by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Crosman M1 Carbine BB gun is a classic lookalike airgun.
This report covers:
- Cocking effort
- 2013 test
- Oiled the gun
- Magazine
- Velocity Daisy BBs
- Air Venturi steel BBs
- Hornady Black Diamond BBs
- Trigger pull
- Summary
Today we look at the velocity of Crosman’s M1 Carbine BB gun. You learned in Part 1 that this gun is based on Crosman’s V-350 powerplant which gets its name from the expected velocity — 350 f.p.s. That’s pretty hot for a BB gun — especially one from the era of the 1960s.
I may not have mentioned it before, but my Carbine weighs 5 lbs. It’s a good weight for kids. Too bad they can’t cock it!
Cocking effort
Let’s get this out of the way first. I think this will be the first time I have measured this effort, and I made a big deal of it in Part 1. So I placed the muzzle of the gun in the center of my scale and pressed down until the gun cocked. It took about 42 pounds of force to cock my gun. It was hard to measure it precisely because the gun jerked a lot while being cocked, but it was definitely greater than 38 pounds to engage the sear. No wonder kids had a hard time!
I thought shooting might loosen up the action, so I retested it after the velocity test. The effort hadn’t changed.
2013 test
I last tested the velocity of my Crosman M1 Carbine in 2013. At that time I was getting velocities well above 350 f.p.s. — as much as 40 f.p.s. faster. A number of new BBs have come to market since then, so today we may have a pleasant surprise.
Oiled the gun
This is a BB gun, so I oiled the mechanism first. There is an oil port behind the BB loading port on top of the upper handguard, so this was easy. Then I started shooting.
Magazine
The gun has an inline 22-shot BB magazine under the upper handguard. What looks like the mag is really just a box that can be filled with Bbs for reloading. But it doesn’t fed into the gun.
Load the BBs through a hole in the front of the upper handguard.
What looks like the magazine is just a box for extra BBs. It doesn’t feed into the gun.
Velocity Daisy BBs
I will test velocity with Daisy BBs first. In 2013 they averaged 383 f.p.s. Today the average was 375. The spread went from a low of 360 to a high of 385, so the gun is still in the same neighborhood. The spread was 23 f.p.s., where in 2013 it was 26 f.p.s. This test was a sort of baseline, because I had done it before.
Air Venturi steel BBs
Next I tried Air Venturi steel BBs that weren’t available in 2013. They averaged 374 f.p.s. with a spread from 358 to 382 f.p.s. That’s 24 f.p.s. difference.
Hornady Black Diamond BBs
The last BB I tried was the Hornady Black Diamond. These were also0 not around in 2013. They averaged 372 f.p.s. with a spread from 354 to 377 f.p.s. That’s 23 f.p.s.
Trigger pull
The trigger is not adjustable. It is single-stage and breaks at 2 lbs. 8 oz.
Summary
My gun is performing pretty much as it did 4 years ago. For a gun that is no less than 41 years old, that is pretty good!
So far, so good. The M1 Carbine has performed admirably for the 20 years I have owned it. It was a gift from my late friend, Mac, so I think of him whenever I shoot it.
I wonder what the Avanti precision ground shot would do over the chronograph? Some BB guns seem to like their slightly larger OD. But the MV is already very respectable. A 2lb 2oz trigger is also outstanding. Accuracy testing will be interesting.
B.B.,
Glad to see that the Ol’ Girl is still shooting up to par. You mentioned a 22 shot gravity fed magazine. I wondered if there is any visual indication to tell where in the shot count you are?,.. like a small window or something that shows that there is still bb’s in the gun. I was surprised that the trigger pull was as low as it is.
Also, how does the faux magazine box,.. clip and un-clip? I assume that there is something that is spring loaded.
Have a safe trip home.
Good Day all,.. Chris
Chris, regarding our conversation on the Daisy 499 hybrid, I wanted to give you a heads up on what I found yesterday. If/when you modify your 499, don’t use a preload shim. After removing it my gun actually picked up MV.
First column of numbers are the MVs of the modified Daisy 499 with the 1/2″ preload spacer. The second column is without the spacer:
High 417…….430
Low 407……..419
Avg 412……..421
ES 10…………11
SD 3…………..4
And as far as accuracy, the gun is back to shooting as accurately as it did before modifying it. This came as a very pleasant surprise.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/putting-a-little-more-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/page-10#post-10524947
Cobalt,
Thank you for the update. I am short on AM time at the moment, but I am pretty sure that I will be doing this especially since you say that the accuracy did not suffer.
Way to go on forging the trail! Was this your idea, or something that you had seen else ware?
Chris
Blame it on me. I was curious what the results would be, so I swapped springs to find out. I haven’t heard of anyone else having done this, but it wouldn’t surprise me if I did.
Cobalt,
Well then,.. Hat’s off!,… to you Sir. Shoot it a bunch so that we know if the trigger/latch rod/sear is going to get weak or worn. I doubt it, but I am counting on you to run the “499 Cobalt Hyper Tune” through its paces. 😉 Chris
For you, Chris- consider it done! 😉
It will take a while (could be a week or more) to really wring it out. If there’s any sign of a problem I’ll let it be known immediately in the current blog. That sound like a plan?
Cobalt,
Yes! Thank you! I am very interested in doing this. In fact, I might even look for Daisy/Avanti to pick up on the idea and offer a “Magnum” 499 sometime in the future. 🙂
The TX 200 spring, chopped was too much,… but hey,… I had to try it. I did an HO spring upgrade and a 12 fpe. spring kit prior. The one I tried in the 499 was the 12 fpe. While I could see no signs of wear or stress, the sear would barely hold after 1 or 2 shots. (too much?,.. ya think?) I replaced the latch rod and the trigger assy. It is INSANE how low $ parts are. I love it. Great service and an actual person picks up the phone. By the way, the newer latch rod/piston assy. now has a foam wiper behind the seal. Not sure of the purpose, but I gave it a good dose of silicone chamber oil and put it all back together.
Looking forward to hearing more. No rush.
Thanks again, Chris
Well, we need to enjoy the parts while we can. There’s a possibility that Daisy’s airgun parts program- which has been great in the past- might not continue as it is now. That’s because Daisy is now under the control of Gamo. By looking at Gamo’s website it’s not hard to see their interest in supplying parts for the airguns they sell is almost nil. A thread discussing this is http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=122499.0.
Oh, and I would recommend that you seek some GOOD legal advice if you plan to sell airguns that you modify. Liability and all that…
Cobalt,
Wow!!! That link was a real “gem”. Holy Cow! (all the rest of you,.. check it out) That would be a real shame and a mistake in my opinion. The 499 and the single pumpers are totally awesome. I never have had a single pumper but I want one. BB,… please help if there is anything that can be done. Keep the good one’s and the part’s supply!
On selling,… probably will never happen. I chose carefully and am happy with what I have. But,.. advise taken.
Thanks again for your help, sharing, tips and insight. I admire your “experimental spirit”.
Chris
Chris, thanks for the kind words of support. And good luck with whatever you decide!
Did you ever try muzzleloading pellets?
Brent
Not yet, but if time permits I will today. One possible problem with this is the actual barrel crown is down inside the ‘funnel’ that’s threaded onto it. This could make starting the pellet into the shot tube difficult without deforming the skirt.
MV for one shot using Crosman Wadcutter 4.5 grain was 337 fps. No idea if the skirt was too undersized because I rolled it between my thumb and index finger to ‘size’ the skirt so I could load it. I’m going to be trying a few ideas for muzzle loading the pellets as well as finding what pellet works best.
A lever action that would shoot pellets in the low 400’s to 500’s would be the ultimate plinking gun
I like lever actions, too. One other gun that almost fits the bill is the CMP 853. I got one a month or so back and it shoots almost 500 fps using CPHP 7.9 gr’ers and is VERY accurate, even at 25-plus yards. Not a lever action but it is a single pumper.
Brent,
You mean besides the Walther lever action?
B.B.
I want a cowboy style gun mod like the Marlin Cowboy. I guess it’s redemption for the Daisy Golden 750 that was such a disappointment in my childhood. I guess I want it for my second childhood 🙂
Cobalt, stop tempting me LOL. A 499 that could shoot 410 fps does sound nice. And with the same accuracy, that is really nice. If a Umarex Fusion could shoot as good as a 499….one can dream. 600 fps and that kind of accuracy. I’m just a wild can hunter, but I do like to stretch it out to 25+ yards just for fun. With pellet guns, it’s not that hard, but bb shooters is real challenging.
Doc.
Haha didn’t plan on it, that’s for sure, but every once in a while the stars align… or maybe closer to the one about a blind pig finding an acorn! But I tend to doubt the pellet is sealing to the shot tube as it should, but nothing wrong with how it spits out BBs. Average energy for the BB is 2.1 ft-lb, the pellet is 1.14 ft-lb.
Chris,
I haven’t mine handy to address the faux magazine release. So many of those magazines are missing, I’ve always felt it best to leave alone! ;^)
No indicator for how many BB s remain. Man do they load easily in this gun.
Finally, my Crosman doesn’t have a bad trigger pull, but I think it is heavier than the pull on BB’s one.
Michael
Chris,
O.K., one removes the magazine by pushing it up and forward, and then gently angling the bottom of the mag a bit farther and pulling downward. Pushing it up and forward frees it from a catch in the BB gun.
You can see the catch at the rear of the mag in the third picture above.
Michael
Michael,
Thanks for the additional insight!
BB
As you know I like to get creative with airguns, the ‘Heavy Wi-Fi’ – M249 conversion for example, and the first thing I would do to this one is install some sort of bayonet lug that would allow the barrel to pass through it and cover the worn paint area.
Think how easy it would be today to create a sturdy replica wood stocked CO2 pellet version of the Paratrooper Model with the folding stock and a pistol grip to hold the CO2 cartridge, a cycling bolt and perhaps a rotary mag like the 1077 with a thinner section of mag sticking out that looks like the original 15 rounder. Don’t think they could fit a CO2 cartridge in a slim looking 30cal mag. Perhaps they can?
They could even put a CO2 cartridge up the bottom of the grip area of a full stock version.
There seems to be a trend with pistols toward having the trigger action slide the inner barrels forward or backward to capture a bb from the mag while cocking and firing a hammer at the same time. Like the Daisy 5170 or the new M11. May be a simpler way to go if they can keep the trigger pull reasonable.
Bob M,
Sig Saur’s new magazine mechanism would be a prime candidate for what you want. If Umarex and Sig Saur ever decide to put their heads together, we are going to see some very awesome airguns in the future. Wouldn’t a CO2 pellet Thompson be cool (pun intended).
RidgeRunner
Speaking of cool, I have a Healthways Plainsman CO2 pistol that dumps the CO2 into the cartridge cavity in the grip when it’s punctured. It’s upside down, sort of speaking. I wonder if the CO2 temperature drop is reduced any with this set up compared to taking it directly from the cartridge each shot?
Dual CO2 cartridge containers work like this too. Food for thought.
End of my Sunday night, rack time for me …
I wonder how hard it would be to set it up for bulk filling.
Cobalt
If you permanently modify the Plainsman CO2 cartridge retaining cap to accept an air fitting it’s probably possible. Remove the lever and plunger, cut, drill and thread it.
The cap is 3/4′ on diameter with 7/8″ diameter threads and has a lever operated o ring sealed pin going through the center to puncture the cartridge.
The cylinder in the grip that the cartridge slides into has no threading, is actually a free floating tube and relies on a large o ring on the end of the cap to seal it off as it’s screwed into the fixed threads of the ‘ pistol frame ‘.
Therefore you would pretty much have to duplicate the cap with an o ring provision on the end if you made it from scratch. Screwing fittings into the grip alone will not work.
Thanks for that explanation!
Years ago I had a full auto BB gun, well, more of a pistol, that used automotive freon cans for propellant. Lark, maybe? Anyway, it iced up after a long string. Was fun but went through pounds of BBs in no time.
Cobalt327,
That does sound like the Larc. Was it black plastic? I believe there are ways to power those without the freon cans. Youtube probably has a bunch of videos of folks doing that.
Actually, I think the whole Larc mechanism was so simple that youtube might have a lot of videos demonstrating how to make one of those from scratch that runs off of a shop compressor.
Michael
I checked ‘Larc’ and yes, that’s the one. I never thought about running it off of an air compressor but today that would be the only way to go about using one, seeing as how Freon 12 is made of unobtainium and even the replacement automotive refrigerants are way too expensive for use as a propellant. I don’t know what the pressure was for the Freon I used, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was above what most home shop compressors make so the performance might not be quite as good. Or maybe the difference between air and Freon would let lower pressure air work as well as Freon… either way it could still be fun.
B.B.,
I haven’t chronied mine, but I don’t think it is nearly as hot as yours is. It does cock with difficulty, though, just like yours. Mine does get ever-so-slightly less difficult after the first three or four times. Mine is like a band aid, do it quickly in one quick, decisive motion.
The weight and feel, even with the plastic furniture, is excellent. Just holding it feels good.
I mentioned here four years ago, and folks have suggested it here today and in Part 1, that this is a model Umarex or Gletcher really needs to market in a CO2 replica. The Winchester/Daisy M14 already has shown that the magazine is perfect for housing two CO2 cartridges, and the faux wood on the Gletcher Mosin Nagant rifle replicas is excellent.
Thanks much for revisiting this excellent replica from yesteryear.
Michael
B.B.,
A question: I have found pictures online that show three different versions of the stock. Of course the first is the slab-like wood one, then the light plastic one, and then I have seen and heard of a third version came out with a plastic stock that was darker than the more common second version. I have always wondered if the photo I once saw of that version beside the other two was really showing a regular light-colored plastic stock that had been darkened by dye, shoe polish, or some other method. To your knowledge was there a third version?
I did find one online by a fellow who purchased a surplus real stock and put the action in it. It looked very nice, but the owner said the project took much more wood removal than he expected, to the point that it was quite an undertaking.
Michael
Michael,
Don’t know about the darker stock, but I once saw a white plastic stock. Super rare!
B.B.
B.B.,
A winter-warfare camo! Wow. That sounds like a prototype, perhaps Crosman testing Croswood for its properties before even selecting the coloring.
I wonder if hen’s teeth are white. That was one-of-a-kind rare.
Michael
Michael,
No mention in the Blue Book of color variations. It does say add 60% for the wood stocked version.
150$ for 100%, which I assume is the plastic version. Wood ’66-’67. Plastic ’68-’76. Just some FYI for ya.
Chris,
Thanks for the info.
The plastic is the better of the two, believe it or not. They both have real weight to them, as the plastic is substantial, not “plasticky,” and it has full contours, whereas the wood one is really just a slightly rounded slab. The wood is more rare and so more collectible, though.
Michael
Hi BB
Please forgive my ignorance. This M1 looks a lot like a 1077. Am I correct that the 1077 is a replica of the 1022 and the 1022 is based on the M1? If so, then the Wildfire almost complete the full circle with almost every type of gun (BB, air rifle, rimfire & centrefire) represented.
Vasco,
The 1022 is not a Carbine replica. It’s just a semiauto .22.
B.B.
Thanks BBC
That clarifies it, but it would have been nice.
B.B.,
not asking you to try them, but would this Crosman M-1 be able to shoot smart shot non steel bbs? I can’t remember if you said there was a magnet in it or not. Thanks for your insights and info on this gun. I hate to admit, but I also always thought this was a C02 gun.
Thanks,
Doc
Doc,
It might. I was going to try them but ran out of time.
B.B.
the v350 series of bb guns use a spring detent system to hold the bb’s in the breach unlike the magnet used in most bb guns today so yes it should work fine and perhaps tame that powerplant a bit…
RidgeRunner, swap “ever decide to put their HEADS together”, would that be NAVY talk again? Semper Fi!
Hi BB
I was just given a Crosman backpacker 2289G .22 serial # 802B14653 C (14.5″ barrel) by a friend, to restore. It has been unused for quite some time, rusted slightly & not holding air. I’ve no experience with these guns, but there is plenty of utube info on disassembly. There are also parts suppliers & diagrams online. I need your advice Sir before I attempt anything on the gun, like is it a good accurate gun worth repairing? What is the velocity like in a new gun? So sorry I’m off topic.
Errol
Errol,
Backpackers are accurate and will shoot .22 pellets in the high 500s and low 600s with that length barrel.
B.B.
Errol
I hate to ask the obvious, but have you given the piston head a liberal dousing of pellgun oil?
If not, do that and then horse the pump lever like a madman to warm it up. If that doesn’t work it just needs to be resealed.
The 2289 is what most 1377s want to be and it is a very good gun definitely worth repairing.
You can also get a longer drop-in barrel for dirt cheap.
Good luck buddy.
Hi Slinging Lead
Thanks for the advice buddy, its much appreciated. I haven’t had the time to look at the gun closely, but the pump seal seems good but dry. Don’t have pell gun oil but will silicone chamber oil do the job? Anyway, I plan to strip it completely & do a complete overhaul. Since you & BB say its a good gun & I can get familiar with It. My friend also wants it reblued. The barrel seems fine so guess I’ll leave it as it is. I might try to buy it off him if it does well after the repair!!
Errol
SL
Had a GOOD chuckle about how you say to work the pump handle!!
Errol
Yeah, I stole that one from BB! Edith called them Tom-isms.
Pellgun oil is apparently just 20 or 30 weight nondetergent motor oil, so if you have some of that it’s what I would use. The silicone chamber oil might work, but I don’t know if it would swell the seals enough.
I forgot to mention that the 2289 is not currently being made, so it would be a good one to get if your friend will part with it.
Cheers
BB
Thank you Sir. That is good to know. Guess I’ll try to bring it up to spec then.
Errol
Love this blog BB. BTW I
just ordered your book on Amazon, It should bring some memories for
me!
Got it in the mail today along with some AR500 target plates!
I just love the M1’s whatever projectile they shoot.
🙂