by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Daisy 853.
This report covers:
- Before the 853
- Daisy and the NRA
- The 853
- Specs
- Lothar Walther barrel
- Peep sight
- Front sight
- Single-stroke pneumatic
- Trigger
- Overall evaluation
Wait a minute, B.B.! This is supposed to be an historical article. How can you write about the Daisy 853? It’s still being made and sold today. Yes, it is, but this is still an historical report. Why? Because the Daisy 853 is more than just one 10-meter youth target rifle. It’s the rifle that started it all for American youth shooters!
Before the 853
Before the Daisy 853 the youth shooting programs in the U.S. were fractionalized. They did exist, but mainly they shot .22 rimfire target rifles at 50 feet. The arrival of the 853 unified the American youth shooting programs under the auspices of the National Rifle Association. The 853 was (and still is) an affordable target rifle that was/is sized for youth shooters.
Daisy and the NRA
What Daisy and the NRA did together was form a cohesive national youth shooting program that clubs could affiliate with. Competition was arranged in local, regional and national levels. At the SHOT Show in 2009 I was briefed by the NRA at their Airgun Breakfast that there were over 74,000 individual clubs with over one million youth shooters participating that year. Certainly the number has grown since then!
Daisy was instrumental by making a youth rifle (the 853) that suited this competition. The NRA calls this youth rifle class the Sporter class. They differentiate that class from what they call the Precision class, in which the rifle’s price and limitations are relaxed. The rest of the word just knows this class as the traditional 10-meter target rifle.
Together, the NRA and Daisy make a great team that had a profound impact on young boys and girls learning to shoot. The pyramyd they compete in goes all the way to the Olympics today, and many young champions have enjoyed scholarships from colleges as a result of their national standings.
The 853
The Daisy 853 is a single stroke pneumatic 10-meter target rifle that comes from the box ready to compete. Ahh — but there is the rub. You get a fine rifle right from the box, but there are modifications that can make it even better. I plan to do some of those modifications in this series, after we get the rifle baselined.
One of my readers asked me several months ago if I ever reviewed the 853 for you and I was surprised to find I hadn’t.
The rifle has been around since 1984 and I have tested several versions of it over the years, but for some reason I never wrote about it for this blog! That ends now. I bought a used 853 on a Gun Broker auction and will now do a standard 3-part test for you. After that I will probably tune the trigger and perhaps do some other things, if we see the need. When I finish, you will know a lot more about the 853 than you do today.
Specs
The rifle’s specs say it weighs 5.5 lbs. I checked that on a balance beam scale and found it spot on. The trigger pull is given as 6 lbs., but my rifle is well-used and I think it’s lower. I’ll measure it in Part 2. Pump effort is supposed to be 25 lbs., but on my used rifle I believe it’s lower. Part 2 will tell. The overall length is 38.5 inches, which makes the 853 a compact air rifle.
Lothar Walther barrel
The 853 and its larger cousin with an adult-sized stock, the 753 (identical action), come with precision barrels from Lothar Walther. That shocked the market in the ’80s and ’90s, but has become the requirement for accuracy in the 21st century. There are a lot of plastic, cast aluminum and painted parts on the rifle, and it seems strange that it also has a pedigreed barrel, but it does.
Peep sight
The rifle comes standard with the plastic 5899 peep sight. You can easily upgrade to Daisy’s Match Grade Avanti Precision Diopter Sight, but don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Before you buy the better sight, try the standard one. Many club guns have them, including the one I bought. You will get a report on how well this mostly plastic sight works.
The 853 comes standard with the 5899 peep sight, which my 853 has.
Front sight
The front sight is a globe with replaceable inserts. These days almost everyone uses an aperture insert in which they can center the bullseye, and that’s the one that’s installed in my rifle. But I received a complete set of the inserts. Perhaps, when my eye is back to normal, I will experiment with both the aperture and a post front sight insert, to see if there is any difference in accuracy.
The front sight globe takes inserts.
Single-stroke pneumatic
The powerplant is a single-stroke pneumatic. One pump of the aluminum lever is all it takes to power the gun, and it is not possible to put in more than one pump. This pump takes some effort. It’s not bad for an adult, but younger children can find it daunting. Daisy recommends the 853 for children 16 years and up, but that goes out the window in real life. A club may set a bottom age limit of 12 years, then cave when a parent shows up with an 11-year-old boy who is already man-sized.Once they accept him, though, his “big” sister who is 13 and half his size also wants to shoot. People don’t come in standard sizes!
I have seen younger kids squirming around on their bellies (prone position) like salted slugs as they pumped their rifles for the next shot. Believe me, the bottom age for kids in these leagues is way less than 16! Because of that, the NRA welcomed the Crosman Challenger CO2 rifle when it was first launched because everyone could cock it. There was just one problem. It wasn’t universally accurate.
Crosman chose to make their own barrels for that rifle and they varied in accuracy from one rifle to the next. When they finally relented and went to Lothar Walther barrels (at nearly double the retail price for the gun) the Challenger PCP was born, and it is extremely competitive. But that’s a different story.
The 853 takes one pump of air for each shot.
Trigger
If the 853 has a weakness it is the trigger. Instead of a crisp 2-stage pull the rifle comes with what I must describe as a textbook example of a single-stage trigger with creep. And it is not adjustable. It can be tuned up, and of course I’m going to do that for you in this series, so you’ll get to see what that involves. But out of the box, the trigger is disappointing. I’ll measure the pull for you in Part 2.
Overall evaluation
I began this report by saying the Daisy 853 is more than just a target rifle. It’s the beginning of serious junior airgun competition in the United States. Others may argue that point but I believe I have stated my case. Love it or not, you cannot deny the 853 is a pivotal air rifle.
Hurray! I’ve read everything I could find on my 953 and had a set of magazines in my cart for about three years now! Buldawg and I already have the trigger mod done as well as other mods, this is gonna get really good after you get the trigger where you like it!
Reb
You do realize the 953 does not have the lothar walther barrel in it and is why its only 99 bucks instead of 300 plus. Still good fun little guns and is one of the gun my grandkids learned to shoot with.
I was lucky enough to be given a 753 in a tiger wood target stock that had been left in a shed till the stock had began to mildew. Some elbow grease and TLC and it is now I fine accurate shooting gun at 520 fps with a 5 fps spread between shots.
We did do the trigger mods which make all the difference in the world and I also did a mod to my pump chamber to decrease the volume of in order to raise the pressure achieved for the single pump stroke and is simple to do and totally reversible.
BD
BD
Did you find it useful to modify the trigger on your 753? They are advertised as being adjustable for trigger pull force needed to release sear.
Decksniper
Decksniper
Yes the trigger mod is well worth the effort as it makes it much more predictable and light of a pull with a crisp release.
Go to this link and if it does not come up to the 853 trigger modification page then on the left hand side click on daisy and 853 trigger mods and it will walk you thru the mods to tune the trigger as I am sure BB will get into it some here as well in the next few reports.
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/default.htm
BD
BD,
I do plan to mod the trigger on the test gun and I plan to use Pilkington’s instructions as my guide.
B.B.
BB
I know you said you where so if you don’t have the link to the instruction you do now.
BD
I bought a lightly used Daisy 853C Avanti a little over two years ago. I have been shooting it at our gun club every week since. I have modified the trigger several times and have it down to a 1 pound 8 ounce trigger pull.
I guess the important thing is that we shoot the N.R.A. 10 meter range indoors and this rifle is a virtual tack driver. It isn’t unusual for me to get several one hundred targets in one evening, and that is one hundred 8x to 12x. These rifles are amazing. Most of the guys I shoot with are using the Daisy 853 or 853C, or even a couple 853CM’s that we modified to the auto advance function like the 853C. They are experiencing the same tack driving accuracy as I have. These rifles are truly amazing.
Jimt2099,
Welcome to the blog.
You commented on an older post, but by coincidence, today’s post is part 4 of the same gun.
Look here:
/blog/2016/06/the-daisy-853-part-4/
B.B.
Decksniper
The link just takes you to the ten p files so once opened click on the daisy link at left then 753,853,953 rifles and then you have the trigger mods for adjustability and other mods to improve the guns.
BD
YEP, I know mine has a Daisy barrel but I don’t think a LW barrel could get the groups any tighter because it’s my most accurate gun already ALL the way out to about 30yds. And I picked it up out of a rut in an alley after being run over by the trash truck!
Reb
That must have been a real light trash truck because the pot metal receiver of the daisy’s will break if you don’t take the barrel weight/sight off while working on the guns action out of the stock.
Glad you got a good one for free like I did mine and was able to bring it back to life. Mine had green mold growing on the stock it had been out in the weather so long. Luckily the part are painted not blued or it would been a rust bucket as well.
BD
Well there are actually Daisy 953s that came with the Lothar-Walther barrel…
They are called the U.S. shooting Team 953 and the 777 pistol was also a part of that promotion…
in the end it does not matter because the Daisy made Barrel is just as good imo…
They do have different favorite pellets though. Both do well out to about 25 yards with 30 being a challenge and at 50 yards watch out for mouse farts cause one will ruin your hard earned 1″ group…
if you look at the ad they rated at 480 fps… I think the Daisy wads back then were about 7 grains…
So it looks like the 953 preceded and then became the 853,,,
My 85 953 only shot ~425 fps with 7.9g after a rebuild which included a pump tube… mine is also modded; to 490 fps now with a reversible mod… had it to 525 fps with 7.9g CPHP but es was to wide so I reduced how much space I took up… The chamber in mine is circular .5″ by .5″ so I just sleeved it with a drilled out .5″ nylon spacer…
I know they are meant to be 10 meter rifles but man they fir the back yard sniper role very well I love both of mine…
Just as an aside I will be puting a Daisy made 953 barrel in a Crosman 2100b(modded with extended (.3″) nose valve)… want to see if the 1:15 twist helps the heavier pellets…
oops forgot the link…
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=65117.0
K.O.
I was not aware of the full history of the daisys but was just going on what the PA site showed for the 953 so it good to know the earlier pre 84 model had LW barrels as well.
I agree the non LW barrels are very good also so for the intended use it likely does not matter except in a competition situation.
Yea every gun has it own pellet preferences and my 853 is a accurate gun out to 30 yards in light winds but as you say past that is stretching it at best in all but dead calm conditions.
So it seems you did just the opposite of me in the mod to the compression chamber by putting the spacer on the outside of the valve spring to decrease the volume and I am curious. Did you use a smaller diameter valve spring that fits inside the nylon spacer that you drilled the hole in or how did you retain the spring to seat the valve poppet. Since my mod the nylon plug fits in side the stock valve spring and to use a bigger diameter spacer like the 1/2″ by 1/2 ” one you stated would require the spring fit inside the spacer if I am picturing it correctly.
I am also building a disco PCP gun using a LW Avanti barrel as well so we can compare results when we get them done. mine will be awhile as I have several project ahead of it at this time but it will get done.
They are cool guns indeed.
BD
I had the 953, with the standard Daisy barrel, it’s no slouch in the accuracy department.
The 853 is stellar in its accuracy, and with a scope or red dot, down right amazing.
They can be bought from the CMP (Civilian Marksmanshop Program) refurbished for $115. The best deal going.
When I want to get someone hooked on airguns, I hand them my 853 with a red dot on it and let them have fun.
Seals are inexpensive from Daisy, and easy to change and last for tens of thousands of rounds. Less than $5 for a set shipped.
When I lived in Mississippi, I volunteered my time to reseal and service the local ROTC units rifles.
BB, skip the pelgun oil on this one, Daisy suggest 30wt. Non detergent motor oil for their guns.
45Bravo
You are correct in that you can buy refurbed 853 from the CMP but only if you are a member which require you belong to a sanctioned shooting club, 4H , VFW, American Legion, military veteran or a number of other affiliated organizations. A non affiliated person can not just order one from them without providing the proper member information.
We have one of the two full time CMP ranges right here in Anniston, Alabama 10 minutes from my house and I shoot there quite a bit since you can take your personnel guns that shoot 600 fps or less there and sight them in at 10 meter on their electronic sighting system that has a screen right at the shooting table next to you that shows your exact impact position down to a perfect 10.9 score. The 10.9 is equivalent to hitting the head of a pencil eraser laying with just its head facing you at 10 meters or pretty much a perfect .177 centered hole on the target. We also have a world class firearms range 20 minute from the house that been open about a year with pistol, and rifles ranges out to 600 yards with electronic scoring as well and also skeet and trap shotgun ranges and a full club house CMP store in conjunction with Creedmoor sports right next to Talladega superspeedway.
BD
Having always being affiliated with more than one organization on the list, I never had any issues with purchasing the air guns, so I never gave it any thought.
I have been to Anniston before twice, not a bad drive when I lived in Mississippi.
Now living in Wisconsin, either of the CMP outlets are a bit of a drive unfortunately.
45bravo
Yea Wisconsin is a good drive to Camp Perry, OH and definitely Anniston, AL indeed. Being in the American legion myself its a non issue for me as well but just wanted to put it out there so folks would know the rules and not try to order one and wonder why they get turned down.
Its nice to have the two ranges in my backyard so to speak since I can sight in airguns and PBs anytime I want to pinpoint accuracy with the electronic scoring even out to 600 yards.
BD
I ordered a refurbished CMP 853 without any membership. Came with more of a pistol grip.
The used 853 came with a 753 stock.
About needing CMP affiliation to buy an 853 through them:. This is incorrect, at least regarding the used/refurbed 853. Perhaps you need it for a new one, but not the $115 ones.
BarryinIN
Here is the order form and clearly states in the first line #1 please include the contact information of the representative of the organization who will be handling the purchase and delivery of the order.
I was also told this by the director of the CMP range in my home town.
This is the first page of the CMP order form. See line #1 of ordering instructions
Used Daisy 853 Air Rifles that have been thoroughly Inspected and reconditioned.
Included with Rifle: –Sights –Slings –Front Sight Inserts –One Butt Plate Spacer. Price: Straight Stock Rifles $100.00 per rifle plus Shipping & Handling (S&H: $14.95 for one rifle, $22.95 for two rifles)
Monte Carlo Stock Rifles $100.00 per rifle plus Shipping & Handling (S&H: $14.95 for one rifle, $22.95 for two rifles)
INSTRUCTIONS To order your rifle(s), please do the following:
1. Complete the Order Form on the back of this page. Be sure to provide contact information for the representative of your organization who will handle the purchase and air rifle delivery.
2. You can fax the form to CMP Rifle Sales at 419-635-2802 or forward this document with payment in full for the rifle(s) to CMP Rifle Sales, P. O. Box 576, Port Clinton, OH 43452. Payment may be made by check, money order or credit card. No COD orders will be accepted.
3. If you have questions, you may contact CMP at: Tommy Whitten, 419-635-2141 ext. 713, twhitten@thecmp.org
BD
All I see there is to make sure they have your contact information. Nowhere on the form does it ask for any proof of affiliation. This is, as far as I know, the only CMP Airgun or firearm where they don’t ask.
I ordered mine three weeks ago (and got it one week later to the day) and did not include any affiliation info.
And here is a thread from the CMP’s own forum where it is discussed. Refer specifically to post number seven.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=188457&highlight=Daisy
BarryinIN
Well that’s good to know as I said I was just going on what I was told by the director at the range so I guess he does not know what he is actually talking about and what the site says as I have never actually tried to order one from them.
Sounds like they need to clarify some of the misinformation on their site to reflect that anyone can order a gun.
Thanks for the correction as I am sure it will help all here who would like to have one..
BD
Yeah, that’s the only reason I argued the point. I want anyone who wants one to get one.
I’ve only had mine a couple of weeks and have gotten my money’s worth. I am a 4-H rifle instructor and we use the 853 as our air rifle. It’s been handy having my own.
As far as making the purchasing requirements more clear, that would be nice. My guess is this may be the only air rifle or firearm they’ve sold this way in decades so it likely never occurred to them to say anything.
BarryinIN
Agreed 100% as they are not clear at all in regards to ordering the 853s. I believe you are probably correct in that its the only air rifle they have sold that way and no one has ever raised a question about their wording so it has not been addressed.
I am glad that anyone that is in the market for one can buy them as well.
Thanks for clarifying for us all.
BD
45Bravo,
I know what Daisy “recommends.” They used to say anything from, 10- to 30-weight oil was fine. They do that because they don’t have a branded product for this purpose, and they sure are not going to recommend anything Crosman makes!
The fact is, Crosman adds a conditioner for o-rings to the 20-weight oil they formulate into Pellgunoil, so it is the better product. I will continue to recommend it.
B.B.
Ahh, I didn’t think about the branded product.
I was just going with what the manufacturer suggested..
Interested to see where you go with this one..
I will also continue to use Pellgun oil in my airguns! I have experienced problems using other lubricants and was wary of using it in my modified for HPA guns but so far so good! As a matter of fact my 2240 leaked down during the trip to Mineral Wells but when I returned I used 1 drop to ensure that it was sealed and it’s still holding 2200psi a month later!
Reb
You use pell gun oil in your High Pressure Air converted 2240. Wonder if that Pellgun oil is petroleum based.
I do just the opposite in my airguns. I use the silicone based RWS oil. My 1377/Disco stocked pumper on the plunger seal and in my Tx in the transfer port hole every now and then. And definitely in my pcp guns.
Not sure what the Pellgun oil has in it. But I’m sure you been around the blog long enough to know petroleum based oil is a no go for pcp HPA guns.
GF1
I think BB did a report on pellgun oil a few years ago or if not ( he can state if he did or not ) then I read it somewhere but I was under the impression that it was a ATF based oil so if that’s correct it is indeed petroleum based oil and definitely should not be used in springer’s or PCPs.
I know the only guns I have that get pellgun oil are pumpers and springer’s and PCPs get pure silicone.
BD
BD and Reb
Here is the link to PA page for the Crosman Pellgun oil. Check out what it says.
/product/crosman-pellgun-oil?a=222
GF1
Yep what we both just said and I still believe its a ATF derivative and I will say REB you need to not use it in your HPA 2240 or you could be in for a whole new world of hurt if you continue to do so.
Be safe not sorry bro.
BD
GF1,
Crosman Pellgunoil (not pell gun oil) is 20-weight motor oil mixed with an o-ring preservative.
B.B.
BB
I see that now on the container it comes in.
And the PA page calls it Pellgun oil.
But we know what we mean.
And then if it is made from engine oil then it probably does have petroleum in it.
Oh and did you notice I said engine oil and not motor oil. If I remember correctly a “motor” is electric. Engines aren’t. Here’s something to read quick. It’s very short.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine
I have seen photos of a 753 which seems to have a more profiled stock and different diopter sights. I assume it has the same action as the 853. Looking forward to test and trigger tune as this seems a very nice target rifle.
Thanks to your pistol shooting articles BB you have got me going , purchased a Beeman P17 to practise with.
I have made rapid progress by following your instructions re stance and way to hold a pistol.
Mercury,
Thanks for the feedback on the pistol holds.
B.B.
B.B.,
Off-topic, but yesterday I was browsing the Pyramyd AIR site, drooling over all of the different limited edition John Wayne Colt SAA models, and I noticed that some Umarex Colt SAAs are described as having a 5.5 inch barrel, others as having a 5.0 inch barrel, and yet others having a 4.5 inch barrel, although all of the photos show an Artillery Model SAA with 5.5 inch barrel.
Do you know, or if not might you find out, if a) the different barrel lengths refer to the actual functional barrel within the cosmetic one, b) these are misprints, or C) (gasp) might a shorter barrel Umarex Civilian Model SAA now or soon be available?
I have the the U.S. Marshal Museum Commemorative SAA and a nickel one for playing with. But the one Umarex SAA Special Edition Colt SAA I think I would genuinely consider purchasing, is a non-engraved, worn, blued 4 3/4 length “Will Kane//Gary Cooper” Edition with dark wood grain grip. Oh heck, even if it were not a special edition, a blued 4 3/4 incher would complete the set for me!
Michael
Michael,
I have notified the person who writes the descriptions. I believe all barrels are 5.5 inches at this time.
When I was at Umarex USA is heard that a Cavalry model (7-inch barrel) will be the first gun to have a different length.
B.B.
Michael,
We checked and they are all 5.5 inches at this time.
The corrections will be made.
B.B.
B.B., this is a gun about which I’ve always been curious; I look forward to your “take” on it. =)
Thedavemyster,
I can already tell you that I like the 853 a lot! It is a best buy in this category. This test will just show the results for this gun when tested my way.
B.B.
I believe the plastic stock actually saved the valve body and compression chamber however had it been wooden I’m sure it woulda resembled a pile of toothpicks! I had to straighten up the folded metal sheathing covering the compression chamber and clean up the piston and replace the o-rings with some I fou in the hardware section and then filled the piston half of the compression chamber which rendered less than desirable results probably due to decreased air volume.
That’s good to know; thank you. =)
Our 853 was what started us on a now 10 year excursion into shooting for accuracy, rather than just plinking at tin cans.
As you say B.B., out of the box it is good, but we polished the trigger and added an Anschutz rear sight (which cost more than the rifle) and it will easily stack 5 pellets on top of each other at 10m…and has won its fair share of local competitions…sometimes against much more expensive FWB and the such.
It’s been shot so much that we’ve needed to replace the seals twice. I’d say that for the 4 or 5 years of its life when we (both myself and my two young sons) it likely say close to 1000 pellets a week. The finish is gone from much of the fore end and grip, yet it shoots as well today as it did out of the box.
Alas, it doesn’t see much use in the summers anymore as all three of us have gravitated to rimfire competitions…but during the winter (in Alberta where it is often too cold to shoot outdoors Nov-Feb we are in our basement range with our good old 853 at least a couple of times a week.
Mr. Gaylord:
Thank you for reviewing the Daisy 853. I know from experience that the Daisy 853 is an excellent rifle. We have several of them in the Crews armory. However, it’s not the junior’s preferred rifle. They will shoot it, but their preference is the CO2 Daisy Match Avanti 887 or the PCP AirForce Edge. When we go to the Anderson range at Camp Perry, they’ll take either the 877’s or rent the AR type National Match Air Rifles.
Their complaint with the the Daisy 853 is with the under lever cocking action. I’ve seen my smaller juniors struggle with it. It’s awkward even for the older juniors. They still have to come off target to cock and reload.
Any coaching suggestions you can give to address their under lever complaints, would be greatly appreciated.
Respectfully
Wm. Schooley
Rifle Coach
Crew 357
Chelsea, MI
William,
You summarized the 853’s pump very well. And I know of no fixes for it.It’s just too darned hard! If Daisy had any engineers left they could look at what the Russians did with the IZH 46M and perhaps do something similar. But I am afraid the parade has passed the 853 by. It’s still a wonderful youth target rifle — just not competitive with today’s best guns.
B.B.
B.B.,
A “well played” use of leverage and/or compound leverage,….. that is what it boils down to.
Chris
B.B.,
Thank You so much for doing this gun! I’m one of those that has asked for it! So many people that have them love the rifle. I’ll be looking forward to the tests/review. Thanks again and good to hear you are recovering.
Doc
Almost got a 753, but the “dark side” was calling. For any anyone that have never used peep sights, they are great! Tons better than open sights,… in my opinion.
I have the 499 and love it. I actually took the smallest circle insert and found a wee-bitty washer that (just) pressed inside. It works great. Colored black with a marker and it has never fallen out after hundreds of shots.
Just my 2 cents, Chris
I really hope to “run into” one of these at a good price one day. 10meter rifles fascinate me but the price can be discouraging. One of these could be just the ticket especially since learning the trigger can be improved. I’ll just tack this onto my wish list 🙂
SUCCESS! After a jump start from Buldawg 76 my research time was significantly reduced and with the help from a “rain day” from work I was able to build a very basic, robust and adaptable spring compressor. I found the cause of my problems in my Diana 36… The mainspring was canted approx 15 -20° and had several other little waves through it’s entirety… O yeah it was also in 3 pieces… not so good. I was amazed at how simple it all came apart! I had done more research than I had thought by just paying close attention to this blog. Between the schematic that Buldawg shared with me and pretty decent video I was able to figure out what was what and experienced a snag free teardown. Well I guess there is one snag. I didn’t give myself enough time to order my kit. 😉
I do have one question for the pros. I bought a tube of “lube” containing moly. What can I do to make sure I have a quality product? I’ve been around the block enough to know that not much is as good as it seems, meaning usually you don’t save any money because you buy the cheap stuff and then end up going back for the quality product. I also kind of remember a shred of info that the “carrier” for the moly is important. Also what in particular should I be deburring? I am pretty confident in saying that this is the same action as a Diana 34? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Sorry for the long windedness. I am just super charged up about this first project. 🙂
Punchin Holes,
First, and above all,…. CONGRATULIONS on you first tear down!!!!! Second,….. yep,… the 3 spring pieces ain’t good.
As for lube, what you got is probably just fine. Metal to metal contact areas is where you want to use it. Keep it OUT of anything that will see the compression pressures. (cylinder and piston area). Use some pure silicone oil for that. That,.. you may have to order and buy.
As for de-burring,…. look at,.. and (understand),.. everything. You will see what needs de-burred and what does not matter.
My 2 cents.
Again,… congratulations,… you did well,….. that little bit of “homework” paid off.
Chris
Chris USA
HEY thanks!! I had a pretty good idea on what to buff on but I figured I would ask. Again thanks for the advice on the moly. I haven’t used any of that since my hydraulic brake press operating days. We had that stuff by the paint can sized containers. It looks like rain again tomorrow so I’ll get another good jump on it.
Punchin Holes
Wow you did get right to work on getting it apart and now you know what a broken spring sounds like in a springer when cocking and surprisingly they still shoot half way decent only at reduced power.
The moly is indeed for metal to metal only and if you have an electrical supply shop or dive shop near you should be able to find silicone grease at one of those places. Its called die electric grease in the electrical field and just silicone grease at a dive shop or in a pinch an auto part store has those little ketchup sized packet of die electric grease for use on spark plugs that is silicone.
My self and GF1 use lithium grease on the piston seal and compression chamber as an assembly lube then just silicone oil for maintenance lubing. if you have a hobby shop that sells RC cars near you they will have pure silicone shock oil in varying weight from 10 to 100 weight, I use 50 weight mixed with some 20 weight since when I bought mine they did not have 30 weight oil. Here is a link to some silicone grease.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scuba-Diving-Silicone-Grease-5g-1-6-oz-for-O-Rings-Regulator-Valve-Seals-/171942175144?hash=item28088d61a8:g:2mEAAOSw37tV~zxi
BD
Punchin Holes,
Yes, the Diana 36 is the same barreled action as the 34.
B.B.
These rifles certainly fill a niche for youth. I always thought that there should be some beginning stage before getting an Anschutz match rifle in high school that I was not ready for. (Conan’s father: “Boy, you’re not ready for the sword!”) But what organization uses them? I’ve only seen kids shooting rimfire rifles where I grew up and at the local youth club at my current range.
This rifle did cross my mind in my early budget days. But one thing that turned me off was the lever action on top of the bolt action. That’s the same problem I have with the Benjamin 397 series. The Daisy was in competition with the IZH 61, and I have never regretted my choice.
On another note, I was reading an interesting article where a respected gun writer said that 1 MOA is the standard of accuracy for rested rifles. But what would be the comparable standard for offhand shooting? I’ve never heard of one. The writer went on to say that three shots in a paper plate at 100 yards in one minute meant that you were a credible offhand shot. That seems to set the bar a little low compared to 1 MOA, but I guess it is in the ballpark.
Matt61
Matt61,
Is there not any off hand rifle (competitions) that exist? If so,… that would be my first choice for what “can” be done off hand. Double, or even triple that,… and that is what I would aspire to. Yea, maybe a bit simplistic,.. but that is where I would start.
Chris
Chris USA
Did you take a breather from the Mrod?
And just thought I would mention this. If I remember right you said your were looking for power out of your .25 Mrod. That’s why I gave you those settings.
Buldawg sent me a link to that Mrod tuning way back when he got his Mrod. His that he tuned at that time was a .177 caliber. He was using it for feild target. So he was trying to get a good shot count to make it through the match with out having to refill all the time. So he was trying to balance out power and shot count with that particular gun. And he can correct me if I’m remembering wrong.
I had a .177 Mrod that I tuned that way also back then. I was using the JSB 10.34’s and found that they liked 900 or so fps out of my Mrod. So I think Buldawg started messing with his tune and those pellets.
But what I’m getting at is I have my .25 Mrod tuned for maximum power. And it took me a while of playing with different striker springs that ranged from 10-16 #’s. Finally settled on a 12# striker spring and a higher fill psi than normal. But I’m getting good fps and a fair shot count that doesn’t affect my POI even out at a 100+ yards.
And one thing to understand that I found is that most of the time 2 guns of the same type need different tunes to get them how you want them. And believe me that don’t happen in one day of shooting. It’s probably been a little over a year since I got this .25 Mrod I’m messing with. And after multiple different set ups it’s finally what I want. Oh but not to say I won’t try to get more out of it. Because you know me I will try.
So you decide what you want out of your .25 Mrod and then we’ll see what it takes to get it there and if it’s a reasonable want.
Just being persistent me. 🙂
GF1,
Well,… I just sent you a nice and lengthy reply. It vaporized.
Short version,… I will try what you said and we will go from there.
Chris USA
Well that’s a bummer. Was interested in what you said.
And that use to happen with me on my desk tops and laptops. It doesn’t happen on my phone. But I think there is a setting you can change on your computer to make that stop. Maybe somebody else knows how.
But ok interested to see how your gun acts with the tune. I guess you don’t do anything during the week.
GF1,
Generally not much. I do all my own cooking and I do cook. Pack good lunch stuff. Up early. During the week it might be some 499 indoors or some hands on gun work, research, etc.. Your test is outdoors. Put in for Friday off, the only non-rain day this week. Will hit it hard then.
Chris USA
Taking Friday off and messing with your air guns. Lucky you. 🙂
That’s sounds like what I use to do all the time till I used up my vacation time. 🙁
And I know what you mean. I’m pretty busy through the week also. So I’ll be waiting for your report on your gun.
GF1,
Still have about 85 hrs. left,…. so,… I am good,.. (for now). This PCP stuff may change all that though! 😉 If I had taken none this year, I would end up with 4 weeks and only 2 can be carried over. I like 3 days (Friday and week end) and cooler,.. not too hot,…. so spring and fall are my prime times. Of course,… summer,… out early,….. works too.
Chris USA
Well did you read any of me and Buldawgs conversation just now about pcp’s and chronys and POI?
GF1,
Yes I did,… early this morning in fact. Interested in that 12# spring and BD76’s SSG thing,… but that will be later. For now,… I will do the POI and chrony check thing and get back with you.
What do I want? A hunter. Max. power, but not so fast that the pellet won’t work. Good fill count,… 16 would be good, more would be better. 24 looks to be pushing things. High fill, but that should be good with higher adjustments. I do not want valve lock, but if I get it,… I can deal with it. (de-gasser tool).
I still need to re-read the papers I got, but I am not sure HOW all the adjustments interact. Yea, the port screw will meter air and increase shot count. Power will suffer, but that may not be bad, if the pellet needs it. Max. hammer tension in and striker stroke out will max. power, but,…. what does each actually do. Then there is talk of “balancing the 2,… or all 3”.
Heck,… I may even return to factory settings and try that.
As I said,… I will max. out and get back with you. Will do POI test and verify with chrony and tank readings.
By the way, The 2X4’s worked good. Full of lead. I think I would have been good, but extra safe does not hurt. Muzzle was 5′ from 1/8″ steel plate.
Chris USA
The heavier striker spring will help to prevent valve lock.
Valve lock happens when the pressure is too high in the resivoir for the striker/hammer to knock the valve open.
I have filled my Mrods to 3200psi and still had the factory striker spring in the gun and never got valve lock.
What you will notice is a slower velocity when you get to much resivoir pressure without enough striker spring. That’s what you look for when your finding you full fill pressure. If you see 3-4 low fps readings on your chrony then your velocity increases. That’s when I look at the gauge reading to determine if I want to call that my high fill pressure.
But you’ll find that as we were talking about you could fill above that and still have enough velocity to keep a good POI.
So really you need to get the right pellet in the gun and shoot and see how the gun poi’s and record fill levels as you shoot. You will find you will have a greater shot count that way then going by what the chrony says.
So when you shoot Friday and spend some time with the gun I think you will see what I mean.
Chris USA
There was no reply button below.
But yep it sounds like your on the right track for your Friday shooting session. And I know you will give updates as you go. Will be waiting. 🙂
GF1 and Chris,USA
Yea I used the A team guide to tune my 177 for shot count and to keep the 10.34s at 890 to 900 fps . Well originally I tuned for them at 925 fps but found that it was to fast for the 10.34s and slowing them down improved the accuracy quite a bit. But that was as GF1 said so I could shoot a full match without filling the gun.
The tune for the 25 is completely different as it will be for high power as well as shot count so its going to be a compromise on both but I will have a 500cc tank as well so lots more air to utilize as well as a 3500 psi fill. I will be tuning for somewhere in the 920/940 fps range with 33.95s or what ever fps they are most accurate at and all I am waiting on is my valve to be ready from Cothran machine to build my 25 as I have all the other parts ready to assemble. The valve and TP port adapter should be ready later this week. Fingers crossed.
BD
BD
Yep that’s what it was. The A team giude. Couldn’t remember. But yep the .177 Mrod and .25 definitely use air differently.
I put the 12# spring back in mine over the weekend after I found out the 14 and 16# spring made no difference in velocity. Mine chronyed this last weekend at 950 down to 905 with the JSB 33.95’s and that’s with all settings maxed out and a 3500 psi fill. And that was 20 shots.
But here is the thing. At 50 yards and in I could take about 29 shots and see the POI only drop off about a 1/8″ at 50 yards.
But now this is the important thing. Listen what happened when I filled the gun up to 3500 and shot at 100 yards. I was able to only get about 19 shots before my POI started dropping at a 100 yards.
Wondering why. Because the drop in velocity as I shot at the longer distance showed up more than at close distances.
Think about it. I bet I could take 45 or maybe more shots with the same gun at 10 yards before I seen any POI drop.
So again it matters how your going to use your gun.
GF1
The whole thing about POI and distance is the pellet slows down faster the farther out of the barrel it gets so at 50 yards and in it is not losing a lot of its velocity as compared to once it gets past 50 yards it starts to slow down much faster for every yard and therefore the POI start to change faster as well.
Its all about the drag on the skirt and the more the pellet is in the air the more effect the drag has on it velocity. So you will see a bigger shift in POI the farther away you get from the gun and with your 25 its start to really show up past 50 yards as the pressure drops in the last few shots.
Your string of 950 to 905 is a big spread and so as you get closer to the 15 plus shot mark the velocity is dropping faster than the first 10 or so shots so that why you start to see a difference out past 50 yards on the last few shots per fill.
Yea the guns use determine the tune you put in it to optimize the way you want it to shoot. it all a compromise as to what and how you adjust it.
BD
BD
Yep that’s the point I was trying to make.
I told Chris yesterday on the blog to shoot his gun after a fill and tune and watch POI. Chrony’s will show you what the guns velocity is but the chrony doesn’t know at what distance your going to shoot targets at.
So for the given gun and tune you have to shoot the gun to see how velocity will affect your POI. The chrony readings is just something to reference back to see if the gun is still producing those results.
I don’t care if my pcp gun has a 100 fps spread if I can still put pellets touching each other at the distance I want to shoot at. The distance will be a determining factor of how many usable shots I get per fill. Then I have to see if that will be ok for the type of shooting I will be doing.
GF1
Agree 100% on all of it as the whole point of any tune is to be able to hit your target consistently shot after shot.
So you chrony to get a idea of the ranges the gun should shoot good at and then shoot it to actually verify the results and repeat tuning and shooting till you end up with the gun shooting the way you need/want it to for its intended use.
Its a balance/compromise as to what velocity versus shot count works best for your needs.
That’s why my 177 will have a much different tune than my 25 will have since the intended use is entirely different.
BD
BD
Yep with you.
GF1,
From above, running out of room,…. I have yet to see the low fps at the start. All chrony test thus far have been high out of the gate and fall from there. I understood that I needed higher hammer spring pressure if I was going higher on the fill. I am 5 in now from factory and the manual says past 6 will not do anything else. So I am getting close to the max. on that already. The striker stroke is 1 (out) from factory. The manual says that I can go up to 12 (in) on that. You say back that (out), which I will do. So,.. I have yet to explore the (out) limits on that.
I will max. both out and see. Use the HN’s. Fill is currently at 3200 with no issues. If I do not see the low to high fps at the start, I may try bumping the fill up 50 at a time until I see it. That way I will know what my top fill will be. But yes,.. will be doing the poi testing Friday.
Matt61
They are used still very frequently in the civilian marksmanship program ( CMP ) youth shooting leagues like the 4H and cub scouts and even girl scouts. If you are a vet or affiliated with any military organization such as VFW or American legion or a shooting club that is recognized by the CMP you can buy refurbed 853s and even surplus PBs and ammo from the CMP at reduced prices.
You just have to provide a DD214 or club affiliation to their site to become a member.
http://thecmp.org/
BD
Hi BB, hope all is well with you. i was looking to buy the Daisy 853 and found it was discontinued. Pyramyd AIR is offering the Daisy 753S with a synthetic stock. i’m assuming this is a lower model, but it does have a better diopter site. i am wondering if the 753S is comparable to the 853 and a good starter 10M match rifle. i can’t afford the $1000+ for a real competition rifle. Will the 753S be adequate to get into some entry level competitions? Thanks in advance for your insights!
Regards,
Peter
Peter,
The 753 is actually a slightly higher grade of the 853. Buy it with confidence. It’s the 953 that’s the cheaper gun.
B.B.
haha, go figure, i thought the lower number was a lower model…obviously the reverse! thanks for your advice BB!
Peter,
A single pumper has been on my list from the start. I have the Avanti 499, which is awesome for a bb rifle. I do enjoy the peepers as well. The 753 may be my next, to round things out.
Chris
Hey Chris USA, thanks for your input. Same, the single-stroke was in my sights for the last couple years, so i went ahead and got the 753 from Pyramydair this weekend! Can’t wait….. 🙂
Peter
Hey Chris USA, thanks for your input. Same, the single-stroke was in my sights for the last couple years, so i went ahead and got the 753 from Pyramydair this weekend! Can’t wait….. 🙂
Peter
Hey Chris USA, thanks for your input. Same, the single-stroke was in my sights for the last couple years, so i went ahead and got the 753 from Pyramydair this weekend! Can’t wait….. 🙂
Peter
Hi BB, thanks, I just needed that extra assurance it’s BB approved…..so I went ahead and purchased the 753 from Pyramydair! In preparation for it’s arrival, I’d like to plan out how to test out which pellets/brand it likes to shoot. Do you have a set procedure for doing this? How many different tins to buy? Pellet weight? Stick with one brand? …etc. Do you have a blog article describing this? If not, can you do one?? 🙂 🙂 Thanks in advance BB!
Regards,
Peter
Peter,
Shoot off a solid bag — not hand-held and not held in a vice. Get Finale Match Pistol pellets, R10 Pistol pellets to start will. Maybe some Hobbys, too. If they offer head sizes, go with 4.5 to start with.
And then just shoot, shoot and shoot again!
B.B.
Hi BB, why pistol pellets? Are there quality differences between the two?
Thanks,
Peter
Peter,
Pistol pellets are lighter and the 753 powerplant isn’t that powerful. They are best suited to its power.
B.B.
Hi BB, ok, that’s why…. what would be a good pellet weight for the 753? If weight was a concern, are any alloy (H&N green) pellets good for 10M match shooting with the 753?
Thanks,
Peter
Peter,
Try to stay below 8 grains. And the Sig Match Ballistic Alloy pellet is a good one to try.
B.B.
Thanks very much BB, I will give those suggested pellets a go….very excited!
Regards,
Peter