by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Gamo’s Hunter Extreme 1250 was a big, beautiful wood-stocked magnum rifle. Today’s guns have synthetic stocks but similar powerplants.
This report covers:
• Very sensitive to hold
• Today’s accuracy test: Round 1
• Round 2
• JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets
• Gamo owners justified
• 50 yards comes next
I shot the .22-caliber Gamo Hunter Extreme 1250 at 25 yards for accuracy, and I learned a lot! I confirmed what I thought was happening at 50 yards when I first tried out the rifle in Part 1.
Very sensitive to hold
When I shot this rifle in Ohio at the Pyramyd AIR Cup, I was amazed that I hit a 1.50-inch killzone offhand at 50 yards. Then, in Part 1, I had it at my local rifle range. I shot one trial group of 10, just to see how good it shot. I was amazed when the first 2 shots went into the same hole, though that sort of thing does happen sometimes and then the shots scatter all over the place. But this time they didn’t This time, the group grew slowly as more shots were fired. That’s indicative of 2 things — me getting tired, but more than that — nerves!
As powerful as this Gamo breakbarrel is, it is also extremely sensitive to hold. All ultra-powerful breakbarrels are, in my experience. Any small change in the vibration patterns of the stock will send the pellet in a different direction. Don’t ask me why powerful breakbarrels are like this and powerful underlevers aren’t — I really don’t know. But I do know they are.
When you start to really concentrate, your groups can get worse. Because you aren’t actually concentrating. You’re tensing up and causing the rifle to be held differently when you don’t even notice it.
After the 50-yard group, I talked to Rich Shar on the phone. Rich modified this Gamo air rifle, and he says he’s killed squirrels at tremendous distances with it. That means he’s comfortable with the rifle, so I have to try to be comfortable with it, as well. And that means relaxing for every shot beyond what I normally do. This is a technique that few shooters know about. It has been described as Zen by some writers. I wouldn’t call it that, but I do say that I’m in the zone when I shoot this way.
Today’s accuracy test: Round 1
For today’s test, I was at 25 yards with the rifle rested. That will tell me if the pellets are good enough for 50 yards. I actually shot today’s test over the period of 2 days, since cocking a 47-lb. springer over 100 times is not conducive to the best accuracy. Neither is the additional relaxation technique I’m using.
I started with the Crosman Premier dome — the same pellet I shot well in Ohio, and again at 50 yards just week ago at my rifle range. This time, the first 5 shots all went into the same small hole. I will estimate that it was no more than 0.20 inches between centers. I have to estimate the size, because shots 6 though 10 opened it up to 1.021 inches. How exasperating that was to watch!
The first 5 were really tight; but by completing the 10-shot group, I opened it to 1.021 inches! That stray shot below the group was shot 9!
Then I shot and shot and shot — trying different holds and even laying the rifle directly on the bag. All of which convinced me that a soft artillery hold I’d used the first time was the right hold. I also tried other pellets at this time, but I’m not going to name them, because I believe my confidence was shot for this session. So, I put the rifle away and waited 24 hours.
Round 2
For the second session, I started with Premier domes, again, but this time they just didn’t group for me. I tried a couple different holds, including my off hand way out on the forearm. Nothing worked. All, I did was prove what I said earlier about this rifle being sensitive to hold.
Then, I did something novel. I photographed the next group after 5 shots were fired, and then completed the group! And this time I captured the poltergeist’s image!
JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellets
I tried the 18.1-grain JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy pellet for this group because I wasn’t real confident of the Premier. It will still shoot very well, mind you, but I have to have absolute confidence to do what I’m trying to do with this rifle (my special extra relaxation technique). Rich is so used to it that it feels natural to him, but I shoot so many different air rifles all the time that I don’t have time to get that familiar with any of them.
The first 5 JSB Jumbo Heavy pellets were really tight. Target is still on the pellet trap.
The first 5 shots went into another group that appeared to be about 0.20 inches, but I didn’t measure it. Then shots 6 through 10 opened the group to 0.618 inches. Actually, that’s not too bad for 10 shots at 25 yards, but the difference between the first 5 shots and the 10-shot group is what I want you to see.
Completing the group opened it to 0.618 inches. While that’s not too bad for 25 yards, it’s significantly larger than the 5-shot group. That’s not just statistics — it’s nerves!
I can hold this rifle well for 5 shots, but apparently that’s when I lose my edge. This report isn’t about my flawed shooting abilities, anyway. It’s about what Rich Shar’s tune has done to this rifle. And what he’s done has made the rifle easier to shoot well for the average shooter, which is me, this time.
Gamo owners justified
I’ve read many reports by owners of these powerful Gamo rifles that extoll their accuracy and power in the field. But this is the first time I’ve actually experienced one. I’ve tested a great many powerful Gamo breakbarrels and never before did I get results like these. I did get them with the old Whisper they made many years ago, but that rifle was nowhere near this power class. It was very tame and pleasant to shoot, and as I recall, it was very accurate.
50 yards comes next
The point of this test was to find one or two pellets that could be tested at 50 yards. I think I have them. I think I may shoot 5-shot groups instead of 10-shot groups in this test, just so I don’t blow it for the rifle. Stay tuned!
Considering the cocking effort I am not being surprised that you only do well on the first 5 shots. I don’t suppose things would improve if you took at least an hour’s break between 5-shot strings?
Siraniko,
I probably would, but I never have the time for that. So I have to learn how to live with the challenges of the task.
B.B.
G’day BB
Can you get someone to do the cocking and you do the shooting?
Cheers Bob
BB
If we are not going to be at least told what has been done to this gun to improve it so much then I do not even see the sense much less the need to report on it as it has been my belief and sense of the reason for this blogs existence is to share and improve the interest and enjoyment of the sport of air gunning and by showing us this gun and telling us how wonderful it is in accuracy and smoothness but not allow us to know what has been done to make it this way is a disservice to all the faithful readers and air gunners that are more than willing to share any and all information with each other on this blog so that we all can gain more enjoyment and improve our own guns and shooting skills as a whole for the good of the sport.
I feel that by the owner of this gun not allowing you to at least tell us what has been done to this gun to make it shoot the way it does is not only unfair and selfish, but I feel that you should have refused to do a review of this gun without the agreement between you and the owner to allow you to reveal this information to us because by not doing so is to me akin to dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit tied just out of reach of the carrot.
BD
OH MAN! I LOST IT ALL IN NEVER, NEVER LAND! I thought and typed for almost a half hour and when I posted, it went away! OK, here is the short of it.
My first air rifle was a Gamo CFX. It was a real good shooter after I replaced the trigger. Is the CFR as good? I do not know or personally care as it is way too ugly for me to consider owning.
In my most humble of opinions Crosman, Gamo, etc. do not make an air rifle that I truly desire to own. None of the make one that pops your eyes and makes your knees weak. Also, all of them need to be “fixed” right out of the box. Even when “fixed”, they are still not up to par with the TX200 and the like.
Maybe one day these guys will build something I want, but not yet.
RR
I can understand your view on the lower priced air guns such as crosmans and especially gamos as maybe the older gamos where of better quality than the whisper that I just recently bought and sold a week later as it was more like a kids toy gun than an adult air gun in my opinion which by the way is not very well or completely educated in the new world of air guns.
But as far as crosman goes I can and will say that they do build very well built and quality air guns for the reason that as far as I know there is no other air gun manufacture out there that supplies all of the owners manuals and parts schematics as openly and freely to the public as they do and also still try to stock and make available parts for as many of their air guns as could be possibly be expected.
Try going to a car manufacture and asking for a part for a 40 year old car and see how fast you get laughed right out of the dealership.
I can say from personnel experience that my 46 year old crosman 1400 is in 95 % as good of condition now as it was when I bought it new and it was used and abused for 15 years from me being 8 years old until my mid twenties as I would campout on the islands of Cocoa beach Florida every weekend from my sixth grade years until my tenth grade years in the brackish water of the intercostal waterway and that gun had been dropped in sand water and just about any other media you could put it through as an eight year old kid would do and it was never taken apart until a year ago when I pulled it out of my closet after sitting fro over 28 years and all I did was oil the piston and bolt probe o-ring up and wipe the dust off of it and pimp it up and start shooting it and it shot as good as the day it was stuck in my closet.
So I can say that crosman does build a good quality gun.
I will agree that it is no Beeman or TX or HW or any other high end air gun but then I only paid 30 bucks for it. I would love to own a high end air gun but I doubt that I will ever pay the price that they want for one as to me I would rather buy a lower priced model and do the work to improve it to be as good or better than the high dollar guns just as I have done with all the cars and bikes that I have owned and still own.
So I am just glad that there is something out there that everyone can afford and enjoy and feel good that what they paid for it was a fair price.
BD
Beeman don’t make dudely squat. They just slap their name on others airguns. The good ones are made by Weihrauch and the others are made by Wang Po Industries.
I like tinkering with them also, but then I sell them and buy others and fix them up and sell them. Hopefully soon I will have built up enough assets this way to get the top shelf sproinger I want to keep.
I’ll still fool with the others, but not for keeping. I’ll need to build up the assets for the PCP.
RidgeRunner,
And that’s how it’s done. Buy low, sell high. Some things never change 🙂
Edith
I have also been working my way up the quality chain. Right now I am working on Feinwerkbaus. These are going to be hard to let go.
RR
I know of a FWB that hopefully one day in the near future I will be able to get hold of for a fair price and it is not a new gun by any count.
I can tell you as a matter of fact that I will find the money to buy this gun when it becomes available to me as it is a 1970 model; 124 that is in pristine condition and shoot like a dream and is light and accurate.
I know this because it is owned by a good friend of mine that gave me the privilege of rebuilding for him six months ago and I will agree with you on the fact that this particular 124 is a very high quality gun and worth what he will likely want for it.
BD
RR
I was not saying who made what just that what guns are supposed to be the cream of the crop.
I am glad that you are like me in that I buy cheap and fix them up also but my problem is I never seem to get around to selling them so I guess to some extent I am a hoarder.
I probably will never buy any new high end gun as to me there is not much made any more that is worth two nickels, but I will eventually find the right one used at the right price and end up with one that way just as I have most everything else i have .
I have only bought one new truck and one new bike in my lifetime and still have the truck but sold the bike because it was not worth keeping it as it was not what it was made out to be.
BD
I would strongly advise you to stay away from airgun shows. If and when you ever actually hold a TX200 MKIII with walnut stock in your hands, you are going to find it difficult to think of anything else from that moment on. It is like driving a Toyota Corolla for years and then taking a Rolls Royce for a spin.
RR
I have very strong will power and unless the TX is at the price I am willing to pay for it I can just walk away and as far as a walnut versus beech stock is concerned it make no difference to me as I am not much on flash or show but rather its all in the go.
BD
Pesonally, I am really hoping that Crosman will catch on and build a real nice sproinger in this class. I would buy it then.
RR
Yea I am with you on that as I would much rather my money be spent here than in the rest of the world, but then if they did make a high end gun it most likely would be made somewhere other than here in the good ole US of A.
BD
I think Rich probably just did all the various things that we know helps remove vibration and improves smoothness. I’d not be surprised if the made a new o-ringed piston head as well as buttons. Did he have a reason for keeping his modifications secret?
Derrick,
Yes, he does. Please read my reply to Buldawg.
B.B.
Derrick
I am sure he has done many mods to this gun and has made huge gains in it performance and accuracy.
I know now why he is reluctant to divulge what has been done to this gun as of yet since BB stated to me that it is still in development, I guess that it just would have been better to know that from the start than to find it out in the third report.
BD
Hello everyone , I am glad to see so many comments on my gun . Just to let everyone know ,this is still being evaluated by me . There is no harder critic on this product but myself . My goal it to have a product that is and will be the best that it can be . No it will no be made in China but , here in the USA . I am still trying to improve this product this takes time . I can’t wait to see how Mr.Gaylord does at 50 yards. By the way, Mr.Gaylord try having someone else cock the gun . When I tested the gun at 20 shots,I did get better grouping when my boys and I took turns cocking it . The suspense is killing me!
Rich
I would like to apologize to you if I came across as being mad or upset as to you not wanting it known as to just what all you have done to this gun as I was not aware that it was a work in progress for a possible saleable item in the future.
I had asked BB in the first report if we could know what had been done to this gun and was told no, but without an explanation as to why and that is my only complaint is that it should have been told to all of us here on this blog that this guns was till in development and until it has completed it testing and development that details could not be released.
I would have completely understood as I used to work for Harley in their research and development facility here in Alabama until 09 when they moved to Arizona so I now all to well about not letting the public know what you are testing as we would get brand new motorcycles in to our facility and immediately paint them completely flat black with spray cans to disguise there looks when out in public.
BD
Possibly a bit harsh 🙂
But I do know where you are coming from, this rifle will have some sort of piston dampening system, a valved transfer port or some sort of piston porting, all things that have been done before but not followed up, however it looks like this guy is going to market it and is reluctant to give details at this point, understandably.
Venom and Lazaglide etc were releasing guns for review long before they marketed too, so this isn’t without precedent.
Home tuners will copy it, so he has a limited period of marketing ability that he doesn’t want to lose.
Think how many of us button our pistons Lazaglide style, sleeve our springs Venom style without even paying lip service to the companies that developed them.
Dom
I guess that my bedside manor can be a bit out of place at times and I may have sounded a bit harsh but I am just wanting to learn all I can about air guns that is possible for my own enjoyment and knowledge just as I did with being a mechanic and taking the ASE certifications to be a master certified automotive and diesel mechanic back in 1977 and have maintained that certification until it expires in may of 2015 as I can no longer work due to health issues.
And yes I can agree that home tuners would copy it me being one of them although it would not be with a gamo, but it would only be for my own use and pleasure.
I guess I have always been the type of person that is willing to teach and help anyone learn that is willing to learn from my years of experience as a mechanic and because of that I find it frustrating when some one is unwilling to share info.
BD
Dom,
Very well stated and spot on in my opinion.
Just too easy for folks to quickly steal years of work from someone that has footed the bill for the R & D.
kevin
BD,
Here is a thought. Perhaps something is being done about this design and we don’t want to queer the deal. Have you thought of that?
Rich spent several years and a lot of money and he is still improving the design, even now. He has plans for it that he would like to be able to realize without the challenge of a thousand guys knocking him off.
He thought I would like to test the effectiveness of his work, and I thought that my readers would like to see a project while it is still ongoing.Apparently this angers you.
I advise you to skip past the reports you don’t like and look for the things you enjoy. But I have a lot of readers who are still interersted in finding new things out and I don’t want to overlook them.
B.B.
BB
This does not anger me in any way as I am interested in what has been done for my own knowledge and no other agenda.
But maybe if you would have stated the fact at the beginning of the report that this gun is still in progress of being developed then maybe it would not seem as if you are reporting on something that is or will be out of the reach of the average individual that has an interest in improving his own collections and personnel air guns.
I have come to this blog because of the sharing and camaraderie that occurs her rather than the bickering and condescending attitudes you get at other blogs.
I have no desire whatsoever to Knock Rich off of his designing or plans to possibly bring this gun to market either as an optional upgrade to a stock gun or as a new product from the word go.
I guess I just have become accustomed to what I thought the whole idea of this blog was about and that is for a sharing and helpful place for everyone to gain more knowledge of their interest in the air gunning sport.
I guess my only complaint then would be we were not made aware that this gun was still in development and was a work in progress that may be possibly be a item that would be available to the public in the future.
I apologize if I came off as being mad as that was not the case as I am just very interested in learning all that I can on modifying and improving my own air guns so that I can get all the performance from them that is possible as I have done with everything I have ever owned. I am never satisfied with anything in stock form as there is always more that can be gained or achieved from it.
BD
Howdy B-dawg, ya cranky ol’ poop! From one old saddle tramp to another, 2 words, V-Rod. Happy Thanxsgiving. Shoot/ride safe,
Beaz
Hey Beazer
Happy T-day to you also and yea I guess to many years in the saddle does tend to make us old cranky farts but would not change a thing and yes the Vrod has my name all over it as it is what got me my job at the Talladega Test facility in 1998 when it was first being develop by Harley and they needed a mechanic with computer and fuel injection experience and at the time I was a master certified GM and Cadillac technician so they Vrod was piece of cake as it use all Delphi sensors and computer system so one little word of wisdom. If you ever need a computer sensor for one you can go to a GM dealer and buy it and slap it on the Vrod and away you go.
BD
BB
Do you remember when I was getting the double tube conversion made by Lloyd Sikes for my 1st generation Marauder.
Mine was the first one made by him. He got the kit to me right away and I had it on the gun for probably 6 months before he released them.
Here is the manic words. (He did not want anything said till he had it all worked out and ready to sell).
If your marketing something why in the world would you put it on a blog that is read everywhere and not expect somebody to want to know about.
Sorry but don’t show a kid a bag of candy and say sorry not today go play and have fun somewhere else.
Guess what that kids going yo think the next time you come up to him. I ain’t going to say what I would of done when I was a kid. But I’m sure there is other kids out there that would of done the same.
BB you got a very informative blog here. And you got a whole bunch of knowledge and I’m thankful that this blog is here. But I had to say what I had to say.
GF1,
I am still testing an airgun that will blow the doors off the competition when it is released. I mentioned it one time, two months ago. This is a second time I have mentioned it.
Come next year there’s gonna be some fun, Lucy!
B.B.
BB
Good for you that you haven’t done a report on it yet before you were ready. 😉
B.B.,
I hope you can answer this. Regarding the new product you are testing, if I am on the verge of pulling the plug on a new springer would you advise that I wait until January? That is when you indicated you would reveal this new gun. Thanks.
G&G
G&G,
Buy your new springer.
B.B.
B.B.,
Oh well, I was hoping when you said it would blow the doors off the competition that it was a springer.
G&G
BB,
I’m with G&G. They had best not wait too long before they announce AND bring to market this baby or I will not be able to swing it for another year or two.
GF1,
It’s called tantalizing people. Marketing. Raising expectations. Developing a market.
It’s not unusual for a manufacturer to tell dealers about a new gun that they then release on their site — only to find out that the pictures are actually extremely good artist renderings (drawings), and the actual product isn’t in production and hasn’t even been vetted to go into production.
At least Rich Shar had a functioning product Tom could test. I cannot say the same for many airgun makers who have thrown ideas together and acted like they were finished products. Then, 3 months later, after many pre-orders have been taken, the gun is actually scrapped because the manufacturer just couldn’t make it work even close to what was promised.
Quite honestly, I’m kind of surprised at how much you’re writing about this. Either you think everything should be disassembled to reveal the goodies or you are really, really, really, really taken by this upgrade and want it the worst way in the world 🙂
Edith
Edith
Spot on with everything you said.
Including what you said about me. Yes taking it apart and yes wanting it if its available. Can’t help it I have been that way since I was a kid.
I’m always on a quest for the best. 🙂
Edith,
Didn’t Crosman do just this with a TX like gun just a short tine ago?
David
Sorta kinda. They were planning on selling the Mav77, but the deal fell through. Likely the Chinese refused to improve their quality control.
I do not see any problem at all with Tom sharing his reviews , we are simply being shown that something new is in the near future and heading are way as air gunners. what is wrong with that?
who cares if the product is not out, the fact that it can tame the recoil on thees beastly magnums is the real point.
I am glad to here of it. Thanks Tom I am very glad you shared this with us.
Mike
Mike
Yep I got a amazing tune on this pcp gun Im working on.
You wanna hear about it.
Please say no because I’m really not ready to talk about. But it sure shoots nice.
Sorry.
NO I don’t want to here about it.
High powered magnum springer’s being made docile, and able to get amazing groups, glad its soon to be in the near future .
That’s all I need glad to here of it!
Thanks and have a wonderful day.
Over and out on this topic.
Unless there is some usefull info to share.
People can go get the vortek kits in the mean time, haven’t tried it but if Richs mod is better he’ll be going against them. Might be a conflict of interest but BB could pit a vortek mod against Richs mod.
RDNA
There is something I could say right now.
But I said I was over and out.
Sorry, I missed the whole conversation about the mystery tune. Hows the pg2 feel in the TX?
RDNA
The gun does not move when the trigger is pulled.
When the reticle is placed on the bullseye and the trigger us pulled the reticle is still setting in the exact same place.
Zero movement. None. No vibration no noise. Just a thump on the target when the pellet hits.
It got dark before I could start getting any more shots on the target.
What little I shot it I know its going to be good.
I could do with some carrot right about now also.
Or is this just all cliff hanger?
Carel
Ugh, I know what it’s like to be doing everything right as far as you know and just watching pellets scatter like flushed quail. Hold sensitivity is making me an un-fan of magnum springers (I have a Nitro Piston 2 but can’t hit a thing with it. I think I’m concentrating too hard on relaxing . . .).
Also very curious about what kind of tune was performed on this gun . . .
Have you tried a firm hold? I believe B.B. had good luck with that,on the NP2.
Thanks, Sal. Read everything I can find on this gun and tried a variety of holds. Occasionally I’ll think I’ve “got it” for a few shots, then pfft! She’s one sensitive gal . . .
One answer to a Magnum springer that isn’t particularly hold sensitive or hard to cock
Diana 48/52
22ft/lb in 22, 35lb cocking effort and dime size groups at 50 yards.
Might be more expensive, but Crosman Schmosman I’m afraid.
GF1,
From what I have been taught here and elsewhere, a longer barrel on a sproinger only buys you leverage for cocking. The pellet achieves maximum velocity within the first eight inches or so. After that it is just coasting or slowing down from friction. The barrel on the TX200 is only ten inches long.
As another example, you can go to the PA site and elsewhere and compare the Diana 31 and 34 Pro models and you will find them with long and short barrels, but the same velocities.
There is some other reason for that unusual amount of drop. Maybe the LGV drops more than claimed?
RR
Maybe that could be the reason for the longer barrel on the break barrel gun.
But I know from the guns I have messed with that the velocity has risen on longer barrel when comparing same caliber.
And I will name the guns right now I’m talking about. Talon SS,1377 with steel breech,2240 on Co2 with steel breech and .177 cal. barrels, 2240 with hi-pac with steel breech and .177 cal. barrels.
I don’t know the results other people have had but that’s what my guns did. They sped up with a longer barrel.
Now when talking spring or nitro piston a shorter barrel could be faster I haven’t cut any springer barrels. I can only say what I know from the guns listed above. And not what I have heard but from what I have done.
GF1,
Now you are talking a whole different critter there. Those are PCPs. The longer barrels allow the gas pressure more time to exert force on the projectile.
If I am not mistaken, the optimum barrel length for CO2 is likely between eighteen and twenty-four inches and likely more toward the bottom end.
With HPA, the barrel length is more determined by handling characteristics. You would be very impressed with the performance of your Marauder if you put a thirty-two inch barrel on it. You would probably have to tune it way down to keep it from going supersonic and your shot count would go way up. Just changing over to a twenty-four inch Lothar Walther will amaze you.
RR
Yea I jumped the gun with my reply.
I forgot the important words. What I tried. And pcp’s. Oh well and here we go life is still tick’n on and were talk’n airguns. 🙂
Dom,
My thoughts exactly. Over here, too much thought is being given over to going supersonic. That is why my next sproinger will be made in Europe. As you stated, with such power restrictions, you must concentrate on shot placement. Also, it is my understanding that most over there will only buy one, maybe two, so they are going to want the absolute best quality they can get.
“What good is 500+FPE if you cannot hit what you are shooting at?”
If you’re all stuck at 12ft/lb then you gain sales by a better trigger, or prettier looks, or a better finish, the limit sort of improves the breed
A similar thing happens with the home market Japanese motorcycles, they have a 400cc/60hp limit (unless you jump through hoops) and that has turned out exquisite machines, built like Faberge eggs, to try to gain home sales.
It’s sometimes a hidden advantage to have a levelling criteria.
My Diana 52 or HW77 will put a 177 pellet almost clean through a rabbits brain at 50 yards, I however, cant be entirely sure of hitting it at that distance (about 3/4 of an inch)….so stick to about 40 yards….I fail to see how 20 ft/lbs would bring anything else to the party….I could take 60 or 70 yard shots, but I wouldn’t be any more accurate and would end up wounding…so, the 12ft limit (without licensing) I don’t really find a bind.
After all, my guns spit JSB exacts at 800fps plus anyway and 177 over here has supplanted 22 as the hunting calibre on the most part
And yes RR, owning one Walnut TX200 is way, way better than owning the equivalent value in multiple Crosmans and Gamo’s 🙂
It really is
Dom
I use to hunt now just do a lot of paper popping and mini sniping and plain old plinking.
I don’t believe in the high horsepower models when it comes to airguns.
But you know as well as I do if you have been doing airguns long enough there is a proper tune for different types of shooting.
Some people hunt,some pest control, you have to know your gun and how to use it for the intended purpose is the way I see it.
GF1,
Now you own a sproinger that is not only great for thinning out the local tree rats, it is still one of the best field target rifles on the market. If you give it the time, you will be rewarded.
If you get tired of it let me know. I can buy a new stock. 😉
RR
Along with the .22 cal. LGU
I ordered yesterday. 🙂
Oh man! I really need to get back on these FWBs so I can get me a new sproinger!
Be sure to tell us how it does. This is one of my short listers.
RR
It will be here Friday.
And you know I asked about the FWB 300 in the past. I’m seriously interested. You will have to let me know when your ready.
And I’m butting my tongue right now but I will say it because its done now. I put a 12 fpe Vortek tune kit in the TX.
Yep its nice the gun doesn’t even move when I shoot it. Hey I couldn’t resist. Buldawg sent me a video and then I started looking at some info on TX tunes that people were willing to share. So I decided on the Pro Guide 2 Vortek kit.
Good stuff. I like even more now.
Oh man, your on a roll! Are trying to find the perfect springer or what? If I had the ability Id say my Christmas list goes maruader, escape, rainstorm II 9, Hunter big cat 177, AT65 22, 135 22, 460 22, 54 17/22, talonP… front to back, that about covers it!
RDNA
I’m thinking the guy in red has to be listening.
I’m hoping he brings one of the guns on your list.
You reminded me of my Christmas list when I was a kid. Me and my brother had a plan one year to put as much on the list as we could think of.
I think Santa was on to us. We didn’t get nothing that was on the list.
But for some reason we got some things we talked about in the past that we forgot about.
See he does listen.
Yeah, gotta watch out, not pout, and be good! As long as the kids are happy. Boy do I wish they were old enough for their first airguns! Then Id have a great excuse for all kinds of shootin goodies! 😉
RDNA
That’s what I say when we get a new gun.
I always tell my wife its good that they shoot different guns. Its a learning exsperiance you know.
And then my wife says you know what I’m getting for my birthday.
And while she shows me a list.
No wonder I’m working overtime and selling things I dont use anymore.
My power is O.U.T., bummer. I just started shootin zombies too… might as well rub some oil in the stock by candle light. I cam never sleep when the powers out, feel like I should be out choppin wood.
RDNA
Ain’t it cold were your at? We got about 2″ of snow today and 25 degrees right now.
The fire place is going right now and I’m sitting in front of it.
Not crazy about the cold anymore but its nice to burn a fire place. And I like going outside and smelling the wood burning.
And the pictures of that stock your doing that you sent me looks nice.
For you replica lovers, have you seen this yet?
/product/webley-mkvi-co2-bb-revolver?m=3560
I handled that in my local airgun shop, and all I can say, is that is the only BB gun I have ever wanted
It is absolutely fantastic, certainly the nicest thing to hold….I promise you, go to your local shop, you can play with the blowback Luger, the Mauser etc, but you’d better leave your wallet at home if you intend to pick that up 🙂
RR,
I have seen it, ordered it and I have 2 Webley firearm revolvers awaiting its arrival. Once again, the lookalikes have struck!
Can the Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver be far off?
B.B.
+1 on the Webley-Fosbery! Since most of us will only ever see it in pictures in a magazine or coffee-table book, having a replica available would be the best way to appreciate the mechanical genius of the piece and study the interesting articulation as it cycles. Rube Goldberg would be Proud! 😉
Jim,
That was my thinking. I don’t know if it is possible, but I would love to see it done. I have never seen the firearm in person — only pictures.
And how about a Borchardt, as long as “they” are at it?
B.B.
Tom,
Those are ultra-cool, but also not well-lnown enough to provide a big market for Umarex. This Webley is VERY cool, and just as a week or so ago we were praising the profile of top-break revolvers!
Again I make my case to Umarex for a Legends version for the most popular action machine pistol in pop culture history, the MAC-10. Back in October here I wrote the following stats:
“According to The Internet Movie Database (imdb.com) the Ingram MAC-10 has been prominently featured in 117 Hollywood movies, 33 American TV show episodes, 36 video games, and 15 anime comics. These statistics are a couple years old, so they do not include 2014 or much of 2013.
The first appearance was John Wayne using one in McQ in 1974. The highest concentration of them in movies and television is in the 1990s. Young boys from the 1990s are now — BINGO! — in their mid 20s to mid 30s, with a nostalgic yearning for their childhood pleasures combined with disposable income to spend on BB guns. (Umarex, take that as a hint.)”
THAT would be a “Buy Two” air gun. Buy one for play; buy one to keep in the box for 15 – 20 years.
Michael
I know I can’t be alone in feeling that “More is more” when it comes to airguns.
I love having a couple of cheap Crosman multi-pumps, a few co2 pistols, a “Beeman” springer, and so on. I haven’t yet gotten to the point where I could benefit from having a really expensive airgun, and it’s fun to learn about the things I like best, and to experiment with a range of options.
Do I have favorites? Most definitely. But I still shoot the whole range of what I have, just depending on what catches my eye.
Someday I hope to have some expensive airguns, but I definitely am working to build a relationship with each of the plinkers I have until I do get to where I will have “the one” that is better than all the rest.
I’ve spent a few hundred dollars on the airguns I have now, and the one thing I am sure of, is if I had only been able to buy one, and had spent that money on it right up front, I would have chosen wrong. Heck, I probably would STILL choose wrong, it’s all part of the learning process.
My hope is that I will be able to learn enough through all this exposure to be able to spin these pieces of straw into gold. Well, at least a bit of knowledge and skill. 😀
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am really looking forward to the big reveal at the end of this whole deal. I’m sure there’s a carrot we’ll be able to enjoy in there somewhere.
I can’t see the Fosbery, not with Co2, it one thing to flick a slide or a toggle back and forth, quite another to throw most of the revolver around and get over the cam resistance, if it is done it’s going to be one low shot count revolver.
A re-envisioning of the spring piston powerplant is long overdue in many ways.
It really hasn’t moved forwards in 130 years or so. The only refinements have been use of plastics in seals and a few nylon guides here and there, certainly the internals of a TX would be immediately obvious to your great grand pops with his BSA underlever.
With modern ceramics and computer modelling there’s little excuse really.
Imagine if you will, a polymer piston with a valve in the nose that closes under a compression value, so that it can move unfettered for the first part of it’s travel, trading mass (and therefore recoil) for velocity, the valve only closing for the last, compressive part of it’s stroke.
Or a wider, shorter compression tube with a piston sealed by rings like an internal combustion engine, or a spring that opens backwards while propelling the piston forwards so that the weight of the spring and guide cancel out the piston weight…..there are so many ways to go.
At the moment we all, basically, have Rolls Royces with developments of the Ford model T engines.
All very true. The reason for using the same basic system may well be the market. It works well at that price point. The world of air guns seems to have moved on to the PCP.
Mike
Well… If one posits an AR style stock, it may be possible to move the mainspring into the stock extension tube, design a piston where the sear latches at the front, just behind the seal (need a bit of room for the cocking linkage too).
This might permit a longer stroke at lower peak speed — a push rather than a slam.
As for a counterbalance spring movement — if you put a piston on both ends, then it’s been done already.
BB,
I can commiserate with you on the five shot versus ten shot group. I retested my RWS 350 as my original data was lost in a flood I had. To my surprise, H&N field target trophy pellets out did the original RWS Super H which I remember being this rifle’s favorite. At 28 feet, I put 5 pellets into a hole measuring .313″. Subtract the pellet size of. 177 and you see the center to center. As cocking effort is high, I only do 5 pellets to determine what the rifle likes best. By the way, I tried 15 different pellets including different head sizes of the same pellet, not all in the same session. The group appeared so small that I thought I was missing the target but as no new goes appeared in the Sheetrock, I had to figure that all the pellets were hitting the target. Happy T day to all.
Fred
BB,
I can commiserate with you on the five shot versus ten shot group. I retested my RWS 350 as my original data was lost in a flood I had. To my surprise, H&N field target trophy pellets out did the original RWS Super H which I remember being this rifle’s favorite. At 28 feet, I put 5 pellets into a hole measuring .313″. Subtract the pellet size of. 177 and you see the center to center. As cocking effort is high, I only do 5 pellets to determine what the rifle likes best. By the way, I tried 15 different pellets including different head sizes of the same pellet, not all in the same session. The group appeared so small that I thought I was missing the target but as no new goes appeared in the Sheetrock, I had to figure that all the pellets were hitting the target. Happy T day to all. Sorry if I pasted this more than once, Edith.
Fred
Fred,
I remember watching you haul that 350 magnum around the old Roanoke airgun show, hoping somebody would take it off your hands. When we spoke, I told you I thought the 350 was a real “rifleman’s” rifle and from the look on your face I could tell you didn’t share that opinion.
And now here you are, maybe 6 years later and all happy again, because you have finally figured your rifle out. This makes me very happy.
I think I told you back then that the 350 Magnum was not a rifle to plink with. If I did, you probably thought I was using subtle Russian sarcasm, but now I think you appreciate what I was trying to say. Use the 350 Magnum for one shot to drop the woodchuck in the garden, then return to the Diana 27 or Bronco to enjoy the rest of the day.
B.B.
B.B.
I would say return to the HW30.
G&G
BB,
great memory! When you told me this was a “rifleman’s rifle”, I didn’t quite know what you meant so that explains my facial expression. The rifle is a real exercise machine when it comes to cocking and it does have quite a recoil. However, after shooting my M1 Garand, I realized the recoil of the 350 is tame. It’s just that I wanted to sell this rifle to get some funds for other, more desirable rifles. I tried to sell it to friends but one insisted on my RWS/Diana 46 and the other went for the Crosman Nitro Piston Trail, both rifles I really didn’t want to sell. Both in .22. Now I find my collection is rich in .177 and lacking in .22. What am I going to do with all these .22 pellets? I have to buy some .22 rifles. So, what is this super secret rifle you are testing? Will it be released in .22 cal or is it a big bore using some unique technology that a “friend” of ours in Virginia has developed? 🙂
Fred DPRoNJ
Why does it appear the premiers making a rude gesture?
I think B.B. subconsciously shot that group in that manner for our benefit.
Kevin,
I can’t stop laughing. Good one!
Edith
Edith,
I’m deeply concerned about you since you get my twisted humor 😉
Have a great Thanksgiving!
kevin
I know exactly what’s happening, I do it all the time. The first few shots your “zen” or in the zone, then you notice the group is real nice and you start thinking about how you were holding it, and conscious or not, you begin trying to hard to hold the same. Try not looking at the group through the whole ten shots, or pretend each 5 shots are a new group.
B.B.,
I know exactly what you mean by being in the zone or “Zen and the Art of Shooting”. When I get that way there are no or little thoughts going through my brain and I just “know”, with absolute certainty, the shot will go exactly to my point of aim which will be exactly where I want it to go.
A couple of days ago I was practicing with my Rapid TM1000 and shot a 0.23″ 10 shot group at 25 meters. I was in the zone and stayed that way for 5 targets. Largest group was 0.29″. It’s a wonderful feeling. However, it is a PCP which is much easier to shoot than a springer. Especially a magnum one.
As a matter of fact this article has me in the mood to shoot springers today. At some point I will get in the zone but I still won’t do nearly as well as with the Rapid TM1000 and not for as many targets either. One of these days I am going to get my LGV and TX200 tuned. I am still shooting them as they came out of the box.
G&G
Statistics indicate that you are fooling yourself about “being in the zone.” Consider a “true” group size of 0.25 inches. Assuming a bi-gaussian distribution with x=y, then for individual 10-shot group sizes, the 95% confidence interval is about from 0.16 to 0.35 inches. So a string of five 10-shot groups between 0.23 and 0.29 is just a statistical fluke.
Thus for a ten shot group the high and low values of the 95% confidence interval will be different by about a factor of a little over 2.
See: Taylor and Grubbs, “Approximate Probability Distributions for the Extreme Spread.”
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA006586&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
Everyone,
Oh! I just got it.
B.B.
BB
I got that out of this report that’s what you were trying to get across to everybody.
Remember the target I posted the other day from the TX.
It had 9 half inch diameter circles drawn on the paper. 3 rows of 3.
I will shoot one shot at each circle. Then come back and start on the first circle and shot at all nine again. Sometimes I only shoot one shot at each circle and change the target.
The target change and moving from on circle to the other gives me a new object to focus on.
That’s how I look at field targets. Its a new concentration point to look at.
Put the gun up on your shoulder the hold should come natural if your moving around trying to find that hold your making things worse.
And finally back on the subject of the blog.
GF1,
I use the official USARB targets frequently. There are a total of 25 bulleyes on each sheet. It changes the point of aim every bullseye which makes the shooting more interesting. However, I will never tire of shooting 10 shot groups.
G&G
G&G
I like that type of target too. And can’t count the groups I have shot.
I like switching up the kind of shooting I do to. Probably the most enjoyable shooting is plinking. Pick a twig or leaf laying on the ground and shoot it. What’s real fun is shooting the stems off buckeyes while they are on the trees and seeing them fall. That definatly changes things up a bit shooting up in a tree.
What’s that saying there’s a time for everything.
It’s amusing to think about the Zen of shooting, I was out earlier and deconstructed my own actions, only to find them almost ritualistic, a few deep breaths while finding my position, centre the reticule on the target, then I go through a few distinct stages, the first being a kind of snuggle with the rifle, where I adjust any positioning and relax my thumb, then a deep breath in and a total exhale, settling the crosshairs, then, when satisfied I’m on target, I take a third step where I sort of zoom in, a sort of second level of concentration and stillness and squeeze the shot….this is followed, always by judging the shots accuracy through the scope and breathing in, the whole process only takes 5 or 6 seconds, if I’m still trying to get on target any longer than that I bring the rifle down and roll my shoulders, shift my feet a bit and start again.
I really must write that guest blog about my son’s journey through the autistic spectrum and the enjoyment and acheivement he got from shooting with me, and the physical therapy the focus it requires produced. I’m just worried about it shaming him now he’s 21……..maybe I’ll give it a year or two and get him to write it with me.
And try all that when your hunting.
Gunfun
Heck I am happy if I can hit my target 5 out of 10 shots on a good day. Its the fun and enjoyment that I can get with my grandkids that makes it all worth while.
I am glad you got your TX tuned to your liking and it sound like it is shooting the same as several of the spring FT guns that I have seen used at the matches I started to participate in and have gained a lot of knowledge from the air gunners that I have met and had the pleasure to shoot with as they have no reservations about sharing any and all info that they can to help you become a better shooter or tune your gun to get the most possible from it. I can say I am fortunate to have come across this club and having it so close to my home makes it even more of a driving factor to myself trying to continually improve my knowledge and skills in the new found world of air gunning.
I know it will only get better from here so that I can always continue to learn more and more every time we meet for our monthly matches.
BD
buldawg
The gun amazes me. And the tune is awsum. I can’t ask for anything more for the money spent.
And will you stop. I seen some of your targets you shot. 😉
Gunfuin
That’s the gun that I was given doing that as it makes it much easier to hit the target when you have a quality gun and someone willing to help you learn how to tune it and get the most from it and I want to thank you for all the help you have given me in that respect as well as the generosity of the person that made me a deal I could not refuse.
I am certainly looking forward to the FT matches on DEC 6th as I now believe that I will score much better than a 2 in this next match.
BD
buldawg
You don’t have to thank me. That’s what its all about.
That’s the way it was in the drag race world and the other hobby’s I have done.
And I know how that Mrod shoots you have from the tune that’s on it. And from what I have exsperianced with mine.
But it seems no matter how hard we prepare it don’t never seem to go the way you want. Like you said above the main thing is to try to do good and prepare.
But as I always say why are you doing something if you ain’t have’n fun.
Gunfun
You got that right is it got to be fun first then every thing else just comes naturally and yes the Mrod does make it much easier to be accurate when you can tune it to shoot so consistent.
I was just on chair gun printing out some range cards for the 10.3 JSB and 10.5 CPs to know the mil dot hold overs I will need at the different ranges we shoot at so in can start to make me a little plate I can put on my gun caddy to attach the cards on so I can easily refer to them at the matches.
It shows that I will have to use only 2 mil dots hold over for any of the ranges outside of 20 to 40 yards range once I get it sighted at a 40 yard zero instead of the 25 yard zero that it is sighted at now. Then I want to tune it for a closer spread with 900 fps as the target average with hopefully only a 10 fps spread above or below the 900 fps so I got some more fine tuning to get done. it is supposed to be in the high 60s here Sunday and calm wind so I think I an going to call Loren and see if he want to go to the range and do some sighting with his new 2240 FT pistol I made for him and I can resight the Mrod for 40 yards at the same time.
BD
buldawg
Yep got to get them cheat sheets made for your distances.
And we got 2″ of snow today and 25 degrees.
They are saying 65 degree and clear by Saturday. The saying in St.Louis is if you ain’t happy with the weather today just stick around for a couple days it will change.
I remember when I was a kid that it snowed a foot and was 25 degrees and the next day was 75 degrees. We were sled riding with our shirts off.
GUnfun
That’s the way it is here most of the time as it supposed to be 50 degrees tomorrow and windy and then start a warm up to the high 60s on Sunday.
Yea I got those cheat sheets till I can etch it in my brain as to what mil dot to use at what range
I remember in 75 in Tampa Florida it snowed and stayed on the ground till noon and we had snow ball fight at work all morning. Then when hurricanes would come up the coast we would get out in the road with rain coat held up like sails on our skateboards and race down the road or surf in the canal behind the houses from on end to other and then get out and walk back to the end of the road and do it again.
I have always enjoyed stormy weather and love watching mother nature at it best.
BD
Gunfun
I am getting ready to call it a night and get some shut eye and hopefully can sleep better tonight than last night as I just tossed and turned and finally got up at 6 am because I could not sleep and wanted to get a lot accomplished today which I did so it was a good day for a change.
Talk to you tomorrow.
BD
Well, I sort of do, just with my feet up to my ankles in water and a branch up my derriere
The things we have to do when we hunt.
B.B. the boys are restless today!… I get it, it’s a story about a gun, a modder, and airgun technology coming in the future and what IS possible that people couldn’t figure out how to do before. I’ve said it before some of your best reports are your “stories” or when you tell us someone else’s story. Thanks for this report and can’t wait for the future…
off-today’s topic: Dear B.B., I want to buy the Leapers 3-9x Bug Buster scope for my Crosman 2250 carbine with plastic receiver. Is this a workable idea, given the scope’s eye relief? What else would I need to mount the scope onto this air rifle? Thanks!
BB, it is great reading about the Magnum Gamo, such smooth performance from what is usually such a monster to handle. Looking foreword to your big announcement in Jan. The Fex Ex man delivered my birthday present today, few days early, but I’m not complaining. Got a Crossman Silhouette 1701P and a BSA dot sight. It has a wonderful trigger that needed no adjustment. I only had to fill it with air twice in the hour of daylight I had left after putting it together. 1/2 inch groups at 20 yards with a dot sight! I don’t need many words to describe it. WOW! The smile will not go away:)
Mart T.,
That smile is the reason I write about airguns. Happy birthday!
B.B.
BB,
Are there any updates on Rich Shar’s device?
Matt,
I had the rifle out at the range today, but for some reason I can’t get it to group like it did before. Rich has sent me other info that he is working on some things. I’ll try to put a report together soon.
B.B.
Ah, the joys of air gunning 😉 Thanks for the update!