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Ammo Benjamin Rogue ePCP – a new way of making airguns: Part 4

Benjamin Rogue ePCP – a new way of making airguns: Part 4

by B.B. Pelletier

Announcement: Here’s this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 gift card.

He’s training with his KJW Beretta M9 CO2 blowback airsoft pistol — with his weak side to practice ambidextrous shooting.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

The Rogue is a whole new way of making airguns.

When we last left the Rogue, it was shooting groups on the range. Let’s return there today and learn some more of the rifle’s features.

We’ve discussed how the shooter can program the rifle for three bullet weight ranges (100, 145 and 170 grains) and three power levels (low, medium and high). Let’s look at some other things the shooter can do with the power of the gun. For example, if high power just isn’t enough, you can program the Discharge power setting. It’s above the High power setting and was explained to me by Ed Schultz of Crosman as the number 11 on a rock-band amplifier that tops out at 10.

The Discharge setting tells the valve to remain open twice as long as the High power setting for that bullet. Think of it as the analog setting that takes the Rogue back into the world of big bore airguns with mechanical valves. It wastes some air, but it gives you the absolute last word in power, considering the air pressure that remains in the reservoir. So, of course, I tried it!

It turned out to be not as dramatic as it sounded, though I may not have tried it at the place in the pressure curve where it works the best. I had just fired three shots on high power with the Nosler 145-grain bullet, and I had a very nice group starting to form downrange. With the air pressure dropping off, I thought I would boost the power to the discharge setting and shoot the fourth shot at that level to stay in the same group. Here’s what happened:


After these three shots, there was 2,447 psi remaining in the reservoir, so I boosted the power to the Discharge setting and fired the next shot.


Following that shot, 2,197 psi remained in the reservoir. That one shot on the Discharge setting used 250 psi and gave a slightly higher velocity (767, compared to 756 f.p.s.) than the previous high-power shot that had used 99 psi (2546 – 2447).

Complete user manual valve control
You also have the option of controlling the valve yourself. In that case, all programming is suspended. The valve simply remains open as long as you tell it to. Let me differentiate this from how the gun normally works.

The Rogue usually operates by sensing the air pressure remaining in the reservoir and calculating how long the valve needs to remain open, given the bullet weight you’ve selected and the power level you’re trying to achieve. As the air pressure decreases, the valve dwell time (the amount of time the valve remains open) increases to accommodate your selected performance.

When you override the programming by telling the valve how long to remain open, everything else goes out the window. The valve simply remains open that long. You might do this because you’re testing the gun’s performance with a certain bullet and think you can get a better result than the one automatically selected by the software. The dwell time can be manually controlled in increments of five microseconds. A microsecond is one-millionth of a second. It takes 1,000 microseconds to equal one millisecond. If the display reads 2000 microseconds, it means the valve will remain open for exactly 2 milliseconds.

The heart of the beast
Your next choices for time from 2000 microseconds (either longer or shorter) would be 2005 microseconds or 1995 microseconds. These are incredibly short time intervals that give you a lot of control over the valve. For those with a scientific or engineering bent, you’re now looking into the very reason why the Rogue is such a different air rifle. Other big bore valves, when they close, flutter in time increments greater than the intervals at which you can control in this rifle. That is to say — when they close, they can bounce open and closed rapidly several times before the valve closes completely. The Rogue doesn’t do that. It’s either open or it’s closed, and either you or the software controls how long it remains open to a very exacting degree.

Accuracy improvement
There’s simply too much for me to tell you about the Rogue, even in a series of reports, but I know that everyone is interested in its accuracy. Remember the group I mentioned above, where I was shooting a Nosler 145-grain bullet and wanted to keep the velocity in the same place? That was the one where I set shot four to the Discharge setting to keep the velocity stable. Please look at the group I got with that approach.

Three tight shots at 50 yards with the Nosler 145-grain lead bullet. Shot four was with the rifle in the Discharge setting. Though it traveled just as fast as shot three, it strayed outside the tight group.

I also did very well with a 95-grain hollowpoint lead bullet Crosman sent me to test. On Low and Medium power, this bullet was a real tackdriver at 50 yards.

This 95-grain hollowpoint lead bullet is one of the most accurate bullets tried thus far.

Three tight shots and then a stray on shot four.

I said before that there’s not enough time left in my life to test this rifle thoroughly. But it’s proven interesting for the approximately 150 shots I’ve been able to shoot thus far. As far as conserving air, I started this test with a full 88-cubic-foot carbon fiber air tank, and it’s still able to fill the rifle to 3,000 psi, so this gun is getting far more shots per fill than any other big bore I’ve ever tested.

However, the progress on the Rogue has not ceased. The engineers at Crosman are still refining the algorithms in the software for even better air conservation. While the gun I’m now testing uses about 90 psi per shot, Crosman now has their testbed rifle using only 50 psi per shot. They’re getting 26 shots at a nominal 100 foot-pounds of muzzle energy (actually 84 to 112 foot-pounds) from 2,360 psi down to 1,098 psi. And they didn’t stop with just that.

The 170-grain bullet is delivering seven solid shots ranging from 196 foot-pounds down to 156 foot-pounds. No other big bore airgun in history has done that! Yes, the Asian 9mm rifles will give eight or nine powerful shots, but the spread of power is considerably greater than what the Rogue is now doing.

By the time they finally release the Rogue, it should be as bulletproof and exciting as it possibly can be. There’s one more thing I want you to think about.

The rifle I’m now testing is one of five pre-production prototype guns Crosman built. This gun has now been fired thousands of times. It has flown on numerous airplanes and has harvested game from around the U.S.A. ranging from 200-lb. wild pigs to gray foxes. It’s been in the hands of dozens of different shooters and, through it all, it still works. That’s as good a recommendation as I can give for any new air rifle.

The future
I believe what Crosman should do is alter the software to allow the owner to program two different shooting programs of his own. This is similar to what can be done with a top-end metal detector or digital camera. The owners will test several bullets and valve dwell times and learn how many shots they can expect from their version of Custom 1 and Custom 2. Talk about making handloading popular!

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

136 thoughts on “Benjamin Rogue ePCP – a new way of making airguns: Part 4”

  1. Wow – incredible. Thanks for all the detail, B.B..

    This report should help quell some of the naysayers who insist that the Rogue is nothing more than a big tactical Daystate MCT knock-off. There is nothing about a solenoid hammer striking a SOKO valve that even remotely compares to what you’ve described as the Rogue’s capabilities.

    Lloyd – I have to commend you on much more than just your design. Though there have been numerous attempts to discredit you and minimize your accomplishments, I have not once seen you lose your cool and fire back. All you ever say is (paraphrased), “Believe me, there is nobody who would like to tell you more about the way this gun operates than me, and I will spill the beans as soon as I get a thumbs up.” Contract or no, bravo for your tact and amazing self-restraint.

    I cannot believe that this very Rogue has been fired thousands of times and has been flown all around the country, and that this is the first comprehensive report we have to sink our teeth into. Sure you get paid to do it, B.B., but still… thank you. I wait with bated breath for each new installment. Please make this one of those 17-part series. 🙂

    – Orin

    • Orin,
      Thank you for the kind words. Yes, there are some passionate naysayers out there, and that is fine so long as their objections are fact based, which unfortunately is often not the case. But this is brand new technology, and we all know what brand new means.

      Orin, you are exactly right when you say I’d like to spill my guts on this, you bet. Yes, come to my house and we’ll strip one of my prototypes down to a pile of unidentifiable parts and pieces. Even look at the SW code and try some different things. Swap some different caliber barrels. Of course, my protos and code and such are not identical to the Rogue because Crosman has done a tremendous amount of work getting it to a truly manufacturable state. But the concepts are identical.

      • NAY ! NAY ! NAY I SAY ! Wait a minute…..I already did.

        Show me something half way between an R7 and an R9 in size, weight, and power. That might get my attention.

        I just had to do that.


        • TT,
          I like that. Somebody a few reports asked you why you had no use for a Rogue and you gave a nice list of valid reasons. In my opinion, you are one of the “good” naysayers! LOL

  2. 50 psi to move a large bore bullet? Inconceivable! I don’t see how there are any nay sayers left when it comes to the Rogue. This is one bad a$$ machine.

    Maybe you don’t have any use for a big bore. I don’t. Maybe you prefer to keep things simple. I do. But the potential for different applications of this design are mind boggling. Its like the space program. Maybe you have no need to travel outside the earth’s atmosphere, but look at all the technological benefits we have all reaped from the space program, such as … Tang!

    When epic technology finds its way into small bore rifles or shotguns, I am going to be in there like swim wear.

    One last thought: the Rogue looks like a Marauder and an IZH 61 had a love child.

    • S.L. – No doubt, one bad mother. Kudos to Crosman for continuing to solicit feedback and make improvements on a product that many other companies would otherwise be rushing to the market. That says a lot.

      B.B. – Your idea about custom programs is a great one. The interface provides for so much user control that it would be a shame not to have the ability to save the customizations that resulted from hours and hours of tweaking.

      Shoot, with custom programs and software updates from Crosman, we’d be just around the corner from uploading/sharing our user-defined Rogue parameters, Facebook style.

      C’mon, Lloyd. We know you’re on the Rogue II development team. Stop holding back.

      – Orin

  3. RE: User Program

    Agreed that would be sweet. But it seems that the adjustment cycle needs to be a bit different. It seems to me that you should select some desired muzzle velocity, then encode in the rifle what the muzzle velocity actually measures with the chrony. The microprocessor would then calculate the time-pressure curve to give you what you want. This would seem to be one PCP where a chrony should be part of the kit!

    The problem of course is that it isn’t just the weight of the projectile. You have to consider at what point the projectile breaks free and starts to move, and you need to consider the friction down the barrel. So the microprocessor would need to calculate two or three constants more to fit the power curve for the dwell time that the valve would need to be open. Maybe something like:

    t = a + b*pressure + c*pressure^2

    where t is time for valve and a,b, and c are fitted constants. “Pressure” as measured by the rifle.

    With the ability to manually control the time open, you could play around with what equations would work. It would take quite a bit of testing, but it seems tractable.


    • Herb,
      Some good thoughts on the variables associated with the projectile…the internal ballistics. But there are also the variables associated with the pneumatics and mechanicals of the airgun as the reservoir pressure runs from max to min. Modeling that is quite a challenge. A fun challenge, that is.

      • Well, actually it would seem that the equation should be of form:
        t = a + b/pressure + c/pressure^2
        That way as pressure drops the value of t would go up. A empirical equation of the “right form” would tend to need fewer constants, but just brute forcing a fit isn’t bad either. Just fiddle around with a couple of equations and see what fits best.

        • Herb, trust me, I’ve done all the math. Your idea of applying some correction factors/constants is ok to a point. Force on the projectile decreases as the projectile traverses the barrel and the reservoir volume expands. Then after the valve closes, whether it be a hammer valve or the valve in the Rogue, the residual pressure in the barrel decreases at different rate as acceleration continues. Those forces are easy to calculate. But the initial offset and a multitude of other variables are neither linear nor do they lend themselves to accurate modeling. The theory holds to a point, but in the end, its theory vs practice.

          • Lloyd,

            Trust you!?!

            I’m awed!!!

            The Rogue never would have happened without all of your hard work. We all want to peek behind the curtain to truly appreciate the genius that we know is there.


        • Besides a pair of sensors at the end of the barrel for velocity computation, one could use the valve-sensor time for an estimate of acceleration (granted, just an estimate as it ignores the time it takes to overcome static friction and actually start the projectile moving).

          No nasty primer/powder residue, so optical sensors at the muzzle should work nicely… Just seal them against the odd cleaning compound…

  4. This air rifle is going to revolutionize air gunning.

    I would not be surprised to see an eMarauder in the near future. The FT shooters will snatch them up!

    And just think what would happen if Crossman decided to use this technology and build a top of the line 10 meter rifle!

  5. B.B.,
    Thanks very much for this report. You’ve done an excellent job of explaining the complexities and possibilities of this airgun. I think most folks with a little bit of exposure to software have the wheels turning in their head right now.
    Best regards,

    • Wheels turning???
      I don’t have much software exposure yet the wheels are spinning madly!
      I’m having USB port and downloadable software dreams, I’m having smaller caliber and smaller package supported thru smart phone app tunability. If you can hook it up via a cable (or bluetooth or Wi-Fi) there is no reason why you couldn’t hook it to a program like chairgun or programs like that.
      You could check certain power or program options when ordering the rifle.
      The possibilities are endless.

      I know you don’t like to compare one rifle to another but since we’re talking hypothetically here, I would like to know how would a technology like this compare price and performance wise to a regulated rifle in a smaller caliber. Could the electonic valve save more air? Could it do more shots? Could the fps be closer to that of a regulated rifle?

      Any R&D job openings at Crosman?


      • J-F,

        You’re right. all sorts of ways to build a feedback loop to improve performance for a particular bullet.

        In regards to the job at Crosman – I agree. It would be a hoot.

        I think we all are drooling over the possibility in a smaller caliber. With more of a mass market, the expectation would be that the price would come down as the volume went up. With the proper tweaking I’d think that a 0.22 could be just as steady as a regulated rifle. The problem is that there are more than a hundred different 0.22 pellets/bullets. You’d need a better interface than the rifle display to control all the options. Loading via USB or a cable seem like great ideas.

        • “The problem is that there are more than a hundred different 0.22 pellets/bullets. You’d need a better interface than the rifle display to control all the options.”

          That’s where a smart phone or downloadable programming comes in play or an interface using a chairgun like program. It could be done with a USB cable or a removable memory… you simply label the cards with each program like this:
          Card-1 : would be programmed for target shooting using not too heavy wadcutters and the valve would shoot out the pellets around the 500fps (or whatever is optimal for the precision of said pellets).
          Card-2 : would be for small pest elimination with a heavier pellet shooting at around 800fps.
          Card-3 : could be balls to the walls full speed mayhem.

          You could have a number of SD cards or programs loaded on your phone or computer…

          Ford recently release Boss Mustang with two keys, one black “regular” key and one red “performance” key (they call it the TracKey) that alters over 200 parameters for the car. That’s the fun part of computer controlled things. My wife turbo passat was chip tuned with a simple laptop and program, 30hp for 80$… pretty cheap.
          The same kind of performance could be achieve with this.

          You’ll send an email to your favorite tuner saying what you want, paypal him the money and he’ll email you a custom tune specially made just for you and voilà, brand new rifle with even getting up from your comfy chair (or wherever you sit down to use your computer).

          Or what about this scenario, in the case of a smart phone app you could be at the range or even in the field and spot a larger than predicted prey or you’re not happy with the way it’s behaving, you charge the tune right there on your phone, send it to the rifle via bluetooth and you rifle is freshly tune for the new task at hand.

          Did I already told how wonderful I think this thing is? I’m like a over-excited giggling school girl when I think about this thing.

          There’s no way I’m paying 1500$ (or even half that) on this rifle (and it would be illegal here thanks to the shroud anyways) but a smaller caliber fully tunable smaller caliber one… COUNT ME IN.

          There’s also the availability of locking a tune for the U.K. or Canadian market where you would simply enter the weight of the pellet and the rifle wouldn’t allow the pellet to shoot over the limit, you could squeeze out every little last drop of performance out of the rifle.

          The more I think about it, the more I find new use for this system.


          • J-F,
            Does your wife know you are getting this excited about an airgun? Yikes!
            A general comment to all, J-F is younger than most of us, does Facebook and all that other absurd stuff (he knows I’m kidding), but he’s certainly not a kid. I had to learn to text on my phone to talk to my 30 year old kids. They are of a generation that not only embraces the capability that microprocessors can provide, they actually EXPECT it. This electronics stuff is a big paradigm shift for most of us, and may seem scary and unnecessary, but paintball has had very sophisticated electronics for over 15 years. I mean amazing technology. Many of those folks are going to be transitioning into guns that you don’t point at each other. Think they’ll be leery of electronics? Doubt it.
            J-F, keep the ideas coming.

            • Of course she doesn’t know how excited I am about this!!!
              I’m 34 and I have 2 kids and I have a laptop and iPhone that I could hardly live without and I had to show my mother how to text me and if she still had a VCR she call me to know how to program it.
              It’s also why I’m the only one to have an avatar, I’m not a wiz but most of my computer skills were mostly self tought and I’m curious by nature and I like to explore so a few clicks later… I have nice zombie hunter avatar.

              Pyramyd AIR came out with the “Airgun Wizard” for android phones and it should be out for the iPhone soon.

              I had no idea paintball had this kind of technology (good thing, as I would probably have spent too much money there) as I never was much into paintball.


                • Sorry,
                  I meant I was the only non-staff person to have one.

                  When I saw the avatars I couldn’t help it, I didn’t want to wait for the instructions I wanted it NOW (which I’ll admit is a problem of my and younger generations, we want everything right away) so I looked everywhere and in a few clicks I found where the avatars came from, made an account, searched around for a pic that would fit the format and tada… I too had an avatar.

                  BTW I found the avatars great and they make things a lot easier when looking for a particular comment.


        • In regards to an small caliber application & needing to load pellet data. All it would need is a mirco SD card slot with cover like on cell phones.

  6. Valve dwell self programmable in milliseconds?! Wow.If they currently have a .357 using only 50psi per shot…….imagine the performance in other calibers.This is just so hugely impressive Lloyd.This refines bigbore shooting so much I’m in awe.The “old way”,which I’m sure it will soon be called,is truly stoneage in comparison.I can picture a .25 version,with something like a smoothtwist barrel….shooting all week off a buddy bottle fill.

    • No, BB said that the Rogue was programmable to 5 microseconds. That is 1/200th of a millisecond. More impressed?

      A microsecond is nothing for electronics, but to get a mechanical valve responding so quickly to such small timing intervals is really impressive.


  7. Can I ask,if the valve dwell is self programmed……does the valve use that setting in it’s programming
    and continue adjusting according to tank pressure? Very nice groups with the 95gr bullets,BTW.

  8. Hello, all, first post after lurking for a while. I’m recently back to air gunning after a couple of decade break. I’ve had a lot to catch up on. I’m a computer engineer and I love embedded programming on microcontrollers, so the Rogue has really caught my attention.

    I’ve sort of got a suggestion that ties into the idea of adding custom settings to the gun. Why not go the logical route and add a chronometer attachment to the muzzle (heck, you could build one into the barrel if you were clever) and let the gun figure things out? Just tell it bullet mass, load it, aim down range, hit “learn” and let it cycle some rounds through. I’m not sure what processor they’re using, but there are so many available these days that would have no difficulty handling the calculations necessary for this.

    Once you have a microcontroller in there, a chrono is only two more photo diodes in the right place. Bonus points if you don’t even have to enter the bullet mass because it calculates it by ‘seeing’ the length as it flys by the chrono sensors. 🙂 You’d need some pretty good timing resolution for that, but nothing that would stress a modern microcontroller.

    I can’t wait to see this design applied to a more useful (to me) caliber. .22 or .25 would be wonderful.

    • Willmore,

      Welcome to the blog.

      Actually an onboard chrono was discussed from the beginning. The learning benefits you cite were clear to everyone. I think they didn’t add it to keep the cost down.

      I wouldn’t be surprised to see it added in the future.


      • Actually an onboard chrono was discussed from the beginning. The learning benefits you cite were clear to everyone. I think they didn’t add it to keep the cost down.

        I wouldn’t be surprised to see it added in the future.

        The engineers should have done what happened at Chrysler in the early 80s. The bean-counters wanted a 3-speed MANUAL! transaxle 2.2L Plymouth Horizon chassis (which grew into the Turismo 2.2 “sports coupe”)

        Engineers persuaded them that a 4-speed was needed.

        Engineers then designed a four-speed that used a simple flat sheet-metal end-cap… When the Turismo 2.2 design came up, they were able to convert the 4-speed into a 5-speed by inserting longer gear shafts that extended out, slid the fifth gear set onto splines on said shafts, extended the shift linkage over to access the synchro, and bolt on a larger end-cap.

        So… The Rogue should have a set of electrical contacts running along the forearm/barrel, unused at the moment, but which would permit adding chronograph sensor unit to the end in a minor revision of the stock/muzzle…

  9. The guy in the Pyramyd AIR Big Shot face book pic up at the top looks just like a very good friend of mine at work named Billy P. He loves hunting and fishing and got to take a few air-only shots (yup, no dry-fire issues with the Rogue) when I had a Rogue in my posession a while back. As a serious powder burner guy, he was pretty excited about the Rogue. Didn’t want to give it back to me! Told me he’d keep it safe.

  10. This Rogue just keeps getting more exciting. It may be far fetched, but if this could be retrofitted into a Bronco style PCP… I’m serious, I’m not trying to be funny. I was so elated many years ago when computer power started doubling every two years. Wouldn’t it be neat if airgun technology started doubling every two years, now, because of Lloyds pride and joy?

    Oh, and one thing, Lloyd, make sure Crosman puts a USB connector somewhere in the dang thing! I’d love to be able to play what-ifs on my computer and download them to my Rogue.

  11. I have an interest in tactical weapons…eventually when the boys are a bit older I want to purchase some powderburners in addition to the airguns (which I’ll never give up).
    Last night I received in the mail the latest edition of ‘Tactical Weapons’. In it was small piece by R. Lee Emery…the marine gunnery sgt who played himself in Full Metal Jacket.
    Anyway…he talks about air guns, and how great they are for certain aspects of firearms training…especially this http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=889516&cat=558&page=1
    Wow…if it weren’t for the price ($1850) I’d order one in a second.
    He says he bought two of them.
    Gotta admit…it was nice seeing someone of his stature (in the military/powderburner fields) proclaiming the use of air rifles.

  12. Wow! Truly incredible! And also very sad! My state (Missouri) requires an air gun to be at least 40 caliber to use it for big game hunting. So deer hunting with it is out.

    No restrictions at all for feral hogs as far as limit, season (all year), caliber of gun nor ANY other restrictions except you can not take them on private land without the land owner’s permission! Only problem is I have no clue where to take feral hogs or what to do after I shoot one. No idea how to field dress em nor process the meat after.

    Nor as far as I know is there any restriction for smaller “big game” such as foxes, wolves, coyotes, raccoons, ground hogs or similar game.

    The other restriction is that it is too heavy to put a decent scope on it and then have me carry it in the woods all day!

    So if Crosman would make this in 40 caliber and at least 1.5 # lighter it would go in my gun safe and be used for hunting.

    BB, do you think you can convince them to do this?

    • Ooops, just popped over to the Crosman site and found that they need to knock at LEAST 3 # off the weight. Also it is listed at a budget breaking $1500 for gun, scope, mounts and bi-pod!!!

      My best bet would be if one of my “more money than brains” friends buys one and lets me shoot it!

      Or maybe I can win the lottery, buy one, and have a completely custom titanium stock made for it?

  13. B.B.

    I came across an interesting article, to me anyway, a couple days ago comparing the ballistics of lever action rifles in .357mag and .30-30. The test used a Marlin 1894C with an 18″ barrel in .357. To give us something to base the results on the base line guns used were a S&W686 with 4″ barrel and a Winchester Trapper in .30-30 with a 16.5″ barrel. Two points I would like to make, first most of us already know a longer barrel will give better velocity. Secondly, none of the .357 rounds really gave the .30-30 any real competition. I think the .30-30 round was used to give us something for comparison.

    The results were never the less interesting. One of the rounds a 125gr JHP in the pistol had a velocity of over 1400 fps and around 550 ft-lb of energy. But in the carbine the .357 round’s velocity increased to just over 2000 fps and more impressive the energy nearly doubled to more than 1100 ft-lbs. That 1100 ft-lbs number is approaching the energy of a .223 round out of a rifle. Even lower powered .357 and .38 special rounds showed impressive results out of the carbine.

    The .30-30 carbine produced energy of 1500 ft-lbs plus with most of the loads used.

    I know even in a carbine the .357 round is for short range shooting (less than 100 yards), but even 25 yards is longer than most people think.

    So what does this have to do with airguns. Until I started really getting interested in airguns a few years ago I would have dismissed most of the article hands down. Shooting airguns and understanding a 14.3 grain pellet traveling at 600 fps produces 11.43 ft-lbs of energy, but the same pellet traveling to 800 fps results in energy of 20.33 ft-lbs gets one to start looking at things differently. Dealing with airguns has made me think more about velocity, energy, projectile size and weight, and barrel length than I ever did before. I’m even considering the weather more, when the temp started regularly getting above 70 I thought it’s time to break out the co2 guns.


    • I have a .357 / 38 Special Winchester 92 copy and it is a real hoot to shoot. the other HUGE upside over a 30/30 is that indoor rages will allow the .357 / .38 but not a 30/30 Winchester.

      Also bulk ammo is sometimes available, not to the degree of 5.56 but it is out there.

      Depending on the number of zombies attacking I would possibly grab it over my Mini 14.

        • B.B.

          I was real close to pulling the trigger on a reloader when suddenly the local gun shop was flush with inexpensive ammo again. I can get brass 5.56 ammo for under $6.00 for a box of 20 and .357 is also pretty cheap by the case.

          I know you said reloading would be like printing your own money in the new economy, but I had a uncle that got 7 to 10 for that in the ’70’s….

  14. I look forward to reading these “Rogue Reports” whenever they come out. Such an interesting subject. Now I really can’t wait for this tech to “trickle down” to small bores (.25 and under) But most of all, I hope this rifle has a smooth roll out, with no “teething pain” like past projects. That would just play into the hands of all the naysayers, and luddites if there were problems in the initial release.

    • Well, the RWS 46 was my first spring piston rifle and probably has the most pellets down the barrel of all the airguns I own. I find it a very accurate rifle although a step below (but just barely) the Beeman R9 or my RWS 52. It’s now able to generate around 15 ft. lbs of energy with the right pellet (H & N’s or RWS Super H’s I have found to be the most accurate for me) which is good enough for hunting.

      Cocking effort is moderate. Here is a review containing some comments on the RWS 46


      and here’s BB’s review done back in 2005


      Fred PRoNJ

  15. Edith,

    Is the cocking effort shown for the HW50S really just 18 pounds, same as for the HW30S? Seems wrong for a bigger, heavier, supposedly more powerful rifle.

    And what a disappointment: A nice Father’s Day coupon from PA in my Inbox today but then it’s disallowed when I tried to buy this gun with it…


    • AlanL,

      I’ll have to look into the cocking effort. Not sure where that came from. Maybe from an old Beeman catalog.

      Pyramyd AIR is forbidden by certain mfrs from offering discount coupons on certain products. You’ll notice that AirForce, Beeman, Falcon, Air Arms, some Crosman guns and others don’t allow coupons.


      • Edith,

        But seems it’s not across the board for all Weihrauch guns. On another note, in the ‘Featured’ section of PA’s site it shows the HW30S, but on the product page for that amazing rifle it shows ‘Discontinued’!!! Not ‘Out of Stock’ but Discontinued!! I’m in shock. Can this really be??


        • AlanL,

          I removed it from the featured products page. I also removed another gun that was discontinued. Sorry. I’m supposed to maintain that page, but I haven’t had enough time to do it.

          So, the HW30S is discontinued. Sorry!


          • Edith

            If I may, why is Pyramyd AIR discontinuing the HW30S? I suppose it must come down to sales volume. That is a real shame. If a person owns more than one airgun, the HW30S should be one of them IMHO. It’s a classic.

            • SL,

              When they don’t know if they’re going to get a product again, they often take it offline instead of taking back orders. The purchasing dept. has decided to order more HW models, and I’ve asked them if they’re going to get the HW30S again. I should get an answer on Tuesday & will post what they tell me. Actually, I asked them to give me a list of all new HW guns they’re going to import so I can cover all bases, not just the one about the HW30S.

              Besides low sales volume, products are discontinued for other reasons (and many of these do not apply to HW guns…it’s just a general list of reasons):

              1. Poor quality resulting in excessive returns.
              2. Unexpectedly low/poor performance.
              3. Mfr. is changing something significant & wants to deplete current stock so there’s no mixing of old & new stock.

              For a fuller explanation of why reason No. 3 is important, see my previous comment about the pitfalls of NOT discontinuing a product and the nightmare of ending up with a mix of old & new styles being shipped.


    • AlanL,

      The HW50S is about 30 lbs to cock. The number they have in place hails back to the old HW50S that has not been made in ages.
      The reality is you might as well get an R9 \ HW 95 and have the power to show for all your effort.

      • Thanks Volvo– it is disheartening to realize that so much of the specification information on PA’s website is erroneous, when purchasing decisions are based on it. Cocking effort is a prime example, and velocity specs are so often misleading that one should in principle never rely on them. I think it is a shame that PA, a leader in this market and with its own testing facility, priding itself on being a leader in education in this field (witness this blog), does not trouble itself to proof manufacturer’s claims more assiduously. Velocity is my pet peeve: Why not publish muzzle energy instead, a far more significant and respectable spec?

        • Alan,
          Yes, it would be nice if all of the information and secs were 100% accurate, but given the thousands of products that Pyramyd offers, I’d say their accuracy is close to 99%. They start with the info provided by the manufacturer and validate from there on a time-available effort. And if you let them know of a problem with a spec, they will fix it right away.
          Regarding velocities, they again start with the manufacturer’s specs, which are most always done with PBA, and they validate from there as time and situations allow. A velocity without a pellet weight is not too useful. Some of the guns do list FPE, which I agree can be a more valid number. but that still varies with pellet weight.

          Some sites only provide a link to the mfgrs site, so I think Pyramyd does a darn good job.

          • Lloyd,

            No doubt you are right, and I was being a bit harsh, as is my wont. Those who know me for longer on this blog know that I like to stir the hornet’s nest on occasion. CSD for instance doesn’t like that at all. Now, what do you think of my suggestion about publishing only ME when known? Then the pellet used wouldn’t matter, or matter less. I like accuracy and transparency in specs to the extent possible, and velocity is a prime obfuscator of same. PA as a leader in this field should promote this standard, and challenge the manufacturers/vendors to supply this data honestly, wouldn’t you agree?


            • AlanL,

              Know why the mfrs report high velocities and why they use lightweight pellets?

              Most people who buy airguns are looking for the fastest, most powerful gun there is (we’ve heard it so many times that it’s become a joke around our house).

              If a mfr does NOT advertise a gun at the highest possible velocity, they open themselves up to lawsuits if there ever should be an accident.

              Even if the gun’s actual velocity is shown, that’s not good enough when you get sued.

              Regarding the last point, I present the following real case: A mfr got sued because a gun’s velocity was shown to be very low. Yet, it was the correct/actual velocity. Someone got shot with the gun (“accidentally”). As part of the settlement, they’re now forced to advertise an absurd higher velocity. The gun can’t reach that velocity, but that’s irrelevant to the participants in the case.


              • That is as good an example of how screwed up our legal system is in this ridiculously litigious society as anything I have ever heard. However, from the small remnant of trust in reason that I still have, I can’t imagine that anybody that rests their case on the fact that they have published the TRUTH should not ultimately prevail. Muzzle energy is the one criterion that covers all the bases, and if I publish the highest possible value from any experimental shot string I couldn’t go wrong… right?

        • AlanL,

          The velocity is an age old issue that goes back to what pellet is used for testing and lube condition of the rifle at the time. A dry spring is faster and a squirt of 3 and 1 oil in the chamber will work wonders. In a nutshell, just expect less than what is stated. In that way we are like women in the bedroom with a new partner, it really never lives up to the stated hype.

          Interestingly, HW’s actual catalog and web site are spot on with about a 7 grain pellet.

          On the other hand, the cocking effort is a certainly not excusable.

        • One last velocity example for you: Beeman rates the R7 at 700 fps, yet HW rates the HW30S at 190 meters per second which equals 623 feet per second. Now assuming you don’t believe a different stock or the Beeman stamp make the rifle shoot faster, who do you believe is gilding the lily?

        • AlanL,

          I don’t think there’s a lot of erroneous information listed on the specs. I’ll be the first to admit that the Pyramyd AIR website has errors in it, but so does every other website. I think you’ve overstated the situation by a mile and a half. And I speak from rich personal experience.

          Mistakes happen, but don’t let that lead you to the conclusion that there are “lots” of errors. There may be some, but the vast and overwhelming majority of products have accurate info.

          The guns would be even more expensive than they are now if we had to test them with different pellets & to get the muzzle energy for all of them. How many people do you think that would take to do for each model & caliber? And which pellets would you choose? You have no idea how many times people have written PA and asked us to test every gun we have with 10 or so different pellets. Yeah, right. Let’s tack an additional $100 onto the price of the gun for that service. How’s that gonna fly?

          Just as soon as we verify every single spec, the manufacturer changes the gun, doesn’t tell anyone (and that’s a whole different story that makes my head spin around twice & fly off into orbit) and we’re selling guns that are significantly different than the last batch.

          The number of manufacturer changes that we find out AFTER the gun is sold is really sad. I’m sure you’re probably thinking to yourself that it would be easy enough to open gun boxes received and look at them. Yeah, we could do that (and increase the price of every product!), but we already get complaints when the tape on a box has broken due to jostling during shipping, and people think they’ve gotten a used gun!

          Sometimes, we have this scenario (try to follow along, because it gets real confusing real fast):

          1. Model A is made, shipped & stocked at PA.
          2. Mfr changes model A before PA sells out of its current stock but doesn’t tell anyone, doesn’t change its website, doesn’t change the owner’s manual & doesn’t change the model ID number used for ordering.
          3. PA orders more of model A.
          4. Model A is rec’d and shelved.
          5. Customer receives Model A & says it has a different scope than what we advertised.
          6. We open several boxes & find out that we have model A with the scope originally included with the gun and also some with another scope that they appear to now be including with the gun. We ask the mfr if the scope replacement is permanent, temporary or a mistake. Sometimes they answer and sometimes they don’t.
          7. We segment the stock so that model A with the first scope is the only one pulled off the shelf. When it’s gone, model A with the replacement scope is put on the shelf and the web page is changed.
          8. More replenishment stock is rec’d & shelved.
          9. Customer calls & says he got a different scope AND mount than what we show online.
          10. We open several boxes and realize we have 4 different versions of the same gun: One has the original gun with the original scope & a 2-pc mount. Another has the original gun with the replacement scope & a 2-pc mount. The third has the original gun with the original scope and 1-pc mount. A fourth has the original gun with the replacement scope and a 1-pc mount.

          If you think the above is totally absurd, then I’m sorry to have to tell you that this was/is an actual & real situation that happened/is happening with a real mfr. That’s what it’s like to run a large warehouse filled with products that could change at any time.

          You can’t stop ordering from mfrs that act like that because then you’d have to get rid of almost every mfr and you’d be out of business. This is a constant and real issue, so you just deal with it & stay vigilant.

          I’m guessing people who have retail businesses unrelated to airguns probably have the same problems. Because of that, I no longer become upset when I get a product I ordered that’s different than what’s advertised or shown on the box. I know it’s a mess out there, and mfrs are to blame. Many still think the customer buys in a local store. They don’t realize the biggest store is on the internet & people MUST depend on what’s printed on their monitors because they can’t inspect the product before making a purchase.

          Wow! It feels real good to get that off my chest!


          • Edith,

            Indeed, I begin to realize that it is a tall order to have all published info be spot on. As I admitted to Lloyd, I was too harsh. I for one am one of those who very much frowns at getting a resealed box. I much prefer a virgin and in light of what you just explained am now much more prepared to take my chances and enjoy whatever surprises are in store upon opening said box.

            But now a curiosity question: Why on earth would PA discontinue such a stellar-performing gun as the HW30S, acknowledged by all as a paragon of accuracy and quality at an affordable price, and easily shot off hand, when Weihrauch still shows it as a current model? Was it such a poor seller? I just can’t fathom this and am genuinely curious how/why such decisions get made at PA, not that this is any of my business. right to know this of course.

            Volvo: I just bought the HW50S anyway. The R9/HW 95 is heavier (if the specs are to be believed!!) and lacks the open sights. Then again, I might scope it anyway after a while.


            • AlanL,

              I’ve asked Pyramyd Air’s purchasing dept. which HW guns they’re going to bring in. I know some others we currently don’t have are being ordered.

              I’ve asked for a comprehensive list and will put it on the current blog whenever the list comes through.


          • Edith,
            Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I feel like I just got some insider information. I, for one, had no idea stuff like that was going on. Anytime you need to get stuff like that off your chest let us know. It’s not good to keep that all inside. 🙂

            • Chuck,

              Just a couple minutes ago, I was reading a customer gun review (I read & approve/decline all the gun reviews), and the person said the weight shown on the guns specs was incorrect. Yes, well I got that that weight from the mfr’s spec sheet that accompanies the press release that introduced the gun or I got it from the owner’s manual or I got it from the mfr’s website. Turns out that the gun is 2 lbs. heavier than what I had listed. The weight originally sent out by this very large company for an extremely popular gun was either a typo or they had not yet produced the gun & they guessed at the weight. I believe it was the latter, because, looking at my keyboard, there’s no way you can typo that weight to be the one they originally sent out.

              And here’s some more fodder for confusion: a mfr may list the weight of the gun with the included accessories (gun & scope) or without it. Plus, each mfr is not consistent. One time the mfr will list the weight with all accessories, but for the next gun they’ll list it for just the gun. What happens when they change scopes or mounts, as mentioned in my previous comment? They NEVER update the weight when that happens…if they happened to include the weight of the gun with the accessories in the first place.

              That’s why I scour all available literature and annoy the daylights out of people when I can’t find sufficient info on a product or the specs given to me seem bogus or just don’t look right. That’s why I say that the overwhelming majority of info on our airgun products are accurate.

              When I find inaccurate info, even when the mfr insists that their info/specs is correct, I include the known info on Pyramyd Air’s product page. PA’s owners insist that info be as accurate as humanly possible. Therefore, you’ll see on some product pages a disclosure that the mfr or the owner’s manual say one thing, but PA’s personnel have found it to be otherwise. We can’t mislead people. It’s wrong. This is the top reason I love working with PA — they are honest people who refuse to mislead customers and will do anything in their power to ensure the customer receives exactly what they ordered.


              • Edith,
                In my minds eye I see a technical writer sitting in a cubicle writing product specs for something he/she has never had much contact with. He sticks his head around the corner and shouts, “Hey, Joe, how much did you say that gun weighed?” Joe yells back, “I don’t remember, put down 4 pounds. That’s how much the last gun weighed.”

                • Chuck,

                  I don’t think it’s like that all. I think they work with the estimated specs they get from engineering drawings and the engineers before the guns are made. Other times, they plug in numbers just as place holders with the intent of correcting them later. Unfortunately, later is MUCH later…and customers have already bought guns and are disappointed because the guns don’t measure up or are too heavy or have shorter barrels or different triggers or different scope bases, etc.


  16. B.B., Lloyd,
    Do you know of any plans to create a smallbore version of the Rogue (i.e., a rifle or pistol that leverages this technology)? I can see a version of the Crosman Challenger that can be suited for either 10 meter or Field Target competition.

    • I can certainly see the electronic valve control in a 10 meter competition rifle where precise control of everything about the shot is in order, and where “precision” is the whole game. In addition, the $1500 price tag wouldn’t scare anybody, and it would probably go significantly higher once a competitive stock and sights got attached as well as competition butt plate. Heck, I spent most of that for a non-electronic pistol and would have been well over $2000 had I opted for the rifle of my dreams (but I didn’t opt. 😉 )

      I’m pretty sure the e-valve would save at least 0.1 point per 10 shot string even for the top shooters; it might do more than that. And that’s the difference between a medal and not.

      • Pete,
        The reason I mention the Challenger is that it’s been doing very well in competition, including 3-position. However, in the beginning, when it was still being evaluated, it was being compared to higher powered PCP’s used in Field Target competition. Crosman can go places with this technology in many areas. A duel purpose rifle is one such direction. Now, considering costs, as you mentioned, a duel purpose rifle would be much easier to justify, than buying two competition rifles.

    • Victor,

      I know that Crosman marketing and engineering heads are very encouraged by what they have seen from the Rogue thus far. Their plans are 100 times larger than the current rifle. So the idea of a 10-meter rifle and pistol has occurred to them, I am quite sure.

      They now face a larger problem. With limited resources (when the universe awaits, your resources will always be limited, by definition) where do you go next?


      • B.B.,
        Good question. For starters, like MANY air-gun enthusiast, I’m not a hunter, so it’s really up to Crosman to expand on the use of this technology. I’m sure that they have more resources than me. Since I’ve not bought a good Field Target rifle, yet, I’d be in line for one that employs this technology, especially if it could also be toned down for 10 meter competition. Being able to switch between, say, 550 fps and 950 fps, would make for a very nice smallbore rifle, especially if I could get between 150 and 200 shots per air cylinder (I get over 220 with my FWB).

        I like where Crosman is going with their product line. Reading about the Challengers accuracy, and actually holding one, led me to believe that it would be a winner, and it’s definitely helped competitors become winners. The Marauder has also turned out to be a winner as both a rifle and pistol. The Rogue is a leap over anything else recently introduced by the competition. Bottom line, Crosman’s trajectory is making them a game changer, as they are not just evolutionary, but revolutionary, I think.

      • Their plans are 100 times larger than the current rifle.

        So we’re talking a 35″ battleship main gun powered by compressed air? I suppose; after all, aircraft carrier catapults are steam powered…

    • wpreis,

      You could think of it that way. Actually the 26 is a different gun altogether, but the styling does make it look a lot like a 28.

      It is less powerful than the 28. You can buy a good working one for around $80-100 at most airgun shows. And condition is everything. Looking 95 percent in the box it might fetch $300 or more.


  17. Last week I was pacing the vet’s floor worrying that I was going to have to put my old cat Pixel to sleep immediately. Pixel has congestive heart failure, and at that point could barely walk, could barely eat or drink, was recovering from losing two teeth, and wasn’t even keeping himself clean.

    The x-rays are clear; ole buddy has less than half a lung still functioning; the other 3/2 are filled with fluid except the left one is also collapsed. But we follow the doctor’s orders and give him a diuretic shot twice a day. It’s worked a couple of miracles. He’s back being active and happy; he’s cleaning his fur, and eating a lot of meat (he won’t touch the dry food any longer, probably because it’s hard for him to chew.) But he’s comfortable and more, and he’s having fun. His voice is as loud as ever.

    I know he’s just “in remission.” I can read the literature that says median time from diagnosis to expiration for an old cat in his condition is about three months. We’ll take what we can get; if it’s 3 months, that’s fine. If it’s 2 or 6, fine. What was so awful was to see him go from vigorous and healthy to apparently dying in less than 24 hours. Thanks for keeping us in your thoughts.

    His odd name: When we got him we had something else picked out, but then I began to realize that at night he was getting from the basement utility room where he and a litter mate slept to my range and rec room even though all doors and windows were closed and locked. He was walking through walls! Robert Heinlein once wrote a novel about a cat named Pixel who walked through walls, so the inevitable name change.

    The trick: the carpenter who built in a closet didn’t quite close two drywall panels at the back, so Pix found the path in-out-back-forth that led him from one room to the other.

    • And some other good news — a personal best shot with the LP-10 at 10 metres this evening: a 93. My bad shoulder restricts me to no more than one or two strings of 10 shots each per day until I start getting right and left sides back to roughly equal strength. Taking a while. Lifting a lot of one litre water bottles.


      • Pete,
        My pistol coach, Stan Hulstrom, recommended two exercises for shoulder and grip strength:

        1. Take one of those grip exercisers, and hang 3 to 5 pounds to it. Bring it up, as if to shoot, while squeezing it, and hold it for a minute or so. Repeat for as long as your comfortable.

        2. Take a shoulder width piece of broomstick, attach (e.g., nail) a piece of thin rope to it with weight at one end, and while holding your arms straight out, wind the stick in one direction, until the weight comes up to it. Then, unwind the rope until the weight returns back to ground level.

        The really good pistol shooters that I knew had strong shoulders and forearms.


    • Pete,

      I know where this is heading. Edith and I lost our last old cat, Hunny (for Attila the Hun) several years ago and for the first time in a long time Edith was without a cat. She and I both needed time to grieve for Hunny.

      Then she brought Dale Evans home as a kitten and now we have three again.

      Life does go on, but I don’t envy you having to say goodbye to a friend like Pixel. We will be thinking of you.


    • Pete,
      I’m sorry to hear about your cat, Pixel. Our cat, Whiskey, died a couple years ago. We raised Wiskey since she was just a couple days old. Whiskey was not a particularly loving cat, and would only let us touch her with our feet. However, she was social, in her own way. She preferred to be physically close to us, provided that we didn’t touch her with our hands. Our dogs were surprisingly close to her, and enjoyed chasing her (the most exercise she would otherwise get). Whiskey died of a heart attack. We knew that there was something wrong with her heart, so we were expecting it just before it happened. The odd thing was that within a couple days of her death, she started to let us touch her with our hands. She was more affectionate than ever, as if she was telling us goodbye.

      As I’m sure Pixel is to you and yours, Whiskey was family (just not the nicest member, and yet probably the most spoiled).

      • Victor,

        I have had cats as family members for over fifty years. Firsthand observation has convinced me that cats are cognizant of their own mortality. They can recognize not only their impending deaths, but the deaths of their human handlers. I think the early Egyptians observed this too, and considered cats “keepers of the door to the afterlife” for that reason.

        Only seven gene pairs differentiate cats from humans.

        I will keep Pete Z and Pixel in my prayers.


        • Pete

          I am very happy to hear that Pixel is doing better and getting down to the business of being a cat. He may or may not have long, but he is happy for now and so are you which is what matters.

          They are the most fascinating creatures, cats. When I am pulling into my neighborhood after a night at work, I always feel pangs of exitement about playing with my two furry little clowns when I get home.

  18. B.B. and all

    Sorry, I was off for more than a week. My net went dead on Friday night, and that very night I took off for Italy, France and Monaco.
    Now I’m back and it seems I finally met the people who have skills and equipment enough to make the most difficult part of my project – main coupling and synchro assembly. Man, they do love money… On the other hand – they are the best I could find.


      • B.B.

        It will. I’m very stubborn and not making it means throwing away almost 2 years of hard thinking and working into trashcan, which I cannot allow myself to do.


    • It’s nice that you were able to find someone help you realise your project.
      But why didn’t you stay in Monaco a few more days?!? The F1 Grand-Prix is this week-end!


      • J-F

        I got tired of F1. I used to be a fan of Senna, but when he met his fate – I’m through with F1. Besides that I feel that this sport is slowly dying – I can judge it from the way they toss the rules and so on. They just cannot make it interesting: no supermen on the track these days, races grew tiresome technical competition with no “sharpness”.


        • The Senna and Prost years were awesome, the fights those two gave… I think those spoiled us and we now want the same thing and until the budgets go down we’re not gonna have the same kind of driving.
          But I still like it. 22 cars running at full power in the straight with the engine screaming at 11,000 RPM is still worth watching to me. I would have liked to see Kubica run this year and I tough you would have watched to see Petrov because I still miss Villeneuve when he was running at the head of the pack.


            • Monaco is ALWAYS interesting. Rarely a dull race in Monaco.
              Same when they come here (Montreal) usually.
              I think they need more “urban” races instead of the well tought out circuit designed by Hermann Tilke. It’s nice to fell the danger of racing and knowing that putting a wheel or two out of the line is NOT an option, makes thing thighter.


              • I visited Monaco 5-6 years back just a few days after the race, while the track was still all installed, and paid a cabbie to drive me one lap around (which is, apparently, not an unusual request 😉 ). I sure would not want to drive that in traffic at speed! Gotten too old (this is an excuse; I was never that kind of driver).


          • So was Indy, at least the last half lap. I had just commented to my wife (as the announcer was touting the ‘next rookie winner…’ that, you know, people had been known to run out of gas or hit the wall on the last lap when, Bang. Amazing to come in second running on only three wheels and shedding parts all over the track.

  19. Alan L

    I hope you enjoy your new rifle. The HW50S is the only Weihrauch I have that I purchased new. Unscoped, it is just about the perfect size and weight for me. And you have to love the front globe sight with 6 inserts. But it is just too accurate to use unscoped. Its one of my best shooters.

    18# ?! Not a chance. I figure mine was about 35 when I first got it, but has gotten easier now that it is breaking in. It was also very jumpy at first but now that is smoothing out as well. I am considering putting a Vortek kit in it.

    .177 or .22?

    • Slinging Lead,

      .177. For .22 I only like springers that can push out medium to heavy pellets at 650 fps or greater.
      I am so tempted to replace my .22 RWS 350 with T05 for the at last available T06, but I’m waiting for B.B.’s looooong promised review of this trigger first.


        • TwoTalon,

          Nothing, really. Mostly just the fact that it isn’t a T06. Does that make sense? The T06 is newer and supposedly nicer better smoother yadayada, so… umm… no excuse really.


      • AlanL:
        I was a little at odds with SL over the cocking effort and jumpiness of the HW50s till I recently had a couple of Marathon shooting sessions(150-200 shots) with it.
        I now see exactly what he means.
        The amazing thing and SL has wrote this before,is,when you walk up the range expecting to see (with all the jumping around) a large spread on the target,it can be a one inch group or less.
        A lovely rifle,I’m sure you will like it as much as your HW30.

        • DaveUK,

          I look forward to breaking it in and see it settle down to a smooth shooter. My eyes have also gone to hell so I’m going to move the small scope from the RWS 350 to the new HW50S take my big scope off the Diana 54 and put it on the 350.

          For the HW50S I have JSB Exacts, Crosman Premiers and Baracuda Match. Do you know which one it likes best?


          • AlanL:
            Well so far,I have shot H&N Hollow points,Spitzkugeln and Coppa points-RWS Super H points-Prometheus Black,green also a couple of hugely expensive Dynamic domes and JSB Exact Jumbo’s.
            All in .22
            Top for accuracy and consistancy and repectable for penetration were the JSB Exacts.
            Unfortunatly I haven’t got any Crosman Premiers or Baracuda Match to make a comparison for you.Sorry.

            • Alan L

              I know how you feel about the T06. I hear it is comparable to the venerable rekord trigger. Also, they are making it out of metal now if I am not mistaken.

              My .177 HW50S likes H&N Field Target Trophy pellets. It also does OK with Barracuda Match and Crosman Premier Heavies. Dave’s 50/99 is likely to have many more rounds down the barrel than mine. And therefore well broken in. I am flush with air rifles for the time being, and do not shoot it as often as I should. Also it does not have the ‘S’ in the breech block stamping. 🙁 😉

              Have you received it yet? Heavier pellets should minimize any initial jumpiness.

    • I have a Diana 52, and my rear sight is the same as yours. My brother has a 48. I’ll have to take a look at his rear sight next time I’m over that way.

      • It might pay to watch the tightness of the setscrew that holds the blade in. I have heard of them coming loose and the blade falling or jumping out.
        By the way, on mine the windage knob is marked backwards for direction of travel.


    • That’s definitely not the sight my T01 mod 54 carries. Mine has a thin horizontal thumbwheel for elevation (I don’t recall windage — think that isn’t even a thumbwheel but just a recessed screw) and the sight blade is a square with notches on all four edges (two square, two U, in two widths each). Not sure if it is spring tensioned or uses a very small allen head screw as retainer.

  20. BB-Lloyd:
    Just touching on an interesting point J-F raised about ‘The Rogue’ having an electronic limiter rather than a mechanical one for our countries with power limits.
    If that was to be the case,especially when the technology reaches smaller calibre air guns.
    Would it be possible to ‘chip’ these airguns?
    Like when you ‘chip’ a car to increase engine performance.

    • Dave,

      Anything with software can be hacked, so of course chipping would be possible. In fact, I expect to see Rogue buyers doing exactly that here in the U.S.

      I envision a website where computer nerds swap machine-code algorithms designed to make the Rogue sit up and beg.


  21. BB:
    There is no doubt about it.What you fella’s have done has opened up a whole new world of air gunning.
    I’ve said it once,I say it again.
    What an honour to be in yours and Llyod’s company.

      • DaveUK,
        I’m not going to let BB off that easy. He’s going to have to take some of the credit for this. Look at all the books and articles about inventing and patenting and it’s not about coming up with a good idea, it’s about finding a company that will , 1) listen to you, and 2) that is willing to take a risk on your idea. No way could I have accomplished those 2 things myself.

        • Lloyd

          No doubt BB throwing his weight behind your project influenced Crosman to take a serious look at what you were doing, rather than brushing you off. In my book, you are both pantheons in the book of airgun history. And neither of you is finished yet!

          We are not worthy.

  22. BB,

    Have you recorded any shots with the Rogue at maximum 3000 psi charge with the “Discharge” setting using the Nosler 145 grain or a 170 grain bullet? It would appear to me to be the ideal setting to bring down medium sized game. Accuracy might be a problem though.

  23. B.B.
    I’ve had a Rogue for awhile now but haven’t seen much done by Crosman lately to develop the potential of this rifle. I’d appreciate it if you could answer a couple of questions for me about the Rogue.
    1. How do I change the amount of time the valve remains open?
    2. How do I update the software in the rifle? If Crosman has a better algorithm that the rifle can use I would like to install it.
    3. Is there any way to change the caliber?
    4. Is there any way to change the fill pressure for increased power?
    5. Have you seen any customization of the rifle by gunsmiths in the Airgun community?
    6. Do you think Crosman will be able to reduce the size of the rifle? Traveling withe Rogue and a baby stroller in a sedan is definitely a challenge.
    7. I haven’t seen any additional reports on the Rogue, are you planning on any further blog post about it?
    8. Do you think Crosman will try to implement any of the features of the new Evanix rifles?
    Sorry, I know that’s a lot of questions but I’ve been meaning to ask them for awhile.

    • Airgunosoris,

      Thanks for posting your question to the blog. It’s a much better place for an answer than a social site.

      First of all, just past the DISCHARGE setting is the SOLENOID TIME setting. This is where you control the time in microseconds that the valve remains open.

      You don’t change the software in the rifle. Crosman does. It’s installed on firmware that they have to burn for you.

      There is no way for you to change the caliber. Crosman may come out with changes in the future, but because the Rogue is a repeater, it needs a lot of things done to make any changes.

      I don’t understand your question about changing the fill pressure. That is controlled by the gauge on your filler hose. The Rogue has a pressure sensor inside the reservoir that senses the pressure and the computer then determines what can be done with the air in the gun.

      No one is customizing the Rogue that I know of.

      Yes Crosman COULD reduce the size of the gun. The question is, do they want to?

      I am not planning any more reports about the Rogue unless Crosman make a major change to it.

      You are really asking whether Crosman will make a semiautomatic Rogue, and I think the answer is no, because they gun uses too much air.

      You have to appreciate that the Rogue is operating in a place where no big bore air rifle has ever operated in the past. What you are asking for are changes to the space shuttle, when NASA is just glad the shuttle works at all.


  24. I’d like to ask a question in the rouge technology,any chance we can see crosman bringing us this tech in .25 cal that is my all time favorite cal.any thoughts would be greatly accepted!The rouge is simply master peace work I have shot one now on hog hunts twice with both shots landing a 200lbs field stripped hog and the other 256lbs. both taken on the river delta in Mobile,Al,and I may add with ease.

    • nervous,

      I think you mean the Rogue. There was talk of applying this technology to other calibers, but I have no information that it is being considered. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t — just that I don’t know about it.

      As far as the Marauder 25 goes, I blogged it a while back. Look here:



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