by Tom Gaylord
Writing as B.B. Pelletier
Diana model 5V pellet pistol.
This report covers:
- Guest blog
- Mine is .177
- Rifled
- Condition
- Trademark
- Grip/Stock
- General description
- Sights
- Trigger
- Summary
Today we start looking at a Diana 5V pellet pistol that was made before World War II. While it uses the number five in the model name, it is completely different from the Diana model 5 air pistol that was made after the war. I wrote about that one in a three-part report published in March of this year.
Guest blog
We had a guest blog by Fred, formerly of the People’s Republic of New Jersey back in 2010. That one was titled Finding a Diana 5V air pistol, and it was a one-part all-inclusive report. Fred’s pistol was a .22, and as he noted, the Blue Book of Airguns only mentions the gun in .177. That’s a reminder to you collectors that the Blue Book is not the final authority. It’s good, but it doesn’t address everything.
Mine is .177
The pistol I bought at the Findlay show earlier this year is a .177. So, between Fred’s report and mine we get to see both calibers perform.
Rifled
Like Fred’s pistol mine is rifled. I tell you that because they can also be smoothbore. The Blue Books says they were made from 1931 to 1940, which seems reasonable, since production in Germany was put on a wartime footing around that time.
Condition
My gun is in good condition and is only missing a locking screw that holds the pivot bolt in place and a small screw in the end cap. It’s 13.25 inches long and nearly 7 inches of that is the barrel, which is round and has 2 diameters. The pistol sits very high in the hand, as many pistols from this time did.
Trademark
The gun is made of steel parts in a one-piece walnut grip/stock. The metal parts are polished and blued. According to the Blue Book this pistol may be the only model Diana that has the trademark of the letter D inside a circle with an arrow passing through. Fred showed that in his report and I will, too.
The Blue Book says the 5V pistol may be the only Diana to carry this trademark.
Grip/Stock
The grip/stock appears to be held to the action by 4 screws. There are 2 on either side. I may try to remove the grip to have a look inside the action, without taking it apart.
General description
The 5V is a breakbarrel that cocks and loads just like a rifle. There is no sight protector for your hand, so you have to choke up on the barrel to not drive the German korn-type front sight into the flesh of your hand.
The pistol weighs 2 lbs. 5 oz. which puts it in the same size/weight category as the BSF S20 pistol. I tested an S20 in 2016 but discovered that it was tired, so instead I’m linking you to an earlier test I did on the BSF S20 Match. That pistol averaged 436 f.p.s. with .177-caliber RWS Hobby pellets. I don’t expect this Diana 5V to be that fast for several reasons. First, it is a pre-war air pistol and few of them other than Webleys shot very fast. And second, this one looks a little tired. We will see, of course. I’m just not going to get my hopes up.
Sights
This pistol has German Kimme und Korn (notch and bead) open sights. I always though Korn, being the German word for corn, meant the front sight shape resembled a kernel of corn. It probably does, but the Germans have adopted the word Korn to mean sight, as well. So it’s not only descriptive, it’s generic.
The rear sight adjusts for elevation via a small thumbwheel through the rear leaf. If you want windage you must drift both sights to the side.
Rear sight adjusts for elevation only.
Trigger
The trigger is not adjustable. It’s one-stage and releases with over 10 lbs. of pull. I would guess that it’s over 14 lbs. It’s so heavy my trigger-pull gauges cannot measure it.
Summary
That’s the pistol we are about to examine. I will test velocity in the normal way and accuracy at 10 meters. With this trigger pull as heavy as it is, I may even consider popping it out of the stock for a look at the mechanism. Maybe I can spread some moly on it without having to diosassemble the action. So this report might just be a little different than most.
B.B.
Cool oldie! I hope you can get it to new or as new shooting condition.
Hope it’s a goodie…
-Y
B.B.,
What a classic! I imagine this is the original design from which many a copy has been made. It is beautiful in its simple and form follows function aesthetic.
Early in my involvement in airgunning I purchased two clunky Chinese copies of this design from Compasseco for, as best as I can recall, $7 a piece. They are rough-cocking, heavy-triggered, and very jumpy in their shooting behavior. I should use one as a learning project for trigger and powerplant tuning.
More recently I came into possession of a (probably 1960s) CZ ZVP pistol of this design in .177 with a rifled barrel. Plain wood, no checkering like your handsome Diana, but it does have a crisp and light, nonadjustable, one stage trigger, exceptional bluing (but poorly refinished wood), and is of heavy machined steel. It does cock smoothly but with a decent bit of effort. I haven’t chonied it, but it probably shoots in the mid to upper 300 fps. neighborhood. Noteworthy is that it has both breech and transfer port seals. Each is pretty close to flush, so I don’t know if that might be a source of inefficiency and one or both should be shimmed or replaced. They look like the original leather seals.
In my casual plinking with it, it seems to be pretty accurate at 10 meters, probably because the trigger is so nice. I have this Slavia and a 618 Minuteman and a CO2 APP 661. They are all excellent. CZs aren’t classic Dianas, but they are still pretty sweet. The Czechs really know how to make air guns!
I eagerly await more reports on this Diana 5V.
Michael
CZ ZVP is also quite an oldie (and not so common – I would say it should be quite rare in US). If you are concerned more with the dating there can be some help. First version was 1955-57 – without “Slavia” trademark (20 150 pieces were made according to the data I could find). Then there is a 3 year gap – as the original factory was “taken over” by CZ UB (Ceska Zbrojovka Uhersky Brod). From 1960-1969 they started the production with some hundreds (485 in 1960 and numbers were getting higher), getting to 15-20k pistols a year around 1965. According to the data, 140 437 pieces were manufactured. The serial numbers seem to be sequential as far as I know – so its serial could shed some light on age of the particular piece… In 1969 new version (TEX 086 with black plastic grip) replaced ZVP.
H3O4,
Mine has the Slavia logo and a five digit serial number beginning with 3.
Thanks very much for the information.
Michael
no problem. That number puts it somewhere in the early 1960s, mine gues would be 1962… but it is hard to tell exactly, I did not find lit of manufacture dates and serial numbers 🙁
So the air pistol and I are roughly the same age. I can tell you that it has held up much better than I have. ;^)
Michael
BB,
For some reason I have never warmed up to these old pistols. I guess it is because to me they look to be rather clunky, almost as if the designer just could not think of a good way to make a pistol grip for a chopped down rifle.
I also have to wonder if these originally had cocking aids similar to the Walther LP2, a rod that slid into the muzzle with a large ball on the end.
RidgeRunner,
I think if you got a nice BSF/Whisco, Diana, or CZ at a good price, you’d like it. B.B.’ report on the BSF is worth reading. The cocking effort is light on that one. Besides, I’ve often thought that anybody handy with PVC (LOL) could make a cocking aid in about fifteen minutes.
Just avoid the Chinese copies from about ten years ago. They are junk.
Michael
Michael,
I really would like to have a Diana 6M or Diana 10 in nice condition. I would probably even trade my Izzy for a Diana 10.
Hi my latest find in SA.
Classic Webley and Scott Vortex (I think also the owner thinks so – not certain).
With a RAM waterproof classic scope – all for $100.
Does anyone have any info on this rifle? Would really appreciate any feedback at all.
Happy plinking…
Ok just received photo it is a Vulcan. I believe these are not too easy to find? Any info will be appreciated.
This is the photo sorry not used to new function.
It is awesome to be able to share pics here.
Thank you Pyramid Air and Sir Tom – pity the USA does not bestow knighthoods – you should have one.
Oester,
B.B. already has the registered trademark “The Godfather of Airguns”. I think he is happy with that.
David H.
the grips have definitely been taken off at some point, no self respecting German would put that grip on without clocking the screws. I believe that the front sight could also be used as a gut hook for those feral cans.
Excellent idea! If you run out of pellets, you can use the front sight.
OH NO! I HAVE BECOME A COLLECTOR! AAAAHHHH!!!!!
RR,
My condolences. To Mrs. RidgeRunner too.
My problem is not that I am a collector per say, I just can’t seem to let go of the ones I don’t shoot much.
David H.
Thank you David. Mrs. RidgeRunner thanks you also.
RR,
That bottom one looks very familiar. Please fill us in on how you acquired that one.
I assume that the top one is the 1906 BSA (?) that you mention from time to time.
I must admit,… something like that would be fun to shoot,.. assuming that they work good.
Chris,
The top one is indeed my 1906 BSA. The bottom one should look very familiar as BB just did a blog on that very one. These air rifles do indeed work very nicely. You need to realize that these are made of machined steel and walnut. You have to truly abuse these things to wear them out. No, they are not power houses, but they were never meant to be. At this time in history most air rifles and pistols were meant for target shooting and competition.
In their time these air rifles were not cheap. These air rifles were the equivalent of the modern FWB, Steyr, etc. Olympic air rifles. The average working man could not afford to buy one of these. A group of people would get together and form a shooting club and pool their money and buy one or two. Even today it would likely cost a couple grand to build one to these specs.
These things are awesome!
RR,
Well,.. Congratulation’s are in order! 🙂 X3 Very nice. I do appreciate finely made items and do have an affinity for things made from days past.
Perhaps I should consider an alternative to the tried and proven methodology of the “Ridge Runners Home For Wayward Airguns”,…??? Just not sure what I might call it though. 😉
I am happy for ya’ bud! 🙂 X10,….. Chris
Chris,
Well, there is one less bed available at “The Home” now. I do have one up for adoption though, so I might have another bed should another of these beauties comes along. Maybe I can talk BB out of his Webley. 😉
Off topic, but took the Gamo out this evening and the score now is chipmunks-0, GrandpaDan-1. Head shot, open sights at 12 yards, Gamo Hunter pellet, nominally 15.43 gr.
I still have not tried out a range of pellets to find which the Gamo likes best. Next to mount and sight in he scope. Then on to pellet trials
Thanks B.B. and all those who have offered suggestions and encouragement. I was staring at a dead end until I found this community. There are solutions and even a diamond in the *rough* can become an accurate shooter.
GrandpaDan
Well done. So it is chipmunks-0, GrandpaDan-1, sparrows-0, Geo791-0, as far as I am concerned. That leads to the questions, how many sparrows are worth a chipmunk? Do the vermin earn points if a rifle is grabbed? if a shot is missed? if GrandpaDan or Geo971 are hospitalized in frustration?
Sean
I am not allowed to shoot chippies. My wife feeds them sunflower seed. Now house sparrows are another story. I would say that sparrows are much more difficult to shoot than chippies. If I see a gopher out in the yard I will eliminate him if my wife isn’t home but I leave the chippies alone. We have several squirrels who raid my bird feeders but I don’t shoot them either. I just play games with them deterring them from the feeders. I brush STP on the shepard’s hook and laugh when they jump on it and slide down. Sparrows and starlings are my main targets. I have missed several sparrows with my Crosman Nitro Venom since sending B.B. my RWS 34.
So the sparrows are a few points up on you George, wait till they suffer the might of the Diana with a new pellet and a new hold.
So the nickname for a chipmunk is a chippie? That is exactly what Aussies would call it. We aren’t really happy with a word without an eeee sound on the end.
You don’t like sheilas?
The word “sheilas” has dropped out of use. I’m fond of ladies though 🙂
Geo
Did you get your 34 back from BB yet?
And there is something I think I forget to mention about the bird pest shooting. First I think I said it before. But sparrows and starlings are my major pest targets.
And the other thing is something about sighting. Do you know that if you sight a gun in at a given distance be it bench resting or off hand shooting. If you shoot at a different angle then what you sighted in. Be it a up hill shot or a down hill shot. Your pellet will impact higher at that same sight in distance.
To put it in your and my pesting scenario. If we sight in at say 35 yards with the target straight and level from where we are shooting from. Then we try to shoot a sparrow out in a tree about 15′ above our 35 yard sighting target. We will shoot right over the top of the sparrow. We would need to aim at the sparrows feet to hit it in the head. Or maybe even lower.
Same applies if we are say up on a porch or say a deck 15′ up and we shoot down at our 35 yard target that we sighted or gun in from straight and level. Again we will hit high on the target. And yes I know you would think you would shoot low. But nope you will still hit high.
That’s when one of those laser range finder come in handy. And the ones for bow and arrow shooters are real nice for air gun use. They will compensate the angle you will be shooting at and give you the shorter distance from the angle involved.
I know when I was a young’n I sure would do some missing till my dad showed me that. And then think about what happens when you shoot at different distances and different angles. You’ll be surprised how easy it is to miss.
And that’s why bench resting or feild target shooting from a same shooting height and target height is alot different than being out in the woods and such when the target can be at any given height or distance.
Anyway just thought I would mention that. Back to shoot’n for me. 🙂
GF1,
Good point. My understanding of the phenomena is that the pellet is (not over the ground) for as long as distance. Thus, gravity has less time to make an influence on the projectile.
Draw 3 lines of (equal) lengths, all starting from the (same) point. /, \ (45 degrees) and -. Now measure across the (bottom) of the paper to the (end) of the lines. The / and \ will have been over ground for less time,.. all else being equal.
I did not know about the archery range finders being better for shooting up or down hill. I know that high end range finders factor in elevation,.. but I did not know that cheaper ones did.
Chris U
Dog gone it now you reminded me about that trigonometry stuff we talked about with the scope angle set up last weekend. 😉
But yep on what you said and yep the bow and arrow range finder are fairly reasonable.
Me and Buldawg was talking about this subject some time back and if I remember right he ended up getting one for bow and arrows. But it is surprising how much it changes what scope reticle hold you need for a given distance if you shoot up in a tree verses flat and level.
Once you know your holds for certian distances then you can apply that hold for what distance the range finder says when you point it up in that tree or say down a hill by a log or such. It will help you make your shots count.
So even if you have the most accurate air gun. You got to know where to put the sights on the target. Again very easy to miss if you ain’t got your reticle hold right.
I do not have a range finder so my range finding is best guess. Many of those small critters do not sit still long enough to check range anyway. I have a general rule of aim that works pretty well. If the target is a level shot, aim for the center of your kill zone. If the target is up in a tree then underline the aim point with your cross hair. Like a 6 oclock aim to put it in the black.
Gopher
It is always best to aim under if your shooting up in a tree or down a hill for sure.
Chris
Simple trig problem. If the target is at a 45º angle the distance on the ground is .707 times the distance at the angle. The Cosine of a 45º angle is .70711. At distances of 15 to 25 yards I wouldn’t think the POI would change that much. Maybe someone has tested to see but it would be different for different FPS speeds too.
GF1
I have always known that when shooting down hill, the POA should be lower because the bullet will go high. I never thought too much about shooting upward though, like up in the branches of a tree. I don’t know why the pellet would go high in that case. Gravity is still pulling the pellet downward. Maybe because of the angle, gravity does not have as much effect on the pellet thus the POI would be higher? For me, my bluebird nesting boxes are pretty level from where I shoot so not a factor in that case. When I shoot out front at sparrows on my feeders, again it’s pretty close to the same height as I am shooting from. At shorter distances I wouldn’t think you have to compensate very much for up and down. Down hill would be easy to verify. Up in a tree, no so much. I learned about shooting my shotgun with slugs down hill when deer hunting at a younger age. I don’t deer hunt anymore…too much work if you shoot one 🙂
Geo
Don’t only think about gravity. Think about distance. That’s what changes the results too. And that’s talking scopes. A open sight does not show the difference in hold as much as a scope. So yes with open sights you will probably make your shot land on target easier than a scope gun when shooting up hill, down hill or at different distances.
And believe it or not. Up in a tree hold is the same as down a hill hold at that distance with a scope. Yes angle plays a big part in it. You have a shorter distance to shoot up or down than straight and level.
I know it’s hard to see. But if you follow the arch from high to level to low. Level is the farthest away.
Geo
Here check this out. It may help.
I would love to see a test of this, like the coriolis test. You would have to think that at a certain range, gravity making longer time of flight in upward shots would separate the impact point from gravity quickened downward shots.
Sean
It does make a difference at distance.
And yes I have done this. And with air guns at from 15 yards to 50 yards. Actually a little farther with the .25 caliber pcp guns.
I put targets at different distances straight and level from the gun and elevated and desending.
Plain and simple you need to hold under if shooting up and hold under also when shooting a down hill shot.
But as the distance increases or decreases from your sight in distance you need more hold under compensation for the angled shots than a level shot.
GF1
I see that the distance is shorter but how much does that really effect the POI? According to the Chairgun software if the rifle is shooting RWS Superdomes 14.5gr at 700 fps and the scope is zeroed at 26 yards the point blank range is 9.0 yards to 32 yards with a 1″ kill zone.
So based on that would the POA still have to be lower at say 15-20 yards shooting upwards towards the top of a tree?
Geo
I was one of the people pushing Chairgun as a sighting estimating tool. I know how Chairgun works real well.
And here is the question. How much tolerance do you have to hit or miss at a given angle?
Chairgun gives you a estimated kill zone at a horizontal plane that you input.
All I got to say is put a target out at different distances straight and level. Then put targets 5′ above your straight and level targets at those same distances and shoot at them and see what happens to your poi.
Like I sad many times in the past. Get out and shoot at some paper and see what happens.
And yep I do know what you mean with the info you just gave. But putting it on paper is what counts.
Geo,
It sounds as if you have Chairgun. If so, look at the upper left of the input boxes and see “incline”. Do a 0 degree setting and then do a 45 setting. You will see the difference show up. Or use the +/- settings to watch it change as the # goes up 1 degree at a time.
At 50 yards, the .25 hits 1.2″ low at 50 on level ground. The same settings show 1″ high with a 45 degree incline. Note also that there is no choice to choose uphill or downhill. That is because it is the same for both.
Chris U
Yep you got it.
Geo
Here I should not of drawn the curve on the first picture.
Here is the right way. The horizontal sight in line is the longest. The angled lines are the shortest. That’s why you need to aim under on angled shots compared to level horizontal sight in. Here this is a better example.
GF1
Look at your drawing again. Those two angled lines are longer than the level line. I think you have to make the angled lines the same length as the level line and then drop a vertical line down. I think you were on the right track when you drew the arc in the above picture. You just needed to swing the arc to it is tangent to the sight in distance line. This is making my head hurt!
Geo
Nope. Get you a machinist scale out. Both angled lines are shorter than the horizontal sight in line. Promise you that. I measured them all.
And now since you mentioned that on the next step. When you do start looking for formulas or distance to angle references you will find that most angles are only 2-8 yards shorter than the level shot.
So knowing that you can kind of get a angle to distance to compensate for your shot. Kind of like that kill zone we look for with Chairgun. Kind of a average hold under from what your normal hold is at that given range.
I know it all sounds confusing. But seriously try some targets at different distances straight and level . Well asuch as possible. Then have the elevated targets out at those distances.
That will tell you the truth about what holds you need. Seriously. That’s the only way.
GF1
Sorry but the drawing shows two right triangles and the hypotenuse is mathematically always longer than either of the two sides. Maybe you meant the “sight in distance” to be beyond the arrow you have drawn at the very end of the line?
Geo
Ok caught it now. Yes I was showing the horizontal line as the sight in line.
Not the arrow showing sight in distance. I should of pointed a arrow at the end of the line also saying that was sight in distance.
Geo
And yep your right. The first drawing probably does represent what I was trying to say better.
The higher you bring the angle up and continue the arch the shorter that line will become. And likewise for the line underneath representing shooting down.
Geo
Thinking about it more the first drawing does not represent what we are talking about either.
If a sparrow is on the ground 25 yards out and another up in a tree at 25 yards. They are still at 25 yards. The sparrow would not follow the arch and move in closer. It will still be sitting at 25 yards up in the tree.
Like Chris and Twotalon said below. Gravity.
GF 1,
I interpret your drawing as a isosceles triangle with a vertex angle of < 60 degrees by just eyeballing it. Lets call it 55 degrees, which is then bisected into two right triangles. There appear to be three aiming points on a verticle plane, one high, one on a horizontal plane and one low with the elevation/depression being +/- 27.5 degrees. If side b (the horizontal line) of the right triangle is equal to 900" (75') and angle A is 27.5 degrees, then side c (the hypotenuse) will be 1014.644" (84' 6.644"). Maybe my math is wrong, It was the last time and Chris USA picked up on it, check it out.
Bugbuster
Bugbuster
Read my reply to Geo above your comment.
I miss labeled the sight in line distance.
And yes Chris gave a good example above with Chairgun using a .25 caliber and 50 yards shooting level and at a angle. Here I’ll paste it here so you don’t got to look.
“It sounds as if you have Chairgun. If so, look at the upper left of the input boxes and see “incline”. Do a 0 degree setting and then do a 45 setting. You will see the difference show up. Or use the +/- settings to watch it change as the # goes up 1 degree at a time.
At 50 yards, the .25 hits 1.2″ low at 50 on level ground. The same settings show 1″ high with a 45 degree incline. Note also that there is no choice to choose uphill or downhill. That is because it is the same for both.”
GF1,
Please read my response to Geo791 posted at 8:21 this morning.
Bugbuster
Bugbuster
You are correct. I tried to tell GF1 that his drawing was not correct. At first he was sure that it was but has since said that he understood our math and that he meant for the sight in distance to be at the end of the line instead of where the arrow is pointed at the vertical line. So in that case the level line would become the hypotenuse and you would draw a line perpendicular to the elevated line. Then the angled line would be shorter. I’m sure this is how GF1 meant to picture it.
What still puzzles me a little is that if the sight in distance is 25 yards and then I shoot upwards and the distance is actually 25 yards to the target, why would the POI be higher than the POA? 25 yards is 25 yards whether it is up down or sideways. The only variable I can see is the time that gravity has to affect the trajectory.
Geo,
That last sentence is all there is to it.
Geo
High school math class …… VECTORS !
When shooting at an elevated angle, gravity does not pull down on the projectile at 90 degrees . The resulting force down from the line of trajectory is less. It shoots higher .
tt
TT
I was hoping someone could explain it better.
TT,
….”gravity does not pull down on the projectile at 90 degrees .” That is a bit of a different “spin” on the time/over ground thinking. I had not considered the degrees in relationship to the pull. Thank you for that. Sorry to say,… I could have done a tad bit better back in my high school days.
TT
Yes, completely understand your statement and agree. It just seems that with airguns the ranges are so short that the affect of gravity on a pellet would be fractions of an inch and not change the POI much.
When I started shooting my pellet gun with a scope sighted in for 25 yards, I would get confused sometimes when shooting at sparrows at 10-15 yards and couldn’t remember if I was to aim higher, or lower. It’s counter intuitive because the answer is I need to aim higher for shorter distances. At 10 yards the POI would be .42″ low. At 15 yards the POI would only be .05″ low.
Geo
I have to agree with Chris also.
I think it’s all about gravity.
But all and all. Try you a target out at 25 yards as close to the ground as possible. Shoot just a 5 shot group at it.
Then take another target and put it 5 foot up in the air at the same distance and shoot a 5 shot group and see what happens.
But make sure you use the same aim point on both targets. Also make sure those targets are (not) at the same level as to what level you sighted your gun in at. And it don’t really matter what sight in distance you chose. Just as long as it ain’t at the same angle as your two targets you will shoot at.
I hope you try it. I want to see what you think.
GF1
I think I had better just learn to shoot my RWS 34 at the level range first. Then maybe experiment with different angles. Never thought much about the POI changing with acute angle though.
Geo
I say just start shooting.
Who knows maybe you will shoot a better group on a elevated shot verses a level shot.
😉
And notice the wink. Kind of joking. But on the other hand who knows. Maybe true.
The main thing is shoot your gun as much as possible and see how it shoots in different situations. Remember like we say. Those sparrows sure don’t try to make the shot easy for us. I don’t see it no other way put to practice with targets at a bunch of different places from in at 10 yards out to 50 yards or how ever far you can go
I right now have 11 spinners set up in my yard at different distances and locations. And my yard is level for about 15 yards. Then slopes down at about 15° out to about 25 yards then stays level to about 50 yards then gradually follows another 15° angle out to about 70 yards then it goes up a hill at 30° to about a 130 yards and so on.
So I have all kinds of distances and levels to shoot at. But you know when I shoot out at the longer distances and in front of me or anywhere inbetween from left or right. Even when I use my range finder. I still more or less have to take a shot at a mildot hold over and see where the shot lands.
So my best advise is to have targets set up in different places and heights and shoot and record your hold over or hold under for that location. You got to shoot and see where the pellet lands is really only the true way to know.
GF1
Your advice is sound. I just don’t show everyday like many of the folks on this blog. Now that nesting season is almost over I am not motivated very much to go out and shoot paper. I am still getting a few sparrows raiding my bird feeders but that’s about it now. I would guess that the effective range for my RWS 34 would be 35 yards max.
Geo
Again. The only advise I can give is get out there and shoot and pay attention to what you see happen.
And big thing right now for you. Make notes.
Geo791,
I was merely pointing out that, mathematically, the diagram did not support the written explanation, as you had also. That is why I read and reread my posts, check and recheck my figures, especially when math is involved before I submit them. Unfortunately, I still make mistakes from time to time. The old mind is not as sharp as it used to be.
Yes, the primary factor here is the effect of gravity, as you and several others had correctly surmised.
It is also important to choose the best pellet for your rifle. First and foremost would be acceptable accuracy (group size) at the intended maximum range you will be shooting at and then picking the pellet with the highest BC which meets this criteria.
Bugbuster
Bugbuster
“The old mind is not as sharp as it used to be”. I think many of us posting here are in the same boat 🙂 You and I and a few others seem to think that gravity is the major thing effecting the POI when shooting uphill or downhill, but still, others believe that horizontal distance (TBR) is the major factor. I’m not sure what the correct answer is but GF1 has done actual testing by shooting uphill and downhill and he says the POI will always be higher…by how much, that is the question that only experimentation can determine. Gee, another variable to add to the list of shooting break barrels accurately.
Bugbuster
Just letting you know I seen your post. Thanks.
The problem of shooting uphill or downhill was tackled by the blog some time ago. The answer is indeed vectors, but what does that mean? One answer is that the motion of a pellet can be described as the sum two vectors, vertical and horizontal, which act INDEPENDENTLY of each other. If you drop a ball straight down, and you throw it horizontally as far as you can, it will hit the ground at the same time under the force of gravity (even if the landing spot is different). What this means for shooting on slopes is that your elevation holdover should be exactly the same as the horizontal distance to the target whether it is higher or lower. If you are holding dead center on a level at 100 yards, then if that target is up on a mountain slope that makes 30 degrees with level ground but is 100 yards horizontal distance from you, then you will still hold dead center. The same thing if you are shooting downhill. Elevation holdover is determined entirely by the horizontal distance from you to the target.
Matt61
Matt61
Nope. Wrong.
A shot that is above horizontal or a shot that is below horizontal at the same horizontal distance will need hold under compared to the level shot at the same distance.
Matt61,
I hold a lot of value in anything that you say as you are usually very well researched on any topic that you write about. In this case, I think that you are right. Being somewhat math deficient, I just use a ruler with a mm scale.
Drawing a horizontal 100mm line, then drawing a 100mm line at approx. a 45 degree angle, from the same start point,.. the hold over would be less. To your point of stressing the horizontal plain, if you take a new line, from the same start point and draw it to the horizontal end point of the horizontal line,… the new line is now 112mm. You are still shooting down/up hill, but you are shooting over a longer distance (but still the same horizontal distance). The same holdover/under/aim may well indeed be required.
Chairgun could confirm this, but I do not have the time this AM as the work week has started. I suspect that you will look further into this and do hope that you comment further. If I get the time, I will try to confirm this with Chairgun.
Chris
Chris
Oh, to answer you question…B.B. emailed me today and said he will ship my rifle back to me next week. Then the work begins….
Geo
Ok good. Was wondering.
Geo
Here.This does a little better job explaining than I can.
http://www.rifleshootermag.com/network-topics/tips-tactics-network/hitting-a-high-or-low-angle-shot/
GF1
Thanks for that link. I went there and studied the article. Very interesting, though it is mainly speaking about high powered rifles at long range distances. I didn’t quite get how they arrived at the 13″ above the crosshairs in the example of the guy shooting downward at 80º at a mountain goat. The actual range was 450 yards and the TBR was 76 yards. The rifle was sighted in for 200 yards and at 76 yards the POI would be 1.3″ high. They said that gravity wouldn’t have much effect on the bullet and that was the reason it would go high. I just wondered how they arrived at that number of 13″….quite interesting.
It would seem that with airguns at short ranges, the POI would change that much…maybe fractions of an inch?
Geo
To me air guns would see the effect more.
The lesser velocity they shoot at compared to a firearm is why I believe it effects a air gun more.
A firearm has a flatter trajectory from the higher velocity and the bullet don’t slow down as quick as a pellet does.
Let me know what you think.
GF1
You are probably correct in that thinking. I don’t have any empirical data to prove one way or the other. Maybe someone has done some testing with elevations and the effect of the POI of pellets. What you say does make sense though.
Geo
Chairgun will give you an answer that is close enough . EXCEPT …. what happens when you hold your springer differently .
Just had to be a catch, didn’t there ?
tt
Geo
I have with air guns. Here’s what I posted to Sean above.
“Sean
It does make a difference at distance.
And yes I have done this. And with air guns at from 15 yards to 50 yards. Actually a little farther with the .25 caliber pcp guns.
I put targets at different distances straight and level from the gun and elevated and desending.
Plain and simple you need to hold under if shooting up and hold under also when shooting a down hill shot.
But as the distance increases or decreases from your sight in distance you need more hold under compensation for the angled shots than a level shot.”
So Geo. Yes I tested it some time back.
Again. Get out and try it for yourself. You will see what happens. Once you see it it will help you with those sparrow pests. Trust me. The paper won’t lie.
Sean,
I would give the chipmunks the lead on points. The chippies are far more challenging in that they are lightening fast and rarely pause. At least a sparrow will pause to feed and stay in one general, non-obstructed area. The chippies blend into the leafy, brown forest floor as well. Chippies = 3 points, Sparrows = 1 point,.. IMO.
Last year in the Fall, on a dry day and 99% of the leaves were down on the wood’s floor,…. I kept “seeing???” the leaves moving, but they were moving in “rows”. I was shooting the M-rod at 70 yards and had a pretty good field of view of the woods. I thought that I was starting to “see things”. 🙁 Turns out that it was just the chippies running (under) the leaves. I guess they figured it was smart to keep out of sight when running across my shooting lane?
Grandpa Dan,
Very nice. Thanks for the update. Any progression in the Maximus/hand pump saga?
Chris
Michael—The Chinese copies are junk. So why did I buy one? Because it had a wonderful ,adjustable, removable
target rear sight. I put it on my Crosman 2300. I paid only $05— for the pistol. I have seen the same rear sight for sale at a much higher price. One mans junk is another man,s treasure.——Ed
I recall a pal of mine had one SOMEWHAT like this circa 1974. It looked like a Luger in a way, like this one, a springer. Caliber was .117. No walnut or wood handgrips. All black. Velocity was… well… low. Itd stick into drywall good but was only a center in other things. If I had to guess… it was… meh… 300 fps?
Fun as hell though at the age of 12. We shot the hell out of everything.
I love the walnut handgrips on this Diana though. that’s a classy touch.
Dave
Dave,
Welcome to the blog.
Your friend probably had a Haenel model 28. Did it look like this one?
/blog/2007/04/blast-from-the-past-the-haenel-model-28-pellet-pistol/
B.B.
I’ve been making my own spatter type targets (Shoot N -C) using the colored plastic bags our newspapers come in. First cutting them into appropriate sizes while watching tv. Then using spray adhesive I glue them to sheets of construction paper, followed by spray painting them with flat black spray paint. They work very well providing easy to see shot placement, very affordable, and quick to make. I have made around thirty 9 by 11 targets with 5 aiming points each for about 8.00 $
Coduece,
So,.. my understanding is that when the pellet hits the painted plastic, it “flakes” off some of the surrounding paint,.. thus leaving the brighter colored plastic showing around the hole?
I make my targets too using corrugated box cardboard. I prefer a lighter colored background and these are white. I use various washers/round objects and trace around them with a marker.
Another tip is to go to Walmart or an office supply store and pick up some 3/4″ round yard sale stickers which are in 3 neon colors. Another sticker that works well is ring binder reinforcement stickers which also come in 4 neon colors.
For paper I use a quality graph paper which in nice for any lines/layout/positioning of bulls. I (always) use a strip of duct tape on the (back) of the paper. The holes stay very clean, even with domes.
For a target holder I use electric fence poles, (mine are black, 4′ tall, I-beam type shaft, plastic, metal spike w/step). They have clips built in and that is what I attach the cardboard backers/targets with. The end result is a bit like a flag on a flag pole.
Thanks for the tip about yard sale stickers. I’m using a modified wreath stand for a target holder. Yes, when the pellet strikes the target it appears the plastics stretches, flaking off some of the paint.
Coduece,
I too use the 3/4″ yard sale stickers, but I usually take a Sharpie and color them black before I peel them off. I can see them better with open sights that way.
RR,
Yes, the type of sighting does matter in what to do with the stickers. The 499 (w/peepers) indoors prefers the ring binder stickers colored black, on a light background. For outdoor, or indoor long range,.. tracing around the neon stickers works well.
Another target tip is to size the bull to (exactly) what you “need” at a (given) yardage and magnification. As you know, that allows you to “frame” the bull within the mil-dot or 1/2 mildot lines.
I have never really understood the “standard” of using black for bullseye targets. In some cases, that is fine. In others, something else makes better sense.
Chris,
For scopes I use an X. Aim small, miss small. Also you will notice that even though you may shoot out the center point, the arms will line up in each quadrant and point to the center.
RR
That is a very good aiming tip. I find myself using my up and down and side to side mildots to get a object centered on my reticle.
For example when you have a paddle spinner. I get the mildots lined up on the outer diameter of the paddle. I don’t look at the center reticle (+).
Plus you can check the center of the reticle on the target to your mildots on the outside diameter of the target. Basically just more ways to double check your aim point.
Thanks for the tip, as well as the photo of your fantastic collection. How they were able to craft these works of art using very basic machines is a testament to their abilities, abilities and knowledge that are being swept away by technology.
I had a very similar air pistol as a kid in early 1960’s Spain. I would imagine it was a Spanish knock off by El Gamo or another local gun maker. It was pretty weak but shot well at short distances.
GladesGuy,
Welcome to the blog.
B.B.
Thanks BB. I have been reading your blog for some time and learning quite a bit from your expertise! I hunted small game extensively in my teens and pre-teens with springer air rifles before moving on to firearms. Now as an old codger, I am rediscovering the joy of air rifles and pistols mostly for target shooting. I always consult your blog for information. I am amazed how much you know on the subject! Amazing!
Got bored shooting today. Can you believe that. 🙂
But tryed something different.
This is my Benjamin Wild Fire with my old Tasco red dot on it. I decided to try my I scope phone adapter on it. I shot at a hot well shaken feral can out at about 25 yards and using the cheapy Daisy wadcutters. And remember this gun is converted to a 1077 12 gram gun.
Here’s the short video. Its in slow motion. And then I took a picture of the can afterwards. I painted it white so I wouldn’t get the other feral cans in a uproar. Here it is with our new picture posting option. I hope I ain’t abusing the system. Oh and I’ll see if I can make a short video looking through the phone adapter and get some rapid fire action shots as it looks if you were looking through the red dot. I don’t know how well it will work out so don’t know if I’ll be able to post that today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJhsdlK6a0M
Oh and that was with my phone on 4 magnification. That’s the highest it will go. And that was standing unsupported shooting.
GF1,
It is amazing what boredom will do for your creativity.
RR
I know. I got to keep myself excited some how. 🙂
But here’s two more short video’s of some rapid fire. One video you can see the pellet flying and one you can’t. It was me positioning myself a little different to the light.
And I do apologise for the not good focusing. On the red dot there is not a lot enough area where the adapter gos on to slide in or out to get the camera phone focused to the red dot lens you look through. But I got a idea to fix that too with a peice if PVC pipe. I’m going to make a sliding extension. Then I should be able to get a clear focused video.
Anyway here is my lousy video’s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCU9-O2dSas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsnBKLuFKmk
Speaking of using yard sale dots for targets, here is one with my new air rifle. It is ten shots at ten yards shooting Air Arms Falcons. I think it will do better once I figure out how to keep the rear sight blade from wiggling around.
I saw a few posts regarding the making of targets. This is my procedure to make targets. I went to this web site
http://www.airgunsmith.com/target/freetargets6.htm where you can print out targets for free. I only like the black 1/2″ dot on 1/2″ grids and one with twenty 1/2″ dots on 1/2″ grids. Then I scanned them into my computer and saved them so I can easily print out a batch of targets whenever I like. I also created a custom footer with shooting info and then used scissors to tape to my targets and then rescanned them for a finished target. I could not find a target with 1″ dot so I use MS Paint and created a black 1″ dot and then taped that to a target and then scanned that one and saved it. Now I have three or four targets saved in a folder on my computer. When I want to go out and shoot I just print out five or six for a session.
Now for the target holder. I was doing some trash pickup along my road and I found a realtor’s sign lying in the ditch. I was thinking of making one from wood when I saw that and though, gee that would make an excellent target holder. I brought it home and painted the sign black. Then I screwed a spring type paper clip in four places to hold my targets. The nice thing about the sign frame is that it’s all metal with pointed legs. I just measure my distance and push it into the ground with my foot on the cross piece. This works wonderfully. I have shot the center completely out with a hole in it about 8″ in diameter but it still holds the targets just fine. I could make a new piece for it but it’s not necessary as long as it hold the clips and targets. It’s easily moved to various distances and just the right height too. So if you can find one of these it makes an excellent target holder.
Geo,
Nice idea. I thought of the same thing, but could not get my hands on any realtor signs. Big box home improvement stores as well as even Walmart have a variety of yard sale sign holders.
Nice picture. It looks to have some serious use! Nice backdrop for your range too,.. with the trees and all. From what I gathered, you do not use a cardboard backer to your paper. That,.. along with duct tape on the backside of the paper will make for some cleaner holes.
Looking forward to you getting your Diana back. From what you have described, once you get it benched and see what you can do with it,… it sounds as if offhand/propped and standing practice is in order. (Unless), you can talk the wife into letting you set up a bench in the middle of the house so that you can shoot out the patio door. 😉
Chris
I believe the realtor agents are required to buy their own signs from the broker. You could possibly buy a sign from one of the agents. It really makes an ideal target holder. I’m sure the realtor signs are much heaver duty material too. The sign material appears to be like a masonite but harder. The pellets just drive right though it. I was looking at how the material was attached to the frame in case I wanted to replace it with a new piece of 1/4″ hardboard or OSB. There are little nubs on the frame and the material will just slide up and out very easily. The frame work on the sign is like 1/8″ x 1″ angle so it’s very strong and stiff. It doesn’t flex at all when I push it into the ground.
Some .25 M-rod and .22 Maximus data for anyone interested,…
Just back in. First up was the M-rod. I decided to block the vents in the front shroud support and see what would happen. 70 yards,.. 1 15/16″, 2 3/8″, 1 1/2″ ,….and,….. 9/16″ !!!! All 8 shots. Call it what you will,.. but definitely worth exploring the 100 yard marker. The only thing I played with, besides the venting, was the play in the bi-pod and whether to push or pull the play. The above were push, push, pull and push,…. so go figure. 🙁 I will say,… it did get considerably louder. ( I should say, all of the baffles have been removed except for one. The spring is still there. The empty space was filled with 5 oz.’s of bronze bearing sleeves. Very nice for muzzle jump compensation! )
As for the Maximus, 30 yards, all 10 shots, front rested, rear shouldered/no rest,… 5/8″. Next was standing and rested/supported/held off the corner of a shed,… 1 3/8″. Next was off hand,… 5 1/4″. Needless to say,… my standing and off hand needs some SERIOUS work. 🙁 I felt lucky to hit the backer cardboard,… let alone even get anywhere close to a bullseye. 🙂 It was not pretty folks.
Chris U
That scope sure moves around a lot more in supported doesn’t it. 😉
And since we been talking the last few days about shooting up hill or down hill and sight in distance at straight and level.
What do yo have your guns sighted at distance wise and at what level? I do believe you said your shooting area goes up hill and that’s where you do your long r range shooting you just mentioned.
What kind of mildot hold do you think you would need if you went to a shooting range and shot at 70 and a 100 yards. Would you hit low or high if you used your current holds for 70 and a 100 yards?
GF1,
Not sure really. My 100 yard range is flat to 32 yards. From there, it may rise steadily 5-6′ out to the 100 yard marker. I would guess that I would need more hold over. As for sighting in distance, I used Chairgun and plugged in all of the pertinent #’s and then just adjusted them until the pellet was in the 1″ kill zone the longest. Whatever that was, that is what I used.
One correction/addition on the above testing,… the first 2 groups on the M-rod were with the JSB 25.39’s and the 2nd. two groups were with the JSB 33.95’s.
Chris U
Well I don’t know what you sighted at. But let’s just say it was between 35 and 50 yards. And that would mean you were just a few degrees up from level according to what you said your shooting range does.
And your 100 yard target is elevated somewhere around 5 or so feet.
So the answer is yes. If you used your same hold that you use now shooting up hill and then shoot straight and level. You would hit low. So yes more hold over would be needed.
So if you made a shot you wanted to count you would probably miss if you shoot at a different height low or high compared to what you now hold at. Then throw in a different distance and see what happens.
Next question. How low do you think you would hit at the range shooting with the same up hill hold at 100 yards.
GF1,
There is no “next question”,… 😉 Chill time, not think time. Yes, all of my sight in’s are under 50. The M-rod might be 47,.. without checking notes. As for the target supports,… 4′ electric fence poles that I have mentioned before. At the 100 yard marker,.. I use some low yard sale sign holders that are low to the ground. At about 130, the hill crest and I figure it is (safer) to be lower at that point.
I am (very) surprised that you did not pick up on me blocking the front shroud support vent holes! You slipping there Ol’ Man,… or what???? 😉
Chris U
I read about you blocking the air relief holes in the shroud support. But have to say I got excited about your off hand unsupported shooting. 🙂
But can’t stop now. What would other people that are reading right now. They might want to know how to aim right for different elevation shots.
You gave the answer earlier today. Plug in the numbers to Chairgun. Do the graph that shows the kill zone an such for different distances with sight in and such. Just change the inline angle and see what hold you use now on the graph at your up hill angle then input 0° as if you were at the shooting range. See what the graph now says in drop.
You know you can input what reticle you have and it will give you a distance in yards of what hold you need next to the mildot on the reticle.
But again. It’s just a estimate rather than guessing.
GF1,
Yup,.. you have to shoot,.. (to know). No thoughts on the vent blocking? Have you ever tried it? I,.. like you,.. drilled out the vents,.. and added weights. Maybe that whole silencing/noise reduction bit might have a down-side?
Chris U
Like you always say. Can’t go off of one days data.
I think you need more shooting to see if it repeats the results.
But yep the air pressure behind the pellet when it leaves the barrel has to play some kind of part as to how it affects the pellet.
And again at some point in a given situation it could all work great till you fall out of that perimeter.
So again as it goes. Test, test, test. 🙂
GF1,
I have no problem with that! Just as long as I have something to test,… otherwise, I tend to get a bit on the bored side. I do believe,… the next time out I will “warm up” at the 70 and then after a few groups,.. give the 100 a few tries.
And yes,.. I am a (firm) believer in (repeated) testing over (several sessions) to see if (repeatability) is achievable.
Chris U
Yep. But I do hope you try to keep doing the off hand shooting.
If you do you will see how much better you will be bench resting.
Remember some years back how I told you to shoot at longer distances bench resting. And then see what happens shooting in at the closer distances you were use to.
If I remember right shooting in closer became a peice of cake. 🙂
Chris
I shoot those JSB’s. At my sight in range of 35 yards the heavier ones group about 5/8 to3/4″ lower than the 25.39’s.
Gopher
Gopher,
Both are good. I have had mixed results with both. If wind is a factor, the 33.95’s are better. Yup on the drop. I use 1 mil at 70 with the heavier pellet and 1/2 mil with the lighter. Most of any variance is me,… I am sure. You know how it goes!,… good day’s and bad day’s. 😉
And my phone corrected again.
Suppose to say…That scope sure moves around a lot more unsupported doesn’t it.
GF1,
On the above,.. And out room,… Yes!,.. The “Grazz Hoppa” does have a “foggy and distant” memory of such advice. I think that the underlying message is to keep pushing past what you “think” that you can do.
As for off-hand,.. I have no excuse with the Maximus. Powerful, light weight, easy to shoulder. Today’s “events” were a bit “harrowing”,… if not downright humbling. Mucho respect for anyone shooting off-hand and unsupported.
Chris U
Just keep doing the off hand shooting.
Just remember the hard situations teach how to deal with the problem. Then the other easier situations you don’t have to think about how to do them. They just fall in place naturally.
I do sometimes wish the harder things don’t happen. But always learn from them you know what I mean.
Hey guys
I will try my hand at explaining the reason that shooting uphill or down uses a different hold than what you would think is needed for that distance and angle. Using GF1 drawing previously in the blog lets see if I simplify the explanation for you all.
If the distance in his drawing for the level plane is 25 yards and your far zero is 25 yards so that you hold dead zero with the crosshairs on a level plane. Then if you have to shoot uphill or downhill it really does not matter what the angle is up or down but just what the level distance to the target is since that would be the hold you need use. In this case it would be a dead zero hold regardless of angle.
The affect of gravity has no bearing on the pellets flight since it is the same force on the pellet regardless of angle or height from the ground or angle its trajectory has in relation to the ground.
The link GF1 put about the rifle shooting at long ranges and angles is a very good example that if you scale it to the ranges we shoot with our air guns should make sense. Just reduce the ranges by a factor of 10 so 100 yards is ten in our usage and 1000 is 100 yards.
An example would be you have your air gun sighted for a far zero of 35 yards so that your point blank ranges will be from 20 to 35 yards using a 1/2″ kill zone. This means that at any yardage between 20 to 35 yards you will hit a 1/2′ kill zone by using a zero hold with your gun. So you are hunting and come up on a bird up in a tree that is 50 feet off the ground. You have a range finder that you use to determine the range to the target. Lets say it does not have the angle compensation feature in it. So how do you determine the hold you need to hit your target.
If you range find pointing the rangefinder at the bird you get 50 yards so that the hold you use to shoot at the bird. Lets say it is 1 mil dot holdover so your crosshairs are above the bird and you shoot using the 1 mi dot hold. The pellet will go over the birds head and you miss your bird by roughly 1 mil dot high. So now lets use the range finder to range to the same tree only pointing at the tree at a level height for the height you will be shooting from say 6 feet above the ground. Now the range finder shows 35 yards not the 50 that you got from ranging to the actual bird. So that means you would use a dead zero hold to hit a target at 35 yards. So you adjust your aim for a dead zero on the bird and shoot again and your bird falls to the ground dead.
What you need to realize is you really don’t need to be concerned with the up or down angles you are shooting at but rather the true level distance you will be shooting at to know which hold is needed to hit the target. The closer to level the angle is say 25 degrees and less are not as critical that you know the exact level distance to the target as the angles over 25 degrees are since the trajectory will not be far enough off to cause a miss on the target as compared to angles over 25 degrees.
I have a rangefinder that has angle compensation in it so it gives me the distance I need to shoot at for the angle my target is at. But I have played with it by pointing at the target to see what yardage it shows and them point at the tree or structure that is at a level plane from my position and the range it shows is always with in a yard or less of the compensated range it shows.
Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion about shooting up or down. It has helped me a good bit when shooting in my field target matches where we have targets at steep up and down angles to shoot in the match.
BD
BD
Yep I think that makes it easier to understand.
Range the object is actually at be it up in a tree or down a hill. Then use that hold for the distance that it ranged out at.
Perfect explanation. Thanks.
GF1
Yes as I said its not as critical for slight up or down angle shots compared to steep angles up or down where there is a greater difference from the true distance versus the level distance.
BD
BD
But the thing is if you don’t realize that happens it will more than likely mean a missed shot the smaller your target is also.
BD76,
Good to hear from you. I did think of you and your field target matches when the topic was being discussed. It is nice to have some input from someone currently using/encountering the uphill/downhill situation.
Chris
GF1
You are correct if you do not know to correct for the angles it will be a missed shot. Especially if its at a greater angle than 25 degrees.
BD
BD
Then throw in weight of the pellet and velocity. Then add in distances.
That 25° turns into 10° of range you gave.
To shoot well you have to shoot at targets at different distances and heights to really know the truth result. Then shoot a gun that uses a different weight pellet and shoots at a different velocity. That gun at 25°angle will be a different hold on the reticle than the faster shooting lighter pellet.
Ballistics is the name of the game also.
GF1
Yea all that is required to be accounted for to hit the target. I was just trying to keep it simple so it coulis be understood.
There are so many variable that we could write a book on learning it all and then applying it to our shooting. But yes chairgun is a great tool but no substitute for actual shooting to learn the gun and pellets it like best and the holds required to be accurate with the gun and ammo used.
It all adds up to either hit or miss your targets.
BD
BD
Yep agree with that 100%.
Chris
It took me awhile to realize this and compensate for it in my matches. The other seasoned shooters had a lot to do with that as well. There are several 50 and 55 yards up and downhill shots that I was missing until I started shooting at my zero hold and would make hits on them.
It seem counterintuitive at first but after you see the targets drop it makes more sense. All part of a learning curve we all go thru.
BD
Well, yesterday at the range, I finally got to try out my scope extender tube that rests against my shooting glasses. Not to worry, ChrisUSA, it worked fine. I think this is a fairly old technology that I read about back in high school, so they’ve worked out the kinks. The rubber is very soft and with its accordion shape, it collapses easily, and caused no problem at all. The goal was to maintain an exact eye relief and remove parallax. With that and my new firm sandbag rest, I was able to make a full and definitive test of the accuracy of my Saiga rifle. Using top of the line Hornady SST ammo, the best I could do was 2.5 inches for five shots at 100 yards. Perhaps I could do better by practicing in that configuration, but I think that pretty much tells the story of the accuracy potential of that gun. I guess the popular wisdom was right all along. I tried shooting offhand at 100 yards and got great sight pictures, but when I checked the scope, most of my shots went below the paper. Maybe the looping trajectory of that gun is more susceptible to change when shifting positions. On the other hand, there was one tantalizing group of 5 shots within 1 inch!? Needless to say, I couldn’t repeat that, but it leaves a spark of hope.
I also had a reckoning with my M1 Garand. My handloads were shooting great. But when I switched to Greek surplus, the gun made a horrible grating and shuddering sound, then it jammed. Did I panic and despair? Not a bit of it. I coolly dialed in a smaller volume in the gas tube and the rifle ran perfectly. So, as Gandalf said about the Balrog, I can truly say that I have thrown down my enemy and crushed him. To a rough approximation, a slower powder works like a heavier charge, at least in the M1. Slower powders need more gas volume and faster powders need less. That’s probably as close as I’ve come to using a pcp. Moving a set screw in the gas tube by .1 inches changes the volume to make the difference between functioning or not. That seems like a tiny amount to me. But perhaps in the world of professional machinists like blog reader, Derrick, who works in thousandths or millionths of an inch, that is a lot. When properly adjusted, the gun shot great. I put four into a half inch at 50 yards, so I have my minute of angle of gun at last. The MOA was quite a big larger at 100 yards which I attribute to my vision and the sights. So after 10 years, the epic battle is over. What kind of tasks take 10 years? A Ph.D. dissertation, a job? I think a celebration is in order. Maybe I’ll get a zombie drink and watch the new Charlize Theron action film.
I also got a chance to try out my re-enactment gear. The temperature was 105. With only my fatigue cap and cartridge belt loaded with M1 clips, I just about died. Had I put on the fatigue jacket, I would have keeled over right away. Truly, they say war is hell. Even the ground felt hot through my jump boots. While trudging along, I got to thinking about a passage from the poem Paradise Lost where John Milton is describing hell after the fallen angels have been thrown into it. As the poem says, “The thunder winged with red lightning has ceased to bellow through the vast and sounding deep.” The group is taking stock, and Lucifer, as the leader takes command and walks around regrouping his army. The ground is compared to the side of Mount Aetna during an eruption when the mountainside falls away, revealing earth that is on fire, and it says that such is the resting place for the foot of Lucifer. This all ran through my mind as a free association. I would imagine that young people on campaign can take the heat better, but how anyone could cope with this is beyond my comprehension.
I got to thinking of whether it would be worse to go soldiering in the intense cold like the Eastern Front or blazing hot temperatures like the desert or the coral atolls of the Pacific. There seems to be an opinion that cold is worse although it’s very subjective. Physiologically, the human body is much better at coping with extreme cold than with heat. In cold, the body can increase its metabolism by shivering to warm up. But in extreme heat, all you can do is sweat which is not nearly as effective in cooling you down as shivering and general activity in warming you up. On the other hand, the final stages of extreme hypothermia are described in terms that are not unpleasant while the last stages of heat and dehydration are supposed to be agonizing. But maybe when you are at the end of your rope, it doesn’t really matter how you got there.
Matt61
Matt61,
As always,.. amazed by your observations. It sounds as if you had a “good day”. On the 105 degree’s,.. I would have to say that the ONLY thing I would want to be wearing is the fatigue cap and cartridge belt! Ok,… admittedly not a pretty picture, but I do admire your determination. 😉
As for celebratory beverage choice?,….. a “Zombie” drink works for me! My Lord Brother!!!,.. you have certainly earned it !!
Chris
OK, had the opportunity to shoot my Millitia air rifle some this afternoon. I tried six different pellets in it at 10 yards. So far the JSB Heavy seems to be the best. Except for one stray, the other nine would hide under a nickel and seven of them made one ragged hole that would hide under a dime. I think the feral soda cans are in big trouble.
RR
So the falcons you pictured above was not the pellet for it.
So when you say the jsb heavys. Are you talking about the jsb 10.34 grain pellets?
If so that gets my attention. I like them in my air guns. High velocity to lower velocity. But isn’t your gun shooting down under 500 fps. If so to me that is great news they work at those velocity’s too.
GF1,
Yes, that’s them. The sights are adjusted all the way down, I am holding at six o’clock and the pellets are grouping in the top of the 3/4″ dot. I should have no problem rolling those buggers out past 25 yards.
RR
Sounds good. You will have to give more updates about it as you go.
Have been thoroughly enjoying this Blog.
This is my first post so I hope it is in the proper location. Please advise if I need to post somewhere else.
Have been rediscovering airguns over the last few years since shooting firearms has become less convenient. Still am an avid firearm enthusiast.
Want to get a 25 cal springer or gas ram to round out my gun cabinet. Looking for a gun that has similar quality standard as a TX200 MkIII, Walther LGV, HW90 or HW30 Urban. I own the aformentioned guns and several others.
The purpose of use for the 25 cal is mainly for enjoyment.
Any suggestions on what models I should start researching? Seems like the HW97 would fit the bill except velocity appears lower than a HW90 or HW80. I get the impression that one has to be careful about a rifle choice when it comes to 25cal.
Thanks
Ginlon,
Welcome to the blog.
I don’t know of any gas spring rifles in .25 caliber that are the quality level you are after. Anyone?
B.B.
Ginlon
Here check this gun out. Pyramyd AIR only has the .177 and .22 caliber version. But there are some there places that carry the .25 caliber model.
/product/diana-56th-target-hunter-air-rifle?m=3303
One of the .25 caliber versions of this gun would be the .25 caliber springer I would get. Matter of fact I’m saving up to get one.
Thanks Gunfun1
Having difficulty fining the gun in 25cal but will keep looking.
Am going to take a hard look at HW80 in 25cal.
Ginlon
I can’t give the link here because they are in competition with Pyramyd AIR. But they are located in Arizona.
Matter of fact thinking about it.
Why don’t Pyramyd AIR offer certain caliber guns in a given model and others do?
Like the .25 Diana I just mentioned and then the Weirauch HW30s in .22 caliber.
Shouldn’t they list all calibers that are made for a paticular gun. It makes you think the other calibers bc are not available.