by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Crossbow trigger
- The nut
- Fast-forward to today
- What have we learned?
Today’s report is a simple one. But it’s also profound. This is a diamond mine where the diamonds are laying about for anyone to pick up.
When we look at vintage and antique airguns, it’s more than just the guns themselves that hold our interest. It’s also the unique parts of the guns that can be special. Today I want to present a special trigger from centuries past that is still having an impact in airguns today.
Most of the information in this report comes from the excellent book, The Crossbow, by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey. It was copyrighted in 1903 and was reprinted by Barnes & Noble Books, Inc. in 1996.
Crossbow trigger
I’ve written about this trigger before, but not for many years. And it is the perfect subject for the history of airguns. The trigger I refer to was in use on crossbows in the fifteenth century. That makes the design nearly 600 years old!
Before we look at the trigger let me tell you something about the crossbow it was found on. It had either a steel bow or a laminated horn bow that took 400-700 lbs. of effort to cock. This is not a target crossbow that you cock with your hands. You used a windlass (like a modern hoist) or an articulated lever to force the string back to the point where the nut held it. The nut was the crossbow’s sear and it was in direct contact with the trigger.
This modern hoist can handle up to two tons. The crossbow windlass was similar, just not as robust.
The force that the ancient crossbow trigger restrained was many times greater than the force of a modern spring-piston mainspring. The trigger also wasn’t what we see today — a curved lever pulled by a single finger. It was usually a straight or slightly curved lever that was squeezed up into the bottom of the stock by the entire hand.
A drawing of the early crossbow trigger from the book, The Crossbow. The trigger is pulled up to the bottom of the stock by the entire hand. Shown in the cocked position.
The nut
The crossbow nut is the sear that interfaces with both the bowstring and the trigger. It was made from animal horn, and as I mentioned held hundreds of pounds of force in check until the right moment.
A drawing of the early crossbow trigger from the book, The Crossbow. The nut is the circular piece labeled A.
The nut took tremendous force and made it smooth through a rotating axle. Though the force from the bowstring was great, the small notch in the edge of the nut allowed the square end of the trigger to block its rotation. Six hundred years ago some brilliant crossbow maker designed a mechanical way to restrain a huge force with minimal effort!
Fast-forward to today
Well, not exactly today. Try 40 years ago. That’s when some brilliant engineer at Crosman decided to resurrect this ancient design to build an inexpensive airgun trigger that was both super light and very adjustable. The time was the late 1960s/early ’70s and the gun was the Crosman 160.
This time the sear (nut) only held back 12-15 pounds of spring force. That meant the amount of sear engagement could be very small, giving the trigger a crisp release. And all the springs in the trigger could also be small, which helped with the lightness of the pull.
Not a great photograph, but it does show the parts of an actual Crosman 160 trigger.
What have we learned?
Today I hope you have learned that by studying the past we can learn to build for the future. This Crosman trigger is a good one, but it isn’t the last word in airgun triggers. I have designs for several other triggers that would be just as effective and perhaps even less expensive to manufacture. For that to happen, though, the corporate suits and bean counters would have to stand aside and let the innovators take over for awhile.
The Rekord trigger is the gold standard in airgun triggers. It has been for a long time. Anyone who has read anything about airguns knows this. How much effort do you think Weihrauch put into creating that design? Perhaps quite a lot. And how long have they been making the Rekord? A minimum of 60 years!
Do you think perhaps the cost of the Rekord’s development was offset by the number of decades the company has been producing it, the hundreds of thousands of guns it has been installed in and the honor of having the acknowledged finest airgun trigger in the world?
Another excellent tutorial. I look at the drawings, but it does not fall into place for me for understanding the actual operation. Speaking of triggers, is the Umarex P08 blowback trigger the same type of mechanism as the actual firearm’s trigger. I have a Legends PO8 blowback whose trigger mechanism or linkage failed. The rear linkage or strap towards the rear of the gun pistol broke , thus not firing the pistol. It was out of warranty , but I was so impressed with the complexity of the pistol, bought another and am very careful with it
K7uqshooter,
The firearm Luger trigger does differ from the one in the P-08. I doubt they are close enough to call the airgun the same type as the firearm.
B.B.
K7uqshooter,
The bowstring is held by the hook on the nut. When the trigger bar is squeezed, it pulls out of the notch on the nut’s edge and the force of the bowstring rotates the nut as it releases.
The airgun trigger works exactly the same except instead of a bowstring there is a striker being held by the sear, which is the same as the nut. It is shown working in the opposite direction, but they both operate exactly the same.
That rotating nut is the key feature.
B.B.
Thank you BB . Makes more sense now. Wow, what a challenging hobby I have gotten into . It would help if I were a mechanical engineer . Perhaps that is why some of us enjoy it so much. Intricate parts assembled to ultimately “in my case” punch holes in paper targets or kill the rabid coke cans . Sure is fun !
K7uqshooter,
I have posted this before, but I don’t know if you have seen it. Scroll down past the color pictures and the animated demonstrations. The first two are of the Air Arms TX200 trigger. The first one is just the trigger mechanism and the second shows how this from cocking to release. You just step through the process. The other animations are also worth viewing.
http://www.arld1.com/
~ken
Hi Ken. Very nice site and I have bookmarked it. Thank you for sharing.
Harvey
Ken thank you very much for that link.
And please don’t take this wrong.
The only thing that link doesn’t show is the actual shooting results.
You know we can talk about this stuff all day long. But if you don’t get out and shoot and collect your own data how do you really know what it means.
Gunfun1, I don’t disagree with you at all. Still, I believe this sight helped me understand come things that relate well to my actual shooting. But that is all it does. As you say, we have to shoot and collect our own data to gain a fuller understanding of what it all means. ~ken
Ken
Definitely alot of good info there.
The more info the better and the more practice even more better. So yes for sure a win, win situation.
🙂
Ken,
I have that saved from quite awhile ago. Now that I think about it, it may have been you that provided it,….if so,…thank you once again.
It has to be one of the (very best) “tools” I have ever seen or used. The illustrations and interactive features, motion features, stop/start features, etc. are great.
I can not recommend it enough for all air-gunners, especially new air-gunners. Chris
Chris, I believe the illustrations with all of the features helped me get some good understanding of how things work, then I was able to do some shooting and gain some real world data to compare and to gain some real world understanding. But, yes, I do very much like the illustrations provided. ~ken
The trigger is one of the major reasons I do not own a Crosman sproinger. They also need to relearn how to make a rifle stock.
This trigger is for a striker of a CO2 gun, not a springer.
Correct but I see no reason it couldn’t be used in a Springer. Do you?
No, I think your right. It could be made to work.
I was not referring to this particular trigger assembly. Perhaps if Crosman did use it for their sproingers, they would be better off.
For how many years now have people been buying after market trigger repair kits for Crosman sproingers. You would think they would catch on after awhile.
RR
I agree. The Crosman springer triggers are junk.
Will they ever catch on? Who knows. I hope soon though. I would probably get another one. But not the way they are now.
GF1,
Not me. The trigger is not the only deal killer. If we ignore the Mattelomatic style stock (another deal killer), you still have the barrel pivot pin. Let us say you have a bit of play up front and your barrel will move from side to side a bit, thus trashing your accuracy. Normally you would just tighten the barrel pivot screw a bit and life is good again. With the Crosman design you need to remove the stock, remove the barrel pivot pin and barrel, compress the block arms together with something like a vise and hope you do not scar it up in the process and then see whether or not you compressed it too much or you can resort to shimming and hope that works for you or you can sell it at an airgun show to some unsuspecting newbie.
I don’t think so. Crosman has a real long way to go before I buy one, except maybe REAL cheap at a yard sale. Then I might be inclined to tinker with it and see if I can fix it.
RR
Sounds like some other brand spring guns I know of also.
Probably the only guns you will find that ain’t like you just described are the German guns. And some of the other high end guns that cost twice as much as the Crosman guns.
As far as springers go that’s why I spend the extra money and get the high end guns. And I only like a few of those guns. Like the under levers and side lever guns. I will take a fixed barrel gun over a break barrel anyday. But that’s my personal preference.
Speaking of personal preference. That probably makes a difference in a person’s choice of guns. Just because I don’t like break barrels as much as fixed barrels doesn’t mean somebody else thinks the same .
Sounds like you might be able to live with one of these Ruger’s. My Impact even came with a picattiny riser already mounted in the dovetail. I guess the only way to check if they also addressed the droop issue would be to pull it off and mount directly to the dovetail but it’s shooting too good to mess up.
I got mine for $140, it’s got enough wood to show off for 2 guns. My only gripe is the huge silencer and it’s fragile fiber optic sight but really like this gun! It hits with authority and pretty much dead-on outta the box
Reb,
Like GF1 commented, a lot of it can be personal tastes. I would not be happy with a Ruger because of the glowy thingy sights. I could likely go with a Walther Terrus because I can take them off and if I am not mistaken, the Walther LGV iron sights will fit.
The Ruger Impact does have a nice stock and the Picattiny rail is a plus.
I had a Ruger Air Hawk a while back that I picked up at a yard sale. It was OK, but the trigger was unpredictable. Most of the time it had a creepy second stage, but sometimes it would have a light, crisp pull. You never knew what you were going to get.
I see.
I’ve checked with local game management and it’s still not legal to take any game animals with an airgun but they have added the crossbow as a legal means, I believe you had to be declared disabled to legally take game with them up to that point.
Reb
You could become disabled by shooting a crossbow .
You could screw up your back cocking it . Pulling up the string from a bent over position is hard on the back .
Then there is a problem if you should get your fingers in the way of the cables or the string when you shoot it .
Very dangerous piece of equipment .
twotalon
Yes, they can be crude and dangerous but I ran a six now range for a couple months and the first thing I’d tell my shooters was keep clear of the string.
They’re also very stealthy and can be extremely accurate!
Reb
Mine was pretty noisy . I also found that individual bolts tended to shoot different places than others did . A matter of testing with picking the ones that behaved most alike .
twotalon
We had dedicated bolts for each bow and it made a big difference even which Fletch was on top.
Reb, you may already be familiar with this, but just in case I’ll post it again. B.B. got a kick out of this, or at least a chuckle. This is the Parker Concorde crossbow. I’ll post links because I can do it justice, although I still think we can create a springer that works similarly.
http://www.parkerbows.com/concorde_operations.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq5JOtTEnH4
Of course, staying clear of the string is still a good idea.
~ken
I tried to see what you shared but got an Error on the first one and the other took too long to load, of course it would help if ATT would stop throttling my data so blatantly.
I just got back from a ride and looked it up.
I’ll bet someone’s done a mod to convert it to HPA by now. That was the top caveat I found, that it depends on Co2. Cool tool!
That crossbow reminds me of a joke about how an engineer hangs a picture frame.
LOL! I am with you Sam!
I work in engineering and I have always tried to remember rule #1: K.I.S.S.
I was wondering how the accuracy compared to an archery bow. Stands to reason that it would be better from a more stable platform with the extra control of a trigger mechanism. And they are certainly more powerful. The only disadvantage compared to a bow would be rate of fire. However, a crossbow seems close enough to a gun that I haven’t seen the point of investing the money.
Matt61
TT
I had a crossbow when I was in my upper teens.
It had the foot stirrup I guess you call it and I cocked it by hand. I didn’t have the string to wrap around the bow string to cock it.
I do remember that because of how low it was to the ground. And how I had to bend over to cock it that my back would start hurting.
And yes that crossbow did need to be payed attention to when I operated it.
BB–I have a replica medieval crossbow. The trigger mechanism is exactly like the one in your report. The nut does not have a trunion to keep it in place. It is a loose fit in the recess of the stock. It is kept in the stock by a removable side plate. It is a marvel of simplicity and works well. I have never seen a safety on this type of crossbow, and you have to be very careful once it is cocked. I wrap my left hand around the stock to form a trigger (lever) block safety, while I place the quarrel in the stock groove. I never leave the xbow cocked. I take the shot soon after I cock and load. It is fun too shoot, but I would not walk around with it, once it is cocked. I have the Payne-Gallwey book, and read the library copy many years before I bought the 1992 soft cover edition . Its a unique and wonderfull book. Ed
Ed,
Thank you for that description of your crossbow. Do you use a goat-foot lever to cock it, or do you have a windlass?
This is interesting, but I’m not sure I really understand trigger mechanics and design.
For example, the Rekord trigger has more parts that have to move in order to release the piston. I would assume that this is done so the trigger blade only has to release a part with little tension on it which then releases the piston with a *lot* of tension on it. So maybe the complexity might help to keep the trigger weight down…
Even if I’m right, reality is probably more complex than that and designing a light yet safe trigger is probably not a trivial task.
It’s all about leverage. The Egyptian’s where doing that when they were building the Pyramids.
GF,
so those interconnected “levers” really just pack more leverage into a smaller package? I suppose that would make sense…
CK
Yep. When you adjust the screws your changing how the metal pieces contact each other and change the position of the leverage point.
It’s like taking a long board and putting a short bord crossways under the middle of the long board. It will lift equally that way if you push on either end of the board.
Then if you was to move the long board over a fair amount of distance. And try to push on either end of the board. One end would push easy the other end would be harder to push. Or lift let’s say if you had a object on the opposite end.
So that’s what the trigger does. Your adjusting it to contact differently to make it release when you want and at the amount of resistance you want. Just think of the 2 screws in the trigger as that piece of long board. When you adjust those screws it changes how it contacts the piece of metal that is holding your gun from firing.
Are you talking about the Rekord? Cause that sounds nice. ⊙
Reb I’m just talking about triggers in general.
But with the 2 adjusting screws that would resemble a two stage trigger. If it had 1 adjusting screw in the trigger blade then it would be a single stage.
Then of course most of the time there is a srew for the spring tension pull weight. Then some triggers have another screw that has the trigger stop.
35 shots and still going!
Reb at what distance?
You know at the longer distances your POI will drop off quicker and more than likely give you a less amount of usable shots.
My standard 8yds but I just finished shot 45 and still going, I’m getting tired but it’s still hitting close enough to call good. Wow,I’m gonna get as many shots as a 12 gram Co2 cartridge!
Time to open up the transfer port!
I wanted to do as much testing as I could while it was stock but on HPA instead of Co2 to compliment Hiveseeker’s report but it’s time for more power, last time I clocked it with Monsters I believe it was just about 400fps and just under 500fps with standard weights. I’d like to get it to 600fps with standard weights and over 5 with Monsters.
Open up the transfer port and add a striker adjuster, in case I wanna conserve and I got my first PCP.
Reb you remember when you had your El Camino.
Ain’t it funny how hop’n em up and make’n perform better always finds a way into the equation.
Theses air guns are definitely some fun stuff. 🙂
Off topic
Can you explain how to check remaining air pressure in an airgun without it’s own gauge? For example, the Crosman 2240 with the HIPAC HPA conversion. The Foster fitting has it’s own check valve, so how do you et a reading buy connecting to the Foster fitting.
Jonah
If your using a hand pump. When you start pumping the gauge on the pump will come up fast. Then stop. And usually if you listen hard enough you can hear a click from the Foster fitting opening. That should show your pressure left in your gun.
If you fill with a bottle its the same. Just open the bottle very slowly. You will see the gauge come up fast and hear a click from the Foster fitting. That should again be the pressure left in your gun.
Thanks for sharing!
I finally got a reading on my 2400 the last time I topped it off of 8-900psi
Reb that sounds about right for the end pressure.
How many shots do you get out of it and what is your start pressure? 2000 psi.
That sounds like something to do today.
I always have something come up to help me lose track. I usually do go to 2000 and probably getting 30-40 shots.
My assistant kinda flaked on me and hasn’t been back since I left for the show so I may go talk to a girl about the job later but I’ll have a shotcount by the end of the weekend.
Ok l like to know what you come up with. Your only useing the hi-pac and no extension right.
HIPac +1 extension, otherwise still stock including the hammerspring because I tried everything short of cutting it to make the one included with the HiPac work, it was much stiffer but felt like I hit coilbind just before the sear caught, it was so close I tried it again after a few days and still no glory.
Reb what do you mean by work?
You where trying to get the velocity to come up by increasing the spring pressure?
I could pull the bolt back until it bottomed out but no sear engagement, it could use a trim.
Oh and yea the one included with the hi-pac I never did figure out what it was suppose to be used for.
It was definitely to heavy to use for the striker or the valve.
You would be better off with the adjustable end cap and spring from a 2300s.
Here’s the Crosman part number.
2300-124
Thanks for the part number, interesting there’s only one though Does the adjuster come with the spring?
I got part numbers written on a paper with their description of what they are.
That number should be the complete assembly with the cap, adjuster, spring and a spacer if I remember right.
The first 5 left a ..098 ctc hole so I’m thinking I’m ready to raise the fill pressure until I start losing power.
These were 25.39gr Monsters and I pulled the scope off so that’s open sights and of course my standard 8yds, 5 down.
Reb
Do you mean a .980″ center to center hole?
Aren’t you shooting .22 caliber pellets out of your gun. They are .220″ respectively. Right.
.098″ would mean they where one on top of the other.
I guess I ran it out and left it empty because when I hooked up to the pump to check fill pressure it stayed on 0. About the fourth pump started being work.
I lost track of how many pumps around 27 but it’s @2000psi now and it’s break-time.
Reb it probably leaked down after time. Has it been awhile since you shot it?
And when you get finnished shooting the gun. Right after your done and hook up the pump. Then pump until you see the needle stop. That will give your end pressure.
What’s happening when you first start pumping is your filling up the hose to the gun. That’s why the gauge goes up fast. It has that small volume of space to fill. Then when the gauge needle stops moving and you hear the click that you now pumped enough to be equal to the air that’s left in your gun.
That’s what I had to do when I was tunning my Talon SS that didn’t have the spin lock tanks with the gauge on the gun bottle. I had to hook up and pump the gun up to see where I ended.
Maybe it wasn’t completely empty because I remember the needle moving fast at one point.
Thanks!
BB– the bow on my xbow has a draw weight of 30 lbs., so I can cock it by hand. This bow was made to conform with the society of ancient anachronisms rules. Sometimes I use a cocking device that I made out of a pair of hooks, 2 pulleys and light rope. Now that I am 78+ years old, I use the rope cocker most of the time. At short range (10-15 M), it puts its quarrels in the gold, most of the time. I make my bolts from broken arrows . Ed
Ed,
More good info. I will look into the Society of Ancient Anachronisms.
B.B.
Gunfun1,
Yeah, I remember the El Camino, I saw it when I had my cerebral angiography done back in Jan. I laid on the ground to check the exhaust system and that’s all my work. I hate to think about the price somebody bought it for when I poured all that into it but it’s not the first time I lost something like that. The rich always have a little something lying in wait for such opportunities that arise when times get tough maybe when I grow up I can get a job as a rich guy
🙂
Reb I had a lot of cars that came and went like your El Camino.
Great memories for sure.
What kind of memories have you been making lately?
BB– Members of the society are often found at medieval and Renaissance fairs. When I lived on Long (Looong, if my friend Ray is watching) Island, they had a fair every year at Sands Point. There were several mansions there, and the large stable building was built to resemble a castle. We have a fair at Sterling Forest, but I stopped going when they banned archery events. They even banned the sale of bows and Xbows. The prices were sky high, their sales were small, but the management banned them anyway. This is New York State, so it should not be a surprise. Ed
Thank God for choice.
And we make our own destiny.
Ed,
I have always been fascinated by the crossbow’s design, and the medieval crossbow is the one I fixate on. If I were to get one, it would have to be original in most every way. I have even considered buying a real antique, just to have it. They are not cheap, but a few are affordable — like a 10-meter rifle.
B.B.
All,
Great article. For anyone that “plays” with the mechanics of air guns, the trigger is often the “last frontier” to explore.
Having only just started, I have adjusted the trigger on the TX200, (pull weight only) and the LGU, (first stage “yankee tune” mod. and pull weight).
Question: Regarding (trigger stop,…trigger travel after the gun fires),….is it possible to adjust this?,…even if the trigger does (not) have a stop screw feature? OR, once adjusted to one’s liking, you got what you got? I would like a short travel, or in other words,..have it stop soon/just after firing.
Any input appreciated,…(busy most of the day, so replies might be later in the day/evening). Thanks, Chris
Chris USA
I like trigger stops too. The Marauder pistol, 1720T, 2300s have trigger stops. They use a set screw in the back of the trigger gaurd that you can adjust.
And the when you have a two stage trigger the two setscrews for the first and second stage can be adjusted to get almost all of the movement out after the shot goes off.
I have my Tx adjusted where it has about a 1/16″ of travel after the shot goes off. I could maybe get less if I mess with it some more.
How much travel do you have after the shot goes off with your Tx?
GF1,
You know I like a light trigger, and you seem to like a heavier trigger. Soooo,….I don’t know that I could adjust mine and get the same (1/16) over-travel and still keep the same light release. Since neither of us has a trigger gauge, that does not help matters any. That will change,…on my end.
As for my travel, I will shoot tomorrow and let you know. I have been trying to do the “full pull through and hold” as you recommended. While it’s been a week, I think both have a substantial amount.
I am sure I could do the screw in the back of the trigger guard(s). I was just asking and exploring my options before doing anything.
A clamp with a screw would be another option, but it would have to be small and look good as well.
Thanks for the reply, I was hoping for more suggestions/ideas/facts, (from others as well). We’ll see.
One thought I had,….that no matter how you adjust the 1st and 2nd and pull….(once released),…the over travel will (always be the same). From your reply, that must not be the case. Unless, you have learned that a heavier pull = less over travel.?
Oh, on a side note, Hector from the USA Team, said that a light release is not desirable, at least not at the professional level. But, that may be his personal preference/style too? 1-2# and clean and crisp I believe were his words. You also mentioned that you adjust/time the trigger for the shot cycle of a particular gun. (That is of most interest). You got that figured out?,……maybe a guest blog?,…..yea,….I said it! 😉
B.B.,….care to “weigh in” on trigger pull weight and over travel/stop with regards to accuracy? Maybe an article?
Thanks all, Chris
Chris USA
My trigger is light on my Tx. Probably around 1.5 pounds. I know I mentioned before that it is way lighter than the LGU you got from me.
And you know that not srews can be adjusted together the same amouts in or out. Then you can screw one and the other. There is alot of adjustment in the trigger. You just have try it different ways and see what happens.
Right now my first stage on the Tx is extremely long. Probably more than 3/4 of the triggers total travel.
How much travel is your first stage on your Tx?
Let me try again.
And you know that the screws can be adjusted together the same amounts in or out. Then you can screw one in or one out.
GF1,
I did not know that. First stage is long on both I would say….which for me is ok,….I think of it as another “safety”,…as long as I can feel the 2nd start. (solid)
With no gauge, I would guess the TX is well into the ounces and the LGU is around 1-2#.
While you have much more experience than me, I can not believe that you do not own a trigger gauge. Experience is nice, but data takes out the guess work. = More time shooting.
“No bite” on the guest blog?,…..I thought that for sure I would get one. Mmmmmm…..anyone else think that it’s a good idea? Pick your topic.
Chris
Chris USA
Why do I need a trigger gauge.
My finger is the gauge. It tells me everything I need to know.
😉
GF1,
😉 Ohhhh,….the whole “experience” thing. I get it.
With all due respect, you are a “regular” here,.. and have offered invalueable advice to many. And, you do seem to pretty tech. savy. And you do rotate your “stable” of airguns pretty often,….and I might add,…that you seem to know how to put ’em through their paces and make ’em work,….or not. Just an idea,…on the guest blog thing.
Will keep you posted on over-travel. Too “whooped” to shoot now. AM is my time. Targets made,….just need to blow some holes through ’em……… 🙂
Chris
Chris USA
BB always use to ask me about doing a guest blog on subjects that came up.
I don’t really care to do a guest blog. And what I use to always say to BB is why wait. Let’s talk about it now.
Now is when we are asking about the info. Now is when I want to know. That’s my thinking on it anyway.
And yea I’m out shooting. Hot, hot, hog out is all I can say. Even shooting from the breezway. Starting to get some shade from the trees and house now though. So from right now till it gets dark is my best part of the day.
And are you shooting both the Tx and LGU in a same day shooting session?
My wonderful phone again.
Hot, hot, hog.
How about Hot, hot, hot out.
GF1,
Yea, both on the same day. And yea, I would agree on the guest blog bit,….but,…still,….maybe just one? The whole timing the trigger to the shot cycle would be a real big deal,…at least to me. At least the “theory” end of it anyways…
Later,…Chris
GF1,
“Hot hog”,….? Sound’s like a pig roast to me!…..Count me in! I’ll bring the hot sauce!
Chris USA
Well let me ask you this.
Wasn’t the trigger on the LGU when you got it from me a little heavy. Didn’t it have a little bump to the shot cycle.
Well what I did is I backed the spring pressure off then did 5 shot groups after the gun was sighted. Then I kept adjusting the spring pressure heavier each 5 shot group I shot. When my POA and follow through stayed the same as well as my POI then that’s when I stop adjusting the pressure on the trigger. And remember I also use trigger follow through on guns that have fixed actions.
That’s what I do. I really don’t know if its timming the shot to the shot cycle I just call it that. But at least when I do that it does allow me to follow through easier on my shots if that makes any sense.
GF1,
Wow,….blow my mind,…..not sure I get it,…but I like the sounds of it. I will give it a try on the LGU. Yes, it was a bit heavy, too heavy for me,…but I will give it a try.
“Bump” to the shot cycle???? Not sure I even know what that is. Other than the “bump” of a springer. The “finer” point’s of the “bump” comes with the experience I would have to guess.
I look foward to testing your idea. I know where it was as sent…so I will know the (data) as I adjust.
See, that’s what I meant,…right there,…you got a lot to offer. Chris
Chris USA
I don’t know if this will post in the right place.
Hot, hot, hog. Yep I’m BBQ’n right now also. So I guess I got the BBQ on the mind.
Looks like multi tasking ain’t working for me today. Shoot’n, BBQ’n and blog’n and some cold beverages of course ain’t mixing.
I said this before. No drinking while writing.
🙂
Chris USA
Let me know that trigger pressure adjusting goes.
GF1,
See bottom for reply. Chris
Those crossbows look like fun. I have neither shot a crossbow nor a regular bow though and I guess they are more fun outdoors at greater distances.
Match bows appear look a *lot* like match air rifles (very similar stocks and sights) so I guess anyone who’s good with one is probably also pretty good with the other…
Do you want to hear something funny? In Germany, it’s illegal to have an airgun with more than 7.5 joules of energy without a permit.
However you can buy any crossbow you like and shoot it as long as you don’t do it in public. As far as I know, those things easily put out around 150 joules and cause *really* nasty injuries.
There may be two reasons for this: The legal definition of “shooting” (according to law) is to blow a projectile out of a barrel. Since bows don’t have barrels, it’s not really shooting…
The second reason is probably that they’re bulky. Thus they’re no good for conceiled carry in comparison to pocket guns like the Diana 34 or HW97 🙂
If you’re going to practice with a bow or crossbow it’s best to start with the lightweight stuff and keep the range down to about 20yds or less and sheltered from wind so indoors works well for that.
The first time I shot a compound bow was in Mo with a borrowed bow. And it was actually a field target range outdoors, all the extra accoutrements for the compound bow were confusing at first but I was doing well on the 40′ station and had a blast
CptKlotz—You must have big pockets in Germany! Ed
Right, here in the good ole USA all I can afford is Chinese clones but I got one of both.
I have a Diana 31P which is a 34 with a black stock. I don’t have an HW97. I just mentioned it for humorous reasons 🙂
Still, Weihrauchs are more affordable here, making some of them excellent deals. The HW40 (Beeman P3) can be had for € 115 (~ US$ 130). How’s that for a super-accurate little one-stroke pneumatic?
Well the 1377 American Classic is now cocking and holding but I think I’ll be putting together an order for some Crosman parts
Also got a few shots outta a Crosman 766 that sounded better than my Airmaster but further testing on both it and the 1377 proved them to be unreliable, maybe I just milked the last bit of life outta the seals?
B.B.
Trigger on my Mk.0 was a crossbreed between Rekord design and crossbow trigger 🙂 I wonder why Crosman came with the idea this late, because in fact springer is technically a crossbow, with compressed air acting as bowstring.
I am reworking my Mk.II design for 30 mm tube. No luck with getting 28 mm one, and 30 mm is readily available, it’s a honed blank for hydraulics cylinders. Luckily no money spent on main coupling yet.
duskwight
I had thought that the Rekord was the best airgun trigger, but I thought there was a blog post saying that there are better quality ones like the Feinwerkbau target triggers. Is the Rekord just the best sporting trigger? And what exactly would that mean in terms of performance?
Interesting about the trigger mechanism of the crossbow. I’m learning more about the principle of trigger operation although I’m not quite there yet. That’s an interesting point about how the crossbow triggers restrained 600 pounds of force which is way more than any airgun trigger. The airgun trigger I get. You have bearing surfaces oriented at more or less right angles to the resisting force, and these surfaces slide past each other with trigger movement until the release point. But with 600 pounds of force, the bearing surfaces (which I can’t quite make out in the diagram) must have had gigantic static friction, more than could be overcome with finger strength. Even by constantly lubricating the bearing surfaces, I don’t see how this could work.
But the force of crossbows is no joke. Princess Anna Comnena, part of the last of the Byzantine royalty before their city was sacked by the Crusaders, was amazed at the power of the Western crossbows. She wrote that the Crusaders had a mysterious “engine” (crossbow) whose bolts could go right through walls. I also understand that in designing the joints for astronaut suits, NASA copied the later versions of Western medieval armor. While the samurai swords were probably a little superior in design and construction to Western swords, there was no beating the Western armor.
Matt61
Matt,
yes, the Rekord is an excellent *sporter* trigger. An FWB300S trigger is much lighter and possibly even crisper, but the gun would be very dangerous for anything but target shooting as it has no safety and the trigger responds to the slightest touch.
So that is the performance difference of a sporting trigger.
Matt61
The Chinese were building fairly complicated crossbow triggers from bronze as long as 2300 years ago or longer. Pretty interesting thing to google . Somehow they never invented the fork though .
Yes, I was surprised at how far back the design goes.
Matt61
Got a 102 & 105 shooting today,those are two of the sweetest BB GUN triggers I’ve ever had the pleasure of pulling! The 105 still has part of the safety sticker on it’s buttplate and the one on the cocking lever housing and an automatic safety on it’s right and hits hard, both have metal cocking levers and the 102 has a wood stock.
Wow! I just opened up my first Coleman era 760, I still have yet to see inside one of the wood stocked ones but this is a totally different animal! I may need to dig up some schematics to print off.
The rifling in this barrel looks crisp and clean, I May just have to keep this one! If I can get it fixed and back together, the hammer was jammed in some crud and the spring is collapsed. Maybe I can come up with a use for the HIPac spring! The parts in my 760ss are well massaged but I don’t know how many will swap?
I’ve seen 2 piece pins on higher end gun teardowns but never really thought I’d see em on the likes of a Crosman 760, and I only have one to fit the biggest one.
I may have to learn how to use photobucket before I get in over my head again.
I can think of no worse failure in restoring vintage airguns than reducing one to a pile of parts.
GF1,
Sorry to say, after 75 shots, no conclusion on trigger pull weight with regards to accuracy. I did 5 shot groups and turned the screw IN 1/2 turn at a time. My best groups were at 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 turns in,..(16mm). On the other hand, 10 shots at 3 turns IN were 37mm and 10 shots at 3 turns OUT were 23mm which is around my LGU avg. @ 30yds.
I would say that my steady would be at fault. May try again in the future. As for shot cycle, I can not say I noticed any difference for sure. Chris
Chris USA
So sounds like 2 turns in, whatever that may be gave you the best results. The 16 mm groups.
Sounds like that pressure is the best for you. How was your follow through on the different pressures you tryed. Was the 2 turns and 16 mm groups the best for follow through. Or did you even pay attention to that. And I mean follw through of POA and POI. Did the gun move more or less with the different spring pressure’s.
GF1,
Yea, but note the 10 shot data,..the 3 out beat the 3 in. As for moving less or more and follow through, I can not say that I noticed a difference. I guess I have not shot enough to pick up on that,….either that or I am a real slow learner.
The groups, starting with 3 out, were 20,..and then a half turn out 6X, 19,21,16,18,16 and 22. On the 10 shot groups, I did the extremes of a full 3 in and 3 out. I may try 10X at the 1 1/2 ~ 2 1/2 in tomorrow. If that works, I will be surprised. If it does, both 10X groups should improve. Chris
Chris USA
Ok try tomorrow and let me know. But watch your follow through and see if you can notice the gun staying on aim point better with different spring pressure settings.
If the guns staying in place better on your follow through then something has to be happening better. Then it’s how well your holding the gun on target at that point.
GF1,
Aye-aye Captin. Chris
GF1,
Second paragraph (…and then a half a turn out 6X),….should read (half a turn IN 6X) Chris
Chris USA
I know, I know.
But remember you asked me about this trigger pressure thing.
🙂
GF1,
I did, I did. And,…I did check it out today and will tommorow. As for typo’s,…what was that?,…certain refreshments and typing don’t mix? 😉 Out’a here,…..Chris
Chris USA
Why you say?
You had a few today? Beverages that is. 🙂
It’s hard work keeping a grown man cool! 🙂
Reb
Ain’t that the truth.
This past weekend was spent with the back door/range open and pumping various multi pumpers ’til I felt like a 30# Turkey in full ascent.
I tried lighter fluid and it works (for a little while) but it just milked a few last shots out of both guns I used it in. Just confirmed the pump cups are in need of replacement.
Reb
You just been tearing into them guns haven’t you.
Maybe time to take a break. Don’t over exert yourself.
Oh, I’m feeling it but I’m on the verge of a breakthrough!
Reb
Sounds like you got a grab bag of excitement when you bought that barrel. 🙂
The one I really wanna get into is the Daisy 120 but I need a Daisy tool and I guess I’ll have to build one.
Reb
Never had one so can’t help you out there.
But you mentioned photo bucket before. So if you come up with the tool post a picture if you can.
Got some feedback on the issue of scope height over bore. Victor confirms that as your scope height goes up, the value of each click of adjustment is greater although the difference is probably not significant. Another very authoritative source tells me that based on geometry a gun that is zeroed at 25 yards should, at 100 yards, hit 3 times higher than the scope height. I think this is another way of saying what was established that different scope heights can change your zero a significant amount. However, this is an explicit relationship between scope height and movement of the impact point, and it is a closer connection than I thought. Also, a Delta Force veteran that I am reading indicates that scope height is important in the zeroing process although he doesn’t go into the principles. But I certainly respect the opinion of Delta Force.
For lovers of power in shooting, I see that a real English war bow can be had for less than $400 with a pull weight of as much as 120 pounds. The arrow shafts are half an inch thick, and the field points weigh 400 grains! That is comparable to centerfire rifles. My bow uses 125 grain target fieldpoints which is about the weight of bullets for my Saiga/AK. A 400 grain point would be comparable to an elephant gun! A package of three arrows costs $120, or $40 each. With the power of those bows, you had better watch where you shoot. One thing holding me back is that I don’t see how you could string one with a bowstringer without throwing your back out.
Even though these bows are modeled on original specimens, the real thing had a much heavier pull weight of 180 pounds, but I actually witnessed someone shooting one of these heavier models on YouTube. The technique was a little weird looking with the person not pulling the bow straight back but pointing it high and low throughout the draw. But it actually makes sense. As I believe Titus Groan pointed out, the way to draw a heavy bow–at least in the traditional martial arts technique–is to start with the bow pointed up. Then with the lead arm extended, drop the bow down in an arc, using gravity to draw the string with the rear arm. This technique I saw seems to be repeating the process, breaking the draw length into parts.
Could this be the great secret? Hmph. It’s not too elegant. I also think it is unlikely that amateurs today would be using the same technique as people who practiced for a lifetime with their peers. Besides the historical archers could shoot a lot faster: 12 arrows a minute instead of just 6. And I don’t think the difference was due to muscle power alone. So I think the secret is still out there somewhere.
On the subject of power, B.B., I cannot figure out how you rebarreled a Springfield 1903 for a .458 Winchester magnum. I don’t see how a receiver designed for the 30-06 could fit those cartridges or handle those pressures. I had to give away a box of 5.56mm bought by accident because it would have damaged my rifle chambered for .223. So I can’t imagine how you could shoot the .458 in the Springfield.
Matt61
Anybody else into steampunk weaponry?
Check out
“Hansel & Gretel Witchhunters”! It’s pretty benign(even with a R rating)so long as you’re not infatuated with witches and got some cool stuff!
The folding ’94 was really cool!
Gunfun1, the Daisy tool I’m talking about is a fork with central slot to clear the trigger parts and pushes on two sides of the spring to relieve pressure while whatever is anchoring it’s removed.
If I could find dimensions at least I’d know what size stock to start with but maybe it’s a trade secret?
I’d really prefer buying one.
Looks like I’ll be building one “seat of the pants style”
I’ve got too many Daisy’s that need work not to have one.
Reb,
Maybe this will help:
/blog/2009/06/bb-gun-disassembly/
B.B.
Looks like just what the BBgun Dr ordered, excellent! I’ll be using it for reference, Thanks B.B!
Reb
I made one out of pvc pipe to get my Marksman apart . I think B.B. did the same thing for something he was working on ..
twotalon
I also wound up with a couple 1894’s in that bunch too, cocking them is a two stroke affair. Any special instructions for them that you know. I should be able to put together one fairly decent one with the parts on hand, so long as I don’t wreck em.
Reb
Something like this , but metal would be better .
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z244/twotalon/tool/DSC00004_zps3rnavgc6.jpg
twotalon
The Felton one I saw had tabs that were close to 1/4″ thick, but yeah something like that!
I also have a” Daisy 360 toy gun” but whatever was supposed to be in the end of the muzzle is missing.
Could I be in violation for having a toy gun with no blaze orange muzzle?
It’s a sweet cocker and has a nice trigger