by B.B. Pelletier
Announcement: Rich Mulvey is this week’s winner of Pyramyd Air’s Big Shot of the Week on their facebook page. He’ll receive a $50 Pyramyd AIR gift card! Congratulations!
Rich says that this is Ben, who’s 11 years old. He’s getting ready to shoot the reset paddle on his Gamo trap. He’s using the Air Venturi Bronco.
Today I’ll begin a look at a big bore precharged air rifle that most of you will never see. The Quackenbush .308 is a classic from the central Missouri airgun maker.
This air rifle may not be mainstream; but just mention it to airgun hunters, and you might as well have pulled the starter rope on a hotrod snowmobile! The noise starts immediately as people break up into discussion groups, some to explore the potential accuracy or the best bullet and others to recount the dozens of game animals that have fallen to their rifles.
I’ve personally seen 150-lb. goats dropped at 140+ yards with single shots from this rifle, though I wouldn’t recommend it for that distance or for that size animal. But it did work, and I saw it do that twice in one day. But hunting is the purview of others. I’m going to do my usual review of the rifle and let you readers decide how best to use it.
.308 caliber
Dennis Quackenbush is both a shooter and a hunter. Besides making several hundred airguns each year, this man “gets it.” He knows that if an air rifle is a .45 caliber it either has to be a .451 that can use common pistol bullets or a .458 that uses common rifle bullets. He would never think of foisting a .454-caliber rifle on his customers, because Dennis knows that the .454 pistol caliber died before World War II. As a shooter, he understands the importance of making rifles in calibers for which there are a wide variety of lead bullets, because not everyone casts their own.
He chose the .308 caliber for the obvious reason that it’s the most popular-sized .30-caliber bullet here in the U.S. There are .310 and .311 lead bullets available for the SKS, AKM and the Mosin Nagant — but they’re not that popular. You have to search to find them. But .308 is money in the bank here in the U.S. You’ll find dozens of different styles and weights to try in your rifle.
I once asked him why he didn’t go with 9mm when he brought out this rifle and he responded, “Ballistics. You know there are very few 9mm lead pistol bullets available on the market; and of those, the heaviest is about 125 grains. That gives you a short, fat bullet with low sectional density and poor long-range performance. But in .308, a 130-grain rifle bullet is reasonably long and has a much higher sectional density than the short 9mm pistol bullet. And my rifle can drive a 130-grain .308 bullet up to respectable velocity, making that caliber well-suited for hunters.”
Quackenbush .308 rifle is handsome even in this lowest-grade version.
The rifle
My .308 is made on a Long Action Outlaw receiver. I tested a .308 Exile back in 2005, but the rifle I tested was made on the old action with a shorter striker spring and striker travel. The long action allows the striker spring to be longer and the striker to travel a longer distance. Both increase the airflow through the valve, which equates to power.
My article reviewing the Exile is up on the Quackenbush website, so I’m able to compare the performance of this current long action gun to what was done in the past. That old rifle shot a 128.6-grain bullet at 860 f.p.s. on the first shot — generating 211.25 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. It did take some shooting to get the rifle up to that velocity, as the moving parts do need to wear in a bit, but I’ll also lubricate them before the velocity test starts with the new rifle, which will put me on better footing than I was in the old test.
The rifle is blued steel housed in a figured walnut stock. I selected the lowest-grade gun Dennis makes, but you can see from the photo that it’s still something to be proud of. It weighs 8 lbs. exactly without a scope, and the rifle comes without sights, so a scope is required. It comes with Weaver bases installed, so you need Weaver rings to match.
I’ve used the Leapers Bug Buster scope and other compact scopes in the past on these rifles, but the long action of this particular rifle needs a scope with a longer tube. The plan is to install a long eye-relief scope and see how it works. After my success with the Evanix Conquest at 4x, I’m suddenly interested in lower-power scopes — especially for workman rifles like this.
The rifle is just shy of 44 inches long, and has a 26-inch barrel. The pull is 13-1/2 inches. The action is different from what you may be used to, though it’s not unusual. Dennis uses a separate cocking bolt to retract the striker against the heavy spring, leaving the loading bolt for just the single function of inserting a bullet. This design was popular back in the 1980s with several vintage British precharged rifles but is seen less often today. In powerful big bores, however, it offers the advantage of providing good purchase on the cocking handle, while leaving the loading bolt normal-sized.
The black handle cocks the striker. The knobbed bolt is just for loading.
Dennis makes all his own barrels and the rifling buttons that cut them. At one time when he was experimenting with twist rates, he was hand-cutting the rifling; but now that he has the data he needs, button-rifled barrels are easier and faster to make, as well as smoother after production.
Lead bullets
I’ve made several references to using lead bullets — now let me explain why. In big bore air rifles, you want to eliminate as much friction as possible. Jacketed bullets have too much friction and will slow the velocity way down, plus they wear the soft steel of the barrel much faster. This holds true for vintage firearms, as well, which is why I would never shoot a jacketed bullet in a Trapdoor Springfield or in my old Ballard. People do shoot them in vintage guns, but they’re wearing out barrels much faster than they should.
These older guns have much softer steel in their barrels. While they’ll reasonably give 50,000-100,000 shots with lead bullets if properly cared for, shooting jacketed bullets will wear them out in as few as 5,000 rounds. I’m speaking about firearms now — the airgun barrels do not wear out at the same rate, and nobody knows how many shots they could conceivably get.
Fill pressure
Dennis builds airguns for thinking owners. You don’t just pull one of his rifles from a box and fill it to 3,000 psi. You experiment, which means you need to have access to a chronograph. I’ve found his Outlaw actions can tolerate 3,200 psi up to 3,500 psi very well and give optimum performance. Others have claimed fill pressures up to 3,850 psi in their guns. The point is that you experiment until you find the fill pressure that gives the greatest number of high-power shots with the bullet you’ve selected to use. I’m hoping to get four or possibly five good shots on one fill of this rifle.
Quackenbush rifles all fill from a standard Foster male fittings. He provides a stainless steel fitting to prevent the ball bearings of the female fitting from impressing themselves into the metal of the male fitting at high fill pressures.
The rifle is filled through a common Foster male fitting. It’s very standard around the world.
General
Dennis has very definite thoughts on what makes a good airgun. Though he also builds parts for aerospace companies and test fixtures for other manufacturers, he keeps his airgun technology firmly planted in the 1950s. By that I mean he’s going to use steel for the metal parts and walnut for the wood.
He buys his stock blanks in large lots, so there will always be enough for his production needs. And he shapes the stocks on a pantograph to save time and keep the shape consistent.
Quackenbush always has several hundred walnut stock blanks on hand.
We’re in this together
I have owned this rifle for about four years and have never fired it. My .458 Quackenbush always takes precedence, so this adventure will be just as new to me as it is to you. I’m inviting you to watch over my shoulder as I get to know this classic big bore.
B.B.,
Beg your pardon?
You’ve owned a Quackenbush .308 for 4 years and never shot it??!!
I’m done. I’m finished. I resign. I don’t know what to get for the man that has a custom Quackenbush that can’t find time to shoot it in 4 years. Edith can obviously figure it out but I’m not as smart as she is.
Think your impending series might have spawned this?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1328811330/.308+bullet+for+long+range+use
kevin
Kevin,
You have to understand that my .458 has one of the few 32″ barrels Dennis ever made in that caliber. The .308 is just a regular rifle, while the .458 is pretty special.
I got the .308 knowing that someday I would do a thorough review of it. Well, I’m doing a feature article on Dennis for Shogun News (out 4/20 this year) and it was time to blow the dead wasps out of the barrel. 😉
B.B.
Okay…what else you got that you aren’t telling us about?
A Mercedes Gullwing in the backyard?
A Faberge egg on the bookshelf?
CSD,
He won’t tell us about all of his motorcycles and tractors that he doesn’t get to ride too often. He’ll get in trouble with you know who. Shussss. It’s a secret.
kevin
bb, i have an off topic question for you that i posted in the talon p blog before i realized it was old.on the talon p i see that the info on it says only 25 cal can be used with it as that is what the valve is optimized for. my question is can an 18-24 inch barrel be used on it as long as its 25cal? seems to be using a lot of air so why not take advantage of a longer pipe as most seem to be using the gun as a carbine anyway and the frame does nothing to suppress the report anyway? reason i ask is because from the looks of it, its just a talon frame with condor hammer and ss end cap and a new tank and valve design… am i correct in this assumption?
nyhunter,
I answered this question on the TalonP report where you first asked it.
As it turns out, I got a TalonP pistol for further testing today, so I will look into this. I’ve had this same question from others.
Now, the frame DOES moderate the muzzle blast. I don’t know where you heard that it didn’t, but it wasn’t from me! Without the end cap, the pistol is LOUD!
As for your assumptions of what it is, no, it isn’t any of that. It really is a completely different airgun. I will try to shot that clearly in future reports.
B.B.
ok thank you. i’m not really interested in sound suppression anyway so was wondering about the longer barrel as most of what i do pretty long range woodchuck hunting as well as predators. plus in ny one is not allowed to hunt with a supressed firearm and technically once you use an air powered weapon to hunt, it’s treated the same as a firearm and subject to the same rules. which is why i dont have a marauder, dec officers in my area are sticklers and i’m not a lucky man!!!lol. i do however have 6 airforce guns and just as many shin sungs. i have a condor that as we speak is undergoing a transformation to a 30 and 357 caliber big bore with a 4500psi reg’d carbon fiber tank. the barrels are done and we are working on getting the valve and hammer/ breech done. should be ready to catch the last few weeks of song dog season here i hope
Wondered the same thing myself…
Matt61
It must be nice to be able to let an air gun like that sit for so long, even with the hundreds of other new air guns you “had” to shoot. I would have had to see what it would do as soon as I had it unpacked. There is nothing fancy about Dennis’ air rifles, but the quality work shines through. I have a feeling he is about to be swamped with calls.
RR,
I’ll bet he’s got some really nice pieces of walnut in that stack…. :-D…….
/Dave
/Dave,
He does! There are a couple thousand-dollar blanks in there.
B.B.
Price of nice walnut stock blanks has gone thru the roof. $1,000 doesn’t buy much anymore. Bertram & Company is about a 30 minute drive from my home.
http://www.bertramandco.com/StockBlanks.htm
kevin
Interesting. Walnut trees are basically weeds around here. Tons of American black walnut. What we always need more of, its Persian walnut (the kind you normally eat) grafted onto black walnut rootstock. But there’s just a lot of black walnut trees growing around here, the darned things sprout up and grow like …. weeds.
Maybe I should learn about how to turn the wood into gun stocks.
Can’t find the time in 4 yrs, BB? Well, I guess it would be hard to shoot this one in the house….
/Dave
/Dave,
Yeah, ever since I shot the couch, Edith has asked me to please not shoot anything that can go through more than one wall. 😉
B.B.
LOL! “Please”, yet…. 😀 ! Kind of like when your parents used your middle name, only in wifespeak… You know you’d better listen to that request.
/Dave
Volvo,
Have you tried the trigger pull on a Taurus TCP .380 Auto? I think it’s better than the Ruger’s. Much, much lighter.
Derrick,
I take it you own one? What type of action is it?
I think I want to go SA only. I had a Ruger 9mm that the first shoot was DA and then the rest was single, which wasn’t bad but it still threw me off. The second shot was always as surprise when it broke so easy.
This is what I am thinking now:
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/pistols-p238.aspx
I think part of the issue is I expect too much accuracy wise, since I am so use to precision rifle shooting.
if I get the Sig, it looks like rainbow is the way to go. : 0 )
BB,
It wasn’t the sting of the little LCP .380 that was annoying me, heck compared to shooting a snubbie with .357 mag it was like a cap gun. I just could not fit my hand on it and this was compounded by the crimson trace grip button that keep going on and off as I tried to get comfortable with it.
I knew you did not have the LCP, I recalled you suggesting something else but could not remember exactly what it was other than it was much more $$$. As usual I was attracted to the low price of the Ruger, but this time it might have been a false value – at least for me.
Volvo,
Bought one several weeks ago. Love it. Much more likely to carry it than a full-size 1911 or Glock.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=683&category=Pistol&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=738
It’s DAO, .380 Auto. 6+1. No safety, just a long–but light–trigger pull. Fixed sights, It’s a pocket gun for sure. Super small, flat profile, light and easily carried. Your favorite “take a number” local gun store should have one or two in the case.
Derrick,
Wow, strong endorsement.
I found out that Ruger makes a longer magazine that might help me get 3 of my fat fingers on the grip.
So I will give that a try first, since I’ll really take a bath trading it in.
If it doesn’t work out I’ll check out the Taurus.
Thanks for the advice.
If this is for defense, isn’t .38 a little light? I have wondered this about the 9X18 Makarov which is a super gun by all accounts, but its round is equivalent to .38 ACP.
Matt61
Matt,
The practical side of it won out. It’s not ideal, but neither is much else in life. I concluded that a .380 readily at hand is better than a .40 at home locked in the safe.
Matt61,
Honestly a revolver is still my first choice.
After all the .357 magnum with 125 grain bullets is the all time leader for one stop shots.
Plus when you pull the trigger it always goes bang. No slides, safeties, or other non sense.
However it is not always practical to carry the corresponding revolver.
Small cartridges make smaller pistols possible, in comes the .380 auto.
Beats a pen knife when the S&W 686 makes a bit too much of a bulge.
After all the .380 was good enough for James Bond.
Matt,
I carry a Polish Radon P64 (ppks knock-off) in 9×18. 6+1 rounds of max loaded handloads. It fits in a pocket holster nicely, although it’s all steel and therefore a little on the heavy side. Being on the heavy side, it still stings a bit to shoot since the 9×18 Mak packs a bit more punch than the .380, but I can regularly shoot 4″-5″ groups at 15 yds with it. As Derrick says, it’s better to have this on you than have your “ideal” self defense weapon at home in the safe…..
/Dave
In a semi-auto, check out the Glock 26 in 9mm. Compact, light, and, reliable. You can get hot 124 gr. ammo that is close on the heals of 125gr. 357 ammo. Speer Gold Dot Plus P ammo works well.
Mike
Mike,
I have a Glock 20 in 10mm, but it’s one of the “at home” guns. So far I’m happy with it’s function and accuracy and someday I might think about changing from my old P64, but for now I see no reason. Out of thousands of rounds fired and 2 sets of new springs, I’ve never had a misfire, ftf, fte, or any mechanical malfunction, so I trust it. And, I can hit what I aim at with it. It would be like putting away an old friend at this point….
/Dave
My, oh my. What a gorgeous rifle. And that’s the lowest-grade stock?!? Even though I’ve got pretty much no application for them, I’ve always ogled Mr. Quackenbush’s rifles, and I sometimes think about jumping on his waiting list. Just to have one, and maybe pet it now and then, and maybe even plink with it once in a while. But I don’t have any “safe queens” now, and I think I’d feel guilty if I started having ’em. Especially with the DAQs, where there seems to be a long line of folks who are waiting to put one to good use! B.B., you are really trying to turn this airgun “shooter” into an airgun collector *sigh*.
B.B., a barrage of niggling questions: 1) Is this rifle to be involved with the twist-rate experiment that ISTR you and Dennis were cooking up? 2) What’s the maximum fill pressure on this honey? I.e. are the 3850psi users within DAQ’s recommended envelope?
Thanks,
Jan
Jan,
My answer to everything is either “No” or “I don’t know.” I actually have never pulled the trigger on this rifle! It was loaned to Texas’ criminal laboratory for a study on the impressions it leaves on lead bullets (along with the .458) so the gun has been shot, but not by me.
And by the way, after all that time, it still holds air!
B.B.
Jan,
I’d say that if BB can have one for 4 years and not shoot it, then there’s nothing wrong with you having one to just look at and pet….. 🙂
/Dave
Enabler.
I resemble that remark too….. 🙂
/Dave,
The gun was initially delivered to the Texas criminal labs for testing. In other words, it went from Dennis to them (bypassed Tom). It was delivered to Tom after quite some time at the labs…and then Tom became ill. He didn’t do much shooting during that time, so that’s part of the reason it wasn’t shot. I’d have to say there was only about a year or 18 months where he owned the rifle and could have had a chance to shoot it. However, he was so far behind on other projects and reviewing guns that Pyramyd AIR sold that the DAQ gun took a back seat.
Edith
Edith,
Just poking a little fun at BB. I suspect most of us would love to be in the position of having so many guns to test that we just didn’t have time for a really nice one for a while… 🙂
/Dave
Oh, one more (obvious-sounding) question: I gather those scope mounts are fixed to the action, hence the need to choose a scope with mounting areas to match?
Oh, and is there any particular DAQ/bigbore-specific reason you’re leaning towards a long eye-relief scope?
You know what’d look terrific on such a long, classic-looking rifle? A long, classic-looking scope. Would it even be possible to mount something like an old Unertl on an action like this? Or do the front mounts need to be way farther forward than the typical airgun action allows? Would it be possible to somehow adapt a Weaver base like your DAQ’s to the Unertl-style mounts? One long-standing fantasy of mine is to acquire a classic scope, and find a way to make use of it!
-Jan
Jan,
It won’t be a long eye-relief scope after all. Even one of them isn’t long enough to fit the spacing of the scope bases. So I had to use a more conventional scope.
I was just doing it because of how well the Conquest shot on 4-power. Those long eye-relief scopes are the clearest optics money can buy.
B.B.
Stunning rifle BB,fair enough if you haven’t shot it yet as long as you told the gun you Love her.lol
Which I would be doing on a regualr basis using terms such as ‘My Precious’ or words to that affect 🙂
‘Squib’ rounds,
Oh yes had a few of them down the old shooting club.
All were from a batch of ‘reloads’ I bought from the club to shoot.
The firearm was single shot so no damage done but a lot of wasted time clearing the barrel.
Good shoot on my indoor/outdoor range yesterday with my son in law.
I’ve been shooting pretty regular but he hasn’t with his PCP.
He forgot from our last session what pellet was working best for his rifle so was sighting in for his old ‘best’ pellet.
Never mind a good couple of three hours was had by all.
Baseball caps,
Not a judgement on them or who wears them in the USA but they are a pretty new fashion in the UK.
I say new fashion,maybe 20 odd years.
Simply put,baseball cap wearers in Britain are often trouble and the ‘Burberry’ pattern baseball cap wearer is the worse of the lot.We call them ‘Chavs’.
The Chavs are so thick they think baseball caps come in two designs.Peaks at the front and peaks at the back.
The concept of a peak at a 45 degree angle would blow their mind 🙂
DaveUK
I’ve heard of chavs, it makes me thing of chives. I guess it could be fun to go to the UK wearing a baseball cap at a 45-degree angle and calling chavs “green onions”. Of course the lovely town of Fulchester is where I’d want to visit.
Flobert,
Now this is something not a lot of Brits even know.
That ‘Chav’ is not a new term at all.
As a Lad growing up in south London 30 odd years ago we used the term ‘Chav’ when refering to a baby or child and you can bet your boots,Cockney folk had been using the term ‘Chav’ decades before that.
In the late 90’s I started hearing it used to describe the antisocial/criminal underclass of Britain.
I suppose using the logic,that we are all someone’s baby(Chav) then it is correct.
How it morphed to what it now means I don’t know.
Such is the ever evolving nature of our language I go with the flow.
Are you sure you want to go to Fulchester Flobert?
I think you will be VIZibly shocked when you see the place 🙂
DaveUK
Oh I’ve dreamed of visiting Fulchester since the late 80s, believe it or not, since their lovely travel brochure used to actually be easy to get at Tower Records (and books) back in the day. Sure, I’d avoid the Bacons, Terry F*witt, et. al, Mr. Logic would be amusing at least from a distance, Felix and Buster would be quite entertaining to spend some time with, perhaps spend an evening with Tyneside’s Silver Tongued Cavalier, if only to watch him get his lights punched out by yet another busty gal, per’haps a curry and an evening with the Brown Bottle to watch him stuporously save the day.
I could probably work all the characters in, that’s one amazing maga, er, travel brochure. It’s not like the ones we have in the US, it’s actually funny! (Half the stuff gleefully published in the Viz would land the writers and artists in prison here in the “Land Of The Free”.
Really glad you got the brochure Flobert and in my opinion the late 80’s being the best ‘vintage’ as well.
Not read it myself for some time but I do have a ‘Roger’s(Mellie)Profanisaurus’ next to my ‘Collins Thesaurus’.
You can guess by my often bad spelling and grammar which book I consult most 🙂
DaveUK
I recently became interested in (afflicted with?) collecting old Sheridans.
I’d like to make plans to go to my first airgun show in Roseville, CA to see what I could find.
Unfortunately, I’d need to travel by plane to get there. My question is if I do happen to
buy a rifle or two, how do I get them back home? Is it safe to check them as luggage?
How would I pack them? Do I have to tell the airline attendant I’m carrying guns at the
baggage check in?
I’m sure others have dealt with this, but how?
Thanks,
Jay
I have never tried to ship guns, but if I was going to the show to buy some, I would break down a few shipping boxes I have and put in my suitcase. Also pack some tape. Get a local newspaper and use for packing and ship them to my home. You would be home by the time the guns arrive. OR, you can send them to me. lol
jayb,
There’s an airgun show in Roseville, CA? Can you provide details or a web page with info?
Edith
Hi Edith,
Here is where I saw the info. I often have trouble with the images from this site so I
hope it works for you.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/405945/message/1326465571/Roseville%2C+Ca.+Details.
If not, please send me an email (I think you have my email address by the fact that I posted
here?) and I’ll send you the info.
Jay
jayb,
The easiest thing to do is have the seller agree to ship them to you. You pay him and he sends the guns.
If you travel with them they must be in checked baggage inside a locked case to which you have the key. You will be called by the TSA to open the case for examination when they come to it.
So you may have to go through security twice! Ouch!
You must notify the airlines that you will be carrying guns in your luggage and there must be NO ammunition. They make no distinction for airguns that I know of.
I would have them shipped.
B.B.
Thank you, BB. Excellent advice as always.
Jay
I’ve had varied experience with ammunition for different airlines, but none of them forbade it. Delta wanted it in original packaging or some kind of container. Hawaiian restricted the ammo to less than 10 pounds but didn’t ask about it. Of course it had to be in the checked luggage.
Matt61
I have toted a couple of CO2 pistols into and out of the UK via air and without incident (all tanks being discharged). If you cross by ferry at Dover, it is unlikely that they will even bother you so long as the guns are legal in the UK. Northern Ireland is different. As long as all the pistols are small bore with the F-in-Pentagon mark you should be ok.
And I think skirting NYC and NJ and some other cities is a pain to remember. BUT, It is another country and we are bound to obey their laws. They weren’t aimed at us when passed, but at a perceived problem, even if we weigh the balance differently.
My intro to UK firearm law came from a Scotland Yard homicide detective, who does not want to see armed cops. I’ve also learned much from our own DaveUK.
There doesn’t seem to me to be an EU-Wide firearms passport that matches gun,owner, owner qualifications, etc in a way that is acceptable to all the EU countries, or even the 17 inner Schwengen countries. So taking air- or fire- arms across several national boundaries is tougher! If you want to be. Legal. But, then, in the UK you have to be 16 or so to have a Cub Scout camping knife.
Unless you have all the stamps and signatures on the paper work, assume you did it wrong, or a cop whose rugby team lost a close one could make it seem as if you did. “free on bail” doesn’t exist on the continent much.
B.B.,
I’m curious as to what the bullets look like. Will you be showing a picture in a future report? Are they specially made for airguns? Would would you buy a .308 bullet for this gun? You see, I’m thinking about how pellets have, and I thought needed, a skirt.
Also, it seems that the dimensions (overall length, and length of pull), are fairly conservative in that almost anyone would be comfortable with this gun. It’s a little heavy, but not too much so.
Victor
Victor,
Yes, I will be showing the bullet(s) I use in a future report. And I will give detailed specs, as well. I plan to use a bullet that I cast, so there will be something about that in there, as well.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thanks! I actually, I didn’t mean skirt, but rather some concave bottom that I thought helped capture air and better propel the bullet, the way that pellets have. I realize that there are pellets that don’t have a “skirt”.
Victor
Victor,
This is where an airgunner needs to know the same things as a black powder shooter, because big bore airguns act much like black powder guns.
No skirt is required. It serves no purpose on a bullet, but the bullet has to be the right diameter for the bore.
Airguns don’t obturate lead bullets like black powder guns do, so even if there was a skirt like the one Nosler puts on their bullet for the Rogue, it doesn’t work. It is still too thick to distort at the relatively low pressure of a few thousand pounds. It’s the diameter of the billet, alone, that seals the bore.
B.B.
B.B.,
Thanks! I understand. I look forward to subsequent reports on this rifle and it’s ammo.
Victor
Most of my shooting has been with rifles, target shooting and precision. My daughter is learning to shoot, and we get to share a hobby – it’s awesome. She has shown a desire to shoot a pistol too, and that’s new territory for me in the airgun department. I have a Beeman P17 and a CP99. Both are nice for what they are, but she can’t really shoot them. The P17 is way too hard for her to cock. The double action trigger on the CP99 destroys her aim. Sure, the CP99 can be cocked and then shoot in single action, but again – she cannot cock it. Yes, I could cock either for her, but she likes to be independent and having me cock it for her sort of takes something away, like she is only partially shooting it.
So, I’ve been looking for pistols which can recock themselves, and blowback is the only method I know of for airgun pistols to handle that trick. That leaves only a few players; the Walther P99 Compact, the Beretta PX4, Walther PPK/S, Gamo PT85, Gamo P25. There are some BB repeaters like the two Walther models, but I assume they aren’t that accurate. I had a PPK/S for a few days, but more BB’s rolled out the barrel than were shot out the barrel. Loved the feel, not the function. I’m guessing the P99 Compact does the same from the reviews. That pretty much leaves the few pellet pistols, the two Gamo’s and Beretta. We only really do target practice, and backyard plinking. Can anyone offer me any advice on these or other options? I don’t have much knowledge on this subject, so if you can help, I’d appreciate it.
Give some serious thought to an Izzy. It is only a single shot and is on the heavy side, but you would be hard pressed to outshoot it with anything less than a PCP 10 meter pistol. And for what you get, it is dirt cheap. That is what I use for plinking.
I have thought about that one. I’m concerned that it is front heavy for her to shoot. She is only 10, in 5th grade – but smaller than is common for her age (smallest in her class). The Izzy is a great option, could a very small child shoot it? Cock it? The rifle she is shooting is an IZH too, so she might really like that.
Bristolview,
Maybe think about buying 2. Something smaller to keep her going that’s not going to be a chore for her to shoot, like a 2240 with a bigger bolt handle, and the Izh 46m for when she grows into it. I’m a full grown man and I find the 46m to be “large and heavy”. Can’t imagine what it would look like to her… But, I’ll probably never outshoot my 46m…
/Dave
The Izzy is probably a bit heavy for her right now and it has a massive grip that needs to be shaped to the shooter’s hand. Maybe you should consider the Daisy Avanti 747 for her right now and get the Izzy for yourself. She should be able to deal with it and when she is a little older she will likely say “Daddy, will you shape the Izzy’s grip to fit my hand?”. And of course Daddy will do just that.
Thanks for giving me an idea of how heavy it is. Definitely out for a little while at least then. Great gun, just not for her at the moment.
How about the SW M&P which shoots pellets and bbs for a reasonable price? That is a gun I would get if I were going to. Now you can get it for my vicarious enjoyment. 🙂
Matt61
The SW M&P is a nice looking gun. It is DAO though isn’t it? For her size, a DAO trigger means she will have difficulty holding her aim while shooting. That’s why I was/am trying to find a pistol which has a single action, and lighter trigger. I listed the blowback models that enable this, I’m also open to models that are easy to cock. My CP99 has Double or single action, the double action is horrible. The single is quite good, but it is too stiff for her to cock it. If there is a model that is easy to cock to get to single action, I’m all for it.
You can cock the slide manually for single-shot which is what I was thinking of. But the comments say that it takes some strength, and it’s kind of a drag anyway. So, yeah, you’re right.
Matt61
Bristolview,
Airgun target shooters seldom shoot repeaters. So you should consider single shots. For about $60 you can get a Crosman 2240 (in .22 caliber) that will be more accurate than anything you listed. It is easy to cock, easy to hold and it’s quite accurate.
B.B.
B.B. Thanks. I’m not sure why I hadn’t considered your suggestion before. These are easy to cock and very accurate. For rifle shooting, we shoot targets and spinners. For pistol, I was thinking more along the lines of plinking, cans and other reactionary targets to make it fun. She is a perfectionist, and the cans would give a gratifying ping without the frustration of not having the shot within the inner ring as often. That’s why I was looking at a fun plinker that would add a little action fun, focus on hitting a can instead of right on the bullseye. That’s why I was looking at the Pellet repeaters like the Gamo and Berreta. They’d recock themselves (for her), give a nice feel (intro to a real pistol down the road), and have reasonable (ping a can top) accuracy. Seemed like a fun way to introduce her into shooting a pistol. I’ve had bad luck with Gamo before though (trigger snapped off, CO2 drained whether you shot or not, jams… just horrible), and I’m skeptical of going that route ever again. I really wish the P99 Compact was a pellet gun… ok, that’s just for me because I love the CP99 for a plinker. Thanks for the suggestion B.B. I’ll definitely give your suggestion a look, it’s probably the best option out there. Thanks. (Oh – Thanks for the GREAT series on open sights. I loved the history, I learned much. Very appreciated).
So, if a .22 pcp is very loud, wouldn’t this be just unbearably louder? Since I think we all agreed there’s no point in reproducing firearms with airgun technology, what was the purpose of the big bore airguns? It must be short range hunting of large game without the bullet overpenetrating and traveling far. Can’t think of anything else other than to say you can make a gun like this.
B.B., what did the rangemaster think of you firing the Evanix Conquest on full auto? And what was the rate of fire? I can’t seem to find that figure anywhere. I’m guessing with an electric motor that it was high.
Victor, thanks for your offer to email and discuss marksmanship. The fact is that I’m always looking to draw on your store of knowledge. However, my online activity is overextended as it is, and besides I wouldn’t want to deprive everyone else of your answers. So, I’ll stick with the blog. Speaking of which, you anticipated my question about how your son dealt with the zombie attackers with the description that you gave. Generally, I’m wondering how to mine this experience for useful doctrine for attack by groups.
One doesn’t need to be knowledgeable about the martial arts to know that this is just about the worst-case scenario. What is probably not known widely is that movies notwithstanding, there are very few actual techniques for dealing with it. By the way, Edith, on the subject of guns and martial arts, there was an interview on this subject with a fellow named Rickson Gracie, a practitioner of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, who at one time was considered the “toughest man in the world” because of his undefeated record in hundreds of fights. I met him once at a seminar. Nice fellow but he impressed one as a tiger in human form. To the question of how best to deal with multiple attackers, his answer was: Sig-Sauer P220. And he affirmed that he was a good shot….
But, what if one doesn’t have their gun? I’ve scraped about and come up with the following decision tree. First, of course, you do not want to engage. To that end, there are certain tactical configurations to beware of such as alleys and places with limited exits or people lined up along a wall such that if you passed them, they could fold in quickly to engulf you. These are all versions of the cardinal principle, not to get bracketed! Otherwise forestall engagement by trying to psychologically control the group. Target the command and control structure by negotiating with or facing down their leader. If things go bad, he’s the first one to eliminate. Undisciplined groups depend heavily on each other and their leader for motivation. If you must engage, pull out your pepper spray. The choking zombies will pose less of a threat even if the spray gets you as well. And of course any sort of improvised weapon in the form of hats, jackets, bags, objects, anything should be utilized.
Even once the engagement has started (and there is no weapon), the next priority is to move rather than fight, but, if you can’t run for freedom, the question is how to move. If there is an exit in sight, you want to concentrate force and get there as fast as possible. You can make use of the fact that it is much easier for an opponent to fight you than to stop you from getting past. The analogy is a cat springing at you with its teeth bared and claws out. If there is no exit, then the best strategy I’ve heard is from Jerry Peterson, sometime trainer of Navy Seals in unarmed combat. You want to get as quickly as possible to the outside of the group and then circle the group. I saw this done very successfully by a guy on YouTube. Another version of this is to move so as to keep the attackers lined up, but with more than two, this gets difficult.
If movement is restricted then the options get sparse indeed. You can tell from martial arts films where even masters like Jackie Chan have no answers. Their opponents attack one at a time in a series of single combats rather than swarming which is what they would really do. The fact is that you cannot simply accelerate the techniques of single combat and hope to prevail. The arms, legs, and angles against you increase exponentially with the number of attackers and there is no way to keep up. One victim described his experience as multiple “leather and grease burgers.” There is, however, a restriction on the assailants. Did you know that you can only be attacked simultaneously by a maximum of six people? There’s no room for more. And this is only if they’re trained to work together. Does this make anyone feel better? 🙂
What you need here are techniques designed for group combat: namely, area clearing techniques. And the only style where I’ve seen this developed is the Russian martial art of Systema. The techniques are too difficult to describe although not difficult to do. You still wouldn’t be in a good situation but you would have a fighting chance.
Even worse than all this, though, is being down on the ground with the enemies standing over you. There are techniques for pulling them down with you, but that still leaves you vulnerable. You need to get back on your feet. Here must be the worst. If the most difficult combat operation is assaulting a defended beach which is the mission of the Marines, then the equivalent for an individual must be trying to get to your feet against a group of assailants. Armed opponents would be a complicating factor, but in principle it’s the same thing. There is actually a way. Against one standing opponent, you want to orient so that your feet are facing them so you can kick. If other assailants are closing in, you spin wildly on your back, kicking out and also rocking back and forth like Weebles (which Wobble but they don’t fall down) and in the chaos, try to rotate to your feet. It’s kind of funny to watch.
Your odds are still pretty long, but at least there’s a method. Otherwise, I like the statement of another Navy Seal trainer. “People often ask me: ‘What if I get hit?’ My answer is: ‘So what? You keep finding targets and hitting them as long as you’re conscious.'” Well-said. Having other people to protect in addition to yourself would complicate things enormously. That would be another story and a pretty short one too where you would just have to cope with circumstances mostly out of your control. So, Victor if there’s anything else from your son’s experience that can add to the storehouse of strategies, do tell.
Matt61
Pepper spray is NASTY I’d rather shoot the baddies with a gun.
It’s not come to that yet but considering it could become “time” in days or hours, I like the idea of a .357 revolver for daily carry around here. I’ve done the research; S&W’s are pretty but Rugers are the way to go.
I will bet that a can of spray red enamel in’t classed as a weapon anywhere in Europe, but I am sure that pepper spray IS. So you’re one step safer with the cops if you ever need to incapacitate a mugger. I don’t think a burst of red paint in the eye is very pleasant, and might break up a modest attack, besides making the boys and girls identifiable!
— pz
The pepper spray has dye in it …. the thing with pepper spray or Mace is, you have to assume you will get some on *you* as well as the bad guys.
I think some type of pepper spray dispensers are less likely to contaminate the shooter as well as the shootee … and the nice thing about pepper spray is, it’s reversible, where a bullet is not. You don’t just wash away a bullet wound with milk!
However, there’s what we call WROL which means Without Rule Of Law. When that time comes, all bets are off. Pepper spray a mugger and his buddies will be hunting for you. WROL could come next week or it could come not within our lifetimes. The prepper saying that applies to this uncertainty is: Better to be prepared 10 years early than a day late.
Matt61,
But as I said before, the same respect for training also applies to guns and self-protection. Just as my son kept his cool, and executed a strategy with this body, the same must be done with a firearm. In fact, with a gun it’s even more critical that you maintain your composure, presence of mind, and focus, because it’s easier to hurt a friend. If a person knows that they have a tendency to panic, then they probably shouldn’t carry a gun for self-protection. Shock can be almost blinding to some.
Victor
Matt,
First of all, big bore airguns came about 300 years before smallbores, so the question to ask is whether it’s worth it to have smallbore airguns.
Second, no, the .308 is not unbearably loud. A .22 PCP isn’t that loud, either, except when compared to a spring-piston gun. The .308 is lounder than a .22, but it doesn’t begin to generate the sharp crack of a firearm.
Finally, when the Conquest went full-auto, there were only two people on the range — me and my shooting buddy. At 100 yards the Conquest is so quiet that it isn’t that noticeable and the closest dwelling to the range is a quarter-mile away. So no problems.
B.B.
Matt61,
My sons situation was essentially a free-for-all, so he used the fact that each individual was distracted, and attacked one at a time. As I was taught, I taught him, but he went through his own formal training. But a key element here is Kime (focused, hard strikes), which translates into intimidation at the individual level. At a minimum, your blocks should be has hard as strikes, and essentially are. Your punches should make your attacker regret that he provoked a response. This, in part, is why Karate is different from boxing. Although important, defense is not the solution. The rules are more open, so it’s fair to punch an attackers arms, or grab their clothes, for example.
In my dojo, we were taught to fight multiple attackers. The method is essentially what Jerry Peterson describes. We only trained against 3 attackers, but the principle is the same for 4 or more. What you must do is keep moving around at least one of your attackers, because that nullifies any additional attackers, who will tend to fall behind. BUT, who ever you must strike, make them pay for being there.
The Navy Seal trainer is exactly right. So what if you get hit! That’s why your training must included both conditioning and the perfection of technique (punches, kicks, blocks, stance, posture, and attitude). That’s why we fought with bare fist’s, except when fighting full contact to the head, at which point we wore small cloth gloves. We’re a lot tougher than our fear will have us believe. I always felt some expression of fear before fighting, and my knees would shake, but once the first punch was thrown, it was all channeled adrenaline. As I’m sure you know, it’s a kind of a high, and you don’t feel the vast majority of the blows that you’re absorbing. Again, that’s why you train. The best book, or the best lecture won’t cut it.
Victor
Victor,
The phrase our army use,probably yours as well is ‘Train hard,fight easy’ in relation to being prepared for battle.
This phrase can also apply to the individual studying a martial art and as you say include taking blows as well as dishing them out.
Your son did a great job.Kept his head and protected as many folk as he could despite risk to himself.
I could have done with a guy like him quite a few times when I drove a taxi for ten years.
What I think would be handy as a force multiplyer is a Kubaton or failing that a thick marker pen or small Maglite torch.
You have to be one tough hombre to withstand a couple of strikes from a Kubaton.
DaveUK
Victor,
Your son did admirably! It’s always easy to coach after the fact, and even kick yourself after the fact, but no one else saw through his eyes and it sounds like his training shone through. Training does indeed teach you how to react.
In my dungeon (dojahng- (Korean for dojo- not Olympic, sport- style TKD), we also trained with multiple attackers and I found what you said is quite true. There will mostly be 1 attacker leading, and while that person will change up, while they’re in the lead they are essentially blocking the others. Just never allow yourself to get between them or you’re gonna take more hits than necessary! Lead them around like a train, constantly changing direction while trying not to become predictable. 2 minutes of this will leave you gasping for air even if you’re in great shape, but still standing if you were successful. We also ran the gauntlet for fun a few times, but that has some rules…
Before getting in the ring…. Dobak and belt straight, check…. shaky knees and butterflies, check…. 🙂
/Dave
/Dave,
Yes, he did. He still has said relatively little about his actions, mostly what went through his mind, and his strategy. The real details we heard from his friends. One of his friends, a champion wrestler was a little perplexed by how my son went about all of this, but sure was glad that he did what he did. This friend did exactly what my son tried to avoid, and allowed himself to get into a tangle with one of the attackers, and got swarmed. My son knew not to commit to a single attacker in that specific way. But my son never allowed himself to feel good about what he had done. Instead, he felt that he had failed because he wasn’t able to protect his best friend, who got hurt the worse. He was fighting off several attackers that were trying to get into the room where his wife and others were waiting in safety when he saw his best friend get attacked across the room. This is why he cried while trying to tell my wife what had happened. His entire focus was this perceived failure. He said little else about it for weeks.
Victor
Victor,
I hope that your son eventually realizes that this wasn’t a failure on his part. Not everything that happens is entirely in our control and sometimes bad stuff just happens. As much as we’d like to, we can’t be everywhere at once. It’s really easy to beat yourself up over what one of my instructors called “the what if’s” or the “if only’s”. It can be very difficult to accept what was… Sounds like he’s getting on though, which is good.
/Dave
/Dave,
Yes, has did put it all in perspective. But I somewhat know how he felt. I don’t lose very easy, and what he felt was much bigger than that. His friend is fine now, so it’s all water under the bridge.
Victor
BB,
I like your comment about Mr Quackenbush’s airgun technology being planted firmly in the ’50’s. He has, IMHO, perfected a few designs and adapted them to different calibers. Like the 1-1/8″ air tube diameter. I guess it allows him to sort of mass produce different guns all at the same time. I think, even though he probably has more big bores out there than maybe everybody else in the US combined, his guns are still classics. Nice lines, nice materials and finishes, and they work exactly like they are supposed to. Kinda like, and I mean this in a very complimentary way, ordering a Quarter Pounder at McDonalds: you know exactly what you are going to get.
Your comment about intelligent shooters is important too. With no gauge on the gun, if you want to shoot accurately at a distance you have to be careful with filling any of his guns. And that brings to mind your recent report that mentioned Air Force was adding a gauge to their bottle. That created quite a pile-on, but I find it interesting that I don’t hear the same for the Quackenbush guns. Or maybe I just haven’t listened closely enough.
I am very fortunate to be in possession of a QB gun that looks very similar to the gun in this report. It is very straight forward and it knows what its purpose is. I took it to the range last week and it turned some heads, which I am sure is not uncommon. It is just a darn nice gun!
But that brings me to the question I had when you mentioned eye relief. When I took this gun to the range, I hurriedly pulled a Bug Buster on low mounts off a break barrel I had. (11mm dovetail, not weaver, on both guns .) Even though the pull was within a half inch, I had to move the scope very far forward to straddle the loading port, and the cheek piece made it almost impossible to get my eye low enough for proper alignment. A very unsatisfactory experience with that scope, which on the break barrel was perfect. So: scope placement, eye relief, mount height….. for me that is a lot of trial and error and I am never really sure when I get it right when I look for that uniform black ring around my field of view. I see that your Scope Fundamentals Blog earlier this week is Part 1, so I guess you will be covering the “installation/placement” issues in the future?
As always, thanks very much,
Lloyd
Lloyd,
That’s an interesting observation you made about the AirForce pressure gauge. Yes, I meant it when I said that Quackenbush’s customers have to be thinking shooters. Shooters who own chronographs and know how to use them — not for bragging rights claims — but to tune their airguns with the correct fill pressure.
Of course a Q’bush rifle will get only 2-5 shots per fill, where an AirForce gun gets many more. So it is more difficult to keep track of the shot count when it tops 20 — especially when the shooting sessions are spread over many days.
As for the eye relief of the scope — good point. And also the height of the scope is very important, if you want the gun to fit you naturally. So of course I will put that into my discussion of scopes. If I seem to forget, please remind me.
I also need to talk at length about scope mounts, because there are still many airgunners who are wed to one-piece mounts. While they work well in limited situations, two-piece mounts are almost always the more flexible choice, and they give you so many more options.
B.B.
B.B.
Thanks for the reply. Re: the Air Force gauge: I know that making an indexable gauge in that very narrow region on the neck adapter was no small feat. The area where the gauge had to fit was narrower than the thread diameter of any standard gauge I have seen.
Your last paragraph about one piece mounts nailed me for sure. I will pay attention!
Lloyd
“I also need to talk at length about scope mounts”
B.B.,
Very happy to hear this.
In my opinion the importance of proper scope mounts is often overlooked and priority of price point rules most airgunners choices. What is a “proper” scope mount is confusing to many airgunners since dovetail widths vary, stock combs and drop vary, eye relief on scopes vary, human head size varies, a built in scope stop may be a critical criteria to lessen your choices, etc. Tough for us mere mortals to know what the proper scope mount really is.
It seems everyone likes accurate guns and most of the airgun internet chatter orbits around how to get their gun to shoot more accurately. Different pellet? Different hold? Better scope? More practice? Aftermarket trigger? etc. etc. I submit that many airgunners would be able to shoot their guns better if they replaced their scope mounts with those that position their scope to require a repeatable cheek weld. This often requires purchasing multiple mounts and trying them since the same scope, same gun and same mount may fit one person but not another.
I’ve often ribbed you about your “chin welds”.
You need to admit to yourself that you’ve been shooting guns longer than most. Many years longer. Most importantly you need to acknowledge that you shoot more rounds through airguns in a month than the majority of airgunners do in a year and you’ve been doing that for years. You can make a chin weld work because of your experience that I think you take for granted. Most shooters can’t shoot accurately with a poor cheek weld. Combine this with the typical cheap scope that airgunners use that is filled with parallax because it can’t be dialed out or because the airgunner doesn’t know how to dial it out and you’ve got a frustrated airgunner that can’t figure out why his groups won’t shrink. Mind you, he’s tried everything but since his scope isn’t moving he never suspects his scope mounts may be the culprit.
Sorry to be so long winded. Know you’re busy. Glad to hear you’re going to talk about scope mounts.
kevin
Kevin,
You know it! Proper scope mounts, and base, are VERY important. In this case, the selection of Weaver base and rings was a good choice. My son and I tried different rings on the Savage until we settled with Weaver.
Victor
Kevin,
No one is more aware of my chin weld than I, believe me! I only shoot that way because I cannot keep tearing scopes and mounts off guns to try for perfection with every new test gun.
However, when I set up a gun for myself that will be for my personal shooting pleasure, you can bet I pay more attention to where the eyepiece of the scope is. But even then there are challenges. My Remington Rolling Block that has a Unertl scope needs enough room for the external hammer to be thumbed back, so the scope has to be mounted higher than I like.
One common problem that airguns have is the PCP with the magazine that sticks up proud of the receiver. They make mounting a scope a challenge. Some springers that have sliding compression chambers make you mount the scope high for clearance at the loading port.
In all of my firearms and airguns I bet I don’t have five that are set up the way I would like them. And the few that are set up well are my favorite scoped guns.
B.B.
B.B.,
Of course you don’t have time to mount scopes ideally on every gun you test. Nor is it necessary. For you.
This speaks to one of my points. Setting up mounts properly takes time especially when you may have to test several different types. Lots of screws. Lots of fiddling. I think many airgunners are put off by this task since they’re unaware of the importance and would rather believe there are easier fixes for their poor shooting.
One common problem that airguns have is that they can’t be drilled and tapped for mounts LOL!
You added some great additional criteria for choosing proper rings/mounts for airguns. Since we’ve got a good list started I’ll add a few more:
Do your mounts need to compensate for droop?
Is your scope tube 3/4″, 1″ or 30mm?
Do you have short dovetails or short rails like the old walthers, diana’s, weihrauch’s, etc. which require an adapter since cantilever mounts don’t even provide enough scope ring separation for most scopes? Dovetail to weaver adapters provide the extended base, clamping pressure to existing short rail/dovetail and also can come with elevation adjustment for droop to address this scope mounting problem.
kevin
Kevin,
I have saved your comments. The one about the short scope base on some rifles is particularly interesting. I never thought of it, but how many new airgunners are prepared for it?
B.B.
B.B.,
Here’s the Pyramyd AIR product that makes scoping many guns possible. It’s a shame that more airgunners don’t know about it. The few that do sing its praises (look at the reviews):
/product/b-square-17021-11mm-to-weaver-adapter-adjustable?a=601
Yes, there are cheaper dovetail to weaver adapters but this adapter has built in adjustment for elevation and is wonderful solution for droopers at the same time.
Another benefit to this neat ring/mount accessory is that you only need to loosen the 4 sidescrews to move your already mounted scope in rings onto another gun. Very slick if you’re needing to do pellet testing in multiple guns that are unscoped and don’t have time to perfectly mount scopes on each and every one. I have a scope permanently mounted on one of these adapters and it’s usually the first scope I mount on a new gun since it’s so quick and easy. It also gives me an indication of ring height when I do have time to mount a scope permanently.
In my opinion these are a last resort for a permanent scope mounting solution since they introduce additional, potential, misalignment issues. There’s no substitute that I know of if you need it though.
I’m getting more and more concerned that you’re going to run out of topics for the blog.
kevin
Kevin,
Yeah, right!
I have so many topics that I’m now writing a series of articles for the website, just to have more room to publish. I think I won’t run out of things to talk about.
B.B.
Kevin,
I second everything you said, especially when shooting springers where everything totally changes between shots. I think that’s why some folks say shooting PCPs is too easy, LOL. The only thing I really know about shooting with scopes is that the visual black circle that appears around the round field of view you see when looking thru the scope, is supposed to be even in width all the way around, not lopsided, or sharp on one side (or top or bottom) and fuzzy on the other. Then for the next shot, that black ring should look identical. That cheeky chin weld will give you that, but only if the eye relief and scope height are just right so that, as BB said, you “naturally” see the right scope picture. So I have the right idea, I think, but how do you get there? Like you said, a pile of mounts to get the right height, but front to back for me is pretty tough.
Lloyd
Lloyd,
You said, “front to back for me is pretty tough.”
Cantilever mounts are your friends since they can either move the scope forward if you have an extended eye relief scope or switch them around and extend the scope rearward for short eye relief scopes.
kevin
Lloyd,
Good point about the dark ring. In addition, I actually leave my front sights on after mounting a scope. Yes, it looks funny, but it creates a faint, blurry shadow at the bottom of the sight picture that moves with the eye’s position while looking through the scope. When the shadow is centered, I know that my eye is positioned properly and my groups shrink.
/Dave
/Dave and Kevin,
Thanks for those extra tips. Those are things I might never figure out on my own.
Lloyd
B.B.,
Are there any big-bore springer’s? Anything remotely in the class of this rifle? I’m just curious of there’s something more self-contained.
Victor
Victor,
There are big bore springers, but they aren’t what you want. My dart gun is a big bore that’s also a spring piston airgun.
Read about it here:
/blog/2010/12/gallery-dart-gun-part-1/
I have been SLOWLY working on getting this gun back in order and hope one day soon to do a Part 2.
B.B.
B.B.,
A few days ago in, “Some Scope Fundamentals: Part 1” you wrote “Talk all you want about big scopes. Try carrying around one like this for a couple hours! A Daystate Harrier is dwarfed by this monster Tasco Custom Shop 8-40×56.”
Yeah…but don’t they make a lovely couple:)
Function is primary when it comes to shooting but sometimes the aesthetics of Form are just so pleasing to the eye. This is true of the Quackenbush .308 and others. Of course when Form and Function nicely complement each other, so much the better.
Ken
Ken,
That Daystate Harrier was my field target rifle for a couple years. The scope made it so top-heavy that all I ever did with it was carry it around the course at Damascus. I really meant what I said in that remark, but it took owning the guns with big scopes to find out.
B.B.
B.B., I do believe you. My Titan with the 4×16-40AO Centerpoint is heavy so I can imagine what Harrier was like with that scope. After this weekend, the Titan will be too heavy to even think about, at least for a while. I did pre-OP today and go under the knife next Monday. As I write this I recognize that you didn’t have the luxury of pre-OP a year and a half ago.
Ken,
I wish you all the best next Monday. I will pray for you.
Yes, I did pre-ops when I wasn’t in the hospital. I did quite a few of them, in fact.
Weight, BP, blood type, X-rays and whatever specialty stuff you need.
B.B.
Thanks, B.B. And, yes, that sounds like pre-OP. I hope you can have a lengthy reprieve from that.
Things keep changing. Today, I even had an EKG while sitting on the same bench where she drew blood and checked my blood clotting. Wham, bam and thank you!
I’ll be reading the blog to be sure (and I’ll have a bit more time to read it for at least a few weeks).
Ken
As winter drags on, my supply of chrono printer paper dwindles, and my pellet trap turns into a solid slab of lead….
I have decided to post a few observations based on a few things I have seen with three different springers.
First off, I am talking about lead pellets only. I am not necessarily talking about any particular head type. When I say lighter or heavier, I only mean the relationship between two different pellets….not the lightest or heaviest available.
The lighter pellet does not always shoot faster than the heavier pellet. It can shoot a lot slower.
The lightest pellets do not always shoot the fastest compared to any other.
The lightest pellets, even when the fastest, do not always produce more energy than heavier pellets.
A tighter fit does not always make a pellet shoot faster. Niether does a looser fit.
Head size, skirt size, skirt shape, weight, and composition all seem to be involved in how well the power plant likes the pellet.
Pellets that extract the most power from the power plant usually cause less noise and vibration.
A pellet that seems to be a wrong choice in weight can shoot smoothly as a pellet that looks the best for the power plant. The power plant seems to have unexpected alternate choices in ammo.
How this pans out on paper at a distance is another story. I have only been looking at chrono stats, FPE levels, vibration, and noise. Only looking at what makes the gun happy. A pellet in free flight under field conditions is the final thing to look at. May have to settle for some compromises. I even expect it.
twotalon
twotalon,
Would you say that aerodynamics is a factor?
Victor
(i.e., a dominant factor)?
Aerodynamics has nothing to do with the things that I mentioned. It’s all between the pellet and the gun, and getting the pellet out of the muzzle. A lot of other things can happen in free flight.
We are dealing with two different animals…interior and exterior ballistics. I was looking at interior or internal ballistics.
twotalon
Mr. BB I know I’m a little late with this post but…..
I have purchased a used DAQ .308 and have shot her over 300 times!!! Yes sir, 300 shots! I have tried many fill pressures finding that 2900psi is the absolute best for mine. Shooting Mr. HP 110gr bullets at 100 yds under 2″ and Hunter Supply 118gr under 3″. Both bullets under 1″ at 65yds and under. At 75yds she opens up a little, but we all know that she’s a hunter not a bench rest. After 25 shots i clean the barrel with Hoppe 9 and then shoot one shot thru her. My groups are for 3 shot groups. These guns are awesome, I have gotten into the big bore air guns!!! They are the best. Thank you for these great reviews that you always provide us with. Take care and God Bless.
Chacho,
I plan to test my Quackenbush .308 with the new .30 cal. pellets sometime. I bet they shoot!
B.B.