by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
• Today’s rifle is different
• BT65 rifle specs
• Let’s talk price
• Quattro trigger
• Automatic safety
• Circular clip
• My plans for this test
Okay, back to work. Let’s start a look at Hatsan’s powerful precharged pneumatic air rifle (PCP) — the BT65 QE. I know this rifle has been out there awhile, but I just reviewed the AT44-10 Long QE last July, so I’m slow all around. That rifle was so accurate at 50 yards that I took it out to 100 yards — something I seldom do.
Today’s rifle is different
But today’s rifle is different. It looks very similar to the AT44-10, and it’s a 9-shot repeater (in .25 caliber, 10 in .177 and .22). But the BT65 is more powerful. It’s also very long, though that adjective is missing from the title. In short — this is the big one. I ordered it in .25 caliber because I have something special I want to do with it. But more on that later.
One reason I want to test this rifle because this is the platform Hatsan used to create their new big bore Carnivore rifle. They’ll soon be sending me one of those rifles to test, so I wanted to get the base rifle tested first.
BT65 rifle specs
The BT65 I’m testing is a very large! It’s just short of 49 inches long, which is very long for a rifle. It weighs 9.3 lbs. without a scope. So it’s a handful, or more correctly, a double handful!
The metal parts are finished to a satin sheen, and the stock is black synthetic. There are very few plastic parts on this rifle. I’m testing serial number 0914 21707. This rifle comes without sights.
I’m testing the rifle that has a conventional stock with an adjustable comb and an adjustable buttplate. Both the buttplate and comb adjust up and down. The buttplate also adjusts in and out to change the length of pull. What that means is that, with these 3 adjustments, you should be able to adjust your rifle to suit yourself quite well. I can see problems for smaller shooters, though, because this rifle is large even when all the adjustments are at the minimum. Think about that before you order one.
Compared to the BT65, an M1 Garand feels small, and an 03A3 Springfield feels like a carbine! I guess the closest pellet rifle comparison would be a Beeman R1. But the BT65 is even larger.
For 10 dollars LESS than the test rifle costs, you can buy a 7-inch shorter rifle in a walnut stock with the same adjustments but not silenced. That rifle comes with adjustable open sights. How they do that for less money is a mystery, but I would pick the walnut for casual plinking and the synthetic for hunting. But — does anyone seriously think they will plink with a 52 foot-pound .25 caliber air rifle?
A third variation of the rifle is also 7 inches shorter than the one I’m testing and comes in a synthetic thumbhole stock with the same adjustments as the other two, but it’s also not silenced. Pyramyd Air lists the power output the same for all 3 rifles, and their barrels are of similar lengths, so that might be the case. The thumbhole stock model also has open adjustable sights.
I know from reading reviews that this rifle is supposed to be very accurate. After experiencing the AT44-10, I have no reason to doubt that. And the letters QE stand for quiet energy, meaning all these rifles are silenced with a barrel shroud. I will tell you how loud the rifle is when I test the velocity in Part 2.
I looked down the barrel with a bright flashlight and can see baffles in front of the true muzzle and also a section near the shroud’s muzzle that has numerous holes in the walls for gas bleedoff. Hatsan has put some thought into how to quiet this beast! The actual muzzle of the rifled barrel ends deep inside this shroud.
Knowing this is a hunting rifle, as they provided sling swivels and loops, front and rear. Anyone who has carried 11 lbs. of rifle very far (rifle and scope) knows what a blessing this is.
Hatsan has made a base on top of the receiver that gives you the option of using 11mm scope rings or Weaver rings. That’s good marketing and great design!
Let’s talk price
The BT65 is a powerful repeater made for hunters. Given it’s specs, the price is just about as low as could be expected. If it proves accurate, it’ll be a great value. If it’s also quiet and has a good trigger, I can see it becoming a best buy.
Speaking of triggers, the BT65 comes with Hatsan’s Quattro trigger, which is adjustable. When I tested the AT44, I found the Quattro to be quite adjustable, if a little vague as to where stage 2 is. I’ll adjust the trigger on this rifle and make a similar report on my success.
I first tested a Quattro trigger on a Hatsan spring-piston rifle. I have to say that I wasn’t thrilled about its performance there. But on a PCP, where it isn’t restraining more than a hundred pounds of spring force, the Quattro is pretty nice. I imagine it breaks in to work even better; but as fast as I test these guns, that’s something I’ll never see.
The manual says the rifle has a manual safety, but the rifle I’m testing has a safety that goes on when the bolt is pulled back. That’s an automatic safety. The description on Pyramyd Air’s website mentions this. It make no difference to me — once you figure it out you can take the safety off as needed and whenever you want to.
Hatsan BT65 QE bolt. To cock the rifle, just pull the bolt straight back and return it again. To remove the clip, lock down the bolt handle in the rear slot to hold it out of the way. See how the clip sticks up above the top of the receiver? You must use 2-piece scope rings to straddle it.
The BT65 has a 9-shot circular clip that sticks out above the top of the receiver. Any scope has to clear this clip, so 2-piece scope mounts are a must. The clip releases straight out to the right, so no scope clearance is needed to remove and install it. Replacement clips are available in all 3 calibers, but they’re listed as mags. They also fit other Hatsan PCP airguns.
To remove the, clip you first pull back the bolt and lock it down in its slot. Then, push the brass bolt that holds the clip forward and up, and the clip pops out to the right. Installation is the reverse, and you may have to jiggle the clip before the brass clip bolt will slip back to its locked position.
My plans for this test
This test will include the traditional 3 parts (description, power, accuracy), but I might need to stretch that a little to get everything in. The rifle doesn’t have adjustable power, but the 3 ways the butt adjusts need to be treated well, because they are significant. And, of course, there’s the adjustable trigger.
But after all that’s finished, I want to see if I can shoot .25-caliber lead bullets from the rifle. I have a .25-caliber bullet mold that drops 65-grain lead bullets. I want to see if shooting them is even possible because someone on this blog mentioned that people were having success shooting lead bullets in this rifle. I’ll test it carefully so I don’t damage the gun. If it works, you can expect a couple more reports.
All in all, this test should prove interesting.
71 thoughts on “Hatsan BT65 QE: Part 1”
This is a long one alright. Maybe it is because of rifles of this length which makes a good case for it be made as a bullpup. Someone will have to make a way to manipulate that bolt properly though in a bullpup configuration.
Hmmm, it’s odd that you say the stock is black (though not surprising). It’s just that to ME, in the picture above and on the PA website the stock looks gray. I guess it’s the all white background not showing enough true color.
I lighten the pictures on dark things to show detail. If I left it the way it looked it would just be a silhouette.
Yes, I can see how a shiny black against a dull black could be tricky to photo.
Looking forward to the parts of this review.
I’ve had a hard time deciding whether I would want to buy this or the Sumatra…
Both are beautiful PCPs, and said to be reasonably accurate, even before investing in a tune.
From what I have read, neither would be a good FT gun, even if the caliber were allowed, but both are plenty for hunting small game, and can easily be used for medium sized critters, although I am not a good enough shot to try to pull that off without a lot more FPE.
And I agree with David H, the stock does look grey, but I have often seen that due to less black dye in the plastic combined with shiny flats on the synthetic stock. That said, how does it look to you?
I lightened the PA picture a lot to show details in the stock and action. The stock is darker than it appears here.
This is one of the occasions you actually should have a used one.
My gunsmith complains customers after a while come back, with failures and complaints. He DOES sell them, but advises potential buyers to spend 200/300 more, and buy quality.
If you look at the used guns advertising, there’s al LOT of hatsan pcp for sale.
Reminds me of a discussion we once had…..
He had this used .22 stoeger x20, seemed okay as a backdoor-ready-to-grab rifle. I asked how much it costs.
-“aint gonna sell it to you”
@ why not?
-“youll be back tomorrow, banging on my door, saying it isnt accurate.
@ I wont do that.
-” yes you will. First thing youll do is test its accuracy. Youll be back the next day.”
Well….. I did buy the stoeger…..two days later I got my refund:)
Hatsan springers seem to make up a full half of the used market here in the UK, having owned a couple I can say that speaks volumes. Their PCP’s seem a bit better though
I have to say this from my exsperiance with the .177 Hatsan AT44-10QE that I had. Notice the word had.
It was a powerful pcp and quiet for sure. But I have to say that the gun would not produce similar groups from day to day. One day I couldn’t belivet how good it shot. Then the next day the group size was double from the previous days good group. And this was from the same tin of brand name pellets. And I was shooting one of my trusty pcp rifles right along side it each day from the same tin of pellets and that rifle produced its normal consultant groups as always.
I did make a single shot tray for it not totally for the purpose of seeing if it would make a better group. Which it did. But the gun still would not shoot consistent groups from day to day.
And the reason I ended up making me that single shot tray was because Buldawg wanted to be able to shoot the longer pellets like the metal mags in. 22 cal. from his Hatsan pcp because the clip wouldn’t accept the longer pellet.
I don’t remember if BB tested his first QE two days in a roe but mine sure wouldn’t produce consistent results and I even tryed other brand pellets. So not sure what was up with the one I had.
But it will be interesting to see what this .25 cal. QE will do with pellets and bullets. But I’m really waiting on the .30 and .357 cal.QE review. I got a .25 cal Marauder that I’m real happy with. I want some kind of .30 caliber and up big bore next.
And yes my phone still auto corrects for some strange reason and I see there are mis spells now.
I turn it off but it seems that the phone will go back to auto correct if I turn the phone off then back on the next day. Its like everytime I turn the phone back on I have to reset some of the settings.
So there is something that I probably need to do to override it and I ain’t figured it out yet.
it the curse of the Chinese phones they have them so well made that they frustrate us constantly just like our Govt. Oh wait its because the Chinese own our country now as well.
I think your 177 QE must have had some baffles loose or slightly out of place as my 22 with the hatsan made external LDC groups one on top of the other with just about any pellet you just have to adjust your mil dot holds to hit the bulls.
You need to wait and get you a non QE big bore model then if its to loud just buy the one I got for 46 bucks made for their guns.
I may be wrong but I don’t think Hatsan offers a big bore that is not the QE model. So I may be out of luck there.
But I know you told me that you shot your .22 cal. Hatsan with that single shot tray that I made for you first before I made that one for me. And you said it definatly loaded the pellet nice. But have you tryed shooting 10 shot groups with the clip verses the single shot tray.
And I don’t know if you remember I ended up getting more consistent shots with mine when I removed the barrel band that attaches to the front of the stock. Remember I could me the stock around on the resivoir tube and I could see it moving the barrel.
But I think the problem on the gun may of been the valve. Because my chrony results no matter what pellet I used would show a great fps spread of like 8 one day and the next day it would have like a 40 plus fps spread.
Remember I was collecting data from that gun for about 2 weeks and I could never get it to produce the same groups from day to day but my other trusty .177 cal. PCP would shoot the same pellets consistently from day to day.
I even cleaned the barrel with the shroud removed same results. I even shot the gun two days in a row with the shroud and baffles off the barrel. And the crown on the muzzle end was good and the lead in chamfer on the breech end of the barrel was nice. I even tryed changinging the breech o-ring and ended up putting the factory one back in.
So looked at a lot of things on that gun for sure. Maybe it had a bad spot in the rifling. Who knows but I sure gave it what it was worth before it went. And maybe I got one of those lemons. Stuff happens when it comes to something mechanical. Oh well on to the next one.
You are right they don’t make a non QE model in the big bore gun so that option is out of the choice.
I have not shot ten shot groups with the tray versus the magazine, but when I went to my friends that you have a picture of me shooting off his lift that was with the magazines at fifty yards and it grouped from 3/4 inch to 1 1/2 groups depending on the pellet I used that day. I shot I believe 9 or 10 different pellets and had five that grouped under 1 inch at 50 yards and were CPHP 14.3s, H&N FTs 16.26s, H&N Barracudas 21.4s and the JSB 15.89s and 18.13s. I have not really shot any groups from the single shot tray as of yet but do plan to do so at my friends here when the weather warms up.
I remember you removing your barrel band and shooting it but did not remember that it shot better groups like that so that I did not think about as my mind is not the same from one day to the next as well.
It may have been the valve as I don’t know if you ever unscrewed your cylinder from the receiver or not but there are six hole equally spaced around the end of the valve that transfers the air into the port to the barrel. It could have been some left over material inside the valve that was blocking one or more of those 6 holes changing the volume of air flow at each shot. I have read on other forums of people blocking from three to all but one of those hole so that the only open hole is the one pointing directly at the transfer port.
I don’t remember you doing all that different testing with it as I am not sure you told me all the different things you tried to get it to shoot good but I know mine when I chronyed that same day at my friends was very consistent in its ES and SDs with every pellet I tried but only 5 did acceptable for me by grouping under 1 inch at fifty yards.
I believe you got a lemon like I have said in the car industry the parts were probably built on a Monday or Friday and assembled on one of those day as well.
So I hope when you get the bog bore it is a good one.
Did you see the video of Rick Eustler shooting the 30 cal at 50 and 75 yards. It showed to be very accurate but they seem to down on power compared to the same caliber guns of other competitors guns.
I didn’t go that deep and get into the valve but I do remember you telling me about you read about people plugging off the holes in the valve.
Yep I did get the email with the review and video of the Hatsan big bore the Rick was testing. It sounds like he’s got a lot of exciting things in store for the gun he’s testing.
And even though I did have that go on with my Hatsan QE I’m still willing to take a chance and try one of the Hatsan big bores. The .30 caliber is the one that interests me of the two calibers available.
But that will be a while before I get one. Got some money saving to do first. Especially after just ordering me another 1720T and a 1399 stock.
Tracking says it will be here tomorrow. So I’m interested to see if it will be as good as my first one I had a while back. I will find out soon enough.
I am getting my Vortek kits tomorrow as well so we will both be busy with new toys to play with and get dialed in. My hatsan is my only gun I have not touched other than adjusting the trigger and shot in some yesterday and adjusted on the trigger some more and got it just about as good as the Mrods trigger, but I think if I take it apart and polish the hammer and sear it will be very close to the Mrod as it is the same first and second stage feel just is a little gritty feeling in the second stage.
That video was quite interesting and showed some good groupings even at 70 yards. if I got one it would be the 30 cal as well but I am going to look at some others first as it will be a while before I can think about a big bore for me.
I hope your 1720T gets there on time and before you have to leave for work so you can at least hold it and maybe get the stock mounted on it and a few shot in before leaving for work. My Vortek kits will be here anytime after 2 pm so I am hoping to get the 40 together and shoot it some to see how it is with the HO kit in it and get some chrony numbers before dark as it supposed to be nice tomorrow still as well and then the cold comes back Thursday.
I just got an email from the guy that had the Titan GP and is now ready to ship it so I think I am going to get it for 70 bucks total shipped to me and decide which of the two I want to keep as I can sell one to get my money back easy enough.
Yep everything I have been reading or watching about the 30 cal. seems promising.
Not to much said about the .357 cal.
And yep I do hope it comes before I go to work tomorrow. And it sounds like we both got some shooting / testing ahead of us.
Let me know when you get your kits.
Yea I hope you get yours before you leave for work and my kits get here right at 2pm so I can get the 40 together and shooting to break it in some more before I get some numbers.
I have heard about the same thing that the 30 cal is good but not much about the 357. I think they are using the same valve and hammer parts from the 25 cal gallation for both the 30 cal and 357 cal and the valve hammer setup cannot put enough air out to push the bigger pellet out fast enough to be accurate at the longer distances most people expect from that size gun. I may be wrong but the 30 and 357 are both built on the gallation platform and it does not look like they increased the air cylinder size from the smaller calibers so I think they are pushing the envelope of how much air the platform can utilize to propel a 357 cal pellets to its greatest potential out of the smaller guns platform.
I will let you know when my kits get here and let me know when you get your 1720T as well.
That very well could be a possibility that the .357 don’t seem to have the same out put as the .30 cal. Hatsan.
I know that Rick was using the .30 cal. diabolo dome style pellets of normal design.
I have not heard what they are using for the .357 Hatsan. Maybe a bullet design of a heavier grain and that could be part of why its going slower also.
Either way I’m waiting for more info on both of the big bore Hatsans. I think some interesting things will surface with the guns.
Rick actually tested a 38 gr diabolo style pellet I believe was the weight and also a 40 or 41 gr hollow point actual bullet style projectile, but the heavier bullet did not perform as well as the diabolo pellet in the accuracy test although the hollow point did more damage in the gelatin wound tract test and did penetrate farther but did not mushroom as well as the diabolo pellet. So each would have its advantages and disadvantages in actual use.
I am like you I want to see more reviews and test performed before I decide what big bore air gun I go after. I want to hit what I am aiming at but also want as much energy as possible as well and from the test rick did the 30 cal with the diabolo pellets was barely over 70 fpe so for me that is not enough when you can get that with a 25 cal Mrod with the right mods.
If I get a 30 cal or bigger it will have to at least make 150+ fpe or its not using the air effectively in my book. I am still with the time it will take for me to save the money to get a big bore gun most likely will put my name on the list for the custom made ranger 45 that at least make in the 400 + fpe range and is not that much more than a hatsan and is not a mass produced gun but rather made to order to your liking.
It may take two years to get it but it will take me that time to have the money to buy it anyway and it will be made just as I want it to be in appearance and performance and can shoot common everyday available bullets as well as bog bore pellets. The best bullet to use in it is actually a 45/70 colt bullet.
Right now I am just going to get my two spring FT guns working and then see about the trade with Gabe and work on making me a bad 25 caliber hatsan air spring power break barrel out of the genesis I have and that should keep busy for awhile.
I’m still open about what big bore I want to get.
I’m just going to keep my eye’s open and see what kind of reviews become available for the different big bores that are out there.
And I got to start doing some money saving before I get one also.
So time to set back and start gathering info about them and see what comes about.
There are so many choices out there for big bore guns that it will take me awhile to decide myself as to what I want to get as well.
I am still more of a traditional looking person myself so I don’t want any new bull pup or super military looking guns but rather just a plain and simple looking powerful gun.
You know me function before beauty is the only way as I don’t care as much about the looks as I do the performance and power.
Its just all time for me to spend that kind of money on a big bore air gun it will have to be exactly what I want and that is why I am leaning towards either a DQ gun or an XP airgun that will be built to my liking and not a mass produced anyone’s gun.
You know my saying.
Simple but effective.
I want one that shoots good. And probably a conventional rifle design also. Kind of like sleeper rifle like the cars we use to build.
I want it to look like a plane Jane air rifle but all biusness on the inside.
I agree 100% in that it must look plain jane but be a beast in sheep clothing.
Another 1720T huh!. I love mine. you may remember that I bought one of Steve Corcoran’s stocks that he makes for the Marauder Pistol. It fits the 1720T perfectly. That carbine is now my go to rifle for Silhouette, informal FT and any other kind of off-hand standing shooting. took me a while to find the right pellet for it though. The JSB 8.44gr just wouldn’t work. I finally determined it was because I adjusted the rifle for maximum velocity and at 750+ fps it needed a heavier pellet. Jackpot. The JSB 10.34 gr pellets are great. At 25 meters I am shooting groups from .30″ to .5″ consistently. I believe the stock has a lot to do with it.
Yep my teenage daughters like to shoot and all my air rifles are heavier guns. So its hard for them to shoot unless the bench rest. So I needed to get something light and a single shot for them to shoot standing up.
I already put my RAI adapter and AR adjustable but stock on it. That way its just a matter of clicking the button and the legnth of pull can be adjusted to fit them or me. And Pyramyd Air now carries those RAI adapters that Dave sales. They are branded under the Air Venturi name on the P.A. site.
They also allow you to offset the but stock to help with line of sight repeatability when you shoulder the gun. After all that’s how Dave came up with the idea of making the adapter was so his younger kids could shoot the same gun he was shooting and have the correct legnth of pull.
And yes another 1720T for one more reason. They are very accurate guns.
Oh and forgot. Mine is set up for max power too.
And yes the JSB 10.34’s is what I use.
Gunfun1 – I’m curious what repeatability would be “consistent” to you.
Statistics is a weird science. It isn’t the best group size that is meaningful, but the average group size. So if you shoot a number groups the best to the worst can vary by say a factor of 3. The factor depends on how many shots in the group, the number of groups, and flyers.
You said the magic words. “Consistent to me”.
I always shoot 10 shot groups if I want to know the truth about a gun or the pellets I’m trying. And I always go right out to 50 yards. I know if the gun and pellet produce the groups that I’m satisfied with at 50 yards that it should produce better groups as I move in and shoot at a shorter distance.
Here is what the Hatsan would do. And this would be shooting several 10 shots groups each day. At the minimum five 10 shot groups each day. One day the gun would get .900″ groups and this all bench rest results. Then the next day the gun would produce 1.500″ groups.
And weather conditions stayed pretty much the same from day to day. And here is the thing also. Remember I said I was shooting one of my other pcp .177 cal. guns that I know is a good performer right along side the Hatsan each day. And both guns were using the same pellet’s. The other known pcp was producing its normal .650″ group’s.
And usually I shoot my guns for a period of time and I don’t have flyers. I call them pulled shots. I will know when I pull the trigger if that pellet ain’t going to make it to the target right.
So yes there’s variables that are involved. But its hard to deny the facts when you got two guns shooting side by side and one of the gun produce the same results day after day and the other won’t.
sounds like in 177 pellets were going to fast to have consistency thus bigger groups. my hatsan 22 PCP’s are very accurate at around 930-950 fps
Hmm is this a coincidence or what.
Both the Hatsan and the other pcp gun which is a synthetic stock Marauder are both shooting the JSB 10.34 pellets at around 920 to 950 fps. Which from shooting them in my other .177 cal guns that is about the fastest fps those pellets will shoot consistent groups at. And when Buldawg got his .177 Marauder he tryed different pellets and in the end found the JSB 10.34’s to be the best. And if I remember right he slowed his Maruder down to the low 900 fps range and his groups improved.
And they were the pellets that produced the best groups in the Hatsan and the Marauder.
Each day I shot both guns I chronyed them both and the pellets used were all from same tin of pellets. On the days that the Hatsan had good groups the fps spread was small like I said above. On the days the fps spread was bigger like I said above the group’s were also bigger.
I really believe that there was something to do with the valve the way it was releasing air. It could be also a combination of the striker not hitting the valve consistently either. I do believe that is one of the biggest causes of variation in a pcp gun.
And again why could the Hatsan produce good groups one day and not the next. But the Marauder was the same everyday.
I really think it was the way the valve was releasing and transfering air to the barrel. If you read above I also made sure the bolt was sealing good also which I mentioned in a round about way about the seal. I used the single shot tray and put my finger on the bolt after loading the pellet to see if I could feel air leak when the shot was fired. I did about s half dozen shots that way and could feel no air escape from the barrel and bolt area.
Maybe I should of kept going with the gun but I got tired of messing with it. And again maybe that .900″ to 1.500″ group would be ok for somebody. But not me. Most of my targets are at the most 1″ big. So maybe somebody else would be ok with the Hatsan I had. But I know how my Marauder shoots. And I like accurate guns.
Just cleaned out my email and found a reply from you….
Yes, I plan to clear out a “lane”. The weather here has not been any better than yours. I’m pretty sure I can get 75’/25yds. without any “chopping”. Since that is 34′ better than what I am shooting now (41′), I will start with that for a sight in.
Of coarse, I will get 1 target out at 50 yds. just to see if I can keep up with you!
😉 I believe that the .22 TX, and given the fps at muzzle, it will drop off a bit quicker,.. so 50yds. might be “pushing it”. Plus, I am looking for effective ft. lbs at impact for the afore mentioned critters. I do believe that 30yds. was max. from posters comments.
Get “boned up” on the “Chairgun”, a chrony is on my list and I want the Chairgun readings to be accurate, so… I will have questions.
At your leisure,…..review the shooting chrony models on P.A. and let me know what you think. No hurry. I’m leaning towards the Alpha with remote read. Don’t really plan to interface with a PC or printer.
Thanks ahead and have a good one. Not much to comment on PCP’s. A liitle to rich for my blood. But,…I will say,..the more I read on ’em, the more they peak my curiosity. Maybe if I hit the lottery?…..P.A., LOOK OUT!
The main thing is learn what your gun will do at different distances. That way you don’t have to second guess what you and the gun can do.
And I got the green chrony. It has a optional spot to plug into besides using the screen on the chrony. I have mine around 5 years with no problems yet. And I don’t have any add one.
And I think I’m remembering right but I think they got some kind of upgrade deal that you can turn your old one in and they give you something for your old. It was in with the instruction book. And I haven’t read it anymore since I got it so I’m kind of foggy on what it say’s.
And you don’t have to go all out if you get a pcp. My first pcp was Discovery and Benjamin hand pump combo. I shot that gun for about a year before I went of the deep end and went air gun crazy trying all different kinds if powerplants and gun designs.
The Discovery’s are very accurate guns and they operate on 2000 psi instead of the higher 3000 psi that is the norm for pcp guns. So they are easter to pump by HND and take less pumps to fill. Plus you will get around 35 shots per 2000 psi fill. I think if I remember right it took about 40 or so pumps to get back to the 2000 psi mark. And what I like about pcp guns they are usually lighter than a spring or nitro gun and they are smooth shooter’s. No click and no vibration. So what do you think those two good qualities do for the groups you shoot.
Oh and I think a .22 cal. Discovery combo and hand pump is around 325 or somewhere in that neighborhood.
If you get a pcp I’m going to lay money on it you will like it.
I corrected the spellings and it showed they were changed and set them back when u hit the send button.
But the one thing I want to correct here is about the pcp gun.
They are smooth. With no kick or vibration.
If a .22 Disco/pump will run me under $400 then I ‘ll be picking one up in May when I get what’s left of my back pay
I just looked and the Discovery and pump is 400 bucks now.
I could of swore it was cheaper.
Well it is what it is.
Still that’s a good price compared to how much some high end springers cost in my opinion.
Gunfun1 – No sure that we’re quite on the same page. Looking at following document:
we can set the bar as to how often we are willing to be “fooled.” A 95% confidence interval is typical for a lot of things in science which means that you’d be fooled only 5% of the time. Setting the bar high keeps you from finding a “difference” that really isn’t there.
The 95% confidence interval for 1 ten-shot group is 65% of the true average to 142% of the true average for a single group. So the best group out of 5 ten-shot groups could easily change from 0.90″ inches one day to 1.50″ inches the next.
The confidence interval for the average of a number of groups would be smaller. So the average for 5 ten-shot groups should have a 95% confidence interval of about 84% to 121% of the true average.
To go a bit further, in order to show that the whole shooting system doesn’t conform to the expected variation you must compare the expected standard deviation to the measured standard deviation. In order to calculate the measured standard deviation you must calculate an estimate of the average expected group size. So if you have two days worth of data, then the best estimate of the average group size is:
But the error in the average estimate essentially creeps into your standard deviation estimate.
The gist here is that, at the 95% confidence level, I don’t think that an average of 0.90″ one day and 1.50″ for the next for 5 ten-shot groups indicates a difference. I’m pretty sure that you’d just have to accept the difference as the quirky nature of statistics.
Think of it this way. You have 100 shots which seems good. But you only have 10 ten-shot groups, and you only have two daily averages. Two is small sample statistics which are terrible.
The best way to analyze the data would really be to look at the 10 ten-shot groups and do repetitive sampling from the 10 measurements. So by chance how often would the 10 measurements separate into two sets which have less than the observed relative difference? Unfortunately I don’t know of any statistical tables that give this information, though a reasonable estimate could be made.
(1.50 – 0.90)/1.2 = 0.50
I do understand what you mean.
But to me it doesn’t matter what kind of deviation there is.
Here’s what I know that I can accept. That is what the Marauder will produce. I can’t accept what the Hatsan was producing.
Bottom line. My .177 cal. Marauder compared to the Hatsan is the gun I’m going to pick up and count on it being on target.
Plain and simple wich gun would you be confident using in a match. The Marauder or the Hatsan?
Good morning all, BB please explain what you say “I be careful not to damage the gun” with the 25 cal. cast bullets? Also will you ever do report on bullet molds and casting?I read allot of people starting to do this and I for one have interest.
Okay. What if the bullets stick in the barrel and dump the reservoir? Do that enough times and the valve can be damaged. What if the bullets clip the baffles on their way out because they are not stable? Can you see shooting the shroud off the gun that way? I can. The bullets may strain the clip is some way that I can’t predict.
BB, I was looking forward to see a test on one of the newest Hatsan PCPs, but honestly, was expecting it to be on the new Galatian QE, instead of the BT65. But I understand where you’re going with it, since you want a baseline for the big bore gun you will test in the future.
Hatsans have a pretty good following around here, but everybody seems to see them as workhorses and not exactly thoroughbreds. I can’t comment on that, because I never had a Hatsan in my life. The problem I see is the price point: at 679,00, you’re into a class with stiff competition and lots of brands with a very good reputation. For an imported product to make its name, it needs to put some very good value for your money, and I guess that’s what you get from a Hatsan. It is just not something you’re going to show your friends on the shooting club and hear “WOW”!
The Galatian is still on the table. This one is just in preparation for the Carnivore.
I’m just curious…aside from self-sufficiency, what is the potential advantage to shooting bullets versus pellets? Do they have a more desirable ballistic coefficient?
As along time cast bullet shooter and a student of self sufficiency, ( my twenty something niece refers to me as a non-pacific hippie who grows and catches his own food) ,it is about performance on the target, being able to do that cheaper and without outside support once the equipment is bought.Plus they work! Pellets are not long range projectiles, and they have dismal ballistic coefficents compared to bullets.
Everything Robert said and this. The ballistic coefficient of a bullet is roughly ten times that of a diabolo pellet. If they can be stabilized they will carry more energy farther.
It’s too bad H&N doesn’t make a .25 cal Rabbit Magnum. It would be interesting to compare these to cast bullets. A .25 cal JSB monster would be an interesting comparison as well, since it is almost like a bullet/diablo hybrid.
The ballistic coefficient of a bullet is roughly ten times that of a diabolo pellet. If they can be stabilized they will carry more energy farther….
Hi BB, I have had minimal interest/curiosity in .25 and larger bore airguns because I am thinking that they are just encroaching into powder-burner territory and I have that base well covered, this comment just changed all that!
Thanks! (I think) 🙂
If this will shoot a cast bullet without modifications, I would be a potential customer. I have two bullet moulds that are meant for the .25-20 WCF cartridge which I use for small game. One is a 75 gr Loverin style and the other is the flat nosed 86 gr ,which mimics the factory jacketed version. For me, the enjoyment in shooting a PCP air rifle would hinge on being able to make my own bullets. I don’t own any PCP rifles, but it is not because of the cost of support equipment.That would only have to be bought once. It is really because they don’t(for me) offer anything more than my small bore MLer’s or cast bullet shooting firearms do. These .25, .30, and .357 cal PCP’s interest me for this reason. Target shooting and small game hunting is much more important to me than deer hunting.
The bullet I will be testing is a 65-grainer. I don’t know if anything longer can be stabilized.
You know that if bullets work I will test them at 100 yards. I think I even have the targets from my .25-20 to compare to.
BB: I’ll be looking forward to your tests. If you want, I could send you some 75gr Loverin style (Lyman #257463 ) to try? Maybe it would fit in the magazine, or could be single loaded? I got a typo above in my post, my other mould is the Lyman 65 gr ,probably like yours, not 86 gr, that’s flat nosed like the factory 86 gr. I have a Savage bolt action 23 with a Weaver 3X scope I test my .25-20 handloads in. The ballistics of the old small game cartridges seem so much like these newer PCP’s .
Yes, my mold is for a flat-nosed bullet. Hold off on sending anything until I see if this is going to work. I have Johnny Hill of Tin Starr Bullets making me some pure lead 45 grainers, too
This is exactly where my interests have been for a while.I want to get out just a little bit further,but I don’t want the bigger power or noise of a powder gun.I have the Marauder .25 set up for a 2%velocity spread about it’s max.velocity for long distance shooting.chairgun tells me that I will get too much drift in the wind, and the drop adds up too fast for what I want with the pellets.Do you think the Marauder is a little too underpowered for these bullets?I am getting 42 to 45 fpe.I would rather go to a different rifle than to radically modify this stock rifle.The Texan is too powerful for my use so it’s between a Hatsan or the Benjamin Bulldog if a bullet won’t work in the Marauder.
Tin Can Man
Yes, I think the BT65 is what we need for the best chance with bullets in a .25 repeater.
If you’d be so kind as to send my a couple of Lyman #257463 slugs to try, I’d appreciate it. I have a mold maker who’s willing to make new versions of old molds. I’d like to have as much variety as possible to see what works best in the two .257 air guns I have.
At present I have two molds: Lyman 257420 (great mold) and RCBS 25-85-CM (it makes nice rounds but the meplat at .177 is way too big and accuracy beyond 50 yards suffers.
I have a 90 grain LFN on order from LBT, a NOE 260283 that has been converted to hollow point by Erik at hollowpointconversions.com (both should show up this week!) and just placed an order for two custom brass molds 257283 and 257312 from The Machine Connection/Arsenal Molds. If you want some castings in return for slugs you’d be kind enough to send my way, please let me know. I believe in quid pro quo.
698 Marina Dr.
Boulder City, NV 89005
Welcome to the blog.
This report has 5 parts. You are on Part 1. To find the others, enter the title in the Search box at the top right of the page and hit Return.
Part 5 has all the links to the earlier reports.
I tried the solid bullet in Part 3, but it wouldn’t load.
Thanks for the welcome, B.B. Pelletier
Sorry to hear you couldn’t get your gun to load the round. Is it a .257? Was the round sized to .257? I had Lee Precision make a custom .257 sizer (no strangely, they had never made on before). Its an okay piece of gear, but they say that the bullets need lubing before they go in the sizer. I don’t like liquid Alox for a variety of reasons: 1) It really smells bad. 2) Its a gooey mess. 3) I’ve read that it can act like flux causing lead to stick to a barrel.
I make my own lube. Its work, but I think the results are worth it. Beeswax and Sta-Lube Moly Graphite 50/50. I also like to coat bullets with moly powder. That’s a bit messy as the stuff never stops spreading, but the moly coats the barrel of my gun with SLICK and a little goes a long way.
Try sizing the round if your gun is .257 and you can get the round sized to .257. You might like it.
I get very good accuracy with the slugs from the Lyman 257420 at 100 yards. Have yet to see how well I do with 150 and 200 yards, but last week it took 10 shots wipe out 6 eggs at 100 yards with that round, and I’m not a particularly good shot.
So, the safety will go on each time you work the bolt? That might be a problem if you need a second shot while hunting. At least it will be a bit of a pain.
Am I correct in understanding this receiver to employ a straight pull bolt?
No. The bolt handle is first lifted, then pulled back.
O.K.,I started wondering how that would work in a high powered PCP.
I recently got a bt65 qe in .25. I had a problem with the larger pellets cycling thro specifically the 43gr eunjins. I milled the breech and made a groove for the pellets to load and now they work perfectly.
Wow, I did not think this is possible. I am loading the Eunjins with the pliers one by one.
David, can you please please send me a picture or 2 of your modifications so I can do the same thing?
Please text me at 678-736-3181
I also have a .25 mold my mold comes up a bit bigger than 6.35 so I have to put them through a set of dies that I made.
I then have to make them lighter because I live in the uk this as you can imagine is very time consuming but I enjoy doing it I can also very the weight from around 16 grains to 35.
it sounds a bit extreme but I get the lead from my back stop plus I get the odd bit here and there from work.
I’m looking forward to seeing how your 65 grain pellets perform.
Welcome to the blog.
Besides the 65 grain bullet I will be casting, another man is making me some 45 grain bullets for the rifle. This is stacking up to be a good test!
Yes it is looking very good I hope the bullets work I haven’t really tested the ones i have made past 10 yards.
I’m sure the plastic bit out of the back of a bic pen shoots just as well at 10 yards.
If I had one word to describe any Hatsan I have owned or shot it would be industrial. That means heavy, solid, and can be accurate. Put the word industrial in front of any aspect of a Hatsan and you got it (industrial trigger, industrial build, industrial weight, etc.). Not necessarlly a bad thing, but it is what it is.
The cast bullet experiment sounds interesting.
what kind of black magic do people use to get a cast heavy bullet in the breech?? there is only so much room there..
I’ll let you know when I try it.
These bullets aren’t that long, though.
I have a BT65 Elite in .22 cal and the words “industrial, tank, Ford Tough” all come to mind. Using 21 grain Baracuda pellets some shots hit 50 ft lbs out of the box, so the gun has big power, and certainly impressed the last DNR agent that wanted to make sure I had a hunting license. When you pick up the gun you don’t think “bench rest” you think “field gun” which is interesting because as B.B. says, the gun is a heavy 12 lbs with scope. The only way I can carry the gun for a full day in the field is with a Safari Sling. I have found the accuracy to be more than acceptable for a hunting weapon, and so far, have had no problems with the pellet cycling. It is not my only PCP, I also have a Condor for those longer hikes, but with the BT it feels like an old Browning shotgun, heavy dependable, get the job done!
why not compare its size to the hatsan 125. It is 48 inches long. I have it in camouflage with the nitro piston. Damn I love that gun.
I know I know this is a day late and a dollar shy. But I thought I’d let anyone out there who likes the 257420 round but doesn’t like the fact that the Lyman mold for it is only 2 cavity know that Arsenal has put out a 257420 mold in four cavity. Not only does it produce twice as fast, the rounds it produces make more consistent groups. It is available in both aluminum and brass. Mine’s aluminum.