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Crosman MAR 177: Part 3

# Crosman MAR 177: Part 3

by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier

The MAR177 from Crosman.

History of airguns

## This report covers:

• Baseline with Hobbys
• Today’s test
• What is the average?
• Second page of numbers
• What does “estimate 601” on page 2 mean?
• But — what is the average velocity?
• Photos
• Pressure gauge and fill pressure
• Big lesson
• Balanced valve
• How do I know the ending air pressure?
• Air Arms Falcons
• RWS R10 Match Pistol
• H&N Finale Match Light
• Loading problems
• Loudness
• Summary

Today I test the velocity of the MAR177 I’m reviewing, and I have a baseline from the 2012 test I did, with which to compare it. Some of you asked me what velocity to expect. Well, it is all in the 6-part review I did on the first MAR177. Look at Part 3 of that series for the velocity test.

## Baseline with Hobbys

In that 2012 test I got an average of 609 f.p.s. from RWS Hobbys and the velocity varied by 32 f.p.s. The low was 593 f.p.s. and the high was 625 f.p.s. I got a shot count of 124 shots on one fill.

## Today’s test

Today I shot 160 Hobbys on a fill. The fill pressure ranged from a high of 3200 psi to a low of about 2200 psi — according to my accurate carbon fiber tank gauge. Those starting and ending pressures are well above the pressure range of the first gun (which was 2900 psi to 1600 psi).

In those 160 shots my highest velocity was shot number 106 that registered 604 f.p.s. My lowest velocity was shots number 156 that registered 571 f.p.s. That is a spread of 33 f.p.s. for 160 shots. However, I thought the rifle fell off the power curve on shot number 145, where the velocity was 578 f.p.s. If I take the first 140 shots, the low was 580 f.p.s and the high was 604 f.p.s. That is a spread of 24 f.p.s. I can live with that.

## What is the average?

I didn’t tell you the average velocity for Hobby pellets, did I?  The reason I didn’t is because of the huge amount of data I collected. Let me show you.

These are the velocities of the first 50 shots.

Shots 51-100.

Shots 101-150.

Shots 151-160.

There is no way I am entering that data into WordPress, because when I edit, the software makes me highlight EACH NUMBER, click backspace/delete and then hold down the Shift key and click Return! For EACH NUMBER!!!

If you are reading this on a smartphone you had best learn how to scroll because I am going to refer to those numbers A LOT!

## Second page of numbers

Let’s look at shots number 91 and 92 at the top right of the second page. Why is the velocity 492 f.p.s.? Because I double-loaded a pellet by mistake! So — yes, it is possible to load more than 1 pellet, and I disregarded that velocity for this test. The average for that column is the lower 8 shots.

## What does “estimate 601” on page 2 mean?

By the time I had fired 70 shots I saw the velocity start to rise and, at the time, I thought this rifle was going to average in the 600s with Hobbys. So I wrote my estimate of what the third column velocity average would be before shooting the string and then I took a picture of that page — so you could see that I was just guessing. And I missed the average velocity by 5 f.p.s.

I estimated what the next string’s average velocity would be.

## But — what is the average velocity?

I’m not going to enter all those numbers again and find the average. But, if I take the averages for each string of shots from number 1 to 140 and combine them to find the average for all of those averages, that number is 594 f.p.s. I’m calling that the average velocity at which this MAR177 shoots 140 RWS Hobby pellets — with a low of 580 to a high of 604 f.p.s. It’s very close to the true average, if not right on. At that average velocity Hobbys developed 5.49 foot-pounds of energy.

The first MAR I tested in 2012 averaged 609 f.p.s. with Hobbys over 124 shots on one fill and this one averages 594 f.p.s. over 140 shots on a fill. The first MAR177 varied velocity of Hobbys by 32 f.p.s. over its range, this one varies 24 f.p.s. over its range. The first gun was faster and this one gets more shots per fill and is more consistent. But the tests of both guns give you a good idea of how the MAR177 performs.

## Photos

Normally there aren’t any photos on velocity day. This time I took 22 photos — 18 of the pressure gauge before and after every ten shots. I will now show you a few of those but I won’t overload you.

## Pressure gauge and fill pressure

I’ve already said that the valve in this MAR177 uses higher pressure than the first one I tested. It also uses higher pressure than the manual recommends. The manual says that 2900 psi is the maximum fill pressure. I filled to 3200 psi this time to get both the top and bottom of the power curve. That was the pressure I saw on my carbon fiber tank gauge when the fill was complete. Look at what the onboard gauge said.

The onboard gauge read this when my accurate tank gauge said 3,200 psi. The needle is close to 3400 psi.

After the first 10 shots the gauge read this.

After 50 shots the gauge read like this.

After 100 shots the gauge read like this.

After 140 shots the gauge read like this. I am calling this the end of the power curve. This is as low as I will let the onboard gauge get when shooting the MAR.

After 160 shots on one fill, this is what the onboard gauge read.

## Big lesson

This gauge illustrates a really big lesson. Do not go by what the small onboard gauge on your PCP says, unless you have tested it and know it’s right. When I worked at AirForce I took all the complaint calls and after the Condor came out many of them were complaining that the Condor wasn’t giving them all the performance they paid for. How did they know? They pressurized their rifle to 3,000 psi on their tank’s gauge (AirForce rifles did not have gauges on them in those days) and the velocity was way too low. I told them to keep shooting the rifle until the velocity increased to over 1,200 f.p.s. with .22-caliber Crosman Premiers and then I told them how to determine how much pressure their rifle needed to get that speed. Some were happy with that, but others insisted that they weren’t getting what they paid for if the gun did not perform at 3,000 psi. I had no good answer for them.

Their rifles got 20 good shots with .22-caliber Premiers at over 1,200 f.p.s. and yet they thought they were getting shortchanged because the gun wasn’t doing it at 3,000 psi on their gauge. Did they think they would get MORE shots at that velocity with the higher pressure? No, they wouldn’t. Some even knew that because they had tested the rifle before calling in.

What they were saying, in effect, was their new C8 Corvette may be capable of going 194 m.p.h., according to a calibrated radar gun, but when they do, the speedometer in the car only reads 177 m.p.h. Well — which do you want, a 194 m.p.h. car with a speedo that’s not quite right and sells for under \$60,000, or a 194 m.p.h. car whose precision speedometer also reads 194 m.p.h. , making the car retail for \$74,000? Some guys can adapt and others can’t.

There — I got that off my chest. Until someone else says the same thing.

## Balanced valve

What you are seeing with the MAR177 is the result of a balanced valve. Did Crosman set it up just for me? Not unless they have a Wayback machine or a crystal ball! I bought this New Old Stock air rifle off Ebay five years after Crosman stopped making them. This is what can be done with a PCP when:

1. The engineer knows what he is doing, and
2. The velocity is kept low.

## How do I know the ending air pressure?

Okay, smart guys. Wanna tell BB how he knows that the ending air pressure (after 140 shots) is really 2,200 psi and not what it says on the gun’s gauge (just under 2100 psi)? This is a test and you will be graded. Do not look on anyone else’s paper.

## Air Arms Falcons

I tested Air Arms Falcon pellets next. This time I pressurized the rifle to 2900 psi (using my carbon fiber tank gauge) and only shot a string of 10 for each pellet that follows. I’ll start with the Falcon.

Ten Falcon pellets averaged 611 f.p.s. The low was 590 and the high was 617, so a difference of 27 f.p.s. At the average velocity Falcons developed 6.08 foot-pounds of energy.

## RWS R10 Match Pistol

Next to be tested were 10 RWS R10 Match Pistol pellets. They averaged 619 f.p.s. with a spread from 609 to 627 f.p.s. That’s a difference of 18 f.p.s. At the average velocity the R10 Match Pistol pellet develops 5.96 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

## H&N Finale Match Light

The last pellet I tested was the H&N Finale Match Light. It was also the heaviest pellet. They averaged 592 f.p.s. with a spread that went from 586 to 598 f.p.s. — a difference of 12 f.p.s. At the average velocity this 7.87-grain pellet developed 6.13 foot-pounds at the muzzle.

## Loading problems

While I was testing the last three pellets I encountered a problem with loading some of the pellets. Even the Falcon domes did it. If I held the rifle with the muzzle pointed up, sometimes the pellets would jam as I tried to close the bolt. I played with this for a while before discovering that if the rifle is held level it never happens. Just hold the rifle like you are shooting at a target and it feeds fine!

## Loudness

Sorry to tell you this guys but this MAR177 rates a 1.8 on the Pyramyd AIR loudness scale. It is one of the quietest air rifles I have ever tested. A Red Ryder is quieter, but not by much!

## Summary

So far this old gem is performing well. It’s even better than I remember — thanks mostly to my Geissele trigger, but also to the efficient use of air.

The first accuracy test comes next. I can’t wait!

Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.
Categories Education / Training, History, Maintenance

### 39 thoughts on “Crosman MAR 177: Part 3”

1. First comment, first typo!

“My lowest velocity was shots number 156 that registered 171 f.p.s” – I’m guessing that’s 571 😉

Can’t believe I beat the regulars !

2. B.B.,

I like the revised posting time. Two hours earlier than the usual. The spread might be looking large for some, but from an unregulated gun that is designed to shoot at 10 meters it looks mighty fine. Spread might narrow further along the more you shoot this and as the silicone oil spreads in the mechanism. Looking forward to the accuracy test.

Siraniko

3. BB,

That is an amazing shot count per fill for a tube type tank.

On knowing the (actual) end fill pressure,….. just re-hook it to the tank and note the pressure when you open the tank valve. The valve on the gun will “click” open, indicating that you are now reading the pressure left in the gun. To do it,… open the valve (very) slowly, wait for the “click”, turn valve back off,….. read gauge on fill tank. (Before) hearing the “click”,.. you are just fill the hose going to the gun.

I like my Guppy tank in that it has a tank gauge (small) and also a large 2″ gauge that indicates what the pressure going to the gun is. It is nice to know what is left in the tank with the smaller gauge.

Chris

• B.B.,

Chris certainly knows the definitive way to determine ending pressure of a shot string. But their is another way to guestimate remaining pressure after the first number of shots for a certain number of hoped for shots. You take the gauge pressures at start to 10 shots and divide: around 7-8 psi per shot. Did the same for 50 shot count and refined it a bit better to about 7.3psi per shot. By the way, that is pretty efficient for a regular .177 PCP! The little gauge was reading high so i took that and used it in my calculations along with the typical percentage error of cheap gauges and came to the final 7.14 psi average per shot = 1,000psi drop over 140 shots!
So you believe that? Actually you spilled the beans B.B.! IN “Today’s test
Today I shot 160 Hobbys on a fill. The fill pressure ranged from a high of 3200 psi to a low of about 2200 psi — according to my accurate carbon fiber tank gauge.” Lol!

shootski

4. BB,

It is kind of surprising that this never really caught on. I know there is a bunch out there that spent more than that for their top ends. The only reason I can think of is it is not powerful enough. “I can’t shoot a pellet out of it at over 2600 FPS. Duh huh.”

Today’s Test
“Those starting and ending pressures are well above the pressure range of the first gun (which was 1600 psi to 2900 psi).” Huh?

5. B.B.

I’m really surprised that the fill difference of 100 psi would make that big a difference?
FWIW-Porsche speedometers are usually 3-5% optimistic, as set by the factory.

-Y

• Yogi,

When a valve is balanced right, a small difference can really affect things.

B.B.

6. BB ,

I hope they can bring this back . There are so many AR variants out there this is a great way to get gun guys into Airguns . Excellent tool for basic marksmanship training . Using the same lower as the rifle you can get trigger control down for way less than rimfire ammo . If it could be made in semi auto to function reliably it would be a huge seller for sure .

Gene

• Gene,

Good luck. The vast majority of Mattelomatic fanatics (hey, that sounds cool) will have one or three chambered in 5.56mm, one in .223, one in 9mm and one in .22LR. Swapping out top ends just ain’t how its done.

There is a market for this thing, but I do not think it is that big. It could be if you could get it up around 12 FPE and ran a type of field target using these.

• RidgeRunner,

Getting the energy up to 12 fpe will probably lower the usable shot count to 40. I can just imagine TCFKAC remaking this with a lower assembly not compatible with the upper firearm assembly (probably with a filled magwell). That allows the buyer to use it off the rack so to speak but will give the user the option to swap it out, if desired, with his own lower assembly.

Siraniko

• RidgeRunner and Siraniko,

That gives the same count as the biggest AR magazine (I own just one 40) I’m willing to try in my Mattelomatic(s) normally I use 10s because i can reliably count that high; it also gives me more chances to practice my mag swap skill. I own any number of 20 and 30 round magazines.

shootski

• Siraniko,

The lower assembly as you described sounds good initially, but would still be a firearm as you could mount a standard top end and shoot it singly. Remember, this thing is designed to fit the lower receiver.

Then you have those like us that think it can be improved. Let’s make it 12 FPE. Why stop there, 500 FPE. Let’s make it semi, no selective fire. Let’s be able to change calibers. Yada yada yada.

• Gene,

There is a lot of talk going on behind the scenes. But given the few real airgunners that are involved, I don’t know if anything will ever happen.

B.B.

7. RidgeRunner ,

Most people I shoot with have a dedicated 22 lr upper , this way they have the same trigger as the 5.56 rifle. I do not see field target people going this route . I understand allot of people own multiple AR pattern rifles but most like a dedicated 22 lr upper . This would be a great concept to teach handling and marksmanship . Perfect backyard/basement gun . If it could be made to be reliable in a semi auto it could sell . Problem with most hunters / gun guys is they perceive airguns as junk due to what they see at Walmart and Cabelas , this could help lift that stigma , if well executed.

Gene

• Gene,

I understand what you are saying. The market here has to change first. Until the recent overthrow of the government here, you would see firearms in yard sales. The airguns are for the kids until they reach a certain age and then they “graduate” to firearms. That will likely change if the present government has its way.

RidgeRunner from the Peoples’ Democratic Republic of Virginia

• LOVE IT!

Fred formerly of the Democratik Peoples Republik of NJ now Happily in GA

• Fred,

I thought you would like that. I don’t. Our county is considering seceding from Virginia and joining West Virginia. Hopefully it will be on the ballet this November.

RidgeRunner from the Democratik Peoples Republik of Virginia

8. I think there is a third variable that should be listed under the balanced valve section..

And IF the technician that builds the rifle builds it to spec.

Remember the old jokes about not buying cars built on Monday’s and Friday?

I have never seen the Crosman assembly system, so I don’t know if it’s multiple assembly lines, one for each model, or each worker builds the gun from start to finish.
(I think it’s probably the latter)
Since it makes more sense in lean manufacturing, when you have as many products as they do.

But each worker should have to sign their name on a sheet in the box “assembled with pride by Ian Mckee, 04/27/2020” that goes out with the gun.

That way, your name is on the line, and if there is an issue with the gun, they know who to come to. And enough returns happen with that person, and coaching sessions and additional training doesn’t work, you find them another position in the company.

But that is just me..

• Ian,

That is the fascination of production! Because you see it isn’t technicians who build those valves. It’s guys who were working in shipping a month ago. I used to be one of those guys. I assembled and tested thousands of AirForce valves. And they were designed so that if I did my job correctly and tested each valve correctly, they performed within parameters.

I could write a blog about the answers to your comment! Because it isn’t just one way!

B.B.

9. 45Bravo ,

Crosman builds it’s guns in cells . At least when I last visited there . There is no need for a gunsmith/technician to assemble it as all the science is done by port size , spring tension , etc.. they just assemble the parts and leak test the PCPs. I know I am oversimplifying this a little . I was impressed by how many guns a day could be built there . The biggest manufacturer I have visited so far with over 350 employees . They are making many products at the same time , the reason we can afford them !!

Gene

10. I figured some of the sub components were pre assembled, (valve and trigger group for starters) as they are more time consuming.

But it does go back to if 1 person doesn’t do their job correctly,and its not caught in QC. the end user gets the faulty product.

There are thousands of guns that go out within specs, and we never hear about them.

Bur everyone gets to hear about the 3 that were faulty.

Ian

11. GF1,

The pistols you mentioned may very well be more accurate than the Webleys I have, but shooting airguns from the 30’s has an additional appeal.

The bolt action Invader is identical to the semi with the exception of the bolt pattern on the side of the receiver.

• RidgeRunner,

I get that…they are younger than we are!

shootski

• Shootski
What do you get?

And what do you mean they are younger than we are. Who is they and who is we?

• Gunfun1,

R.R. said, “… but shooting airguns from the 30’s has an additional appeal.” I think most of us that read this blog were born after the ’30s.

shootski

• RR
What can I say. I like some kind of accuracy and that is no kind to me. Still would take the 1377 or 2240 over the Webley pistol.

And I’m thinking the Invader semi and bolt action will not be the same. Especially if it’s a different bolt pattern.

12. Off topic.

RidgeRunner, B.B. and anyone else who has knowledge of this,

Quick question.

I am rebuilding my Daisy 99 champion from my childhood in the 1970’s.

Does the shot tube have any type of leather or synthetic o-ring on the end of it? On the end that screws into the “barrel”.
I tried to remove the inset “o-ring” on the flat end of it, but it seems to be metal. Is that a retainer ring for assembly?

Also, is that end supposed to be smooth flat? Mine appears to be rougher, like a wood rasp was dragged across it.

I may just replace that shot tube with a new one.

Waiting on plunger head, plunger spring, felt washer and abutment washer to arrive.

Thank you,

John Carlisle