FLZ Luftpistole, version 2: Part 1

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

FLZ pistol
The FLZ version 2 pistol was made in Germany from 1938 to 1940.

A history of airguns

  • Uncommon
  • Description
  • Stock
  • Marks
  • Looks like a rifle

Today we start looking at an air pistol that’s uncommon in the U.S., and indeed, around the world — the FLZ Luftpistole version 2. FLZ stands for Fritz Langenhan of Zella Mehlis, Germany. We have looked at one other FLZ airgun on this blog in the past — the Millita that now resides in RidgeRunner’s Home For Wayward Airguns.

Uncommon

I don’t think the FLZ air pistol is rare, but the first version that has a rounded grip was made from 1926/7 to 1940, according to The Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols, by John Griffiths. Version 2 that I have was introduced in 1937 and lasted until 1940. The nation of Germany was preparing for war in the late 1930s, and commercial production was curtailed, so I think the second version of the gun must be less common. That doesn’t make it more valuable — just harder to find.

When I bought the gun the seller said it was firing weakly. He thought it might have stale grease in the powerplant, and indeed it might. But I don’t think this pistol was ever designed to be that powerful.

Description

The pistol is 16-1/2 inches long, 8 inches of which are the barrel. This model came with both smoothbore and rifled barrels and mine is rifled. When I examined the bore it looked like 20 miles of dirt road, so a thorough cleaning is in order.

The metal is deeply blued and highly polished. My example has buggered screws and is missing a lockscrew. The wood is worn and doesn’t match the condition of the metal.

The pistol weighs 1 lb. 4-3/4-ounces. It is very light, but since all the weight sticks out in front of the grip, it feels muzzle heavy.

Stock

The stock and grip are one piece of wood that’s most likely beech. Unfortunately the wood grain runs perpendicular to the grip, so the inevitable crack that runs all the way around the top of the grip is present. Target rifles like the FWB 300 and the Anschütz 250 have the same problem. Wood has no strength when it is oriented this way, in relation to stress. When you cock the pistol the base of the grip would have been pushed forward, resulting in the crack.

FLZ pistol cracked stock
Here you see the crack in the grip. Also, look at the FLZ medallion.

Some clever previous owner scratched what almost looks like a peace symbol into the right side of the stock. It doesn’t add anything but I don’t mind it, either. It gives me a little link to the pistol’s past — or at least I like to think so.

Marks

There are very few marks on the exposed parts of the pistol. On top of the barrel it says FLZ Luftpistole and on the left side of the grip is the FLZ post-1921 trademark of the company’s initials inside a brass and blue circular medallion. A letter Z is stamped into the bottom of the barrel, just  ahead of the base block, signifying “gezogen”, which means rifled. It’s actually the past participle of zihen, which generally means “pulled”, so that’s why the letter Z is used.

FLZ pistol markings
The only marks are on the barrel.

I took the barreled receiver out of the stock to see if there were other marks that were hidden, but there were none. And disassembly isn’t as straightforward as it might seem. I even told myself that older spring pistols like this often have trigger return springs that are separate from the action and yet that did not stop me from popping this one out on the floor.

The sights do not adjust for elevation, but both front and rear slide sideways in their dovetailed slots. The front sight is a post and bead and the rear is a rounded notch.

FLZ pistol front/rear sight
The front and rear sights are for sporting use.

Looks like a rifle

If you think the FLZ pistol looks like a breakbarrel rifle you are not alone. Everyone agrees that it does. It isn’t until you see how small the spring tube is that you realize this isn’t a cut-down rifle. It was always a pistol. The looks are just borrowed from the breakbarrel rifle design.

I will test this old girl for you in the usual way. When I had it apart to look for marks I could see that it is bone dry on the inside, so I may take it apart again and give it a good luberication.

191 thoughts on “FLZ Luftpistole, version 2: Part 1


  1. BB,

    The Militia’s little sister! I can see from the photos that the quality is exceptional. I am certain that she has a leather piston seal and the breech seal is likely leather also. She will blossom with a bit of TLC. If she shoots like her big sister, she is going to be awesome.


  2. BB,

    Something else I have noticed about this pistol and so many other of these old air pistols is that the grips/stocks look so ungainly and plain. I know that part of this is the result of the material being used and also the need to properly mount the action. This can be quite deceptive though as most often these old gals fit into your grasp right nicely.


    • RR,

      With your interest in vintage air guns I am guessing that you run into worn leather piston cups fairly often. Do you have a source for them or do you just make your own?

      Was thinking about your 101. Let me know if you need a piston cup as I can send you some.

      Hank


      • Hank,

        So far the only leather seal I have had to replace is the piston seal for the 1906 BSA. When I bought it, the guy had a brand new seal for it. BB put a new leather breech seal in the Webley MK2 Service. Many of these can still be had from various parts dealers. If one cannot be found, a good leather punch set and a piece of cowhide and you are set up to make your own.

        As for my 101, all of the seals are a black synthetic and look to be in real great shape with the exception of the o ring between the compression chamber and the valve. I have not as of yet been able to find the proper size o ring, however I have made one that fits and this weekend I will likely make a few more just in case.

        I have started removing the old paint and preparing the steel for refinishing. I may even start on removing the paint from the aluminum this weekend. I am really getting antsy with wanting to get this old gal shooting. 😉


        • RidgeRunner,

          I would highly recommend glass bead blasting your aluminum parts since it does not damage the metal. It would even work well on steel but would leave a matte finish if you intend to blue the barrel afterwards.

          Check McMaster Carr for O-rings, they should have what you need. You can easily check if the part you order will fit since you can view a CAD drawing of many of their products.

          Bugbuster


          • Bugbuster,

            I think I have pretty much decided to go with bead blasting the steel and the aluminum. I was thinking of polishing the steel, but decided I want it to be a “hunter” with a matte finish on the steel and aluminum.


  3. B.B.,

    Very interesting. I look forward to seeing this one torn apart. I like the way that the front mount on the trigger guard wraps around side to side. I thought that was unusual.

    Chris


  4. I picked up two of those $10. China made spring pistols a few years back and the first thing I did was remove the trigger guard and totally rebend and modify it. Most uncomfortable pistol I ever held. A lot better now.
    This pistol looks like a good candidate for the same modification. Not much to play with though. Grip may be too short
    Bob M


  5. BB,

    You did not show us any detail of how the grip is held on. I hope that when you go inside you will show the various parts during removal and assembly. We really enjoy when we have a peek behind the curtain. 😉



  6. BB ,

    A good trick to repair screw heads is to use the drill press. Put a block of wood with some emery paper and oil. Push head into paper with the drill press running and you can clean up a not to damaged screw quickly. If the screw head is domed just tap the screw head into the wood to form the shape when the drill is not turning. blast off screw with brake cleaner or alcohol and cold blue !! If the firearm has a high polish blue You will have to buff the head or polish to 600 grit. For most firearms and airguns the 220 grit is more than sufficient.


  7. Talked to Prax Air a welding gas supplier about 6000psi k size tanks yesterday. They only come in nitrogen, the actual fill pressure is 6200 to 6300 psi. 175.00 5year lease, then basically 200.00 per exchange. So 375.00 to get started, did the guys at the shot show estimate the number of fills per tank? And what about pure nitrogen as a propellant gas?
    Carl


    • Carl,

      Pure nitrogen is a superb propellant gas. It contains no moisture, prohibits oxidation, does not support combustion and is less affected by temperature variances. You will need a regulator and some type of fill assembly.


      • R.R.
        I’m not sure I’m going this route but I wanted to put it out there. Really liked the portable Crosman compressor and I’m going to be busy with the tx for awhile so I’m going to think about things for a bit.
        still have my pump assist stand to help hand pumping.
        Carl





          • Michael,
            Right not very portable but like R.R. Commented nitrogen is a superior gas so it definitely has some benefit I’m going to cal pressure specialist for a regulator fill adapter price sometime
            Carll




                • Carl and Michael,

                  Whether you go with a compressor or nitrogen, once you take that step past the hand pump you are going to want a portable tank to refill your airgun from. The portable compressor idea is nice, but that restricts you to being close to a power source if you are going to rely on it to fill your airguns.

                  Yes, this can be a quite expensive hobby. 😉


                  • R.R.
                    Expensive indeed in both time and money, both well spent. My thoughts on the portable compressor was a hand truck and deep cycle battery with mounts for guns and gear as well.


                    • Coduece
                      You should connect with Vana2. He made him a nice set up. I don’t think he has a compressor on his. But still nice.

                      Maybe Vana2 will read this an post some pictures again.


                    • Carl,

                      Here is my compressor setup. The white section of pipe is to hold my 98 cubic foot tank while filling.


                  • RidgeRunner,

                    I see your point, although to justify the expense, it would help if the equipment has more than one potential use. I use 8 gram CO2 carts for vintage air pistols and for making soda water for scotch & sodas. A co2 bulk tank can double as a fire extinguisher. A hand pump can top off a truck tire, etc.

                    Do you believe a 4500 psi 90 cu. feet buddy bottle could fill the below 86 inch by 46 inch by 16 inch dingy? (I’m serious.)

                    Michael


                    • Michael,

                      As far as I know the capacity of a compressed gas bottle is an expression of how many Standard Cubic Feet ( or Inches ) of the gas they hold. “Standard” refers to atmospheric pressure at sea level. Another way to think of it is as how big of a weather balloon will it fill. Since your raft is going to be filled to just a few PSI (3 or 4) over atmospheric and since the tubes are basically cylinders, you can calculate the inside volume in cubic feet and if it is less than 90 you should be in business. The dimensions that you provided won’t work in the formula that you’ll have to use. Measure the boat as if it was a giant hotdog and you brought the ends around to form an elliptical donut.

                      My guess is that it will. I went to this site http://www.handymath.com/cgi-bin/solidsphere.cgi?submit=Entry and did a calc for a 90 cubic foot cylinder that had a 16″ diameter and came up a ” hotdog ” that is 774 inches long. A 90 cu ft fiber tank is 700 bucks so I’d do the math myself if I were you.


                    • Michael,

                      By buddy bottle, do you mean 90 cubic inch? Will that fill it, I do not know but I would suspect so.

                      Sometimes you just need to do something for it’s own reason. I bought a compressor and a 98 cubic foot tank for filling my PCPs. That’s it. What is the other purpose for the dingy?


                • Carl,

                  I just now spent about 20 minutes looking for it to no avail. It must be in my cache of to-be-repaired air guns / to-be-worked-on guitars, and to-be-worked-on guitar amplifiers, which is in an inaccessible corner of my basement. (Heavy sigh) the life of a hoarder . . .

                  The picture below is not mine, but mine looks almost exactly like it.

                  Michael




                    • RR,

                      I would consider it except I think it will be a good learning project for me. (B.B.’s surgery on this one will be my recon.) Also, back to when I was a kid I’ve been drawn to 18th century pistols and rifles. I played with Revolutionary War toy soldiers and so on, too.

                      I was also very happy to get my Pioneer BB76. That is one I’ll probably never part with, even though it couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.

                      Michael



        • Coduce,

          I did some back of the envelope calcs using the info you have provided so far and came up with this rough comparison.

          If you already owned a 488 cu ft tank and regulator and hose set and you compare that to an Air Venturi pump at $1105 for a refurb and a 98 cu ft carbon fiber tank at $700, after paying $200 to fill the nitro tank 9 times ( That would refill your fiber tank 45 times ) you would have spent what it would cost to own the pump and fiber tank for the rest of your life. If you have to buy a regulator set and lease the tank then you will reach that point after fewer nitro bottle fills. If you source your fiber tank and /or your pump from a cheaper supplier or use a different pump such as a Chinese one or choose a used tank,then still fewer nitro fills will cost what the pump setup costs. If you go with a 75 cu ft fiber tank from Air Venturi that will save $200 or the cost of 1 nitro tank refill.

          I have a Air Venturi pump and 75 cu ft fiber tank, all of which I bought new, and after running the numbers I would do it again rather than lease a nitro tank. The things that I do regret now, and it’s just a small regret, is (1) I bought everything new and (2) I maybe could have done with a cheaper pump.

          That’s my thinking for what it’s worth.


          • Halfstep
            Thanks for doing the math my brain is still a little foggy I’m done with the twelves but still working 7 days a week. I was thinking that the compressor was the way to go from the start especially if the prices get below 500.00. And you have definitely tipped the scales thank you!
            Carl


    • Coduece

      Have you looked into a regulator to get from 6000 psi to your fill pressure? When I looked at this option, that was a missing element. I searched a bit without finding one. The local company I spoke to has 6000 psi nitrogen or air, 5 foot tall bottles weighing about 300 lb. Not easy to manage. Capacity higher than the 450 cf you mentioned, can’t recall exactly. 6000 psi would allow a huge number of fills.

      I posted earlier about Ox Arc having 4500 psi air or nitrogen. With that it would be a matter of converting a regulator used for HPA carbon fiber tanks (mine is DIN) to welding tank input (CGA 580 or 590 I think).


  8. B.B.
    Like the old iron I’m sure you’ll have it up and shootn well in no time. The more I look it seems to grow on me it looks like something James Bond would use but of course a centerfire.
    Bill


  9. halfstep and others, thanks for the info about using a second set screw. Above all things, I do not want to screw up the rifle now that I’ve got it working.

    BobM, after seeing Deliverance, I wouldn’t go camping at night anywhere. There is also the recent story of a British woman adventurer. She was kayaking alone up the Amazon River and set up camp at a likely looking spot over night. Turns out that this spot was used by drug smugglers. When a rival gang saw her tent, they riddled it with bullets.

    That is unfortunate about the woman murdered in her home. But after taking every possible precaution, you can’t live in a state of fear. This was told to me by a muscular bald man who radiated menace and had a background in a special Russian police unit. He then proceeded to give a very convincing demonstration of unarmed defense against a knife.

    Matt61


    • Matt
      I would call it living in a state of heightened awareness not fear. Stupidity more than fear and an awareness of the danger when I realized the absurdity of what I was doing. Hunting for someone or ones that may be under the influence, desperate, armed, and may be fully intent on killing me.

      Alone, with a loaded gun in the dark of night I realized all that could go wrong and the danger I was really in.

      Fear of what ‘could happen’ and a realization that having a gun did not automatically put me in charge of the situation. I called it off and returned to my home and revised my future plans for investigating trespassers and what I thought I would do in the event of a home invasion.

      Glad to hear my decision was inline with law enforcement recommendations.

      Waiting in cover is highly preferable to search and destroy in war games too …. Just not as much fun !
      Bob M


  10. B.B.,

    I hope you do open this one up. It is always interesting to see the innards of old air guns.

    I also would like to see what you find because I came into a non-functioning one for an embarrassingly low price a few years back to be a wall-hanger. Mine has the curved grip and is virtually identical to the one pictured on the 12th edition of the Blue Book of Airguns.

    Michael


  11. BB,

    Do you think both of those sights are meant to be drifted or was a dove tail just a convenient way to attach them. It seems that a pin pressed in a hole would have been a simpler arrangement for a front sight. The only reason I can see for a pair of sliding sights would be for appearance on a gun that required a whole lot of windage adjustment. A little tap one way in front and a little tap the opposite way at the rear, done over and over until you were sighted in would keep the rear sight from hanging off the gun like a cantilever, as is so often the case. Other than that, I don’t get it.





          • The system in post Great War Germany and most European countries had a Master, Journeyman and Apprentice system. Many if not all apprentices filed pieces of scrap metal for the first year to “learn the materials nature” when they were not on cleaning duty or worse working for the Masters wife tilling the garden, cleaning the outhouse, pigsty and barn. Apprentices were typically not paid, housed or even fed. Unless you were VERY smart or rich formal schooling ended prior to 7th grade.
            It was however a great honor to be selected by the Master to learn a trade.

            shootski


            • Shootski
              First did you get your user name from the biathlon?

              And about your comment. Was it worth being honored to be that student? What was the final outcome if you was selected?

              Interesting I might add.


              • Yes, and my son and daughter-in-law also are Open Class Biathletes probably will be in Masters Class once they are beyond the early years of being Mom and Dad to two great little guys! The next generation of skiers and shooters.

                The honor of selection was worth it if you succeeded in your apprenticeship; if you didn’t you did a great deal of humping and scut work for nothing. You frequently gained entry into the Guild as a Journeyman (think super trade union) and a way (think gunsmith, watchmaker, machinist, boilermaker, etc) to make a good living for Life.

                shootski


                • Shootski
                  So then what sort of training is involved for the biathalon. And you say masters class. How many classes? And what does it consist of to train and compete in those classes? Seriously I would like to know. Maybe it’s another way I could improve my shooting. I’m sure it’s detailed. But a brief rundown would be very helpful.

                  And about being selected by the master. Even though you might fail. It seems like in the situation what do you have to loose; but your life in a sense. I’m guessing that the students I guess they were called gave it their all. In otherwards the competition was feirce to try to get selected.

                  In other words all or nothing. You know maybe that’s how we should look at life.


                  • Gunfun1

                    The breakdown of classes is Junior, Senior and Masters. Open Class can be anyone with a qualifying time for that competition. International Masters is 35 and older frequently broken into 5 year age groups. That is a brief explanation with the proviso that, it Depends, is always a fact of classification.

                    Training is split into two sport areas:
                    1. plain old range time, Biathlon Range time (any time of year) and also summer training with PB or Air Rifle while roller skiing or running.
                    2. Cross Country Skiing; preferably started before you are 3 years old and then the added high on the body weight of a rifle, the restriction of a harness (Biathlon Sling) on your body to add to a physically challenging sport of Cross Country Skiing.

                    At the range after you are past the learn to shoot phase you get to do pushups, squats and Burpees before you shoot 5 shots prone or standing and repeat…over and over again.

                    Obviously I have left a great deal out but trigger control, natural point of aim and heartbeat timing are vital skills. It also seems to be windy at every competition so you better be able to read the wind quickly.

                    Fitness level needs to be super high for endurance and strength to be competitive. So you spend a great deal of time hill bounding with polls, roller skiing in the off season.

                    Mental strength training is the final thing to train.

                    Some of it works for both sports but together they make it a nearly impossible sport for most to truly Excell at.

                    It is the most watched winter sport in the world every season! That’s even without USA audience and the major US Networks $ support but once every four years.

                    shootski


  12. Off topic, but good info.,…:

    Having just sold my first air gun, I thought that some might be interested in what shipping charges one may incur. I did all of the packaging myself.

    I used a UPS service at a local Mom and Pop hardware store. Their cut was $2.00.

    For 17#, per the slip,.. (VERY well packed, double boxed with some other added goodies inside)
    $27.26 for the basic charge
    $6.30 for the $700 insurance I added
    $12.00 for the “oversize?” charge. 48″ seems to be the limit and mine was 51″
    $47.56 total

    I did not know and I figured others may have no clue either. So,… just passing along the info. for anyone interested. I asked Gunfun1 and he said 35-45, so that was right in line with my experience.

    Just some FYI for ya’ all that is/was clueless like me. 🙂


    • Chris
      That really ‘is’ nice to know, thanks!
      I am currently contemplating unloading some of my collection as I have replaced some with more desirable updated models available. A lot to pay for 3 additional inches.

      Now we get to realize the real value we receive from Pyramydair with free shipping.


      • Bob,

        Yea, BB has done articles on buying used guns, but I have never heard the shipping cost discussed,.. by anyone. By knowing at least a “ball park” on shipping,.. that can then factor into sale negotiations for any sellers and buyers.

        I will bet that PA gets a better rate than you or I would get. Heck, my work gets a better deal than I would get.

        An odd note,… the guy at the Mom and Pop hardware said that they could not ship firearms,.. even just a gun stock. He said there only certain places can do that. How true?,… I do not know. But, that is what he said. Heck, he went straight to the office when I told him what I was shipping. 15 minutes later,.. after management got on the UPS site,… they figured that since it was an air gun, and not a firearm,.. that they were ok to handle it.

        What ya looking to “unload”?


        • Chris
          Not much that would interest most people here at this point and considering the ‘shipping cost’ I’ll probably go local with low cost ones. Stuff like a Vantage, .177 Ruger magnum, MTR77, 1077’s, Model 25 and pumps like the M4-177 and now called Bushmaster and a few airsoft.


    • Chris U,

      Good call on the shipping charge post. Have wondered myself and now I know. Most of the stuff you may think of to post here is going to help out/inform more people than you might initially think. I may never have gotten around to checking into this and probably would have eventually entered into a losing buy/sell arrangement along the line, so thanks for the edification!


    • Chris USA,

      If the buyer is OK with it, one can reduce the length of the box by quite a bit by disassembling the long gun and the girth often can remain about the same.

      Michael


      • Michael
        You have to take extra precaution when packaging the gun when you do that. The reason is on guns that have the trigger gaurd that doesn’t stay with the trigger can exsposed that trigger. Especially guns like the FWB 300. They have a wonderful trigger as most know. But it is a fragile trigger. So it can get broke in shipping.


        • GF1,

          I have been saving all of the foam pellet can protectors that PA ships with their pellets. That worked out really nice. I almost deleted my stash. The gun, (in) the factory box was totally surrounded by entire pieces, or cut pieces. Having a well packed outer box helps and affords further protection to the (well centered) inner box. It will be interesting to see what Carl thinks, as I definitely went over and above on packing and protection.

          It is sad that UPS and FedEx can not do a better job and show some consistent care. When they show up at work every day, they are going 100 mph and gone in a flash.


          • Chris
            Probably part them going a hundred miles hour has to do with shipping time frames and people griping about not getting their stuff on time.

            So then it’s a trickle effect. Then the packages all get bumped around more. And on the other hand I heard that the transfering the packages to the trucks from the hubs and conveyor systems ain’t the smoothest either. Fast but not smooth.

            What do ya do ya know. But package them good when you ship. 🙂



  13. B.B.,

    I suppose anyone with a break-barrel with a pistol grip should determine which way the grain goes and cock it accordingly. One could hold it fore of the trigger guard while cocking it, similar to the hold for pumping up a multi-pump pneumatic.

    Michael


  14. Michael,

    That is interesting, as most rifles are straight grained, front to back. Pistols are different, but usually have the frame extend into the grips. The thumbhole stocks on rifles are interesting. The 300 like GF1 has also has a very vertical grip, which I thing would also be prone to breakage. The more continuous wood, the better,.. I would think. Some of the newer rifles even have the trigger guard made of wood, which I think is just asking for trouble. All in all,.. an interesting topic. Stock/grip design and strength,… or lack thereof.

    Can you imagine a pistol grip and fore end (1 pc.) made from a large animal antler? The curve would be built right in. Now that would be something to see!


    • Chris
      Live oak trees were used in early American ship building for the exact reason. The low heavy branch’s at almost the perfect angle to the trunk with continuous grain made for very strong construction. I think the US keeps a grove of live oak trees for the future restoration of ships like the Constitution.
      Carl


      • Carl,

        Ship building has always fascinated me. What a craft! I have always been drawn to ships and water,.. but can’t swim a lick. More like a Moose on roller skates,… only in water! LOL 🙂


        • It is never too late to learn how to swim!

          It will be the last strenuous physical activity any of us will be able to do as we get older.

          And, it is such a gift to give to your children and grandkids. (Along with teaching them to shoot and hunt)

          Lifeguards for Life!

          Shootski.


          • Shootski
            Thank you for the link! And my daughter is a life guard so yes I agree once a life guard always a lifeguard. And some of the people who have been lifeguards are pretty rare company.
            Carl


            • Carl you are absolutely spot on! Both my son and daughter were lifeguards and competitive pool and open water swimmers. Carl, is your daughter an open water/beach guard it can be a really a great career; especially for a woman since they are still underrepresented? I started out as a beach Jr. guard and then got my draft number…I left behind the idea of a career as a guard and joined the Navy, went to college and then got my Wings of Gold. Once I retired from active duty I went back to lifeguarding. I hung up my rescue can when I turned 68. I realized that I might just kill myself on a really tough rescue…not how I want(Ed) to go out! Most guards I know have an understanding of what the really important things in this world are and embrace them.

              shootski



                • Indiana has a coastline on the Great Lakes! And lots of Rivers and smaller lakes and reservoirs. Pool lifeguards are certainly the greatest number of guards since they aren’t either seasonally limited or geographically to warmer parts of the country . If she is interested; Triathlons/ USA Swimming Open Water Races often look for lifeguards and usually pay. I would suggest she take the open water Red Cross training module and time in a sit on top kayak if she is interested.

                  shootski


          • Shootski,

            I heartily agree. Swimming is an important life skill. Shooting and hunting are, too, but I wouldn’t be surprised that in this day and age even more people are saved by knowing how to swim than how to shoot or hunt.

            Michael


            • Every life saved by whatever means is a blessing on us all.
              I wish the coach or some other individual in South Florida could have been better equipped and prepared.

              shootski


              • Shootski,

                I think it’s too soon / too emotional to politicize the tragedy by advocating the arming of faculty.

                So no political argument from me either at this sensitive time, but I do have personal school shooting experience, however, so I will share my expertise. The time my class and I were locked down for 25 minutes with an active shooter on campus, it wouldn’t have made a difference. That’s a fact, not an opinion.

                Michael


                • Michael,
                  Please read my statement again, at no point do I suggest arming faculty. Preparation and equiped: referred to administrative systems along with passive actions and materials that appear on first blush to have been missing.

                  Training a faculty to be effective counter-shooters is most likely a pipe dream considering the workload most teachers already experience. But I will stop at this point since you are absolutely correct that the wounded spirits should be permitted to grieve however and as as they need.

                  shootski


                  • Shootski,

                    No problem, seriously. When a big school shooting happens, it sometimes triggers a reaction in me.

                    Despite our being all very well-trained for defensive measures, some of us (not me — I did myself calm, steady, and proud, much to my surprise) did not follow our training during the shooting. And some of the biggest mess-ups that day were by some of those with firearms!

                    Training is an absolute must, but unfortunately, it can only do so much. The best defense by far is not having a confrontation.

                    Michael




    • Chris
      Yes on the 300 stocks and BB did mention that already about the 300’s. Matter of fact one of the stocks I got in the deal from RidgeRunner had a crack in the stock in that location. It wasn’t cracked during shipping. I figured I should add that in.


      • GF1,

        I just find it interesting that some newer rifle stocks are really pushing the limits as what can be done with wood. At least a thumbhole stock has some top and bottom support. Even some of those are pretty thin in areas. Trigger guards? I am not even sure that I like that. Wood is nice, but I do think that it does have it’s limits. I think that is where laminate stocks will stand out,.. odd/unique shapes. I do like some nice metal work too. Deep stamp? Cast?


        • Chris
          Probably more to do with the power plant of the gun.

          Pcp’s can get a way with a more radical designed stock. But take a springer and some one is using the back of the stock for leverage than I’m guessing it is stressing the stock some way.

          Now as far as a FWB 300 or a Diana 48 and 54. They are all side levers so it would stress the stock a different way.

          But something to think about for sure. I usually hold my hand around the action and stock when I cock a springer or nitro piston too I suppose. It’s just been so long since I had a nitro gun though.


        • Chris U,

          I bet that wrap around trigger guard detail that you pointed out was so the two diagonal screws that typically lock the stock to the action will have a built in ” washer ” so the screws can be really tight. Someone should make a decorative inlay or overlay to do the same job on their spring rifles to give a bit of ” art meets function ” Wadda ya think?


          • Halfstep,

            We will have to see what BB shows us. As for art, I do like a gun that has nice lines, engraving, nice metal work. I like some curves. If art/form can meet function, then all the better. The Maximus has recessed lines in the stock that I highlighted with a silver, chisel tipped Calligraphy marker and it turned out very elegant looking.


        • The laminate stocks are much stronger than other wood stocks and are more stable also. That allows it to be shaped and have thinner cross sections than walnut, beech, etc. It is heavier though and I have not seen a laminate stock as nice looking as a fancy grade of walnut.

          Really the best stock for hunting is synthetic. It is lighter and stronger than wood and impervious to weather.

          Having said all that, all of my antique air rifles with the exception of the Crosman 101 have nice grades of walnut stocks. The 101 may end up that way.


      • I need to clarify more about the stock that was cracked from RidgeRunner.

        It was already cracked before he shipped it to me. We both knew this. It was a extra stock he threw in the deal.

        I didn’t want it sounding like he shipped it to me and didn’t say anything about it.


        • GF1,

          Thanks for the clarify. The whole story on those stocks is I bought two FWB300s from a dealer. When they arrived, one of the stocks had been broken in shipping. They sent me another stock and it turned out to be left handed and it was cracked. I was able to repair it and later sold it. The dealer was nice enough to send me another stock.

          I sorely regret letting that last FWB300 get away from me.



          • R.R.,

            I always figured the “300” signified how many of them in a collection would be enough! ;^) I love mine.

            By the way, I meant 90 cubic inches, not feet, regarding the dingy. I have one the same size (different brand) and use it to float down the river with my wife a few times every summer. It is a pain to inflate and deflate once we get there (we are truckless these days), and any little extra use for an airgun thing helps justify getting it.

            Michael


    • Chris USA,

      If ever I have a choice among a number of different wood products, such as If I am at a store, I always look for one that is made of quarter-sawn wood. Quarter-sawn is many times stronger than other cuts.

      Michael



        • Gunfun1,

          Almost all milled lumber is either plain-sawn (cheapest), quarter sawn (medium priced), and rift-sawn (pricey). Rift-sawn is beyond my understanding, but quarter-sawn is from a log that is quartered first with each quarter then ripped. Plain-sawn is simply ripping the log without quartering it at all. Plain-sawn boards have many and large loops in the grain. Everything else being equal, wide looping grain equals comparative weakness. Quarter-sawn is mostly straight grain. Rift-sawn is usually a very fine straight grain. Look at the illustration below.

          Michael



            • Well, not exactly. You are correct in that center-of-log slices that are plain-sawn are almost quarter-sawn in appearance and structure. But it has to do with the angle of the cuts of the log. Quarter-sawn planks are cut at an angle to the log’s center so that the grain lines face the side of the saw blade. Therefore, the lines of grain face you as you look at the board.

              Michael



                • Gunfun1,

                  Yes, definitely, rift-sawn involves more cuts. The boards are also smaller than with plain-sawn. Fewer cuts producing wider boards makes plain-sawn much more economical. Therefore, plain-sawn boards are cheaper than the other two and are also much more common.

                  The grain of plain-sawn is prettier to most people, but for strength and stiffness the other two are superior.

                  Michael


  15. Don’t know if anybody caught it the other day. Kind of slipped it in on a comment I made. But got a new gun coming tomorrow.

    Was waiting on income tax money to get here. It’s a .25 caliber Condor SS. It was a toss up between it, a Wing Shot air shot gun or one of those semi-auto Sorties. I didn’t get the Sortie for now cause I want the one that has the folding shoulder stock that BB told about at Shot Show. It’s not released yet. Then didn’t do the Wing Shot basically because of not really positive how accurate it would be out at a hundred yards using bullets or round balls. Plus it’s not shrouded any kind of way. And don’t know how well they actually hold up.

    So having a couple other AirForce guns and those both being .177 and a .25 caliber barrel and another that was a .22 caliber made the choice easier over the other two guns. I’m hoping the Condor SS is going to be good out at the longer distances like my .25 Marauder was.

    I’m thinking that the higher velocity the .25 Condor SS makes over the .25 Talon SS it should do nice out at a hundred yards. And should still be quiet since it’s a shrouded and baffled barrel. It’s suppose to shoot pellets at 950 for so that should keep it quiet since it’s sub sonic. Some people with .177 and .22 Condor SS’s was griping they weren’t silenced. Guess not if the pellets aren’t going sub sonic. Anyway going to wring it out this weekend. Got some 31 grain Barracudas and 33.95 JSB’s I want to try in it.



      • Michael
        Yep same here. And I got a few pellets I’m going to try that worked in my .25 caliber Talon SS I had as well as my.25 Marauder.

        That’s the of course JSB 33.95’s and some 31.02 H&N Barracudas I have.

        And I have some of these coming as well. Yep they are .25 caliber Barracudas as well. But what’s interesting is they changed the packaging and the weight discription of the pellet. They are lighter now. So I don’t know if they shoot as well as the old Barracudas. They do look the same though. And what I don’t like now is they only come in 150 count. So now if I buy 4 tins of pellets I don’t get as much off on the PA deal. Anyway I figured I should get some of them since that’s what is available now.
        https://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/H_N_Baracuda_25_Cal_30_86_Grains_Round_Nose_150ct/1449


  16. Halfstep,

    Fyi, I threw two gutter balls to start my bowling on Thursday we were in first place two weeks ago. I had more gutter balls than I remember even when I first started bowling. I am going to blame it on pumping the Crosman 101. My muscle memory was all messed up. I also had my ball cleaned and my thumb was sticking. I barely broke 100. Kate was trying to carry the hillbilly and the samurai but no luck. The samurai had a new ball that was hard to control. So we lost all three games. I love bowling but age is making it more difficult to keep up.

    I remember our softball team giving the other teams over a hundred years when we finally had to give it up. They let me play because they wanted Kate on the team.

    Pellet guns are a different story. I am shooting better all the time especially with the help of optics. The only gun I know shoots better than me is my Crosman 101 Maximus barrel with the peep sight. My Marauder with the hammer forged barrel is a tie but I have a great Hawk scope on it. It started out with a Leoupold scope but the Hawk is more money and a better scope. I can still get better at target shooting even though my body is wearing out. I won’t give up bowling but I see pellet guns in my future till the end even if I can’t pump any longer. I now have two large fill tanks so PCP for me.

    My WildFire is still leaking after I scored on a parts 1077 for $5 and replaced the transfer tube. Obviously the valve is having trouble with the 2000 psi fill I set the fill tank to match the leak and used a stethoscope to find the leak. It is sounds like the valve is leaking. Don’t do that at home. Hopefully Crosman will provide a better valve as a replacement.

    Don



    • Don,

      I put a new valve in mine and it fixed it. Well, the second one did, at least. I got one of the first guns and the first batch of replacement parts ( not an honor I recommend aspiring to, by the way ) so they probably got their stuff together by now. One thing that you might try if it ever gets so bad that the gun is useless, is to chuck the valve stem into a hand drill and spin it a little while you hold the valve body still. Could lap it in and make it seal right.


      • Halfstep
        So that’s what’s wrong is the valve to seat seal?

        I thought maybe the transfer tube was cocked going into the valve.

        You do know that the valve housing to the front nose of the valve can be rotated to orient the tube going into the valve properly.

        That could cause a problem just like the tube lifting or being cocked in the air resivoir block.


        • Gunfun1,

          I don’t know that that is Don’s problem but it was on my gun. I am under the impression that Don replaced the tube and Orings and with parts from a scrapped 1077 it didn’t help. He thinks he hears a leak through the valve with a stethoscope. I could be wrong but that’s what I understood. You need to make your suggestion to Don. I fixed mine with a new valve that didn’t leak.


          • Halfstep,

            I went out to the shop this morning to give the Wildfire
            One more chance before I got rid of it. I had not replaced the o-rings but I did give them an inspection with a magnifying glass. So I replaced the one going to the valve with one that had a larger OD and ID, so it was a snug fit all around. I also gave the valve a few spins with a drill. When I put it back together and filled it with air it was just bypassing the fill air. I gave the valve on my tank a good turn to overcome the leak and went too far. Lucy for me I only had 3000 psi in the tank and got it shut off at 2800 psi. Well once I disconnected from the tank the gun was holding at 2800 psi. I let it set for a minute while I debated what to do. I decided to dry fire until I got down around 2300 psi. I the shot some pellets untill I hit 1750 on the nose. So for the last nine hours it has sit at exactly 1750 psi. Time will tell but it seems ok. I will post again after a few more fills on how it is working.

            I think the transfer tube was leaking in the beginning along with the valve. Sometimes it leaked fast and sometimes slow. It always held at just over a 1000 psi. I would think the valve would hold better with more pressure while the tube/o-ring would leak with more pressure. I any case thanks for the ideas. Hope this does it. The WildFire was supposed to be a simple rapid fire plinker no mods.

            Next if the pressure holds I want it to shoot monitor of can at 25 yards with leadfree pellets. I think that should be the easy part.

            Thanks again will let you know in a few days. Spent the last three days going through my storage shed. Now I need to do the same for my workshop. I actually think the workshop will go faster than the storage shed.

            Don




        • Don
          I do hope your WildFire is fixed this time.

          And I actually only had some of the Barracudas and JSB pellets left from my .25 Marauder. So only got the chrony work and some sighting in before the wind started kicking up today. And really need to do more sighting and get use to the gun a bit better. And I actually put some higher scope rings on today to help with my cheek weld. Shot some more with the higher rings getting the scope sighted back in and ran out of pellets.

          Suppose to be getting more of the JSB and new lighter grain Barracudas tomorrow. But they probably won’t come till after I go to work. So probably Tuesday is when I should get some group’s with both pellets hopefully.

          Suppose to have that rain storm moving through Monday and Tuesday. The rain don’t bother me but it’s suppose to be windy. Well and my targets will get soggy. 🙂 But my plans are for Tuesday if it don’t get windy.


          • Gunfun1,

            I’m really POed right now. It’s 72 degrees and sunny right now but the wind is blowing at nearly 25 mph and I don’t own a .75 caliber to buck it with. 🙂


            • Halfstep
              Raining and windy as all get out here today. But 70 right now. Suppose to be the same tommorow and now they say 36 for Wednesday.

              Out of pellets for the .25 Condor anyway. They say the Barracudas are suppose to be here today and the JSB’s tommorow. That’s the gun I’m wanting to shoot right now anyway. So hopefully by time I get the pellets the wind will be done.

              And were the heck you going to find a .75 caliber? 😉



  17. B.B.,

    Off topic, but since you have Air Force air gun background,… is there any reason, that you know of, that they have stayed away from repeater magazines,.. like for the Texan, Condor, Talon, and Edge? Something like the M-rod magazine would seem easy enough to incorporate that is self advancing and requires no extra action on the gun’s part.

    Chris


    • Chris

      If you knew how an AF rifle is constructed, you would not be asking that question.
      Simply not possible without redesigning the entire breech and firing mechanism.

      tt




          • TT
            Ain’t that the truth. I hand pumped all my pcp’s at first that I had. Then came the Shoebox. I had one of the first Shoebox compressor’s that came with the belt drive instead of the chain drive. That’s been a while back. Had that compressor for some time. Was a definite welcome.

            But yep same don’t take long to put a lot of shots through a AirForce gun. Same with my Maximus. A tins gone before I know it.


      • Twotalon,

        The tank is at the rear. I suppose that the air comes (through) the bolt, instead of ahead of the bolt?

        As to GF1,… Nope, I have never held one, or seen one in person.

        I like the looks, but just would like a repeater feature.


        • Chris
          Not really a bolt. The striker is the bolt more or less.

          And as far as never holding one. I’ll take it one step farther. As much as you like air guns. It should 100% be on your list of one to own in your life time. You will have no regrets if you get one.

          Plus they are more modular than the Maximus, Discovery, 2240 and 1377’s.

          And I might add very modable with alot of aftermarket support. And barrel interchangeability. I think you would enjoy one. Plus very accurate.

          Oh and as I’m typing the UPS truck just showed up. Yep my .25 Condor SS is here. 🙂




  18. B.B.,

    Thanks for the reply. It is (rather) obvious that I have not looked into the construction of the Air Force line much,… other than that I like the looks and the power that they make.

    Chris


    • Chris
      And they are accurate. And you can change calibers in a blink of a eye. Well a bit longer than a blink of a eye. 🙂 And they are pretty repeatable on sight in after the barrel change even. Usually only a couple clicks off of the scope.


  19. A quick up date on the .25 Condor SS.

    First it’s light. Much lighter than the Gauntlet. Second. I always thought it was a big gun. And by that I mean long. But this really surprised me. It’s the same legnth as my WildFire which should be the same size as a 1077. Third the gun is liking 6 on the power wheel settings and a check this out. 2200 down to 1300 psi with around 28 shots per fill. Very good for the air used for a .25 caliber heavy pellet.

    First impressions is I like it. Oh and nothing new in the accuracy department as usual for the AirForce guns I have had. Yes it is accurate. And that is with both the JSB and Barracuda’s. The old Barracuda’s that is. Still ain’t got the new Barracuda’s.

    And yes. It definitely is a thumper when it hits.





          • Chris
            One of the Talon SS’s I had was blue it was the first one I had. It was a non spin lock bottle. The most recent Talon SS I had was black and it was the newer spin lock version. Which I prefer because the bottle has a foster fill fitting and gauge on it. The old ones you had to unscrew it off the gun and screw a adapter on to fill. Plus the old ones didn’t have a gauge. So you definitely had to do chrony work on them and note where poi dropped to establish your full and ending pressure.

            But I like the red also. Almost decided on red. But got black just for the purpose of if I do decide to sell it for some reason most people are use to black guns. Not all like colored guns. My thoughts anyway.

            And yep I will take a picture of it next to the WildFire later and post it. Don’t know why that surprised me when I saw that. They have the over all legnth of the Condor SS noted in the discription buy I guess it never registered in the ole brain. Oh and the WildFire is a short gun at that compared to the Maximus and Gauntlet.


          • Chris
            Here is a quick picture I just took of the Condor SS, WildFire and Gauntlet.

            And here is some dimensions I took from the PA discription about the guns.
            Condor SS…38.13″
            WildFire…36.88″
            Gauntlet…46.0″


            • GF1,

              Thank you. Very, very nice! It is not often that any of us get to see side by side comparisons like that.

              I would have to take the Condor if I was to take the pick of the litter. 🙂


              • Chris
                I like each of them. They all have their own type of shooting they are used for.

                The Condor is going to be my 50-100 yard gun. The WildFire is my fast action plinker. And the Gauntlet is mostly for 60 yards and in shooting of different types. And of course the Maximus falls into the same type of shooting as the Gauntlet.

                I was going to squeeze the Maximus in but didn’t have enough room. Hmm I’ll take one of it with the Condor and post it. And I’ll have some chrony numbers in a bit also on the Condor SS.


              • Chris
                Here is the chrony numbers.

                Jsb 33.95’s averaged 910 fps with a 14 fps spread over 20 shots. And 62 fpe.

                H&N 31.02 Barracudas averaged 930 fps with a 16 fps spread over 20 shots. And 59 fpe.

                So yep making good power. My Talon SS I had in .25 caliber was shooting at 800 fps with Barracudas and 750 with the JSB’s. And that’s the one I modded up the velocity on that I said about down below to Halfstep. So right out of the box the Condor SS is shooting faster than the Talon SS. Which it should. It has a longer barrel and a higher flowing valve in the bottle.

                Chris you just sold your Tx to Coduece. Maybe you should get you a Condor SS with the (extra) money you got now. 😉


              • Chris
                And I’m surprised you didn’t ask what the tape on the scopes meant and none on the Condor SS.

                That is my mildot holdovers at 60, 80 and 100 yards. I still have to do the Condor SS.


                • GF1,

                  Thanks for the info.. Very nice. It is good to hear some actual #’s on comparisons.

                  On the tape,.. I have a similar set up on the Maximus, but a bit different. It is nice to have the holdovers at the ready at all times. Less thinking that way and more time to focus on the task at hand. Just because you make something idiot proof, that does not mean you are an idiot. I like easy.

                  As for why no tape on the Condor,.. I would suppose that you have not nailed down the specific power setting for a particular pellet in the Condor,… yet.

                  Regarding the Condor, I like LOP adjustment and also cheek riser adjustment. So,… on that note,.. I do not know. That has held me back on them ever since I first became aware of them. I do know the shoulder “pad” adjusts a bit. It may be ok as is, but I still like my options on adjustability.


    • GF1,

      I’m glad you like your new gun. I guess I had the same mental image as you did. Would never have thought it would be light and Wildfire-sized. I have two questions. Did you buy it new? Are we going to get up a pool to bet on how long it remains Stock? 🙂


      • Halfstep
        I’m going to post a picture of it along side the WildFire later. Chris wanted to see it. And it was new. Why do you ask.

        And a bet huh. Well I’m very glad you brought that up. Reason is I went the modding route on my first Talon SS I had. First off it did up the velocity but it got worse accuracy. The reason being is I increased the size of the striker spring and put a striker weight in the gun too. Then ended up having to put a o-ring behind the top hat on the bottle because the striker was bouncing waisting air. The thing about it it got harder to shoot in more ways than one. First harder to cock which I don’t like. Second it had a terrible thump on the shot cycle which is what made it harder to shoot also.

        So I learned from the first one to leave well enough alone and that’s exactly what I did with the second Talon SS I had and it shot wonderfully.

        So that leads me to the Condor SS. It will remain stock. Now there was something I did want to try but I need to spend more time with it first. I still need to do some chrony testing and watch my full and ending pressures. But I would still like to get the Co2 adapter from AirForce and try my regulated HPA Air Venturi bottle on it. It’s regulated at around 1200 psi and the Condor SS has shot good still down that low yesterday. And the power wheel adjuster is controlling velocity on this gun from what I seen when I messed with it yesterday. It was definitely changing poi. So I think that I could get a decent fps with that set up since the power wheel is doing it’s job.

        But the regulated bottle won’t happen for a while. So yes I will try that mod eventually but won’t touch the gun any other way. So no need to bet. There’s the low down. 🙂



        • GF1,

          Thanks for the links. I did check them out. For me,… I do not think that I could live with the looks of the QB. I do like whatever I am shooting to look good too,… just a “me” thing I guess.

          I have seen the drop down/offset bottle mounts. While the benefit of a large bottle up front makes perfect sense, (shot count), I am having a hard time getting used to the looks of it. It does look like it would be a rather comfortable hand hold though.

          And like I mentioned earlier,… I like a repeater.

          As for any new purchase’s?,… no rush on anything. In fact,.. I have pretty well decided on waiting on the Custom Shop 2240 until Hiveseeker’s reports come out. If anything has my interest, it is the Fortitude. I am still ticked off on that point.


          • Chris
            I posted the picture of the QB79 so you could see the adapter on the gun. Didn’t post it because of bottle location or what the QB looks like.

            The main thing is adapters are available to position the AirForce bottles how you like.

            And the Fortitude. Why wait on it you already have the Maximus. You know there are aftermarket kits for repeating breeches and shrouds for the Discovery’s that will bolt on your Maximus.

            Just remember one day you really should try out a AirForce gun. I think you may just be surprised at how nice they are. Oh and they have a nice trigger also. It’s not adjustable but a distinct nice two stage trigger. And what is nice though the trigger pad can be adjusted.

            Anyway back to shooting for me. Starting to get windy here. We got a front coming in that’s suppose to be heavy rain for a few days starting tonight.


            • GF1,

              For the shroud and repeating breech,… I would have less in the Fortitude. Ohh,.. and regulated. + plus + plus + plus = a loosing $ build.

              Weather is coming in here too,.. but after you,.. of course. You W,.. me 2 states E. Hey,… we got a mid 70’s predicted here in OH mid week. Not bad for Mid-West Feb. weather. I need to get outside and get some new hold overs with the (now) regulated Maximus.


              • Chris
                But you already got the cost of the Maximus, regulator and scope. So then if you get the Fortitude. Then you add that cost then another scope. Yes you would have another gun. But right now it would be cheaper to buy a repeating breech and shroud for your Maximus.

                And yep we are suppose to be mid 70’s tomorrow and Tuesday. Then back down in the 40’s I believe Wednesday. Definitely got some temperature switching going on lately.




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