Answering GrandpaDan — the biggest blog ever!

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

This report covers:

    • GrandpaDan
    • BB’s response
    • What can you do?
    • Velocity is not at fault
    • GrandpaDan continues
    • Staying with the brand name doesn’t always work
    • Back to GrandpaDan
    • BB responds
    • The solution?
    • GrandpaDan concludes
    • BB sums up
    • Geo791
    • BB’s last word to GrandpaDan

You readers tell me you like it when I write about general topics. So, when I get a question from a reader, I try to answer him in this blog. Today’s report will be the biggest report I’ve ever written, because I’m going to include much of what the new reader has asked as the lead-in to my answers. I’ve also included another reader’s comment from the experimentation he has done to achieve more-or-less what the new reader is asking.

Here we go.

The new reader’s handle is GrandpaDan, and he signed-into the blog this past Monday. Here is his situation.

GrandpaDan

“I’ve been reading and researching airguns for a while. This grows out of frustration with my Gamo Hunter 440 in .22 cal. that I bought about 4 years ago to kill chipmunks. That year we were overrun with the critters. I had been running a trap-and-release program and had trapped 21 chipmunks when the state game folk told me that was illegal. Oh well, I’ll just get a spring gun and shoot the pests.

“Just to allay any concerns, I was not dumping the trapped chipmunks on neighbors. We live in a rural area, about 10 miles from town and are surrounded by active farms and state forests and hunting land. Mine was a humane relocation program for both man and beast.

“More recently squirrels have become a nuisance. I’ve managed to do away with a couple but that has been more by luck than any ability that I have to predict the shot placement. Who knew that airguns would be so finicky? Pellet choice, shooting hold, lots of break-in shooting, and more. WOW! Back to the Pyramyd Air Blog.”

BB’s response

GrandpaDan’s situation is much the same as that of many new airgunners. He buys an airgun to do a job — in this case eradicate chipmunks. He doesn’t want to learn everything there is to know about an airgun, any more than someone buying a claw hammer wants to learn how it was made and the history of claw hammers. He wants to do a certain job that, before buying the airgun, seemed reasonable to him. Now he discovers he has entered a strange new world where he has to learn other things to make his new “tool” do what it is supposed to do.

Because many people come into airguns this way — thinking that the guns are exactly what they imagine, and not realizing there will be things like the artillery hold, pellet head sizes and loopy trajectories to learn. This happens all the time. I jumped on this opportunity because it allows me to address the problem from both sides — before and after it happens.

GrandpaDan — it would have been better for you to have bought a different air rifle than the Gamo 440 Hunter. The 440 is accurate and powerful, but it is very twitchy in its operation. A better rifle would have been something less powerful and easier to shoot accurately. The Diana 34P would have been a good choice and the Air Arms TX200 Mark III would have been the best choice. Here is a rule to go by — if you buy a .22-caliber spring-piston rifle for pest elimination, make certain it shoots at 900 f.p.s. or less. All that’s needed is about 700 f.p.s. with a medium-weight pellet to kill the animals you are after, with squirrels being the toughest.

What can you do?

The best thing for you to do at this point is to de-tune your rifle. Make it shoot slower. That will calm it down and start giving you the accuracy it’s capable of. If you must have all the power it has, then you need to shoot about 10,000 shots to gain the experience you need to be as accurate as you want to be. Yes, the Gamo 440 Hunter is an accurate air rifle, but it takes a huge amount of skill to realize its potential. It’s like playing a Stradivarius — you don’t want to learn on one!

You probably don’t want to take your rifle apart. The easiest way to de-tune your rifle is to squirt the mainspring full of something viscous like Tune in a Tube grease. Enough of that stuff can slow your gun down 150 f.p.s., or so, with the side benefit of it becoming dead-smooth.

You can also slow the gun down with heavy pellets. Try H&N Baracuda Magnums for both accuracy and slower velocities. Remember Baracuda Magnums come in head sizes ranging from 5.50mm to 5.53mm, so try them all to find the most accurate one for your rifle.

Velocity is not at fault

I’m not saying that too much velocity makes an airgun inaccurate, because velocity by itself doesn’t hurt accuracy. But too much power in a spring-piston powerplant makes any gun very sensitive to things most guns aren’t bothered by — things like the hold. That’s why those mega-magnum spring guns are so hard to shoot well.

GrandpaDan continues

“Before I bought my Gamo 440, I had done some research, including reading some (obviously, not enough) of the Pyramid Blogs. I learned that 22 cal was a better choice for a humane kill. I also learned that not just any scope would survive a spring gun recoil. I bought a Leapers UTG airgun rated 3×9 AO scope and mounted it carefully. Since I was buying a Gamo airgun, I bought 5 tins of Gamo Hunter pellets as well. Reading now, those probably were not the best choice, but what did I know?”

Staying with the brand name doesn’t always work

GrandpaDan learned the hard way that staying with the same brand for both the air rifle and the pellets isn’t always foolproof. Sometimes the company that sells the pellets doesn’t make them. Beeman is an example of that. Beeman makes nothing. They buy everything from outside sources. But the higher-end Beeman guns and pellets are made by quality manufacturers like Weihrauch and H&N, so buying a Beeman brand can be a reassuring thing. Just don’t use brand names as your buying habit, because it doesn’t always work that way. GrandpaDan knows that now.

But congrats on the UTG scope. That was the right choice.

Back to GrandpaDan

“At this point I’ve been chasing the point of impact around the target with the scope settings. Shoot 5 shots adjust scope, shoot 5, adjust scope and on, and on… Shooting a fair amount but not with any improvement in repeatable accuracy.

“Recently read a blog by BB that explained the internal mechanics of a scope sight. I think that I may have done what BB described, having backed the settings so far out that the tube and reticle is floating with each shot.

“If that is the condition of my scope, then I need to get “control” of the reticle movement. I’ve read of “centering” a scope sight by backing out both settings out fully, then turning them in fully, while counting the turns, then backing out half way. I think that should stabilize the reticle, though I’m sure that the POA and POI will be far apart. Any thoughts about that?

“Read a series of three articles by BB regarding accuracy in which he pointed out that a “true” barrel is not a given. If I understand the article correctly, a “true” barrel is less rather more likely. So rather than just parking the scope on the gun and assuming that it and the barrel are in correct alignment, I bought a 22 cal laser bore sighter. I am thinking to try to shim the scope to get close to the laser dot as a place to re-start my quest for accuracy. I also bought a tin of the JSB Test pellets.”

BB responds

Okay, let me simplify this. You are chasing the point of impact around by adjusting the scope? That screams just one thing to me — that the scope is adjusted too high in elevation (or too far to the right) and the erector tube is now “floating” on top of the relaxed erector tube return spring. That’s the spring that’s inside the scope that moves the reticle (inside the erector tube) when the knobs on the turret are adjusted. Adjust too high or too far to the right and all the tension will come off that spring. After that, your erector tube will bounce everywhere when the vibration of firing jars it. You will be chasing the point of impact that seems to change at will.

The solution?

If your rifle has open sights, take the scope off and shoot some groups with the open sights. If those groups are small but with a scope mounted they are large, your erector tube is floating. The solution, 99 times out of 100, is to jack up the rear of the scope, either by shimming or with an adjustable scope mount. That allows you to crank the elevation down and get some tension in the erector tube return spring.

If you don’t have open sights on your airgun, crank in a LOT of down elevation — maybe 60-80 clicks — into your scope’s adjustments. Then on a large piece of paper, shoot a group. This groups will be very far below the aim point, but if your groups are also tight you know the problem was caused by a floating erector tube. The scope needs to be shimmed again. Go back and jack up the rear of the scope as described above.

GrandpaDan concludes

“At this point I just want to be able to dispatch marauding squirrels. I think that Gunfun1 said, “I like to plink accurately.” So while my primary goal is not punching super tight groups of holes in paper targets, I think that is the path along which I will need to travel in order to find the kind of accuracy that I want.

“I welcome any suggestions, recommendations from the forum. There are forum contributors who have decades of experience and significant mechanical skills (and workshops). I’m hoping to short-cut some of those years by hitch-hiking on the generous sharing of the experience of others.
Are there things that are must-do to improve the gun other than selling it and buying a much better quality airgun?”
GrandpaDan

BB sums up

GrandpaDan is not interested in becoming a diehard airgunner. He just wants the airgun he owns to work for him. If his refrigerator conked out or got too cold he would not look into taking extension courses in refrigeration. He just wants things to work. I don’t think he is asking too much. But in the world of spring-piston airguns, things are not always straighforward. To GrandpaDan, we airgunners sound like we are telling him to put boiling hot water into his ice cube trays when he wants to make ice!

GrandpaDan wants to cut through all the lore and insider stuff we talk about and just get his air rifle to hit what he aims at. We don’t know whether he is a natural shot or a guy who thinks shooting means spraying and praying, but when we read his comments it becomes clear that he at least has given a lot of thought to what he is doing. He seems to be a careful guy. Enter reader Geo791.

Geo791

Geo791 is another newer reader who has been communicating with several other readers in the comment section of the blog over the past several weeks. He has been immersing himself in the same kind of experiments GrandpaDan has been reading about. Yesterday he posted this huge comment.

“Geo791
May 23, 2017 at 11:39 pm Edit

“B.B

I posted this in response to twotalon’s suggestions yesterday and wondered what your thoughts are also. The JSB Exact 15.89 pellets are fitting loosely in the breech of my RWS34 P .22. If I don’t seat the pellet deep into the breech until it engages the rifling, the pellet will fall out if I de-cock the rifle.

“twotalon,
Yes, the RWS 34P combo came with a Hawke 3-9x50AO IR scope with an RWS one piece lock down mount. I removed the scope today and will do some work on it to make sure it is centered optically in it’s range. Then I will attempt some groups with the open sights.

“Okay, I inserted a JSB 15.89 gr pellet into the breech and then used my cleaning rod to push it on through. For the first 6″ or so, the pellet pushed fairly easily. Then there was very little resistance until it reached within about 1″ to 2″ from the muzzle. Then there was a moderate amount of resistance towards the end of the muzzle, almost like the barrel was choked. Then I viewed the pellet with my jeweler’s eyepiece and there were no perceivable marks on the head from the rifling. The skirt had some slight marks and the skirt was crushed down to the same O.D. as the head.

“I thought the resistance felt strange going from slight resistance, to no resistance, and then back to moderate resistance. It’s like the bore is barrel-shaped (no pun intended) on the inside, meaning it’s larger in the center than on either end. I would say it was on the loose side but not bumpy or rough.

“Next I did a pellet analysis. I use my 1″ micrometer and jeweler’s eyepiece to carefully measure the head and skirt on 20 JSB 15.89 gr pellets. These are the ones that are fitting loosely in the breech.

“The pellets were very consistent. The heads measured 5.49mm to 5.50mm on a 20-piece sample. The skirts measured 5.69mm to 5.72mm on the same sample. Seems like the head size is a little small to me.

“I measured a sample of CPHP [Crosman Premier hollowpoint] pellets 14.3 gr. Heads measured 5.50mm to 5.54mm with one pc at 5.38mm (that’s probably a flyer). Skirts measured 5.61mm to 5.64 mm on (10) pc sample.

“I measured some left over RWS Superdomes I had enough for a (10) pc sample. Head measured 5.51mm on all (10) pcs, very consistent. Skirt measured 5.73mm to 5.74mm on (10) pcs.

“I also noticed that the RWS and the JSB pellets were of a much higher quality. They were more consistent and roundness was better than the Crosman Premier HPs which have a noticeable parting line from the molding process [Editor’s note — Crosman Premiers are swaged cold, not cast. Molding implies a cast pellet.]. I had some domed pellets and they are the same crude looking pellet. I was a quality inspector for forty years at a hydraulic pump division so I know quality.

“After I removed the scope from the rifle I cleaned the barrel again with JB bore paste and a brass brush as per Tom Gaylord’s instructions. I was advised to clean the barrel again after having shot the CPHP pellets through it and then re-season with the JSB pellets. That’s all I had time to accomplish today. Welcome your thoughts on my findings. You have at least lead me down a different path than most of the other posters.

BB’s last word to GrandpaDan

Now you know that you aren’t the only one who is chasing accuracy in his spring-piston air rifle. And Geo791 is shooting the RWS Diana 34P I recommended to you!

Let’s see if we can get your Gamo 440 Hunter to shoot well for you. Gamo makes a good barrel and they also make good airguns. The more powerful ones like your 440 Hunter are very sensitive to shoot, but when you learn what they like they can be wonderful.

One thing I can tell you is that Gamo triggers wear in, not out. After 3,000-4,000 shots your trigger should become very nice and light.

I’m sure our many readers have suggestions for you. One last thing, GrandpaDan. All of us all have partially used tins of pellets that we discovered did not work in our airguns. You may have to sort though some pellets to find what works best. But you probably do the same thing at the grocery store when you buy your food every week. That’s just how life works.

138 thoughts on “Answering GrandpaDan — the biggest blog ever!

  1. B.B.

    I hate to say this, but GrandPa would have been better off with inexpensive PCP. Less to learn and more critters to kill.
    Isn’t 900 fps just about the max that a lead pellet can go accurately? I think 700-800 fps is the sweet spot.

    -Y


    • What Yogi said. A PCP was my first, and continued, thought as I read through this blog. While a PCP does add the complication and cost of a fill system, it eliminates a raftload of variables and issues when you actually squeeze the trigger. I still remember a casual acquaintance showing me his custom made Shimali (sp??) PCP air rifle more than 30 years ago, and am absolutely amazed at what you can buy for under $500 today.


      • But, I can see the logic of BB starting with someone that’s just purchased a springer and the resulting challenges. It’s what WalMart Joe would naturally end up with off the shelf of nearly any retail store.




  2. Seems like Pyramyd should do itself, and it’s customers a favour and have an “airgun as a tool” category.
    The customer would plug in their pest and out would pop an accurate enough rifle that is powerful enough and relatively easy to shoot and relatively easy to mount a scope. It would be paired with a good enough scope and 3 different tins of potentially good hunting ammo. There would be unmistakable instructions upon finding the correct hold.
    It makes me sick that someone as wise as GrandpaDan is having such problems and is an indictment upon both the industry, and us aficionados.


  3. B.B.,

    Fine article. Hopefully we all can get Geo and Grandpa on target. Geo’s pellet push test was interesting, in that the head did not show rifling impressions. {Your thoughts on that? }The “slight to no to moderate” resistance was interesting as well. I have never done a push test, so I am mot qualified to have an opinion on that.

    Chris


    • Chris,

      I have seen that many times. The heads just are not large enough to be engraved. The thinking is the pellet rides on top of the lands, I think. And if it does, all is well. It’s the looseness in the middle of the barrel that’s disconcerting. And I’ve seen that many times, too.

      B.B.



      • RR

        I got hold of one that had a ridge right at the muzzle like you get on a piece of tubing with a pipe cutter. Grabbed the pellet hard right at the muzzle .

        tt


  4. This is a topic more fitting for the weekend in my mind. GrandpaDan may be better served by a Maximus set up for his purposes. Geo791 might well need to find some old Eley Wasps which might provide a better fit to his bore. Their journey reminds of my family’s journey of several years before we finally mastered to shoot breakbarrels consistently and found the particular local pellets that would shoot accurately in them.

    Siraniko


  5. GrandpaDan,

    I am so sorry. You have entered into a world that will either frustrate you to the point that you turn your back on it with disgust or will fascinate you to the point that you jump in wholeheartedly.

    I too started with a Gamo. It was the CFX in .177. I also learned that Gamo pellets are trash. After much testing of various pellets I learned that it preferred the H&N Field Target Trophy in 4.52mm head size. With that particular pellet it would produce phenomenal groups at 25 yards.

    I also learned that it was very hold sensitive. The slightest variation in thumb pressure with my trigger hand would throw my groups to the left or right over an inch.

    So, a short solution for you.

    If shimming does not work, you will need good, sturdy adjustable mounts.

    Try some of the heavier JSB pellets. They usually work pretty good, though some other pellets such as the Baracudas may be better for your particular air rifle.

    Practice to have a repeatable hold. You need to train your mind and body to use the same hold on these hold sensitive air rifles.

    If this all does not work you can either turn your back on this in utter frustration or buy something with less hold sensitivity. Keep in mind that in the UK they are restricted to less than 12 FPE and they do quite well at dispatching bushy tailed tree rats and other varmints.


  6. B.B.

    I think that geo needs to try some H&N FTT in 5.55 . Might be his only chance with a loose bore . They won’t drop into the muzzle on my rimfires . Still might not shoot good anyway, though.

    tt


  7. GrandpaDan,

    A few more thoughts.

    BB’s advice on some Tune in a Tube is spot on. It will greatly help with vibration and if you use enough it will slow things down a bit. Less power is not necessarily bad. “What good is 500+FPE if you can’t hit what you are shooting at?”

    https://www.airgunproshop.com/shop/tune-tube-airgun-lubricant/

    Try various pellets. Just like powder burners, air rifles and pistols prefer different loads.

    Shoot it. Shoot it a lot. Get to know it. Feel it. With time, practice and patience you will find that you will get better with it. Some are suggesting you get a PCP. That is for later. If you can master this sproinger, you will be able to shoot anything.

    Accept reality. With a sproinger, if you are shooting 10 shot groups that are under an inch at 25 yards, that is good. There are some that are capable of doing better than that, such as the TX200 MK3, but you are going to pay for it.


  8. BB

    Fun report! I’m betting both GrandpaDan and Geo become hooked in the fascinating world of airguns, pellet choices and optics. They both demonstrate analytical desire to figure out the problem and solution to it. I do echo Twotalon’s suggestion to Geo that he try H&N FTT in 5.55 mm head diameter. I have two air rifles that prefer them. If they don’t group well, try the popular priced Daisy Precision Max hollow point which may require seating with a ball point pen or pellet seater.

    Decksniper


  9. Grandpa,
    B.B’s advice on the scope and lube in a tube is spot on but I did not hear from you as to what distance you zeroed the scope. I have my scope zeroed at 20yds which gives me the same point of aim and impact out to 35yds but if I am shooting at 10yds then I have to hold over by 1 mil dot because my point of impact will be 1 inch lower than my point of aim.
    Place some targets at 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 & 40 yds and see how your point of impact varies @ the stated distances then write on a note pad your hold under and hold over ( in mil dots) to use when shooting
    Lastly, use only body shots on your pests ( aim for the shoulder. That will be the spot closest to the heart).the 22Cal will cause massive trauma and dispatch the pests humanely. Don’t be taken in by those U Tube videos showing he ad shots that leave pests jumping in obvious distress long after they have been shot. A chipmunk’s brain is a very small kill zone even for a marksman.
    Pete


  10. Very interesting comments. My second air rifle was a .177 Gamo Whisper, tuned before I shot it by the late Bob Werner. It was never accurate for me (traded away after a year or so) but I have seen other similar rifles do well. We all seem to search for the “liked” pellet to tame our rifle, and there is ample evidence that pellet variation affects accuracy. Geo791, a micrometer can theoretically give you a valid diameter measurement, limited to just two points on the surface of a spheroid, and affected by the closure of your spindle. If you can get repeatable measurements, you must be very skilled. I do think that some rifles have barrels that simply can’t produce the 1-2 MOA we all want. In my early airgun adventures, the acquisition of a CZ 634 .177 was a revelation. The third rifle for me, and it was the first one that could produce the accuracy I wanted. Pellet selection did have an effect, but not as much as the gun change. With my highly tuned (and custom barrel equipped) Marauder, the pellet size does affect the accuracy in somewhat predictable manner. It is a one MOA rifle off a rest at 40 yds. But I can attest, there are tins of pellets (even name brands) that will make shooters think their rifle has a problem, when the lack of consistency is the cause of open shot patterns.


    • Yes, I was a quality inspector for Parker Hannifin Hydraulics division for 40 years. Many of the parts had tolerances of +/- .0001″. I tested myself one time by measuring gage blocks in .0001″ increments without looking at the sizes. I was able to measure everyone within .0001″ using just my 1″ micrometer with a .0001″ vernier scale on the barrel. It’s all about the feel and having a light touch.

      Yeah, the pellet heads and skirts are difficult to measure with a micrometer. I used a jeweler’s eyepiece and viewed the pellet as I measured it. I rotated the pellet to check for roundness and took the largest measurement. Using the eyepiece I could visually see the very slight rub marks from the mic. The skirts are ever more difficult to measure because they are easily deformed by the mic pressure. But as you can see from my measurements of the RWS Superdomes, I was able to measure the skirts within .01mm (.0004″). The skirts on the superdomes are much heavier and stiffer than the JSBs, which are very thin and flexible. I believe that is the reason the JSBs are so loose in my barrel. There is not enough material to engage the rifling and the skirt is tappered so it’s only grabbing the edge of the skirt slightly.


      • Geo791,

        The soft, flexible skirts on the JSBs will flare out into the rifling when they are fired.

        I sort some of my pellets (with a PelletGage) for special use (sighting in and testing).

        Had a tin that had an unusual amount of damaged skirts (it must have been dropped) so I segregated those pellets figuring that I would use them for seasoning the barrel or casual plinking. Turned out that those pellets were fine after all. Guess that the skirts were blown back into shape and all was good to go.

        Hank


      • Geo
        Interesting our machines at work used them valves at certain time frames.

        I could tell you some interesting story’s about what those valves encounter out in the feild. Crazy things happen when company’s don’t keep the hydraulic systems clean.


  11. Grandpa Dan,

    I’ve looked through the comments and BB;s blog above and did not see any discussion of the “artillery” hold. Apologies if you’ve already read up on this and understand it but with spring/piston air rifles, it’s almost a mandatory item in order to obtain repeatability in POA vs. POI. That and finding the “sweet” pellet for your rifle. Here is a link to a group of articles written over the years by BB (Tom Gaylord). This should make things a bit easier as everything you need to understand about shooting springers accurately, is here: https://www.pyramydair.com/articles. The artillery hold article is the 18th article down.

    On the other hand, if you happen to be near Forsyth County here in GA, I’d be glad to help eradicate those furry rats 🙂

    Fred in GA


    • Not sure about GrandpaDan, but I have reviewed Mr. Gaylord’s video on how to use the artillery hold several times to get a good understanding of the how and why. But yes, that seems to be a prerequisite to being able to shoot a springer accurately. It seems difficult to separate the hold, the pellet, and other variables out from each other. If I could just eliminate one of the variables and then work on one at a time, maybe I could get some traction.



        • I removed my Hawke 3-9x50AO scope to try using the open sights. Wow! I have my target set at 25 yards. It is a 1/2″ grid pattern with a 1/2″ bullseye. The front bead eclipsed the bull totally. I kept moving the target back and at 10 yards I had to use a magic marker to make the bull a 1″ square to even see it then. I shot about 25 JSBs and they scattered like a shotgun. Two of the pellets when shot sounded like a dry fire…not good. I had just re-cleaned the barrel with JB bore paste so maybe that would explain the scattering of the pellets. But my tired eyes are definitely not good enough to shoot with open sights anymore. The front bead still totally covers the 1″ bull at 10 yards. I used the 6 o’clock hold but the results were as I described. Guess I will go back and remount my scope and make sure it centered this time and start over again. Maybe I have got a lemon rws34 I am thinking.


          • Geo791,

            That’s why you want to use a 6 o’clock hold! Rest the bull ON TOP of the front sight bead, so the bead touches the bull at 6 o’clock. Then you can aim precisely. This is how you have to shoot. Yes it is hard, bit it’s the only way.

            Please don’t tell me about tired eyes! I know what a pain it can be, but learn to trust those open sights. They won’t fail you. Please don’t mount your scope before you can shoot a group with open sights.

            B.B.


  12. Off subject:
    Assuming a person can find one, what is the approximate value of a Sheridan EB20 or the E9A20? I have decided that I “need” one. Does this disease ever end?


  13. B.B.,

    B.B.’s advice regarding Tune-in-a-Tube in the 440 is excellent advice if Grandpa Dan is reluctant to move on from the Gamo for budget reasons. But if a bit more expense and getting rid of the Gamo is an option, then I am completely with those above who suggest a budget PCP.

    I’m probably the least PCP-loving reader here, but for “plug-and-play” pest control, one of the 2000 psi single shots (i.e. not the Wildfire) and a handpump is the way to go. We know the Maximus is accurate. One of those plus hand pump plus scope comes down to roughly $450. An Umarex Chief (if it turns out to be as accurate as the Maximus) would be even better at $50 less. Either of those two would do it. No hold sensitivity, easy on the scope, and an easy and short learning curve.

    Michael


  14. “One last thing, GrandpaDan. All of us all have partially used tins of pellets that we discovered did not work in our airguns. You may have to sort though some pellets to find what works best. But you probably do the same thing at the grocery store when you buy your food every week. That’s just how life works.”

    No, life does not have to work like that. I don’t buy bulk bags of vegetables at the store for that reason, I prefer to pick through the pile to find the ones that aren’t rotten. And I don’t buy anything at the bulk warehouse store before having tried it out in smaller sizes from some other source first.

    Nor should you have to buy a full tin of 250 or 500 pellets, just to be able to shoot 20 or 50 and figure out if it works in your gun. So don’t. Go online to ebay and search for airgun pellet samples, or just search for precision air sports – this is an ebay seller who has bought all those tins, and will sell you a sample of 25 of them for a moderate price of a buck or two – packaged snugly in old 35mm film canisters and shipped cheaply through the US mail. Then, when you have the pellet, or pellets, that you want to buy a bunch of, go back to Pyramid Air and get 4 tins (buy 4 get one free deal, best deal going) of them and go shoot.


  15. GrandpaDan,

    As you have discovered, airgunning can be a challenging hobby. By your approach, I think that if you were inclined to get into airgun shooting that you would do well (hope you chose to).

    If you have no interest in airguns other than pest control around the house then I suggest that the simplest solution would be to sell the Gamo (keep your scope) and buy a quality springer that is calmer to shoot. A good one will last forever with just minimal maintenance.

    .22 caliber is better for hunting but for close range work I do most of my pesting with a .177 caliber scope sighted FWB300 target rifle. It is a hefty rifle that is very precise, stable and calm. The power is adequate for squirrels out to 20 yards. You would have to search for one but it seems that there are deals to be had.

    Good luck.

    Hank


    • Hank
      I have a FWB 300s on the way now as we speak.

      It will be like a long lost puppy dog comming home. I use to own it.

      And it’s the hot rodded one with the o ring instead of the cast iron ring. And it has a aftermarket single spring.

      Way smooth​ shooting gun but is making good velocity. Hmm that falls in that type of a action catagory. Yep that good ole slide rail anti recoil system.

      Makes for a very accurate springer. Look at the Diana 54 Air Kings. I had two of them. They are magnum powered springers but shoot as smooth as butter.

      There are other springer and magnum springers out there that do shoot accurately.


      • Gunfun1, my ol’ buddy, my ol’ pal, have you been holding back on me, perhaps? ;^D

        I perk up at all mentions of FWB 300 AND 150 target rifles. I have one of each.

        First, just to get it out of the way, there is a fellow online (quite google-able) who has a few of these with many trophy photos of squirrels he has put down with ear-canal shots. I think he might even put the shot directly on the tympanic membrane of his game. Like mine, I recall his FWBs are rebuilt with the excellent synthetic blue piston seals typically found on these gorgeous old girls. They usually get them up to the mid-600 fps range, only a little hot-rodding.

        You, however, seem to have some info I lack but would very much like to have. What is the buzz with this FWB hot rod mod talk? Please, dish.

        Michael


        • Michael
          First off you know how they say we go through a change every 7 years. Well I think it’s that time for me right now.

          I’m not going to say just yet what plans I have in the works. And if I did right now people would surely say I’m crazy. 😉
          But you know I just got a HW30s and my Wild fire. Which people will be surprised about when I break out the rest of my new plan when my parts come from Crosman for it tomorrow. And I’m betting your thinking power aren’t you. Knowing me right. But again remember what guns I said I just got. I will say more as time goes on the Wild fire and my change of the gaurds I’ll call it.

          But I will say this also. I will be shooting more firearms again from time to time. But still mostly air guns.

          But on to what you asked. Yes I’m getting one of my old 300’s back that I got from RidgeRunner some time back. (not from RidgeRunner though this time) I got two of them from him. One I left as it came from the factory. The other I did alot of trying different things to get velocity up but still keep it as a real accurate gun but be used out at farther distances. To get to the point. Alot of experimenting with different set ups.

          Bottom line. A aftermarket Marconi single spring and of all things a just right size o-ring in the ring groove instead of the cast iron ring for the piston to cylinder wall seal. The gun turned into a very consistent grouping gun at 50 yards with more velocity and still smooth shooting characteristics. Well actually out past 50 yards even. And who said the FWB 300’s where suppose to be 10 meter guns. Somebody forgot to tell that 300 that. Whoops maybe that was me. 🙂


  16. Why in the world is it illegal to trap and relocate the animals? I hate to say it, but I wonder if it might be better to invest in a better gun rather than struggling with a marginal one. I enjoy springers for skill-building, but if I wanted to take something out, I would use a pcp.

    I’ve generally had good luck with UTG scopes, but something weird is starting to happen. My BugBuster on my IZH 61 is starting to fog up. I wouldn’t make much of this except the same thing happened to the UTG scope on my B30. Both guns are interesting test cases in that all I do is shoot them in my indoor 5 yard range. Otherwise, they are in the case without any bumps and bangs. It would appear that the sheer repetitive impact is wearing them out and introducing a leak which causes the nitrogen inside to escape. The IZH 61 must have over 100,000 shots now. The B30 had much fewer. But there were thousands, maybe tens of thousands of shots on it, and it is much more powerful. At least UTG is outstanding in honoring their lifetime guarantee.

    Matt61


  17. After having a bunch of different air guns. And with different powerplants. And trying bunches of different pellets and sizes in all the .177, .22 and .25 calibers. And different scopes and red dot sights. You start learning how the different guns act.

    I say they all got their own unique personality. You got to listen to them. Some need held different ways and like different pellets. And don’t think just because you got a say Walther LGU and another guy has one in the same caliber, same scope and same pellet. Each gun will more than likely shoot a little different.

    And saying that. Everybody can’t produce exactly the same hold another person is doing. Matter of fact everybody’s eye sight is different.

    So alot of variables right there. And speaking of variables. Throw in weather conditions and wind then see what it does to your shooting.

    There’s just so many things involved it’s really impossible to say some kind of way to hold a gun or what pellets needed.

    The best I can say is just start experimenting with different holds and pellets. Even try adjusting your scope different ways. And some things can be applied to other guns. But you just never know.

    The best thing is to write notes on your targets with all kind of information. When I started getting back heavy into air guns I documented everything I did. It was pretty eye opening when I would go back and compare my targets and notes from when I got the gun. And as I progressed with the gun over time.

    Every air gun I have got has taken time to get the results I was after. It no kind of way happened overnight.

    You just got to exsperiance that gun. And notice I didn’t say from prior experience. Although it all helps one way or another. Just keep shooting and practicing and try different things. See what works for how you shoot. Not someone else’s style.


  18. GrandpaDan

    “Caveat Emptor”… Let the buyer beware !

    There are so many options to consider when purchasing an airgun, power source, power range, caliber, design, sighting device and of course price. I would say that a new air gunner making his first purchase would have a slim chance in getting one that works great for his intended use and just because a rifle is called a “Hunter” does not automatically make it accurate. Then there is the pellet option to choose from without much knowledge of the performance of each one…in his gun.
    Most of us know the term hunter is used more to describe it’s power range. So with that in mind we can put some of the blame on the manufactures for ‘Fuzzy’ advertising like calling it a “Hunter” leading one to believe that’s what it does best. Notice they don’t call it an “Accurate Hunter”

    I always figured break barrels have the rear sight on the barrel because of the way it operates making the rifle inherently inaccurate to some extent depending on the quality of manufacturing. Barrel droop for an example.

    We know there are intended use classifications as well that a novice may not be aware of. A plinker, target shooter, game hunter and all round fun guns or for general use. You would need to know which category your airgun would fall into.

    Adding a sighting device like a scope opens the door to another word of choice and compromise that requires a lot of investigation to achieve your goal including gun hold.
    Without the help of BBs blog, and others as well, the average airgunner is left to a life of trial and error with a lot of disappointment. Some get lucky, some don’t.

    Unless you can afford a top of the line airgun that has very predictable results for its intended use you will have to compromise and make the most of what you can afford. It can be challenging and fun or frustrating. I believe the bloggers here enjoy the challenging and fun way and enjoy sharing what they have learned. I have a few top of the line rifles so I don’t get into improving or modifying much. I’m a pretty content collector, but this blog has certainly educated me about airguns.

    Looks like you jumped in with both feet. Hope you can make the most of your rifle but I think the airgun bug has bit you and a PCP will eventually be in your hands and a smile on your face 🙂
    I just picked up on something I never considered myself, irregular barrel diameter and rifling. I knew some were better than others but not to the point that some could be considered defective or at least useless with some pellets.
    Bob M


  19. Hunt down a Diana 48 in. 25 or 22 if you can’t find 25, and a tin of H&N hollow points, 24ft/lb in 25, and as calm as a Hindu cow, will apply some serious squirrel thwack


  20. I can’t stick twitchy, difficult springers, if I’m hunting I might have a foot in a brook, one on a slimy bank and slightly extending myself to see through the Bracken, if the gun needs some sort of clever King Fu to shoot straight it’s straight on Craigslist



    • Chris U
      I made a reply just a bit ago on the blog to GrandpaDan where BB pulled GrandpaDan’s comments from for today’s blog. Also to Geo791 which was commenting on the same blog GrandpaDan’s​ comment was on.

      Hopefully they see it and chime in here today.


      • Yup, thanks for the heads up. I have read through the blog and all of the comments posted as well. Not too many posters commented on my findings regarding the barrel geometry (normal, not normal) or my pellet size measurements though. B.B. included my posting but he didn’t comment much about it.


        • Geo

          I really think you are shooting pellets that are too small for the bore . I have one rifle that leaves small flat spots on the pellet heads from the rifling . Have to look close to see them .
          My other rifles bite into the pellets good .

          Pellets that fit snug can allow the power plant to build a better pressure curve . The whole thing interacts . The best pellet for getting the most power (efficiency) out of the power plant is not always the most accurate .

          Too bad those pellet sampler packs don’t have very many pellets in them .
          I hate buying whole tins of pellets to find that they don’t fit or shoot well , but at least I have enough to figure that much out .

          tt



  21. GrampaDan,

    I got into this hobby much as you did – I bought an air gun to do a job, and it did not work well at it. In my case it was a .22 caliber Crosman Quest. I spent a lot of time and even money trying to get it to work for me. Eventually I moved on.

    I already had a Crosman 1322 pump pistol that I had owned for many years, but needed more power for a ground hog problem. Long story short – I have since made airgunning one of my major hobbies, and am fully invested in PCPs with several to select from, as well as few springers and multipumps.

    As others have a suggested, a budget PCP would be a great way to go. But you really should reflect on what you want to do here – is this truly just a need for a tool or are you willing to make it more of a hobby.

    If what you want is a tool, I would recommend that you sell the Gamo and get a multipump like the Benjamin 392. It will have all the power you need and be as easy to shoot as any PCP set up but cost much less. Of course you have to pump between shots, but there is a cost for everything (the PCP route takes that problem away for a good bit more money). But you will have a wonderful tool for years to come a low cost of entry.

    If you want to stay with a springer (and I do admit that “one pump / one shot” is a wonderful thing) and are willing to put a bit more money into the gun, then I have to recommend the HW-30S. The power is more than enough for chipmunks and it is dead accurate and very easy to shoot. I love mine – in fact, I call it my chipmunk gun because that is what I use it for (as well as general shooting for fun). It will cost you more, but again you will have a wonderful gun that does what you want reliably for many years.

    I wish you the best with whatever you decide to do.

    One last comment for everyone else on accuracy and speed of pellets: I used to believe that excess speed kills accuracy, and I even thought BB was just plain wrong in his blog series where he found it did not matter – I figured it was a fluke. But I have since bought a .22 Daystate Air Ranger that is every bit the fluke too. It is dead accurate however I set it up to shoot – right now I have it shooting JSB 18.1 grain pellets at a bit over 1020 fps, and it has no problem putting 10 pellets into a half inch ctc group at 50 yards, shooting pellets straight from the tin. And it is so easy to shoot to – an absolutely wonderful gun.

    AlanMcD


    • AlanMcD
      Amen on the HW30s. Mine is absolutely fabulous. The one I just got was like it was made for me and just sitting there in it’s box patiently waiting for me to get it.

      And it’s one of the guns that I can shoot open sight good. Which I have not been able to do good for some time. I’m tell’n ya my HW30s has got some magic happening. I’m love’n it for sure.



      • Chris U
        Why would that not be possible. I think there is misconceptions of what can happen with speed of a projectile.

        From what I have seen is shot cycle and hold make a difference. Not as much as speed of the projectile.


        • GF1,

          That was a compliment and nothing more. As for speed,.. I’ll take all I can get! 🙂

          “no problem, 50 yards, 10 shot, .5″ CTC, straight from tin”,….. yea,.. I would take that.

          I did think that my 30 shots in 1″ at 50 yards with the .22 Maximus was pretty good though,… for me at least!


          • Chris U
            What I meant by my response is that the shot cycle of the gun and how you hold it. Like the thumb pressure with the trigger hand and such along with how well your able to keep your sights on the aim point. I believe that is more important than velocity. But velocity is important depending on distance your shooting at and what type of target your shooting at. Be it paper or a critter.

            And saying that. A 1″ group at 50 yards is very respectful at 50 yards. To say it another way that’s pretty well a gaurenteed hit on a starling or a golf ball sized target. Maybe even a bottle cap.

            So yes your 1″groups at 50 yards is good. There you feel better now. 🙂 😉


            • GF1,

              🙂 and a 😉 with a another 🙂 for good measure.

              Like I have said before,.. your results are well earned as you have certainly shot/ and still do,… a bunch!


              • Chris U
                Trust me. For the longest time I drove myself crazy to find the ultimate accuracy in the guns I got.

                I pretty well got a idea now what I should expect out of different types of air guns. And I’ll say it again. I drove myself crazy getting there.

                Now it’s time to just do some fun shooting. Plinking to be exact.

                What I been getting serious about though the last 3 or so months is shooting standing up. And with no support to hold the gun up. I use to be very good at that when I was a kid and with open sights at that.

                I have been very lazy shooting for a long time now. You know. Bench resting and bi-pods. So now I’m disciplining myself to shoot unsupported whatever chance I get. And it is comming back to me. I have been improving.

                Saying that. Have you tryed doing any standing unsupported shooting?


                • GF1,

                  Very little on the unsupported. The TX, LGU and M-Rod are all to heavy, not that is could not be done with some good/fit upper body strength. The Maximus is one I will try it with though. My accuracy would surely suffer greatly. Like you, I have been spoiled with rests and bi-pods. As for any 3 position,.. my knees would not do well with kneeling and as for prone,.. I would look like a Moose on roller skates trying to get back up. 🙂


                  • Chris U
                    The Maximus would be excellent for standing and shooting unsupported.

                    But remember if your using a scope it’s going to amplify your shake. Turn your magnification way down. Like 3 power. And start out simple with a 2 litre plastic soda bottle at say 25 yards. Once you start hitting it every shot get smaller with a 12 oz. can. Once you can hit the 12 oz. can pretty much every shot put the 2 litre bottle at 35 or 40 yards. Same thing shoot at it at that distance till you can hit it. Then move the 12 oz. can out and shoot.

                    I bet you will surprise yourself how well you will do after just a short time doing it. Oh and don’t try for groups yet. That’s hard to do standing and unsupported. There is technique that needs to start being applied to do good when shooting groups that way.

                    Let me know if you try it. Interested in what you think.


    • The Benjamin 392 is a good recommendation, but GrandpaDan will run into new challenges, unless he embraces open sights (as also recommended by others in this thread) and he’ll probably need to clean the paint out of the 392 muzzle, which is a fairly simple task. Nearly all the recent 39x rifles have paint where it doesn’t belong! For pest control within 20 yards, I like the 392. For pest control from 20 to 30 yards, I’ll reach for my 397, because it’s significantly more accurate than my 392 (which 397s tend to be, I think). The 397s also tend to be forgiving of pellet choice, unlike recent 392s, which tend to be very pellet picky. These conclusions are based on my experiences with my two guns and also the experiences others posting online in forums where the subject of 39x pumpers is often discussed.

      Actually, I’ve used my 397 for very close range pest control too (inside its zero where the low sight height is very handy for flat shooting trajectories). Before we sold our home of 20 years last summer, we were invaded by wood rats like never before. The entire neighborhood had them. We were trying to get the house on the market and so my daughter and I embarked on a lengthy program of live trap and release into a very large and forested park nearby (but not too nearby). Unfortunately, the last wood rat was too smart for a live trap. I spent three weeks trying to coax it into a live trap–even first trying to acclimate it to just barely entering a disabled trap to dine, as I’d done with all its brethren, but this last surviving genius rat would not even take the bait one inch inside the door. After pulling the dishwasher from under the kitchen counter to replace a chewed-up and leaking water line for the second time, I told my wife that I’d leave my 397 pumped up at night for a shot on the sucker. She thought I was crazy. Well about one week later I shot that rat in the head in our kitchen with no over penetration and no damage to anything but the deal rat. I credit my 397 with the sale of our house and it made my wife a believer in air rifles too! I would have never been able to trap that last one.

      -Cal


      • Cal
        I had a 392 as a kid. No scope either. Open sights. I loved that gun when I was a kid.

        Me and my buddies had 760’s and 880’s and such. I was the first one to get a serious pumper as my buddies called the Benji 392.

        It was definitely a thumper. I should get one again just to have for old times sake.


        • Get one while you can, Gunfun1! I don’t know how much longer it will be around. Sadly, the 39x design and manufacturing methods are a throwback to another age. Crosman recently replaced the stamped markings and safety warnings with painted text, which is both good and bad. Bad because the markings are much more ugly but good because they were sometimes stamped too deeply, dimpling the pump tube and making it difficult to remove the valve for service. The only plastic parts on the gun are still the buttstock pad and the tiny safety button.

          I tried dozens and dozens of 22 cal. pellets in my 392, including all three head sizes of H&N FTT and Barracudas. Surprisingly, the larger head sizes were not the the most accurate of the H&Ns in the 392s somewhat oversize bore, which I slugged and measured (very shallow rifling). The best pellet for me is the 18.13 gr. JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy, but the light RS had moments of greatness, punctuated by occasional fliers. Average velocity for the Jumbo Heavy is 540 fps with 8 pumps, which provides an adequately flat trajectory out to 25 yards. 25 yards is a good maximum range to keep my shots within a quarter size hole. My 392 likes maximum pumps (and maybe even an extra one too 😉 with the Jumbo Heavy, which probably makes it a good candidate for a Steroid conversion!


          • Cal
            Yep I should really get one.

            I know when I was a 12 year old it took two hands to pump with the butt of the gun under one arm. Haven’t shot one as a adult. I wonder how hard they are to cock now.


            • I don’t find them to be hard to pump, because a modest amount of pumping is spaced out between each shot. It’s not like when I take 200 shots from my TalonP and then top the SCUBA back up with my Hill pump! (The nearest commercial fill is almost a two-hour drive from where I live.) Then, depending on air temperature, I’m pumping 50 to 100 strokes over many session (to provide time for both pump cooling and my own physical recovery) for a total of 700 to 800 cycles. You can do a simple Sheridan-inspired 392 valve mod that makes the easy first pump or two even easier. Of course you can get more bang per pump buck with a Steroid conversion or, alternatively, ACP (air conserving pumper) mods. The optional longer pump arm on the Steroid can improve leverage too, for shooters with sufficiently long arm reach. B.B. is lucky to have the pump-assist conversion, which is no longer available, of course. Technique is important too. I grasp the barrel and pump tube directly abeam the end of the pump arm (not at the stock grip wrist) with one hand and pump and pump the gun in front of my chest. I think that’s how must people do it.


  22. After I wrote my last entry above I opened my kitchen window and made a hungry Condor very happy with my FX Independence at about 50 yards. He had a choice of three meals and did not even flinch when the forth flopped over.


  23. I got to say something here real quick.

    Why is everyone suggesting to get a PCP if they want accuracy.

    I had some very accurate easy to shoot spring guns. And they ranged from 600 fps guns up to 1100 fps guns. It depends​ on the type of action it is for the fps it’s shooting.


  24. And since this blog got me going. I was trying to refrain from saying this. And it’s not a bad thing I’m saying but a good thing if you get what I’m saying.

    First is I shot airguns and firearms on the farm growing up as a kid. Did all the fun stuff us kids do. Well because we were kids. Then got into cars when I got my license. Muscle cars to be exact many many moons ago. Soo cars was it. I hunted still with Firearms. But here and there with air guns.

    Well then came the time when I found Pyramyd Air. I think that happened cause I was looking for a way to pest at a house I got sort of in the country. Not the one I live at now.

    So guess what I got. A .177 Gamo Whisper. And here’s where I say good things about the Whisper. It was actually some what accurate. Heck I was use to shooting shot guns at the time I got the Whisper. The trigger felt different and it did have a fairly good kick to it. So no big deal. It did ok for getting the pest around the house where I couldn’t shoot the firearms without being heard by someone. But the dang thing failed it just ate itself up. Cocking arms, seal and such. I did lube the cocking arms and pivots and such. It just couldn’t take it.

    But I guess what I’m saying​ is there is always a proper tool for the job. And usually you pay for something that’s worth while. But there are bargain guns that shoot well. If you want a good shooting gun try some of the Crosman pump pistols. They can be made into some nice easy shooting accurate rifles. Look at the Crosman custom gun shop. You’ll find the guns I’m talking about I’d you don’t want to build one yourself.

    Anyway I’ll stop. I can go on and on about the different air gun adventures I have had with different guns. But what I can say out of all of it is I had fun taking the air gun journey and learning different air guns.

    Get one and go is what I say. Have fun with it. And see the benefits that happen. I think you’ll be happy if you do.


  25. GrandpaDan and Geo

    I have said this before but you are new to BB’s blog I believe. My Weihrauch HW30s is as accurate as any airgun under $500 that I am aware of at 10 meters which is what I do. I would expect it to be accurate within humane ranges for taking small predators.

    Decksniper


    • Decksniper
      I been wanting a HW30s for a long time. I had a HW50s probably close to 5 years ago.

      All I can say is the 30 is a dream in many ways.

      And I’m not going to say anything more about all the pests that got aquainted to my 30 recently. Other than they didn’t have much to say after they met it if you know what I mean.


      • Gunfun1

        I have to ask how you would compare the accuracy of your new HW30s to the HW50s you no longer have. I can’t go beyond 30 yards due to space but I have a hankering for the “50”.

        Decksniper


        • Decksniper
          I have shot the 30 only open sights. I’m really trying hard to not put a scope on it. But from what I can tell with the results I’m getting I believe it is more accurate. That or I’m a better shooter now than back then from all the shooting I do everyday.

          I have steel spinners from 15 yards out to 50 yards that I leave out in my yard always. They never get moved they are always in the same place. So got my holds pretty well figured out for the 30 already. They are 1″ up close out at around 25 yards those are 1-1/2″ and out to 50 they are 1-3/4″. I seriously been able to hit them every shot. And that’s just setting my for arm on my shooting table. No bag. And standing unsupported I can hit pretty well every shot out to 35 yards. Out at 50 I have a little more trouble. But I can hit probably 3 out of 5 shots. And I have been practicing standing unsupported shooting now for probably about​ 4 months now. I really want to get back to shooting be that way. That’s how we did it when I was a kid.

          So I would say yes it’s a very accurate gun. And probably more so than the 50 the best I can tell.


          • Gunfun1

            Thanks for replying. You would be quite a handfull for me shooting unsupported. My joy for many years is trying to extract the best possible accuracy from each gun I own whether firearms or airguns. Figuring out the best way to hold each one is part of the fun. If a gun can out shoot me I have to mount a serious diopter peep and later a scope if that gets tighter groups. An exception to this are antique firearms too valuable to alter.

            Enjoy your new HW30s. You can easily put a scope on it just to see what it can do. Also a rear diopter peep goes well with the globe front sight inserts.

            Decksniper


            • Decksniper
              Knowing me. If I put a scope on the 30 just to see how it does it will end up staying on it.

              I want to try my best to keep it a open sight gun. I use to be very good as a kid shooting with open sights. So that’s my plan is to keep it that way and make myself keep shooting it that way. And hopefully get better or at least stay where I’m at now shooting it. I’m actually surprised I can shoot it as well as I do with it.

              Really I have to keep forcing myself to stay with it and keep shooting open sights. That’s what I want to keep doing I hope if my eyes will hold up with age.


  26. When I mentioned getting a top of the line airgun before I was not totally talking about PCPs. There is no doubt about the fact that there are excellent springers out there, and the industry, through technology, is trying hard to make them shoot like a PCP …. at a much lower affordable price.
    Although the price for a high end springer and a low end PCP is getting pretty close the filling cost will have to be considered too. If you can get an airgun that fills your need at an affordable price, more power to you !

    I think PCPs are much ‘easier’ to shoot, not including the filling procedure, I managed to take out three ground squirrels in the time it would take to cock and load a springer. Using a smooth side lever cocking device with a mag is sinfully easy and quick and for me, the only way to go for pest control. A semi auto may beat that.


    • Bob M
      My modded .25 Marauder has no mercy on pests. By far the easiest way to hit something at even longer distances and still have knock down power. And yes it kicks more than my rimfire gun shooting long rifle rounds. And it’s still a very accurate air gun.


  27. Oh My! So much good information and most excellent suggestions. Like drinking from a fire hose. Not unhappy at all, just a lot to consider.

    I’m not calling it quits by any means. I do want to be successful at “pesting.”

    I also want to introduce our oldest and closest Grandson to shooting as well. We have nine Grandchildren. They are scattered across the nation, from CT to CA. One of the activities when they visit is shooting BB guns.

    I need to reduce the frustration factor arount more powerful airguns by sorting out the non-essentials before inviting him to participate. I did buy him a Red Ryder BB gun two years ago and we’ve been working on Range Discipline when he visits.

    I’ve been sighting at 15 yards using the Gamo Pellets. I opened the sample tin of 4 weights of JSB pellets Tuesday. Just from a cursory inspection, they are far better than the Gamo pellets. I’ve been getting closer to a “group” with the Gamo pellets. Shot about 150 pellets on Tuesday. The first “groups” you could cover with a dollar bill. Gradually seemed to improve with smaller and smaller groups. Nothing stellar but better.

    I do have to knock together a shooting bench and a couple of rests. My setup on Tuesday was two lawn chairs and a pillow. Set one chair behind the other with a pillow on the back of the front chair supporting the gun. Even with the scope set at 9x there was a LOT of movement of the cross hairs over and around the bulls-eye. Learning the trigger may have been some of what contributed to smaller groups.

    Regarding the Artillery Hold, I’m going to try resting the gun on a pad of the large size bubble packaging wrap. I wonder whether that might successfully mimic the flexibility of a human hand.

    I tried two weights of the JSB pellets at the end of my practice time. The Gamo pellets are 15.3 grains. The first set were the JSP Diablo Exact at 18.1 grains and hit the target about 1″ below the area that the Gamo pellets were grouping. Hmmm. Lets try the JSB Match Diabolo Exact Jumbo Monster, 5.52mm head, 25.4 grains. That set hit at the very top of the target, a good three inches above the POI of the 18.1 grain pellet. Heavier and it hits higher??? Not logical Mr Spock.

    Much to learn. BB, I will try Tune in a Tube or similar. I recall that you mentioned that an outside gear grease(?) is about the same thing. I grew up around farm machinery and I’m sure that I’ve used that on equipment. I wonder whether wheel-bearing grease would work. I’ve repacked wheel bearings on 30s to 50s cars that did not have boots protecting wheel bearings so the grease had to be very viscous. I have a couple of tubs of that on a shelf in my basement garage.

    I’m not adverse to taking the gun apart. I will have to make some jigs and what ever to facilitate the process. What are you thinking that would require disassembly? De-tuning sounds like an excellent direction to take.

    Mama just said that she’s heading for bed, so it’s time for me to head in.



    • I just re-read your comment. I think the large bubble, bubble wrap would be too much. 1 layer of smaller bubble wrap would be more suited in my opinion. You want stability up front too. A folded or rolled wash cloth? A lot of people use shooting bags too. I never have, but would like to try. They will use them front and rear to remove as much of the human factor as possible. Having that rear supported in some fashion will remove a lot of movement and will give you a better idea of the gun’s potential. Shouldered as well, just not too tight.


      • Chris,

        The “quickie” shooting bag that I made works well enough that I haven’t bothered buying a commercial one.

        Made it out of two freezer-weight zip-loc bags of corn (you could use white peas) sewn into a leg cut off of an old pair of jeans and supported with a large elastic.

        The jean leg was sewn to create two compartments, the bags of corn were put in (and after some tuning of the volume of corn) were sewn in. The elastic holds to two compartments together to make a base and the rest flares to make a “Y” to support the rifle.

        I sit the shooting bag on a piece of 6×6 to bring it up the a comfortable height and use a second bag under the butt of the rifle to keep everything stable.

        Works quite well. I just have to remember not to leave it unattended on the shooting bench or the critters might get after the corn 🙂

        Hank


        • Hi Hank,

          I went through several variations at the start. 3# bags of rice work pretty well in the soft side 6 pack coolers with the hard insert removed. I used quart bags in the top compartment. In the end, I ended up with what I have which is a hard rest topped with some foam gasket for “give”. The rear rest varies,… but is essentially pellet cans, with 1/8″ rubber shims and some 1/8″ – 1/4″ gasket for rear “give”. Pressing down lightly on the rear gasket will adjust POI nice after the rubber shims are added to get it close. The rear is placed under the pistol grip. The front never changes. Works very good for me. I did not care for the varying movement of the bags.


    • GrandpaDan
      Try turning your scope magnification down to 4 power and see what happens. You won’t notice as much shake. If you do still that means you do need to work on you holding the gun more steady for each shot.

      Oh by the way I grew up on the farm pesting with multi-pump air guns as a kid. I still do pest for two local cities from time to time. And multi-pump is very good pesting tool. You gave the option to pump up for the power you need. Plus they shoot very smooth. Maybe you should think about one of those.


    • Nice to hear more from you!

      The real explanation of why the heavier pellet is hitting higher is a great endorsement of the artillery hold: the reason that pellet hit higher was not due to ballistics, but due to the harmonics of the barrel.

      In spring guns, the gun is vibrating all over the place before the pellet even moves in the barrel, let alone before it leaves the barrel. The heavier pellet is in the barrel longer, and thus the gun has moved to a different position in space (relative to the lighter pellet) as it exits the barrel. bottom line, ever pellet can have a very different POI with a powerful spring gun – especially if the gun is light (as that leads to more movement),

      This is the real goal of the artillery hold – to provide the most repeatable conditions for the gun as it moves around during the shot cycle.


      • Alan
        Ain’t it hat the he truth on barrel harmonics with the magnum type springers.

        Pellet weight does make a difference like you mentioned. But also add in pellet fit to the barrel. The resistance of the fit will slow down or speed up the pellet in the barrel. So it all comes into play one way or another.


        • Gunfun 1,

          Very much so! I was amazed back when I got my HW-30S in .177 and was testing pellets, and found that JSB 7.9s went a good 70-80 fps faster than Crosman Premiers at the same weight. Even the JSB 8.4s were faster than the Premiers.

          It all got down to how tight the Premiers were in the breech, and how much harder the lead is. Much more drag to overcome on the pellet . . . .

          This is a hobby that we can never run out of things to learn.

          Alan


        • Oh, and one other thought on the HW-30S – do consider trying a Williams peep sight on it. The gun is nice with either open sights or an appropriate sized scope on it (I occasionally will scope mine with a small 4x AO for shooting at spinners out at about 45 yards from my deck), but it is heaven with the peep on it!

          The low height and easy sight acquisition (plus the longer sight radius) makes for a deadly accurate “chipmunk gun” from 3 to 25 yards or so. I simply love mine with the peep on it! I switch between a small target apperature for indoor target shooting and a slightly larger one for outdoor pesting, but it is great either way (it is just hard to pick up the shippers in the grass with the small hole. I will probably get an adjustable iris at some point.

          I can’t recommend it highly enough! You ought to try it . . . .


          • Alan
            That’s why I’m hooked on the JSB 10.34’s. There’s just something about them that make them fly faster than other pellets of the same weight.

            So you know what that means. A fast flying heavy pellet that has a flatter trajectory of another type pellet of the same weight.

            One of my buddies went to a feild target match last weekend. A good majority of the shooters were using JSB 10.34’s he said.

            And yes I should give some peeps a try. But I like the open feild of veiw that open sights give. Once you can shoot good with conventional open sights it makes scope shooting easy. To me anyway.


  28. GrandpaDan,

    🙂 Glad to hear that you are hanging in there. As you can see, there is no lack of people willing to help here.

    As for the heavier pellet hitting higher, that is because of higher retained energy. Hitting higher at closer ranges, and landing lower at extended ranges. The heavier pellet is also shooting with a lower FPS, (feet per second).

    Yes!, get a shooting bench together. I use 2 saw horses, wood, thick plywood top. For a rest, I use some 2×8, 4×4 and 2×4, all put together and topped with some foam gasketing. I find the “artillery hold” too difficult and uncomfortable for my wrist. Indoors, I have a similar set up, but have some plastic Stanley saw horses that are adjustable at the top. Your idea should be fine, just not too much. You want the rifle to “slide/wiggle” a little. The whole idea there is to let it recoil a little, but it should return to the relaxed position after firing.

    Give serious consideration to the seat height as everything else will build from that. You can use the kitchen table, books and variable height chairs to get an idea of what feels best to you, and then build the outdoor rig to that.

    When shooting/testing,.. I never worry about where the pellet hits,… just how tight the groups is. The POI, (point of impact),.. can be adjusted later with the scope. Try lower mag levels too, 5,6,7.

    One final word,.. most all guns and pellets will look good at 10-15 yards. Stretch that out to 20 or 25. Start close and see where you can end up with 1-2″ groups.


    • I made my shooting table following this video. You can buy the Rugged Buddy sawhorse legs at Amazon.com.
      They are very heavy duty and the bench doesn’t wiggle a bit. I also purchase an adjustable height stool at Harbor Freight for $19. That works perfectly for getting just the right height for the bench. The nice thing about the table is that the legs fold in and it’s easily transported to my basement for shooting in the winter months or out to my yard barn so I can use it on my patio in the spring and summer. Works great and total cost is only about $50 or less. Here a link to the YouTube video:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMIWFXJ-8R8


      • Geo791

        I like the cut away. Mine does not have that. Rather, the top over hangs the rear and supplies room for the legs. Had to brace that. My top is stiff, but is actually a plastic material that I got at work and cleans up very nice. Weather proof too. Hey,.. at least you have a purpose built bench. That is a huge plus right at the start. And by the way, I think that you have done a very fine job at your research and trying solutions. I sincerely hope that you can get something to work.


  29. B..B.

    Well, I have read through the blog and all of the posts. Some very interesting comments. Thanks for including my post in your blog. You did not comment directly regarding my rws34’s barrel geometry, or the pellet inspection. Is my barrel bad, or is it normal for an airgun? The fact that it is barrel shaped, larger in the center section than on either end, concerns me somewhat. The size variation may only be .02mm or .03mm but I can feel the difference as I push the pellet through the barrel. And at 1″ or so from the muzzle end, there is significantly more resistance.

    Yes, I understand that the pellets are not cast, but forged. Even so, there is a visible parting line on the Crosman pellets and they are not as round as the JSBs or the RWS pellets. They also vary in head size much more, though they are larger at 5.52mm +.

    You nailed in on the head in your summation to GrandpaDan. That is my feeling exactly. And by the way, I have been following your blogs and occasionally have posted in them since 2013 when I first purchased the RWS34. You and fellow posters have been the inspiration and motivation to keep me trying to shoot this springer accurately.


    • Geo791,

      You need to try larger pellets. Your barrel does sound like it’s on the large side, but I have examined others that did the same as you discovered with yours.

      They some H&N Baracuda Match with 5.53mm heads. Try some RWS Hobbys.

      The “swage” at the end of the barrel is where the dovetail grooves were swaged in and left distortion inside. In only takes a thousandth of an inch to feel. The swage at the breech is probably from pressing the barrel into the base block.

      B.B.


      • I searched for the H&N Baracuda Match with 5.53mm heads. The only ones I could find were 21.14gr. Is that not too heavy for my rws34p? The heaviest pellet I have tried was a JSB 18.13gr and they did not shoot well for me…but then nothing else has either. The Hobbys are at the other end of the weight scale at 11.9gr and those seem too light and are wad cutters.


      • Are all the JSB pellets smaller than the advertised 5.52mm? I measured 25 JSBs and they were 5.49mm to 5.50mm. That’s why they are falling out the breech. I tried some JSBs last summer and I don’t recall having this issue with any of them. I tried the 13.43gr, 14.35gr, 15.89gr, & 18.1gr and none of those fell out of the breech.

        I purchased these last JSB 15.89gr on ebay from Poland. Could they be made a smaller size in Europe?


        • Geo,

          My 15.89’s measure the same. I think that you rule out bad/fake brand pellets. I have a .25 Pelletgage and can tell you what they measure out at is often not what is on the tin. Weight can vary even more. It is not uncommon to have weights vary over 12+ positions on grain weight. Heads will fall into usually 2 positions. Despite having done some extensive weighing and head sorting, I have not been able to discern any difference on a consistent basis. GF1 has weighed and head sorted a lot too and pretty well came to the conclusion that the JSB’s shoot just as well from the tin,.. without all of the fussing.


          • Chris
            Are you telling me that your JSB 15.89gr pellets also measure 5.49mm on the head? These are advertised to be 5.52mm…that would actually be .0012″ undersize. I would think those would be loose in most .22 barrels.


            • Geo,

              Yes. I just did some re-measuring. I have a digital set of calipers that will do inch and mm. A dial set that does inch. And, a Pelletgage in .25. The (3) 15.89’s selected this AM were 5.49, 5.47 and 5.48. The 18.13’s were 5.52, 5.52, 5.51. Both are said to measure 5.5mm on the tin.

              I cross checked some .25’s and all 4 measurements were very close. (Pelletgage, caliper (” and mm) and caliper (“).

              The 15.89’s are what I shoot in the Maximus, TX200 and LGU and fit fine. None of those 3 are as easy to see as your break barrel though.



          • I received an email from the ebay seller today. Here is his response:

            “Thank you for contact. Could you tell me what is on the label which is sticked from the bottom of tin ? There should be a correct caliber (5.52) and a batch number. If there is a 5.52 and you seized that it is a 5.49 it can be a faulty batch of goods… JSB not produce Jumbo in 5.49 cal.

            If you want you can send me a batch number which is on the bottom of tin and once more buy pellets on my auction. I will ship pellets from other batch number. You can also try my other pellets in cal. 5.53 (JSB Jumbo Heavy 5.53 mm 18.13 grains).”

            I just bought some more RWS Superdomes today. I have shot those more than any of the sample pellets I have tried. I need to re-season the barrel since cleaning it with JB Bore paste. So I thought these would be good for that and they shot as good as any of the others. They have a slightly larger head size and fit the breech better than the JSB 15.89gr.

            I am afraid to shoot any more of the JSBs because that last few I shot sounded like a dry fire in my rifle. Apparently they were so loose that there was no resistance in the barrel.


            • Geo

              Anything should be an improvement .

              Some tips…
              If the barrel hinge is loose, tighten it up until the barrel will stay in whatever position you put it in .
              Always close up the barrel with the same motion each time . Smooth with a single stroke .

              tt



    • Geo791

      Although this shouldn’t be a necessary step for a properly sized barrel using quality pellets, try this, what have you got to lose at this point?

      Using a properly sized ball or a cone such as found on a retractable ballpoint pen, slightly expand the skirt of the pellet to the point where you will have a slight interference fit at the breech and the pellet will not fall out when de-cocking. The fact that this happens to begin with leads me to believe that there is too much air leakage around the pellet which will certainly cause large variations in velocity and consequently accuracy.

      Bugbuster



        • Chris USA,

          I had to resort to that myself a few years ago with some cheap, Chinese manufactured, Daisy pellets in my old TS 45 sidelever. It has a really good barrel and SKS type of metallic sights (real steel) but sometimes the pellet would fall out of the breech and into the latching mechanism causing the trigger sear not to engage the piston latch rod. At that point, I had to remove the stock and fish out the offending, mangled pellet.

          I simply put a BB on a large magnet taken from a faulty magnetron used in microwave ovens (each one has two and are very handy to have around) and with a little finger pressure pressed the skirt on the BB, problem solved. As we both agree, no harm, no foul.

          Bugbuster


      • Bugbuster
        It has helped my problem guns group better for sure.

        But bottom line it’s probably because the pellet head size is not the right size for the barrel bore.


        • Yeah, should not the head of the pellet engage the rifling? When I pushed the JSB 15.89gr pellets through the bore with a cleaning rod there was no evidence of rifling on the head and very little on the skirt. Even if I expand the skirt so the pellets don’t fall out of the breech, the head would still be clearing the rifling. I searched for the pellet B.B. suggested, the H&N Baracuda Match 5.53mm but the only ones I could find were 21.14gr which I think would be too heavy for the rws34.


          • Geo
            Yes there should be marks on the head and skirts. The skirts will usually have little heavier marks than the head of the pellet. The skirts are usually a bigger diameter than the head. Put important part. Both the head and skirts should show the marks. Probably more importantly the head over the skirt of the pellet. Usually the air blast will expand the skirt to engage and seal it to the barrel. People have soft recovered pellets and took side by side pictures of a unshot pellet next to the shot recovered pellets. You wouldn’t believe the expansion of the skirt. And of course the more power the gun makes the more expansion to a certain point we’re it can’t no more.

            But what’s funny is there are people who have done tests with pellets with damaged skirts and heads including me. The pellets had severely bent skirts and knicked up heads. The pellets was shot out of a gun that has known good accuracy. Guess what happened. The damaged pellets still shot good. But with one exception. There would be a flyer or two out of 10 shots that would be about 3/4″ away from the main group. And a note. And out of multiple group’s shot some groups didn’t have flyers with the damaged pellets. But when same type and brand pellets that was not damaged and shot out of the gun the flyers did not happen at all. So just something to keep in mind.

            Oh and also you may want to try lighter pellets in your gun. Sometimes that will help certian guns shoot better. But don’t go too light. That’s like dry firing a spring gun. That could damage the internals of the gun. And since yours is .22 caliber I wouldn’t go lighter than 12 grains. And one last suggestion. Try some flat nose wadcutter pellets. By design they are made to be stable. But they do run out of speed fast. So a light grain pellet is needed for them to stay working out at fair distances.

            Let me know if you try the lighter weight pellets and the wadcutters. You never know they might surprise you.


            • I have tried the RWS Meisterkugeln 14.0gr wadcutter pellets. I did not achieve good groups with them. I also tried the RWS Super H-Points 13.9gr. Those gave me some good groups and some bad groups, not consistent. B.B. recommended the RWS Hobby 11.9gr but I think those would be too light and could do harm to the piston assembly. I was in the gunshop this afternoon and saw the Hobbys but opted to buy some more Superdomes for now so I have something that will shoot decent part of the time anyway.

              B.B. also recommended an H&N Baracuda Match (5.53mm) but when I searched for them I found that they were 21.14gr which seems way to heavy for a 680 fps break barrel. He says no that in his opinion, there are no pellets too heavy for a spring break barrel rifle. I tried some JSB 18.1gr last summer and they flew everywhere so I figured that my gun did not like the heavier pellets. I have not tried any other heavy pellet.


        • Gunfun 1,

          Actually, I believe that it is a combination of the two.

          Being that you are a machinist, envision a cross section of the rifle barrel depicting the lands and grooves, then a smaller cylinder, the pellet (just as an example) -.001″ to – .002″ diameter under the I.D. of the breech measured across the lands. I believe that it is quite possible that some of the air is escaping past the undersized pellet skirt, especially if the piston seal or spring is damaged and the powerplart is not up to snuff. Deep seating the pellet to a uniform depth may help, but slightly expanding the skirt to acheive a positive seal from the get-go would certainly mean a lot and it will not hurt anything.

          I agree that the pellet head size may be too small. I believe that ideally, the pellet head should just ride the top of the lands in a spring/gas ram airgun. This rifle really needs to be chronographed three ways with a pellet of proper head size. Out of the tin, deep seated and expanded skirt, the velocity results should really narrow down the possible issues.

          Since this is a break barrel I would expand the skirt of a pellet then coat it with Dykem layout dye or dry graphite film (DGF) and push it completely through the bore. This will highlight the bearing surface of the barrel upon the pellet. Then measure the O.D. of the skirt (groove diameter), and subtract the double depth of the lands (bore diameter) which will give a close approximation of the proper head size required. Just my thoughts, hope I am not preaching to the choir.

          Bugbuster



            • Gunfun 1,

              Thanks, it seemed a simple, logical way to do some troubleshooting, ALWAYS check the EASY, SIMPLE stuff first, before you break out the hammer, crecent wrench and vise-grips, did I leave anything out?

              Bugbuster


              • It would be nice to have a chronograph but unfortunately I do not have access to one. I can see a real benefit to have one though.

                I did try deep seating the JSB 15.89gr pellets with a ball point pen. They slipped down the breech about 1/4″ or so and then I could feel the pellet engage the rifling. The shooting results of doing that procedure were horrendous though. I have not tried the procedure to expand the skirts but I will try that also. These are slipping through the bore so easily on a few that the sound is as though I was dry firing the rifle…not a good sound if you know what I mean. I have accidentally dry fired the rifle a few time because I did not realize the pellet had fallen out of the breech when I re-cocked the rifle. Dang it!



                • Geo791,

                  Even though there are many more much more experienced air gunners on this blog than I, I really believe at this point that you have a damaged piston seal or spring due to inadvertant dry firing and possibly due overall to an oversized bore from the get-go.

                  Are there any indoor archery ranges close to you? Some have chronographs. There may even be someone from this blog who lives near you who may have one. I live in Southwestern Pennsylvania.

                  Personally, I believe you would be better served with a quality, medium velocity .177 air rifle for culling the sparrows from your bird houses. A .22 caliber, for sparrows or starlings, in my opinion is totally, unnecessary overkill and the pellets for a .177 are a lot cheaper.

                  Bugbuster



  30. Hey GranpdaDan,
    As B.B. mentioned, many of us have lots of left over pellets from our experimentation to find the most accurate pellet for our airguns. Once I find “the one” that works, I buy only those pellets for that airgun, and the ones that did not work out are kept for the future (in the hope that they will be “the one” for some future airgun =>).
    I have several tins of .22 pellets lying about; if you shoot my your snail mail address via email ( thedavemyster@gmail.com ), I will sent you a couple dozen of each type (in plastic bags, clearly marked with the brand and the weight in grains); that may help you find one for which your gun has a preference.
    Although you will get your best results testing pellets after you do as B.B. suggested by using some Tune in a Tube on your mainspring and also by getting your scope back into the range in which you have some tension on the erector tube return spring. Good luck to you!
    take care & God bless,
    dave


    • Thedavemyster

      That is a most generous offer. I’ve sent off my snailmail address as well as Cell number if you do texting. If you will send or text me the cost of mailing I will reimburse you for that and any other costs you incur.

      Regarding find “the one”, I’m guessing that the method is to shoot ( a lot) of sets of 5 or 10 pellets in order to find those that make small groups. Then to shoot many sets of that/those to find the one that makes the smallest group most consistently. All of this without regard for hitting the bullseye. I would think that if one is able to produce a consistent tight group, moving that group to the target center would be relatively easy. Controlling the variables to get to the tight grouping seems so much more complex.

      I’m guessing that at some point the group will not get smaller, so one begins weighing, meaqsuring, sorting and setting groups of pellets in search of even smaller groups.

      Disclaimer: the following is an attempt at humor and not intended to offend, Seems like a good hobby for a person with a strong streak of OCD. I can say that because I’m sort of anal about problem solving and can get too tuned in on solving a problem and forget where I was going.

      When I used to “debug” software that I was developing, I learned to change only one thing at a time. The synergy of changing more than one item can make you crazy. I’m sure the concept of “unintended consequences” was coined by a software developer.

      I’ve started trying “deep seating” as B.B. described the technique. I’m using the same ball point pen for all of my testing and I’m deep-seating everything. The groups, even with the less-than-stellar Gamo pellets, seem to be getting smaller. The factor that I can’t measure is the effect of practice. There really are so many variables.

      I will apply Tune in a Tube or the like to the Hunter spring. B.B also mentioned “Black Tar” as a spring tamer like Tune in a Tube. I have to do a search to find the context and more detail.

      Another near-term task is to build or buy a shooting bench and rests. I *must* be able to have a consistent, better controlled shooting position. I need to eliminate the inherent “wobble” created by my Jerry-rigged shooting set-up.

      I may dispense with the scope and use open sights temporarily to eliminate the scope as contributing to the problem.

      Many thanks for good advice. God Bless you and yours.
      Dan


      • GrandpaDan
        No worries; the pellets are just lying around; hopefully, they will be of some use to you.
        A shooting bench would help; the Artillery Hold would help; and, as you noted, changing one variable at a time is good sound engineering practice.
        Let us know how things work out with your rifle; airgun shooters love to get feedback from other airgun shooters.
        take care & God bless,
        dave


      • GrandpaDan,

        You sound as if you are on the right path on every front. Nice comment on the OCD. There is probably more truth to that than any of us would care to admit. Yes on the targets,.. get close and worry about getting on the bull later. Just keep the aim point the same.

        As for a bench, sitting up straight (er-ish) is better than all hunched over. While hard to imagine, you want to be very relaxed and natural in your position. (Take your time) deciding that. Of course, your final rest height can help with the best height.

        My indoor bench is 2 Stanley saw horses where the tops are adjustable for height. They are light and solid. About 50 bucks at Lowes. There are many types out there. Top with a solid top.

        My outdoor set is 2×4 saw horses. It is an old set that has those brackets that the 2×4’s go in. Braced leg to leg and side to side. Drywall screws throughout. The one nearest me has a 1 x 12 under that makes a nice shelf. It is a set that I already had, otherwise I might have considered a set like my indoor set up. Either way, consider leg room as you will be wanting that.

        One other tip that GF1 had, which I do not have, is to find a seat that has lower back/butt support. The thought there is that you can get “locked” in better on your shooting position.

        Best of wishes to you and looking forwards to seeing you progress. Chris



  31. Gunfun1

    You already know it but GranpaDan is dealing with more fliers than Couples can fix. I am a big fan of his pellet gages but on average the accuracy improvement is about a pellet diameter plus or minus a half at 10 meters.

    Thanks again for your good info on this blog. Have you ever tried a large ghost ring rear peep sight vs open sights?

    Decksniper


    • Decksniper
      No I haven’t tryed that type of rear sight. Not sure if I know what it is. Maybe I do but don’t recognize the name.

      Can you post a link with a picture so I know what you mean. But yes I could be interested in trying one.


      • Gunfun1

        Your preferred open sights allows the eyes to focus on the front sight. Ghost rings offer that same advantage. I helieve they may marry the best of peep sights with the best of open rear sights. Ghost rings usually have a larger hole but since it is thin it almost becomes invisible (ghost). I’m not saying Field Target pros use them. Ghost rings are worth a try for informal shooting at many different targets. I am no expert on this subject but am often surprised with the advantage peep sights have over open rear sights on battle rifles.

        There are many choices so get on line and look for Ghost ring rear sights. Get a popular priced one first to see if you like it. Target acquisition should be nearly as quick as with open sights.

        Decksniper


        • Decksniper
          But another thing that I like about open sights and is important to me is the feild of veiw.

          I want to see the surrounding area. With peep sights that can’t be done.

          And yes by far the peep sights of what ever types they may be are probably best suited for target shooting. And what I mean is shooting at paper and not worried about other things in that shooting area. I believe peep sights are good for a controlled shooting area. Not for when all the surrounding area needs to be seen.


  32. B. B.

    One way to optically center a scope that I often use is the Mirror Method. I did search the blog using different keyword combinations, but I was unable to find a description of how it’s done for any readers who might be wanting to give it a try.

    For me personally it is easier to show someone how it’s done rather than describing it.

    Do you think that it’s worth while to do a blog about this method. I know that it won’t really get the scope dead center, but it sure gets close enough for me.

    Just my 2 cents
    jfrich


    • Rich
      We have talked about that way also on the blog in the past. I don’t remember if BB did a actual blog on it. But definitely discussed it here before.

      Maybe BB can post a link if he did a blog about it.


    • jfrich,

      I hate to say it but optically centering is a fad that is dying out. Even field target competitors don’t do it — not the world-class ones, anyway. There may be one or two who still do it, but most have discovered that it has little to no value.

      Now, if someone would invent an adjustable scope mount that was precise enough to adjust the scope, optically centering might be worth the effort.

      I know I have written about it in the past, but I also used to write that exceeding the sound barrier made pellets inaccurate. Live and learn. 😉

      B.B.


      • Gunfun 1

        I really did try to find it. Maybe it was discussed in the comments section, and that was why I missed it.

        BB

        I might be beating a dead horse here, but if it gets you even somewhere near the center of travel wouldn’t it be of benefit to use it before doing the notched box method? Or am I clutching at straws to save my pet procedure?

        Rich


        • Rich,

          The “dead horse” you are beating is that after you have centered the reticle how are you going to adjust the scope to get on target? With an adjustable mount? They aren’t precise enough yet. So all that work for nothing, as you have to twist the knobs to get sighted-in.

          B.B.


  33. I just had a crazy thought and I almost hate to ask.

    When you guys use the pellet gage do you hold the pellet by the skirt and drop a pellet in a hole and see if it drops through?

    Or do you hold the pellet by the skirt and place the pellet in each hole till it won’t go in?

    If your dropping the pellet in a hole and finding where it doesn’t drop through could be wrong I think. If done that way your not measuring the head of the pellet. Your measuring the skirt if done that way.

    The head of the pellet is what is needed to be measured the most of the two features. So placing the head in the gage holes till it won’t drop in seems to me to be the correct way.

    And again. Everybody might know this. But figured I would mention it.


  34. GF1,

    The skirt does not factor in,.. other than a “handle”. For me, I drop it in progressively smaller holes until it does not drop. At that point,.. I “call” the size of the pellet as the last hole that it (did) drop through. Either way, using the (same) method each time would be the key. At the most,.. I have found 2 different sizes in a tin and often that does not match what is posted on the tin.


    • Chris U
      I’m not following. Why does the skirt not factor in.

      So the skirt does not pass all the way through the hole at any time when your gaging?

      If the head on the pellet is smaller than the skirt your picking up on the skirt if it is bigger than the head and it’s passing through the hole in the gage.

      Right?


      • GF1,

        No,.. (just) the head is supposed to go into the gauge. Once it drops,.. you go under and push it back up and take it out and move onto the next pellet.



          • GF1,

            Imagine that? 😉 I bet you would have had one “back in the days” of competition. The other way is start small and stop, when it does drop. Come to think of it,.. that is the way that I use it.


            • Chris U
              I know what your saying.

              But. The pellet gauge would of been one of my tools towards accuracy.

              (Not) the only tool. I for sure would of still weighed pellets and measured the skirts and waste and overall length of the pellet. Plus wash the pellets and lube them. And that’s after I found the best out of different available pellets if allowed.

              Yes I did that. Yes that’s what happens in competition. Yes that probably helps you achieve better groups.

              And then comes technique. And by that I mean finding out how your gun likes to be shot.

              There is way more to it than meets the eye.


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