by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
This report covers:
- Crosman ashcan
- Other pellets were similar
- Competition improves things
- Better pellets were needed!
- Molecular level!
- Crosman Premier!
- Many improvements
Before we start, I have a couple things. Several readers wondered how I could see my computer screen while looking straight down. So I decided to show you.
This chair is offered by Comfort Solutions in Jupiter, FL. It was designed just for the operation I had and has a success rate over 90 percenrt, compared to 60 percent without it. I don’t want to lose my eye, so it was a no brainer. If you are interested, see it at www.facedownsolutiuons.com.
I initially rented it, but this chair is so comfortable that I bought it to use from now on. I will switch between an office chair and this one to ease back strain.
This is how the chair works with a laptop. I see the screen very clearly this way.
Next, Pyramyd Air wants to know if any readers are having difficulties posting their comments. One person complained and they want to know if there are others. Email me at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Now on to today’s report.
We left this tale at the start of the diabolo pellet. It was a landmark shape that changed airgunning, because with it the rifled guns could now be accurate. BSA started the trend in 1905, and other brands soon followed. The guns were all made in the same way as the firearms of the day and today they seem like exotic pieces. We marvel at their wood and steel construction and at the deep lustrous bluing that rivals the finest guns made today. But that was business as usual at the start of the 20th century.
The pellets proliferated, as well. New brands came out all the time, until the market was saturated with them. But the technology stood still. Makers seemed to think they had gone as far as they could go, and from 1910 through about 1955 there were no real advances in pellet design. I guess the makers believed that pellet guns were as good as they were ever going to get.
Let me show just one pellet to tell the story. Crosman produced a diabolo that conformed to the general design as closely as any other. They had a wasp waist and hollow tail just like all of them. But they kept using the die and refreshing it as needed until gradually the wasp waist went away. In the late 1960s we called them Crosman ashcans, because that was what they looked like.
I thought that was what they were supposed to look like for many years until I had the opportunity to speak with a Crosman engineer from that time. He told me they used the die too long. And then I heard from several collectors who actually had the same pellet from different lots over the years that showed the gradual disappearance of the waist.
Crosman ashcan pellets (left) are starkly different than Crosman Premiers. The waist is almost gone. Taken from a tin sold in the late 1960s. Disregard the oxidation that has occured.
Other pellets were similar
Don’t jump on Crosman, though. Most pellet makers in this timeframe did the same thing. I have Benjamin domes that look very little like the drawing on the outside of the tin! And I have some British Bulldogs that are pretty rough, as well. I think most makers were just glad to put out a product. They didn’t worry too much about how it performed. At least until around the 1960s.
Competition improves things
Europe started rebuilding after the war and in the 1950s the various economies started to settle down. Sport has always been big in the European nations and shooting has long been a respected sport. Airguns were taken seriously throughout the continent, and target models began to emerge, with Walther leading the way, followed by Weihrauch.
Better pellets were needed!
The new target guns required the best ammunition and a couple companies started making them. H&N was an early leader in this move. RWS was not far behind. Soon shooters woke up to the fact that all pellets are not created equal and the diabolo accuracy race began. It is impossible to put a date on this, as it happened over the course of more than a decade, but the move to improve pellets was very real.
During a visit to the H&N factory in the late ’80s, Dr. Beeman was told that if pellets were to get any better it would have to be at the molecular level! That turned out to be an overstatement that I will address later, but it wasn’t that far off the mark. By the 1980s H&N was producing pellets that were used at the World Cup and Olympic levels, but could also be purchased by the common shooter. This is not always the case in high-level competition, but it was for pellets. But they hadn’t quite gone as far as they could go — yet!
In the early 1990s, close to the middle of the decade, Crosman brought out a domed pellet that rocked the world. It out-shot all other domed pellets in the growing sport of field target. The Crosman Premier was the result of applying aerodynamics to pellet shape, to get the smoothest possible flight through the air. Right from the start, Premiers caught everyone’s attention. And the interest they aroused started another round of pellet improvements. The goal was to make a pellet that was just as good as Premiers. The dream was to make one that was even better.
At the close of the 20th century the diabolo pellet world was exploding. Big companies were experimenting with quality control measures and small companies were trying to get their piece of the pie. New shapes were tried and some actually worked. Others were a disaster!
In the next installment we will look at what has happened to pellets in the past 20 years.
178 thoughts on “The rise of the accurate pellet: Part 2”
I am glad to see you are getting better.
Other than the chiropractor face pad, that chair reminds me of some of the “ergonomic” chairs sold the 80’s.
Glad to see you using a Mac, they are the best. All my certifications are in Windows, but I use a Mac for my personal computer as I don’t have to tinker with it to keep it running smooth.
My wife on the other hand is a Windows user, she claims to be “Macintosh intolerant” but she does love her iPad.
One step at a time…
I don’t have the time or patience to learn about computers. Also, I earn my living on them and can’t afford much downtime. That’s why the Mac. Been using them since they first came out.
I was concerned about neck spasms from all that looking down you were going to be doing …
I knew you were going to need forehead support of some kind to lessen that strain ….
But now, with the picture, I see …
(Pun somewhat intended …)
Glad to see you are doing well. Coincidently, they are looking at some of these type of chairs at work, for some of the more stationary task, minus the head rest. Safe to say, we all admire your resilience and dedication.
I like this series. It reminds me of others written in the past, and/or portions of other articles. I am looking forward to next installment that deals with the current era of developments. Without going into all the exotic head and tail variations, something that stands out to me is the .177 10.34’s that have the straight waist and very short skirts, and the similar HN Sniper series that resemble them. To me, that is quite the departure from the long touted “wasp” waist.
I have not shot the 10.34’s, but have shot the Snipers in .22, in 2 weights. They do pretty well, so there must be something to that idea.
Being the constant “tinkerer” and experimenting with this and that, I picture a mini wind tunnel at a clandestine pellet testing lab that is checking and experimenting with pellet aerodynamics. Kind of like they do with cars and other products that involve air flow, resistance and efficiency. Perhaps you know of such testing?
Best wishes on your continuing improvement.
They are much more conical! Almost to the point of resembling a bullet! I always assumed they were intended for use in the more powerful guns so never spent the money to try them until I received a tin of .22 Monsters from RDNA to try in my 392 and they were as good as any other pellets I had put through it. Then I made a deal with Gunfun1 and he included 3-4 tins of the 10.34’s as well as many other perks! I have since ordered a 5 count of .22 Monsters and .177 pellets of the same shape will be in my next amno order!
Thank y’all for showing me why to get the good stuff guys!
I remember you saying you tryed those .22 pellets also.
I need to search and see if I can find some 35 grain pellets for my .25 caliber Marauder like to he shape of the JSB 10.34’s. I would for sure try a tin of them.
You may have to cut some dies yourself to get the ball rolling! YOU CAN DO IT!
A little more complicated than it seems to make a die.
Now that could be something to think about though. Come up with a new design for a pellet.
IF you build them someone’s gonna buy em!
IF they’re good everyone Will! Your chance to shine!
Or another missed opportunity!
Your giving me more credit than I deserve. I can make alot of things on a Bridgeport or lathe or surface grinders. Or set up the machines at work and write some CNC programs. But it’s more complicated than you think.
I can easily make a die to swage some pellets like BB talked about in the past that look like the old cylinder style Sheridan pellets. But making a die to produce quality pellets would be harder than what meets the eye.
I think alot more credit is due to the pellet manufacturers of today. I think I can safely say that people don’t realize what work is involved to make quality and consitent pellets one after the other.
I think I will just leave the pellet making to the big boys and buy what I like and enjoy shooting my air guns.
Thanks for responding to this one.What most people fail to realize is that a single die will make a great many pellets at one time. It doesn’t just make them one at a time.
Each cavity has to be as similar to the others as is humanly possible, and there will still be variances. That’s one reason why pellet head sizes differs.
No problem and you know what gets me all the time.
I will have people come up to me and ask me to make something for them on the lathes and such we have at work. They always go oh you can do it. It will be easy. And I think to myself if that’s so why ain’t you making it. But I respond back nicely that it might take some time to make correctly. Then I explain what some of the difficulty’s will be and ask them if I was to make that dimension off a little bit from what they want would it affect the way the part works. They go yes it probably won’t fit. Then I tell them well how many dimensions are on this one part I’m going to make for you. Then they finally get it.
More involved than what people think is all I can say.
See! You’d only have to make one as a proof of. concept then submit your design as a prototype after covering the legal aspects. Let them finish the rest such as R&D
Ok help me think of a new design that we can submit.
As I said. Think of a new design.
Remember the single shot tray you made for our Hatsans. I sent you the measurements to make it from scratch and I cannot remember now but it was at least 20 plus different measurements and dimensions I provided you just to machine a small rectangular part with the groove for the pellets to sit in amd they turned out a perfect fit.
It took me two hours to measure the breech opening and sketch out the drawing I needed just so I could give you the right numbers for each dimension of those trays. I had to make a drawing with the measurements I recorded just to be sure I did not miss something since it was a three dimensional part I had to see it from three sides to get the numbers right.
It takes a lot more time planning the steps needed to make a part most of the time than it does to actually make the part since one wrong step or cut and its start all over.
Its like you tell your coworkers if it was so easy then why cant you just make it.
Yep and look how many miles away we are from each other and I still got it made right.
Cause it was a collaboration of like minded individuals that new what each other needed to get it right. just proves you don’t have to be in the same place to get thing done correctly.
That tray is still in use today and I have had several people ask where they can buy one. I just smile and say you have to make it.
I have pictures of it saved on my phone still. I made one for that .177 Hatsan QE that I had. I should of kept the tray but I let it go with the gun. That was a mistake.
And good I’m glad it’s still doing alright. How long have you had that Hatsan with the single shot tray I made now?
I bought the Hatsan in march of 2014 and I believe you made the tray in May or June maybe April. I still have a picture and the measurements as well if you ever get another gun I can send them to you. I am a pack rat and never throw anything away, I cannot say just where they are but I know I have them still. yep never should have let it go and I am surprised Hatsan has not made their own by now.
Yes do not loose those dimensions. I may end up with another Hatsan at some point in time.
I will not loose them but if I cannot find them I can just remove and measure the one I have so we will still have the measurements as mine is not going anywhere.
Yep that will work.
Just said that. I looked. If you find some,….. let me know. Oh yea,…. and the tune to send em’ downrange with some,…. Authority….. 😉
You skipping the stock tune already!
First a question. Did you get some heavier pellets other than the JSB 25.39 grain pellets.
I’m tell’n you the .25 Mrods like heavy pellets. Even if you don’t have it turned up in power yet.
The 31.02 grain Barracudas is a good pellet for modded and factory guns. The 33.95 JSB’s might even be good in a stock gun. Never tryed them in a stock gun myself. I do know they work well in a modded gun.
From what I have seen the .25 Mrod likes heavier pellets.
Yes, I got the 3 you recommended. JSB in 33.95 and 25.39, not the III’s and the HN 31.02’s. 600, 700 and 800 respectively.
Is 600, 700 and 800 what the pellets chronyed. Or how many you got of each?
Qty. of each. The catalog says 900 in .25,…. so I hope I get better than 6,7 and 800. The 25.39’s,… with the manual’s tunes,… ought to put it that range, I would think.
Wrong thought. Don’t think. Shoot and see what happens.
Morning is looking good. Some “know it all” (below) thinks I need 2X4’s in front of my steel plate on my indoor trap. Will need to work that mod. up first.
😉 ,……. Chris (big wink by the way),….. and a big 🙂
And that know it all just left you another safety reply concerning that .25 Mrod.
I’ll say it again. They don’t consider a . 25 caliber air gun a big bore. But they make double power than your Tx or LGU makes.
And also when you shoot that .25 Mrod at your can at 50 or more yards. Do you think the pellet stops when it hits the can?
Oh and I said that at 5:10 pm about some .25 caliber heavy pellets shaped like the JSB 10.34’s.
You mentioned it at 6:20 pm. Guess you didn’t read all the comments yet before you posted. 😉
Good to see you back and commenting. Yes, Ol’ Gunfun1 is pretty good with the “good deals” and “perks”. 😉 Yea, that shape seems to do well. I would like to see some .25’s in that shape.
On the good stuff,…. yea,… get the best ya’ can get.
I’m still hung up on filling this chasm in my life but I’m gonna TRY not to let it consume me again!
Ever heard schizm by TOOL? That’s what I feel like right now!
Sorry, not up on the new stuff. From what I have heard,…. I do not care for. Melodic one moment and full out screaming the next,…. if even that…. I will stick to the “Classic’s”,… which up this way are now called “Iconic”,….. what’s next?,…. Ancient rock?,….. Dinosaur rock? 😉
Take care and hang on,….. it get’s better.
They’re actually more ambiance than anything else! You’ll never know if you don’t try!
One of my best points on my profiles was my wide range of music preferences
My personal favorite was everything from the Carpenters to Marylin Manson!
TRY that one on for size!
Ancient Rock! That’s funny! My spousal unit continually tells me that I should open my ears to modern music and to “pull my head out of the seventies.”
That’s Classic Rock and Roll and long live the seventies.
If they had any modern music that did not make my head ache I might try it but I have yet to find it so I to am and will be forever stuck in the seventies so you are not alone.
Never has and never will be anyone that can play the guitar like Jimi Hendrix did God rest his soul. We lost him way to soon.
Hendrix was an incredible guitarist. I love hearing the British blues artists of the sixties talk about Jimi when he showed up on that side of the pond.
Arguably the best musician to cover Jimi’s stuff was the late, great Stevie Ray Vaughan. Man, could he funnel the sound of Jimi like no one else. I remember seeing him 10th row center at the Will Rogers Auditorium in Fort Worth during 1986. Soul To Soul tour. Stevie tore through a version of Voodoo Chile (Slight Return) that darn near left me speechless. The way he would tune and bend that Fender to get those “Jimi” tones was amazing.
Long ago, I read a SRV interview where he wanted Double Trouble to cover a Jimi song on every album. Alas, we’ll never get to hear their version of “Red House”, a personal favorite of mine.
Yea he was and I was lucky enough to get to see him in Orlando Florida as a teenager and was just blown away and hooked forever.
Stevie ray did do him justice for sure but it still was not the same. I do miss the concerts I got to attend in the seventies in Florida as a teenager and young adult and have not been to one since the early 80s when the cops got big heads and thought nobody should be able to have fun.
Yea Jimi and Janis got taken away far to early from us and I always wondered what directions rock and roll would have gone if they still would have been around to have their influence on it.
Check this out:
Dan Wesson fan
Now that’s my kind of guitar playing and as I said at # 1 was good ole Jimi with the always famous Foxy lady. Very nice indeed as all I listen to is local radio and only classic rock and roll.
Never been a vinyl, 8 track, cassette or CD man since live radio is always free.
Glad to see you doing better my friend.
I do hope this series is going to end up in the History of Airguns section. I myself enjoy the history of air rifles and such as much as the air rifles themselves. I think that is why my BSA is my favorite. It is a piece of this history that I can play with anytime I desire.
It is in the history section now. It should have been put there Monday with Part 1, but that was the day after my surgery and I wasn’t doing much of anything.
Both sections are now indexed.
Wow I had no idea that Crosman premiers were so influential and flat out good performers. Then again the time frame puts me at learning cursive and watching cartoons…
Yes, Premiers are definitely that important! They set the bar for modern domed pellets. There are now other pellets that will shoot better in some airguns, but Premiers are still among the tops pellets available.
WELL with that being said I will make sure to add some to my stock of premium ammo.
I also had a less than stellar opinion of Crosman and Daisy. Everything that was available to my peers (gun shaped objects weren’t allowed at home) was plastic. Imagine my surprise a decade plus a few years later when I got the full story (thanks to this blog). I recently scored a Daisy 1894 from a garage sale to fix. I really just enjoy shouldering it. The plastic takes me back. (I know I’m too young to say stuff like that) 😉
I am not intending to offend you by correcting you on this but your statement of ” Then again the time frame puts me at learning cursive and watching cartoons… ”
The correct spelling for the writing you were learning is ” cursef ” not ” cursive ” but you should feel lucky since it has not been taught in schools for at least 10 years if not more. My question and total incomprehension as to why it is not taught anymore is if you do not learn to write in cursef then how will you ever learn to sign your name on a legal document. Is our govt and school system truly that ignorant to not realize that our young must one day be able to sign their own name in order to live in society and own anything that requires a signature to purchase.
I have a 22 year old grandson that cannot sign his name because he was never taught how to read and write cursef. Just totally a pure lack of one of the most basic elements of a good education in my opinion. Its not his fault since it is the system that has let him down very badly.
Back to the good ole X!
He did not even know how to do that so I don’t know what they teach in schools today but it is not anything that is by any means preparing our youth to go out in the world and make a life for themselves.
Its the dumbing down of America so they can be corralled like cattle and led to slaughter.
No offense taken! I am in the pursuit of knowledge, especially from my elders. That is why I read all the comments on all the blogs I can get my hands on. There is always a hidden shred of info. This blog is lucky to have the experienced and mature minds it has reading and commenting. I will never get political on a place like this but will always take in what is being said.
I try not to get political but some times its hard to see the country I grew up in seem to be failing so miserably. Its not for me that I am so concerned but for my children and more importantly my grandchildren as this is not the country I had envisioned leaving to them.
It can be saved but it will not be an easy task or happen overnight as it has took decades to get to this point now. It is the younger people such as yourself that still give me hope that together we can turn it around and make it the great country it once was for generations still to come.
Their are a lot of hard and uneasy decisions that NEED to be made by our elected officials for it to change for the better and if we can just unite to stand together WE can make it happen.
In an age where universal deceit is considered normal, telling the truth is seen as an act of rebellion.
I appreciate your kind words. I like what most people consider boring. My 2 main hobbies are airguns and reading. The type of reading I do forces me to see certain aspects of life that I hate. I see a downward spiral of general everythingness. I’m not trying to speak in riddles but people like you understand what I mean. I hold my tongue now so I can convey concrete thoughts when I’m ready. I speak with folks like you everyday as an HVAC tech. I’m forced to see many walks of life and my generalizations of people can cloud a person’s thinking. It is hard road to for us to walk, so the smart will bring shoes. 🙂
Haha your remark about truth makes me think about how I revel in the way I’m often “petting” the proverbial elephant in the room. People can get very uneasy with the truth…
I believe we would get along quite well as I was a auto/cycle technician for 45 years so am very familiar with auto HVAC systems and skilled labor to make a living.
I like your way of thinking as well and you are indeed correct in that it sometimes hard to hold your tongue at times but then its also necessary that we don’t at times as well. I see this country like the coin funnels you see at malls where you put a coin in the ramp at the top of the funnel and let it go and watch it spiral around and around until it inevitably ends up at the bottom falling into the abyss never to be seen again and we are almost at the bottom of the funnel.
Yes people do get uneasy with the truth but the truth will set you free as well and if they cannot handle the truth then they need to get off the train and put on that good pair of shoes.
I agree with what you have said about getting along. I have found a person good with their hands and that chooses their words wisely are the folks I like to be around. 🙂 It is hard for me to find common ground with my peers.
I feel your analogy about the coin ramp is scarily accurate. As a strong young able bodied man I am often perplexed at why some social problems get more attention than infrastructure problems. I once gave a war vet my last $20 (if he was lying about being a vet he was very convincing, he was also clean I know abusers of all kinds when I see them). I’m not looking for praise. I’m looking for answers… why aren’t our most important people cared for? Am I missing something? Was I lied to? I feel a rant brewing deep within so I’ll quit here. The most precious things in this world to me are knowledge and truth.
Its is a wise man that seeks knowledge and truth over all the other temptations we have around us everywhere. I cannot say if the man was truly a vet or not but it is more likely today that he was than not.
That is one of my very infuriating subjects since our military go willingly in to harms way for love of country and when they return broken and damaged are cast out like a bag of dirty linen. We can send billions of dollars to third world countries for aid and yet our vets are homeless and in need of medical care that takes 2 or more years to get seen at the VA by a doctor. Its a disgrace to call ourselves the greatest country on earth and have those who would give all for this country left in disrepair and destitute.
It is time we put this country first and back on its feet before we spend one more dime on the rest of the world.
Sadly our govt cares little about the truth or knowledge except where it benefits them and their pockets. It is no longer for the people, by the people and of the people. Its now time for me to stop as well or I will no longer be able to control my thoughts and words.
Stay strong and proud brother and together we will prevail.
I have to admit, I also thought it was cursive.
Punchin Holes and BB
I have to stand corrected as I thought it was spelled “cursef ” but in fact it is “cursive” so I learned something today as well since BB you had me question my spelling of it and I looked it up.
My apologies to all as I was incorrect and the correct spelling is Cursive.
Thanks for correcting that. I never checked.
Just goes to show sometimes we don’t what we think we know and we all make mistakes of which I have made a bunch LOL.
I heard from more that one person, including teachers, that many schools are no longer teaching cursive handwriting.
They have not taught it for over 20 years now and have no intention of starting to teach it again. Just as the Pledge of allegiance is no longer recited at the start of school every morning. Our schools are failing our children miserably in my opinion since they most certainly are not prepared to get out of high school and be able to assimilate into the work force in a smooth seamless fashion as we did 30 plus years ago.
My 22 year old grandson had no clue as to how to balance a checkbook much less how to go about even opening and account at a bank and cannot sign his name since he was never taught how to write or even read cursive. So that 20 years that its not been taught.
Truly a disgrace of an education system we have in this country today.
Glad you found that chair. The head rest should relieve pressure on lower back.
Love this history! I’m wondering why the Crosman Premier was better. Was it waist shape? Skirt density? Weight? I doubt it was head diameter.
It was the aerodynamic shape of the pellet.
It seems the chair with your head bent over and in the head rest it would maybe strain the neck. But I guess they have it balanced out good.
And that helps as you say. But how is your eye doing. Is there any pain or anything or does it feel scratchy?
And about pellets. As Chris said and you know me as the JSB .177 caliber 10.34’s is my favorite .177 caliber pellet. Almost every gun I shot them out of that pellet has a faster fps than other pellets of the same weight and flatter trajectory. So there has to be something to that design that’s making them work.
But something else you might include in this series about pellet design is anatomy. You mentioned the ashcan design and then came the premiers. Was the ashcans as hard as the premiers are now days. And matter of fact was the first premiers as hard as they are now days? And did the different pellet makers mess with different pellet hardnesses until they found what they liked if you might know.
And I know that alot of the feild target shooters use to swear by the premiers. But ain’t they kind of out dated as for as the anatomy goes. It seems that JSB uses a much softer pellet these days and they have some pretty accurate pellets from what I have seen and of course other design features that help the JSB’s.
Then start talking about pellet fit to the barrel and skirt design for sealing. There’s alot going on in the design of a pellet we don’t see. And think about weight distribution. Kind of like the bat mitton birdies. They are nose heavy as well as most pellets. Just think what would happen if the weight of the head got shifted back more towards the waist. You think we see pellets tipping or cork srewing now with different brand pellets. That pellet would probably flip end over end or tumble if it didn’t use the stability that’s designed in like the bat mitton birdies.
I think pellet design is another thing we just take for granted. But I will bet there is more thought that goes into pellet design that meets the eye.
Yes, the chair is adjusted perfectly to relieve all strain.
The eye is getting better. I can now see fingers at 5 feet, and it appears I have the full field of vision.
Each day it gets a little clearer, but it still looks like reading under water. The pain is subsiding, but it’s still there.
Ashcans were dead soft. Premiers have always been hard. The spec never changed.
Good glad the chair is working for you. And it sounds like your vision is progressing right.
Do you have to go to the eye doctor for a check up? I guess you have to get somebody to drive you if you have to go. Or did the doctor say you can’t even ride in a vehicle? Maybe not good to get bumped around.
And on the pellets. I always wondered how pellet anatomy was developed.
Yes, I have someone drive me to the doctor. I can ride, but not drive.
In the early days pellet were designed by guesswork. Now they are using science and CAD systems to design them.
I imagine they can make a more precise die nowdays with the cnc equipment that’s available.
You asked how the M-rod project is coming along,…. and since I have a “dumb” phone,…. here it is.
Got the bolt flipped per YouTube video. No problems and very easy. De-gassed first. Took my time and studied things as I went. Re-charged the gun tank. That second gauge that reads tank pressure is sweet. The gun and the main tank gauge were within 50 as best I could tell. Re-filled to 3000. After sitting, it fell back to around 2750 and has held. That has been several hours.
On the bolt, I thought it felt “dirty”. While I was that far in, I pulled the bolt that holds the BOLT in and cleaned and re-lubed it. The ball detent that holds the bolt in the closed position is actually a tube with a rounded end, and spring loaded. I pulled it, cleaned and re-lubed. Over all, the bolt is smoother. I guess it (used) to be a ball bearing set-up. Gen. 1?
Got the R.A.I. stock adjusted to my liking and locked down. Pretty much full left. The butt bottom is tilted out just a bit.
Next was the bi-pod and fore grip,..(which mimics the pistol grip). Turns out, the pod is mounted almost full back and the pistol grip to the front. Works good and feels good. The pod does not get in the way of the grip. The guns still tilts to the rear, but requires very little to bring it up.
After that, it was scope and ring(s) time. The BKL offset mount (1 offset, 1 straight) worked great! They slid right on with out spreading them. The M-rod’s dove tails are tall and well defined,…. just like I said that I wished that I would see more of, awhile back. The mount went well and came very close to the paper mock up/calculations that I did. The front bell is 7/32″ or .219″ 0ff the shroud. Pretty good I thought for paper mock ups and calculations.
Something on scopes,…. I got the UTG 4-16X56. I was looking at the next one up that had a much higher mag. level. By going to the UTG site and studying the scope specs.,… they were basically the same scope. (except) that the higher mag. scope had a longer front bell. I love the amount of tube area that a longer scopes has! Less room for error and makes eye relief a cinch. Cross hairs are (super) fine and are dot-dash-dot.
Oh yeah, shroud was off and baffles were out. Turns out that the shroud is the same on both ends,… you can mount it either way! Also got a mag. loaded with JSB 25.39’s.
And,… messed with the adjustments. Turns out I need quite a long 1/8″ allen wrench to access the “striker hammer spring pre-load” adjustment,… which I do not have, but will get. Oh yea, lost the jam set screw for the “valve metering screw” for about an hour,…… it was under the stove! One minute in my finger tips and the next,… POOF,…. gone.
You asked for an up-date,…. that is it. Busy day. Mow, trim, clear shooting lane, flush hot water tank and misc. other things that I have been putting off with all the research and trying to get everything together. Chillin’ now and trying muster up the energy to do something.
It all sound like you got it worked out well and ready to start shooting and enjoying.
Yea the hammer stroke adjustment allen wrench is longer than the usual ones you find in sets and you got to make sure you work over a padded surface or put a towel under the gun so those little set screws and pieces don’t run away from you. LOL
Just one thing you mentioned that is not correct is the shroud is not the same on both ends as the end that goes toward the breech has a little longer flat relief before the threads start since it has to pass over the rear support with o ring. That o ring is farther from the end of the support for the shroud than the one on the front thread in plug is so there is a front and a back unless they have changed the shroud. You may want to remove it and inspect the length of the relief where contact with the o rings occurs to see if one end is indeed slightly longer then the other and if it is the long relief goes toward the breech.
One question that I am not sure if you looked or noticed it or not when you swapped the bolt, but a friend just bought a refurbed Mrod in 177 caliber and he had it apart to make sure it was put together right and he said that his gun had a flat style o ring on the end of the valve stem that protrudes from the rear of the valve that would limit how far the hammer could move the stem when striking it firing the gun. Did you by chance happen to notice if yours had that on the stem or not, if not its no big deal and I don’t want you to take it back apart just to check but was just curious as it is not shown in the schematics on the crosman site.
I had mine apart this week hopping it some more.
I did not see that flat washer in mine.
I have no clue as to what his gun has in it and if it was done at the factory or by who ever had before it was sent back.
Or if it was done by who did the refurb since I am not sure the guns returned to distributors are sent back to crosman to be refurbed or done in their own shops.
I am going to ask him to take a pic the next time he has it apart if he even still has it since he was trying to trade it to another member for a Walther Rotek.
Yep we talked about that already. A picture would of told the story.
Picture is worth a thousand words.
Hey,…. I want some “hopping,…. more” too!
Ok,….. maybe too soon,….. but be ready! 😉
You know, that since I had it tore apart before I even I even shot it,…. that I am not afraid to “dive right in”.
Now your starting to get as bad as me. Read your last sentence.
“before I even I even shot it,….”
Yup,…. I can not deny that! Ok, the bolt flip was my “excuse” for tearing into it. But,… you know that it would be pretty quick before that puppy was coming “down.”
Oh yes I know.
So what did we do to it now to hop it up and is it for more power or higher shot count.
I still think once I make and test my SSG you will need to make your own to improve your 25 even more.
I have all the parts I need to make it and cost a grand total of less than five dollars for the parts and will be about an hours time to make and install.
The tuning most likely will take longer than anything else but the design I am using does not require any disassembly to adjust it for tuning.
I am going to test on my 177 first since the stroke screw does not stay adjusted now and is set at full stroke and I just use the hammer tension and air screw for tuning.
Tryed a heavier spring than I had in the .25 Mrod. But didn’t really pick it up anymore. I was trying 2# heavier spring at a time. 14# did not improve over a 12# spring. So tryed a 16# pound just to see what would happen. Again no improvement. So the 12# spring went back in this morning. Going to shoot it in a bit.
And yep want to see how that debounce thing works out on your gun. I’m pretty well maxed out with mine now with the stock valve. So may just go with a different valve also.
Ok so the valve is flowing all it can now and opening it more is not improving it at all. Did you notice if it used more air or about the same.
I know the SSG will improve your shot count some for sure. its as I stated to chris above it helps a poorly tuned gun more than a well tuned gun but it helps all PCPs to some extent. Its not really a debounce device but rather only allows for one strike of the valve stem by the hammer per shot by allowing the hammer to be free floating in the tube after the shot is taken. the hammer has no spring tension on it in the uncocked state but instead has .050″ or so clearance between the spring and hammer with the spring preloaded about 1/2″ so after its fired and the valve throws the hammer back into the spring it cannot regain any energy from the spring to strike the valve again since the spring is preloaded and will not compress at all to release more energy into the hammer.
I will let you know how it does in my 177 as far as increased shot count and tighter ES of the total shot count.
It did not use more air. It is maxed out now. If I go to a bigger valve then I’m sure I will need to add the debounce deal.
The SSG will help now and with a better flowing valve just will help more with the better flowing valve since it will be capable of flowing more air any extra strike on the valve from the hammer will waste more air.
I want to see how that new valve does also that your getting. If it works out for you I will get one also.
Did you think anymore about modify a stock valve. If I remember right you mentioned the gen1 Mrod valve could be opened up more than the gen2 valve. Or I might be thinking of something else.
Yea I am still looking at opening up the stock gen 1 valve as I looked a Lowes the other day and found those wood screw anchors that have the threaded holes in the center and they look to be just the right OD to open the valve ID up to and machine a circlip groove in the ID to hold one of those anchors in the valve with a screw with the head machined into a spring seat so I can adjust the poppet spring pressure to fine tune the valve and make basically the same as a WAR valve and flow gobs of air so its not out of the plans yet.
I hope to hear something on the Cothran valve this week and get it on its way to see just how it works. I have heard lots of great stuff about it on another forum like getting 80 plus fpe out of a stock gun and still 16 shots or more.
Time will tell.
Ok let me know when you hear something about the Cothran valve.
Yep will let you know when I hear from him and if I don’t get an email by Wednesday I am sending him another one.
Yep let me know what you hear.
You are in fact correct. Just pulled it, quite easy, and the breech end has about 1-2 mm. more “flat relief”. I installed it the same way it came off. I thought it was cool though that the threads were the same on each end. Smart.
On the last paragraph,…. I am not sure what you are talking about. The “air transfer port” did fall out while doing the bolt flip. 🙁 No sweat though,….. broke out the digital calipers and both ends were the same. (However) the O rings were flat on both sides of the port/tube.
I got a total tear down video saved in favorites,…. but it appears to be a Gen. 1? Two things right off the bat were 2 screws for the receiver, instead of 4 like mine. Plus, the bolt that holds the BOLT is accessible from the outside,….. mine is not,…. Gen. 1?
I need to get a full video for a (full) tear down on a Gen. 2,…… just have not looked yet.
I like it,…. sent you a pic.. Did shoot it. See reply to GF1 below.
Thanks for the past, current and future help,….. Chris
I am not talking about the transfer port as it will fall out and the o ring are a flat style new so all is good there.
My buddy was saying the stem of the valve that you can see if you looked down in the slot that the bolt that goes into the hammer rides in, which you had no reason to so was just asking. He is saying that his had a flat o ring on the end of the valve stem between the hammer and the valve that was in a groove in the stem so it would not come off during use but would prevent the hammer from fully contacting the valves body if it was turned up to full power. I have never seen that on any Mrod I have ever had apart and was just curious if it was a new revision to possibly the 177 only or if all calibers had it installed. Or if it was something that the previous owner did and it was not found during the refurb process.
My buddy says that all refurbed guns go back to crosman to be completely rebuilt before being returned to the distributors to be resold and I am not so sure about that myself.
Yes the Gen 1 has three screws securing the breech to the tube with two at the front like yours and one at the rear under the bolt so the bolt has to be removed on a Gen 1 to remove the breech and it does not on a Gen 2 since they have two screws at the rear as well.
Yep got the pic and looks good and ask and ye shall receive.
If you sent me a pic of it with scope and all by phone or email I have not got it yet.
I got the one the other day with just the stock so if you sent one today it did not make it so please retry.
Just re-took and re-sent. That front grip is so sweet. You would think that the pod would get in the way,.. but it does not. You can even stand and shoulder it with the pod down. Time will tell,.. but I think that set up will be staying “as is”.
Did you send it to my phone or email as I still don’t have it.
Phone. It said that it was sent. (Give it some time). On that,…. I got a reply from Omega that I had sent over a (month) ago. They just got it. I had to say,… sorry,… just cut a check for a Freedom 8,… 2 weeks earlier.
I texted BD the picture of your gun you sent me today just now.
Ok I will wait for it and let you know when I get it.
Been working on a new mod for PCP guns that is modifying the hammer spring so that it is fixed on a guide that preloads the spring about 1/4 to 1/2″ so that when installed the hammer free floats in the tube until cocked and when fired it can only strike the valve stem once instead of several times like all guns do now which wastes air. It is a new design of the hammer debounce idea but instead of o rings between the hammer and the valve ( Bstaley mod ) to limit the hammers travel and keep it from rebounding off the spring back into the valve stem.
This uses a guide that in the uncocked state keeps hammer spring from touching the hammer and therefore not applying any force to it against the valve stem. So until its cocked the hammer is just free to float in the tube and once cocked since the spring is already preloaded some on the guide it does not have to be loaded as much in the cocked state. Then when fired the hammer strikes the valve stem once and is pushed back against the spring, but since the spring is preloaded already there is no energy to be returned into the rebounding hammer so it just hits the spring and comes to a stop without being pushed back into the valve stem releasing more air on the same shot. It has been tested in many different variation of the same basic design and has shown significant increases in shot count as well as extreme consistency in FPS spreads of less than 5 fps per shot for the entire shot string.
I can email you the site to go to so you can read the 40 plus pages on its design and testing by numerous people that have made their own variation of the basic design of preventing the hammer spring from being in constant contact with the hammer at all times.
Just got the pic of the 25 and it looks very nice and I like the fore grip and notice that the trigger is quite a bit rearward in the trigger pocket just like mine is and that the only thing I find a bit odd feeling and takes a bit to get used to at least for me.
Sent you a nice reply, but it vaporized. I will look at what you sent.
After the initial stock tunes, I will be looking for something quick and easy that will get me 95% of the way. Then you can work on that final 5%. Limited time on this end.
It is nice that you stay on the cutting edge of developments and improvements. I would love to do that and play around with the latest mods.
Thanks again,… out today,…. so it will be later before I get back,… Chris
Yea you just need to play with yours first and get very familiar with it and tuning it to the different leverls you seek and then we can look at the further fine tuning.
I am still building and testing the SSG for my 177 ( it will work for any caliber ) to see just how big a benefit it gives for my FT shooting. The thing about it is if your gun is tuned very efficient already the gain you see will not be as significant as it will be in a gun that is wasting lots of air shooting.
It will improve any PCP just how much depends on the state of tune the gun is in when installed.
I will keep you updated to my own progress.
I’ll text you the picture.
Got it and thought it was Chris’s text so I should get two pics now.
I just checked out the picture you texted me of your Mrod. Nice I like it. Like the big sidewheel on the scope too.
Don’t forget to get some chrony readings so we can see what it’s shooting at. You said you already made adjustments though right? No chrony readings before adjusting?
Just shot it. 50 yds. on a can and blew it off on the first shot. Then tried the 70 and was hitting high and low. Need to get the target paper out and get some real data. As for tuning,. not much,… the side screw I adjusted out 4 1/2 from bottom as they said that will give full flow. I did the hammer tension just to see how it felt, but returned it to it’s original setting.
The cocking was not too bad when shouldered. A bit awkward, but it worked well. I will get some chrony readings next time before I take it out. That way I can look at Chairgun and get an idea for best sight in range. I will do 5 or so of each of the 3 I got.
Nice,…. I like it !!!!!! 🙂
Well at least you got a little taste of it today.
A little more power happen’n with the .25 Mrod verses the Tx or LGU. Or you didn’t shoot it enough to get a good taste of it yet?
8 shots. 1 clip. No, not enough yet. Crony and paper will tell. I need to get it dialed in and start blastin’ some cans and see what kind of holes it puts in ’em. Then,…. the chucks and squirrels
Outa’ here,…. Chris.
Ok tomorrow. You know I’m gonna be ask’n.
Busy today. Will not make it back till the afternoon. Weather is iffy. We shall see. If I can not get out, I will at least get some chrony readings indoors. It will be interesting to see what a pellet hit sounds like with the muzzle 5′ from my indoor trap. ( the wood box with a 1/8″ steel plate in the back ).
As for skipping the stock tune (above),.. I do not have the longer 1/8″ allan wrench that I need. Will get a kit today,.. probably T-handles. I did back out the port screw 4 1/2 turns. The manual says that will clear the port 100%. It was 3 1/2 out, from bottom.
Your having iffy weather there? We have had sunshine and upper 70’s the last 3 days. Suppose to be in the mid 80’s today and low 80’s tomorrow. Sunshine and calm today but some chance for rain tomorrow. So we’re BBQ’n today for mothers day and the oldest daughter graduated high school yesterday and on the honor roll and up in the top of her class I might add. So we’re kind of celebrating those two things today. But you know we will be shooting the guns though. Can’t have a family event without some shoot’n fun. 🙂
And you might want to be careful with that .25 caliber in your basement at 5′ even with the steel plate. I will have to say the Barracudas have a semi pointed round nose and are a little harder than the JSB’s. So just becareful when you shoot. You could have fragments of lead come back through the wood at you. They should mushroom out flat. But that’s also when the fragments break off. Becareful.
Yup,….. be careful. I’ll put a clean piece if paper on the plate and then inspect the impact on the first shot. Got the longer Allan wrenches today. T’s with the shorty out the side of the handle. Metric and SAE.
Rain here for the last 1 1/2 hours. Just sat down from an earlier M-day and shopping. Will see what tomorrow brings.
You might not have a chance to but that clean peice of paper up on you pellet catch.
A .25 caliber pellet that weighs 25 and up grains shooting at 700 up fps is not something to play with.
Projectile fragments will hurt or wound you just as bad or worse than a solid chunk of lead.
And me I would never chrony my .25 caliber Marauder at 5′ with anything thicker than a 2×4 of wood in front of a steel plate. I’ll text you some pictures of some pellets I picked up at 50 yards shot at my stell spinner that is not fixed and stationary.
Pellet ricorche fragments will hurt you.
Ok,… will take extra precautions. I have 2X4’s. Thanks.
The indoor set up works well. Very controlled lighting, which we all know is a big plus,…. and alignment over the eyes. The rifle is rested on a saw horse table, the chrony sits in front of that,…. and just beyond that is the stop.
Lighting and that other stuff means nothing anymore when you shoot a .25 caliber pellet gun.
I know .25 caliber is not considered a big bore. But it’s making easy twice the fpe of energy than your Tx or LGU is making.
Again I will say becareful.
T handles will be slow going since you cannot rotate completely around as they will hit the stock. I should have given you this link the other day.
I have the folder on, so everything is working good. See reply to B.B. below for a bit of an update.
Yep forgot about the folder so it gives you plenty of room to rotate the t handles so its a non issue.
Hi BB, so good to see your new posts, as if they never stopped, but please don’t over do it! Your health comes first. The chair you have there is very similar to the “ergonomic kneeling chair”, except with an added, face down, head support. Is it very comfortable? Please take care!
This chair is so comfortable that I bought it. I had rented it for just a week but decided this will be how I work a lot of the time from now on.
That chair does look incredibly comfortable. Hmmm. One of those might be in my future, perhaps two once my wife sees this photo.
“Makers seemed to think they had gone as far as they could go,” I guess by now most folks have learned that things will never, ever, go as far as they can go (not even in up-to-date Kansas City).
I guess that chair is comfortable. It looks like one of those massage chairs at the airport! It also makes me wonder because the latest ergonomics say that your workstation should be raised so that you are looking up rather than down. Your chair would seem to fly in the face of that, but I now believe that the placement has nothing to do with vision but with your back position. If the back is unsupported, then a low workstation could lead to hunching and strain. But with the back supported this way, there’s no problem. It’s entirely possible that the eye injury could lead to a benefit like a better ergonomic solution for the body. My whole shooting career resulted largely from an ACL injury which kept me inactive with time to fill. The only other point about ergonomic workstations that I know of is that your screen should be at right angles to the nearest window, and you’ve got that covered too.
I wonder what sort of molecular change could affect the macroscopic properties of a pellet.
I’ve been looking at airguns on the internet and came across surprising facts about two of my favorites. It seems that the TX200 and the HW30S are both copies. The TX200 of the HW77 and the HW30S of the Beeman R7. We can’t really give the Chinese are hard time for copying other designs if these iconic designs are doing the same thing. If there’s any product improvement it would seem to be from manufacturing quality rather than design changes.
B-I-L, I wasn’t going to say anything about size, but as long as you did, I will share a real world story from a gun magazine. A woman writes that she was learning to shoot when she went by herself to a shooting range. Before long a man strolls up and says something like, “Here, honey, try this,” and hands her a large handgun. It might have been a .357. No doubt, he expected her to fail. But she writes, “I put one into the 10 ring thank goodness, and the man walked away.” Ever notice that no single women ever show up at a gun range? (At least in my experience.) Most shooters that I’ve seen are individual men. There is no shortage of families and couples, but I have never seen any single women. Could it be the attitudes and behavior that they might face? I cannot imagine any stranger going up to a couple and offering to let the woman shoot his large handgun. The stuff people come up with is so bizarre. Another admittedly fictional case is from the book, Starman, (made into a film with Jeff Bridges) about an alien creature who constructs a human body to interact with humans and learn about them. The spaceman takes up with a very attractive widow and at a diner when she is separated from him, a hunter comes up to her and asks if she would like a “haunch of venison.”
Of course teaching women correct marksmanship is key but I wonder if this is rooted in a deeper problem of expectations of women. Just as they are not expected to go into science and engineering, no one expects them to be competent shots. I know that Edith was not fond of pictures and videos of women in skimpy attire with tactical guns and getting condescended to by their male companions. Maybe we will see Jill unload on Jack one night over a bottle of wine and tell him about a secret past of “microaggressions.” 🙂 “Oh Jack” she might begin, “This boyfriend once took me shooting in a junkyard….”
Glad the chair is working for you. I have a short comment concerning the Mac versus Windows PC discussion.
Back in the early 90’s the company I worked for went to computers, both for device testing and word processing and time recording. In their infinite wisdom, all supervisors got Mac’s where as us flunkies got Windows and in many cases had to use some version MSDOS to run our programs. The supervisors then had to get dos emulators to see what we workers were doing. I am happy the Mac is working well for you.
Since it’s Friday…
I’m looking at a vortek kit for my Diana M36. I’m not sure if the different seals available will matter a whole lot? I’m talking about a difference between the Pro Seal 28 or the O-ring 28 Piston Seal. I want the smoothest cycle. The rifle has enough inherent power to satisfy the niche it fills. I am not currently considering the detune kit at this time. Any input is greatly considered and appreciated guys. I’m ready for my first project. 🙂
I put a Vortek kit, in fact 2, into a TX 200 .22. I did the 12 fpe and then the HO kit. Both were good. I wanted to keep the power, not loose it. Of course the 12 kit was smoother and less thump and bump, which is good for a springer. The HO kit has a longer and bigger spring wire diameter if I remember correctly. The fps only went up 10-20. It did shoot smoother. What you are getting with a Vortek kit is inner and outer spring guides and some rubber washers that dampen the spring. Gunfun 1 did testing with his and found the stock piston seal to yield a higher fps, so I left mine in.
I looked up a Diana 36 in my Blue Book and if it is the same as the picture, is a fine looking gun. Not sure on tearing into one though. Do all of your homework and seek out exploded views and videos,…. FIRST. The TX is very easy to tear down. In fact, I could put a Vortek kit in now and have all back together and shooting in an half hour.
There is more to a tune than a kit. Look at and study every part. Clean, re-lube, polish, de-burr, etc.. Understand what everything does and how everything interacts with each other. The power listed in the Blue Book indicates that you will a spring compressor, but I could be wrong on that. Know your lubes and where to put them,… and more importantly,…. where NOT to put them.
That’s my 2 cents,….. Good luck, Chris
Hey thanks for the input. I have only just began the whole process. Starting a project to me means starting the research. I taught myself to reload ammunition but I took a long time before I ever had the money to buy my turret press and produce rounds. Like 2 years! I’m in no hurry. I’m on a budget but reading is “free”. (Internet isn’t quite free but with work I have to have my smart device) Thanks for mentioning the deburring process. I am hearing a smalll galling noise and the typical spring crunch.
I am very proud of my Diana and the story of me finding it by chance. But I am also green with envy of you TX owners! With the cost and quality I’m sure those rifles find the right hands every time. My “fantasy collection” includes one. I’m left handed so it will probably be awhile before I get one. I have shot right handed rifles all along and avoid semi-auto 22s! 🙂 But the TX will have to be special 🙂
The galling and spring “crunch” is not good!!!! Do NOT cock it any more. Hopefully you will not need more than a Vortek kit. You sound as if you are on the right track with your research. Once you are confident, I would tear into and see what is what and if anything else is needed, then buy parts.
Mine is a lefty. The LGU is an ambi and I can tell the difference. A true offset in the stock makes a big difference. That is one reason I went with the R.A.I. kit for the M-rod. Plus, my long length of pull. About 16 1/2″ vs the std. 13 1/2″. You really feel the difference when something just plain fits and feels good. Everything just seems to fall into place.
Good luck with your project,….. Chris
Most people don’t even notice that in the Tx stock. Remember when I pointed that out to you.
A comfortable gun is a good shooting gun.
Yup,… I do remember,…….. Just passin’ it on. 😉
Thanks for the pointers. I haven’t been shooting it since I have noticed the noises and it’s been killing me to not shoot it. 🙂 I have been making do with my Diana 45. It’s buzzy but I still enjoy it tremendously.
Hopefully I can handle all my favorites at a show sometime so I can see how they “fit”. I’m really eyeballing a new HW30s for mobile plinking and to challenge a few dandelions 🙂
Your LGU is one of you top shooters I imagine? I mean at least from your springers?
Yep,… the LGU is a good one. It will vary from session to session as to which one comes out on top for the day. By the way,… the LGU is one that I will not touch. It is so tight,… that there is actually a suction sound when you cock it. If not mistaken,…. it has a similar set up to the Vortek kit already built in.
So why did I get “into” the TX?,….. Well, I was a newbie. More power is better, right? Turns out that through all that, I learned how to re-build it and that it is already a fine shooter out of the box. Did I make it better,…. yes.
Something else I learned is that if you want more power out of an airgun,… and you do not want a super hold sensitive, cheek slapper,… you need to go PCP. That,… in and of itself is a big,… heck,…. a HUGE step. Just got there,.. and I am newbie,… all over again.
Again,… good luck on your tear down and re-build/tune. Chris
Remember to hen I told you that you will notice differences between the Tx and LGU.
And yes I did mention the suction sound the LGU makes when closing the breech.
Those two guns have made me open my eyes as to what to look for in a quality spring gun.
Look at you! You have advanced so far!
Thank you. Up to ears in chrony testing the M-rod and playing with all 3 adjustments while making records as I go. About 30 shots thus far. About to the point of playing with a higher fill and then I will do a curve string to see where the “sweet spot/range” is.
Then, out to sight in at ?,…. I will try Chairgun and enter the applicable data and see what a good sight in range would be based on keeping things in a 1″ kill zone for the longest distance span.
The R.A.I. kit is sooooo sweet! The folder does have a bit of slop when installed, but really not enough to be of concern. The folder is GREAT for making adjustments every few shots. It is worth every penny just for that convenience alone.
Thanks to you, this blog and everyone here that have helped.
Was wondering how it was going and if you done anything today.
So is it thump’n your pellet stop hard?
Does not like I will get good shot count,… maybe 16. From factory, 25.39’s were doing 844@3000 and 5 shots later 858@2700.
Adjusted Hammer tension in 5 from factory.
Adjusted Hammer stroke out 1 and did have it in 1 from factory.
Meter screw is at 4 from bottom. Factory was 3 1/2 from bottom.
Now,…. At a 3200 fill, 10 shots are from 870~900, 888 avg., 29.5 spread.
16 shots took the fps from 900 and shot 16 was 820.
Fill over 16 shots was 3200 down to 2000.
It kind of looks like I am not doing something right? Lots of data and thought I was going the right way each time,… maybe not.
Shoebox on tank at moment, so a bit of down time. What do you think?
On your first setting you had the gun set at 2700 psi looks like that would of been your start fill pressure.
But try this at how the gun is set now. Fill to 3200 psi then shoot 30 shots. Every fifth shot record your guns fill pressure. Do that with each different brand pellet you have. 3 different types I believe you said.
When you do what I just said post your results so I can see them.
Shot 16 @ 820, down from 900 start. That is an 80 spread. I may be new to all this, but 80 ain’t good.
Fill ended at 2000, doing just 16 shots, from a 3200 fill. I do not even see what the gun gauge would read at 30 shots, if 16 was 2000.
Re-read and see if maybe you missed something. Heading out now to sight-in at 44 yds. per Chairgun. I will have more info. later.
I think the 25 grain pellet is to light. A heavier pellet should give you a better shot count and keep the velocity more consistent.
A heavier pellet used in the different caliber pcp guns that I have and had throughout time always have gave me better results.
And opening up the transfer port set screw adjustment will raise velocity but also lowers shot count. So you just might need to go back in on that adjustment.
I will second the Vortek kits as being very good kits and will make your 36 into a new gun. To help your research and get a better understanding of the internals of your gun here is a schematic on it and a site that has schematics for most all airguns made. To use the site you will have to click on the tab in the upper left corner that says transductor to get it in English for you to read it. The first link is the schematic of the 36 and the second is the site for all schematics of airguns.
You have read my mind! That is exactly what I was about to look for! Then I’ll go to youtube for tips on r&r etc. and then spring compressor(review plans and build), then buy the kit, then get busy! 🙂 Thats a very quick overview. It’ll probably take a little time. My brother and I have a lawnmower we’re bringing back to life out of necessity.
As an aside I have tumbled down the rabbit hole further… I have stumbled across the venerable qb79… I have also found the related blog on pyramyd for the TF79. I’m pretty interested as I haven’t a CO2 rifle and this one looks like it’s right up my alley! Especially since it’s a “speed” repeater. (I have a crosman Pumper with the nice little 5shot clip) I don’t have one those yet either 🙂 I have got it bad my friend, my list keeps growing! I need to fix my recently acquired Daisy 1894 first though.
I knew you would be looking for a schematic and had this site saved in favorites so thought I could save you some headaches and get you on your way to getting all the research started to complete your rebuild.
I built me a cheap and very useful spring compressor out of a 4 foot 2×8 and a 8 or 10″ C clamp and various blocks of wood to use as anchors and guides to hold many different actions securely in place while compressing spring all the way up to magnum Diana 48s and 54s. Just take the C clamp and cut the fixed end off at the straight back length of the clamp so you end up with a J shaped clamp with the threaded ram end. Then mark and draw a line centered down the length of the 2×8 to use to install the clamps ram centered along the line and drill two holes in the straight back side of the C clamp to anchor it to the board. You will need to space it up off the board to what ever height is required to line up with your 36s action, then just make a block that will fit inside the fork of the action after the barrel is removed with a hole in it to install a rod the barrel pivot hole in the action to secure the front of the action. Then take two 1x2s 6 inches long and screw to the board along the sides of the action to keep it centered on the line drawn down the board and use some form of strap that you can bend to fit the action tubes contour and screwed to the 1x2s to hold it down tight on the board. Then just make a wood block that fits the shape of the actions end plug so the C clamps ram will push straight and even on the end cap and you are ready to disassemble the gun. It should be able to be made for under 20 bucks if you have to buy all the wood and clamp or less if you have scrap wood and a C clamp you can cut up already on hand.
Hope this get you on your way to making it a new shooting gun for you to enjoy once again.
Noticing a tin of Premiers on the shelf in Gander Mountain was one of the things that got me back into airgunning again after 20 years. Pellets and scopes are what I’ve noticed the biggest improvements in. Another great read, BB. Thank you.
I’m happy to see that your are improving; that’s pretty cool about the chair.
As to posting comments, I have no problems logging in and posting.
Back when I shot Field Target (vary casually) with a .177 HW97, Crosman Premiers were all I shot in it. For practice, I would shoot 12 gauge shot shells (used hulls) at 50 yards. When I did my part, the gun connected every time. You don’t get that kind of accuracy with economy pellets. Frankly, I think buying “the cheapest pellets” at some big box store is false economy…although I do have ONE highly tuned Crosman 1322 with a 12″ barrel that shoots super-accurately with Walmart pellets…but I always use the same ones, the “Premier” hollow point hunting pellets. Ever since I started with airguns in the 80s, I always try a bunch of pellets, see what shoots best for each gun, and stock up on those.
Thankfully, with airguns, anyone who skips their favorite latte every now and then can afford to do like wise. =)
Keep up the good work!
take care & God bless,
Buldawg76! SEMPER FI!!!
I hope and prey every day we will get our country back and tell everyone who will listen that WE can do it if we Stand together.
United we stand and divided we fall which is exactly what our govt is trying to do and so far is succeeding at dividing us very well.
That chair does not look comfortable to me, but then I’ve never tried anything like that. I’m glad that it is helping you.
I enjoyed the comments about the various pellets. While I was working in New Mexico, I bought 10,000 Daisy wadcutter pellets, thinking they would be good for my grandson and me plinking. As it turned out, we seldom do plinking, but visit the gun range. We shoot both powder burners and air rifles there. I still have 9,000 Daisy pellets left.
The grandkids getting into a competitive airgun shooting league caused me to search for better pellets. And better pellets for them led to better ones for me. I supplied them with RWS R10 wadcutters and bought some RWS Superpoints for my own use. I tried a variety of upscale pellets.
The Crosman Premiers were a good balance of price and quality. I have one air rifle in .22, and like to shoot the .22 Premiers in it.
The absolute worst pellets I have ever seen were offered for sale at a gun show in New Mexico. The were Chinese copies of the “ashcan” pellets. They were wadcutters, and seemingly, no two were alike. They were coated with a greenish-gray oxidation, some heads angled and some skirts were oval. The seller wanted $4 for 500, but I don’t think he sold any.
I bought some reasonably good pellets under the Cabelas name, but seriously doubt if they actually produced them.
There is a visible difference in appearance between cheap pellets and high quality ones. The good ones are smooth, clean, and uniform in shape and finish. This is one product where you pay more for quality, but the results are worth it.
I will pay good money for good pellets. Period.
And you know that was a simple short comment for me. I always tend to make my comments to long.
Boring morning . You up for a “mini” on the FWB so far ?
Well of course. I just got through mess’n with the striker springs in my.25 Mrod. So getting ready to see what I accomplished.
So what’s been up with the FWB?
Rifle is thick and chunky , hefty at about the weight of a 48 but does not feel as heavy . Good balance .
Trigger from factory 3.5 to 4 oz . Overtravel feels frozen, so will leave it alone .
Loading is difficult . Takes a while to figure out how to load . Cold or fat fingers will be a real problem .
Barrel has tight bore . Chamfered but no inleade . Rifling seems a bit more shallow than a LW .
12 groove, and choked .
Gun is a slow leaker . Have to keep the tube unscrewed if I want it to have enough air in a few days .
Reg comes off line at about 125 BAR . Makes a “blaat” sound, and accuracy gets wasted .
The green zone on the gage starts at about 75 BAR . Forget about using it that low .
About 1/4″ at 25 . JSB 8.4 look about best so far . Most shots group very tight in the center, but there are usually three around the outside that open up the groups to 1/4 .
Pellet size problem ? maybe . Tried weight sorted , but has no effect .
Have other pellets to test, and will also try oiled .
So far tested…
JSB 8.4 and heavies .
AA 8.4 4.51 and 4.52 .
FTT 4.50 and 4.51 .
Seems to like smaller pellets with tight bore .
Well sounds like you been busy with it.
And I would be very happy with a 1/4″ at 25 yards. But I know what you mean about wanting to try other pellets just to see.
I bet you can feel the pellet load with that barrel though. And just curious have you thought about trying the JSB or Air Arms 10.34’s? Really have had good luck with the JSB’s. Everybody says that the Air Arms 10.34’s are nice too.
It sounds like it’s a really nice gun though. I would be happy to have one.
Tried the JSB heavies . Load tight . Don’t have any AA heavies .
Trouble loading tight pellets may be part of the problem with the fliers if you want to call them that . Hard to start and push a pellet straight in . This has to be suspect .
The JSB heavies were the only ones that showed any sign of bore conditioning .
I am going to make a sizer . Will use a #2 taper pin reamer to make the fit . May head size only, or size the skirt too . have aluminum bar stock . The reamer will cost around $35 .
Sounds like that bore is tight. Usually the JSB heavies tend to be a little loose fitting on the guns I used them in anyway.
Do you think resizing the pellets will make that much difference?
Might make a significant difference , at least to get them to the same size and with an easier fit .
Tried some FMR 4.49 and still got plenty of rifling bite .
Wow that is tight barrel ain’t it.
If you do make a pellet sizer and try it out iI’m very interested in how the shooting results end up.
What I would like to know is what happens velocity wise as well as with the accuracy.
I don’t expect a velocity difference of much if any with head size only . The skirt will offer the most starting resistance .
Still need to roll a BB down the bore to see just how bad the choke is . Have one that the BB got stuck in a half inch before the muzzle . That is absurd .
Think I will get a reamer to do .22 also while I am bugging McMaster-Carr . Trying .177 first .
Choked down that much huh. What gun was that do you remember?
That was the 200T . The bore on that thing was horrid too . Imagine turning a chain saw file inside out and using it for a barrel . Powdered lead all over the chrono .
Did you try to do anything with that barrel on the 200T? Maybe the bore paste?
Hopeless . Cut off some choke to open it up some . Bore just too rough . Used a LW barrel blank to fix it .
Roughest bore I have ever seen .
So you actually had to replace the barrel then to get the gun to work. I wonder if you got a bad barrel or more guns out there with that problem.
Probably more with the same problem. The boring bit must have been snaggle toothed . Probably a batch of bad ones .
I don’t want to have to fit a blank up again . That’s hairy work .
Does about a quarter inch at 20 or 25 with RS . Never tried anything else . It will go over 12 fpe or 14 with 8.4 Exacts over the chrono if I crank it up . Accuracy not tested with them . Velocity set about par with the R7s with the RS . Kills starlings with a good shot count and not much noise .
That sounds good. As long as your happy with it.
Light and small . Good plinker with a lot of shots . It is fun . A bit too light maybe . An R7 is a bit light too if you get right down to it .
You know this may sound crazy but I miss my HW50s I had. That was a nice handling gun. Good power and easy to carry and use. As it goes when you get rid of some things you don’t know what you had till its gone.
See bottom for an update. Chris
Saw the above. Getting too thick up there so I thought I would bring it to the bottom.
Yup, (heavier) pellets is next,.. with the current settings.
As for the heavier pellets,… at (stock) settings,….. HN 31.02, 786~793 at 2700~2300, 5 shots, in that order.
JSB 33.95, 738~744 at 3000~2700, in that order.
Groups?,…… 1 3/8″, 1 1/4″ and 15/16″ at 44 yds.. The 15/16 is 6 of 8 with 2 fliers discounted. In that order. Good aim,… they just flew off. That was with the 25.39 JSB’s.
That is about it for an update. Bottom line,…. will try the heavier pellets next. Topping gun tank at 16 shots now. Would like to improve that.
Oh yea,…. tank filled from 2900 to 4500 in 46 minutes with a constant run on the Shoebox. It, and the California Air Tools compressor is so,……. Sweeeeet!
Thanks for the advice and insight,…… Chris
Sounds like the Shoebox is doing right.
What is the striker spring adjustment at now?
What is the hammer stroke adjustment at now?
What is the transfer port adjustment at now?
If you max out the striker spring adjustment and adjust the hammer stroke for maximum stroke. Then the transfer port adjusting screw out to when you put the second lock down screw in; the threads it should be flush to about a 1/2 turn out when locked down. Don’t force that second set screw. Just touch it to the other and be done. With the stock striker spring in the gun you should get 22 shots from 3200 down to 2200 psi with the Barracudas.
And when I say 22 shots I mean before POI starts dropping off. I don’t care what the fps spread is. I want my POI not to change.
Oh and I gave up on the 25 grn JSB’s in all the .25 Mrods I had. They just did not work out.
Fill your gun to 3200 and shoot the Barracudas and you will see what I mean.
Cool, I look forward to trying all that.
As for the questions: Striker spring out 1 turn from factory. Hammer tension in 5 turns from factory. (the manual says that past 6 in will not do anything more). The port screw is 4 out from bottom. Factory was 3 1/2 out from bottom. The screw looks to be flush to the end of the threads.
The ol’ noggin’ is a foggin’,….. long day with all the new stuff and learning. Time to “chill”.
Thanks for the help and advice,….. Chris
Do what I just said to do with the adjustments and fill pressure and ending pressure. Shoot and watch for POI dropping low as the psi drops. Oh and loose the magazine’s if your using them and put the single shot tray in.
Oh and use the Barracudas like I said and loose the 25 grain JSB’s.
And I’m not trying to put you down but them are ridiculously bad groups for a .25 Mrod at 44 yards. I seriously get pellet touching groups at 50 yards with my Mrod with the 31.02 grn Barracudas and 33.95 JSB’s and 5 out of 10 shots will go in the same whole with the bipod mounted from the scope.
Try the tune I said and don’t worry about what the manual says.
Yup,… expected better. Terms vary, depending on what you read,…. you pro,… me PCP newbie.
So,…. to be CLEAR,…… Max. hammer pressure, (1/4″ Allan), turned in. Increase striker stroke, (1/8″ Allan), turned out…….. Right?????
Ok on the rest of it. I did try the tray. I like the mags.. But,… if it makes that big of a difference, then tray it shall be.
Turn the 1/4″ Allen wrench clockwise 7 turns. You will feel the spring click when you maxed it out.
Then turn the 1/8″ Allen wrench counterclockwise until it bottoms out. Basically till it won’t turn no more.
If you do that those two adjustments will be maxed out for most velocity.
And yes use the single shot tray. Also before you put it in pull the bolt back like your cocking the gun. Then put about 4-5 drops of the RWS silicone oil on the breech o-ring that seals the bolt probe.
And I said this in the past but you probably missed it. Shoot the gun and watch your POI verses psi as you shoot. The main thing is watch for POI to start going lower on the target.
Then fill the gun back up to the same psi and chrony it. Chrony down to the end fill psi you recorded when the POI started shooting lower. Those numbers are now a reference for your tune.
The main thing to look for is what psi you can use and still get consistent shots before they start shooting low.
Re-read this several times so you understand the part about POI.
Sorry if I am a little slow on the “up-take”. I did a lot today and was half sure about what I was doing. I read everything I had, the manual and 4 pages BD76 hooked me up with,… and took notes. Then applied them.
I got the POI point. In fact, I have notes back from the (first) time you mentioned it. I will do and try next time out,…. and the heavier pellets, and the shot tray, and the full (1/4″) in and the full (1/8″) out, and,….. well heck,…. I probably forgot something. Safe to say,… that will keep me busy for a few.
Out’a here,….. Chris
And,… did you ever tear into an M-rod mag. to try and figure out what does not work?
Indexing I suppose, but I do not know. I plan to find out. If they went together,… they come apart!
That’s the “modder’s” slogan! 😉
Yes I have.
There is always spring pressure pushing on the pellet so it will index when the bolt is pulled back.
So there is always some kind of pressure on the pellet pushing on the side of the pellet. Then as you push the bolt forward to load the pellet. The pellet can try to cock sideways as its loaded in the barrel when its leaving the magazine. Not good in my opinion.
Thanks for the input on the mag. issue. I will tear one apart and see.
I guess if there is one thing for the manufacturer to look into,… it would be that. You and BD76 both have mentioned it.
Just remember POI is the determining factor.
Shot count is hard to come by in a pcp unless it has a regulator.
If you get 24 good shots per fill that will be good for your .25 Mrod.
Once you start shooting it more you will I’ll see it’s a balance between shots per fill and what velocity you want.
It will come together. You just got to spend some time with it and listen to what it tells you when you shoot.
Just keep me informed of what you see with your gun as you shoot it.
Buldawa76-Tin-for-U! Semper fi!
RE: Low ballistic coefficient pellets
I’ve found this necessary thought most useful. Although all of this blog’s readers are not from The United States, in the United States there are problems that are inherent to a person having too powerful of a gun. For one, our land parcels are relatively gigantic and when need comes about for house hold pesting it is often nearly impossible to do less damage than the pests. Continuing this thought, our urban areas are often surrounded by large woodlots and farmlands. As a result, I relocated a few years ago and found my problem with skunks in my garbage pails and mice in the garage had improved to raccoons, rats and possums.
As a result, and contrary to some very immature law enforcement opinions (Ex: The State gives them a “RIGHT” to go shopping for a slave to pay for THEIR due process expenses is nothing more than the same slave states occupations which proceeded US Constitutional Law.) where I used to prefer wad cutter pellets, I have grown quite fond of hollow points. They simply don’t carry much energy beyond my intimidate line of sight.
Of course, most of us take those implied necessary lessons in becoming an adult for granted. It’s a good thing that every time an eight year old kid breaks a window with a wrist rocket we don’t all have heavily armed troops with law enforcement union attorneys representing the wrong party’s case. After all, if it weren’t for a bullets ability to fly in a vacuum without ever tumbling, someone’s kid could have been gifted by the almighty with an ability to bend over and pick up a stone.
With all seriousness and practicality guys and before some bunch of police officers get the drop on you while you are walking home from your neighbors corn field…you did think about all of that before you left the house, didn’t you? Because, SOMEHOW or anther, that question just kept on jumping out in front of my Crosman 761, lingered in the bushes behind my RWS model 36 and I doubt it will drop dead for fear of the moderator on my Hatsan 125.
Welcome to the blog.