Building the $100 precharged pneumatic air rifle: Part 6

by Tom Gaylord, a.k.a. B.B. Pelletier

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

$100 PCP
The PCP is built on a Crosman 2100B chassis.

This report addresses:

• Mounting a scope on the rifle
• Shooting Air Arms Falcon pellets at 25 yards
• Grouping in smaller pressure bands
• Shooting Crosman Premier lites
• Marketing the $100 PCP

This will probably be the final report on the $100 PCP. It’s been an interesting project, and today I’m capping it off with a test at 25 yards with the rifle scoped. I selected a UTG 3-9X40 scope with illuminated reticle and a one-inch tube. This is a wonderful scope for just under $100. It’s smaller size suits the test rifle perfectly.

UTG 3-9X40 scope
The $100 PCP looks good with the UTG 3-9X40 scope.

Falcon pellets
In the previous report, I shot at 25 yards with open sights, and the best group of 10 I got measured 1.144 inches between centers with RWS Hobby pellets. For some reason, I overlooked Hobbys in today’s test and began with Falcons, which gave a previous group of 1.912 inches.

It took just 2 shots to get on target, and the next 8 went into 0.992 inches. I was filling to 2000 psi and shooting 10 shots between each fill.

8 Falcons 25 yards
The first 8 Falcon pellets went into 0.992 inches at 25 yards.

Next, I refilled the rifle and shot 10 more Falcons. This time, the group was 1.72 inches between centers. That’s better than the group with open sights, but nothing special.

10 Falcons 25 yards group 1
The first 10-shot group with a 2000 psi fill made this 1.72-inch group.

As I shot this group, I thought the last 5 shots went closer than the first 5, so I decided to fill the rifle to 1500 psi and shoot 5 more shots — then repeat, for a 10-shot group. These 10 shots went into 1.373 inches, which is a significant improvement.

10 Falcons 25 yards group 2
On this group, I filled the rifle twice to 1500 psi and shot 5 shots per fill. The group measures 1.373 inches, so it’s a little better than the last one.

But I thought this time that the shots were scattering more than before. So I decided to boost the fill pressure to 1800 psi and shoot just 5, then refill and do it again. This gave me 10 shots in 1.577 inches, which is not an improvement.

10 Falcons 25 yards group 3
This time, I twice filled the gun to 1800 psi and shot 5 rounds with each fill. The group measures 1.577 inches between centers.

Last try
At this point, I remembered that this is just a proof-of-concept gun. We aren’t trying to make the final article here — just prove that it works good enough to be worth the effort. I hadn’t yet tried Crosman Premier lites in the scoped rifle, so that was my final group. This time, I filled to 2000 psi.

Ten Premier lites went into 1.607 inches; but the strange thing was that the first 5 went into 0.629 inches, and the second 5 went into 1.098 inches. And the 2 groups are centered in 2 separate places! Clearly, there are tuning issues that have to be addressed with this rifle. But I don’t care about that. As far as I’m concerned, the $100 PCP concept has been proven.

10 Premier lites 25 yards group
The bottom 5 pellet holes are the first 5 shots fired with Premier lites. Though the group measures 1.607 inches in all, the bottom 5 measure 0.629 inches between centers!

The groups I got aren’t as small as the ones you’re used to seeing from a PCP at 25 yards, but this one will sell for under $100. So, the accuracy is not expected to be world class. And this rifle’s barrel is held in place by Gorilla Tape and a shim of cardboard. Certainly, there’s more to be done to finish the rifle!

The last comment I’ll make is that this rifle is noisy. A barrel shroud would be welcome.

Marketing the $100 PCP
From the responses we’ve gotten and the things I’ve heard while attending airgun events, I know the $100 PCP is worth trying. I realize there’s a marketing plan to be constructed, so I’d like to start the ball rolling with this:

• Keep the velocity with Premier lites to no more than 800 f.p.s.
• Make the reservoir larger and balance the valve to get 20 good shots (730-800 f.p.s.).
• In every way possible, retain the features of the 2100B.
• If the fill pressure can be made even lower, say 1800 psi, that’s better.
• Consider shrouding the barrel.
• Come out with a hand pump that will retail for under $100, but use a Foster fitting on the rifle so any of the current pumps can also be used.

90 Responses to “Building the $100 precharged pneumatic air rifle: Part 6”

  • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

    Even despite the lackluster accuracy, the basic premise is certainly there. I’m not sure one sees much cardboard and gorilla tape holding the guns on an olympic firing line together either, so its to be expected. Anything to get the price of PCPs down will only serve to encourage more people to try them out, myself included. I only own springers and pump guns, but I really think I should try out a PCP. My only problem is that if I got one, it would have to be capable of something my other guns aren’t so good at. And by that I mean, I want a rig set up for surgical field target precision. Still at any rate, these projects BB has had a hand in such as the Discovery, Bronco, Air Force guns etc. are only enriching the sport of airgunning, and for that we thank you wholeheartedly.

  • Gunfun1 Says:

    BB
    I like how your doing the little outline at the beginning now of the days blog.

    And already to Part 6. Boy there sure has been alot of things talked about with this topic.

    But one thing that sticks out is what you said of the guns origin. Basically retain the 2100B’s features. So that means Crosman would or could take on the project possibly when all is said and done. So that’s good.

    But why I bring that up is they tend to throw in their Center Point scopes on some of their guns. Maybe if they add a little fixed power scope if one is available. Like maybe a 4 x 32 fixed parallax model. That would make the gun more appealing if they still kept the cost at a hundred dollars or so.

    I still believe either way the gun will sell. And the accuracy that your getting is fair for that type of gun. But what I have experienced with PCP guns is they tend to be pretty accurate guns because of their natural characteristics. I believe when that barrel get secured as normal the accuracy will improve.

    But the only thing that bothers me is the other guns that will be available setting right next to the hundred dollar PCP at the stores or online or in the catalogs. The other guns will be ready to shoot as is at that cost. But the PCP wont be a complete package. Don’t get me wrong in my case since I already have the PCP equipment the hundred dollar PCP is a heck of a deal. But if I was just getting started and saw what was in front of me to buy. It would probably not be the $100 PCP. I would be wanting to get it at the store and go home and shoot it as soon as I opened the box.

    So something definitely has to be addressed about a way to fill the gun cheaply. And I would have to have access to that fill device immediately. Maybe the gun could run on C02 like the Discovery and we could use a paint ball bottle and adapter that could transfer fill the $100 PCP. Or a person could later buy a hand pump or other equipment as the person evolved more with those type of guns.

    All I know is I will buy one when it comes out just for the purpose of having something in my hand that us air gunners had the opportunity to give our input about. Then see it be produced. And maybe bring it to a airgun show and have BB and Dennis autograph it. That would be a cool gun to hand down to the grand kids.

    Well it sounds like it may be getting closer to a done deal to me. Time Will Tell. :)

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      I need to add this to my post.

      If there was a adapter included with the $100 PCP to transfer fill the gun from a paint ball container I think that would be a sufficient fill device for a starter gun.

      • B.B. Pelletier Says:

        GF1,

        So you are saying the $100 PCP needs to be filled with CO2? Because that’s what paintball tanks use.

        B.B.

        • Gunfun1 Says:

          BB
          I never have messed with paint ball guns. But that’s what I thought they could use.

          So I searched it. Here’s something I found and it has info about different types of ways to power them.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paintball_marker

        • airgunsbb Says:

          BB,

          Great article, great concept. Hope it comes to market. But like you say, the big cost of pcp is not the gun, you can buy a real good accurate pcp for less than $300. It is the fill side that gets pricy!

          Most people, me included, tried pumps and it is simply too long and tiring a process. Enter the need for a another easier fill process. So I made same mistake others will make I am sure. Bought a 3000 psi brand new scuba tank at around $200! After all, the Disco only takes 2000 psi, right! RIGHT! And a Ford Escort is as good as a Mercedes right?

          So then I buy a fine Korean pcp that cost me like $400 used, and it needs 3000 psi to function correctly! Ooops! So sell the aluminum scuba tank for $100, buy a 44 cu ft used 4500 psi tank for $275 and then about another $100 for the connecting hardware. (Note I already had spent that $100 when I got the scuba tank.) Now I can fill both guns and shoot them! BUT…I get not near as many fills as I would like from the small tank!

          Well it was not a big concern as I had a fill place a mile down the road from me. Alas, two years later they moved to 20 miles away, and were the closest fill station still, so now size of tank gets to be a big concern.

          A lot of praying and about 6 months time later I get my prayers answered when a gentleman advertises he wants to trade his “monster” 88 cu ft 4500 psi tank for a “smaller more portable 44 cu ft tank” even up. Trade made, both are happy, though it cost me about $35 to ship him my tank. Cost him more to ship me the big tank!

          Morale of the story? DO NOT buy the new fangled $100 pcp and the new fangled $100 pump and think you are going to get by cheap! You WILL love the new pcp, want “something a little better”, hate pumping for 15 minutes, and end up buying a much more expensive pcp and a 4500 psi tank!

          SO….save up your pennies, buy the BEST used 4500 psi tank you can afford FIRST, but only if there is a near by fill station. THEN buy the $100 pcp and enjoy shooting it. THEN, when you decide you are in love with pcp, you can buy any rifle you can afford with out losing money on a 3000 psi tank which will NOT work with higher powered rifles! And have saved your self a ton of money in the process and get to actually shoot your pcp rather than spending a ton of time pumping! And if you decide pcp is not for you? (Highly unlikely!) Then you should be able to recover a lot of your investment. Especially if you bought a good used 4500 psi tank!

          If no near by fill station? Then the cost goes up dramatically. Either get a huge >88 cu ft 4500 psi tank (VERY pricy), or get a smaller 44 cu ft 4500 psi and a shoebox compressor so you can fill your own. (VERY VERY pricy)

          I still make way more trips to my 20 mile fill station than I would like, even with an 88 cu ft tank! Probably once every month or two!

          But at $400 to over $1000 for a shoebox, and the need for a shop compressor to feed it, won’t be any time soon I will be getting a shoebox unless I win the lottery! Not on my disability SS income!

          • Gunfun1 Says:

            airgunsbb
            You definitely gave a good scenario about PCP guns. And from the things you describe that should help somebody decide what kind of equipment to purchase.

            And I kind of went through less steps then what you did though. I researched and actually talked to some of the people that own the company’s that sell the air tanks for PCP use. And I talked to them that make the ShoeBox. And I asked how many times I could fill a Marauder with a 4500psi 88 cubic inch tank (the smaller buddy type tanks) and multiple places told me the same result. About 8 times. And that is what I get. Well and that will give me approximately 280 shots or so. So that will give a nice days worth of shooting. Oh and they sell a base model of the ShoeBox and it sells for around 600 and something dollars. (I posted a link to that model a little farther down if you want to check it out)

            But on the other hand I still believe there has to be a base model PCP gun available and also a base model PCP pump. It has kind of worked out backwards if you look at some of the American PCP guns and equipment. A lot of the stuff went right into being high end stuff. The Discovery and Hand pump was about the only thing available on the lower end. And its not really lower end.

            So I still believe there is a need for a lower cost PCP gun and a lower cost PCP hand pump. And maybe some of the big company’s here in the US should get together and develop some type of exchange program that would allow you to tank a tank and drop it off for exchange of a full tank. Kind of like how they do propane exchange tanks for BBQ grills. That’s what I would like to see happen.

            • Gunfun1 Says:

              I did a mis spell.

              “And maybe some of the big company’s here in the US should get together and develop some type of exchange program that would allow you to tank a tank and drop it off for exchange of a full tank.”

              Should be. that would allow you to (take) a tank and drop it off for exchange of a full tank.

    • RidgeRunner Says:

      Read the marketeering plan. Cheap pump for cheap gun. Wally World sells several sproingers that are in that price range and if this was assembled properly instead of taped together, this would likely out shoot and out sell them.

      As far as CO2 goes, that would probably doom it. To run on either air or CO2 would require a tunable valve which would increase the cost, which would increase the price. Also, access to bulk CO2 can be an issue and an expense. I have owned one CO2 pistol and due to the expense and temperature limitations, you are going to have to really impress me to convince me to buy another one.

      My bad, while typing this I remembered I have a paintball gun out in the shed I picked up a couple of years ago at a yard sale real cheap. I have as of yet to disassemble and rebuild it or try to find some gas for it or buy balls for it, etc.

      • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

        You know the more I think about this type of gun platform and the issues of needing all the PCP support gear that Gunfun1 brought up, I wonder if something couldn’t be done in a similar vein to the FX Independence with its built in pumping system, but enough of a reservoir/valving system to be able to take maybe 2-3 reasonable power shots before needing to re-pump. Something like this would certainly take the venerable crosman multi-pumps and update them somewhat to modern specs, while at the same time blurring the line between big box store multi-pump pneumatics like 1377/M4-177 and PCPs. Maybe it couldn’t be done for a reasonable amount of money, but I would certainly purchase a Crosman rifle in the sub $300 category with those sorts of capabilities. What do you guys think, is this a pipe dream, or a realistic idea?

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Mitchell,

          Ironically, the 2100B starts out as a multi-pump pneumatic, with the built-in pump you mention.

          B.B.

          • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

            I was thinking more along the lines of a higher efficiency regulated valving setup that allowed multiple useable shots (3 or more) on a single pumping. Unless I’m mistaken the 2100B dumps all its air on a single firing, correct? Then again its early and I’m probably over-thinking the whole thing! I still think self contained pump PCPs like the FX Independence are really cool marvels of engineering, I’m just jealous I don’t have that kind of money to spend at the moment.

            • B.B. Pelletier Says:

              Mitchell,

              You are really talking about a different type of multi-pump. Benjamin made several of this type back in the 1930s and ’40s. They got many shots per fill or only needed three pumps after the reservoir was pressurized by 20 pumps at first.

              B.B.

              • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

                I didn’t honestly know such a thing existed aside from the specialty custom-modified (and rather pricey) Benjamin 392ACP. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for the info BB.

                • Gunfun1 Says:

                  Mitchell
                  I think I asked the same question about a on board pump also and didn’t know that Benjamin made a gun like that. I believe that is another gun that should be revisited. Couldn’t you imagine a Marauder with a onboard pump like the FX Independence. I’m a big fan of the FX guns. I got a .22 cal. Monsoon and love it. And I think FX now has a bullpup design that has the onboard pump.

                  And I keep saying the only way I would get rid of the Monsoon. Is if FX would make the Independence a semi-automatic like the Monsoon.

              • Rob Says:

                I would love a multipurpose that could fire several shots and then be topped off.

                What happened to that earlier course in airgun making? Why did they discontinue it? Why isn’t it a popular make today? Are there technical hurtles or expenses that outpace the pops? Again, just curious-and I would totally buy one that was maurauder-like. The system makes all the external pump stuff unnecessary!

                Thanks for your work. You should be given the airgunners highest Medal of Honor for your work on this.
                Rob

                • Rob Says:

                  Multipurpose should read multi-pump. Silly auto spellcheck.

                • B.B. Pelletier Says:

                  Rob,

                  The earlier guns I referred to were the Benjamin models 600, 700 and 710. They were early attempts at semiautomatic pneumatic airguns. I said that they were pumped 20 times to charge, but I checked the literature and it was only 12 pumps.

                  They died from a lack of interest (low sales).

                  B.B.

                  • Gunfun1 Says:

                    BB
                    They were even semi automatic! And only 12 pumps!

                    I wonder if was the time period that the gun was released in had something to do with sells. And the other types of guns that were available. Not only including airguns but also firearms of that time period. And maybe the cost was on the high side to produce it at that time?

                    Boy I sure would love to see that happen in a modern version.

                  • Rob Says:

                    I tried to read about that series of airguns, BB, but didn’t find much. From what I did read, I’m guessing they lost out to better built Crosman guns and the growing popularity of C02. That’s too bad. I really believe there would be a market for a 397/392 version today. C02 is not all it’s cracked up to be.
                    :)

                  • Rob Says:

                    Well, I responded, but it never showed up…so excuse me if this is a double post.

                    It seems the Benjamin series, from my reading, probably was done in by work inferior to Crosman and the craze for C02 guns. I think a 392/397 adaptation today would be a big hit.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      GF1,

      You have hit the nail on the head! The gun may cost $100, but it isn’t complete without the pump. So combined packaging has to be considered, even if that drives the price up.

      But the gun still must be offered alone, too, because some folks will be able to run with it the moment they get it out of the box.

      B.B.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        BB
        Look at the Discovery. That was the gun that introduced me to the PCP world. I was glad that the Benjamin pump was offered for a additional cost. And since the pump was being offered by Crosman that it would work out of the box with out having the hassle to figure out the connections to fill the Discovery.

        Get the pump and gun package. Open the box’s pump it up and off shooting you go. All I can say is it was the best choice that I could of made at the time. And I’m very happy I did.

  • J-F Says:

    Does it really need to be shooting 800 fps? I mean look at the Bronco, it’s not shooting super fast yet it still popular and slower velocities means it may not have to be shrouded and you get more shots per fill (and I get to buy one in Canada ;-) )

    Which is more important power or accuracy? I prefer accuracy.

    J-F

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      J-F,

      The velocity is going to be one of the toughest decisions the maker have, no doubt about it.

      B.B.

      • Rob Says:

        Maybe you explained earlier, but I don’t understand the logic of holding the velocity down to 800 fps. I would have thought that “the higher, the better” just for marketing purposes. I would prefer a gun that shoot a heavier grain pellet at 8-1000 fps. So what’s the reasoning? Just curious.
        Rob

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Rob,

          Two good reasons for that. First, the higher the velocity, the fewer shots per fill. Since we are dealing with a low fill pressure and a small reservoir, holding the velocity down will give us a reasonable number of shots on a fill.

          Second, the rifle will be sold in stores that cater to first-time buyers — meaning parents and children (or more correctly, parents for their children). If this was a spring gun, we could count on the excessive cocking effort to keep the youngsters from using it, but since it is a pneumatic that anyone can cock, we don’t want to put too much power into the hands of inexperienced and undisciplined shooters.

          B.B.

    • J. Says:

      Another vote for a bit lower velocity, though for different reasons since I’m not Canadian. As a plinker, I’d prefer to get more shots even if the velocity with 8 grain pellets was only about 650 fps (7.5 ft-lbs). Unless you see this being used for hunting small game, then I don’t see the need to push this up to 11+ ft-lbs. After all it doesn’t take much energy to punch a hole in a soda can.

    • Bradly Says:

      J-F, while I agree too much is put on velocity, tuning this gun down under 800 fps will doom it in my eyes. Today all the rage on the shelves is 1000 FPS +. Those springers are on all the big box stores shelves. For a good reason. Not because they shoot better. It’s because that is what sells. Sure most of us on here know better, but the masses don’t. So if I’m a newbie, I go in with my $125 and see a couple rifles with one at 600 fps and one at 1000 fps for the same price……..I think you know where this leads….Thanks, Bradly

      • B.B. Pelletier Says:

        Bradly,

        You have just stated the perennial question that marketing managers must answer. And, for the very reasons you mention, the higher numbers do sell best.

        B.B.

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        Bradly
        That’s another very good point if they want the gun to compete at the department stores.

        But I believe if they would start packaging the guns with pictures and information about true facts.

        Like show lead pellet velocities and how it penetrates something with pictures on the box verses the velocity with the ultra light weight pellets trying to penetrate the same object.

        But the down fall of what I described and even with the velocities shown on the other guns sitting next to the $100 PCP that makes 800 fps with lead and lets say 1000 with the ultra lite pellets. Is that parent could think that gun is dangerous for their kid where another parent wouldn’t care because of how they grew up. And want something that their kids could grow into.

        But I think if you look at the Crosman 760 the Daisy 880 and the 953. Those guns all have fair velocities. And for the most part the 760 and the 880′s are setting next to the springer’s on the shelves now.

        So to me the $100 PCP rifle would be another choice to be setting on the shelves to compete. I think were the packaging and marketing needs to really look at is to show if and what advantages the $100 PCP would have over the other guns setting next to it. That’s what will help make the gun a success also.

      • J-F Says:

        But what if you already bought one of those gazillioni fps springer and can’t anything with it and you see something in store that has lower velocity but has no recoil and promises unmatched accuracy (which will be easy when compared with a springer) and you’ll be able to put any scope and rings you want without destroying them within a hundred shots…
        Market the how easy they are to shoot, how accurate they are and how many pellets you can send down range without having to cock the rifle. Just load pellet after pellet and shoot! More shooting less cocking!

        Wouldn’t you buy one?

        J-F

  • Michael Says:

    B.B.,

    I think this is a wonderful concept. Even though I own a Marauder MKI and a Marauder Synthetic, I think I would buy one of these just on principle. And I KNOW I would buy a $100 pump just to give my Hill a break now and then.

    The only potential deal-breaker for me would be if it were not shrouded. I would have bought a Discovery when they first came out if they had a shroud, but they do not, and I am still Discovery-less (please no wordplay jokes). I live in the suburbs. No shroud, no sale.

    As long as we are offering constructive marketing advice, I think so many airgunners are wise to the “bundle-with-junk scope” scam that it has become a real turn-off. This bargain PCP should be offered with a scope and also for less money without a scope. How many of us have a cardboard box full of useless scopes that came with bundled guns?

    Over the weekend I was one mouse click away from using Pyramyd Air’s 11 percent off to get a $129 Ruger Air Hawk Combo, but I decided not to. The reason? It should also be offered for $99 without the scope. Why pay $30 for a worthless scope that will never go on the rifle but straight to the junk box?

    One final suggestion: if this could be tuned for 900 fps with Hobbies, I think that would be a BIG difference over 800 fps when it came to marketing the rifle. One of the big appeals of HPA is the velocity that CO2 just can’t provide. To a lot of folks, an HPA that shoots about the same velocity as CO2 is just another gas gun but less convenient. 900 fps with lead makes this a small pest-controller. 800 fps relegates it to plinker.

    Just my 2 cents,

    Michael

    • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

      When I first got into airguns, I used to be vulnerable to the cheap-bundled-scope disease before I knew any better, thinking what a bargain I just scored. These days however, if I bought a rifle that came with open sights and a bundled scope, I don’t even bother strapping the junk scope on it for its preliminary test run. If I had known to just take the rifle outside and try it with the open sights first, I could have saved myself innumerable hours of frustration trying to zero a junk scope with junk mounts, especially if I was trying to strap it onto a cheap buzzy chinese magnum rifle. The average recreational shooter still finds it hard to believe an inexpensive airgun is an order of magnitude harsher on scopes than many very potent centerfire cartridge rifles are.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Michael,

      Thanks for weighing in.

      B.B.

    • J. Says:

      Michael, an 8 grain (or in this instance 7.9 grain Crosman Premier Light) pellet at 800 fps would produce ~ 11.3 ft-lbs at the muzzle. That’s in the same ballpark as the non-FAC air-rifles the Brits use to hunt small game (pigeon, squirrel, rabbit, etc…) at ranges out to 30-40 meters. So I don’t think it would be fair to the $100 PCP a plinker if they hold to Tom’s specs.

  • Michael Says:

    B.B.,

    I just reread Mitchell in Dayton’s comment at the top and would like to add my thanks to his for your innovative spirit and history.

    Would you be offended if I suggested another potential prototyping project?

    Every single person I know who is reluctant to get into PCPs is so because of the filling issue.

    The FX Standard Liquid Cooled Air Compressor (discontinued) and Steelplinker’s Lowbuck Compressor V2 (just a prototype) suggest that a one-piece, more affordable alternative to the shop compressor plus Shoebox combo might now be possible. If a Lowbuck could be manufactured and sold with a MSRP of $499 and “street” price of $399, Boy Howdy, I’d get in line right away.

    Just a thought.

    Michael

    • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

      Engineering a truly affordable high pressure compressor suitable for use with PCPs or even the HPA paintball crowd could turn the market on its ear. I see that as being a sort of PCP holy grail. $499 to eliminate a hand-pump and or a tank would be fantastic, especially if there was a bundle with a smaller CF regulated buddy bottle for roundabout $699 and you could have a serious homerun on your hands. I wonder if it couldn’t be made to run off standard 110V AC and still have a 100% duty cycle and not be too loud. Truly an exciting time to be an airgunner ain’t it?

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      What I was getting at with adding a scope in with the deal. Is I believe that Crosman has something to do with Center Point scopes. I have had some quality scopes and some cheap scopes.

      But I think that the Center Point scope would be a fair match for the $100 dollar PCP. I myself like the Hawke scopes. But if Crosman would include a Center Point scope with the deal even if they added $20 dollars to the gun. It would be good to keep in mind that the $100 PCP is a gun that is going to introduce some body to the world of airguns in the future like the Crosman 760 has done forever. And yes there is the more experienced people that want to get them also. So I guess it wouldn’t hurt to offer it either way. With or without the scope.

      So I still say for what type of gun it is and the purpose that the gun will fulfill. I think the scope needs to be there. It will only add to the gun.

      And I wish that all these scopes that people say they get with there airguns and take them off and throw them away or something. Well you all can throw them my way. I would be happy to get them. Just say’n you know. :)

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    This comment was sent to the wrong address, so I am posting it here:

    Hi, I was reading your blog and have some info on the one gun with the painted rear sight. I have one of these and have had it since new when I was a kid. It was bought at home hardware in Canada. When new it came with a new replacement spring. I changed mine along time ago but feel the original one was strong as it would break bottles and the replacement won’t. As far as being durable I’ve shot thousands of pellets through mine and it still works great. The accuracy is very good and always has been even though the back sight moves around, as long as its in the middle of the holder its bang on. Hope this helps. Jay

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Jay,

      I’m not sure which model you refer to, but welcome to the blog.

      As for your current gun being less powerful, it’s probably not the spring but the seals that need replacing. When they get old they tend to leak air and that lowers the velocity.

      B.B.

  • Fred DPRoNJ Says:

    Ah, ha. Now I know why the rifle isn’t as accurate as a Marauder. You’ve used a cheap, probably made in China piece of cardboard as your barrel shim. Replacing that with some good New Jersey manufactured cardboard should solve the accuracy problems, BB. So now will there be another part? :)

    Fred DPRoNJ

  • RB Says:

    B.B.,

    You and Dennis have proven an inexpensive PCP is possible. Thanks for inviting us along on the journey.

    A $100, 1500psi PCP rifle could be bundled with Crosman’s 2000psi tank.

    An affordable PCP with onboard pump would be very desirable. I see your $100 PCP experiments as steps toward that end.

    Imagine a family of Crosman PCP low-pressure rifles with onboard pump: a $200, 1500psi 2100B; $300-$400, 2000psi Discovery; and $700, 2000+ psi Marauder.

    The 2100 and Discovery are light enough and inexpensive enough to easily handle the increased weight and cost. A Marauder would compete directly against the FX Indy at far lower cost.

    I would immediately buy a reasonably priced, onboard pump version of the Discovery, Marauder or Talon.

    As always, enjoy your reports very much.

    RB

    • Mitchell in Dayton Says:

      Thats precisely what I would be interested in. You cannot beat the simplicity of self-contained.

    • Michael Says:

      RB,

      I’m a little confused.

      Do you imagine a high pressure air rifle with a pump that is part of the rifle, attached to it? Crosman has such a rifle, the Benjamin 397/392.

      OR are you describing a Benjamin 397/392 but with multi-shot cability from a single session of pumping? If so, a fellow named Steve Woodward has designed a modified Benjamin 392 which can be set to shoot three times from eight pumps, each shot producing about 8 foot pounds. After the three shots, pump it up again for the next three.

      That is, of course, an all wood and metal gun with around 1300 psi, like a stock 392. As for a 2100B that is all that B.B. and Dennis Q. have done but with the addition of a pumping mechanism that would fill it to 1500 psi, remember, that is a plastic, sheet metal, and pot metal gun except for the robust air tank Dennis Q. made. I would be surprised if the stock and action materials could handle the stress of pumping it on-board to a full charge again and again. Remember, the stock 2100b has a smaller reservoir that holds a lower pressure charge than the 397/392, let alone 1500 psi, plus, adding the pumping mechanism would make this a 30-40 percent larger rifle, which would make it less appealing as a youth gun.

      I prefer the idea of an EXTREMELY affordable rifle that someone would buy as a way of dipping his toes in the PCP water, so to speak, with a tiny investment. Hey, the pump will cost more than the gun, but the pump will LAST longer than the gun and can be used to pump up a new Marauder once the buyer outgrows or wears out the “2100PCP.”

      This is a cool idea precisely BECAUSE it is cheap and simple, yes?

      Michael

      • Gunfun1 Says:

        Michael
        I think you got Robs reply confused with RB’s reply here.

        I think RB is talking about multiple levels of self contained PCP rifles with on board pump system for the PCP guns he listed with prices with each level and type of gun if I’m understanding RB’s reply. I hope I didn’t mess that up trying to explain.

        And Michael I think what you just explained about the guy that made the 397/392 shoot 3 times with 8 pumps is what Rob is talking about. Again I hope I’m understood correctly.

        And I agree with what you said here.

        “I prefer the idea of an EXTREMELY affordable rifle that someone would buy as a way of dipping his toes in the PCP water, so to speak, with a tiny investment. Hey, the pump will cost more than the gun, but the pump will LAST longer than the gun and can be used to pump up a new Marauder once the buyer outgrows or wears out the “2100PCP.”

        This is a cool idea precisely BECAUSE it is cheap and simple, yes?”

        All I can say is I hope we can get to try out the $100 PCP for ourselves when it goes into production. And hopefully pretty soon.

  • StevenG Says:

    Not bad. With that much marketing behind it will be a huge seller.
    The current competing device lacks that level of marketing, but I doubt the current seller could keep up with this level of output.

    Glad to hear you say a shroud would be welcome. Even for $200 I would get one with a shroud.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      StevenG,

      Yes, a shroud is needed with this rifle. It really cracks on the first part of the charge.

      B.B.

      • J. Says:

        I may have missed this if it was in an earlier part, so I’m going to ask. Is the un-shrouded gun louder than a .22LR rifle?

        • twotalon Says:

          J.

          Depends on barrel length and kind of ammo in the LR. and barrel length and power setting of the airgun.

          Let’s take a .22LR shooting subsonics with a 24″ barrel……not much noise.
          A PCP shooting at high power levels will be louder because it has more volume and pressure left in the gasses used for propelling the pellet when the pellet hits the muzzle.

          twotalon

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          J.,

          It’s not even close. Big bore air rifle get close to .22 lr sound and may be a little louder, but smallbores don’t.

          Think of a Benjamin 392 on 8 pump strokes as how loud this is.

          B.B.

          • J. Says:

            So the barrel shroud isn’t something that’s really necessary then. Its more of a would be nice to have (especially if you’re in the burbs) as opposed to a necessity because otherwise you’re looking at hearing damage.

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      I was trying to not comment on the shroud thing but I couldn’t take it any longer.

      A lot of people already know what I think about quiet guns and shrouds.

      Yes please let there be a shroud on the gun as I have said before. And baffles inside also!

  • B.B. Pelletier Says:

    Benjamin automatic guns,

    Everyone, the early Benjamin automatics (semiautomatics) were ball-shooters with 25-shot spring-loaded magazine tubes. They were finicky and difficult to keep operational, plus they cost more than the conventional Benjamin multi pump single shots of the day.

    I see them for sale at the airgun shows as collector’s items, not as shooters. While I’m sure they can be made to operate today, they are best left on the way, as there are numerous repeating air rifles that are more reliable.

    B.B.

    • Gunfun1 Says:

      BB
      Loved hearing about the old design.

      But really, how hard would it be for them to modernize the design and make a production model now days? You don’t have to go into detail. But is it really that far away from being able to be done?

  • Wight Says:

    I loved this experiment.

    I don’t know anything about the market except my own preferences. I very much like that PCP doesn’t have to buy CO2. I like that PCP does not have piston recoil to learn about (although if I were an air rifle first-timer, I might not know that – it would be worth making a fuss over on the packaging).

    If I hunted with air rifle, I would like the power potential and quick follow-up shot. But, here in Canada, hunting-grade air rifles are classed as firearms and you must have your firearms licence – which means you can have a .22LR for the same money and hassle.

    So the biggest remaining appeal to PCP for me is precision and ergonomics. $100 for the rifle and $100 for the pump would make a great contender against the pump pneumatics in the same price range because shooting a string of 5 or 10 shots without disturbing my firing position to pump would be very desirable. I wouldn’t need more than 10 shots, since I’ll be moving around to change targets etc and could do some pumping then. At $100, I don’t think we’re talking about intra-heartbeat competitors.

    I used to do barnloads of plinking, and making a quick string would be fun there, too. Either plinking or target I don’t think very long strings are necessary, nor are high muzzle velocities. Lower pressures and easy/cheap pumping make sense to me.

    ~Wight

  • Jerry in Texas Says:

    I finally have my first PCP rifle on the way, a Marauder with synthetic stock. At least for now, I will mostly shoot it indoors so quietness is way more important than velocity. Can you please give me a starting point to keep velocities below 750 fps, where you have stated that it is the quietest, while maintaining a reasonable number of shots per fill and reasonable accuracy?

    Air guns have been a part of my life through most of my 71 years. This is my first venture into PPC. I am very excited about this journey and will be relying on you and others on this blog to guide me.

    Thanks for all of your help in the past.

    fasride
    Jerry in Texas

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Jerry,

      I’m guessing you don’t own a chronograph, right? So getting to a certain velocity will be difficult.

      What caliber is your rifle?

      Since the report is all you care about, I would start shooting it as it comes out of the box. That may surprise you. If it is a .177 it probably will. If it is a .25, it will be louder.

      If your rifle is a .177, try the air transfer port limiter (power adjustment) screw one full turn out. I was in the 700s at that setting. Read this report to see how that is done:

      http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/07/benjamin-marauder-pcp-177-caliber-air-rifle-part-4/

      B.B.

    • GenghisJan Says:

      Hi, Jerry and B.B. Hate to contradict our host, but unless the adjustments on the new synthetic-stocked version have changed, you need to turn the transfer port adjustment in/clockwise to reduce your velocity.

      I might also suggest adjusting the transfer port in smaller increments than a full turn. On my .177 Marauder, one turn in/clockwise on the transfer port takes her from 851 fps to 539! I find myself working in 1/8-turn increments.

      PS, the manual (for the v1 Marauder at least) suggests turning the transfer port screw all the way in ’till it bottoms, and then counting how many turns back out you need to reach your desired velocity. It also claims that it takes 4 1/2 turns out from the bottom to completely open the transfer port. Is it the same with the new v2 Marauder?

      -Jan

      • Jerry in Texas Says:

        Thanks for your replies. I don’t have the Marauder yet, and I still don’t have an air supply lined up, but I should receive the rifle today and have an air tank by next week. My Marauder will be a .177 with synthetic stock. Although quietness is necessary, accuracy is also. I don’t care about velocity because I will not be hunting with it, only target shooting.

        I will be needing to purchase a chronograph. I have had one in the past, but I loaned it to a friend and never got it back. Can you suggest a reasonably priced one that will work for setting up the Marauder?
        Pyramyd Air was out of the Red and Blue Chrony, but have the Green F-1 one.

        I have another question. I am very interested in the Air Arms S510 Xtra FAC Side Lever air rifle. I have never seen one except pictures, but it is a beautiful rifle. I saw a You Tube video of someone shooting it and there was only a metal sound when shot. Would that be the “ping” that the Newer Maurader has solved with their “de-pinger”? If that is the case, do you know if there are air-gun smiths that have made a “de-pinger” for the Air Arms rifle? My living situation requires me to be very noise considerate while shooting my air guns.

        Thank you for your input.
        jerry

        • B.B. Pelletier Says:

          Jerry,

          I would shoot your rifle right as it comes from the box. You may be surprised. That report I linked to shows how to dial it down ands one turn out from the bottom should do it.

          As far as the S510 goes, I have to defer to others who know it better.

          B.B.

  • JoeB on Orcas Island Says:

    [off topic] Dear Edith/Tom, The Dan Wesson CO2 BB Revolver, Gold, 2.5″ is stunning. Do you know if it will be offered in a pellet/rifled bbl version? I’d like more accuracy than I could get with steel BBs in an unrifled bbl.

    Thanks, JoeB

    • Edith Gaylord Says:

      JoeB,

      The Dan Wesson guns are made by the same companies that make airsoft guns, and I seriously doubt they’re going to rifle any barrels since rifling isn’t part of making airsoft guns.

      Edith

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      JoeB,

      Edith got there first, but that is exactly what I would have told you. Airsoft companies have no experience making rifled pellet guns, and I wouldn’t hold your breath.

      B.B.

      • JoeB on Orcas Island Says:

        Edith & B.B., Well, darn! Guess I’ll buy it anyway…it’s too beautiful to pass up. Thanks.

  • John Says:

    I really like the idea but do not shroud that barrel. Doing so takes the possibility of some customers that want this and trashes it. It makes it too difficult to get in places like Michigan that requires all shrouded airguns to go through an FFL dealer. Not every FFL dealer will order air guns for us. I personally need to take a 8 mile bike ride to even order one and an 8 mile ride home. Then when it comes in I have to repeat the process. If you stay away from shrouding it I can simply order it. I don’t know why but Lansing politicians seem to think a shrouded barrel makes an air gun more evil.

    • Michael Says:

      More evil? Dunno about that. But HEAR LESS EVIL, definitely. ;^)

      Michael

      • John Says:

        You know how spineless politicians are. If they decide a shrouded barrel on an air rifle is more evil they will make it harder to get them. Apparently one of our politicians in Lansing saw an airgun with a shrouded barrel and it scared him. So he decided to make them harder to get to save him from going home without wet pants.

        • Wulfraed Says:

          Take into account that it was only a few years ago that MI issued a ruling that if the Fed issued the paperwork to transfer a firearm silence, said silencer would be considered “licensed” and legal to possess in MI — prior to that, possession of a silencer required one to have a license, but there was no procedure in place for the state to issue such a license.

          Since shrouded airguns aren’t similarly controlled by BATFE — no paperwork available… I’m actually surprised they allow them through an FFL dealer. {Also remember that pellet pistols — if the barrel is rifled — require the permit-to-purchase/registration form to be filled out… Even if you move from outside the state to MI with a few such [IZH 46M, Umarex Walther CP99, Crosman Silhouette, and Daisy 717]}

          • John Says:

            It’s not too big a deal to get a shrouded barrel (The shoulder thing that goes up). I just need to go get it delivered through an FFL dealer. It’s one of those really stupid political gun control laws that are in place to annoy people more than protect them from those evil “shoulder things that go up”.

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      John,

      An interesting take. I hadn’t considered that.

      B.B.

      • Michael Says:

        B.B. and John,

        Crosman’s marketing team will have to do a little study to figure out which, shrouded or not, will likely provide a better bottom line for them. They are a for-profit, after all.

        Many more people will want it with a shroud, but MI won’t allow them to have it. How many states regulate fixed, non-firearm-useable airgun shrouds? I live in Illinois, which until recently regulated 700 fps. airguns as firearms. The state did away with that law. But IL still considers an airgun over .18 caliber to be a firearm.

        But IL does not regulate airgun shrouds in any way. Is Michigan the only state do do that? If IL and CA don’t, just how many could there be, realistically?

        Frankly I’m surprised MI, a state with a hunting tradition as strong as AK, WI, and MN, would regulate airguns in ANY way.

        Michael

      • John Says:

        Seems nobody considers that when designing the next airgun. I know quiet guns are all the rage and I like them too. But most of the guns coming out now are really hard to get for someone that lives in a state where a politician was frightened by a shrouded barrel on a gun they often know nothing about. They just hear the scarey sounding “barrel shroud” and “quieter” and they think it makes the gun more evil and more lethal. For what it’s worth I have heard a politician asked why she was against barrel shrouds. She couldn’t give an intelligible answer. She just started on rattling about weapons of war on the streets. When asked directly what she thought a barrel shroud was her reply was a rather vacant look and,”It’s a shoulder thing that goes up.” Because of this blind ignorance we now have to suffer with laws about things politicians are totally clueless about.

  • Chris Says:

    B.B., I know the factory 2100 barrels have decent rifling, but are fairly thin-walled. Would retro fitting a thicker walled barrel do much if anything to help with the accuracy of this? Because if so, I might be very tempted to try my hand at one of these to get my foot in the PCP game. All I have right now is break barrels, springers and co2 guns which I love all of them, but everybody keeps telling me that I don’t know what I’m missing. Hopefully one day I will find out but I do not have any friends in the hobby to borrow their rifles.

    • Michael Says:

      Chris,

      There are many web sites that detail different methods for shimming soda straw barrels to prevent movement within the barrel sleeve, and the result is always, it seems, significantly improved accuracy.

      I think it has more to do with stabilizing the barrel within the sleeve than having a thicker barrel, although the thicker barrel would have greater stability, too. But to keep costs down so that the end price is low, some compromises must be made on materials.

      Michael

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      Chris,

      The short answer is yes, changing the barrel can make a positive improvement. But on guns like this it isn’t easy to do.

      B.B.

  • J. Says:

    Tom, I have an off-topic question. There’s a Beeman R10 at a local gun shop in my county. CF_45 has expressed an interest in buying the R10. However he’s in Missouri, not Ohio and the gun shop doesn’t want to ship the R10 to him. (I’m not sure why. The only thing I can think of is that it is because they are a firearms dealer.) Would it be legal for me to pick up the gun and ship it to CF_45 or are there legal complications here that neither of us are seeing?

    • B.B. Pelletier Says:

      J.,

      There are no laws prohibiting the shipment of airguns nationally. In fact, it’s legal to ship air rifles through the Post Office.

      Fed Ex and UPS will make up “rules” in repressed states, simply because they think that way. Store ny store they make up the rules as they go. But the truth is, the law is clear. You can ship an airgun almost anywhere. New jersey requires its citizens to register airguns through an FFL dealer. This is a state requirement and not a national one. But shipping an airgun there would be legal for the sender located outside the state, but illegal for the recipient inside the state.

      I don’t think Ohio has laws like that.

      B.B.

      • J. Says:

        Tom, thanks for the reply. I didn’t think there were any laws prohibiting shipping an airgun in Ohio or Missouri. However I wasn’t sure and I figured you might be more familiar with that than I was. (If for no other reason because Dennis Quackenbush is in Missouri (at least I think he is) and I figured he might have shipped you the $100 PCP. Also because you probably get airguns shipped to you regularly.)

        CF45 gave me more information last night. He said the reason they didn’t want to ship the R10 was because it was on consignment. That makes a lot of sense to me. And like I said I just wanted an informed opinion since I didn’t want to trip over any laws if we did this.

    • Vince Says:

      I believe that Federal law specifically exempts air guns from all interstate shipping restrictions. The only potential issue (not likely in Missouri) is if it is illegal for him to receive it in his state. But that’s sorta HIS problem, not yours…

  • SAPHA1772236 Says:

    Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but there already is a 100$ PCP; the XS60 from Flying Dragon air rifles. I have no personal experience with it, but what I do know is it is a PCP and sells for 100$. Of course if you get it with the Flying Dragon hand pump it is 240$. (I think, may not be exactly that.)

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