This report covers:
- BB pays attention
- Prophecy
- And today?
- Why?
- Flying
- Flight history
- Affordable full-featured PCPs
- Accurate long-range pellets
- Accurate pellets
- Today’s point
- Summary
Today we learn about the power we consumers have over the airgun manufacturers. Let’s go.
BB pays attention
I watch what you readers post and was interested in the fascination some of you have with the upcoming Crosman 3662 launch. It’s a precharged rifle they hope to retail for $130. Hmmmm –Where have we seen this before? Why, in 2014 we saw it in the report titled, Building the $100 precharged pneumatic air rifle.
The $100 PCP was built as a proof-of-concept rifle by Dennis Quackenbush.
I gave blog readers the technical specifications of the single airgun Dennis Quackenbush built in 2013. He used a Crosman 2100B multi-pump as a starting point and built from there. At the time the rifle he started with retailed for $59.95 and the bits and pieces that took it into the PCP world boosted the cost to around $75. The same 2100B retails today for $82.99, so the $100 PCP has increased to the $125-130 PCP. Hmmmm.
Prophecy
Read what I wrote on December 31, 2013:
“Airgun manufacturers: If you read this blog, today’s report is one you’ll want to pay attention to! When I announced last Friday that I would be writing this, I received more interest than any subject that’s ever been raised on this blog. That makes this a subject of primary importance to anyone who wants to know what the consumer wants.”
“Blog readers: Many of you have not read or perhaps not understood all that I’ve said about this project. I am therefore going to explain it now in clear terms, so that everybody will know what I’m talking about. This project is a proof of concept. It is not a new airgun that’s about to be built. I don’t know if it will ever be made, and if it is, it probably won’t look like what you’re about to see. This is a single airgun that incorporates the features I’ve envisioned in a PCP that could retail for less than $100. A lot less, if you follow carefully.”
And today?
Update that prediction to a decade later by increasing the price another $25-30 and look what you get. But things have not been quiet in the ten years between then and now. Listen to what Crosman told me at the SHOT Show in 2016, “Tom, we built the $100 PCP. After reading your blog and seeing the interest in such an airgun we decided to build it. Ours retails for just under $200, but the Benjamin Maximus will be a bright new chapter for this company.”
The Maximus looks similar to the Benjamin Discovery and will retail for under $200. A complete package with a pump and pellets will retail for about $350. (That is the caption to that photo from 2016)
Crosman was right when they said the Maximus would be a bright new chapter for them. It was all of that, and ushered in airguns like the Fortitude/Fortitude Gen 2. And now they are bringing out the 3662. Why?
Why?
The why is because these low-dollar airguns open the market to new buyers who will potentially want to upgrade to the more expensive airguns at some point in the future, once they find out how good they are. It’s called growing the market.
You don’t do it with cars because everyone needs a car. You do it with products that people don’t need. You create a demand by causing an itch that doesn’t cost too much to scratch.
Flying
Want to learn how to fly an airplane? Prepare to spend $80 or more per hour to fly a Cessna 150. The actual costs are slightly lower but the person who owns the plane wants something for their involvement. The costs might be higher than I stated, with the cost of avgas on the increase. Figure at least 50 hours to get your certificate. So getting a single engine airplane certificate to fly over land (the first and most basic of certificates) costs many thousands of dollars
Want to buy your own airplane? Figure $60,000 for a decent used plane and then open your wallet for things like hangar/tiedown fees, insurance, landing fees, maintenance etc.
But what if someone made an airplane that only cost $8,000 new and cost just a fraction of the what the expensive airplane costs to fly — including no hanger/tiedown costs? Such planes exist now. They are called ultralights.
What if brushless electric motors were capable of spinning propellers that could lift humans off the ground? They exist right now. But they exist in drones selling for $150K to half a million dollars. What if the cost could be cut to one tenth of that by combining ultralight technology and brushless electric motor technology?
Flight history
Up to 1903 the problem with manned powered flight was the motors that were powerful enough to create enough lift were too heavy to lift themselves. Twenty-four years later Charles Lindbergh crossed the Atlantic in an airplane.
It can be done. It’s a matter of applying technology correctly.
Affordable full-featured PCPs
In 2000 a repeating PCP cost well over $1,000 and didn’t have a user-adjustable regulator or a power adjuster. In 2023 the Air Venturi Avenge-X gives us features that were not even all available in the same airgun in the year 2000, regardless of the price — and they do it for less than $600.
Think a $130 PCP is remarkable? Think again. It will exist, as long as those who make it have the resolve to see the project through.
Accurate long-range pellets
If you’ve been in airguns for at least 20 years you remember the early solid pellets that were inaccurate and hard to load. Today we have slugs that shoot as well as or better than diabolo pellets at 100 yards. That didn’t happen by chance. Somebody engineered that.
Accurate pellets
When they were first introduced in the mid-1990s, Crosman Premiers of all calibers were some of the most accurate pellets in the world. They are mostly gone now but the new Benjamin domes that I call Bullseyes and Crosman calls Match Grade are even better than the Premiers. I’m calling your attention to the fact that Crosman is making pellets that are increasingly improved.
10.5-grain Crosman Premier pellets on the left and the new Benjamin Match Grade domes on the right. They look very similar, but aren’t the same.
Today’s point
There is a point to what I’m saying today. You readers often ask me whether the manufacturers read this blog, or if I can influence them to do certain things. I have shown you several examples of the manufacturers doing what you have said you want.
On the other hand, you have to be reasonable. There are 4,717 Wal-Mart stores in the USA. If each of them carries a certain model of airgun and typically stocks four guns, the potential initial sale is four times 4,717 or 18,868 guns sold. If that airgun sells well, the potential skyrockets. Compare that to the perhaps 5,000 HW 30S rifles that informed shooters buy worldwide and you will see that it’s a numbers game. And, if it turns out that the velocity printed on the box is what sells airguns in discount stores, guess what is most important to the manufacturers?
But the manufacturers do listen to your comments — at least the smart ones do. Things in the development world take years to bear fruit, but they do happen. In just two years from that blog series Crosman brought out their first attempt at a $100 PCP. Now it seems they will bring out the next one.
Summary
Speak up; makers listen. Be aware they draw conclusions about what you say, just as you draw conclusions about what they do.
In case Velocity is reading this, I will restate what I said over at HAM. Sell a package kit of 3662 and pump. Keep it at or under $200, we might get big box stores selling PCPs!
And for Pyramyd; how about Beeman/Weirauch guns with tune kits installed? Yes, it will cost more, but a lot of their fanboys assure us that they make them even better.
Tom,
The next option package will be a fully automatic high pressure pump under $200 along with the entry PCP that will be sold at Walmart. Buyers will be looking for convenience not exercise.
Siraniko
BB,
It really is awesome that some of “them” listen. We, the consumers need to be careful in what we ask for though. Often, our desires can be so extravagant that when we are given these desires, they cost more than we can afford. I myself have been guilty of this on occasion. As I have “matured”, I have reigned in some of my desires. I do miss the lower pressures though.
You are so right about growing the market. There are so many out there who refuse to step across the line and enter “The Dark Side” because of cost. With proper marketing and the right product, the start up price for doing such can be brought down to something that is reasonable. Crosman and Umarex have been offering some nice “packages” for some time now.
My grandson is now ready for a hand pump as he steps across to “The Dark Side”. He will get my Hill soon. Before long he will likely want my compressor. He will have to wait for Siraniko’s $200 compressor though. I might have to pick up one of those myself. 😉
Speaking of compressors, I saw one at the NC Airgun Show that dwarfed anything I have ever seen before. The price tag on it matched. It did have three pistons, but golly gee whiz, you would have to do an awful lot of shooting to justify owning one of those things. I do not think even BB does that much.
RR,
Three pistons? Sounds like an Air Force compressor from one of their old bombers. They used to show up at airgun shows and were prices $1800-2500.
BB
BB,
This one was not that cheap. It was about $3500. He had one on display. I would be surprised if he sold one.
BBs are cheap, way cheaper than pellets.They are also very easy to design high-capacity magazines for.
I know of one BB gun that holds 650 rounds, yet it retails for just over $30 at Walmart.
But you have to cock each time you want to fire a shot.
Want a semi-automatic BB gun? There are loads of them on the market, but they are powered by 12g CO2 cartridges which are good for only 40-60 shots, depending on the ambient temperature.
CO2 costs $0.50-$1.00 per cartridge. That gets expensive real quick if you shoot a lot and can soon cost more than the BB gun itself. CO2 also makes Baby Greta cry (but plants love it).
How about a power source that would allow you to fill your BB gun with 650 BBs and shoot it until empty, just by pulling the trigger each time and not having to cock it, or replace a CO2 powerlet every few dozen shots? How about a BB PCP?
Bob,
And I just got two made for full auto / rapid fire Crosman 300 round, dual CO2 cartridge magazines, that transfer 25 BB’s to spring load feed at a time that can power up to 200 shots per fill for my AR type BB guns.
They would be old school with a PCP BB rifle. But I like that Idea. Eliminate the CO2 and have even more BB storage.
Almost forgot about those probes that replace CO2 cartridges and hook up to a remote air storage tank. The M14 airgun had a conversion kit if I remember correctly.
Bob Ryan,
good news: airsoft ! 🙂
Electrically powered airguns, that can shoot in semi automatic or full automatic mode, until their magazines are empty, and then some. For example, here is a 600 rounds magazine:
https://www.pyramydair.com/product/cyma-hi-cap-600rd-ak-airsoft-aeg-metal-magazine?a=9102
There are also magazines with a capacity for thousands of plastic balls. I imagine, with the right airsoft gun, the back yard will swiftly seem snowy white. 🙂
Hi 3
Thank you for your early Christmas ideas.
Since it seems like Summer now in my country you made my day thinking of White Christmas, even (or better maybe) with thousands of white plastic snowballs on the yard. Even my 18 months old grandson will love it.
Bill,
oh dear, my least favourite time of year. Also, careful what you wish for; as you know, it wouldn’t be the first time for Athens to get snowed under, by the real stuff. 🙂
I envy your weather, especially while here in the South of France it’s currently very wet, windy and all day long it’s been dusk-like dark. Vickie, my girlfriend, saw some friends’ holiday pictures from Rhodes today: makes us wish to be elsewhere…
Enjoy! 🙂
Hi 3
I still wish we could have some late Autumn weather. And I don’t forget the 48 hours isolation without electric power and with “buried” cars in the snow last year, all that in a suburb of Athens! Thank God we have a fire place, wood and I can cook withhout electricity.
A little pricey but would do the job – https://www.pyramydair.com/product/barra-400e-bb-rifle?m=5582
Hi everyone…
so we achieved the easy part. Getting the $ 100 PCP.
Now for the hard part: How do we convince Diana to bring back the 27?
This would have two benefits:
1. It would be a nice airgun for short to medium distances.
2. Maybe the annoying German guy will shut up about his stupid HW30S.
Meanwhile I’m still shooting groups with my old 27. My mission is to shoot a group that can be covered by a Euro cent coin (1,625cm or 0,63″). I think the gun can do it. The question is – can I (with open sights, that is)?
Stephan
CptKlotz,
I would have thought that the second hand market would suffice to satisfy demand, besides, Diana 27s were made by a different company to today’s Diana.
Finally, I think the Weihrauch HW30S is well worth shouting about ! 🙂
hihihi,
I think you’re not wrong. I think GSG took over the Diana equipment from Rastatt when they bought the company. I think that’s still preferable to the brand vanishing altogether.
I suppose the question is whether they are willing to introduce another line of “Performance Line” spring rifles that wouldn’t have magnum power or “high tech” features.
Or maybe I’m looking at this wrong and the LP8 Tactical with a shoulder stock is the new 27… not quite the same thing, is it? 🙂
Stephan
CptKlotz and anyone else who may be interested,
I believe that L&O (Michael Lüke and Thomas Ortmeier) own GSG (German Sport Guns) and together they acquired, among other well known brands like Sig Sauer, Blaser, Mauser, Swiss Arms, the financially almost dead, Diana company, which, of course, included the old tools and the legal right to use the old names, etc… Therefore, I see them as a new company of people, only one of whom, Maurice Reinagel, if he is still there, was kept on from the previous team.
Also, there are only about a dozen workers allocated to the Diana part of the company, who, rather than manufacture-, assemble Diana airguns. I think, three are busy in Development and Engineering.
All Diana parts manufacture seems to be carried out by other companies, the locations of which result in either the name “Performance Line” (Germany) or “Action Line” (other countries). Wooden stocks, for example, come from Italy.
In-house quality control examines incoming parts to identify what needs extra work, ie refinishing.
All of the above, I learned a while back from a works visit video by Andreas Hofmann (airghandi.de), who was guided by the Chief Executive Officer Michael Swoboda (one of 3 ex-Umarex workers, who, together, founded German Sport Guns (GSG) in 2002, and now make up the GSG management team).
_________
Back in 2009 Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier) reviewed and seemed to like the LP8 Magnum ! pistol ( https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/09/rws-model-lp8-magnum-part-3/ ) but no, I do not think it is the same as a Diana 27. 🙂
hihihi,
I have seen the AirGhandi video. There is probably not *that* much continuity between old and new Diana. But judging from the 35 Commemorative I tested, the quality is still there, at least for the “Performance Line”.
Of course an LP8 Magnum is not the same as a 27. But the version with a shoulderstock might fill a similar niche. We need to think outside the box – why not use an oversized pistol as an undersized rifle?
Stephan
Stephan
Agree one hundred percent. Especially if the power limit is the German 7.5 joules. I kind of love this power limit once I tried my HW 35E with the nickel plated action. Such a smooth and beautiful air rifle.
The LP8 carbine is always on my list.
Bill,
The HW35 shoots surprisingly well at 7.5 joules. Maybe it has to do with the relatively short piston stroke.
I recently replaced the mainspring on my old 7.5 joule HW35E. It was pretty canted, but you wouldn’t have known that from the firing behaviour, which was still very smooth.
It’s only when you compare it to the HW30, that you notice how “slow” the HW35 feels at that power level.
But they’re both very good rifles and if in doubt, it’s probably best to have both 🙂
Stephan
CptKlotz,
erm, sorry but no. 🙁
Maybe I like the Diana 27 as it is too much to want to see someone else come up with their new and improved interpretation?
Also, I learned that a shoulder stock on a pistol does not necessarily make it useful as a carbine. Though I really like the idea, the challenges include usable sights (iron sights in my pictured example can no longer be used) and cheek rest. 🙂
FM shouts along with hihihi – the HW30S reminds FM of the classic VW Beetle – it accomplished its intended purpose without a lot of power and was cheap to run/maintain. When machines are not built unnecessarily complicated, both operator and machine do better. Of course, to each their own and their own choice. Choice good!
Managed to get out of the box again.
Instead of a single stroke of the barrel on a magnum to compress a spring or gas piston, how about a highly leveraged rachet mechanism. Something along the lines of a car bumper jack. The old type that engages old metal bumpers and uses the tire iron as a handle. Lifts a truck with one hand. Might work with an underlever too?
Just a thought. Three or so strokes to fully compress it.
The old Daisy 1894 broke up the spring compression into two separate under lever actions, forward and then back again. Kind of like a ratchet. It was held halfway compressed for the return stroke to engage and complete the compression. A one hand operation.
Said it before, what’s left to improve that’s not already in the works or done. A self-loading break barrel with a mag was genius. Using blowback or diverted air / CO2 to operate semi / full-auto and a second regulated air reservoir to sustain semi / full auto PCP’s.
Things just need to be fine-tuned until someone invents a totally new airgun design…. Ah yes! A shock proof magnum scope mount that does not give up accuracy. What ever happened with the Diana bullseye scope mount. I believe it was improved and then?
I am content in knowing I have some of the best performing airguns in every type. OK, except professional ten meter target shooting and Big Bore hunting but I have no interest there. Is an arrow shooter considered an airgun or a launching device? I’ll go with the second.
Oh and I like the BB PCP Idea. Using pellets for sustained full auto seems wasteful in more ways than one.
Bob,
A ratchet mechanism for multi-stage compression of magnum mainsprings is a great idea.
Imagine if the Gamo Hunter Extreme could be cocked with three strokes of 20lb each, instead of one of 60lb.
It could even make magnum springers competitive again against price-point PCPs.
Step One is hit the lottery.
Step two is to buy a Whiscombe
JW80 …… Then experience sheer air gun Bliss.
Then complain about the weight.
At least it was lottery money so you won’t miss the 5K or so.
Sadly I had to sell mine….. With all four caliber barrels
Frank Balisteri,
beyond a trial or two, surely you didn’t use all 4 barrels? Although my Diana 75 gave me an idea (briefly, due to crumbling seals), would you nevertheless elaborate on “… air gun Bliss.” please.
Rather than cold facts, I’m mostly interested in your personal memories of your Whiscombe JW80. 🙂
My friend I would love to give you an elaborate answer. At this point though……. I’m having a bad time
Flowing words.
Chemotherapy has me a little low in the water right now.
I’m happy to revisit when I feel better. The jw80 is far and away the finest barrel changer I’ve ever seen executed. Think Rolls-Royce corniche level!
It really was that good. Again I’ll try more later
Frank Balisteri,
oh ok then, I’ll let you off this time.
In fact, I appreciate that you responded to me, despite the sickening “Chemotherapy”. Did you know that when you’re in a bendy tunnel, it’s hard to tell when the light is just around the corner? 🙂
By the way, in a somewhat different manner than intended, the analogy works, because I have not owned either. Yet. 🙂
You deserve to experience
Something as fine in your lifetime!
Here is a name for your Rolodex, where all the best of them seem to have ended up.
His name is Fred Vollmer and I pray he and his wife Dotty are in good health.
They live in Marco Island Florida.
Bob and Bob
If that rachet idea works, now that is something They (and BB) should listen to.
Instead of congratulations for what has been done we should try to think really ahead of our times.
I think that most of us like finding bargains. I once bought a guitar with a broken neck at a big discount. A little glue was all that was needed to make it playable. Looking online these days at items that appear to be bargains, one often finds them to be out of stock. I suggest that Crosman should try to find a way to keep the upcoming 3662 in stock. They will most likely sell a lot of them.
I pray that these cheap airguns are not a “hunk of junk”!
May they at least have decent triggers.
-Yogi
I’d like to see Crosman bring back a .20 cal pellet to feed all the Sheridans they’ve abandoned. I know its not going to be a big seller, but its product support.
Derrick-
Amen to that! One, or dare I dream, two .20 cal pellets from new dies….
Hope springs eternal.
Derrick, Paco; Tragically, “we have no plans for a .20”.
Tom Gaylord (B.B. Pelletier),
I like the title, “We’ve done it again”.
However, “… makers listen…”? To me? Really?! 🙂
In the bigger picture of the airgun industry, I am not even a pixel. Therefore, I think today’s title should read:
I’ve done it again
I say, congratulations! 🙂
FM still fails to understand why manufacturers discontinue a proven product even after years of successful sales in a seemingly endless cycle of lather-rinse-repeat. The Maximus is a case in point. Disclaimer: have become rather fond of these handsome little PCPs ever since Gunfun enticed yours truly into the Dark Side with a .177 Max. Would it not have been better for Crosman to keep making it and maybe adding incremental improvements over time? Maybe multi-shot or even semi-auto versions? Possibly they could have offered tuned versions, better barrels, triggers; ok, it would have crawled away from the magic “$100-$200 price range” over time but improved versions would likely have been winners, generating more profit for Crosman and enticing even more beginners into higher priced and performing PCPs.
Kinda reminds FM of the story of GM’s Saturn – an example of ultimately snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. But, what does an FM know anyway? Not enough to run an airgun or a car company, for sure.
I can’t imagine any of my coworkers (non airgunners) remotely interested in a $200 bb gun–and that’s what they’d call it—that requires you to exercise in order to shoot. So, maybe that $200 PCP needs a built-in compressor to recharge that air reservoir after 30 or 50 shots.
When BB says we’ve done it again.
I don’t think we realize exactly how much power and influence we have.
He might be talking about us, the readers of this blog do you realize how much power and input that this blog of Pyramyd AIR, and BB, actually have at this point on the Airgun community?
This blog is read by tens of thousands of readers every day all around the world.
But there’s a core group of about 50 or 60 of us or so that comment at least once or twice a month , part of that core group narrows down to about 30 that comment at least once a week and to narrow it down even more there’s a group that comments daily, whether the topic of the day is within their interest or not, they still comment about it because it is all part of the Airgun hobby.
Think about that for a minute we’re just a bunch of old guys and girls, that play with BB guns and yet the companies pay attention to is said within this forum and its comments.
Because of the broad base of experiences that we all have that’s a lot of power.
Is it possible that the manufacturers to listen to a core group of people of less than 100 that has a broad range of experiences and knowledge, from mathematicians to writers, teachers, engineers, retired and active duty military and EVERYONE OF YOU bring something to the table that no one else does.
I stop and think about that for a second do you think the drone community pays attention to so few people about what’s the next drone they should produce ?
How about RC cars? Do they listen to a limited number of people about what the next model car they should build, I don’t think so.
I could be wrong, but sit back for a moment and just take in exactly how much influence that this blog has on the Airgun world.
Thank you Pyramyd AIR, Tom and everyone that comments and reads this blog and gives their opinion good or bad about what the topic of the day was.
Ian
Very aptly put!!
Well plus you made me feel special.lol
Companies do tend to respond to those who actually take the time to respond to them. Probably the majority of what a business receives are the negative responses since the motivation of displeasure is likely stronger than a person who got what was promised and feels fulfilled. So…
When people respond positively to them with positive suggestions or helpful, rather than disparaging, critique, I suspect that this does gain a fair bit of traction in decisions-making. This would increase by orders of magnitude with the added boost of having Gaylord in the mix.
The people writing and commenting here, the corporate wonks must know, are the PEOPLE WHO SPEND MONEY AND WIELD INFLUENCE ON THE SHOOTING COMMUNITY – here the air gun community. Remember, always, that the highest “office” in the business world is, ultimately, the consumer, the people who make the important decision to BUY a product. That is the most important decision in a business and it is not made by the business but the customer.
That ultimate decision-making power is what is studied by focus groups and industry analysts.
We are part of that focus of manufacturers. Let us be responsible in using that power and position….
Every time someone gripes about an air rifle that has a few bad reviews, I have to remind them.
Yes you read 4 bad reviews, and 34 good reviews, but how many THOUSANDS of them have been sold that never gave their owners a bit of problems, and who never leaves reviews.
Some people are always looking for something to fuss about..
Ian
Tom/BB,
This was one of the most enjoyable posts I’ve read recently. I think you’re spot on and your analogies were solid!
The $100 PCP already exists and is already profitable at wholesale thanks to economies of scale and the mass production juggernauts in the east. They have great barrels, great triggers, but needs a little help in the looks department.
To get an SRP of $100, the main issue is convincing makers to apply a little innovation to simplify the design further while improving performance and shaving a few $ in production costs. Also at some point, the average consumer will weigh the question of whether the $100 PCP is “cheap” for a reason and instead opt for the $200 Avenger that is tried and true.
There is a lot of potential in the $200 price point, and better to focus innovation, design, and useful features there. I’d rather pay $200 for rifle that makes me smile with every shot than $100 for one that makes me doubt myself and the gun.