by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Artemis PCP air pistol.
This report covers:
- Seals are holding
- First shot string
- Point 2
- Scope shift
- RWS Superdome
- Second shot string
- Regulator?
- Four minutes
- JSB Exact Jumbos second time
- RWS Hobby
- Discussion
- Trigger pull
- Summary
Today we’ll look at the velocity of the Artemis PP700S-A PCP pistol. From the comments to Part 1, I could tell that many of you know this pistol or are at least aware of it. Reader Arcadian even mentioned that it was regulated, but if it is, the reg is not function correctly. You’ll see why I say that in a moment.
Seals are holding
I filled the pistol at the end of the last report, so it has held air for three weeks. The gauge on the pistol reads 300 psi lower than the larger gauge on my carbon fiber tank, but before I conducted the first velocity test I filled the reservoir so the gun’s onboard gauge needle went to the top of the green on its scale. Then I tested the gun with the .22-caliber JSB Exact Jumbo pellet. That test string shows a lot about the performance of the pistol, so let’s look at it now.
First shot string
Shot……………Velocity
1…………………539
2…………………449
3…………………458
4…………………470
5…………………468
6…………………476
7…………………491
8…………………491
9…………………510
10………………..523
11………………..511
12………………..518
13………………..521
14………………..525
15………………..530
16………………..535
17………………..536
18………………..538
19………………..546
20………………..549
21………………..552
22………………..553
24………………..552
25………………..559
26………………..564
27………………..573
28………………..568
29………………..581
30………………..574
31………………..586
32………………..600
33………………..599
34………………..610
35………………..608
36………………..602
37………………..581
38………………..576
39………………..565
40………………..565
41………………..546
42………………..544
43………………..533
44………………..524
45………………..506
Some readers will look at this string and think that it shows a lot of shots on a fill. Others will look and think there is no regulator in this gun, and that the valve hasn’t even been balanced for a flat power curve. But that’s not how I look at it.
I look at it and wonder which part of the power curve do I choose? There is no flat spot to pick. Shots 27 to 38 give me 12 shots that vary by 42 f.p.s. They are also at the highest point of the curve. I can expand that and take shots 19 to 41. That gives me 22 shots with a maximum spread of 64 f.p.s. That should be good for shooting out to 25 yards, but maybe not much farther.
I was missing something very important at this place in the testing. That will become clear in a minute.
Point 2
Don’t fill this pistol until its internal gauge shows 3,000 psi. If you do it will take 18-20 shots before the pressure in the reservoir drops low enough for the gun to come into its power curve. In fact, filling to 3,000 psi by a more accurate external tank gauge shows that even that pressure is too high for this particular pistol. This may sort itself out with a different pellet, so I’m not making any corrections yet.
What you are seeing here is a classic example of how essential a chronograph can be. Another way to figure all of this out without a chronograph is to shoot the pistol at a distant target (40+ yards) and watch to see when the pellets begin to drop below the expected point of impact. When that happens you are at the end of the power curve. Then you need to find the start of the curve in the same way but in reverse — watching the pellets climb into the anticipated point of impact.
Scope shift
And — BY THE WAY — if you don’t sight-in at the right place on the power curve you can expect to see “scope shift” which in this case will be falling off the power curve.
Now I will test two more pellets. This time I will only fill to about 2800 psi (on my more accurate carbon fiber tank gauge), which should put the first shot on the power curve.
RWS Superdome
The second pellet tested was the RWS Superdome. Something interesting happened with this test, so I will show you every shot here, too.
Second shot string
Shot……………Velocity
1…………………628
2…………………597
3…………………598
4…………………599
5…………………591
6…………………596
7…………………597
8…………………596
9…………………600
See how much faster the first shot is than those that follow? Look back at the first string and you will see the same thing. The velocity dropped by 90 f.p.s. between shots oner and two that time. This begins to look like a regulated gun whose regulator is taking a long time to fill the valve. There is a way to test that.
I stopped shooting after shot 9 and waited 15 minutes before shooting shot 10. If I’m right about the reg filling very slowly, shot 10 will be faster and closer to shot number one than to the other shots in the string. I would expect something around 620-630 f.p.s. And, I’m writing this expectation before seeing the 10th shot.
Shot……………Velocity
10………………..622
Regulator?
That’s fairly strong evidence that there is a regulator inside the gun and it passes air slowly. It’s probably faster than 15 minutes, but it’s longer than the 20-30 seconds it takes to get the next shot ready. So I waited 2 full minutes between this shot and the next.
Shot……………Velocity
11………………..612
That was faster but was it full speed? So, I waited 5 more minutes before firing the next shot.
Shot……………Velocity
12………………..622
Bingo! I think we have proven that there is indeed a regulator inside this pistol and that this particular one is passing air very slowly. That renders the first shot string null. And we can consider the velocity with RWS Superdomes to be around 620 f.p.s., give or take.
Four minutes
At 620 f.p.s. Superdomes generate 12.38 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. After this test I further refined the wait period between shots to 4 minutes. Is the airflow speeding up? Too early to tell.
This also does something more. We don’t need a 10-shot string now. Three shots fired 4 minutes apart will give us the velocity close enough, because of the reg. I can refill the gun just one time and get the velocity of the first pellet and the other one I haven’t tested yet in 6 shots, with 4 minutes between each shot. I refilled the gun to 2800 psi and then shot the following.
JSB Exact Jumbos second time
Shot……………Velocity
1…………………570
2…………………578
3…………………583
This is a bigger spread and each shot is going faster. Is the reg speeding up? I waited only 3 minutes and then shot number 4.
4…………………577
And then 2 minutes before the next shot.
5…………………576
At 576 f.p.s. these pellets generate 11.71 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.
RWS Hobby
The last pellet I tested was the RWS Hobby, and I tested it similar to what I did with the first pellet the second time — three shots spaced 4 minutes apart. Please don’t get confused — I did this Hobby test before doing the second JSB test, so I didn’t know yet that the reg was going faster.
Shot……………Velocity
1…………………627
2…………………626
3…………………620
At 625 f.p.s. the Hobby generates 10.32 foot pounds at the muzzle.
Discussion
I think the pistol is changing as I’m testing it. That makes it difficult to get an accurate set of numbers. But I do now believe that it has a regulator and that this one is operating very slowly. I may need to do a second velocity test to pin things down before testing the accuracy.
I discovered this because I once owned a Daystate — yes I said a Daystate — that had a slow regulator. It wasn’t as slow as this one, but it took 25 seconds between shots to normalize. It was my field target gun for a couple years, so fast shots weren’t a problem. I just worked around it.
Trigger pull
I have the trigger functioning as a single-stage trigger right now. It releases at 3 lbs. 8 oz. pretty consistently. It’s nice, though I can feel travel before the release.
Summary
I think this Artemis pistol is well-made and a is good air pistol, but I have encountered a quirk in the regulator that isn’t common. However, that gave you the chance to see how to find such a thing and not to despair when your numbers don’t seem right.
I will give a lot of thought to a second velocity test after I have had more time to reflect on today’s results.
B.B.
I had no idea that PCP’s were so temperamental.
Why aren’t all PCP’s regulated?
-Yogi
Yogi,
PCPs are not all so temperamental!
Regulators however violate the KISS principle that I have avoided death and lesser problems in life abiding by.
Most work correctly for a time within a required operating range of input and output pressures. All will eventually FAIL. By that I mean they will leak down, or go out of specification for stated output side pressure, or they will begin to give erratic performance in output pressure or what B.B.’s current pistol appears to be doing. Most electronic, electromechanical and mechanical devices live and die by a BATHTUB shaped Curve.
shootski
That’s why I’m primarily a Springer user. But I now have two Gauntlets and an Aspen. They get a workout compared to the springs these days. If the reg fails after 1000 shots that’s one thing, but if it lasts 10k I’m okay with that. That’s really in the range of a spring that’s putting out power.
Give me my +-10 fps spread on my simple springer. No muss no fuss.
KISS. The PCP guys that I shoot with at the range say that PCP’s need to be resealed every 5 years or so…
Seems like a major inconvenience.
-Y
Yogi,
From one who has mostly sproingers but enjoys PCPs also, they are really not that much of a fuss. Working a spring compressor on some of those sproingers is no fun.
If your PCP friends haven’t figured it out yet, tell them to put a drop or two of silicone oil in their fill hose every once in a while. It will help the seals last longer.
Sounds like somebody has studied reliability engineering.
Yogi,
You answered your question while asking it. If a balanced valve can do much the same as a reg, why complicate the gun by adding a reg? But some guns may need the reg to meet their performance specs.
B.B.
B.B.,
I know your going to give this a lot more thought…but why?
Waiting four minutes for a regulator? Even waiting twenty-five seconds on a regulator to finish regulating is absurd to my way of thinking. I would be talking to the seller or manufacturer about what the regulator fill time specification is given as!
My suspector says you have an out of specification/damaged/improperly assembled regulator.
shootski
Shootski,
I’m a firm believer in the KISS principle but I feel that (generally) airgun regulators are good thing for shooters who don’t want to be (constantly) monitoring pressures – like an automatic transmission in a car, not everyone likes to shift gears.
Agree with your suspector – something is not right with the regulator on this gun. Maybe it is new/stiff and needs to be broken in. I have four regulated PCPs and none of them have any noticeable lag in coming back to pressure even when rapid firing (3-4 seconds between shots).
Cheers!
Hank
“I have four regulated PCPs and none of them have any noticeable lag in coming back to pressure even when rapid firing (3-4 seconds between shots).”
Hank,
I read through all the comments (19 at this point) and I like what you said here; I am not (yet) a PCP guy; but if I was, I certainly wouldn’t want to wait more than a few seconds to be up an running again. Hopefully, AlanMcD has called it, and this pistol just needs a good looooong break in. =>
take care,
dave
P.S. STILL waiting to hear from my nephew on the slingshot. *shrugs* “These young’uns these days! NO sense of propriety.” =)~
I think it’s all about value for money. You can have a good time adjusting it and eventually shooting tight groups. By the way it can reach 18 fpe easily.
And one more thing for B.B.to research, the regulator is not a common type. From people who have been messing and reading about it, I think it’s more like a regulating valve. Adjusting it, through the screw inside the triggerguard must be done very gently…
B.B.,
Maybe this unit has not been shot enough yet for all the parts to come together. If the unit was assembled with some silicone oil inside that might be why there seems to be some variation as time goes by. As you are using it the parts get less sticky from the silicone oil. Which is probably why you are needing less time between shots as your testing progresses.
Siraniko
Siraniko,
Thanks. I think you may be onto something.
B.B.
I own the earlier version of this pistol, the pp700w. And I did ton’s of forum surfing and reading before getting one. Long story short, the opinion going around was that the factory reg needs between 500 and 1000 shots to “settle in”. Or at least that’s what I’m to understand. There have been some post fantastic numbers from these pistols by settling the reg and maybe tweeking it and adjusting hammer spring tension. Enjoying the review BB. Keep it up
Ray
Ray,
What you say is a big help. That must be what is happening.
B.B.
Makes me wonder if the reg will break in soon. But even if it doesn’t slow and steady at 12 fpe is no joke.
B.B.,
A fine bit of detective work! From the comment’s, I see things getting more interesting.
As for regulators, I like them. My shooting time is limited and as long as the reg. is doing a fine job, I will take very consistent shot spreads any day. My reg. Maximus has a 30 shot spread of 2 fps. I have not done chrony past that. The Red Wolf did 13, 7 and 7 over 30 shots continuous shoot (no refill). I have got 70 full power shots with no POI shift so far. A low fill indicator will come on the screen at around 75-80 shots. Again, I will take that.
I however would not be happy at with having to wait anything past what it would take to re-load (Maximus) or cycle the side lever (Red Wolf). You can bang ’em out pretty quick with a side lever.
Good Day to you and to all,………… Chris
Chris,
If you can deal with a single shot like the Maximus, you will probably like this pistol. Like Siraniko and I are saying, it just needs a little time and silicone oil to get in shape. Now if you just have to have a side lever and multi shot, there is the Ataman.
RR,
While I might fancy myself a pistol shooter, I am not. I was speaking more to just liking regulators,… in general.
Chris
I don’t have an Ataman,… but will a Red Wolf suffice? 😉
Chris,
I don’t know. It seems to me that would be pretty hard to hold out there with one hand, let alone hit anything. I only have two; my Izzy and thanks to BB my Webley Senior. A nice, accurate air pistol is a good change up on occasion. With my Izzy, if I miss I know it is me.
BB,
It seems to be settling in. It is just likely going to take more shots than you are used to giving one for the blog. Maybe a drop or two of silicone oil will loosen things up.
RR,
Right. Like I said to Siraniko, you guys may be onto something.
B.B.
B.B.,
They definitely have it right. Almost everyone that has talked about these on the blogs indicate that they need a LOT of shots to fully break in, and the same was true with my .22 cal one. I tried tuning and tuning, but nothing seemed to work well, at least until I had over 500 shots through it And even then, they don’t like being filled too high.
I ended up leaving the regulator alone (the adjustment screw is in front of the trigger – the pressure in the reservoir seems to have to be reduced to adjust this), and tuned it down by removing some of the hammer energy (it was way too high for the reg setting) and throttling it down to ~500 fps with JSB 15.9 grain pellets with the restrictor. I get ~45 shots within a 15 fps spread from about a 2400 psi fill – if I fill it higher, the speed on the first shots drops a bit further, which is fine for short range work or just plinking. Just so know know, I think my regulator is set at about 1300 psi, based on the shot string results.
It is a fine gun once broken in – mine is the older model with the round shroud and slightly shorter barrel, and is about 3 years old now and still doing fine on the factory o-rings.
Alan,
Wow! That gives me a lot of hope for this gun!
Thank you for taking the time to explain that.
B.B.
AlanMcD
Sounds like you got it set up nice. What kind of accuracy do you get and at what distances?
Gunfun,
I get great accuracy with it – it easily prints dime sized 10 shot groups when scoped and rested in my indoor basement range at 21 yards, and that is shooting it as a pistol. I think it could do even better with a carbine stock on it. I also find that it is not picky about pellets at all – it shoots most of my assortment very well.
I also shoot it regularly at spinners in my backyard that are ~45 yards out, and if I rest it I hit them probably 4 out of 5 times in low wind conditions, and that is with a red dot sight.
It really is a great little pistol. Most of my shooting with it is at 10 yards on my basement range, and it is a far better shot than I am!
AlanMcD
Yep that sounds good to me.
Have you thought about getting the shoulder stock?
I consider myself a springer guy. They are reliable, simple, and I enjoy they extra bit of challenge they bring. That said a PCP can be a lot more maintenance free. I will compare the RWS 34 and the Marauder. I belong to an airgun range where I live. When things got going I convinced a lot of people to upgrade from Gamos, etc. to the RWS 34. They proved to be great rifles and shot so much better. I got good at replacing springs in the 34. As things progressed we got a nitrogen tank and people moved to the Marauder. I also got good at rebuilding Marauders but seldom do I have to mess with a Marauder. One of our guys has shot well over 200,000 pellets thru his Marauder and I have only messed with it a few times. That same guy (he shoots A LOT!) I had to replace his RWS 34 spring several times a year. A marauder I can go to Home Depot and buy plenty of o-rings for a couple bucks. Spring costs at least $18. I still like spring guns better but am glad the guy I used as an example got a Marauder as I don’t have to work on his rifle nearly as much. Really on a rifle like the Marauder, outside of a few cheap o-rings, there really isn’t anything that will break.
The slow stabilization is a result of regulator creep. What is happening is the pressure continues to rise very slowly until it finally plateaus after a few minutes. Some do it worse than others.
A deeper discussion and solution is fully described here https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=150303
nervoustrigger,
Welcome to the blog.
B.B.