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Ammo What can be done (to make a good air rifle)?: Part One

What can be done (to make a good air rifle)?: Part One

Abrams tank
The Abrams tank is one of the most highly-developed main battle tanks in the world, if not the most!

This report covers:

  • Accuracy
  • Cheap?
  • Different airgun ammo
  • Powerplant?
  • Last remark
  • Summary 1
  • Trigger
  • Sights
  • Final summary

Michael, Michael, Michael! Sometimes someone asks a question that makes all the neurons in my brain fire at once. You asked the million-dollar question Monday and this is the start of my answer.

“Someone once asked the late film critic Gene Siskel why there are so few good movies. Siskel repied, “That’s because it is really hard to make a good movie.” I must ask, is it really hard to make a good air rifle? (A future topic, perhaps?)”

Please note, RidgeRunner, that he did NOT ask if it’s really hard to make a good cheap airgun. I thought he did at first, but when I pondered it for a day I realized that would make an even better report.

Accuracy

You gotta have accuracy or the gun won’t be any good. And even THAT is not a hundred percent because I have a friend who is a retired cop. He shot a RAW MicroHunter last week and liked how accurate it is but he really wanted a semiautomatic. I told him the difficulties of making semiautonatic airguns and asked if a belt-fed airgun would suffice. “Sure,” he said. “As long as the gun fires every time I pull the trigger.”

I then informed him that said airgun (Sig Virtus) wasn’t that accurate. “That’s okay,” he assured me. “As long as every time I pull the trigger a pellet goes out.” Okay, thought I — different strokes for different folks.

Cheap?

Here might be how to get accuracy cheaply. Remember the Abrams tank? Its 120mm cannon barrel is not rifled; it’s a smoothbore! And yet that tank can hit an enemy tank at two miles with a sabot round. 

Abrams tank round
Abrams Tank sabot round in flight.

A sabot round goes out the muzzle of an M1 tank at greater than 5,000 f.p.s. It is spin-stabilized by the fins on its back. No known armor is impervious to it and the accuracy is stunning!

Okay, Michael, here’s how you get accuracy cheaply. At least this is how the US Army does it. Move the projectile very fast and stabilize it with fins. It might look like that projectile is a small rocket, but that’s just turbulent air. That is a ballistic long rod penetrator. I have to be careful here because some of this is classified, or was when I got out a million years ago.

Different airgun ammo

This is a project for airgun ammo makers to work on. If we can achieve accuracy at our velocities, which are far slower than a mile a second, perhaps we can have accurate smoothbore airguns? Don’t feel sorry for Lothar Walther. They just have to learn how to make precision smoothbore barrels.

Powerplant?

You see in the title I called this report Part One? I did so for several reasons, and airgun powerplants is one of them. I think each powerplant — pneumatic, spring-piston and CO2 — deserves its own report. Pneumatics may deserve one for each type — multi-pump, single stroke and precharged. I am considering today to be a precharged pneumatic (PCP) report, because tomorrow I want to show you an airgun that pretty much checks all the boxes.

Build a Custom Airgun

Last remark

Talking about barrels, here is something else. Design the gun to accept interchangeable barrels. AirForce was brilliant to make their Talon accept .177, .20, .22 and .25-caliber barrels. Owners can change them in 10 minutes or less. Buying just a spare barrel gives you a whole new airgun. Brilliant!

Summary 1

Before going forward, let me summarize by saying accuracy is very important to many shooters — but not to all. And the technology exists to get superb accuracy from a smoothbore barrel, if the ammunition will support it. Whether that can work with airguns remains to be seen.

Trigger

A good trigger is part of what makes a good airgun. Weihrauch created the Rekord around 1955 and the world has copied and improved upon it ever since. And we talk about the trigger in the Marauder all the time. Brilliant!

Whether it is single or two-stage, make the trigger smooth and precise — repeatable. It doesn’t have to be adjustable, but if it is, make it REALLY adjustable — not something with placebo screws!

And give it a positive stop after the sear releases. It doesn’t have to be fancy; it just has to work.

Sights

Give thought to the sights. Crosman used to make non-optical sights that were BOTH peep and open and set up for BOTH near and far, with adjustments for each. And, they were relatively inexpensive to make!

TC sight 1
Front sight from the Crosman 108 Town and Country multi-pump. With the tall “town” sight up, the rifle shoots low–for close-up shots.


TC sight 2
The knurled nut twists out, freeing the tall sight to pivot to the right…

TC sight 3
…and reveal the short “country” sight for longer ranges.

TC sight 4
Not only is there an aperture sight in the rear, above it there’s an open notch. For people who want it all!

See? Cheap! And THAT, readers Vana2 and pacoinohio, is why I report on historical airguns that you no longer can buy!

Summary

Michael, yes good airguns can be made. And they don’t all have to conform to what I think. But there are things to consider and I have touched on three of them in the PCP realm today. 

RidgeRunner, good airguns can often be cheap, if consideration is given up front.

And now I bet you guys have so much more to add!

155 thoughts on “What can be done (to make a good air rifle)?: Part One”

  1. BB,
    I am happy Michael asked that question; this looks like it will be an interesting series of reports!
    And I love that pic, “Abrams Tank sabot round in flight.” That is SO cool; thank you! 🙂
    Blessings to you,
    dave

    • in modern warfare a tank is a big waste of money. can be taken out with cheap shoulder fired weapons. I am sure a special rocket was made for the old RPG also. the merkarva tank an improved abrams was just taken out by a cheap drone that dropped what looked like a mortar shell landed on the turret and the tank was rendered useless

      • mildot52,

        The Abrams is quite resistant to drone attacks…as a system employed correctly.

        The Ukraine is an example of government by actors as well as combatants (some brave for sure) that are all actors too. There will be much to study and learn in the Military Arts once that conflict has a final curtain call.

        All weapons systems are a BIG WASTE OF RESOURCES! Every weapon system is obsolete before it is fielded since it is a stand alone. In order to understand weapons one needs to understand the strategic, tactical, and operational employment of a system within systems by either skilled or less skilled planners and operators.

        I bet you believe manned aircraft and Aircraft Carriers, Surface Ships are obsolete too. That’s what the ATTACK Submariners sell until they get their heads handed to them by a skillfully employed system of systems made up of aircraft and Surface ships.

        shootski

        • shootski,

          Just think (I can tell that you have) what our annual budget could buy if no national defense were required? How much better would our schools, hospitals, first-responder institutions, transportation infrastructure, energy infrastructure, utilities infrastructure, and agricultural-everything be? Simply put, how much higher would our quality of life be?

          (Note: President Eisenhower originally drafted his warning to be wary of a “military-Industrial-government complex”.)

          “. . . [W]e must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.” Dwight D. Eisenhower, January 17, 1961

          Michael

            • Tom,

              Surely you cannot believe the people of Israel enjoy having so many neighbors that desire their destruction, especially this week? The Israelis I have known (and there have been hundreds I have known well) would rather the events of this past week had not happened, that there were no threats to Israel such as Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran.

              If you asked Israelis how they would feel “if no national defense were required” for their country, I promise you many would feel relieved and wonderful. Today their thirst for revenge would color their response, but everyone wants to be safe. Israelis, too.

              Do you believe people enjoy living in perpetual danger? I do not.

              Michael

              • Michael,

                Do I think they enjoy living in perpetual danger? Of course not. But with terrorists in the world, they don’t have a choice. Nor do we. Remember 911.

                BB

                • Tom,

                  I do remember 9/11, painfully well.

                  I also remember above writing, “if no national defense were required?” “If” and “were” indicate what we grammarian eggheads call subjunctive mood. Put simply, it means NOT what happened or NOT what happens, but what IF.

                  An example would be in “Fiddler on the Roof” when Tevye, who is poor, sings “If I were a rich man . . . .” Tevye knows he is not rich; he just imagines what it would be like. Tevye sings, “If” and “were,” not “When I was.” “Were” is not the same as “was” or “is.” There were snobs in my department who had a derisive name for folks who would say, “If I was.” They called them “we was-ers.”

                  Really. I wrote, “if no national defense were required?” Honest. Look up there and reread it.

                  Michael

          • Michael,

            In an IDEAL World; perhaps.
            ” How much better would our schools, hospitals, first-responder institutions, transportation infrastructure, energy infrastructure, utilities infrastructure, and agricultural-everything be? Simply put, how much higher would our quality of life be?”
            But this is anything but an ideal world!
            The reality as historians note is that during periods of conflagration the knowledge (organizational, medical, and technological) gain vastly exceeds that of peaceful periods.

            Remember: A better Peace is hopefully the result of the previous War.

            War: Deter, Fight, Terminate, The Purpose of War is a Better Peace
            Harry G. Summers Jr.
            https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/nwc-review/vol39/iss1/2/

            shootski

            • shootski,

              I’m sorry to have to write this, but what part of “if no national defense were required” do you not understand?

              And you are countering Dwight D. Eisenhower with Harry Summers? That’s like countering Michael Jordan with Urkel.

              Michael

              • Michael,

                I understand what you say conceptually.

                You don’t seem to understand the stagnation and corrupting influence Peace Time has on most all systems of government.

                Unfortunately we will likely never have the time to walk a mile in each others past nor the ability to resolve our very different Weltanschauungen.
                I for one don’t want to inflict that on Tom’s Blog.

                To bad we cannot meet over good food and libations with extended time to understand one another.

                shootski

                • shootski,

                  “In an IDEAL World; perhaps.”

                  Yes, an ideal world, “if no national defense were required?” That is what I was saying! Read it. Carefully.

                  “I understand what you say conceptually.”

                  No, clearly you do not. Apparently you think I was literally saying the world does not need to defend itself. I never said that. Read it. I have a lesson in the meaning of the words “if” and “were” a couple comments above, in response to B.B. also not reading my initial comment carefully.

                  Where we have walked through life has nothing to do with simple English language. If you “don’t want to inflict that on Tom’s Blog,” then read very carefully before you make a comment in response to another’s comment. This “infliction” on the blog is your fault and Tom’s, not mine. Read it carefully.

                  Michael

                • shootski,

                  I was too hard on Harry Summers. He’s OK. But some people can’t see the forest for the trees. Eisenhower was the supreme commander of the allied forces! He planned the victory in Europe. The Allies were the immovable object to the turd reich’s irresistible force. (Boxing matches between the big puncher and the granite chin almost always end with the chin’s glove raised.)

                  I apologize for my tone in places here. (The tone, not the content.) I’ve been under the weather a little for almost a week, and it has made me cranky.

                  Michael

          • Michael,

            From a purely economic perspective the Defense expenditures of the USA are dwarfed by the interest on the National Debt as well as by the Entitlements Programs; not to speak of our funding of organizations like the PA and their Pay to Kill programs… don’t visit the Middle East without knowing what PTK is!

            shootski

            • shootski,

              Don’t visit the Middle East? I have lived in Israel. You?

              Economics? Y’know, when Henry Ford invented the affordable automobile, tens of thousands of blacksmiths, coachmakers, and buggy whip makers had to find a new line of work. And they DID.

              Michael

            • shootski,

              (My apologies for breaking all these responses up, but you lit a flame in my brain.)

              PTK? You like abbreviations. Here’s one: I.D.F. Familiar with it? I assure you I am. I’ve worked a lot of jobs in my day. Ever wonder about my training?

              Michael

              • Michael
                You are talking about the well being of humanity you forget it’s the human nature that makes one want to kill the other. So in the ideal world you want, as we all, you leave the real human out.
                Please note that this comment comes from a citizen of a country that spends a higher percentage of its wealth than USA for defense…

                • Bill,

                  “You forget it’s the human nature that makes one want to kill the other.”

                  Nope. I didn’t forget that. I was bemoaning it. Read my comment and my lesson above on the meaniong of “it” and “were.” You did not read my initial post carefully or correctly.

                  Michael

                • In school I roomed with an about-to-be-commisioned Army Ranger 1st Lieutenant. You know what he said his father, a full bird Colonel in the Rangers, always said about people who saw real action and talked about it constantly? It rhymes with “Lauds.” He would tell his son, “If you have to talk about it, you didn’t do it.”

                  • Michael,

                    I have heard that too!

                    But you see i have one Official Flight Log Book that is full and another nearly so. Many of the places and dates recorded in those can be matched to Post Mission Reports in the Secure Parts of the National Archives; some may even be available by now in redacted form others will likely never meet declassification guidelines.
                    We made it a practice to talk about our missions in proper venues to improve operational safety and future success.

                    IF you could control your need for innuendos it would Honor You.

                    No stolen Valor here.

                    shootski

          • Michael,

            I disagree with some comments in response to yours and yet I wish not to take sides. With that said, I do, however, like your thinking !

            Thanks for offering a peaceful perspective.

          • Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here but more money being spent on schools have not equated to students preforming better.
            Nor has more money spent on the War On Poverty and Drugs equaled better outcomes.
            The people who spent the money on the “Dumbing Down Of America” have had the best return and results……sadly.

            • Actually this time I did not read carefully enough! My Amen still stands for your bemoaning the dumbing down of America and the war on drugs.

              Actual data shows that some (some) social programs do help humanity, but those that are proven to not do so hang on for far too long. Our country is wasteful there.

              One of, perhaps THE single best public high school in the U.S. by any measure is New Trier High School in the ritzy north suburbs of Chicago. It recieves more, perhaps most, in local property taxes (every referendum is passed overwhelmingly) for school funding than any other district in the United States. More dollars are spent per student than perhaps any other district in the U.S. and at least twice the average for Illinois districts overall.

              Read the below about New Trier from Wikipedia:

              “92% of the school’s funding comes from the high property taxes of its affluent surroundings.” “The school was identified as ‘quite possibly the best public school in America’ by Town & Country, in a six-page article on New Trier that cited the ‘rich’ and ‘demanding’ curriculum, extensive arts and activities, strong participation in athletics, and faculty of the caliber typically found teaching at good colleges.[27] Life also recognized New Trier as one of the best high schools in America with cover stories in 1950 and 1998.[28] . . . ”

              98% of its graduates go on to college and graduate from college! They are the best H.S. in the midwest for athletics, drama, music, art, and just about every extra-curricular activity.

              And hey, Charleton Heston graduated there. You can’t argue with Moses! ;^)

              Michael

              • “And hey, Charleton Heston graduated there. You can’t argue with Moses! ;^)”

                I have a friend/part-time who would argue with Mose and Jesus given the opportunity which I’m sure his day will come to do just that 😉
                I hope I’m there to witness that!
                My friend is only part-time because he thinks PCPs/air rifles are overrated. Naturally I disagree but naturally he’ll argue that point too.

                Good chatting with you and when I get to see Moses I’ll put in a good word for U 🙂

      • mildot52,

        The Merkava isn’t a tank and it is contemporary with the Abrams. It’s a thin-skinned Israli armored personel carrier that mounts a small cannon.

        BB

        • bibi I read merkava IV is slightly bigger then an abrams and can fire anti tank rounds from its main gun and the abrams cant. they say it is one of the best tanks. has a diesel V12 1500 HP

          • mildot52,

            Well, I learned something in this discussion. Apparently the Israelis now list the Merkava as a main battle tank. It carries troops, so I call it an armored personnel carrier.

            You say the Merkava’s cannon fires an anti-tank round??? Well the Abrams IS a main battle tank! That’s all it does EVERY round it fires is an anti-tank round. With APDS (armor-piercing discarding sabot) rounds it will kill any tank in the world at 2 miles.

            The Merkava’s 12 cylinder engine which is also used as armor, is powerful but so is the Abrams helicopter turbine. That engine is so powerful that a new transmission had to be developed. Ungoverned Abrams tanks have been clocked at 90 mph and they are governed to 45 mph.

            The Abrams front slope has over a yard of armor while the Merkava is thinly armored and uses the engine for protection behind thinner armor.

            Merkava — carries troops in addition to a crew of 4, and has a 120mm cannon.

            Abrams is a main battle tank that can kill any tank in the world.

            BB

                • Tom,

                  I have watched footage of the war in Isreal and seen IDF rolling around in trackless, doorless, stretched Humvee-looking things that have a hard top with a pretty serious looking gun on top. Is that gun a Merkava?

                  BTW,

                  I had a VERY mild infarction from a prolonged episode of atrial fibrillation. and spent 1 1/2 days in the hospital followed by being sofa-stricken for a few days. One of the worst things was having to write brief comments on the blog with my phone! Ugh. It has also made me exceptionally testy, which I’m told is sometimes a side effect of both the infarc and the drugs to alleviate it. I apologize for the tone I had in a few places, but it is frustrating to have people not read what you wrote, think you wrote something you didn’t, and then write a repsones . . . aw, forget it.

                  And the worst thing about AFIB is you can’t drink alcohol at all any more, ever, to any degree. Not one beer.:^( And I used to love my Chimet. (And Chimet Grand Reserve on my birthday.) My brother-in-law told me to switch to pot (Illinois, so it’s legal), but that’s off the table, too!

                  Bah!

                  Michael

                  • I’m glad you are better, and sorry about the AFIB. My boss had that about a year ago and underwent an ablation (sp?) procedure that cured him, but it came back this year (probably because he likes the vino). Well they zapped him again (reversion?), and he’s apparently good to go (for now).

                    Anyway, wine drinking may not be allowed, but is wine tasting not allowed?

            • BB
              The Merkava has been listed as a MBT since it came to light. And it’s a very well designed one I might add, capable of dealing with ANY other tank. The possibility of carrying four soldiers just shows that it was designed by people who had actually been in combat, not just engineers, accountants and multiple stars generals.

              • Bill,

                On September 19th of this year the BARAK MBT as announced it is actually the Merkava V.

                The US Army just recently announced the scrapping of planned upgrades to the Abrams MBT and a major effort to create new design/systems upgrades that will make the Abrams viable beyond 2040!

                shootski

  2. I find it interesting that you remarked about an accurate smooth bore air gun. I have one, and it was quite unintentional and surprising. A Gamo viper Express Shotgun with the brass pellet insert.

    When using diabolo pellets, the GVES is extremely accurate in my 10 M basement range. I have a BSA red dot sight on the piece, and if one puts the red or greed dot over the brass round sighting ball at barrel’s end so that it is perpendicular to it and the barrel axis, it will consistently put the POA and POI together downrange.

    I agree with your starting point about a good trigger and good sights. I have a couple of pieces in the locker that have unusual POWER but their triggers and sights are so horrific that they are fodder for a gun buy back program. Useless as air guns.

    After shooting all kinds of springers since ’89, I’ve come to the conclusion that the third integer is a smooth shooting cycle, and that’s particularly true for me as a springer aficionado. I don’t need Big Box Store velocities, I need a smooth and predictable shot cycle in combination with a good trigger and sight I can hit the 9 and 10 rings. In the end, that is the POINT of an air gun; to throw down range a projectile that will hit precisely where it is aimed.

    In the winter months, when cycles are hanging on the pegs, I’ll shoot about 5460 rounds per month in the basement range; ten shots per bull, 12 bulls per National Target sheet. I don’t need 1600 FPs; my Diana 430L underlever at 830 delivers spectacular consistency and the Hawk scope makes the target crystal clear.

    If I have a pest animal digging up the yard, it is in great peril, because a shot from the majority of my windows to within my property line is almost exactly 10 M! That was purely by chance, BUT I know with the majority of the air arms in the locker, that pest removal is more a matter of raising the window and screen silently than any defect of the air arm I choose – whether that might be the Hatsan 135 in .25, my venerable RWS/Diana Model 36, or the newer 430L underlever. I can size the piece to the offending critter; my earth spade, however, is of one size and fits all offenders…

    Big Box Stores Wonder Guns with uber velocity that also shake like a slip fault at the Madras Fault Line are useless. to me. The point is to have a piece that combines the essentials, as I see it: trigger, sights and smooth shot cycle. There are only three additional things necessary after those three pieces come together in an air arm; proper maintenance, quality pellets, and PRACTICE.

      • LFranke, ditto what RidgeRunner said.
        And I will add that this really impressed me…
        ” I’ll shoot about 5460 rounds per month in the basement range”
        …that’s awesome! 🙂

    • LF
      Just one more thing, although you mentioned it without highlight; every gun by default must be consistent in operation.
      Ross Seyfried once put it very well, it must go bang every time. And then the projectile, whatever it is, must hit the target. No orings failure, no springs broken, no valves stuck, no empty gas struts… That’s why I fully understand that retired LE officer’s comment as BB described in the blog.
      By the way as far as semi autos concerned, Ian made a solid case in their favor. Pity that BB could only propose the Sig Virtus.

  3. Unfortunately, the technology to get accurate smoothbores at airgun calibers isn’t there yet:(
    On the other hand, we know how to make acceptably accurate rifled barrels. Oh, and when you convince Velocity to bring back the Town and Country, have them use 1/2×20 threads. And extended enough we can mount an LDC if necessary!

            • OK everybody! RidgeRunner is rotten. I am surrounded by almost primal forest. The county in which I live is more than half national forest. I hear gunshots almost every day, including Sunday nights. The sound of an airgun is nothing. No one,including myself, pays any attention to such.

              Now, as for the matters of silencers. There are silencers available that you do not need to have threaded barrels for. I just yesterday sold to FawlteyManuel a Maximus equipped with such.

              As for those poor sods that live in built up areas, most of those places have laws against even shooting bb guns in the city.

              As for Michael and his 397 on STEROIDS, really?

              If you are in a situation where noise is a problem, what are you doing pumping that multipump up that much?

              My Texan LSS has a pretty good bark, even though it is silenced. You have to be realistic in your expectations. I do believe this is a good time for a class in silencers and how they function.

              • RR
                You are right in your thinking that there are people who like shooting but live in restricted environments. But since everything is a matter of choices there are people who like to shoot something more powerful than rubber band guns. So if there’s a way to, safely, shoot even your Condor in a basement without disturbing others, I wholeheartedly am in. We need everything that can support our hobby. Don’t you think?
                By the way I am envious of your place as you describe it.

                • Bill,

                  You can shoot the Texan LSS in your basement, however, stopping that bullet safely without causing much damage is another matter. That bullet has a LOT of energy.

              • RR,

                “As for Michael and his 397 on STEROIDS, really?”

                Yep, really. The price was just much too low, I mean really low, and it’s almost as accurate as a Sheridan. I never pump it more than 4 times, rarely more than 3. But steroiding makes even the few pumps more powerful. At 14 pumps it has a crack that is definitely in .22LR trerritory.

                Michael

      • RidgeRunner, put a Buck-Rail on my M4-177. In my basement, it makes a NOTICEABLE difference. As in I don’t hear the gun firing, I hear the hammer hitting the release valve instead!

          • Not a problem! I am just to lazy to go out in a field to shoot airguns. But even when pesting in our barns, it can get loud enough you want to quiet things down.
            Then there’s the poor folks in built-up areas who have to cut the noise or cannot shoot in their own backyard.

  4. Different airgun ammo? How about no barrel at all … Just use an internal skirted sabot in a tube that never leaves the ‘Long Gun’. It could use bleed air at the end of the cycle to return the sabot to cocked position once the pellet has left the gun. Might even act as a recoil compensator? Just a wandering thought.

    • Bob M

      So,,, basically a catapult gun,, but using air instead of rubber bands?? The launching base would need to enclose the pellet and also rotate to give spin to the pellet.

      Might get a bit complicated making a semi auto out of it, tho,, or even a magazine fed bolt action. The feed system would be interesting.

      It seems your wandering thought bumped into something in my random think box.

      Ed

    • In the end, the physics doesn’t work here. Energy would be expended to accelerate the projectile down the bore of what you call a shot tube thus consuming it. There would not be sufficient energy to re-cock the piece. Unless, of course, it IS possible to design a “perpetual motion machine.”

      • My late mother-in-law ate nothing (4’7″ and weighed 73 pounds), slept only a few hours a night, and never sat for more than six minutes at a time. She might actually have been a PMM.

    • Most PCP airguns can be had in one of three calibers. Some these days can have the barrel, magazine and pellet probes changed to different calibers. With AirForce, the barrels are designed to be readily changed and can be swapped out quickly and easily.

      • Michael
        BB just did a three-part history on Beeman. I believe they were bought out by Shanghai Industrial and may now be owned by Air Venturi? Look up ‘Beeman History’ here on the blog. Appears to be a complicated business situation, but they still have a website.

        • Guys,

          Dr. Beeman sold his company to the Marksman corporation in 1994. They then sold Beeman to Shanghai. Shanghai licensed the sales and distribution of the high-end Beeman rifles (the Weihrauchs) to Air Venturi to manage.

          Shanghai still owns the Beeman company, and Air Venturi manages (distributes) the Beeman R-series air rifles.

          BB

          • Big fish eat smaller fish, and big fish get eaten by the Chinese Huge Fish. ;^)

            I am glad I own a very early (I gather) San Anselmo address Beeman air rifle. It is a piece of history.

            Michael

  5. B.B.

    Is accuracy just a function of the barrel? Interchangeable barrels are nice, but isn’t accuracy more a function of spin stabilisation? If so, then rifling ratios become very important. I believe you once mentioned that as fast as pellets are moving forward, they are moving three times as fast going round and round…

    -Yogi

    • Yogi,

      Rifling is inside the barrel, so interchangeable barrels are still the principal focus for accuracy. Yes, rifling twist rates matter, as they relate to the projectile. This is something that is in its infancy in the airgun world. Brands like FX, and RAW are starting to experiment with twist rates.

      BB

  6. BB,

    As I responded to yesterday’s blurb, I am not cheap, just frugal. Most of my “collection” I did not pay much for in the relative sense. Many of my finer shooting airguns I paid under $300 each, some WAY under. I have a Beeman 800 / Diana 6G that is almost mint that I paid only $60 for. I had to have it resealed and that cost a pretty penny, but still below what would be considered fair market price.

    As I am sure you are aware, there are many really nice shooting airguns out there that are new or used. You do not have to pay a small fortune for something that can poke a tree rat’s eye out at 50 yards. Personally, I like the old gals. Besides being very well made from quality materials, many are quite accurate. Some of them have fantastic sights. Many have single stage triggers that are to die for.

    Something else about my “collection” that is a bit more subtle is how they operate to accomplish what they do. My 1906 BSA is an underlever. My Webley is a bolt action break barrel. My FLZ is a break barrel with a lock release underneath. I wish I could afford a Westley Richards. That is one cool air pistol.

    What I am saying is, there are some really nice airguns out there that can be had for a decent price. You just have to look. I will be at the 9th Annual North Carolina Airgun Show this coming Saturday. I hope to find some nice deals like I did last year. And crickets say “cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap”. 😉

    • RidgeRunner,

      regardless of the words “cheap”, “frugal”, prudent, tight, etc… I think it’s clear that low purchase price is way up on your priority list. Paying less for an item than it’s worth, seems to give great pleasure. A quality I would expect in an airgun trader.

      While others enjoy a bargain hunt, I enjoy playing with my latest, for which I typically can’t remember what I paid.

      We’re all different, that’s all. 🙂

      ———
      It hasn’t happened often, but I have haggled in the past, to get the seller to accept a fairer, higher price. 🙂

      • 3hi,

        Yes, I do like to haggle. Over the years I have learned that most things are really over priced. When you purchase a used airgun, you are very lucky to know its true history and care.

        When I decide to purchase something, whatever it may be, I set a price in my mind to what it is worth to me. If I can “haggle” the owner to that price, I will buy it. I have ended up walking away from many bargainings and auctions emptyhanded.

        I do not own a Westley Richards or Lincoln Jeffries air pistol for that reason. I wish I did, but the prices were higher than I was willing to pay.

          • Michael,

            As an Appalachian-American, my pay scale is considerably lower than a goodly portion of this wonderful country. Frugality is a necessity.

            When I bought my HM1000X, it was at a great price. However it required that I buy a compressor and a CF tank. It was a long time before I stopped hearing about that. It was also a good bit of time before I bought another airgun.

            I do like the hunt for the bargain. I do like to dicker. With large ticket items there must be some dicker or there is no deal with me. Perhaps I have a bit of the Eastern Med in me. 😉

  7. Today’s article seems to discuss the airgun definition of “good”. I suspect that most, if not all, will agree with the qualities, but, nevertheless prioritise them differently.

    Thinking about it, I realise that I have come to value ‘good fit’ above ‘good looks’, but only just. The best analogy to explain what I mean, is: shoes. 🙂

    edit: re-posted to attach a picture, showing an example of, what I think is a nice looking Diana50E, beside a lesser looker, but perfectly fitting, for me, HW50S. Can you guess which is more fun for my plinking? 🙂

  8. The sights on that Town and Country are too cool! Why can’t Crosman bring them back? Like you said they wouldn’t be expensive to manufacture. BB, you have the ear of the bigwigs at Crosman, make it happen!

  9. Quoted from Wednesday, October 11th…

    *** No matter. Just don’t mention the past! I did but I think I got away with it. ***

    Tom,

    My comment the other day was a simple request/suggestion for more content for products that are currently available.

    Sorry if you misunderstood it. If you felt offended you could have contacted me directly rather than venting publicly, you do have my email.

    There’s nothing wrong with “the past”, at 72 years old, 60 years with airguns, I have a lot of “past” myself – some of the relevant stuff I’ve tried to share with this community.

    *** Well — let’s see. Have I insulted or angered everyone yet? ***

    I’m not insulted or angry, just disappointed.

    Don’t think that sarcasm and prejudice have a place in any blog.

    There’s one other thing that I want to address…

    I feel that you have been unfair with your comments about FX products. Four years ago you were disappointed with the performance of the FX Dreamlite and based on this one airgun you have been prejudiced against the company. In reviewing the series I noted that there were a number of issues with the tests and from my own experience (5 years with 4 different FX airguns) some of the results were not typical for a properly assembled and tuned airgun. Still, there were sub-quarter inch groups were shot at 25 yards.

    Regardless whether that particular airgun or the setup or whatever was the problem, four years have passed and considering performance in the field, FX must be doing something right and deserves another (fair) look.

    From what I’ve seen, FX Sweden is a company run by airgun enthusiasts – not bean-counters or lawyers that have never shot an airgun. They have done a great deal to promote airgunning through their innovation, support for their customers and 3rd party vendors.

    FX products are high performers that are well made. They are supported with detailed documentation, service videos and can be customized to a variety of roles because of their wide range of adjustment and the ability to change parts (barrels, calibers, stocks, reservoirs).

    There’s a number of 3rd party vendors (FX Hybrid Slugs; SideShot magazines; Pocket Radar chronographs, Element Optics scopes; DonnyFL moderators) that are directly supported by FX and others (HuMa; SaberTactical; Kraford and Lypt) that benefit from making FX Airguns Parts and Accessories. Think that makes FX good for the airgun community.

    Don’t know why you are so prejudiced against FX, they are investing in the technology and supporting airgunners more than most other companies. I feel that someone who is in a position to influence so many people should objective in their reviews.

    In future I can be reached through the Airgun Nation forum, same handle “Vana2”. Just PM me and I’ll get back to you.

    Take care, shoot straight!
    Hank

    • Hank

      “In future I can be reached through the Airgun Nation forum, same handle “Vana2”.

      Hoping this doesn’t mean you are moving away from this blog. You are one of the enablers!

      Deck

      • Deck,

        No, not leaving but I’ll be doing more lurking than posting.

        I’m still enjoying my low power airguns but my interest is more strongly focused on my high end, high power airguns, slugs and long range shooting. (my Panthera is a BEAST!)

        I’ll be spending more time on the Airgun Nation forum as there are a lot of people there that are heavily into slugs, tuning and Bench Rest (BR) shooting. Lots to learn and right now that’s the best place to be for that kind of stuff.

        Hank

    • Hank,

      I’ve owned a number of FX guns. The ranchero carbine and the cyclone were among my favorites. I won’t buy another FX gun because of the recent debacle with FX USA. So many customers are now caught in a legal entanglement that makes it uncertain IF they will get their guns back and if they do get their guns back it’s uncertain if anyone will step in to do warranty work that was promised by FX.

      • Kevin,

        The company FX has clearly stated on their web page that Utah Airguns is their distributor in the USA.
        They, Utah Airguns, are are a reputable outfit that is owned and operated by folks that shoot airguns. They support numerous shooting events of various types.
        The legal problems of FX USA are unfortunate for all concerned.

        For Everyone:
        Be very careful on what you post online since this is an ongoing legal case in the courts; you don’t want to find yourself summoned or sued!

        shootski

      • Kevin,

        The legal issues resulting in closing FX USA are centered around one person allegedly defrauding company funds. While FX Sweden could be blamed for trusting this person and not monitoring the situation more closely it does not reflect on the companies products – they are the same quality and same performance as they always have been.

        As shootski said, UTAH Airguns will cover the FX distributorship and warrantee stuff, I see no need to avoid doing business with FX. This legal stuff is an inconvenience, FX is unlikely to abandon the US market because if it.

        Unfortunate that peoples airguns are caught up in the mess but I’m confident that it will be sorted out. I’m more concerned about the FX USA employees, they have a reputation for doing good work and now they are out of a job.

        Cheers!

    • Hank,
      I hope you aren’t leaving. I don’t post much, but I try to read every day and I’ve enjoyed your guest blogs.

      I read yesterdays blog as well, and I would like to respectfully submit that what sounded like rant may have been intended as humor. At least, that is the way I took it, and I found it humorous.

      Just my $0.02.
      CB

      • Captain Bravo,

        My remarks in both reports were most definitely meant to be humorous — but with a point. The point is — knowing what has been done in the past opens us up to what is possible today. I think the sights shown above illustrate that.

        I won’t stop writing the way that I do but I will be more careful about my personal remarks.

        And I did personally apologize to Hank.

        BB

      • CB,

        Glad you enjoy my guest blogs. No, I’m not leaving.

        BB and I are talking off-line, it’s not about the remarks, it’s about other stuff that was concerning me.

        Hank

        • Glad to hear that communications are continuing and that you are not leaving us. You are one of the folks here that I, as a newbie myself, have come to regard as a part of the fabric of this little community.

          Now a burning question: are FX pellets the same as Air Arms, JSBs, or are they also made on their own dies and therefore slightly different from the other two?

    • Hank, you just described what a lot of DarkSiders complain about when I lurk around their conversations. I paid $1,500 for an FX air rifle and have to spend at least 1/3 of that again to get the accuracy people talk about. People might accept that from a <$500 gun, but not one that costs as much as an FX.

      • OhioPlinker,

        I’ve seen the same comments and wonder about them.

        I have 4 FX airguns, all factory stock. The three new ones I bought shot very well straight out of the box. The forth (a .22/500mm Crown MK2), was screwed up by the original owner but after proper tuning to JSB Hades pellets routinely shoots 1/8 to 1/4 inch groups at 40 yards.

        As a casual shooter, I see accessories as an OPTIONAL way of customizing an airgun. A serious competitor might benefit from some of the accessories but IMHO, the average shooter would be better off in investing in pellets and practice to improve their skill.

        The flip side, an airgun needs to fit properly for you to shoot consistently, sometimes an accessory will help. I often modify the grip to suit my large hands.

        Cheers!

  10. As a newbie who needs to learn, I have wondered about a few things. One concerns the gas piston technology. It appears to me that the designs of practically every one of the gas piston guns are focused on being more powerful. How about focusing on smoother cycling and accuracy? Aren’t these reasonable goals?

    • Elmer Fudd,

      my Weihrauch HW90’s gas piston pressure is easily modified. I have been surprised by the considerable difference that makes to how it shoots. 🙂

      I can’t tell you about accuracy because, well, I’m not accurate with anything. 🙂

      • hihihi, have not had the opportunity yet to zero the Casa FM HW90 or make powerplant adjustments – five test .25 pellets fired, that’s all. Hard-cocking but FM knew that. He likes the exercise.

        Did you use a Weihrauch gauge/pump combination to adjust the gas cylinder?

        • FawltyManuel,

          yes, I have a pressure gauge, Hill pump and quick connect adapter on the fill thing for my HW90.

          To be honest, I consider the pressure gauge not necessary. I imagine it’ll come in handy if I quickly want to revisit a particular shooting behaviour that I previously recorded.
          Cocking effort is my primary gauge, followed by shot cycle.

          You must (!) try shooting yours at low pressure, at least once. I promise and guarantee that it will make you smile!

          Like you, I have been too busy to play much with my HW90. Living the retired life is surprisingly time consuming. 🙂

            • FawltyManuel,

              great! I wish and hope you’ll let us/ me know in your comment to the day’s blog what your experience was. Please. 🙂

              Oh, and the good news is: letting pressure out of the gas piston requires no special accessories, only the increase of pressure, ie a shrader type pump (as you probably already know anyway). 🙂

      • Thanks, that sounds vewy interesting. One could adjust it for shooting targets in the basement, and change it if more power was desired for long range shooting, etc. Definitely something to put on the old wish list.

        • Roamin Greco,

          thanks. I enjoyed the feeling of success, however, I think these shooting galleries are not meant to be difficult, but fun.

          And expensive, like everything else at the Oktoberfest. 🙂

    • Elmer,

      What you said is the reason the Sig ASP20 was such a hit. It was powerful, but still cocked very lightly — for the power. Thirty-five pounds of effort for over 20 foot-pounds in .177 and .23 in .22 is fantastic. And then they took their ball and left the field.

      What’s an airgunner going to do?

      BB

  11. I have several springers and enjoy shooting them for target practice. I would really like to move up to a PCP, but don’t want to have to end up purchasing all of the ancillary items like a air tank or a compressor. At 79 years old, I am not even going to think about getting a manual pump. I thought about getting a CO2 airgun like the Diana Chaser, but the power is too low for anything but close up target shooting. Is it possible to increase the pressure in commercial CO2 cartridges? Is it possible to use another gas that increases pressure which would increase velocity? All of my questions are probably related to costs and physics.

    • Bob,

      No, it is not possible to increase the pressure of CO2 gas. If you try, it simply becomes a liquid.

      I have a report coming very soon that may help you with your situation. I will write it for guys just like you who want to do more, but are daunted by the cost.

      BB

    • B-I-L,

      IF you are willing to take a lower than advertised shot count a PCP with a well balanced valve or regulated PCP can be easily HAND pumped and get quite a few shots at the RATED POWER.
      IF you watch or read Tom’s and others how to pump tutorials you will easily be able to pump to 2,500PSI using JUST your body weight!

      shootski

    • Hi B-I-L,
      Power? How about an Airforce Talon/Escape/Condor with CO2 Adaptor and a paintball tank? With 24″ barrels I’m seeing 11ft# in .177, 17 ft# in .22 and 20 ft# in .25, and that is with the lightweight pellets and without monkeying around with it (yet). The accuracy is better than my Chaser. Tank refils are from the paintball store or by grinding and pouring the rated tank weight of supermarket dry ice into the tank (eg, 12oz tank, 20oz tank). Startup cost might be only $600-700 if you buy the gun on Airforce’s sale page.

      BB will know better but I think the physics with those Airforce guns might include Mass Gas Flow as well as pressure.

      Cheers,
      Mike

  12. more velocity out of CO2 rifles is possible, just depends on model being modified. An old QB-78 custom .25 can get up to 700 fps with the “normal” weight pellets….

  13. There is a guy that makes adapters that fit Diana Chasers and several other guns that allows tethering an external paintball type of tank to those guns. I don’t know much about such a set up; but it appears to me that the paintball type tanks have regulators on them that are normally set at about 800-lbs (if I remember correctly). The adapters aren’t cheap, I would probably prefer to just go with an entry model PCP. But I would like to learn more about the paintball tank set ups (if anyone has any experience with them).

    • Elmer Fudd,

      In my early days with the Dark Side and PCPs the pump, bottle, and SCUBA 3,000 or so PSI) tank were all that most of us had. Dive compressors were out of most all of our budgets or Chancellor of the Exchequers stated permission on limits!
      You don’t need a regulated bottle. You do need an on-off valve, a Microbore fill hose with the correct end fittings (normally female QD) a gauge on the bottle and/or on the airgun so you don’t overfill.
      Be certain the small aluminum “paintball” bottles are rated for 3,000PSI and are not the 1,800PSI CO2 cylinders that “look” exactly the same.
      Many paintball shops have knowledgeable folks that can get you set up for filling your airgun.
      Just go when they are not busy to talk to them.

      shootski

      • Thanks Shootski, I was wondering if some of the same equipment (tank, compressor, etc) could be used for both PCP and, with the adaptor and regulator, for tethering to the Diana Chaser. I know normal PCP pressures are way too high for a CO2 gun. But, if it had a regulator that could be adjusted to a safe pressure for a CO2 gun, might that tank do double duty? Has anyone tried this type of thing?

        • Elmer Fudd,

          I have no direct experience with the valve on the Diana Chaser.
          On other Dual Fuel valves you can do it. You probably want a maximum of 800PSI on the output side of the regulator. Just remember that the constituent Air molecules are almost all much smaller than the CO2 molecules so it will likely BARK louder than on CO2.

          Once more a Paintball Shop will probably be your best source for the fill apparatus along with some direct instruction on how to use it safely.

          shootski

            • Elmer Fudd,

              I kept thinking about this while i waited for my Tetanus and Flu Shot today. Just now it hit me: https://www.pyramydair.com/product/diana-bandit-pcp-air-pistol?m=4637

              What you want already exists!
              Just realize that made with/in the PRC often means poor seal material quality, poor installation technique, and poor quality control especially on O-Rings.

              IF you want to do PCPs you need to understand the differences in O-Rings for different purposes.
              Very High Pressure Air need not leak IF the seals use are the correct ones and a modicum of preventative maintenance is performed.

              Just SEARCH: All About O-Rings and start leaning.

              Also: https://www.fournierrubber.com/blog/o-ring-material-selection-guide/

              shootski

                • Bill,

                  O-Rings in your airguns are going to FAIL.
                  They are far more complex of a device than most of us realize.
                  Don’t use the ones typically found in your local hardware store because those are for plumbing and designed to hold back not much more than 60-120PSI. We are interested in holding back 800 to as much as 5,000PSI.
                  The extrusion potential alone at those VERY HIGH to EXTREME pressures are significant.
                  Add in a little heat and solvents and the failure is imminent.
                  Read as much as you can find on sealing against EXTREME PRESSURE and ignore anything that doesn’t talk PSI/Kpa in our operating range. Good place to start: https://www.o-rings.org/
                  The airgun manufacturers are typically not doing us a favor by ignoring good sealing system design and O-Ring material choices.
                  Only last past the warranty date by a little is the cheaper choice. Replace with a better choice and even upgrading the sealing system can be done as simply as using one or two specific types of Backup O-Rings in the same groove to support the main sealing O-Ring.
                  Don’t be fooled into thinking two O-Rings in two different grooves are a better design.

                  I’m about to reseal my leaking 2008 Benjamin Discovery (BP1kK77) that has a very slow leak as a result of my neglecting to shoot it for at least a decade. Without the drop of Chamber Oil on refills the likely cheap Buna O-Ring in the gauge Port Assembly allowed the air charge to leak down to 1,800PSI in that decade. It probably is dried out and inflexible and no longer properly fills the groove at higher pressures i will look into how and with wha to upgrade the O-Ring even if the leake is actually an internally failed gauge.

                  On the harder (durometer over 80) installation is aided by warming them before installation. Good O-Ring specific lubricant and installation techniques is a big part of avoiding the Infant Failure part of the Failure Curve.

                  Just skimmed the topic surface.

                  hth,

                  shootski

                  • On o-rings failing just after warranty, I can attest to that. I bought a brand new AR 2078 (based on a QB78) and it shot fine for about a month or two. Then the seals started to degrade, the seal on the piercing cap,, turning a spongy, mushy, white. I’m going to reseal it for practice before I reseal a Crosman 160.

                    I’m supposed to get a used Discovery today (the Dark Side is calling). And it will likely need to be resealed as well. I will know after the hand pump arrives.

                    Ian (45 Bravo) says with CO² at least, urethane seals are the way to go, and that’s what I use in all the Mark I and IIs I have sealed. There is a small cottage industry of folks who buy O-rings in bulk and then sell them in kits for various airguns on eBay or Amazon, etc.

                    However, there has to be a simpler rule of thumb than to have folks have to get a PhD in materials science. Can’t we distill it down to something like: for PCPs use XYZ seals on internal seals and for moving parts like bolts or fill probes use ABC material because it stands up to abrasion better? If one set of seals is $5 and the better ones are $10 will anyone quibble about getting the better seals? In the case of CO², one guy sells a seal kit for the Mark I for $8. The seals are black but the material is not advertised. Perhaps they are Buna? Who can say. The same guy sells a set of translucent white “urethane” seals for $11. I buy the urethane ones. If someone said “viton” is the best, and the kit costs $20, I’d gladly pay the extra $9. What I don’t want to do is to spend 29 hours trying to figure out what material and what size to get, and then have to get 500 of each or a kit with a bunch that I don’t need.

                    Correction: as I was typing UPS arrived. The Discovery is here!

        • Yes. Back in the days of the old Yellow Forum I actually used to go by the name elmer fudd, and I built a modified QB that I ran on HPA. I tore apart the regulator on a paintball bottle that I had and I remember shimming it up with a penny. I seem to recall that I got the pressure up into the neighborhood of 1200 psi, but that was 20 years ago and my memory is a bit vague. I think I remember running it at 1500 psi as well. I still have the gun tucked away in storage.

          It’s an interesting critter, very unconventional build, and I can probably dig it out this weekend.

          • SawneyBean,

            I remember you as THAT elmer fudd!
            Good to hear that you are alive and kicking.

            Most of my CO2 to Hpa conversions were run in the 1,200 to 1,700PSI never using the stock Crosman or other manufacturers typical tubes as a pressure vessel.

            still just shootski

            • Thanks for the good words..

              On that particular gun I cut the tube off flush with the end of the valve assembly and fed the hose from the bottle directly into it. I made a custom stock for it with a ridiculously high roll over cheekpiece and mounted the bottle in a cutaway on the bottom. I’ll try and get pictures of it tomorrow.

              • SawneyBean,

                The innovation by the folks who haunted the Yellow, Green, and other forums back then moved airguns toward where we find ourselves today and where we will be in the near future.
                Hope to see the pictures of your creation.

                shootski

  14. Tom,

    My question need not be precisely addressed. In other words, breaking it down into an implied is making a good inexpensive air gun hard, along with the actual is making a good (regardless of cost) hard, are both worthy discussions for this topic. And clearly you intend to address good as being accurate (here) and other attributes (in future installments).

    I presume making an affordable air gun is more difficult than is making a good one regardless of production costs. That decreases the profit margin for the maker. That is one of the challenges for making a good movie, as ticket prices, etc. are fixed. Spending $300 million, vs. $100 million, to make a movie will mean more individual sales must be generated to pay for the project. Definitive industry and academic research proves people will pay more to see a better movie than they will to see a bad movie.

    But spending more on making a movie is not by any means a guarantee a movie will be good, or even better than a lower cost production. “Heaven’s Gate” cost $44 million to make in 1980, but its entire receipts, tickets, TV replaying, rentals, purchases, etc., amounted to merely $3.5 million. More to my point, it was a bad movie artistically. Iy wasn’t fun to watch for its poor quality, a la an Ed Wood film. “El Mariachi” cost $7225.00 to make in 1992, but made $2 million. It is regarded as an excellent movie.

    Have there been expensive (to make, to purchase) air rifles that were not good? Have there been inexpensive (to make, to purchase) air rifles that were good?

    Heavens Gate was directed and written by an Oscar winner, Michael Cimino, and it starred a veritable Who’s Who of exceptionally gifted and exceptionally famous (in 1980) actors: Kris Kristofferson, Christopher Walken, John Hurt, Sam Waterston, Brad Dourif, Isabelle Huppert, Jeff Bridges, and Joseph Cotton. Heaven’s Gate was distributed by one of the very best and biggest studios, United Artists. “Heaven’s Gate ended up bankrupting the company by most accounts.)

    If a manufacturer decides to make an excellent air gun and put the money and talent into doing so, might they fail regardless? Has EVERY Air Arms product been good? Has EVERY Xisico product been poor?

    Just some food for thought.

    Michael

    • Michael,

      “Have there been expensive (to make, to purchase) air rifles that were not good? Have there been inexpensive (to make, to purchase) air rifles that were good?”

      You just won’t stop, will you? Turn the question around and ask about higher-end guitars.

      BB

      • Tom,

        You are spot-on! Air guns, guitars, cars, you name it. I bought a pair of very expensive, sturdily built, heavy duty, high-end brand, circumaural (over/around ear) headphones about five years ago. They lasted about 18 months. Many years ago I bought a pair of flimsy Walkman-type headphones at American Science and Surplus for 79 cents. They lasted more than 15 years of everyday use. The pricey ones sounded great and the cheapie ones sounded mediocre, but sound, like accuracy, is not the only criterion of good/not good.

        Regarding the inexpensive – expensive continuum, I do not consider it relevant to good/not good. VALUE is indeed a function of good/not good, however. A $150 Gamo, a $300 Diana, a $500 Weihrauch, and a $700 Air Arms walk into a . . . er, no. Are each capable of being a good value. Value is a criterion of good. Accuracy, durability, ergonomics, all are important. Price is irrelevant.

        Michael

  15. Guys just a general comment – smooth bore will have something like an inch group at 30 yards and will not be better with no pellet. Approx. 40 yards is the end of it. The diabolo shaped pellets are actually made for smooth bore and optimized to have the accuracy through the aerodynamics. We know the pain with the skirt (hahahha) and how it brakes all the time 😉
    If you try to shot slugs with no twistrate there will be rather a poor effect…
    About the twistrate – I know BB did a very deep dive study about it. I read all reports at once. I know some experienced airgun tuners and they told me for subsonic pellet you don’t need that much of a twistrate to be accurate. Now we have slugs and it might be a bit different. Anyway there is a big jump from subsonic to supersonic – fortunately actually no issue in the airgun world, we stay sub 🙂

    CO2 is a very good solution but only if you are not in a cold condition. Shoting CO2 gun fast will make it cold anyway and it does not fit to cold ambient at all. High velocity is also a relative thing using CO2 powerplant. Just don’t be too enthusiastic about it.

  16. B.B. an Readership,

    I wish Gunfun1 was still actively posting. The SemiAutomatic Marauder was one of his favorites and just recently the new Record Breaker on Extreme Silhouette Speed Shooting! Something like 18 seconds to CLEAN twenty of those little metal critters!

    Crosman Team shooters also shot bolt action Marauder (Ed Shultz) and i believe the Marauder designer shooting his Armada that DNFed due to an unfortunate magazine jamb.

    Tom you may want to revisit the SAM to see what is happening especially the Large Capacity magazines now available from a separate company!

    shootski

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