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What makes ’em good?

This report covers:

  • 1. What makes a good trigger?
  • 2. What makes a good spring-piston rifle?
  • 3. What makes a good precharged pneumatic (PCP) rifle?
  • 4. What makes a good big bore airgun?
  • 5. What makes a good replica airgun?
  • Summary

Today you will help me write instructions to the airgun manufacturers around the world. The smart ones read this blog — not because of anything I say but because of a lot of what YOU say. Today I’m giving you the opportunity to speak up and be heard. In my experience if even one of your ideas is acted upon, this will have been worth it.

1. What makes a good trigger?

For me a good trigger is one with two stages. Stage one should be long enough to feel and have very little resistance. Stage two should break like a glass rod, with no warning and always at the same place, or pull weight. I should both know when it’s going to release and be surprised at the same time.

I have a Weihrauch HW52 single shot falling block rifle chambered in .22 Hornet. It has a double set trigger that breaks at about 3 ounces when the trigger is set. But when unset it still breaks at just over one pound, so why bother setting it?

HW 52 rifle
Weihrauch HW52 falling block chambered in .22 Hornet. The trigger is perfect.

Now you tell us what makes a good trigger.

2. What makes a good spring-piston rifle?

I guess you know I’m going to put the Diana 27 in this category. That’s because it meets all my criteria. It’s lightweight, yet feels solid and right, with an adult length of pull. It cocks easily. The shot cycle is smooth, and by the way, the Norica Omnia ZRS wins my support for a great shot cycle. The Diana 27 is accurate, though accuracy really isn’t one of my criteria. As long as it can hit a soda-can-sized target at 25 yards it’s good enough for me.

I also like the slender width of the stock. And the power, while quite low, is enough for me. I like this rifle in .22 caliber because it’s easy to load. I also like the ball-bearing trigger because it can be adjusted to be quite nice and predictable.

The TX200 Mark III is also a good spring-piston air rifle but it is too big and heavy for me to call it better than the Diana 27. Yes, mine is now my favorite spring-piston airgun, so it sounds like I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth. I guess I ought to go into politics.

Now you tell us what makes a good spring-piston rifle.

3. What makes a good precharged pneumatic (PCP) rifle?

Accuracy is my first concern with a PCP. Since the PCP has none of the springer recoil and vibration issues to fight, accuracy comes first. But the trigger has to be great. I’ll tolerate things with springer triggers that I won’t with a PCP trigger. Size and weight are also important. This is why some accurate PCPs are not my favorites, and I won’t name names. But I will say that the Air Venturi Avenger wins me over, because it’s the right size and weight and has everything else, too. And the Hatsan Flashpup QE came so close with the size and weight that I’m working on making it more accurate.

I DO NOT need power!!! Here is what I would like to see.

.177 — 16-20 foot pounds
.22 — 20-30 foot pounds
25 — 25-40 foot-pounds

I do want a quiet rifle and a repeater is okay as long as the magazine doesn’t detract from the accuracy. I’m liking buttery sidelevers more and more, but a hard-to-cock bolt is a deal-killer. And, despite what I said about the Flashpup, they can keep their bullpups!

Fills UP TO 3,000 psi are okay. Two thousand psi fills are better. But fill above 4,000 psi and I don’t want it, unless I can also walk on water when I hold it. As for regulators — keep ’em. Just give me a good balanced valve.

Now you tell us what makes a good precharged pneumatic (PCP) rifle.

4. What makes a good big bore airgun?

For me the lower power threshold for a big bore air rifle is 350 foot-pounds at the muzzle with an accurate bullet. None of this lead sausage-link nonsense just to bump up the power rating! For accuracy I would like to see five bullets go into one inch at 100 yards. But I will accept groups of up to three inches. If the rifle spreads its bullets out to 4 inches at 50 yards they can forget my vote.

Three-thousand psi fill levels are ideal. Give me three shots on a fill and let those three be the first three in my hundred-yard grouping. 

If it sounds like I am favoring the AirForce Texan, it’s because I am. I didn’t invent the thing, but it’s awfully close to my ideal. However I have to admit that I like the conventional look and feel of the Quackenbush big bores better and they give me almost everything else that I like.

They can keep their magazines; I don’t need no stinking magazines!

Now you tell us what makes a good big bore airgun.

Stock up on Air Gun Ammo

5. What makes a good replica airgun?

This one is easy because Crosman started making good replicas in the 1960s and Umarex has risen to the top in this century. The gun has to look real, behave like the firearm it copies and feel real. Of the lookalike guns on the market, there are too many to name them all, so I will name just one. And the one I name is not from Umarex or Crosman.

The Springfield Armory M1 Carbine with wood stock is my pick! Forget the “tactical” one — real M1 Carbines never had Picatinny rails.

M1 Carbine three carbines
Crosman’s M1 BB Carbine on top, the Springfield Armory  M1 BB Carbine in the center and the .30 caliber M1 Carbine at the bottom.

What makes the Springfield Armory M1 Carbine my favorite is also a list of things I want to see in any replica airgun — realistic materials, realistic weight, and realistic operation. Don’t give me plastic if wood is a possibility. Don’t give me plastic if metal is a possibility. Don’t give me a revolver and call it semiautomatic because it fires with every pull of the trigger. If it’s semiautomatic, MAKE IT SEMIAUTOMATIC! Umarex’s Legends Blowback P08 CO2 Pistol is a classic example of what I mean. It’s not just semiautomatic; the toggle joint works just like the firearm P08 (I almost said the real P08, but of course anything you can hold in your hand is real).

Legends P08 Erfurt Luger
The Legends P08 pistol with blowback is shown beneath a 1914 Luger made at the Royal Arsenal at Erfurt. The airgun costs $130. You’ll pay 10 times that for the firearm, and be glad it was so cheap!

Now you tell us what makes a good replica airgun.

Summary

Guys, you don’t have to agree with me on any of this stuff. In fact, I hope most of you won’t agree with most of what I said. This is your chance to be heard and at least you know that Pyramyd AIR will be listening, though I expect several of the other sharp manufacturers and retailers will listen as well.

author avatar
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier)
Tom Gaylord, also known as B.B. Pelletier, provides expert insights to airgunners all over the world on behalf of Pyramyd AIR. He has earned the title The Godfather of Airguns™ for his contributions to the industry, spending many years with AirForce Airguns and starting magazines dedicated to the sport such as Airgun Illustrated.

131 thoughts on “What makes ’em good?”

  1. “2. What makes a good spring-piston rifle?”
    B.B.,
    I feel the same way about my .22 caliber HW30S as you do about your .22 caliber Diana 27.
    In fact, I bought it because of your write ups; but I really like the HW30S because it has all the qualities I think I good springer should have: light weight, good balance, comfortable stock, and an excellent trigger that, no doubt, adds to its real-world accuracy. I remember, in the old Beeman catalogues, Dr. Beeman claiming an accuracy level for the .177 R7 of an inch at 30 yards; with my .22 HW30S, I’m hovering around 1″ groups at 40 yards; hence, I’m well-pleased with the little rifle. The power is “only” 7.5 fpe. Who cares? I harvested plenty of squirrels with my old R7, though I did keep my range under 20 yards. If I wanted a bit more range and power, I would buy an HW50S. If a manufacturer wanted to emulate a good spring piston rifle, these are the guns to emulate.
    Blessings to you,
    dave

    • P.S. I must have been too tired last night, so let me add it now:
      “A good spring-piston rifle must have an excellent shot cycle!”
      That’s the ticket which will allow the users to turn the (hopefully-designed-in-by-the-manufacturer) intrinsic accuracy of the rifle into practical accuracy for themselves.
      My old Field Target rifle, an HW97, was a great example of this; it spit out 7.9-grain Crosman Premiers at 870 fps very consistently and with a really smooth shot cycle. For practice, I would shoot old shotgun hulls at 50 yards on one of the old side ranges at our firearms range.
      That’d be a good test for airgun maufacturers: allow your engineers to get away from their drawing boards, scope up your spring guns, and shoot them outside at various ranges. If they can keep shotgun hulls dancing at 50 yards, you’ve got a winner; if not, send them back to the drawing board. 😉

    • There are specific features that I like- that we all like- and BB covered them.

      The basic requirement is reliable accuracy in any gun that is marketed for target shooting or hunting and pesting. 1 inch groups or less at the range the gun is intended for is probably the bottom end for accuracy in a modern airgun. If a 15fpe springer has hunting power at 40 yards, we expect a gun capable of 1 inch repeatable groups at 40 yards. If that gun has a so-so trigger, or some vibration, we will all still call that a good gun.

      I love this hobby. I’ve bought many airguns over the years and will buy more yet. The last 7 or 8 guns I have bought I purchased online without ever holding or seeing them. I read user reviews, and pulled the trigger on the sale when they read like this:

      “Accurate gun. I like the…”
      “Tack driver. 1/2″ groups at 40 yards…”
      “Great shooter. The stock is a little..”
      “Big and heavy but prints cloverleaf groups…
      “Does what it’s supposed to- dime size groups. Trigger gas some creep but…”

      Accuracy is the staring point. A great trigger will help get there. But we all own plenty of accurate guns with less than perfect triggers and we call those great guns. An adjustable cheekpiece may help get there, or an exceptionally ergonomic stock design. But again, we own plenty of accurate guns with stocks that don’t quite fit us and we also call those great guns.

      We tell our friends, “that’s a good gun. You won’t be dissapointed,” and what that means is the gun is accurate.

      And we tell everybody- EVERYBODY– which ones disappoint us.

  2. 1. What makes a good trigger?

    The order of operation for a set trigger should allow manufacturers to sell an air rifle with a proper trigger set weight without the nonsense required by lawyers. Maybe this can be incorporated in air rifles without raising costs too much.

    Siraniko

    PS: Section 3. What makes a good precharged pneumatic (PCP) rifle? 3rd paragraph 2nd sentence: “I’m liking buttery sidelevers more and more, but (and) (delete and?) a hard-to-cock bolt is a deal-killer.”

  3. B. B.
    You stole one day of our lives! It’s supposed to be Thursday today and not Friday…
    Strangely (?) enough I agree with your criteria almost completely. As for specific choices I will have to finish my coffee first. One thing is certain. You made me remember that I don’t have a big bore, for the moment at least. I hate you for this and so does my bank account.

    • 1. Replicas, the easiest.
      I am tempted with the M1 carbine but the Baikal 654 will always be first. Real steel, same factory, some interchangeable parts… I also love the Mauser/Diana K98 for the replica look.
      2. Quality. This usually brings reliability along with good triggers, sights and firing behavior we all want.
      3. PCPs. Simplicity of manufacture and operation. As few orings as possible, low fill pressure, and no 20 pellet round magazines please.
      After spending/loosing money in airguns these last years and using knowledge from this blog I settled down to the following, for now;
      LGV, Air King T01 Vortek, HW 90, AR6K, K98, HW 45.
      Some more are just visitors.

        • Hi3
          So, you remember well! In fact the Umarex Mini Uzi is still here but it is not a keeper. Bad trigger, not quite accurate, even for my mediocre skills. Regarding the Baikals, even if Schneider is my preferred EU dealer, those rare birds are beyond my reach, money wise. I have kept, over the years, one with the wide magazine but fully tricked and one with the slim magazine just for the feel and rareness. But I bought them some years ago, before prices reach today’s level.
          Forgot to mention them as keepers also.

        • Thanks gentlemen for your comments.

          Bill, what is it that your two Makarovs lack and that you desire in yet another?

          Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier), I remember reading that linked-to article and am pleased that those Makarov conversions are still available, at least in Europe. 🙂

          • Hi3
            I obviously gave the impression that I want another one but it must have been poor use of English. Still there is some truth in this because if you like the Mp654 it’s easy to get carried away with “different” versions. During the last twenty plus years I had almost ten of them come and go.

            • Wow Bill, bit of a fan at “.. almost ten..” (!), eh, or maybe just trading? 🙂

              Would you please describe the details of what makes your current wide magazine Makarov “.. fully tricked..”, thanks. 🙂

              • Hi3
                New, open valve, longer striker pin, bigger valve plenum, all these in the magazine. New smooth bore barrel with an extension that looks like a silencer.
                Please don’t ask cost to gains ratio. Not worth it.
                It was a time I had money to spend and an addiction to collect Mp654s.

                • Sounds rather technical, Bill.

                  At least you braved those upgrades and discovered for yourself how well that ‘t-shirt fits’. 🙂
                  Thanks again for your reply!

  4. I can’t improve on the trigger findings other than not rendered non-adjustable by locktite or inaccessibility.
    The springer should be smooth, no twang. Reasonable weight for the size and solid in hand. The rifle should have the aforementioned trigger and not require a 2 week search for the pellet, so not too pellet picky.
    The PCP should be a reliable design, not full of rings and seals, easy to service, doesn’t use oddball filling adapter. Parts supply should exist and be available to the user. The Gauntlet has 3 orings in the rifle body, under pressure, but they are assaulted by multiple sharp edges upon installation. The rest of the orings are in the regulator, a widely used model of regulator. Other seals in the rifle are also shaved by edges and difficult to obtain, which is also true, anecdotally, of hard parts for the gauntlet. The reason an Air Arms costs more than a gauntlet extends much further than the fit and finish, its reliable, accurate and rarely needs service based on my experience (but it does have the weird adapter…).
    Not being a big bore or replica shooter, no help from me.
    It really annoys me that a warranted airgun that fails, requires me to pay to return something, to fix that something, that the manufacturer said wouldn’t fail while in warranty (especially if it isn’t fixed the first time). Shipping isn’t cheap. Umarex and Hatsan come to mind…

  5. Thank you Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier) for telling us what you like. I find that rather interesting! 🙂

    I agree on disagreeing with some “… of this stuff.” For example, manufacturers listening to us? Sorry, but I don’t think so! 🙂

    I believe that they may be interested in the wisdom of ‘The Godfather Of Airguns’ but not the comments and conversations that do not contain such. And that’s fine by me because I would rather talk to you! 🙂

    ————–
    Now to “What makes ’em good?”
    Simple! Airguns are like a box of shoes: you never know how they’re gonna fit! 🙂

    If they don’t, they’re awful, if they do, they go far. 🙂

  6. Dear Airgun Manufacturers,

    I am an old curmudgeon. Most of the time I prefer an air rifle that has more classic lines or looks. Forget the Mattelomatic. Forget the bullpup. Forget pistol grips and thumbholes. Synthetic stocks do not bother me as long as they are “solid” and not cheap, “hollow” things.

    1. Triggers – I have pulled quite a few different ones in my day. Single stage triggers can be nice, IF they are light, smooth and crisp. I have some real nice ones, but they reside on old airguns. It seems to me that a nice single stage trigger is a lost art.

    Two stage triggers can be soooo nice. I have pulled some really nice ones and some really horrible ones. BB’s description of a nice two stage trigger is spot on.

    2. Spring-Piston Airguns – Forget the velocity and power race. Buy your engineering department the HW30 and HW50. If you want an under lever, look at the TX200 line. I you want a side lever, look at the FWB300.

    If you feel the need to dabble with the gas-spring, look at the Theoben. I personally would like it to be adjustable, but so many idiots chase after velocity and power and end up ruining them. I would like it to be rebuildable though.

    3. PCPs – These need to have the nicest triggers and superb accuracy (at least 1 MOA). A low fill pressure, 2000 – 3000 PSI is best. I do not need multi-shot, semi or selective fire. I do not need or want a regulator. As BB said, give me a good balanced valve. Smooth, easy cocking is a requirement. I do not care if it is bolt action, side lever or under lever.

    I own a Maximus. Awesome fill pressure. Somewhat decent accuracy. Lousy trigger. This is a work in progress. I am hoping to give it decent accuracy and a nice trigger.

    I also own an AirForce Talon SS. Decent trigger, nice accuracy, nice fill pressure.

    4. Big Bore – I used to own a .357 HM1000X. It was a superb bench rifle. I now own an AirForce Texan LSS in .457. Decent trigger. Decent accuracy. Decent fill pressure. Single shot.

    5. Replicas – I do not care for them and do not have any.

    6. Quality – BB did not mention this, but I require it. I have an air rifle that is well over one hundred years old, a 1906 Lincoln Jeffries Model BSA. Will what you are building/importing/selling be around one hundred years from now? If so, I might be interested.

    7. Sights – Another thing BB did not touch on. Lose the fiber optics. They are fine for quick “gut” shots, but lousy for any kind of accuracy shooting.

    As for myself I really like the old-style sights. The slim front sight with a “bead” on top and a rear v notch sight. The bead is not necessary, but the rear v notch helps to align the front sight better and the bead on a slim front sight helps to find the proper elevation.

    Good quality peep sights are awesome!

    I do not care for the thick, blocky, square front sight or big, square rear notch. They are fine on pistols for quick, close-range work, but not so good for long shots.

    8. Scopes – If you are not going to put a decent scope in the package, do not bother.

  7. Agree, a topic like this deserves a weekend of thought. I just read this at 3AM and am off to bed for some sleep with a full day of work ahead of me tomorrow. Perhaps some advance notice on these thought-provoking blogs.

  8. B.B.

    You flatter us when you say that airgun manufacturers listen to use. Wish they would….
    I just want manufacturers to make a quality, precision product. Something that they can give to their grandkids. Please do not waste our precious natural resources making landfill junk!

    -Y

    • Yogi,

      I agree with you. I do not have any grandkids. But if I did, I would buy them classic vintage air guns (Crosman 101 or 180, Diana 27 / Winchester 427, and so on). They outlasted their original owners and their children. Now their grandchildren have enjoyed them for a time and are looking to sell them to someone to pass them on to their grandkids.

      Michael

  9. Tom,

    “What makes a good replica airgun?”

    Many of my air guns , especially air pistols, are replicas of iconic firearms. To me there are many obvious important criteria, but one criterion that I hear about only occasionally and which manufacturers get wrong quite often is they make the wrong replica.

    Good replicas of iconic firearms must be of the specific iconic model. An example of a replica that blows it is the Umarex Colt SAA Peacemaker. The oddball short barrel and 7 1/2 inch barrel models are fun shooters, but the iconic models are the 5 1/2, which they offer, and the 4 3/4, which they have never offered and I have long given up waiting for. As a result the best two air gun replicas I have of the Colt SAA do not include my Umarex (yes, I have one — just one). My best Colt SAA replicas are my vintage Crosman/Hahn 45 and my Daisy 179, both 4 3/4 inchers.

    Not coincidentally (I think) I consider Umarex replica of the S & W M29 to be another miss, not a hit. Except for the United States they issued the 44 magnum bruiser in three lengths, 8 incher, 6 incher, and shorty. The United States gets only the 8 incher. Apparently Umawrecks thinks the United States isn’t into guns as much as the rest of the world, and they no doubt consider Smith & Wesson to be unknown and unappreciated by Americans.

    What does it matter, one might ask? Anyone who know why the M29 is iconic understands that it is its depiction in film, not its quick handling and light recoil. But those who refer to Umarex’ M29 replica as the “Dirty Harry gun” are wrong. The Umarex release (in the United States) is the “Travis Bickle Gun.” Harry = 6 incher. Travis = 8 incher. It’s the difference between “Make my day.” and “Are you talkin’ to me?”

    Michael

  10. I think BB has nailed it in the other categories, but in terms of replicas, I’d like to be able to obtain spares! I’ve been lucky so far that I haven’t suffered any breakages, but it’s always at the back of my mind that if a cheap part fails, my £200 replica is turned into an expensive paperweight! It would be even better if they weren’t made from cheap materials in the first place.
    Also, I’d prefer not to be having to pay 50 to 100% more for guns in the UK than the rest of the world!

  11. BB

    I must like them all. I own examples of each except for big bores which for me would require going to a rifle range. I have firearms which outgun any big bores I’ve heard about.

    One breakbarrel feature has not been mentioned that I wish was available as an option for all breakbarrels; a barrel locking lever like my Walther LGV Olympia.

    Deck

    • My ten year old LGV Master in .22 is by far my favorite spring piston rifle. Installed the metal “tuning” trigger and a Williams Full Proof target peep sight. The breech locking lever is genius. Shame Walther no longer makes piston rifles.

  12. Deck
    What exactly do you mean? The LGV I mention in my comment above and the HW 35 have a barrel locking lever. And the HW 35 is currently produced. That Export model is always in my heart.
    If you mean that this feature should be available for every break barrel then you must consider the cost. No way.

  13. The first thing that I would ask the airgun manufacturers to list the FOOT POUNDS of ENERGY (FPE) in their advertising. Most people have figured our that the velocity claims are just marketing smoke&mirrors.

    Beeman used to list the (realistic) group size that can be expected in their catalogs, would be nice to see that. Better still would be to say how far the airgun could (consistently) shoot 10 shots in a 1 inch circle.

    Per #3, PCPs.

    I feel that like automatic transmissions in cars, regulators offer the best solution for the general shooting public. The typical shooter doesn’t own a chronograph, has no idea of bell-curves and is perfectly happy to just fill the tank as needed to keep the needle in the green area of the guage. …Put it in “D” and go.

    For more serious shooters, the ability for the owner to tune to a particular projectile (without having to disassemble the airgun) is important for performance. To be able take advantage of what is ammunition available, to try new projectiles or to change the power level to suit the needs requires access to regulator and hammer spring adjustments. Please allow for that.

    I still love my HW100 but have to admit that 30 shots @33 fpe, per 200 bar fill is pretty anemic compared to current PCP performance …the airgun world is changing and I have a new favorite. The power of modern PCPs has more than doubled in the last 10 years – .22 caliber has gone from 30 fpe to over 60 pushing its performance. This level of performance needs lots of air. IMHO, it’s time to get with the program – larger and higher pressure reservoirs/tanks are needed.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Hank

    • Hank
      I agree with the power level being a published standard, not velocity. Fpe or joules. After all we don’t buy cars with rpm as a standard.
      On the other hand PCPs with high pressure tanks, when easily regulated, can be filled with a pump to any level. So, besides the higher cost, everyone can have his personal adjusted platform. If only it’s simply and quality made.
      I am with you in these two subjects.

  14. B.B. has summed it up nicely.

    IF airgun manufacturers are listening, I would strongly encourage them to become intimately familiar with airgun history. Look at the older models and see what aftermarket parts are still available to keep these classics running. IF there are aftermarket parts available then the gun is sought after enough and still shot enough to justify “someone” out there to make these parts. These are the models you should be paying attention to.

    The Crosman Mark I/II pistols are a good example. Look at not only parts availability for rebuilding BUT also look at the significant aftermarket modifications that are available for older airguns. This could indicate a new model demand that incorporates these modifications directly from the factory. Older model springers like Weihrauch, FWB (300, 124, etc.) are also still going strong 60 years later because of aftermarket parts availability. This path of history is a good blueprint for what is still in demand from airgunners today.

    Wood and metal please when possible.

    If you plan on a retail price above $400 your spring gun better be accurate. 1” at 30 yards should be the norm. Put a provision for a scope stop on your rails. Make the trigger truly adjustable. Pay attention to cocking effort on your break barrel spring guns and make it proportional to the energy the gun produces. Get rid of fiber optic sights and put a front sight on your guns that accepts interchangeable inserts.

  15. 1.PCP
    My choice with options I want is already waiting in the wings – The Avenge-X with conventional wood stock. YouTubes abound!

    2 SCOPE

    Also in the wings /announced but not available in the USA (so far at least) is the new BugBuster 3-9X36( not 32!)
    Lookee here:
    https://www.utgtaiwan.com/media/pdf/Leapers,%20Inc.%202020%20Catalog%20-%20Optics.pdf
    (scroll down to page 028 …page numbers in lower left bottom corners of pages)

    I plan to order both for an excellent combo when USA available 🙂
    Eagerly awaiting blog articles/discussion on these two contenders!

    Anyone else excited?
    CBS

    • CBS,

      Yes – excited! …You make me smile!

      I can relate, I’ve been in the same mode, “excited and looking at contenders” for the past two months while waiting for things to be in stock and available.

      I’m at the “bouncing off the walls” stage now as the last piece is due to be delivered tomorrow! 🙂

      Cheers,
      Hank

  16. FM’s limited experience in air gunnery fortunately means comments/suggestions will also be limited.

    1) All airguns come with at least decent, adjustable fixed sights.
    2) Adjustable Rekord-like triggers; have not found it necessary to adjust the ones in the HW30 and HW95 which says something about Weihrauch’s attention to the devil in the details, methinks.
    3) This may be a little too much to ask but how about including comprehensive users’ manuals which include instructions allowing owners to carry out at least simple repairs, including re-sealing, for those brave and skilled enough to do so?
    4) Related to 3, include a set of suitable basic tools of good enough quality to do necessary maintenance and repairs. This could be offered as an extra-cost option. Some automakers do or have done this.

    Certainly all this would be more expensive but should be an option as opposed to “build cheap to throw away as needed.” At least dreaming and hoping are free.

    • FM,

      Of all my airguns (1/2 dozen brands) only my Feinwerkbau P8x came with a set of the special tools needed to make adjustments to the grip.

      I assemble tool kits for each of my airguns that includes all the Allan keys and fitted screwdriver bits for that airgun. I also make a point of downloading a soft copy of the user’s manual, parts list, exploded view diagrams, and applicable maintenance videos. I have files of notes pertaining to any special tweaks, mods or maintenance that I find on the forums or YouTube.

      Some airgun manufacturers support their customers by releasing videos on installing upgrades, accessories and doing routine maintenance for those who are so inclined.

      Hank

      • Good idea; at least after acquiring a couple of “pieces,” got motivated to purchase what one could refer to as a “beginner’s” gunsmithing tool kit which no doubt will expand over time. It has already helped with some minor fixes and tweaks. Miss the days when some manufacturers included actually useful manuals with good explanations for maintenance and minor repair procedures. Case in point illustrated by some of the instructions in the user’s manual for FM’s late and lamented ’67 Beetle.

  17. BugBuster question related to above drooling:Is it possible/how is it done, To order an item (scope) FROM OVERSEAS, when there are no USA distributors offering the item?

    Thanks for ideas!

    • I hope this is not a repeat, …lost a reply somehow.

      REPLICAS/REISSUES

      Don’t say this is “your father’s Oldsmobile”, if it has a sunroof and a Chevy hood ornament.
      I’m miffed that the new/old Daisy Red Ryder does NOT have the original swivel-muzzle fill tube cover. Instead it has a hole in the side of the round “barrel”, which makes it much easier to spill BB’s when loading.

      BARREL DROOP

      Get rid of it. I’m surprised at the shoulder-shrugging “Oh well, what’re you gonna do?” attitude that seems to be the reaction of customers, at this blog and elsewhere, about this issue. It seems to me a rather tepid response, when voting with our wallets might be more effective in encouraging manufacturers to improve things.

      We live in an age of precision design and manufacturing. If a scope with decent adjustments can’t overcome the degree of misalignment, seems to me the product is unacceptable.

      Here is a comment from a Leapers/UPG page:
      ” UTG also manufactures adapters to convert from 11mm to Weaver and unique drooper mounts that help correct barrel droop, which can occur in air rifles and firearms.”

      Special drooper mounts?, Shims? How about some manufacturing tolerance standards?

      I know BB has addressed this issue, probably a number of times,…Still bugs me though!

  18. BB
    I understand your disapproval of installing a picatinny rail on a M1 Carbine replica. Especially if it comes with it already installed. It’s not a replica anymore. And, just never mind the fact that it never had a double stack looking magazine. 😉
    It’s like doing something as dumb installing a quad rail on a stock AR-15 A2. Just kidding, but there is a solution. Purchase the M1, or AR in its original form and then get a bolt-on rail replacement to make it more user friendly and tactacool.
    You can always put it back to original condition. Or … simply buy two of them, like I did. Keep one original and modify the other.
    Did that with my P08. Installed white grips on one of my airgun replicas. Think it was the one with the high gloss finish and ‘gold’ extractor. Not original, but very nice looking.

  19. B.B., Readership and Airgun Manufacturer’s,

    1. Triggers: single stage for hunting/pesting (can be two stage if ability to eliminate first stage through user adjustment possible.) approximate range of 2-3.5 pound trigger.
    For target rifles under 1.5 pounds pull weight and fully adjustable two stage.
    General purpose airguns a legal trigger under 5 pounds.
    General trigger comments: NO automatic Safeties unless legal requirements make it mandatory to allow sales in country/location of use. Modular trigger groups that can be upgraded as a unit.
    Spring Piston: If break barrel is capable of mounting optics NO DROOP! NONE, NADA, NIX!
    GAS SPRING ADJUSTABLE by user.
    NO torque if a coil spring.
    Scope stop for dovetail or 1913 PICATINNY RAIL with COVERS/GUARDS for looks and hand comfort.
    Good PCP: FILL AIR Pressure under 250BAR/3,626PSI
    (Read up about the gas laws and compressibility of air.)
    BIG BORE:
    Hunting use then a BALANCED VALVE to deliver 2-5 full power shots per fill.
    NO repeaters!
    Sling attachment (SOLID) points as optional order items.
    Bolt action with separate cocking handle if required to deal with heavy cocking or very functional side lever. Decocking/Unloading capability. Manual SAFETY only.
    In .30 caliber 200 FP/271Nm as minimum. As the caliber increases as much power as buyer desires (to pay for) while maintaining accuracy/precision.
    Weather resistant finish for furniture and action; wood, synthetic, metal chassis systems.
    Long Range Target Big Bores (repeaters are okay as are regulators and match triggers.) should meet or exceed match/contest minimum performance standards while remaining legal within the/any official rules.
    Youth Airguns: QUALITY build, platform ADJUSTABILITY as users grow, EASY TO LEARN, and USE without adult direct physical assistance.
    Airguns in general: specific model Owners Manual.
    Ability to buy/order specific airgun tools and parts.
    Workshop Manual (hardcopy and/or other media) available to order for specific model and an automatic update subscription program.

    shootski has many more great ideas but Manufacturers will need to negotiate my consulting fees/benefits prior to any additional work! Contact information available through Tom Gaylord ;^)

    shootski

  20. B.B. and Readership,

    The problem in waiting to write after work late in the day is that all the good ideas have been delivered. Just the same, a few lose notes:

    PCPs: In the same role played by the HW30S or Diana 27 in the springer world, I would like to see a light and (relatively) short and low power PCP, and for the same use as the above mentioned rifles: fun, plinking, informal target shooting and light pesting.

    My goal would be an adjustable power level from 7 to 12 fpe. One advantage for the manufacturer of something like this is the ability to penetrate markets where high power is restricted and just one product. Personally I would like it in .177 but a .22 shuld be offered.

    In addition to the basics already mentioned (trigger, fill pressure and probe, accuracy, metal), my preferences would include: side lever, optical sights (metal) and for mounting optics a picatinny rail and low magazine. Also, an externally adjustable regulator (someone mentioned automatic transmission).

    Finally, instructions (understandable in the language of the country where it is sold) for maintenance and spare parts.

    A Marlin 336 semi-replica with all the above? Hmmm.

    Henry

    • Henry
      Now that’s an interesting innovation. A western style PCP lever action. A 24″ barrel, say 16mm od, could be paired with an equal dimensions air tube below. Approximately 90cc. Steel and wood, 220 bars max. Peep and front hood with inserts sights.
      That could be enough for a dozen of good shots. It could be a beautiful replica, useful, if quality made, for pesting, plinking and target shooting.
      I will pay for something like this.

      • Bill, have you looked at the precharged pneumatic lever action called “Air Venturi Seneca Eagle Claw” yet? 🙂

        Alternatively, my CO2 lever action long arms come close in other ways, especially looks. 🙂

  21. I have never understood all the fuss over triggers.

    Yes, a trigger that breaks cleanly and consistently is preferable to one that is mushy and has lots of creep, but I find I can manage fine with pretty much any trigger on a plinker or sporter that when I squeeze it the gun goes bang.

    I have found that the trigger doesn’t affect accuracy much as long as I squeeze it slowly and hold the gun steady.

    As an example, I have owned a total of five Hatsan springers over the years. Three of them had the fancy Quattro trigger and the other two were cheaper models with the simple Gamo-style trigger.

    Both of the Gamo-style triggers were very mushy. One of them had so much overtravel that the trigger blade almost disappeared up into the action before the sear would trip. But guess what, both of the Hatsans with those horrible triggers outshot the other three with the fancy Quattro triggers. My Scopebuster 3000 has a Quattro trigger but I can hardly hit a dinner plate with it at 25 yards.

    I compete in 10m air rifle and appreciate that ultra-light, ultra-cleanbreaking match triggers are of utmost importance in that situation, but in a plinker or sporter I’m just not too bothered about the triggers. Anyway, that’s just my tuppence worth.

    By the way, something else I don’t quite understand is shooters who think the most important thing about a scope is the optical quality.

    Some of them go on and on about how wonderful the “glass” is on such and such a scope, and how little the chromatic aberration is, et cetera. It’s as if they were buying a scope to admire the colours of the rabbit or squirrel they are going to shoot!

    If I can see what I am aiming with the scope better than I can with my bare eyes, then the “glass” is good enough for me.

    A scope is an aiming device. The important thing is that it holds zero, and tracks consistently when adjusted.

    That makes fourpence worth, so I better stop now 😉

    • Bob Ryan,

      Although I have had some really bad triggers (mostly on bullpups) that i couldn’t do anything about i made them work for me; so I get what you mean.
      However, IF, a trigger can be made to work/feel “better” I’m all for that. “I have found that the trigger doesn’t affect accuracy much as long as I squeeze it slowly and hold the gun steady.” True, except making that trigger work distracts from doing the mental work on hitting cleanly an animal at distance in my experience. More on that discussion in scope glass below.

      “Some of them go on and on about how wonderful the “glass” is on such and such a scope, and how little the chromatic aberration is, et cetera. It’s as if they were buying a scope to admire the colours of the rabbit or squirrel they are going to shoot!”
      “A scope is an aiming device. The important thing is that it holds zero, and tracks consistently when adjusted.” Fundamentally true. But scopes are called on to do more when hunting. Even when glassing with binoculars and spotting scopes when the hunting rules/laws require a certain antler size/count (and other difficult to see features at distance (think out in Western USA, Australia, or savana in Africa) when you go from spotting to shooting you need to be certain you put the cross hair on the same animal. Game Wardens don’t take poor scope excuses well!
      If I can see what I am aiming with the scope better than I can with my bare eyes, then the “glass” is good enough for me.”
      I hunt at first and last light; if legal i also hunt at night.
      All of the urban deer herd culls i do invariably happen at night. When i’m looking through my scope i need to see more than just the aimpoint i need to see well beyond my target to be certain NOTHING is behind or around my target. For that reason alone my Glass had better be above average glass and not let me fail to see a clueless someone walking through the urban park that missed the signs and notices.
      I also believe that responsibility should apply to every other hunter/pester day or night.
      Just my Swarovski Crystals worth!

      shootski

        • Gunfun1,

          It may sound like hunting but it isn’t.
          I got together with a wildlife biologist at a military installation that had a BIG BUMBI (what i call urban deer.) problem. The facility had been mostly wooded buffer around live training areas. But the training moved elsewhere and the offices nd buildings came in there place…the BUMBI herd stayed and flourished eating Burger King/Panda Express delicacies year-round and Commissary dumped “spoiled” produce (military grocery store) provided an even better balanced diet. The BUMBI were soon eating the wonderful desserts provided by the Commanding Officer’s flowerbeds.
          They tried opening up to hunting with firearms and even bows from treestands but it didn’t work out well. On a chance kayak paddle i talked with the biologist nd told him about trying a Nautical Twilight timed cull with a suppressed airgun. He asked for a demonstration of the airgun. He had a deer carcass and at 100 yards i demonstrated what the .308 130 grain Lead pill could do. After 5 shots he said wow.
          A week later we basically walked to the edge of the woods and he picked a BUMBI and I dispatched it. The rest of the herd just stood there so i asked him if he wanted another culled. To make a too long story shorter we culled five BUMBI in under 10 minutes minutes and I needed to refill.
          I use a backpack and regulated tethered Guppy bottle now and can get 10-11 shots all at full power. It takes 16+ inches of suppressor but the impact is louder than the muzzle report.
          Wildlife Biologist have friends! If i were younger I could work almost any night.
          A really good scope is needed to work with the urban sky glow but in most places the light is just like Civil Twilight or Civil Dusk all night long.
          It isn’t hunting by any stretch of the imagination.

          shootski

      • shootski,

        There is no questioning your much appreciated and extensive sharing of information and thinking here on this blog.

        Still, something about this quoted phrase gave me pause:
        “…clueless someone walking through the urban park that missed the signs and notices.”

        The someone, perhaps walking his dog in an unfamiliar “urban park”, at night (!), having failed to notice whatever notices were on site, could , I think, be accurately described as ignorant, or unaware, without the often derogatory “clueless”being applied. Particularly when the punishment for his oversight ( or hers, or the kids’) could be death, resulting from, someone shooting in an “urban park”(?) at night(!?).

        I’ve read the post below describing the excess of “bumbis”, and find myself wondering if the deer are so numerous as to require culling, could not a reasonably effective culler be successful with the advantage of daylight, …while enjoying the added benefit of clearer discernment of “clueless ” individuals?

        Somehow, to me, “Shooting at night”, and “urban park” seem not to belong together.

        “He was clueless” and/or “I didn’t have a good-enough scope”
        do not seem adequate as explanations(excuses), should things turn out badly.
        Guess I would have had to be there, to understand the rationale.
        CBS

        • CBS,
          You wrote:
          “…myself wondering if the deer are so numerous as to require culling…”

          Somehow, to me, “Shooting at night”, and “urban park” seem not to belong together.

          “He was clueless” and/or “I didn’t have a good-enough scope”

          Some answers:

          I have no idea where you live but on the East Coast the extent of the urban whitetail deer problem is easily seen along every parkway, suburban road, and many a downtown street. The few hunters remaining East of the Blue Ridge/Allegheny Mountains can not keep up with the influx of wildlife especially the explosion of Whitetail. The habitat of that wildlife is not in any way shape or form ideal. For the deer there is but one predator currently and that is the automobile. Unfortunately there are usually people in those predator vehicles who are frequently injured, maimed for life, or killed.
          I call your attention to my statement about the WHY of using the best glass instead of just being able to see the target as Bob Ryan said: “…not let me fail to see a clueless someone walking through the urban park that missed the signs and notices.
          I also believe that responsibility should apply to every other hunter/pester day or night.”
          Please note my use of clueless was not meant in the derogatory meaning. I meant it as a citizen should be able to be IF they miss the posted signs and media notifications that a Park or portion of an urban park is closed for a cull and NOT find themselves a victim for their not being aware of the exclusion zone. As far as what else is done: spotters located within an exclusion zone a much smaller area of the posted as closed park; a SAFETY buffer as it were. Night Vision would be wonderful but it doesn’t work well in the amazingly bright urban light pollution. On a cull the shooter has a Spotter assigned that has a thermal capability but those also have limits for accurate detection in the urban heat island. As I mentioned with a really good scope and the utterly conservative approach I demand is perhaps a far better solution then the firearms that were used earlier. If there were no other positive(s) the deer can be taken in a much shorter closing since they typically do not bolt on the first cull shot; that lowers the time of exposure significantly.
          Daytime hunts only compound, dramatically, the number of potential folks coming into the closed park. The background noise of an urban area makes detection of deer and inadvertent human visitors almost impossible. Also, urban deer bed down and move even less than country & woodland deer in the daytime.

          shootski

  22. Hi3
    I know a thing or two about these Korean airguns… What I described is a combination of the two guns you mention. The Walther for its styling and quality and the Seneca or Sam Yang formerly, for the action design. But the whole thing must be quality made and authentic looking.

  23. As Henry said, at the end of the day most things I would say have been said. I will offer these comments:

    The use of regulators:
    I have often advised against the purchase of a regulated gun for the casual shooter or “one gun owner,” due to the added complexity and failure points they provide. But I have to agree with Hank that, when working right, they do make for a very repeatable and easy shooting experience. And as a more experienced PCP owner that can do my own maintenance, all but one of my seven PCPs are regulated, so I clearly like them. So I will side with Hank but add that information must be provided so that the average shooter can clearly tell if all is well – and what to do when it is not, as will eventually happen. To that end, I would want to see gauges for both regulated and non-regulated airspace – since pretty much every manufacturer’s lawyers will insist on a gauge for the max fill pressure, but the most useful gauge is the one that can show how the regulator is responding. This regulated space gauge should be in a place that it easy to see while shooting, and the instructions for the gun should clearly state what to look for and what to do if creep begins to occur.

    I will add that regulators are great in that they also make the max fill pressure a secondary concern – if the regulator is set at a reasonably low pressure, a high fill simply provides more shots. On does not need to fill the gun all the way to use it. As an extreme example, the Huben K1 can take a 350 bar (~5000 psi) fill, but since they are regulated well below that (and very few owners have pumps that even go that high) very few guns see that level. Mine is almost always filled to below 4000 psi, and I get tons of shots anyways as the regulator is set at under 1500 psi – I’d even get a usable number of shots from a 3000 psi fill, if I ever have to revert to my hand pump vs. my tank. In truth, it is kind of nice to know that I can’t overfill that gun . . . .

    Triggers:
    I agree with everything that Tom wrote, but I want to add one thing: There needs to be an adjustment of control of the travel of the second stage of the trigger to limit movement AFTER the sear breaks. A two-stage trigger can be set to what is an otherwise perfect setting, but extra travel will limit the capability of the trigger. My favorite trigger in of any of my guns is on my Daystate Air Ranger, because in addition to being set to my ideal weight and with a second stage that “breaks like a glass rod”, I was able to adjust the position of the trigger guard to act as a stop such that the travel after the sear breaks is less than about a half a millimeter. Just perfect . . . so include that level of adjustment or control and we will be thrilled!

    General comment:
    Any “feature” that is added over the basic function of the gun should be executed flawlessly, such that it does not limit the gun in any way. We all learn to love features that make things better without any compromise to base functions (and most people eventually demand them) – the best example of this is heated steering wheels on vehicles: once you’ve experienced them in a cold climate, they are hard to live without. An example in the air gun space is that at least a few have said there is no need for magazines or repeaters on big bores. I think the reason people feel like that is that, in addition to feeling that they don’t need them, most of them end up limiting the gun in some way like length of projectile that can be used. If there was no detriment to their use, then people would eventually insist on having them. So that is the key – flawless execution with respect to both the feature, and its impact on the basic functions of the gun.

    AlanMcD

    • “So that is the key – flawless execution with respect to both the feature, and its impact on the basic functions of the gun.”
      AlanMcD, I wish I’d been smart enough to say something that cool and sophisticated; well done! 🙂

    • AlanMcD,

      Enjoyed reading your “late” entry very much.
      Your take on regulators is well considered and your recommendations are good ones.
      I think fill maximal fill pressure is where i find a partial disagreement. ” As an extreme example, the Huben K1 can take a 350 bar (~5000 psi) fill, but since they are regulated well below that (and very few owners have pumps that even go that high) very few guns see that level. Mine is almost always filled to below 4000 psi, and I get tons of shots anyways as the regulator is set at under 1500 psi – I’d even get a usable number of shots from a 3000 psi fill, if I ever have to revert to my hand pump vs. my tank. In truth, it is kind of nice to know that I can’t overfill that gun . . . .” I think with air fill pressures over 250BAR/3,625PSI the added minimal shot count is not worth the added cost/risk/maintenance issues and of the containment requirements. IF using a light(er) more compressable gas then perhaps a higher pressure fill will be worth the above mentioned factors. I just havent seen a good enough case made for it.
      I have a sneaking suspicion that we are seeing a begining to the PCP MAXIMUM FILL PRESSURE wars?!?!
      Your take on the requirement for: “Any “feature” that is added over the basic function of the gun should be executed flawlessly, such that it does not limit the gun in any way. … – flawless execution with respect to both the feature, and its impact on the basic functions of the gun.” I can endorse without reservation. One of the reasons I may not buy the FX PANTHERA is the seeming lack of a minor machine operation in the magazine area that would allow single loading of longer THAN 1/2″ long) projectiles…DUH FX! ANd while I’m brow beating them…they need to be working on NO Lead barrels THAT WORK and projectiles Bullets (slugs) that work.

      shootski

      • Shootski
        Got to comment here with the regulator talk.

        Wonder how a regulator would work on a low pressure shop compressor air gun?

        Wonder if anyone here has thought of going there with thier low air pressure air gun they made?

          • B.B.,

            I think a reservoir regulator(s) to valve on 250+BAR PCPs is understood by most PCP users.
            The Very Low pressure PCPs need a stable pressure that a regulator can supply but not directly to the TP/barrel but instead to what we used to call a metering accumulator (now called a Power Plenum or just Plenum) because the volume (Mass) of air, as you know, is one of the major keys to PCP stable performance and power.
            Since the PCP, unlike the Spring Piston, only has a (hopefully balanced or electronically controlled valve) it needs to have a Mass metered (provided by swept volume of the power cylinder in the Springer) charge of air for ultimate stability shot to shot.
            As an example think of what happens in a Black Powder gun when the rate of powder burn changes (in airgun the valve balance [dwell] changed causes the pressure to change behind the projectile) or powder charge increased or decreased (in the airgun the Mass [volume of air] is increased or decreased) the projectile stops being pushed by expanding gas and coasts the remaining distance until out of the bore.

            shootski

          • BB
            Thanks for the comment but read Don’s comment below. Looks like he is already on it.

            I really think he is on to something. Wish he would get it sorted out. I want one.

        • GF1,
          If you were referencing my low pressure pellet gun:

          There is a regulator on the compressor, my small 150 psi compressors regulator is very consistent, accurate, and has a narrow pressure variation. I put a pressure gauge on the line by the valve and it matches the set pressure on the compressor. Even with a 1/8 inch line for the last 5 feet to the valve it only takes a moment for the valve to fill, it takes much longer to load another pellet.

          Now if someone put a large canister of air on their back to make the gun portable a regulator would be needed.

          Been fishing more lately and the weather has been poor for shooting, I will be getting back to developing my low pressure airgun as the weather gets better.

          Looking for a piece on small aluminum H or I beam to build the gun on. Too bad I took a load of them to recycling a few years ago.
          Don

          • Don
            I absolutely was referring to your low pressure pellet gun.

            And of course you are already there. 🙂

            Waiting to hear more about it once you get back into it. Great stuff.

      • Shootski,

        Thanks for your comments. I agree with all of them, but I’ll just add that I probably should have been clearer on my high fill pressure comments . . . they were not intended to advocate for pursuing high fill pressures, but more meant to counter Tom’s statement which was actively advocating against them. If they “come along for the ride” – as is clearly the case in the Huben – and are not needed to make the gun achieve basic functionality, then I am fine with them. It is only when the fills have to be very high that I think they are bad . . . If my Huben only could be filled to 3500 psi I would be just as happy with it (maybe not if only to 3000 though).

        Alan

    • Alan,

      I think that regulator design has matured. Agreed that they add complexity but they are a fairly simple device (a spring loaded piston and seal) and are much more reliable now than when they first introduced.

      I guess that the same can be said about the automatic transmissions in cars, they have come a long way. I’ve owned a number of standard transmission vehicles, don’t mind shifting but now prefer automatic transmissions – especially the ones with the performance selector on them.

      My personal experience with 8 PCPs (all regulated) over 10 years and lots of shooting has been good. Zero problems with regulators and of “all those o-rings”, I’ve had to replace one (reservoir to gun o-ring) on one of my HW100s.

      Maybe that why I feel that the benefits of regulators out weigh the potential problems with them.

      Cheers!
      Hank

      • Hank,

        I’ve had a similar experience with regulators, but I did have one Huma that started creeping and it needed a rebuild after about three years – thus my caution on them to the uninitiated. All of the others have been great. As you say, leaks are rare; knock on wood, but my Air Ranger dates to 2011 and is running on the original main seals . . . .

        I think your auto transmission example is a great one – the truth anymore is that even in performance cars the auto trans beats out the manual trans in most attributes. Even in “base” cars in Europe, where manual transmissions were dominant because of better fuel economy, the auto trans is taking over because they are now beating out the manuals even on this attribute (after all, who really wants to shift through a ten speed manual when driving – people will skip shift those and thus get less efficient results).

        Alan

  24. Well BB, you certainly provided manufacturers some feedback. Let’s see what I can add.

    PCP. I do not care for bottles, under the barrel. Personally, I have no need for something that big. I do not plan to chop down a jungle in full auto. Big cal. fine. How about offering an air tube option that can be interchangeable with adapter to make it hug the barrel and look right.
    A dual tube set up, front and in the stock would work in some situations.
    Hide them in some M-Lock hand guard, if tactical. like my original Armada or Invader. I did that to an RAI Marauder I nicknamed ‘Heavy Metal’.
    Try to avoid protruding air pressure gages and servicing points if possible. My Western Sidewinder has a lot of what I don’t care for, but they are outweighed by what I do like.
    My Puncher Armorer is a good example of a well-integrated package. For a Bullpup anyway.
    I am open to a totally new Black Rifle AR design that is not a replica. but there are still a lot of ones left to copy. FN Scar, M14 EBR, Feather 9 mil. or the H7K series, Euro SMGs. Or how about a low-priced fun copy of a fancy10-meter target rifle?

    Springer. The MP7, a powerful pistol that requires an odd-looking silencer to work. Make it a longer carbine conversion with a collapsible stock. Like the Cobray / Ingram? M12 .380 pistol had.
    Replicas, high end or not. Try to avoid assembly screws all over the place. Unless it’s a water gun metal is preferable, but today’s plastic/glass composites are totally acceptable if done right. Hard to tell on the Mini Uzi and some others like the AK1.
    I would like a single, double acting pump lever,1894 if possible. Even If I had to operate the lever more than once for more power. If it’s even possible. Just a thought.

    Pistols and attention to details in general. I had to take a file to a Daisy 5170 and bent metal on another to keep the trigger guard from digging into my middle finger. More much gooder now.
    Avoid plastic flashing down the center of an airgun. Inner barrels that slide back and forth without much compensation seem to be less accurate.
    I also had to file down the FX Independance stock where the web of my hand sat. It was too pointed. The M1 Carbine airgun grip area is much too fat.
    Design a CO2 cartridge chamber that accepts all kinds of “Bottle cap” CO2 cartridges. M1 Carbine mag problem. Or at least identify ones required to use or not.

    I can’t wrap my head around mismatched designs A fully adjustable AR type butt stock, or pistol grip with an ordinary rifle design? Perhaps older guys are not that open minded.

    With all that said, I am very impressed with the improvements, changes, and offerings made to airguns lately. Thank You All!

    • Bob M
      I still liked the metal cartridges that dropped into a Co2 gun that had a foster fill fitting on it to convert a Co2 gun to a pcp.
      I think they messed up offering the extensions to make more volume. All that did was offer a place for a air leak.

      As it goes simple but effective. Get the design right and you can have a winner.

      • GF1, yes, I remember those early PCP days. I know Hatsan sells replacement tubes, but interchangeable with bottles? I’ll have to look into that. If so, it may only be for their airguns.
        I have a Hatsan Barrage, but it is totally designed around a bottle and may look stupid with a tube. Unless I really cut into it. Who knows? I just wish everyone offered the option.

        • Bob M
          With bottles I don’t know about that with the Hatsan air tubes and interchangeability.

          I just ment that you can get extra air tubes that screw right on to thier pcp’s.

  25. I would very much be interested in comments from the many readers who do not regularly comment. You know who you are. I used to be a lurker myself.

    Are you buying into the velocity wars at the big box stores? If you are regularly reading this blog, you have a more than a casual interest in airguns, and realize there is a wide world of current and vintage airguns out there to enjoy, not just the meager offerings at Wally World Mart.

    Are you invested in PCPs and the pumps and compressors needed to keep them shooting?

    What do you want and how much do you think that should cost?

    As for me, I managed to find this blog before succumbing to the marketing hype of, “well if I can get 5u00 fps for a $100, I should spend $50 more and get 1600! What a a value!”

    The last new gun I purchased was a Crosman 362. Think this gun could be the base for a totally modular gun. It needs a barrel with threads for attachments or an option for a barrel with an integral silencer. It needs a steel breech wiyh a peep sight from the factory and an option for a wood stock. Also have an option for a traditional rear sight. It needs and deserves a better trigger. The over travel throws my shots. And please solve the clicketty clack of pumping. You have the technology, Crosman.

    For me, a gun has to be relatively accurate. At least, it has to be more accurate than I am, so I can have the confidence to know that it is not the gun, it’s me. A gun has to be built so that I don’t get frustrated and abandon the hobby because I can’t hit what I’m aiming at.

    I applaud Shootsi for many things, but today, he is the only one who mentioned YOUTH GUNS. The future of our sport! His kids were weaned on Marksman Biathlon springers, synthetic stocked, spring piston, peep sights. We need guns like that but with a solid, adjustable stock (10″ to 13″) and an adjustable comb. so we can fit the gun to the kids and they can focus on learning the fundamentals, not on contortions to see the sights. The gun needs to grow with the kid for a while. Then it needs to last so it’s ready for the kid’s kid, and then the grandkids. You know kids today need instant gratification, and if they can’t hit that can on the first shot, by the 5th miss, you have lost them (and a repeat customer) forever. So make it easy for us parents to teach our kids to love airguns. You are competing against the TV and the iPads!iPad!

    Enough random ruminations for know.

    • Roamin Greco,

      Thank you for the shout-out.
      The two Marksman 1790 Biathlon Trainers are in the hands of the Grandkids; they love them. Your suggested upgrades for them would be fabulous!
      Last week they shot .22 caliber Fortner Action Anschütz BIATHLON rifles https://www.anschuetz-sport.com/en/biathlon/ at Soldier Hollow’s BIATHLON Range for the first time. They loved it!
      Youth are the future of the, shooting sport and hunting for sure. Marksmanship Skills/Ballistics knowledge for girls and boys are at the heart of guaranteeing our Free World’s future.
      Manufacturers need to INVEST in and nurture the seeds of THEIR future success NOW! Profits will come later out of current investments in youth.

      shootski

    • Roamin Greco, thank you for mentioning that the gun should fit the shooter and not the other way around.

      I will add that it should fit the shooter, regardless of her or his age and size!

      ——————–
      Consider the popular little Weihrauch HW30S: for me too, it ticks many boxes, so I bought one…

      … only to discover that I will never use it as I had hoped, ie as an open sight plinker ! 🙁

      For me: The airgun has to fit first for any other feature to matter. 🙂

      ———————-
      Happily, I also bought the HW50S, which, when I shoulder it to take a shot, is immediately lined up with what I am looking at, ie it fits me perfectly, right out of the box (which is rare)! 🙂

      Airguns are like a box of shoes, you never know how they’re gonna fit! 🙂

      • I know exactly what you mean. I recently purchased a lot of three airguns at auction. One is a Diana 350 Magnum T05. It came with a dovetail to Weaver (or Picatinny) droop compensating rail adapter and what looks like medium or high scope rings. I CAN’T see through the scope without taking my cheek way off the stock. So I cut some bubble wrap into strips and wrapped it around the stock to raise it a bit. This is a temporary measure to test the gun, and I can say that at 10 yards so far, it shoots very well, even without the artillery hold! I don’t need 2 powerful .22 sproingers, so now it will be a battle between the Diana 350 and the Walther Terrus. If Diana wins, then I will work on getting the scope mounted lower and eliminating the bubble wrap.

        • Roamin Greco, thank you for your understanding words.
          ——————–
          As for your latest acquisition of airguns, you and I must be very different because I actually like the idea of having a selection of non-identical airguns of the same or similar type. 🙂

          In other words, I genuinely fail to comprehend the desire to establish a loser between your 2 winners.

          • Personally, I agree with you. Not only is it fun buying new and interesting airguns, but buying and building gun cabinets is great too. My wife just doesn’t understand this concept. So I have to make room in the gun cabinet….

            • Roamin Greco, how sad that your wife doesn’t seem to understand. 🙁

              I wonder if we share some similarities? My girlfriend has told me that she actually dislikes guns, all guns!

              But she tolerates mine, because – I believe this – she understands how much pleasure they give me. She likes being around a happy me. 🙂

              I have learnt that, if I tell her my airgun related thoughts and reasonings, her eyes will begin to look tired and she might also suppress the odd yawn. But if I enthuse about how one thing or another makes me feel, she shows interest. 🙂

              Maybe help your wife understand how you trust her with your happiness, eh? 🙂

  26. What would I want manufacturers to know from an airgun curmudgeon?

    1.] I want my airguns to look like airguns and not firearms! If I want a firearm, I’ll buy one. I don’t want to be rolled into the firearm lobby as one shameful insanity after another takes place in the nation AND the momentum comes to end the shooting sports or SEVERELY curtail it. I want distance, insofar as it is possible between my air arms and firearms (probably an hopeless endeavor?).

    2.] I want triggers that are both sensitive and smooth. I have had miserable triggers (being pointedly represented by the UMAREX Trevox pistol) and they make shooting misery. That is particularly true for airguns with long “lock times” where holding the sight picture is disturbed by a bad, demanding trigger.

    3.] I want sights that are made with small tolerances and with clear markings of windage and elevation adjustment directions. Here, the Benjamin Trail pistol was the poster child of what not to do, seconded only by the Trevox (c.f. above). The front sight blade to be taken to the wheel grinder and cut down by half to get “in the black.” Did ANYONE even pick up one of those things off the assembly line in China and try to shoot it? The geometry was ALL WRONG.

    The Trevox sights started out well, but the sloppiness in them made them useless. Interestingly, the supplied rear notch on my RWS/Diana 340 Luxus was horrible (Diana! How could you??). The problem was the hinge that replaced the recurved single piece of spring steel of my earlier RWS/Dianas; it allowed too much play and inaccuracy (to the point that I thought the gun was bad until I took a 1989 RWS rear sight and put it on the 340 Luxus and it instantly went to the 9 and 10 rings).

    Manufacturers, if you can’t make a trigger or a sight system, just STOP. No matter how good everything else is, or how pretty, or how durable, you’ve just made an expensive club, NOT an air arm.

    3.] As a springer devotee, put a muzzle weight on your air rifles with provision for a front sight. Having a blob of weight WAY out front induces polar inertia that helps steady an air rifle during the lock time. That also makes for a nice hand grip for cocking them. Putting the front sight in a tunnel also protects it from the cocking action.

    4.] Williams Peep Sights are probably the best thing for springers. I’ve tended to install them instead of scopes because of the violence of a magnum making hash of all that glass and stuff. Given the limited range of air arms, unless one is really into field target-like disciplines, a peep is just about perfect for shooting (at least mine). Why not start out with peep sights? I’d pay for a properly engineered/chosen peep at point of purchase since it would preclude having to figure that out on the Williams webpage.

    5.] Springer manufacturers, can you figure out how to make your fasteners stay put? I understand the violence of springers not unlike a steel wheeled hay wagon on a rutted road, but there has to be a way to keep fasteners together short of RED Locktite.

    6.] Hatsan, I’m looking at you! Control your bore sizes! And…pellet makers, you get a glance, too! Put your head size on the tins. My Hatsan 135 in .25 was a testament to stubborn perseverance to find an oversized pellet to fit its wildly oversized bore. Pyramyd AIR, and other distributors, maybe it’s time to add bore measurements to your Specification lists? I’ve come to NOT believe the caliber statements on various air arms manufactuerers.

    7.] Lastly, to you in Jung-Gwo! I know that Chinese manufacture can be the top of the food chain! I know your forebears made the Terra Cotta Army and Ming Vases. You can build highly technical things in large quantities that are world class….SO….CLEAN YOUR DARNED BORES on your air arms after you’ve machined them! I think I’ve found copies of a book by Chairman Mao, parts of the Three Rivers Dam, and overburden from the Great Wall in my Chinese-made air arms. Just clean ’em out, spray in a thin coating of protective oil and ship ’em – I don’t need part of your soil too.

    8.] Hatsan, I know you Turks have been around a long, long, long time. Like the Chinese. YOU TOO need to clean out your bores (and control their actual sizes) BEFORE you ship. Your products are creeping up on the Germans, so GET THERE….

    9.] Champion, I really like my Bullet/Pellet Trap. It has served me well for most of two decades. I will NEVER wear it out. But…have you ever compared the “mouth” of your trap to the size of standard multi-bull target sheets? I’d pay for a scaled-UP trap! While you are at it, make the pellet reservoir at tad deeper, please!

    10.] Air Arms Mail Order Merchants: Pyramyd AIR, Air Gun Depot, Airguns of Arizona, et. al. I suspect that there is some communication between yourselves as friendly competitors in the US market. Would it behoove the airgun community to have an air arms specific safety course developed that would be accessible to shooters via the internet? Distance learning for our community, in other words, with a certfication of completion at the end in a common database for all merchants and course completion persons? I’m thinking of the future as the public becomes increasingly incensed about the criminal gun violence in the country. Could we begin a kind of segregation of our sport from that of the firearm community that has a REAL PROBLEM on its hands because of wackos, criminals, and suicidal folks? That might stand us in good stead if it finally occurs that Draconian limitations are imposed on the shooting sports so we can carve out a niche of exemption or at least moderation from those powder burners?

    • LFranke,

      Totally agree until this: “Could we begin a kind of segregation of our sport from that of the firearm community that has a REAL PROBLEM on its hands…”
      It ISN’T the firearm ‘community’ that has the problem it is a Society that has come off its Railcar Trucks, NOT derailed, but totally off the Trucks!
      WE Shooters don’t need SEGREGATION or APARTHEID!
      If we don’t stand together for the shooting/hunting sports we will surely fall DIVIDED.

      shootski

      • Of course society has a real problem on its hands! The social values that prohibited the kind of arms violations that are on-going today have eroded with a loss of religious centers, social consciousness, rabid individualism and all the rest of the rot. It’s not like there were not arms in the citizenry heretofore; what has changed is the social fecklessness of how to deal with it.

        We CAN’T stand together with all arms owners. We CAN stand together with those who would seek rational controls and limits on arms, of course. You and I both know that there are folks who should NEVER have access to arms, let alone a spoon. We must discriminate and disapprove of the arms insanity and lobby against it.

        In the interim, as a matter of self-preservation, we must draw distinctions between ourselves and the foaming-at-the-mouth arms radicals that will, ultimately and unfortunately, put society into another folly like prohibition or, more likely, the strictures of England.

        My position, that I have shared with my powder-burner friends is that if WE, the responsible arms owners, don’t take positive control of the arms issue, then ignorant radicals will. As one episode of social mayhem follows another and the population is increasingly urban (and non arms owning), the specter arises that arms ownership will be proscribed and heavily limited by folks who have no arms experience or education. To this end, it occurred to me that gun prohibitionists may someday wake up to a salient fact, namely, one doesn’t have to control the pistols and rifles that are scattered about so massively that one will NEVER find ’em all. No…all one has to do is control the ammunition and wait! Eventually, with iron controls on ammo, all of our long and hand pieces will be either clubs or paper weights.

        You can argue that there will be black market ammo, and that’s a fact, but that market will not supply the ammunition demands of the population of responsible arms owners. And…the price will be prohibitive to the lawful and responsible shooter.

        So, proleptically, we need to begin a process of removal from the herd. I find relaxation and enjoyment in my basement range AND the ability, rarely, to remove a noxious rodent/pest from my yard and its greenstock. I don’t want to be rolled up in a social over-reaction caused by the few…

        • LFranke,

          Those have been my thoughts for a while, just when I thought it was getting more rational, it became more polarized. I fear the backlash is going to swing the pendulum towards more restrictive gun laws.

          Don

          • Yes, I think you are correct. If not just restrictions, but also onerous licensing requirements and certification requirements. A basic arms course probably makes some sense, however.

            I suspect that we are going to wake up to the fact that statistically certain medications, diagnoses, mental conditions, and other markers will be understood as contributory to high risk individuals who should be evaluated prior to ownership of arms or ammunition. It would take some formal study to make these determinations – knowing that nothing in this life is perfect nor permanent.

            I think, however, that a bifurcation between air arms and powder burners is warranted should a real social/legal squeeze come about. Air arms have virtually no criminal value. They are poor choices for suicide. They are commonly not seen as “real weapons” by most people. All of this does inure to our favor.

            However, I suspect that the motivating factors favoring misuse of arms are well known and can be readily validated. Interventions designed to interdict persons with such factors are what is needed in league with significant criminal sanctions related to arms misuse.

            Smarter folks than I need to take a dispassionate view of the factors in play and consider how we can support the fundamental human right to bear arms with social/societal responsiblity and order.

            • So, I tried to look for the exact actual words of the second amendment and what I found, was, opinions, interpretations, etc, etc… 🙁

              Seems like people want, whatever it was, changed, but without calling it a change! Exactly like what happened to “All animals are equal”… 🙂

              • Update – I found it – this time I tried the words from my previous comment ‘exact actual words of the second amendment’ 🙂

                It says:
                “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
                Wow, I expected it to be much more than just one sentence! It seems so clear and simple to me. Again, wow! 🙂

                • Sadly, it is not so clear, mostly due to punctuation. There are two different interpretations that can be drawn – at least if one sets aside the fact that they might disagree with one of them. The first is simply that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed for any reason, in part because this supports the need to provide for a militia (setting aside the “well regulated” bit for simplicity). The second is that this right exists in the context of the need for a militia; thus constraints on the right can be made (but not any outright ban to all citizens) – at the extreme end, if one is not in a militia they don’t need arms.

                  I don’t know what they meant (I know what I hope they meant). The whole constitution is full of ambiguous language issues like this. That is why it is left to “constitutional scholars” to interpret . . . and why things seem to change in cycles.

                  • Yes AlanMcD, I can see lots of ways to change it, for example:
                    I dispute that the Unites States of America is “..a free State..”, therefore the Second Amendment is… [insert whatever] !

                    However, I am and remain amazed how clear and simple the actual sentence itself is, especially, as I have no opinion about it. 🙂

                    • Hi3
                      For your information I would like to update my experience with the HW 90. I bought two tins of H&N ftt, in 5.53 and 5.54 to test.
                      It seems that the 5.54 are winers.

                    • Thank you Bill for remembering that I’m waiting for news. 🙂

                      A mere difference of 0.01″ (0.254mm) between those two round heads seems to make a difference. Please, what are the details of this story?

                    • hihihi,

                      You need to read this: https://www.americanrevolutioninstitute.org/why-the-american-revolution-matters/
                      We as a Nation (USA) certainly have failings which you seem to see.
                      But do you see what may still be brought out of this Modern Republic?
                      And do you see what it means to this World of ours if it fails?
                      Instead of so much USA bashing for all of our Republics fault’s the World needs to better appreciate what has been done and what is yet to be accomplished.
                      I worry that we here in the USA do not have the people with the moral strength in our elected offices any longer but then what other nation state is doing better just now?

                      Pray that Liberty and Justice for ALL does not fail.

                      shootski

                    • Hi3
                      I don’t think that there’s a story here.
                      Just trying different pellets (hard task). These 5.54 FTTs are capable of one big .22 hole in 10 meters. Now you have to wait until Easter break (orthodox for me) to test at longer ranges.

                    • Thanks Bill. I think that “…one big .22 hole…” is a good summary of what I thought of as a story. 🙂

                      I had to look up that Orthodox Easter is on April 16th this year.
                      May your red egg crack all others (= good luck game)! 🙂

                  • AlanMcD,

                    Understanding the Bill of Rights needs to be looked at in the context of the times. The American Confederation was failing in the Federalists view. The States Rights folks were about to implode the governing construct because they chaffed under/at the CONTROL from a centralized governing body. The Constitution is the attempt by the Federalists and others to save the Confederation of the Original Colonies. The Constitution remained unratified by the member states until the Bill of Rights was added.
                    Important fact: the Constitution specifically ONLY gives the Federal Government the task of raising a NAVY. Most all of the creators of the Constitution were adamantly opposed to Standing Armies!
                    The militias were therefore the State Militias (National Guard) and NOT the US Army.
                    So what! Well that means NO regulation from the Federal Government.

                    My considered and informed opinion of course reached through extensive study of the writings of the Founders.

                    shootski

                • hihihi,

                  I’m glad you were able to find the 2nd Amendment as written.
                  Interesting, isn’t it, how difficult it can at times be made to find certain Facts on search engines.
                  The word Free and the US of A are frequently misinterpreted. The people were FREE to come together to create a construct to govern themselves called a Constitution. Once they created that Constitution some of them immediately started started work on the Bill of Rights. Obviously, those folks realized that the Constitution could be improved to keep the degree of LIBERTY as broad as possible.
                  There are some people who talk of writing a new governing construct at a Constitutional Convention and they topically come from the Right and the Left extremes of the political spectrum. With the functioning amending process of the current construct this is a Red Herring; it should NEVER be seriously entertained. Those who want to have it their way and NOT the way of the People should be barred or turned from office or better still ridden out of town on a rail.

                  Freedom is a political term in an organized society True Freedom is a return to the Natural State. LIBERTY is all one can hope for in any organized society the degree of which can only be Guaranteed by an effective counter to government power such as the 2nd Amendment.

                  shootski

                  • Ah shootski, freedom versus liberty, how interesting. 🙂

                    Happily I had yet to give those two words any thoughts, ie like a child, I immediately knew, or felt, what they meant to me. 🙂

                    I think of the first as a solitary existence without interference from any other human, while the second is, to me, the length of leash.
                    What fun it is, to realise, among us, different perceptions of the same words, eh? 🙂

                    • hihihi,

                      I understand all too well your current mind picture given the poor stewardship by our various selected Republics leaders….

                      “…the length of leash.”
                      If i could get you a different mind picture:
                      Think of LIBERTY in a good and properly functioning Republic as having bought your own leash, holding your own leash, as agreed to with your fellow Citizens and taking yourself for a proper walk through life.

                      shootski

                • If one understands the Sitz im Leben, or “situation in life,” as the German technical term puts it, then what we have is, in the II Amendment, a provision, in post-Revolutionary times, for the former colonies, now called, “states,” to have their own armies as a counter to the feared growing power of the Continental Congress. The Founder Generation, having fought off George III and Parliament and their Hessians and Regulars, feared centralized power.

                  The IIA has little to NOTHING to do with the right to arms, as I see it, contrary to the increasingly Reich Wing SCOTUS. The Heller decision was just another unnecessary and erroneous hack on the Constitution to shore up an heresy of the NRA and gun lobby.

                  Let’s get back to historic basics. The right to arms was likely considered among other fundamental rights to be inalienable and fundamental as a HUMAN RIGHT that preceded the Constitution and is core to human existence. The right of the citizen to defend his persons and property goes back in human history to BEFORE the founding of the first city-states. Such a right is so central to human existence that it needs NO amendment. The fear of the Founders that another despotic regime might arise underscored these central human rights with the Bill, of course.

                  What is forgotten in all this is that, with regard to the IIA, the CITIZENS WERE ALREADY ARMED AND THAT WAS PRESUMED BY THE FOUNDERS. Armed citizens, already in possession of their arms, were to be uninhibited in assembling, UNDER THE POWER OF THEIR NEW STATES, in well-regulated militias, to defend themselves and their fellow citizens. What the IIA underscores is NOT a RIGHT OF CITIZENS but the P=O=W=E=R of each state to raise, maintain, order and direct their own state armies, a.k.a., militias.

                  The canard of the NRA and gun lobby propagandists is to subtly suggest that the IIA somehow GRANTED the citizens the ability to have arms. B/S! The citizens ALREADY had, used and kept their arms. Indeed the Revolution was made possible BEFORE Geo. Washington and von Steuben could organize the Continental Army BECAUSE the citizens were armed and could respond to the call to defend the people. Lexington and Concord and ALL the battles of the Revolution occurred BEFORE the IIA.

                  Having said all of this, I see a REAL threat to my right, my basic human right, to have my air arms (well, and two ammo-less powder burners; one is my father’s WW2 war trophy and the other a black powder DYI) in the persistent made-up B/S about the IIA. The reason for my trepidation is the Volsted Act. Remember that one? Maybe those “geniuses” who preach the IIA need to look it up!

                  Prohibition against the non-medical consumption of beverage alcohol was initiated by an AMENDMENT to the Constitution. The right of the citizens to distilled spirits, in particular, and other forms of ethanol was removed. “Thanks, Carrie, you screwed up a Nation!”

                  After a couple of decades, it became painfully obvious that abstinence wasn’t working at all. Even FDR was having cocktails in the WH and he was the Pres!
                  So…another Amendment was passed and the whole “temperance” experiment went away. In short, AMENDMENTS have a certain VOLITILITY to them. Thus, the question is: “Do I want my inherent and fundamental human right to be subject to the volitility of an AMENDMENT?” My answer is NO!

                  If the NRA and the gun propagandists keep up this stupidity of the IIA as the BASIS of arms-ownership, as I see it, they are foisting upon responsible citizens who happen to own and use arms appropriately a real specter of having another “Volsted Act” shoved down their throats (probably with equal results as with prohibition?). As the population becomes and is incresingly urban and nonrural, as gun crimes scandalize the nation, as one mass mayhem after another outrages the public, there can be the same kind of rush toward an arms prohibition as there was once that for alcohol. One can’t put up with massacres in schools forever, the optics of dead elementary school children are powerful and BAD.

                  Now, you can say, “cold dead hands,” and crap like that. The pistols and long guns are so proliferated that the government will never be able to find them all. But…think about it….a prohibitive government doesn’t have to secure all the guns! All the government has to do is RADICALLY CONTROL AMMUNITION.

                  In very recent times, .22 ammunition has been in extremely short supply for one reason or another. That has happened with other calibers for various reasons including military consumption. Now, imagine if the powers of government stepped in to this WEAK LINK in the chain and took control! All the yelling and screaming about the right to bear arms would mean NOTHING. We would still have our arms, just NOTHING to project!

                  Given the passage of enough time, all my pistols and long arms would become either paperweights or clubs! I am currently waiting for H&N Smart Shot. H&N will being production or receive it from a subcontractor in 3-4 weeks, in 3-4 months the Smart Shot BBs should arrive in the USA, according to H&N. My new Oktoberfest sits in my locked gun cabinet until then. See how easy it is? Imagine if the AMMUNITION had imposed upon it the same security as nuclear materials? And the “pinch points” are few.

                  Black market sources would, of course, arise. Illegal importation would occur. However, those kinds of sources will NEVER supply the whole shooting population; DYI and smuggling are not going to keep up with demand! And…no surprises here….what are you THEN going to pay for each round?

                  So, we need to get back to a couple of things, as I see it. First, to stop the orthodox “heresy” about IIA; it’s the wrong argument about the fundamental right to arms. It’s volitility threatens lawful and responsible arms ownership and focus on the right to arms as a central human right.

                  Secondly, we need to support whatever efforts our elected representatives and civil authorities can develop and implement to curb the arms violence. We all know people who shouldn’t be trusted with a spoon, AND recent data suggests, in an analysis of all the mass shootings for the past several decades that the commont threat is that these events are murder-suicides, hence, mental health AND criminality events. Perhaps we need computerized national screening that flags citizens who have certain: mental health treatment issues, certain meds known to cause cognitive changes, domestic violence complaints/arrests, etc.

                  Maybe, as well, changes in how we, as shooters, verbalize about our arms? And how the mass media portrays them? Remember Dirty Harry’s famous soliloquy about “This is a .44 magnum…”? For responsible and lawful shooters, this is old news and we’d ask Clint, rather, “Hey, fella, can you hit anything with it? How about your sight radius?” But…what did that bit of film say to the troubled individual who wants to take others with him? When I taught my son, now a Lt. Col. in the US Army, to shoot, my first instructions were that arms are engines of DEATH and one can NOT put life back into something you fatally shoot. We shot together for years before life and maturation moved him on and he NEVER resorted to his arms inappropriately.

                  I have ranted on long enough. I think we, as shooters, need to get our own houses in order and take control of the issue of the responsible and lawful use and ownership of arms and remove, from them, the mystique and bullshit that Hollywierd and NRA-paid lawyers foist upon them. In other words, what discussions should we have about the kinds of educational programs, screening measures and whatever we might invent that would restore sanity here????

                  BTW, in closing, here. I DON’T have the answers, I barely know the questions. I worked as a pastor, chemical dependency counselor and social worker by profession – the latter two among our state’s veterans. I do know that some folks just should not EVER, perhaps, have arms. How the STATE would make that determination is the issue, AND how can we, as a shooting community, support such lawful prohibitions mindful that no right is without its lawful limitation save, perhaps (?) for the Fifth Amendment? I also know that no system will ever perfectly stop bad behavior; the point, as one of my late county sheriffs once said is that one can’t stop it all but one can inhibit and minimize it. How can we assist in inhibiting the criminal and improper use of arms? That’s the issue; not our inherent rights…

                  • Whew! Agreed, LFranke, on nearly every point.

                    But at my advanced age, a simpler view might suffice. In an age where many “gentleman” still wore swords, and personal hazards such as highwaymen, brigands, etc. were still to be encountered, along with everyday bad guys that existed then and exist today, …PERSONAL security, never mind the security of any state, was a recognized valid concern.

                    I don’t believe that it was only in historical movies that guns were hung over doors and mantles, ready for use when/if needed.

                    I also don’t imagine that our founders would have envisioned a country where its citizens would be individually defenseless while the “state” would enjoy protection.

                    If the first condition of the 2nd amendment was stricken, …and the CITIZEN’S right to the most effective means of self/family defense were not infringed, those armed individuals would still be free to assemble into any “militia”or State/National Guard as needed. Misusers of the guaranteed arms would still be dealt with lawfully as appropriate, and no law-abiding citizen need fear government interference with
                    what should be an unquestioned right to self defense or protection.

                    The “regulation” would be the misuse laws, and the “militia” would exist in the ready-to-respond
                    persons of the armed citizenry.

                    On another topic, …I will never be convinced that if my airgun possession is guaranteed, then my firearm-level protection will be equalled.
                    Let’s keep it real while we express enthusiasm for our particular sport, …and not lose sight of the need for and valid purposes of firearms.

                    CBS

                  • LFranke,

                    I’m in some agreement with you in certain aspects but you really need to look into your conception of the Continental Army and Navy circumstance.
                    https://www.americanrevolutioninstitute.org/exhibition/a-revolution-in-arms/#:~:text=To%20help%20supply%20American%20troops,manufacture%20weapons%20for%20the%20army.
                    The above link is a great place to start. I think you would really enjoy visiting their Anderson House and the Library.
                    At the Washington Navy Yard there are historical resources available on the early Continental Navy.
                    There was no possible way the existing arms in the hands of the Patriot Forces were sufficient to sustain warfare for the eight years of the fight for Independence.

                    shootski

                    • Of course, the civilian weapons would not sustain the Revolution. I agree with that. The tacit admission of that FACT is that Congress raised an actual army with the quartermaster and supply issues (that Washington constantly had to confront) that attend an actual formal armed force.

                      The militias were called up first because the Continental Army did not even exist. Armies don’t work with a mix of calibers for small arms. Uniformity comes from the uniformed services – that pesky word, “uniform,” has real meaning and effect.

                      My comments are that the Revolution STARTED with the sense of use what you brought, but the Continental Congress finally had to get beyond a rag-a-muffin militia to a real army. That army was successful, fortunately for the nation (with a lot of help by the French, we must admit).

                      Ironically, the success of Revolutionary Days would kill a LOT of CSA and Union troops when the generals didn’t really understand the difference between rifled long guns and smooth bore muskets (at least to start).

  27. I’m late to this thread, but I say they should specify (or at least measure and reveal) the exact bore of the rifling. This could be gaged at the factory using Class X plug gages.

    • JerryC,

      Your’s is certainly a good start!
      I’ll raise you though.
      Manufacturers should Air Gage the Chamber, Lands and Grooves of EVERY airgun they manufacturer!
      “Air gaging is a non-contact means of precise comparative dimensional measurement which offers users the advantages of improved workflow, increased productivity, and decreased downtime. It is ideal for measuring dimensions with tolerances smaller than .005″, and when gaging extremely tight tolerances, a resolution as small as .000001″ can be achieved. Its noncontact characteristic makes air gaging particularly useful for checking soft, highly polished, thin-walled or other delicate materials.

      The main benefit of air gaging is its ease of use, which produces accurate results while eliminating operator error. Operation is as simple as presenting a tool to a workpiece and observing a reading. The gaging operation is fast, as well. A row of comparators can be scanned in one glance, reducing time and fatigue. And characteristics such as squareness that cannot be checked by fixed limit gaging are easily measured with air gaging.

      Air gaging is economical, too. Once the basic system is purchased, relatively inexpensive additional tooling can be used for a wide variety of applications. Air gages effectively measure all common types of dimensions and are particularly suited to measuring dimensional relationships and match gaging.

      Most air gaging systems operate at air pressures which can clear workpieces of contaminants such as coolants or cutting oils at the measurement point, eliminating the need for a separate cleaning in most operations. And, since air gage tooling has no moving parts, it is virtually immune to fouling. Air gaging also offers a wide choice of tooling for measurement applications such as roundness, taper, camber (bow), barrel, straightness, clearances, lobing, and more.”

      What do you think?

      shootski

  28. Take the HW30S and try to make it better….Good luck with that. Same for the Avenger, the R9, and the Crossman 2240. These are best sellers and highly regarded for a reason! They work! And they work fantastically well. Take these platforms and try your best to make them better and cheaper.

  29. Readership,

    Tom I think you will be interested in this as will readers with any degree of interest in the American Revolution or the legacy it has brought the modern World.
    https://www.americanrevolutioninstitute.org/why-the-american-revolution-matters/
    This is the Organization: The Society of the Cincinnati
    Founded by the Officers of the Continental Army and Navy to keep the memory and focus of the Nation on the True reasons for the War of Independence and the fact that the goals of the Revolution are far from being completed!
    The above is a fairly quick read but if you are a Citizen of the US of A you need to know at least a little of the Truth to be found in the work of the Society of the Cincinnati.

    shootski

  30. My input.

    1. Triggers – What BB and many others have said.

    2. Spring-Piston Airguns – Not particularly interested but SIG ASP-like and under 6.5 lbs in weight.

    3. PCPs – “These need to have the nicest triggers and superb accuracy (at least 1 MOA). A low fill pressure, 2000 – 3000 PSI is best.” Multi-shot is a must, semi or selective fire are definitely nice. Well functioning and long lasting regulator or a good balanced valve. Smooth, easy cocking. Inexpensive magazines. At least 50 shots before needing more air. Decent Foster fittings—no probes or proprietary connections. A gauge that is not anywhere the supporting hand could be. A cheekrest that is high enough. Ergonomics are very important. Ideally 6 lbs in weight.

    4. Big Bore – Multishot. 3000 psi or so fill. Other points covered in PCP.

    5. Replicas – Not particularly Interested.

    6. Quality – Should go without saying. Needs to be at least reasonable to last a few decades.

  31. Another good topic with plenty discussion 🙂

    What I’m missing guys is a big bore airgun with 350ft.lbs+ energy. Just for fun and 100yards shooting on my ranch, even if once in the year.
    This is really something which is making me crazy each time I realize it – in Germany and similar in my homeworld Poland you have to get permission for this, it is not so easy and the worst thing: you are not able to shoot something like that just like that in your backyard (legally I mean). In the theory you are able to shoot it only in a certified shooting range. So there is no place for real fun.
    You have to realize that I’m already braking rules using my Stormrider with 26ft.lbs energy. It has a good silencer so there is no risk someone will panic and call cops or something but theoretically I’m against the law using it. To have it not registered is already uuuujjjuuuuuujjjjjuuuujjj.
    For transportation I turn the barrel a bit in one direction so the gap between the transfer port and input hole in the barrel is getting smaller, then I chrony it and leave on 5ft.lbs level… 🙂 but to be honest, it does not make any fun like this.

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