both vertical and windage knobs when sighting in a UTG scope do you shoot a pellet or two with the locking clamps unlocked to overcome any stiction before locking?


    • Decksniper,

      Do you have evidence or strong suspicions that your UTG scope has stiction? Back in the day we always ran past by a few MOA/MRAD of our elevation or windage calculated setting and then rolled back to ensure we got rid of backlash. But on todays scopes, even mid price range, that doesn’t seem to be as common of a problem.
      Some folks swear by tapping or even strong banging on scopes! I don’t believe either really works for stiction elimination. I believe it is backlash you are possibly experiencing.


      • Shootski

        No evidence of stiction with UTG scopes but yes for some combo package scopes. I was just curious to know what others did. I bump a shoe heel against a stuck scope.

        I too roll back adjustment knob but only if the direction applies more spring tension. I have no proof my way is better.


        • Deck,

          “I too roll back adjustment knob but only if the direction applies more spring tension. I have no proof my way is better.”

          I apply the KISS Principle especially when shooting under pressure; so I use the rollback on any adjustment since it only adds a split second to the process.


    • Decksniper,

      I always sight in on the bench, and I always end up shooting a string of ten individual bulls after I think I’m done. I lock the turrets when I am done, and I’ve never seen them move from that action.

      I honestly think that if there is a stiction issue, then most PCPs are not likely to break them loose. Of course a springer would be no issue on that front.

    • Perfect timing Shootski!

      I am heading out to set-up me scope right after I have my coffee (and read what you have posted)!



      Great stuff Shootski but more that a “coffees’ read”, will review in detail later.

      For a short discussion on cant this is pretty good. I first saw this a while ago (think it was on the yellow forum) and more recently on AGN.



      • Hank,

        Thank you! really good read with a Big mug of coffee.
        But then you know my level of interest in excuse elimination! The reply by KWK: “Most of the mounts airgunners are using are offset left or right depending on which side you put the screw heads on. If they only have a moveable clamp on one side they are almost certainly going to introduce cant.” is a good post about scope offset caused by scope base and typical dovetail variability (non-standardization by another word) in width, depth, and finally radial accuracy relative to the Bore Axis. That is one of the reasons I have a gunsmith I trust do my direct mounts and MIL-STD-1913 rail or STANAG 2324 rail (as you know not every Picatinny rail is the REAL McCoy) mounting. The nice thing is it eliminates most all of possibilities of the Bore to base errors. I figure the folks that will benefit most from my specialized CANT post will know the squirrel wood and the problems with the Rifleman’s Rule of Thumb for the rodents that inhabit the tops of trees. Of course it works great for depressed angles in the mountains for any hunter. Maybe treestand hunters could benefit if they could just stay awake?


      • BB,
        I was kidding of course…
        By the bye, I have a new design for the contest – a way better concept than the flying cotton swabs. I’ll submit it here in a week. Quite excited!

      • BB,

        Do you really think they are working on it at this hour in the morning? Well, I guess if they are in India, they just might be.

        A man with a heavy accent answers the phone. “This is Peggy. How may I help you?”

        Hey! Laugh! That was funny and you know it!

            • RR,
              I am not offended. I just didn’t want your sense of humor to give a bad name to my beautiful country; not every American find these kinds of jokes funny. I’m American, and I did not laugh.
              No, that was not funny.

            • I believe this is one of the funniest ethnic-accent-culture humor moments experienced by FM; it captures just about all the angles for these type jokes. Did I say Angles? That was an UP – Unintended Pun.

              My family roots are found in Northern Spain. However, I am not offended by humor involving Spanish accents and other quirks particular to Spaniards. I say there is something wrong with any people who cannot laugh at themselves, by Jove!


                • Never took offense.
                  -FM; aka, depending on setting and period as: Mr. Magoo, Short Stuff, El Squirto, Tolouse (as in Lautrec), Tatoo and other nicknames not to be repeated in polite company. There are reasons why FM prefers shooting smaller/less powerful weapons and driving small cars.

            • Fish,

              This short video explains the Midwestern United States accent (and that there IS such an accent), including the Cleveland accent. Indcidentally, the Chicago accent is an animal on its own and is pronounced and distinct. The actors Dennis Farina and Dennis Franz are definitive examples.

              Edward McClelland Explains the Northern Cities Vowel Shift



                • Fish
                  I live in the Midwest.

                  I’m about 20 miles east of St.louis.

                  And your going to find out if this is your first round about talking on a blog or forum that you might just get offended more as time goes on.

                  Everybody is not going to worry about what everyone thinks.

                  Believe me I could do some heavy duty remarks back at things that have been said here on the blog.

                  And who knows just might if the mood strikes me right.

                  I guess its that Midwest farm blood that trys to keep poking up here and there.

                  It is what it is. Sometimes it’s hard to be diplomatic. You know what I mean.

                  It will be ok sooner or later. Or maybe not.

                  • I was not offended, but many were offended with my opinion. I guess it’s because I tell the truth. Unless you agree with laughing at such jokes, then you might wanna consider directing this comment to the other side.

                    • Fish
                      The problem is what might offend one might not offend another.

                      I do the same. Tell the truth.

                      If you want to talk about airguns then talk about it. If you have a problem with a comment get in it and be ready. Or stay out and talk about what you want.

                      Believe me its too way easy to get critical if a person wants to go there.

                      Just another form of politics. You know what I mean.

                    • Fish,

                      I live in the far west suburbs of Chicago. Around here we have the same accent that Lester Holt, David Muir and other national TV news anchors have. I think of it as the United States’ equivalent of the U.K. “BBC Accent.”

                      I do not find “jokes” that are designed to denigrate groups of people funny. Jokes that put down people for the way God made them do not appeal to me. They don’t offend me, but I would prefer we all instead be guided by “the better angels of our nature,” as Abraham Lincoln said in his first inaugural address.


                  • Gunfun1,

                    You are right!

                    For everyone:

                    WE! Each of us is DIFFERENT from everyone else. We are each subject to abuse(s) of one sort or another and making major issues about all the minor slights HERE is not going to make ANY of us feel better about ourselves or anyone else. There are remedies for the serious issues we face BUT this isn’t the place to resolve them.

                    This is a blog mostly (about) AIRGUNS and airgun related things with many different biased airgun people from all over the World reading and responding; some of them are Dyed-in-the-Wool Spring Piston, some are Multipump, some are Single stroke, some are Any pneumatic, others are Big Bore, and some multi-shot! If we can all get along (mostly) about airguns then that is all we can hope for.

                    As for the rest…if we ALL try for politeness about all the rest of the stuff we will be able to keep this an informative place to come and beat up one another about our airgun related biases.

                    Our Host, Tom Gaylord is tolerant….

                    shootski (former Alien, born elsewhere, discriminated against by everyone! Typical condition of every other Human on this Planet)

                    • “Our Host, Tom Gaylord is tolerant…”

                      Unfortunately, and through no fault of Tom, his blog seems to be getting less so. Perhaps we should get back to and stick to air guns.


                    • All I did was share a link with RR. To be honest with you guys, I moved on after that point . I cannot help some took it personally. Good luck to y’all with ur choices in life. I’m in peace with the fact that not everybody has to agree with me.

  22. B.B.,

    Very nice shooting with the old girl!

    Errata: Second to last sentence in the report introduction: “What is (it) does need is a good trigger, good sights and a good ergonomic set of grips. Let’s see what this LP2 has.

    Glad you and IT got it sorted.


      • Michael,

        NO worries,
        I tried to post the errata to the current blog on the LP2 Part 3 and it wound up posting here instead. Either I messed up or the blog platform remains unstable. I reposted the correction to the right place as you may have already noticed.



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