RWS Diana 350 Feuerkraft in .177: Part 2

by B.B. Pelletier

Photos and test by Earl “Mac” McDonald

Part 1


The RWS Diana 350 Feuerkraft is a budget version of the 350 Magnum powerplant. It still comes with open sights, so nothing more to buy.

Today, we’ll look at the velocity Mac got from his .177 Feuerkraft 350. Mac is a fan of the .177 caliber because of the high velocity. He wants his rifle to shoot flat so he doesn’t have to guess the range to the target as closely, and a .177 gives him the highest velocity.

He also wants a big punch at the target. In that, he’s a lot like many of you — wanting both speed and knockdown power. As a result, he tests all powerful .177s with the heaviest pellets he can find. In this case, they’re the 16.1-grain Eun Jin domes.

When he was ready to test them, Mac discovered that the Eun Jins appeared to have many flaws. For starters, they appeared to him to have come from four different dies. Let interject something at this point. One pellet die does not make just one pellet at a time. It makes 50 or 100 pellets at a time. What Mac may have seen was a gross inconsistency from pellet cavity to pellet cavity in one die. When he tested them for accuracy, he sorted them by weight and, I suppose, by appearance. When he tested velocity, which we’re looking at today, he did not sort the pellets.

Eun Jin pellets
Mac got an average of 682 f.p.s. from the Eun Jin pellets in the Feuerkraft 350. The spread was 18 f.p.s., from 673 to 691 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 16.63 foot-pounds, which Mac feels is disappointing for such a potentially powerful air rifle. I’d like to point out that unless the rifle has been tuned to shoot heavy pellets, a spring rifle will almost always be more efficient with the lighter pellets. To tune for the heavier pellets, the piston’s weight must be increased, but the factory builds it to shoot average weight pellets.

JSB Exact heavy pellets
The next pellet Mac tried was the 10.2-grain JSB Exact dome — the one we call the heavy. It gave an average 938 f.p.s., with a range that reached from 933 to 943 f.p.s. A spread of only 10 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 19.93 foot-pounds, which you can see is a considerable gain over the Eun Jins.

RWS Superdome pellets
Next, Mac tried his favorite — RWS Superdomes. These 8.3-grain pellets averaged 1039 f.p.s,. with a range from 1028 to 1050 f.p.s., a spread of 22 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 19.92 foot-pounds, or very close to what the JSB Exact heavies gave. With that high velocity, I don’t expect much accuracy from them.

RWS Supermag pellets
The 9.3-grain RWS Supermag pellet is a heavy wadcutter that sometimes tames the more powerful spring guns by virtue of its weight. In the Feuerkraft 350, they averaged 955 f.p.s. with an 11 foot-second spread from 951 to 962 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 18.82 foot-pounds. This is good velocity performance, though it may mean nothing when we test the accuracy. That’s why both things must be considered before we can tell what the best pellet is for a given rifle.

RWS Hobby pellets
For a lightweight pellet, Mac tried the old standby RWS Hobby, a 7-grain lead pellet that averaged 1145 f.p.s. in this rifle. The spread went from 1130 to 1160 f.p.s., for a total of 30 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 20.38 foot-pounds, which was the highest energy noted during this test. Mac also noted that the pellets fit loose in the breech, though the skirts were undoubtedly blown out into the rifling upon firing.

Crosman Premier heavy pellets
Mac tried the 10.5-grain Crosman Premier heavy domed pellet next. It averaged 891 f.p.s. and the spread ranged from 874 to 911 f.p.s., for a total of 37 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy was 18.49 foot-pounds. The fit in the bore was tight, which I attribute to the harder lead alloy of the pellet.

RWS HyperMAX pellets
Finally, Mac tried the non-lead RWS HyperMAX pellet. These 5.2-grain wadcutters are designed to get the highest velocity out of a powerful air rifle. They averaged 1293 f.p.s in the Fewuerkraft 350 and the 24 f.p.s. spread went from 1277 to 1301 f.p.s. The average muzzle energy worked out to 19.31 foot-pounds. At this velocity, these pellets should not be very accurate. They also fit the breech very loosely.

Well, that’s a fairly complete test of the potential power of a .177 RWS Diana Feuerkraft 350. As you can see, the lighter .177 pellets are scraping up against the upper boundaries of velocity, where best accuracy is concerned. And some of them go past the limit into the no man’s land of transsonic and even supersonic flight. Those should not give much accuracy at all.

Next time w’ell test the accuracy of this rifle. Because it’s a Diana, I’m thinking it’ll do fairly well when the velocity is kept below 1,000 f.p.s. But, we’ll see.

78 thoughts on “RWS Diana 350 Feuerkraft in .177: Part 2

  1. I’m thinking of getting a Ruger Air Magnum Combo from PA, and I was wondering, what kind of groupings do people get at 10-50yds? If I use a 10gr pellet, it will be more accurate than say the Crosman Premier Pointed 7.? gr pellet?

    Thanks,
    Conor


    • Conor, you just love those pointed pellets. I don’t know much about the rugers, except that they are private labeled guns most likely made in china and not by our beloved ruger firearm manufacturer. What are you looking to get out of it? 10-50 yards is quite a large range. Lighter pellets are going to shoot flatter and faster, heavy pellets for the most part are going to deliver downrange power. is this gun going to be to compete with, plink or to separate squirrels from their nuts?


    • Conor
      When you say Crosman Premiere Pointed, do you mean the Crosman field hunting pellets or the Crosman Premiere Superpoints?

      Pointed pellets usually do not shoot as well as domed or round nose. There is no way to be sure how any pellet is going to work because of how the fit of the pellet to the rifle works out.

      Heavy pellets can be expected to work best if you have wind or need more hitting power at a distance, but the rifle needs to shoot them well in the first place. Again, does the particular rifle like them or not?

      Pointeds are better in some cases if you need more penetration…provided you can hit with them. Harder pellets can be better at times if you have to crack a hard skull rather than having a softer pellet smash out and glance off.

      You may need to compromise between accuracy and hitting power. You would have to keep in mind what your range limitations turn out to be for any given pellet under your typical shooting conditions.

      twotalon


      • Please allow me to rephrase that in simpler terms : Conor, you won’t know for sure until you’ve tried it out.

        I think what makes it difficult is also what makes it interesting, testing stuff out, seeing what works and what doesn’t experimenting with different hold, the mechanics of things. I love it. If I didn’t have to work I could do this all day long.

        Common airgun manufacturer, send them prototypes over, I’ll test them out for you.

        J-F


    • /blog/2010/12/ruger-air-magnum-combo-part-3/

      That might give you a little more insight to the ruger. Interestingly enough, that was the article I was looking for about adjusting objectives on cheap scopes, so thanks fr helping me with finding that:) If you still have that 34p you told me you had over on airgunarena, I think that you would be more pleased with that in all aspects when placed up against the ruger.


      • Conor…my own experience is that I haven’t found a pointed pellet that is accurate beyond 30 yds or so.
        I only use them when I want to impress people with the penetration power of my air rifles at short range.


      • OJ, My 34p is .22. I’m kinda wanting something that’s a powerful .177(most powerful one we have now is the Raven), and one that can be used over @ airgunarena. After reading the article, I think that 1.1 inch grouping at 35yds is okay, seeing that my 34p .22 at 35 yds will only group a 1.5-2″ group.

        Thanks for the link,
        Conor



        • Conor : While new guns are nice, maybe you should take the money you would spend on that Ruger and buy pellets instead. Buy as many kinds of .22 pellets from PA as you can with that money . Then shoot them until their gone or something wears out on the 34. Don’t limit yourself to cheap pellets from Walmart,Robert.


          • Robert,
            I’ve got $115 worth of .22 pellets coming my way from PA!!! 🙂 I got JSB Polymags, H&N, Air Arms, JSB Domes, Gamo Hunter, ect.

            Now I’m thinking before I buy a expensive .177, I should get the Daisy 880, and the Beeman P17.

            How many times do you have to “pump” the p17? Once?

            Conor


            • Conor,

              If you read the description for the Beeman P17, it says that the action is a single-stroke pneumatic. By definition, that is an action you can only pump one time.

              B.B.


            • Conor, if the P17 is anywhere near as good as my Marksman 2004 (it oughta be the same gun) you’d be tickled to death with it.

              But the 880? Seems like a lot of work for medium power and will the compromised barrel (BB or pellet) be as accurate as you want?


              • Vince, Google “Marksman 2004” then click on the Pyramydair blog entry about it. Then click the link to PA for it and the Beeman P17 comes up. So I’d say it IS the same gun under a different name.

                Conor



                • Toby, When I said the Crosman Premier Pointed pellets, I was referring to the .177 cal for my 1377c. I do use good pellets in my 34p .22. Currently I’m using JSB Exact RS 13.43 grain, and I just ordered $115 worth of .22 pellets from PA the other day….I CAN’T WAIT!!!;-)

                  I’m looking for a VERY powerful .177 rifle from PA only cause I’ve got some eGift cards that need to be used. Preferably something that will actually shoot regular pellets(not the PBA’s) at 900/950 – 1+++.

                  Conor


                  • Conor, I guess I missed that info. Hmmm, well, I have to agree with the guys on giving the 34 a chance with other pellets. Sounds like good advice. As far as the powerful reasonably priced .177 goes, hows-about an AR1000 variant ?(everyone please chime in with opinions, good or bad, I do not want to miss lead him). The Tech Force TF 89 Contender or Walther Force 1000 are both an AR1000. I have the Walther, mine will consistently push a Crosman Premiere lite out at around 960 fps and I live at 7,000 feet. It has a nice trigger and is very accurate. Maybe I got lucky and got a good one. It might be worth doing a little research on or ask the more knowledgeable folks on this blog what they think. Once again this is just my opinion. Toby



                    • Richard,

                      Welcome to the blog. You posted to Part 2, and the accuracy results were in Parts 3 and 4. Did you see them?

                      /blog/2011/03/rws-diana-350-feuerkraft-350-in-177-part-4/

                      B.B.



              • From what Conor has told me, he is EXTREMELY interested in velocity and hunting. The 953 would not suit him for anything, from what I gather, besides paper punching. Conor, how about getting a Benjamin Discovery and pump? Velocity, power, easy to mod, and lets not forget… THE ADDICTION TO PCP! The good pcp, as in pre-charged pneumatic, not the bad kind which I don’t know what the acronym stands for…


                • OJ, Yes, I’m kinda wanting FPS for hunting, and long range target shooting(I love shooting with my RWS 34p .22, pellet tins at 100 yds). And, I was kinda contemplating the 953 whether I should get it or not.

                  I’d kinda like to (for now) keep my collection down to multi-pumps and springers. Maybe in a year or two I’ll look into PCP.

                  Thanks anyway,
                  Conor


                • OJ, You are correct except he was considering the 880 and I wouldn’t consider that neither powerful nor a hunter whereas the 953 as a single pump pneumatic is very accurate and a known “competition” shooter in youth groups. They are well built, cheap, fun, and again very accurate. I wouldn’t consider a hunter/longrange shooter to be anything less than 800fps. Now, my opinion is based in that I don’t consider shooting non-game birds as hunting. I’m sure squirrels have been shot with just about anything and everything but I don’t consider merely wounding animals as hunting.

                  -Chuck


  2. Mac,

    I don’t know that I’d be disappointed with the the 16.1-grain Eun Jin domes. They are heavier than lots of .22 cal pellets, and not particularly light ones at that. It seems that the next two heaviest pellets shot in that “sweet spot” range of just under between 900 and 950 fps. These two heavy pellets should give you a nice flat trajectory, a desired velocity below supersonic, and solid down-range stopping power. I can’t wait for the accuracy tests!

    Thanks,
    Victor



    • Bruce,

      No one has created a rule of thumb to guesstimate pellet favoritism yet. Probably the reason they haven’t is because you have to completely disassemble the rifle to weigh the piston and then you have to test the spring for strength and trying different pellets is a lot easier.

      B.B.


      • ‘m sorry B.B. I wasn’t real clear with my question. What I was asking is: is there a formula that will enable you to design a springer optimizing it to shoot a particular weight pellet, your choice depending on the use you’re putting the gun to, at the “magic” 900 fps?

        Bruce


        • Bruce,

          There are no formulas for designing spring guns that I am aware of. And only Lloyd has come up with a detailed formula for designing PCPs that would probably translate to any kind of pneumatic.

          However, there are a few guidelines. For example, the diameter of an air transfer port should probably not exceed 0.125″ for a powerful spring gun. And I’m sure most airgun manufacturers do have notes they follow when designing new guns. But don’t look for them to be published–ever.

          B.B.


  3. 680 for a 16.1gr pellet? Wow. The .22 version will go a faster than that with the same weight pellet. Obviously the advantages of .177 in a gun like this are reversed once you get into heavier pellets. According to a velocity chart that’s available online the outright velocity for this gun in .22 looks to overtake the .177 once you get heavier than about 12gr.


    • Vince,

      That is true for all power plants I believe. Certainly for pcp, as my .177 Caliber sumatra carbine gets about 34 fpe max and the .22 gets about 50 fpe max and the .25 gets about 78 fpe max! Over twice as much power in the .25 as in the .177. And the .177 carbine pushes that 16.1 gr pellet out at 975 fps for the first shot from a fresh fill!

      And Mac picking a .177 caliber for the flatter trajectory may be a mistake also. Most of the comparisons I have seen on trajectory show a slower .22 caliber pellet having an advantage over the faster .177 caliber pellet in the trajectory? At least the ones shot from the same power plant!

      For sure we know the heavier larger caliber pellets resist effects of wind much better than the .177!

      That said, all my guns are .177 as I can shoot much more for the same money! I do not own any guns in any other caliber.


      • Flatness of trajectory really depends on one thing and one thing only – time in flight. The longer the pellet is in flight the farther it will drop. A lighter .177 pellet will definitely have an advantage here, even in a gun like this. But not as much as one might be inclined to think – the .177 will tend to slow down a bit faster than the .22 with the same BC, so the .177’s advantage diminishes with range.


        • A little off-topic maybe,but that time in flight thing has got me wondering about the newer alloy pellets in springers. If you use the .177″s you get speed initally, but no retained energy down range, and poor penetration for hunting use. So if you were to use a non-lead pellet in .22 or better yet a .25, you would then have an advantage? This is assuming the same powerplant. So ,in a springer , if forced to use a non-lead pellet , it would be an advantage to have a .25 cal springer. This would be for shooting within the 33 meter range?,Robert.


  4. Mac, do you have time to pop a 15.8gn Big Boy Senior 177 pellet in the 350? I find them to shoot great in a PCP and the RWS350 may handle them and produce more energy than your 10gn pellets.


  5. One of my air rifles is a Diana 52 in .177. I have been shooting JBS Heavies in it with good results. However, I have read so many good things here about Crosman Premier pellets that I want to try them.
    Which weight would you recommend to try first in this rifle.

    Mike


  6. BB,
    The problem with a powerplant like this is that you are going to be down to less than a handful of pellets that are likely to shoot accurately before you even start testing. Even 950 is probably just a bit too fast, 900 is better — the less the pellet is exposed to transonic region at beginning, the less chance it will be deflected. On the other hand, you don’t know until you try it, so I’ll wait for the accuracy test.

    Good point on the pellet dies — another topic that will no doubt fascinate the serious airgunners judging by the amount of time they spend agonizing over Premier lot numbers (even cheap as I am, I would just try to find a JSB that works; they are consistent without the carboard vs. tin and lot number hoopla).

    By the way, I agree with Mac about .177 — better trajectory (sectional density is pretty much a wash for common pellets between .177 and .22, I think, so it comes down to velocity and Cd), penetration and better pellet selection. In this case, though, I would definitely consider a .22.


  7. Mike,

    my 52 in .177 likes RWS Super H’s at 10.4 gr (?). I can’t remember exact weight as I’m at work now. In this rifle, the RWS’s outshot the Crosman Premier’s. Try both – this is the fun in this sport – finding out which pellet a particular rifle likes best and this will vary from rifle to rifle in the same model and caliber! Go for the PA special – buy 3 tins, get a 4th free. Just remember to actually ORDER 4 tins. Some of the less gifted on this blog have not done so in the past and wondered why they only got 3 tins :).

    As my boss’ boss would say, “and you know who you are….”. No names, no disrespect intended – only a tease.

    Fred PRoNJ


  8. I’d like to thank Edith for intervening with a problem I was having contacting PA. THANKS EDITH! (I opened my email this morning to find shipping notification from PA, for a box of CP domes.) I understand this blog is not a PA customer service venue, but when I posted last week to see if anyone else was having difficulty in getting responses to calls or inquiries from PA, Edith took interest and a minor issue is fixed. On this end, my wife is now well-informed that, when buying pellets for me (This holiday…give the gift of LEAD!) to buy 4, not 3. I’m hoping any needed contact with PA in the future will be quick and smooth, but again many thanks Edith.



    • That’s great and Edith is a peach, she has helped me with one or two issues and like you, PA has responded to make it right.

      There is a good team at PA including Tom and Edith, you just need to work it a little to make it happen.


  9. BB and all,

    I finally got my used .22 Marauder and Hill pump! The gun was tuned by Greg Davis (factory barrel, not an LW), and although it has been moved off his valve settings, the trigger is outstanding and I know from his sample target that the gun can shoot. His notes say that it is picky about pellets though, and that Barracudas shot best for him. I get everyone’s comments about the blocky stock, but it feels great to me when put to my shoulder, so no complaints here . To me, it is simply a stunning rifle, especially for the cost.

    I was told by the seller that it shoots Barracuda and JSB 18.1 pellets the best, and that it does well with Predators out to around 40-50 yards or so (I have 3 mags modified to use them), and that it was last tuned for long range hunting with the Barracudas, so presumably this was on high power. I have not had the opportunity to shoot it much, but I did charge it up to 3000 psi and fired two clips through it. It was putting out about 32 FPE with the Barracudas. I got the impression that it was not shot much with any lighter pellets

    The first ten shots were with Barracudas, and the first shot was at 814 fps, and it peaked at 824 on the fourth shot and headed down fast from there (which supports a hunting set up). Out of curiosity I loaded the second clip with 10 H&N FTT, and they were not much faster – it sounded like it was wasting a lot of air with these. After the 20 shots, it was down to about 1800 psi, so I don’t think this is a very efficient set up for me, and I need to change it. I suspect a little more power might still be available too, but I don’t think I’ll be going for that.

    I am looking for guidance as I prepare to tune it for my use, and am looking for information that may speed up the whole process (especially since I will be hand pumping for all the work). I read the A-Teams tuning guide, and it looks like I’ll need a lot of pellets to do this – and I’d kind of like to avoid testing all settings as they propose, but if I have to then I will (but it would be nice to have a “working set up” that I can get to quickly while I continue to play over several weeks/months).

    If possible, I would like to tune it to get about 30 good shots at around 24 ft lbs (higher on both accounts is OK too!). I plan to shoot mostly at 20 yards indoors, but also take out pests at up to 40 yards. I have no real issue with pumping to 3000 psi, although the final 200 psi to get there takes almost full body weight on my Hill pump. Any guidance on pellets to try to achieve this would be appreciated, along with potential starting points for the adjustments (I don’t know where it is set right now – I do plan to check it out once I at least get the scope sighted in reasonably well with the Barracudas so that I can work with it).

    I suspect I will need to get it close to the final settings to find out the accuracy with the final pellet, correct?. Ideally I would like to get to a workable setting, find out which pellets it likes best for my use (which may not be the Barracuda since the fps would probably only be 750 or so) and then stock up for al the remaining testing and shooting. I do have a tin of Predators, 2.5 tins of Barracudas, about 250 of both 18.1 and 15.9 grain JSBs and a load of H&N FTT to start with, but clearly will need a lot more just to get things running right, let alone shoot with once set up correctly.

    Does anybody have and suggestions? I’d like to leverage the recent coupon from PA . . . .

    Alan in MI


    • Alan,

      first suggestion – use the cheapest pellets you can get your hands on for velocity testing and number of shots. You don’t care about accuracy for this type of testing – just try to get the weight of the cheap pellet close to the H & N’s that the rifle likes. Second, go read the Blog I did on re-tuning the Marauder – I give the screw turns and results I got (my rifle will give me 50+ pellets at 2,100 psi starting pressure with velocity around 825 fps plus or minus 25 or a 50 fps spread). Energy is low, however -14 ft. lbs., but as my rifle is a .177, I don’t intend to use it for hunting although it’s still capable at this energy level. Also, I only played with the hammer stroke and pre-load screws. I did not adjust the air volume screw located on the action underneath the stock. You might want to return that screw to stock settings if you think you’re exhausting too much air for what you intend to use the rifle for.

      Hope this helps a bit.

      Fred PRoNJ


      • Thanks Fred, that does help a lot, in that I did not know that I could use pretty much any pellet as a surrogate, as long as the weight is close. I had read your blog post before and enjoyed it very much, but it didn’t help me for a starting point since I’m want the best power and shot curve with the fill pressure as a variable.

        So I guess I’m stuck in having to guess which pellet weight range to use to meet my goals, so if anybody has any thoughts on how many good shots I could get with heavy Barracuda pellets, that would be good info to know. I know I could get there with pellets in the 14-15 grain range as Chuck suggests, but I don’t know how it would shoot with any of those. I was told it is good with the 18.1 grain JSBs, so that might be a good compromise.

        Thanks again.

        Alan in MI


    • Alan in MI

      I have a .22 Marauder that I have optimised for shooting medium-heavy pellets in the 16 to 18 grain weight range. My m-rod shoots well all the pellets you said you had already; the H&N FTT’s I havn’t tried yet. Another heavy one to consider is the JSB Monster 25.4 gr. Although not the most accurate in my gun they are fine for hunting @ 35 yrds or less. They have a good BC # so they will pack a punch. But, in your gun they may be golden. Also, they will load fine into my “unmodified” mags.

      The last time I checked I think my gun was at 29-30 FPE. When I was initially setting it up I used 15.9 gr. JSB’s to chrony test because I was going to use 16 gr. Predator Polymags in the field(almost same weight). The set screw adjustment on the valve I adjusted as “open” as I could set it. The other two adjustments for the hammer spring preload & hammer stroke I fiddled with until I got the fastest shot on my power curve to occur at 2500 psi and at a velocity I predetermined (which was around 950 fps with 15.9 gr. JSB’s). That way I could shoot from 3000 psi down to 2000 psi with a very even # of shots either side of my max. velocity. With either of those pellets I got 35 shots. The lowest was around 870 at both 2000 AND 3000 psi and the fastest around 950 at 2500 psi. If that sounds like a very wide spread from lowest to highest for MY hunting purposes it was not unless I was shooting more than 50 yards. At 30 yards I can shoot 3 clips in a row and hold a 5/8″ group.

      Later I did a little more formal long range accuracy testing (30-75 yards) and found the 18.1 gr. JSB’s to be the best with a slight edge over Kodiak/Baracuda’s. The weight of the 18.1 gr JSB’s is close enough in weight my shot count per fill is only 2 or 3 shots less.

      By the way I should mention my gun has not been tuned and has the factory valve in it.

      Also, the chrony I hadn’t used in several years since my tournament paintball days sure came in handy when setting up my m-rod. If you don’t have one yet, now’s the time when it will really help you.

      Hope this was helpfull.

      David H


      • David H.

        Fantastically helpful! That is exactly what I needed to know. I was afraid that working with anything heavier than about 15 g would prevent me from getting the number of shots I want. Thanks so much for this.

        Alan in MI


  10. Alan,
    I have the Marauder in .22 and at 10m it likes the boxed domed Crosman Premiers, 14.3gr. I tried the JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy, 18.1 but they were not as good as the Crosman Premiers. Perhaps at 20m they might make a difference, however, I did shoot the Premiers once at 50 yds and was pleased with the results.
    -Chuck


  11. Velocity looks good. Now for the accuracy….

    Victor, how is the level of elite shooting in California? Have all the gun laws impacted it? When I heard that I wouldn’t be able to mail order specialty target ammo for my Anschutz I really freaked, and avoiding that was a near thing.

    Lloyd, I hope you get your dues with access to the Marauder. Strange things happen to inventors. John C. Garand in the middle of WWII was refused a modest financial reward by Congress despite inventing a rifle that made a major contribution to victory. John Boyd was never invited to fly the F-16 that he virtually invented and which almost singlehandedly changed the balance of air power in the Cold War. But I suspect that Crosman is more responsive and thoughtful than either the Congress of the U.S. Air Force can be.

    Matt61


    • Matt61,

      I left southern CA 13 years ago, so I can’t speak of the current level of elite shooting that exist today, at least not in general. However, they’ve got some up and coming stars from the junior ranks. Also, the range that was used for all outdoor prone and 3 position tournaments, LAR@R is now USA Shooting Regional Training Center. In fact, they recently had a training seminar provided by the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit. You can learn more about this here – http://www.juniorshooters.com/ .
      LAR&R has weekly prone tournaments each Sunday.

      Victor


      • Victor, do you remember the Trap & Skeet range off the Pomona freeway near Whittier Narrows? I had heard that Pachmayr bought it and upgraded it into a full blown sporting-clays park including night shooting?

        I shot that range 30 years ago for $3 a round!


        • Brian,

          Yup! That range is right across the freeway from LAR&R, where I shot smallbore. What a small world! Actually, immediately across the freeway was a remote control airplane park that was right next to the smallbore range. It was all the same land.

          Victor


    • Also, regarding the purchase of ammo. Back in when I competed, we drove to Prescott AZ each year, to shoot the AZ State Championships, and buy our Eley ammo from George Stidworthy (The 1600 King). We would buy at least a years supply of ammo by the case (black and red). What a lot of shooters did was have someone attending the Nationals at Camp Perry buy a case or two at “Commercial Row”, where everything was sold. Commercial Row was (and probably still is) the best place to shop for guns and equipment, since you can actually see and hold whatever it is that you might be in the market for.

      If you want to experience Camp Perry, Commercial Row is a good reason.


    • Matt,
      I think BB might be shooting the Rogue before I will. I know there is a list of folks who will be trying it early. But hey, I got a Youtube video out of it and my 15 minutes of fame, so what more could I ask for? Just joking, of course. It’s a pleasure working with the Crosman folks.

      BTW, I noticed today that Crosman has put pricing out on the bullets they have slated for the Rogue. http://www.crosman.com/blogs/croswords/?p=1389#comments
      It’s down in the comments so you might have wait for it to load. The prices are better than I was expecting.
      Lloyd


      • Lloyd,
        It looks like a polymer tipped minie ball :). Seeing the driving bands, I wonder if the bolt fully engraves the bullet (i.e., the driving bands) before “firing” or does it just push it into something like a chamber, so that it has to be engraved on firing? Also, do you know the rifling rate?


        • BG,
          I really can’t tell too much because I really shouldn’t, plus I have not been able to study the final configuration, so I can’t. I think the final specs will be revealed before too long.
          I know the amount of initial engagement of the bullet into the rifling was being optimized by Crosman by shooting lots of rounds with different barrel configurations. The twist rate is appropriate for the range of velocities and the length of the bullet, and the 175gn is a Long bullet. A round ball only needs only about 1 in 48, and this is far from a round ball.
          The barrel is a custom just for the Rogue. Groove depth, land width, twist rate, and choke are all for air. This is not a warmed over PB barrel.
          Not too much info there, but I hope it helps a little.
          Lloyd


          • Lloyd,
            Thanks; I appreciate what you could tell me, and don’t violate any NDA’s on my account. I’m just curious, as is everyone else 🙂 — it looks like the first truly high-tech big bore airgun. I



    • Sure am, Frank! I have been here for a while, but only a minor comment contributor, always get caught up in soaking in the plethora of useful info here and by the time it all registers, I don’t always have too much to add:)


      • I can assure you this blog is hip deep in helpful intelligent airgunners! That being said,they haven’t run me off yet.I used to bookmark to keep track of stuff to remember…..ended up with every day bookmarked! ….Anyway,your package is in the mail.



        • Thanks Brian. Interested in everything about this hobby, but particular in 10m Air Pistol. Been shooting a Gamo Compact the most as of right now because I have not found a compromise between what I will allow myself to afford and what I want:) I am pretty sure I am too old for the Olympics (HA!) so I am not sure if I will every buy that Steyr. Was thinking about a Drulov DU-10, but for how much I shoot, I think I will need a PCP. IZH-46m’s have been sold out at PA for a while now, and I not sure I want the 46 non-m on the used market that I found. Have had a lot of experience with the Daisy 7xx’s and I love them, but I just don’t take them as a true 10m pistol, I am NO Nygord with any of mine (although Frank’s might change that:) But I do know that I have outgrown the Compact as my scores suffer after 35-40 shots because of the cocking effort. Not that I am really tired, but that is how I take it, as I shoot pretty consistently with other pistols like the 7xx’s and Gas guns, but I have shot my best scores with the Compact, so I stick with that until I get something better. Any suggestions on a 10m pistol?

          Also interested in the 22xx crosman platform and disco’s. Have not bought a disco yet, the only reason being that the awesome Mike from TKO is about 3 miles from me and I am afraid of getting too into hotrodding the crosmans and not have enough energy (read: time and money) left over for my 10m pistol shooting!


  12. I’m just considering a whole bunch of options here, but which pistols(C02, multi-pump, single-stroke, ect.) is very accurate that’s under $60? How about the Daisy Powerline 15XT? Daisy Powerline 617X? Smith & Wesson M&P Black? Crosman 357? What’s the accuracy like on all those????

    Sorry for all the questions, but I kinda want to do my research.

    Thanks,
    Conor


    • From my limited experience, the Beeman P17 is the only thing that could really be considered ACCURATE that is under $60, in my opinion. I have only shot one, never owned one, they seemed alright, especially for the price, but $60 and accurate do not really go together. I would look for a used Daisy 717 on the Yellow.



    • Toby T

      As people reply to a comment, each reply is indented. The more replies to a comment, the closer the replies come to the right hand side of the page. That is why the paragraph got strung out vertically. When there is no space left, it stops giving the option to reply to that comment.


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